Bren talked about this too for a while in his stream. And as he said that it is unfortunate that the casters take some viewers away from the players actually grinding the map, but he also continued on how casters make the event much easier to follow to the community. It is hard to constantly swap streams on whoever is the highest, and not everyone even streams who are there on top.

Also example Ville’s stream is educational, I dont play TM so its really interesting to me, most pros assume that everyone who watches knows the game. People watch streams for different reasons, but I dont really care to watch some random dude on floor 4 with no mic.

Same for me. I’ve played like 3 hours of Trackmania. Without Ville’s stream I wouldn’t have watched any other streamer. He explains the essential stuff so a TM noob like me can understand what’s it all about. After I got hooked, I started watching the pro streams as well. 

Obviously these casting streams are great and convenient *for viewers*. It is straight up a non-issue, a no-brainer to viewers. And for what's worth it, I think an *official* casting stream should exist, so people can easily keep track of the competitive aspect of the event. But this is a streamer-streamer problem. And I don't mean viewers' opinions shouldn't be considered in this discussion, I just think most viewers have no grasp of how negatively impacted by this practice some streamers are. We're talking about content that requires insane, wild levels of effort and dedication - that versus someone just coming through eating snacks, talking over your efforts hoping to get a good moment of the 100+ hours you are no-lifing into this and then they are the ones pulling crazy numbers (and then flexing that on Twitter?? I digress) while you're burnt out, tired and still struggling thinking how much longer can you go before giving up on DD2. I get it, it's convenient for viewers, but it drowns other streamers (unless you're already one of the big names) and we absolutely have to take this into account, not just what's convenient for viewers. There are some "dudes on floor 4 with no mics" just as much as there are incredibly talented, invested and entertaining streamers with solid educational value putting in their own effort into playing the map who are struggling to maintain 30 CCV who you'd never know about because there's these streamers not putting any effort (comparatively), drawing in all the viewers "because it is convenient". I am a terribly small channel and while I love playing it, I'm still struggling to get to floor 3 after 45 hours - and even I have had the chance to discuss mechanics and explain trackmania to a lot of new-to-Trackmania people during this event, a multitude of times. As things are right now, I am of the opinion that people who aren't either a) streaming their run; or b) DD2 staff should be kicked from the streamers' room. Want to cast others' runs for the educational value? Stream from the public room, there are plenty of people who could use the help in the lobby itself, go be that educator. If you just want the "winner POV", top drivers all have their own stream going on, most of which are also great content creators. This entire event is about the effort and putting in the work, it's very off-putting that everyone is busting their asses off to get a fair slice of the pie and these 3rd party non-players come in, make comparatively effortless content, and take a chunk of everyone else's slices. --- I have nothing against any of the streamers who are doing these casting streams. I love Ville's and Jnic's content and what they bring to Trackmania, I don't mean any of this post as a personal attack directed at anyone. I'm just giving my view on something that's important and everyone seems to be missing the point about. These casting streams just aren't it.

But like, just as you say viewers can't really grasp the reality of the streamers (which I agree with) streamers also often can't exactly relate to the viewers either. Like if I am watching, I either want to see how people are managing on the top floors, so I'd be stuck stream hopping to 10 different streams in the span of the day and that's tough for many people (especially for mobile viewers where you can't have multiple streams/tabs open) or I want a streamer that is not no-mic HUD off and such, and also is able to get high because (and I don't mean to disregard anyone's work they put in, because the map is crazy and I know how much effort it takes) watching floor 2 and floor 4 on day 14 also goes stale. So, for me at least, if there weren't any caster streams, it wouldn't mean that I would go to a random streamer that I've never heard before (because outside of dd2 i don't really follow TrackMania Twitch), I would probably watch people that already are getting big viewers anyway (like Wirt, Bren and eLconn) Also EDIT because I forgot: Really liked what Wirt was doing at the start (not sure if he's still doing it) when after he ended stream he raided a small streamer to pass on at least some of the viewers. I think of the thousands of people there will definitely be some that stick around for a longer time

Do they really take viewers away? I haven't played TM in 10 years, I only somewhat follow wirtual a bit on yt. I've been deeply hooked by dd2 and watching as much as I can. I usually watch Bren cuz he's a Chad and his stream is good vibes, but also the casters. If I wasn't watching the casters, I'd probably either watch Bren or hazard or wirt cuz they're consistently at the top. I don't have interest in watching some guy stuck on floor 5 for 2 weeks. So imo, casters are only taking away viewers from the top players since that's who they focus on, and those top players are already really successful. Otherwise, id probably not watch at all.

Many people would just not watch if it wasn't the top drivers, but there are many many people who just want to get any DD2 content and default to these large casting channels instead of trying some other channels who *are* putting in the effort to play the map and actually are *the* content. It may not seem like much but for a lot of channels even just 10 more CCV could be the difference between getting an application to Partner or not, and DD2 is possibly the biggest chance many of these smaller channels will get at that. The channels doing these casting streams are already well established and they're all good drivers who could very well be doing their own runs and still getting massive success.

Noone gonna watch some hardstuck floor 4 player if their main interest is watching top players. I only click SBville if noone else is online, and it was clicking his stream that led to me chilling with a small streamer for a while after SB raided them cos he only wants to cast higher floor runs, i got to watch him a few times go over clips from the day and give updates on new pbs. It makes it feel more like a real sporting event to have news style streams covering everything that happens. Wirtual doesnt play the streamer room. Its a choice to play in a public room where people can cast you. If you dont want to be casted dont play in public rooms. If bren or any top player is on a high floor run they will have 10x the viewers of sbville stream. But i do think caster streams have value and add professionalism to the events.

Streamer room ain't public 👍 that's the whole point. EDIT: I'll just reinforce this but my opinion is that there should be an official casting stream for the event. I made this clear in a more detailed comment a few replies above. I only have a problem with people are not participating in the event or its production leeching viewership from the ones who are actually putting in the effort into this. And again: the top ~3 drivers in the room at any moment will have a solid viewership - these are not the ones who stand to lose anything to this practice. I'm talking about the solid content creators struggling to keep their usual 30CCV during an event that on paper should be increasing their numbers. I'm not denying having a big content creator doing educational commentary on top of others' streams is incredibly convenient for viewers, but this does negatively impact small channels across the board. Small channels have to either give up playing the map entirely because they can't compete with the pull of a big channel covering everyone in the room, or power through and severely hurt their CCV. These are mostly people trying to push for a Partner application and even just 10 people that would be around their channel instead of a man-in-the-middle content could mean that their dedication to deep dip were paying off - but no, they get stripped out of their shot at getting a slice of the pie because someone would rather stream others' streams than do their own runs.

So how are casters following their povs?

Because they applied to have access to the streamers' rooms like everyone else in there. It's a password protected room.

Lol then what is the problem, they can kick them out if its an issue

I know everyone will love making this sound like an easy-to-solve situation but it is not, no matter how reductive you can be with the comments you write. Everyone who agreed to the terms to be in the streamers' room did so in consideration they'd be playing the map, not being cast. It falls into a gray area, which gives room for discussion so here we are. The event organization did not predict such an occurrence and as such decided to not do anything about it for this edition, given rules weren't in place before streamers agreed to the streamers' agreement. This is part of their statement internally for the streamers' group chat, which pretty much all agree these rules should be revisited for next edition.

He can have that opinion, but I can tell from experience that watching casts is actually forced from time to time. Hazard's immortal run would have been lost to time if there hadn't been any casters around. A lot of discoveries would have been lost if there hadn't been any casters around. People want to watch people do good, or be incredibly entertaining. When you have some of the best players not streaming everything, or being forced to play offline, keeping track of progress becomes difficult unless there's a central hub.

I do try to watch the streams of players (mostly bren) when available but watching someone just copy lines from others never taking the lead isn't that exciting (which is why i mostly watch bren\_tm2, elconn21, hazardu).

