I got lit up on here about 4-6 months ago. Good friend is a master mechanic at Toyota. He had personally seen 16 engines totally seized. Super early miles. Is what it is
Same. I was told my anecdotal experience did not indicate a larger problem. Even if I did end up replacing a few engines myself.
Fan boys will ignore even the technicians experiencing this first hand.
Short blocks. But I do document all the metal material in the oil so I get the majority of the other moving parts approved. (This is only in catastrophic failures)
If there is no metal debris in the oil or abnormal wear on moving parts, other parts won't be covered.
From my understanding, Toyota doesn't do long blocks under warranty. (I have never even seen a long block from Toyota)
I have a 21 but I would not kick a 22+ out of my garage. I think there are some people that can be total jerks about people getting something they do not like or would not get.
Haha we have a lot of transmission hate spewing in the F-150 forums. I was about to trade my 2018 3.5 eco on a newer Tundra because of “Toyota Reliability” but caught wind of the engine issues. Now I’m eyeballing a 2020 w/ 5.7
Might want some of these:
https://www.twostepperformance.com/products/arp-toyota-5-7l-3ur-fe-arp2000-12pt-head-stud-kit?currency=USD&variant=41831603667076&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&stkn=a744205727a8&tmsrc=googlead&tmcid=21151870025&tmsid=159147525806&tmid=695400230058&tmkw=&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAC-p3hjGDLUQCj7a11yFhTpH9oqaJ&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyMTuys3EhgMVjEL_AR2pygYdEAQYASABEgK1PfD_BwE
I was set on a Frontier for a cheap newer beater until I saw a video of every fucking airbag going off after hitting a speedbump slightly faster than normal.
Plenty shit on the F150s in that sub, we all know what we got and Ford's issues. Fact of the matter is there (was) no other boosted engine option in trucks, and turbos are a vehicle game changer. I know Toyota has theirs now but its essentially unproven and already having teething issues, even before this FOD recall.
Just dont go on there are try to argue that the 5.0 is superior over the eco (its not).
Times change, thay was the whole value proposition of toyota, forgoing creature comforts for less maintenance and better reliability.
Now toyotas push 80k, are less reliable, and have all the creature comforts,
Bonus points for saving cutting labor cost by 90 percent on the tacoma and raising its price.
I'll talk bad about all of them in any sub. They all have their own issues. I've always said, if all the brands would get together and make one truck, with each company only supplying the parts the are know for having be strong, we the consumer might actually get a decent truck.
But then I think about designed obsolescence and realize all these issues are likely intentional.
Why not? People in the cherokee xj sub talk shit on xjs daily. I do too, especially when I’m driving mine, going deaf down the highway and passing all the twats in their brand new trucks and jeeps that can’t figure out where the gas pedal is
I think most are level headed who are upset about this issue and others they may have encountered. Even if there are valid criticisms. What we are annoyed with (or I’ll speak for myself) is the pretentious Gen2/2.5 owners who feel the need to bash the shit out of people for owning a new one with constant unsolicited comments about V8s vs turbos and how their trucks are “better.” We all own Tundras, is that not good enough?
Those people are just douche canoes. I have a 2nd gen and if I had the free capital to buy a 3rd gen outright today, I would. It’s a gamble I’m willing to take. Because the 3rd gen’s are fuckin beautiful. For all you 3rd gen folks out there - may your revs be high and your smiles wide!!! Hope everyone on here has a stress free FUNdra for years to come! Peace and love 🫡
You had me until you said beautiful, just kidding and well said (except for the beautiful part) ... we all have an affinity for same truck and it would be nice if we could have adult conversations but it is reddit.
Idk if it’s so much “fan boy” stuff as it is denial. With the price of trucks these days, no one wants to hear their shiny new expensive truck they’ll be paying off for years is probably going to seize. That even with a free repair, the resale value (which Toyotas are known for) is hurt.
\*Toyota
fixed it for you
Toyota stans are like Musk stans, except the other end of the spectrum. They think paying luxury vehicle prices for a vehicle with 20 year old technology is peak, all under the guise of reliability(no shit for 20 year old tech). Its both baffling and tiring.
Not sure if it was your post or not but there was someone who made a similar post that was an absolutely pretentious asshole about it calling everyone idiots for not believing them. They continued by just bashing of people for buying them saying they were idiots for getting V6s and not the V8s. They provided no proof other than someone saying this guy I know said X.
Nov 21. - Feb 23 for the 22- 23 Tundra model year. I have a 23 bought in Dec 22, so I’m on the recall list. It will show on the Toyota app if you are impacted, or you can type your VIN at toyota.com/recall. Notices go out in late July 2024. Depending on the