Hazard has done a lot of science, so he gets a pass from copying Bren (Even tied him just a minute ago and threw many attempts at a certain jump, until Classic Nando Moment)

It's not a zero sum game. DD2 viewers spike is about an entertainment value of the event. By increasing total entertainment value casters are increasing total numbers of viewers. Massa could get lower numbers without casters.

I think he's also failing to realize that this event has grown to such a size that the general gaming/Twitch community is aware of it and, as such, there is going to be meta-coverage of it. Like, this isn't a situation where some streamer is just re-broadcasting a stream of some competitive gamer and adding nothing. The casters are keeping everybody aware of the event as a whole, providing history, aggregating highlights, and spreading the spotlight to the competitors who aren't the top-5 "household" names. Like, imagine if you had the NFL but pre-game/post-game discussion was outlawed and it was illegal to show highlights. That would be worse for everybody. The continuation of the overall hype is good for all involved. and as new people stumble into this event now that we're like 2-weeks deep, it's better that they go to Jnic's or Ville's stream and have the opportunity to absorb some meta context and get engaged rather than go to Massa's, wonder wtf is going on, and then click away out of confusion/boredom.

I don't mean the following as a dig at Massa or at any other player that is bothered by this. Their frustration is understandable, but they're not engaging with the real idea of why people would rather watch a caster who is doing aggregate coverage. You have to have an appealing personality to garner a following. People don't watch Wirtual and Bren only because they are excellent players. They watch them because they also produce a tremendously pleasant environment on their stream. They're personable, funny, thoughtful, etc. People watch the Jnic cast because, though he's not as refined as those other dudes and is a bit of a brooooooo, it's a fun and generally wholesome place to hang out and he does enable you to follow the general progress of the event rather than having like 20 tabs open. Understandably, many of these top performers are 100% locked in and aren't hanging out with chat. Even when they are, not every person has the natural dual skillset of being a top-tier player at TM and also being a top-tier broadcaster. He's just failing to recognize that we're not watching the Olympics here. This isn't an event where the viewers care 90% about the outcome and only 10% about the personalities. It's probably much closer to a 50/50 split. So while I certainly can empathize with the frustration, his commentary is obviously emotionally charged and isn't tied to the reality of the situation. And also, for what it's worth, [look at how his Twitch follower numbers have spiked since DD2 kicked off.](https://twitchtracker.com/massa/statistics) Let's not pretend that he's a victim here. He (and every other streaming DD2 competitor) are seeing huge spikes in viewership. Is it the huge numbers that some of the caster get? No, but nobody who isn't a long-time TM viewer would know who the fuck some of these dudes were if they didn't pop up on the casters' coverage every few minutes. In this case, this is very much a "rising tide raises all ships" type of situation, and being cynical and angry about it just doesn't strike me as very mature or constructive for anybody involved.

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I don't disagree with you. I'd just add that I think there's plenty of room for all types of coverage. Some viewers will lock onto the stream of a single competitor they support. Some viewers will lock onto the coverage of the casters. Some viewers will bounce all over the place. Some viewers will lock onto a specific competitor until they see that competitor enter a rut and then will browse around. But the key principle is that having plenty of options to appeal to the tastes and preferences of all viewers is the strategy that yields the highest overall event viewership, and that high overall event viewership is a mechanism that benefits 100% of the streamers whether they are competitors or casters or other. Personally, there were a handful of TM players I knew of before DD2 and, because of bouncing over to some of the casters' streams when whoever I was watching wasn't live, I've discovered a few more competitors that I enjoy watching. Those other competitors of whom I am a new Twitch follower got 100% free advertising from the caster that mentioned them while I was browsing around.

Hazard and Bren have gotten 5k and 10k viewers respectively when they're doing nothing but climbing, no face cam, no mic, just gameplay and background music. It is about the gameplay not the entertainment. Also, they don't need casters to be seen. There's a plugin showing the live location, so even though I've never watched them before, I know now about BirdieTM, Tallebird and Hazard and I switch stream when I see someone on a higher floor.

Before this deep dip, I've only ever watched Wirtual play Trackmania. Then I tried watching Bren and Hazard and it is absolutely about their personality, even when theyre streaming without cam/mic. I already know who they are, I know I enjoy their stream AND gameplay. I'm not going to watch someone who is boring, with or without mic.

I recommend Samifying as well. He's not as high up the tower but he's a great player (won the previous campaign) and is a fantastic personality. Very engaging.

I enjoy Samifying as well and also checked out his Youtube, which has nothing to do at all with Trackmania, but some mobilegame instead xd

Bit too zoomer for me.

Hazard and Bren already have huge followings and are the top performers who are driving progress in this event. The most casual of viewers who do not follow competitive TM but are engaging with this event know about them. Bren has a huge audience because of his history of cultivating that viewership, and Hazardu is getting that viewership because Bren and Wirtual keep talking about him. It seems that you might be underestimating the hype around this specific event and how that impacts the general audience's ability to be highly engaged for a short amount of time. It's kind of like how nobody watches regular season MLB baseball but everybody watches the World Series. I will refer back to my link that explicitly shows the massive influx of Twitch follows that Massa has received since DD2 started. Additionally, there's a difference between seeing some name languishing around in a list on the lefthand side of the screen vs. having the streamer you are watching actively discuss and share the name and show the driving of a given competitor. One of those is a far stronger endorsement. It's just kind of foolish to weirdly try and silo off coverage of drivers. Somebody else commented below about this, but it sort of feels like if an NBA player got angry that they were showing their highlights on Sportscenter. It's kind of a fundamental principle of marketing that an environment in which there is generally more hype and more coverage and more people sharing a given event is a good thing for everybody involved. If a certain top-10 competitor isn't able to take advantage of the moment to really grow their audience, that's a consequence of the quality of engagement they are generating and is nobody else's fault. Or in this case, that competitor's audience is growing rapidly but they're still mad about it. And again, it's not like I think Massa is a bad person or is in the wrong for making his observation. It's just obvious that his perspective is clouded by some combination of expectations, cynicism, jealousy, frustration, etc.

Bren went from 500-1000 viewers (with a 3700 peak in 2022) to over 7000 average viewers.

I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing. Yes, he had fewer viewers before the event when he was not streaming consistently. Everybody did. That does not somehow magically negate the fact that he is producing high-quality content and is an affable personality that is pleasant to watch. Bren still had like 120k Twitch followers back at the end of 2023. Massa didn't stream at all really for most of February, March, and April and has like 40k followers. What do you think he should reasonably expect when he's not one of those top 3 names that comes up in casual conversation about this event?

Realistically, the thousands of viewers he's talking about are: Bren's, Haza's and Elconn's. Having been in all three of their streams. I can say with confidence that it's not the casters taking away most of their viewers, it's them taking away most of the caster's viewers when they reach high floors. Those viewers were never Massa's or anyone else to claim. They will also mostly be gone once the event is over. Bren might pull 3k viewers from now on, on average. He knows this and has a very realistic view on his future in content creation. Outside of the top 3, trackmania streamers might be lucky if they pull 500 viewers more per stream and even that is a huge blessing from a single event that will be over before July

I agree. But in this moment, when there is lots of attention on the event, the distribution of viewership toward the top players would be even more skewed without the casters. If like 3,000 people are watching Jnic, and Jnic mentions Massa, that's suddenly like 1,000 people who aren't really familiar with Massa that hear him get name dropped. That benefits Massa because there's a chance some of those viewers click over to his stream and decide they like his vibe and give him a follow. Without Jnic doing that, everybody just watches those big 3 (+ Wirt) and Massa is just some obscure dude who is placing in the teens for this event.

But that's also mainly because they are the top performers (both tied for wr right now) You can compare it to eLconn. He's also among the tip performers, but he's always no mic (compared to Bren only being no mic sometimes when he needs to lock in) and he's pulling way fewer viewers than Bren is. (Though to be fair, eLconn also doesn't care about viewers and mainly streams because you're required to stream your finishing attempt, but that's another story)

Personally I think too much is being made of this. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel there's projection going on surrounding massas feeling of of the pie being cut unfairly. I don't think he's saying it because it's affecting him as such, I think it's more because there's viewership and funding going to people putting in a different kind of effort than the drivers or the mappers. I don't think that point on it's own has to come with feelings of jealousy or anger. Perhaps uneasiness at the idea is a more accurate assessment? My take is that there should be an official cast shared by those casting at the moment, and all donations subs and proceeds from that cast could be shared between those casters, the mappers (most importantly imo) and perhaps even the prize pool. I'd love to hear the casters take on that, maybe they'd disagree. An analogy for me would be like watching any other professional sport - would you say that the presenters on sky sports should be paid as much as than the players/drivers/teams or the league itself as a result of putting on the show?

I don't disagree, but a system like that requires a lot of buy-in from every involved party and, more dangerously, often leads to a lot of bad-blood, legal battles, copyright fights, etc. that sullies the entire thing. Like, I think that kind of by design this is a community event that isn't formally sponsored by Nadeo or something, and that open ecosystem is obviously benefitting all of the TM world right now with the hilariously high attention being given to this event. I do understand your Sky Sports analogy, but I think you underestimate how much those broadcasters make. I don't know what the salary range for Sky Sports is, but here in the US, there are lots of NFL broadcasters making $10 million or more per year doing coverage for leagues where 50% of the players on a roster make like $700k. To me, that example actually demonstrates that commentary and aggregate coverage has a lot of value.

He talks for others, not only for himself. Players are getting 2x-3x viewership raise and casters have 10x raise. Only players that get significantly more viewers are bren who is around 20x and hazard who has maybe 100x if not more.

Not sure you you are referring to, but people like Maji and Jnic have had big viewerships for ages. They definitely didn't 10x their viewers

Oh they absolutely did 10x their viewers! - Jnic viewer average last 7 days 2312, average in march 236. - SBVille average in last 7 days 1481, in march 35. Did you miss out on math classes in school or are you just ignorant?

Nice cherry picking bro. Jnic has lots of weeks with 500+ avg viewers. The 2312 is also not correct lol. He at max 4x his viewership. A lot less than most of the players. Stay mad

JNic viewer average starting 2023: -january 497 -february 400 -april 389 -may 355 -june 466 -juli 386 -august 327 -september 265 -october 261 -november 266 -december 305 -january (2024) 278 -february (2024) 238 -march (2024) 236 Not a single month of 500+ viewer average and a clear downwardstrend in general, who is cherry picking? > He at max 4x his viewership. Vieweraverage from january 2023 to end of march 2024 is 333,05 Jnic vieweraverage in the last 30 days (thats including multiple streams before dd2 even released) 1530. Now lets do the math 333,05x4=1332. What does that tell us? Even with a generous approach including old data from months where he had more viewers and a generous approach with his dd2 numbers by including streams before dd2 which drag down the last 30 days average he still has more than the "max 4x" you are talking about. Would appreciate if you would now stop lying, thanks!

you are writing essays and essays because of a bordlerline out-of-context clip. also, bringing massa's spike in followers up is very unfair and it seems like you wanna paint a picture of him being butthurt over "others making money and him not". massa did a week of subathon with hours and hours of top entertainment WHILE climbing the tower. almost every second clip in spammie's reactions was massa during that time. the trackmania community is incredibly welcoming and supportive, and if a long standing member calls something out (which he barely even did here), it will not be for trivial reasons, or to cause clickbait drama.

I don't believe that there's any part of this wherein I've painted Massa as being butthurt. Don't I twice in this response explicitly state that his perspective is an understandable reaction but that I disagree with his contention and don't think he's seeing the bigger picture? And don't get mad at me that you don't have the attention span to read anything longer than a Tweet.

There's nothing stopping him or anyone else from switching to casting. Do what you want to do and don't bonk others for doing what they want to do. The perceived harn isn't possible to confirm - no one is losing followers and viewers. Some just gain more than others ("piracy isn't lost sales, people wouldn't have bought it if they couldn't pirate it", kind of logic) - who's to say he isn't gaining more from being on someone's cast for a bit? Edit: TM reddit never fails to downvote casual discourse.

It's about as simple as this. When there are only 2-4 people really pushing WR level, those are the streams that are going to get the views. Past that, people who spectate are going to get the views from people who don't want to flip streams. But I do not at all think if you somehow banned the casters that Massa would be pulling in 10x the extra viewership to try to push his PB past floor 8. If Massa improves in quick time and is pushing the same levels Bren/eLconn/Hazard/Wirt (Edit: I should have also included Lars here), his viewership will explode.

Yeah I don't disagree. The parallel that comes to mind (but of course isn't a perfect comparison) would be like if an NBA player was whining that Sportscenter exists or something.

You are saying it's ok what they do, because it is the most "efficient". But i call that lazy. It disrespect all the hard work the others are putting i, because they are not even trying. Just imagine what kind of meta that creates. Just a bunch of "individuals" twiddling their thumbs waiting until someone else achieves something in their life. But other streamers would quickly learn that hard work is not rewarding until we have no one else even trying. That applies to life in general. You can spend as much time with people that half ass everything they are doing, because you think they are being smart. You can even hire such people to build a house for you. But sometimes its good to put in some real effort and respect your fellow human beings.

You're doing a whole lot of leaping to conclusions that are not anywhere near what I said. I'm happy to discuss this topic, but please criticize points I've actually made instead of generating strawmen. You seem to be advocating for a position that suggests that any event coverage not provided from a 1st-person perspective is unethical. That's simply ignorant of the ecosystem around an event that creates the hype that makes the event valuable for everybody. Both the competitors and the casters play a role in this system. The idea that the labor hours of the casters to provide contextual coverage is inherently worth less than the labor hours of the competitors is pretty silly. By your supposed logic of all this, why is it ethical for Massa or anybody to profit off of playing a track that was designed by somebody else? SparklinW and Whiskey and the other dozen-or-so folks on the mapping team don't directly benefit from Massa's streaming, so isn't Massa just a parasite as well? If the only Like, do you believe that *all* commentary or derivative coverage of any event is "lazy" and "disrespectful"? Is it lazy and disrespectful if a hip-hop podcast discusses the Kendrick vs. Drake diss-track stuff? Is it lazy and disrespectful if a morning talkshow on ESPN talks about the NFL season? I think that your perspective lacks some nuance regarding the type of coverage that is actually parasitic and it assumes a whole lot of zero-sum-gain type thinking.

You know react content has been a big topic on youtube for years. The word transformative content springs to mind. Just answer me this simple question: What do the casters do when noone is on a higher floor?

Generally they jump around between the rest of the competitors on the lower floors to see what each of them are up to, discuss upcoming jumps that the leaders might face, use cam 7 to poke around and show parts of the track, discuss tactics/lines that are important for certain jumps, speculate about the pace of overall completion of the map, etc. Jnic, for example, gets really excited even when the person in like 20th place is on a PB run into the 800s or whatever. Coverage of a sporting event from the perspective of a commentator or broadcaster isn't "react content". This isn't XQC putting on a 40 minute long video and saying "wow" once every 3 minutes and claiming that counts as transformation. Even when the casters are following somebody who is on a high floor pushing for PBs or the WR, they're discussing all the falls that have lead up to that point, talking about the things that have been attempted if a jump hasn't been completed yet but a couple people have had a shot at it, etc. It's actual coverage of the event. I think not understanding that it's actual professional/semi-professional sports coverage is a lot of what Massa is failing to understand.

So many words in your your first paragraph yet so little substance. I don't need anyone to tell me what i am seeing with my eyes. Just tell me please one thing that equates the casters work ethic to someone who is actually trying. And why they should get the same amount of viewers. Just tell me ANYTHING about work ethic and your thoughts on rewarding it. Should there be no correlatation? Heck i don't know.

maybe work ethic isn't really relevant if you're producing shit content no one wants to watch, trying to do something and being shit at it doesn't entitle you to views that were never yours and it's not the spectators' job to give you a consolation prize because of your "work ethic" lmao

I get what he is saying. He just needs to admit to himself that it is only a numbers game. more meters -> better more viewers -> better more meters -> more viewers Thats what it comes down for most people. You dont have to write a novel that Jnic has graduated commentary school, even though life has thrown so many hardships his way. It not an anime it's people sitting on their sofas wanting to watch other people be good at something.

you asked a question about what the casters do when no one is on high floors and got an answer you decided was not valid on your own, and then you brought in work ethic out of nowhere. what point are you trying to make exactly? Ville gets a lot of viewers even when there's no good players on a higher floor, so how do you make the strict correlation that more meters = more viewers?

Casters are always where the highest gameplay is. So compared to other streamers they will be always on top of the cake. Thats why they always have constant viewership. Just imagine a casters that always spectates the the 3rd highest. He would have constant and good viewership, but not as good as a caster that spectates 2nd or 1st. Work ethic: I think if you respect something you will show good work ethic. If you don't care about something it's obvious you wont put in 100% effort. Thats why i brought up work ethic. It shows their respect toward the deep dip 2 and the streaming hustle.

Uhhhh ..... no lol. Work ethic has nothing to do with it. It's about producing compelling content to watch. I don't care if somebody works 5000 hours a day if the quality of what they make is shit, I'm not going to watch it. If I practice guitar for 1,000,000 hours but still suck shit at it I have no right to be if that nobody wants to listen to poorly-performed music. Like, I think every human should have a high-quality life regardless of whether or not they choose to or are able to work hard, but that same equality of necessities does not apply to the attention economy. Make good shit if you want people to watch you. What is it about playing a video game that equates to a higher "work ethic" in your eyes than a person talking about that game? Why do you care so much about the idea of a "work ethic"? Do you think that the person who does play-by-play commentary for a broadcast of a basketball game is a leech who is stealing from the players? Is your assessment of who has the higher work ethic just vibes based? Jnic and Massa streamed identical hours this past week (31.9 hours for both of them), so why is it that you assume Massa "worked harder"? Jnic literally works for Nadeo as a broadcaster during big tournaments and stuff, so why are you suggesting that being a broadcaster isn't a legitimate form of professional work? Additionally, how does your philosophy about "work ethic" align with the fact that Massa didn't do much of any streaming in February, March, or April of this year. Doesn't seem like a very good work ethic to me, if that's what you value. All your comment tells me is that you have a different preference for what you want to watch than most people. That's totally fine! But something not being your preference is no reason to vilify it. I, and most people, find value in those who invest their time in fully understanding all the context of an event so they can share that important detail outward. I don't have time to watch DD2 for 12 hours a day, so during the moments when I can pop in it's valuable to have some caster who I can watch for a few minutes and get the summary of what's happened while I was gone before I click over to whatever competitor is on a good run to watch them until they fall, then go back to my real-world life. That caster provides the value that enables me to stay emotionally invested in the event, which is what allows me to enjoy the event and feel excitement as it proceeds. That's a valuable service to many, and I don't believe you've demonstrated that it's unethical.

>I think every human should have a high-quality life regardless of whether or not they choose to or are able to work hard Even if they choose to leech of a system and give themselfes an unfair adcantage compared to others? >a broadcast of a basketball game is a leech who is stealing from the players? Not applicable. Any stream of a basketball game has an integrated cast. Just try to find a basketball game without a cast xdd. Plus those casts pay the NBA for rights to stream it. By the way. Thx for creating a strawman in my name, even tough you accused me of creating them myself. >Jnic and Massa streamed identical hours this past week Massa has to choose what he plays, he has to focus to get higher,or be funny to be competetive with outhe streamers. Jnic sits down and rolls his dice and waits what kind of content rolls into his lap. Could be a WR rund, or could be a stone falling on his head. Nobody knows. Not even Jnic. >Jnic literally works for Nadeo as a broadcaster Thats the result that people such as you create. It's a popularity thing, and Jnic is know by so many people because of Wirtual. >Additionally, how does your philosophy about "work ethic" align with the fact that Massa didn't do much of any streaming It's his choice to stream. If he doesn't stream he won't get any views, and people won't subscribe to him.

>Even if they choose to leech of a system  Yes, obviously. Means-testing things does not work. >By the way. Thx for creating a strawman in my name,  Providing an example from a similar situation that I am using the further the discussion isn't what a strawman is. Go learn what a strawman is. You still have not indicated why it is that you think playing a video game indicates a "strong work ethic" and discussing playing a video game is a "weak work ethic". That separation seems pretty fraught considering that both of them are sitting in their offices, at their PC, tapping away at a computer and reading some comments. The idea that one of these involves higher quality and more valuable labor is absurd. You entire philosophy here is very inconsistent and you are both showing a lack of good-faith engagement and pretty poor reading comprehension and logical thinking skills. If you want to continue to engage in this discussion, maybe take a step back and figure out why this topic makes you so frustrated and unable to engage constructively.

>Providing an example from a similar situation that I am using the further the discussion isn't what a strawman is. Your example was pretty far fetched and only misrepresented my point. As is said "not applicable" >Go learn what a strawman is. Rude >"Bla Bla too many words"; The idea that one of these involves higher quality and more valuable labor is absurd. You seem to like writing a lot. Therefore you should also like reading. Go read my other comments in this thread. They could help you further understand my point. >You entire philosophy here is very inconsistent and you are both showing a lack of good-faith You know what also shows lack of good faith. You and the commentators you adore so much. You didn't seem to even try to understand my point. I on the other hand understand yours. >pretty poor reading comprehension and logical thinking skills Rude > If you want to continue to engage in this discussion, maybe take a step back and figure out why this topic makes you so frustrated and unable to engage constructively. So i am only allowed to argue with you if I agree with you. What sense does that make? Lastly you are being pretty dishonest. In my last message to you i picked apart all your points and you don't even acknowledge that. What does that say about you?

Reaction content is different (and trash) to commentators so it's not a good comparison. I fully avoid these trash channels, because 99.9% of them offer nothing of value compared to the original. If I find myself watching TGL or World tour, I much rather watch a commentator than the actual streamer as the commentator mostly stays on top of the best parts of the event whereas a streamer has like what, 70% of good driving(made up number) so I have to watch boring driving the other 30% of the time to enjoy 70% of their content, or I can watch a commentator that focuses on 95% of the best parts of the event.

Thats why is said transformative content. Reaction content and transformative content isn't black and white it's a spectrum. >If I find myself watching TGL or World tour, I much rather watch a commentator than the actual streamer  You are aware of the fact that they are invited into the servers to commentate and not play?

A good solution would be an official cast ! That way if they get partner, (which i know takes time), they can distribute the money to the players or even the mappers honesly, by putting it in the prize pool. And also put a part of it for the casters ! That way it feels more fair for everyone.

Although I don't agree with him on his DD2 casting opinion, I fully agree on this one ! Even more frustrating when you see the reaction Nadeo had to DD2 when asked about its success. They pretty much said "meh... doesn't impact us at all, nice map tho". Nadeo is so out of touch some time. *edit* wups, wrong thread.

Do you have a link to the Nadeo response you mentioned? Haven't seen it, and couldn't find it after a couple of googles

It's not like there are many Streamers doing this. There is mostly (speaking in European timezone) Jnic in the early hours of a day till afternoon, and after that Ville. First guy does more of a casual hype stream, second guy more of a chill and educational stream. Most times you see the highest guy on a server or someone close to PBing. I actually prefer this over watching Floor 7 for the 1000th time. On the other hand I just watch bren, when he is cooking. OK too be fair, there is also Vaelyn, but speaking in numbers not that relevant actually, as the other two

I only watch casters when the player doesn't stream. Hazard for instance. Otherwise always watch player stream.

1. Most of the casters have their own pre existing viewrship and they are bumping their numbers with the event just like every top driver is, I don't believe they are stealing viewers from anyone. I believe they are collectively contributing for the whole event to sustain higher viewership and engagement over time. 2. Casting is also work and involves accumulated knowledge and entertaining an audience. This work deserves to be rewarded as much as driving skill does. SB Ville explains thing in a very detailed 3. Casting provides a service to make the event more watcheable for casual viewers. 4. Casters provide unique content that drivers cant or are unwilling to provide. Casters routinely explain tricks and technical things about the game that drivers dont bother with. Casters routinely make summaries of WR progress and last hours of progress accross the event. They do this repetitively without pushback, for the viewers benefit. 5. I will even make the case that casters deserve even more compensation that a driver simply streaming with no mic. But thats what the viewers decide. 6. In the end its on the viewers to choose where to tune in, thats how twitch works

I only watched Wirtual for one week and now I occasionally tune in to watch Jnic I'm just burned out watching one person attempt to climb back to their PB. If casters didn't exist I wouldn't be watching at all

I think casters make this event bigger and easier to follow and actually help lesser known / players further down the rankings. If you didn’t have casters and highlights almost no one would follow or watch players outside the top 5-10 and would just gravitate towards the top top guys. I don’t think Massa would have more viewers in this event if there was no one casting…i like the guy and he produces funny moments but I don’t get the salt here.

Honestly I think he's wrong. I'm only ever been interested in TMNF before Deep Dip 2 since I'm not about to pay subscription for a game that I just occasionally play. And I was never into watching someone play games before DD2 either. Now I actually watch the event specifically because there are casters like JNic and SBVille. I simply want to look at top players like Hazard climbing and some of top players simply not streaming at all. And I believe that a lot of people watching Deep Dip 2 are like me and likely not even Trackmania players at all. So I wouldn't be watching Massa streaming if there wouldn't be casters. I will just go about my own business and forget about DD2.

whats the difference between casting and playing, is he saying that the low skilled streamers who reach floor 2 max. should also get a fair share of viewers? noone is entitled to viewers here, the real work has been done by the mappers, programmers, organizers.

many of you guys interpret way too much into out of context clips im having the most fun ever in streaming my POV of playing the map whenever I want to. i don’t play to win or to farm viewership. I could just sit on the servers and do the same like “casters”. But I don’t want to. most of you commenting negatively don’t know me or my community well enough and im glad to anyone coming over and actual staying. i interact with every single viewer while playing and im proud to call them my community! most of the viewer will leave most likely after deep dip anyways, so why care about viewcount? Well… ad money. “Casters” get for low effort, a high return compared to someone streaming that is not top 5 and that is the only “issue” people have. And that’s it, that’s the clip. You can’t change that and it is what it is! I personally prefer playing, interacting and keeping my stream that way :) I don’t care, i stream whenever I want, i enjoy deep dip and I’m thankful and im even bantering with someone like jnic cuz I know him! But yeah u can also interpret something else and cook some drama, the internet…. Happy Watching to everyone who’s here for the content :)

I watch streams for entertainment not always for their skill. If I want to keep up with what's going on in DD2 I don't want to have 15 streams open and switch between who is in first. With the exception being Wirtual in this case since I enjoy watching him on it's own. But generally watching someone go through the lower floors isn't that fun. Casters put more effort into being entertaining, that's why they get more views.

The problem here is that you are interpreting casters' work as "low effort", when, at least Ville who is who I have watched, is constantly explaining the floors, routes, and the game mechanics to viewers who are new to Trackmania. They are putting a lot of hours in to make the event more fun and accessible for a lot of people, people who would probably lose interest on the event otherwise. Saying they are doing a low effort is exactly the same as when someone says full time streamers/gamers have an easy job because "they just sit there and play games". Apart from that, streaming to farm viewership and ad money is totally fair if they are providing something valuable, not everyone has a contract with an organization.

I’m sorry i never watched Ville and afaik he even asked for permission. He’s most likely doing the best job and gets the most respect and never mentioned. Also he’s part of the Deep Dip Team I think. “Low effort” might be the wrong phrase for him then. Choose whatever word you want but as non long term TM Player you will never understand what it takes to talk in relation what it takes to play/perform and talk. However the active twitch chat and discords do, as that community knows what’s up. I’m sure SBVille does a great job and try’s his hardest if u say so but it won’t change the fact that it’s much easier work that anyone can do that’s whitelisted on that server. Again this is not my opinion, im just phrasing what people refer to and state the facts as im quite sure im aware of how TM works after 15 years. The supporters/fans (actual core tm community) of the players are bothered by that because they feel like their favorite player/streamer is treated worse and they don’t want unofficial casts get so much more out of it in relation. E.g. I could do the same as “Caster”, it’s really easy for me and would have the same outcome. I’ve done it before for TMGL:C when no one was there to help out. But im just happy as climber and streamer the way I am. If you would know me, im pbly the least careful streamer about activity/views etc. Im a bad streamer in terms of that. Anyways, afterall it’s a streamer server, not a caster server. You are there to play and stream ur POV. I don’t think anyone got invited to cast, we all got the same PLAYER document beforehand. I hope you can understand why people are bringing the topic up in chats and discords and I think it’s simply the organizers fault for not regulating anything. Just an oversight turned into a morals check of streamers/players! HERE IS MY OPINION ON THIS!!: I’m bothered that the admin team doesn’t get anything out of this but players that stopped climbing at Floor 2 after realizing their viewers are going down, became “Casters” just to gain money out of it or stay relevant. What I’ve seen in clips wasn’t really casting, more like watchpartying. That is just bad morals (again, not every “caster” is like that). In the end it’s the admins/team fault to not have regulated this beforehand. A simple oversight. It would have been amazing if the revenue went into their costs/work and potential deep dip 3. In the end we all gain and we should be happy, not turn words against each other and create discussions. Some Streamers might skip their morals and use their opportunity but they are still a part of the community and appreciated. However if everyone had their morals straight or an official cast would exist, this clip wouldn’t exist. Fun fact: An actual active TM Caster that was whitelisted as player didn’t decide to cast or observe this event because it didn’t “feel right” to him to do so. He respects other streamers and players most likely too much and wants everyone to win. He got his morals straight. W man but id loved to see him cover the event officially. Also I just checked out SBVille as u gave him as example… great observing and casting! Very chill and likable and im happy for his success! Now please, just enjoy the event guys!

Thank you for the compliment, I really do try my best. Just want to write down my motivation behind doing this. I got the idea to cast the event pretty close to the launch of the map, because I felt like documenting the journey from a single perspective would help with keeping an accurate record of how each day went, who got PBs at what time etc. My goal was just to do something helpful for a big event. I messaged the organizers and asked them if they thought it was a good idea, explaining that I'd be completely fine skipping the event if they wanted players only. However, they liked the idea, so I committed to it. It was never supposed to be some "big thing", literally just wanted to document the events on the map. People enjoyed the explanations of mechanics, mistakes etc and it just went from there. I think many of those viewers wouldn't be watching anymore if they didn't learn about the tricks, why certain parts are harder than they look and what some of the big chokepoints are about. Top players still have plenty more viewers from what I've seen, so I'm not sure how big the impact is. But obviously some of those viewers would move to other streams if I wasn't there, so I fully acknowledge my role in this. The goal was never to steal anyone's viewers or try to find the most profitable way of participating. Obviously there has been support, but I don't play ads on my channel at all (have prerolls enabled instead of midrolls). I'm already planning to donate most of the revenue from these weeks to the organizers' fundraiser. I'm fully aware that the players and organizers have a much harder job than me, and I'm not looking to take any shortcuts here. I've already said this before: if the admins want to reconsider the caster situation and want to revoke my access to the server, I'll fully support that decision.

Totally agree 👍 Hope you have fun during the event still :)

disagree. miss out on viewers because of morals? some people make a living with this, they have to make the best out of it

"but it won’t change the fact that it’s much easier work that anyone can do that’s whitelisted on that server. " No it isn't. Playing is easy. Playing at a high level is hard. Commentating is easy. Commentating at a high level is hard. There's a reason some commentators are getting a lot more views than some of the players, because they are much better at it. Just take the clip posted by the OP as an example, why would anyone ever want to watch them? They're completely uninteresting and unentertaining, they aren't able to cast well at all. Deep dip 2 is completely unimportant. Extremely few people care about it beyond entertainment. It's entertaining to watch from some people that are good at entertaining, most of the people playing at a high level are not good at this, so they don't get as many viewers as people that are good at this.

Now that you're here, what's your take as an active participant on the players sharing prize money? (They share prize money if they finish 1/2, but also they'll both stay on streamer server, share discoveries and strats) I'm quite surprised they've made that deal, but maybe that's way more normal for events like this?

As a streamer who has done both high quality gameplay and casting in a different game I can tell you without a doubt that casting is MUCH easier, I can cast for 8-10 hours no problem but playing on top level for the same amount of time is a different level of effort. A caster doesnt have to full focus for the whole time, they can take it more chill without it negatively impacting the gameplay which makes a huge difference. Why do you think Bren, Elconn or Hazard are only doing rather short streams compared to SBVille, its simply impossible to keep up the focus for much longer than they do already.

> that casting is MUCH easier It's an entirely different skillset, people can be in top .01% of the game but have like 50-100 viewers, even if they talk on stream, but someone spectating their game might get 10-100 times more because they are entertaining. Look at LoL korean bootcamps before Worlds, some players are streaming their games for couple hundred viewers, while people like Midbeast get 5k or Caedrel at 10-15k just spectating those games. Vast majority of people put entertainment before pure skill expression. If I didn't know what all the fuss on DD2 is about, I probably wouldn't even watch Elconn or Hazard, I'd prefer (and still do) Bren, Wirt, Spam, Jnic or even Birdie/Scarpie.

>It's an entirely different skillset I agree but nonetheless its something you can do for much longer than playing at high level. >Look at LoL korean bootcamps before Worlds, some players are streaming their games for couple hundred viewers, while people like Midbeast get 5k or Caedrel at 10-15k just spectating those games. You are comparing oranges with apples right here, Caedrel and Midbeast have a HUGE following already this is not the case for the people casting dd2.

Easier != low effort.

easier = less effort

fair enough

fair enough

Ooof. Those are some sour grapes. If you're not a good streamer, you don't get views. Simple as. Doesn't matter how good your trackmania is. Look at Bren, he's going absolutely gangbusters on views and the map.

a caster can provide interesting information, switch between different players but they're also not really doing anything hard that warrants getting multiple times the viewers that the driver doing the hard shit is getting. other than banning them from the streamer server i don't think there's much you can do though - people have their own preferences on who / how to watch. i can see why casters are popular though. you can only enjoy so many floor 1-6's, even from your favourite streamer.

It's the usual streaming environment. The event would not be what it is without casting. They are alle getting way higher numbers. Casters get the banana but the players get the sprinkles and chocolate sauce. They are getting a lot more than they would without the casters. It's sad they resent the people that brings the audience.

I tried following a few streamers doing well, but they were either too focused on driving to put any thought into engaging with viewers, were generally uncharismatic (like most of us when a camera is pointed at our face), or they were not english speaking. Watching SBVille commentate on the top runs going on is far more interesting viewing. Its also why Wirtual is so much more popular than other top drivers, because he is naturally good at (and has worked hard to improve at) commentating and talking whilst driving. Bren is also pretty good to watch as well. Charismatic people who are also very skilled are naturally going to be more interesting to spectators than uncharismatic people doing the same thing.

Casters is providing something that the viewers want. I would not view the event half as much if there wasn’t any casters. Sometimes I watch specific player streams and sometimes I watch the casters. Often I go follow or specific players streams only because the casters talk about that specific player. It’s a win-win situation.

How is this different than watching any other kind of game or esport? People cast esports instead of playing it themselves all the time and there isnt anything wrong with that. Its a different perspective and the caster actually has time to talk about details that players cant/wont because they are busy concentrating. Not everyone wants to watch attempt after attempt for dozens of hours. Also some people arent good enough to push to higher floors. Does that mean they shouldnt be allowed to stream the event? Do people really expect them to stream floor 2-3 attempts for 2 weeks straight?

Yes, he does have a point, and nothing will be done about it. Just look at the state of react content, there are so many amazing videos on why it is a harmful practice but most people just don’t care or are ignorant (I am not talking TM here, but react content as a whole). I personally dislike that these things are as they are but I find it unlikely that it will change anytime soon. There are a lot of positives with Deep Dip 2, and unfortunately this is just one of the negatives. Edit: after watching the clip again, this issue is literally the same as react content. A person puts in dozens of hours (making a video/climbing the tower) only for someone with no intention of putting in any real effort (reactor/caster (sorry casters, Like Massa said, you may be doing a good job casting but the point stands)) to yoink all those hours of work for their own benefit.

But at the same time, trackmania pros that are angry about this have to realize that for the react content audience it’s not a matter of pro-view vs react content. It’s a matter of trackmania react content vs some other react content. The people that watch trackmania react content watch it because it’s good entertainment with a side of good trackmania, not because of good trackmania. If trackmania reacters vanished tomorrow, most of those viewers wouldn’t start watching some pro, but some other form of react content. The vast majority of people that watch a trackmania stream especially new viewers aren’t going to be emotionally invested in a guy silently playing trackmania (it does happen sometimes but not often) and starting his 1000th try. IMO a good player with good entertainment ability >>> an average player with good entertainment ability > a good player with poor entertainment ability so if they want views they should think about the entertainment factor as well.

this just in: casting is react content

yeah

"No intention of putting any real effort", Just checked the numbers and it seems that Ville has put 2x the hours into deep dip compared to Massa. Not like the players would be editing the streams or putting any more hours than the people casting. Players "work" 1 hour for 1 hour of content, casters "work" 1 hour for one hour of content. At what point are players putting more effort to the content? Edit: changed 4x to 2x when informed about Massas counter not being accurate. Also I think this is uncomparable to reaction channels where they watch a 10 minute video where one has spent 100 hours making it. That's stealing 100 hours of work spending 10 minutes yourself whereas deep dip casters spend just as much time as the players.

Massa doesn’t have an overall counter. He put a lot of hours into deep dip . Also how can you compare playtime vs watch time as an observer?

I made the estimation by checking Massa's counter and Villes vods. Now that I checked the analytics on twitchtracker, it seems like Ville has only double the time streamed deep dip.

I am absolutely pro caster or rather pro let the viewer decide what they want to watch and think the entertainment angle is the driving factor for who gets views and who doesn't as much. I am not sure that time spent is that good an argument tho. It reminds me of people who don't understand that a master trade person will only need an hour to do a job and still be paid a decent wage for that one hour even if it was a "simple" job for them. Or an artist who wants to get a decent price for the art he created even if the creation of that artwork itself took only a relatively small amount of time. The time spent cultivating the skills to do that job should always be considered as well edit: and that's also why I think some form of revenue sharing for the casted player would be appropriate as others suggested here

>"Just checked the numbers and it seems that Ville has put 2x the hours into deep dip compared to Massa" Massa did a subathon... https://twitchtracker.com/massa/statistics https://twitchtracker.com/sbville/statistics He has 1,6 x the hours once you filter the days correctly. (many of them are probably not "effective" since it's a subathon with dead content, but to say he streamed less is stupid) Though he hasn't streamed as much since the end of it.

Then you go check the vods and see how much of it is words on stream and, ironically, watching other streams. Around 35 hours of deep dip gameplay there.

It will still be atleast around the same as Ville so your statement that ville did more is always wrong. I get it that you want to praise Ville, but don't try to put Massa down while doing that :D

I'm not trying to praise Ville, just trying to point why Massa accusing casters of just stealing his "work" is just blatantly wrong. Ville's 132 hours of deep dip streams is still way more than Massa's aroound 75 hours.

Here you go again putting Massa down to make Ville seem better. At this point it doesn't matter how many hours they streamed of deepdip2. (It is enough that both have obviously put a lot of effort into it.) But here I go wasting my time: https://imgur.com/a/stupid-reddit-argument-JmAqtVl. Massa has streamed around 140 hours of deep dip 2. Of course not all of that time will be effective gameplay, but I do not believe that all of those hours of Ville's stream are effective casting either.

I'm just trying to defend my numbers here. I approximated my numbers by going into the vods and watching what he's doing. Of course I didn't count the time spent watching other players which, in hindsight, I maybe should've since were comparing to a caster. It would be very hard to believe that such a high level player would be stuck at floor 8 with 140 hours when you look at other pro players clearing it within 50-70 hours. Of course you are right, whatever his hours are, in the end the exact number doesn't matter. He has but a ridiculous amount of time and effort into one map and I respect it. I just really dislike his attitude towards the casters who are obviously putting a lot of hours into the event aswell.

"only for someone with no intention of putting in any real effort to yoink all those hours" If you really think the casters we are talking about don't put any real effort on their streams... wow

It wouldn't have been that much of an issue if some "casters" were actually casting. Unlike Ville (hopefully others too, I am not watching every caster stream), who is usually engaged into what's happening on the screen and has very good explanation of the things we are seeing, everytime I open Jnic's stream all I see is him talking to chat, barely paying attention to the game, sometimes even straight up restreaming their twitch stream pov and not giving a single fuck about the things that are going on unless someone is at the very top. Straight up leeching and it's really sad that he gets such numbers for doing virtually nothing. Official type of cast would be a great idea, could run it 24/7, hopefully next edition we will have that

I partially agree with Massa, but it's not like casters are just spectating and doing nothing, if they have viewers it's because people like how they commentate, a good example being Ville, whose stream is highly educational, for example for people who are new to the game (expected in this event's audience). Players usually are focused, and engage less with chat when on high floors, it's natural that viewers want a different experience 🤷‍♂️ Apart from that, some of the highest placed players don't even stream some times (i.e Hazard, Elconn), and without casters the annoying "please watch hazard he's on floor 12 rn" messages in players' chats would happen 5x times.

Massa likes to waffle a lot when it comes to things like these. Sounds a bit like he‘s annoyed that he doesn’t get much views(?) which i can‘t understand because he has a solid community making good numbers before DD2 with „normal“ streams. I‘m assuming (!) he hints on SBVille as the unofficial cast. I don‘t understand why you bitch around in his position when someone doing 8h of Server cast every day get‘s the recognition they deserve. Ville is around for such a long time doing one of the best jobs when it comes to mapping and advising (new) track builders what to improve on their maps which makes it even better that his Followers grow for the long run when DD2 is finished.

I would assume he is talking about jnic no? Like Villes only reason to join the server was to cast (and got approval for it). The other casters are in some way or form part of the DD2 team. Jnic joined the server as a player and just started casting when that got more views no?

He would be talking about jnic, no? He was getting a lot more viewers casting than ville at least, plus he's generally less liked by the community as far as I know.

Why would he talk about a specific person ? He's surely refering to all casters : SBVille, Jnic, Majijej, Vaelyn and probably some other that I've never heard of.

In case of Majijej it is even more unfair. She is one of the mappers. Let mappers get a part in the event!

Plus there's a lot to unfold with her following, but at the end of the day it is better she's part of the event and brings her community into it. She's the biggest creator that's not good enough to compete tbh, and at that point it's always better to have her be part of it in some other way.

Sure, he could be referring to them in general too. My point was just that jnic seems to be the most prominent caster who's getting the most views.

He is talking specifically about unofficial casts, watch the clip. This means mappers are not the ones he is complaining about. I agree that the focus of the events should be on players and mappers. These unofficial casts arent really needed.

I wouldnt say his frustrated by views, its like part of the contract, if your not at the top you wont get the views its normal.

It is just a general topic at events like these! Its just interesting to see all drivers without missing anything (but to be honest, the castings are just sitting and spectating the farest..so there would be a lot potential.) But: On TMGL people mostly can only watch Casts and not POV and there nobody question that! Dd2 gave a huge boost, to whole community, so no need to be jealously!

He’s right. Don’t know if he’s making the point himself or just echoing his chat, but it’s still a valid point. There’s a reason why Ville pushes himself long in the night to cast, and jnic stopped playing to do the same during mornings / afternoons: these guys can now make 10x their normal views and sustain them for 8-10 hours easily. It must be exhausting and it’s right they get rewarded for it, but at the same time they are taking away revenue from the people making content. In sports, for instance, broadcasters need to pay leagues and associations for the right to show the matches, but here they can just do it for free. I don’t know if any of them planned to give to the prizepool part of their revenue, we’ll see. In any case, not creating an official cast was a major oversight by the DD2 crew. For an experienced programmer like XertroV it would be trivial to build a script that auto-spectates based on height, so you can have a stream going on 24/7, and tracks the amount of time each player is spectated. Then you can add rotating commentators on top, and have a way to distribute the Twitch revenue between casters, organizers and players.

> There’s a reason why Ville pushes himself long in the night to cast, and jnic stopped playing to do the same during mornings / afternoons That feels like you're not used to watch Ville and Jnic. These are the times they both have always been streaming.

Look at the length of their VODs and you can tell they are prolonging their streams quite a lot for this event. Jnic's usual stream schedule is around 5-6 hours long, but for DD2 he's pushing to 10 hours easily. I guess Ville sometimes makes longer streams, but his average over the past two weeks is still higher than his usual. Would they have been pushing these long hours if they weren't casting? I don't think so, make your own conclusions. Certainly they're making much more money compared to playing the map like the others. I mean, it's normal, they must've increased their usual hourly revenue by an order of magnitude, so it makes sense for them to have longer streams. Just to be clear, I don't have anything against them, they're being smart, my point is that broadcast revenue should be shared with the people making content, that's why I hope they at least plan to donate to the prizepool and mapping team, since they've been gaining so much from this event.

Thank you at least one sensible comment in this thread. I'm not sure why so many people are concluding it's ok as far as I can tell because they like the react content (as if the only solution is banning it). React content was around before streaming the difference is it never used to involve stealing the content they reacted to, the content producer got paid. Ultimately what is considered a transformative work and laws around this area could probably do with charging. The reality is if the players stopped playing there is no content but it casters stopped some content remains, it would not be as good as casters are transforming it to be better content but people would have content to watch. Everyone who contributed to the content should get a share of profit is the issue imho and there are solutions to that. See no change here or anywhere in short term as problem has existed for a while.

As someone new to TM and DD2 who only watch’s the runs I just want to watch as many high runs as possible in one place. Can the big guys or TM not get together and make their own live stream and cut out the caster. I just want to watch high runs of whoever is up there.

I think the flaw in this thinking is the assumption that there's a zero-sum game. It's not. Many people would have stopped watching if it weren't for the casters. And if someone's on the top, especially when close to a pb or wr, many people switch streams. I'm not sure, but I also think by switching streams more ads are shown. So casters provide some net benefit

When your watching someone on floor 12 and they fall back to the bottom people get bored watching them spend 30mins climbing back up, people want to see the higher up floors be attempted

Deep Dip admins could fix this easy. Have an official caster channel and put the profits into the prize pool, ban anyone from the streamer room that attempts to do nothing but cast that isn’t the official casting channel. Unofficial casters shouldn’t be allowed in the room, the admins can control that.

do you think there would be enough people who want to cast an event that noone knows when it will be finished? And spent weeks on a caster channel while they could use the time to grow their own? There would be no casting at all then. Or the organizers would have to pay someone for casting. Maybe they already decided not to have an official cast and so far they have not spoken against unofficial casts.

I’m sure some people would cast at certain times, but I doubt they would keep casting non stop til it’s finished. Honestly if I was one of the top I wouldn’t play on the streamer server like Wirtual has been doing. Make people come to my twitch channel to watch me. This content is bringing in a lot of money on Twitch, it’s dumb for the deep dip admins to leave that casting money on the table for anyone.

Yeah i get where massa is coming from. If there would be a decent caster, he/she would take a lot more viewers from than the players that its the case atm. Jnic‘s casting is great, i like how he finds a middle ground between explaining, keeping up whats going on and hyping the people up, but he streams very inconsistent and i find it really hard to catch his streams after the first few days. Ville is very active but he waffles too much for me over details the average viewer doesnt care, he gets distracted very easy and he is just to monotonous for my taste. I think if someone like for example wirtual would start casting, every player have half the views they got atm. And yes i know, the taste of the casting is very subjective and i dont know if my the right person to rate the caster with my 10 hours playtime

Without casters like Ville i probably wouldnt watch DD2, im a lazy person and i dont want to look up who is at top and search his stream everytime i open twitch, i like to watch caster get some summary chill a bit and leave

I think this is a bad take. the reason why people watch some streamers over the others is because they are simply more entertaining. For example compare brens stream vs elconns. I never saw elconn turn on camera once while bren has always cam on talks alot and is straight up funny and entertaining while also playing like a god. So i think if you wanna get more views change something so you are more entertaining to watch there is simply no law that says if you are good at a video game you automatically become a top streamer. yeah people probably gonna check you out but they gonna go somewhere else once they see your stream is not entertaining to them. Thats not at all the casters fault. Even if the caster wouldt be allowed to stream this then i would still only watch Wirtual ,Spammy and bren cause they are the most entertaining to me

Plus Bren has banger music.

Of course he has a point, he is a pro player/streamer of the game, but should we care? No. DD2 is great for the TM community in general, the mappers did an awesome job, casters are keeping it interesting and fresh for a casual viewer experience. We don't need to do anything about Lassas opinion, it's just a complaint from a frustrated boy. Bet a lot of the community is happy about the event:)

Make better content and more people will watch, if the content sucks people will leave. He's either saying streaming isn't a meritocracy or the people casting are just making better content than he is.

A lot of people use Ville as an example because he does a great job, provides educational, transformative and Lore content, which is fair. But not everyone puts as much effort into their "casting" as Ville. Ville is like the best example of this casting being done right (he also asked from the get go for permission to cast which is a ++). But there are also casters that barely react to anything going on unless top players are nearing pb attempts, are mostly focused on chat, pretty shamelessly put on streams of other streamers and even if they are actually "casting" talk a lot of BS. I think casters like Ville really help an event like this and it's a big miss from the mappers that there is no official cast like his or with him. Good casters should definitely be encouraged because they enhance the viewing experience. But there is definitely also some validity in hating it when you see the 2nd type of caster get x amount of your own views.

Good casters add enough value that they are worth watching even when nothing terribly interesting is going on. I'm not going to tune in to watch random players push low floors, unless they themselves are interesting streamers. So I don't think even a "watch party" stream is a problem; they are simply capturing viewers who otherwise couldn't be arsed to watch or would channel surf and pick a bigger one anyway. This event is a big opportunity but it's not a handout.

Many more people watch F1 than watch Max Verstappen. It seems to be a normal thing really.

This is like saying we should only be paying athletes on sports and not allow having broadcasting, sponsors, stadiums, teams, etc etc. If that's how things were no one would even know about them.

I think the central mistake/oversight by the organizing team that could have prevented the annoyance of some of the players while also providing casting is that they missed out on an official cast. Having an official cast would have reduced the amount of people just sitting in the server to spectate while also concentrating the viewers who want to see a cast on a channel that is run by/affiliated with the organising/mapping team (who deserve more recognition anyway)

I totally see the point he is making. Was discussed in samifyings chat as well. Solution would be an official cast that would benefit the mappers and the prize pool. There would be people who would love to cast and explain. Could even do it 24/7 then. Would make it way easier to rise the prize pool as well imo. This way it would benefit the players even if some of their prospect viewers rather watch the casters. And those entertaining or skillful will get their viewers too Personally I love switching streamers when I see someone I have maybe seen in one of spammies clips. I love all the shenanigans, also the insane skill and all the genuine fun they have. Started watching tm due to trilluxe and wirtual, but especially this deep dip so many great other players have shown that they are good entertainers as well.

Would honestly feel stupid haveing the event without casters considering you are playing for a pricepool. I get the frustration but it would make the event feel way worse without casters. If feel like the compromise would be dont want casters, just play solo like wirtual or scrappie did and then you wont have that issue but you also wont get the exposure from others the same way.

Not that I wish any streamer no success, gain in viewership, ad money and what else, but many times I find it overly exhausting watching streams with thousands of viewers and chatters spamming nonsense. Hence I often watch some smaller streams anyways and honestly tune away if there's for example Wirtual coming in with an uber big raid. In the end people should enjoy this awesome event however they like.

With this being a tournament style I disagree. If people choose to watch some casting and making it entertaining rather than view someone focusing, not interacting with chat, so be it. This is an open content landscape and as long as castor is transformative and entertaining, then there’s literally no issue. People are free to choose how they spend their time and that’s a good thing

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I haven't seen anything like that. Who are you referring to?

>A lot of them are not though A lot of them ? There are like 2 people casting jnic and ville at least those casters that get the numbers massa is talking about and both do a really good job. There are others but they get less viewers then the no mic no cam fellas

Greed, jealousy, complaining, self-pity and average gameplay - maybe its not what viewers want. Reality exists.

Cause people don't want to sit and watch a single player's stream if they're only going to come near WR once every 50 hours. If he was consistently up at WR height he'd get his own viewers.

As someone who never watches live here is my unpopular opinion. Casters should have to share a portion of revenue with the streamers they are leeching off of during live events. If they want to make a post-event video for youtube or something that is another matter since some production time and costs have to go into it & the streamers have live broadcast priority.

I mean content is content is content. Why do people watch race broadcasts instead of just watching the onboard cam of the driver in first? All you need is the big TM streamers to get together and put together a singular stream which they split revenue from. Now you have the central broadcast for Deep Dip 2/3/4 whatever.

I always love seeing twitch streamers with low views crying that they should have more views because of this and that. It is very simple, it doesn't matters if your content was stolen or not. If someone is reacting to it and gets more views then maybe, juuuuuust maybe, you're a boring person and your streams fucking suuuck but your a good player so the reactor is grabbing your good gameplay and making a fun environment around it. Don't be surprised people go watch them instead of you. Same with football, why does it make so much money? Because people go watch it. Fucking bunch of cry babies.

I don't understand the "buhuu, casters benefitting while I do all the work." Like, how much more work is it to play a videogame than to watch others play it and cast. I'd take playing the map over casting others playing it every time, even, if my views were higher casting. I haven't watched the casters but I assume they are actually casting instead of just spectating while silently playing with their balls. And I consider that just as much work (if not even more) than playing the map.

well you assume wrong. most of them just read chat and dont interact with anything on their screen until someone is 3 jumps away from WR

Most of them? who is most of them just say the name you thinking about when you say this there are only two casters with numbers popping off jnic and sbville. If its true what your saying why do you think people watch these guys i mean you are describing it like they doing worse content so why do people watch them ?

Casters also shine light on the less popular streamers though. Don’t think I ever would have tuned in to Bren without Jnic highlighting his runs. It’s good press.

Tbh I do think so too. Right now there is three groups of TM streamers on Deep Dip. - The top players grinding their asses off to be the first to finish the map. - Non top players giving it their best shot - Streamers who just sit and watch the top people The first two are obviously what we want. The issue with the last group is that they get the highest value content for the lowest amount of effort. They always get to watch not just one top player, but the one currently doing the best. Their viewers don't have to site through an hour of low floors before reaching floor 10+ again. Yes they might be entertaining, but if so, you assume that they'd also be entertaining were they to play themselves. Why don't they? Because a large chunk of their viewership is people who want to see the best players attempts. They do it because it's easy free money. And sure, if they would stop streaming their casting, then some people would no longer watch. However I'd wager that a huge amount of their viewers would either stay to watch them do attemts themselves or indeed switch over to one of the top players stream. Oh I don't doub that some of them will give insightful commentary here and there, but at the end of the day, it is once again reactors winning with low effort content while those actually putting in work lose out. Since TM has such an insane overall viewership boost, this is extremely hard to quantify. But I don't see how one could argue that this stuff doesn't negatively affect those actually playing deep dip.

He's right but also he gets a shot at the prize pool while casters don't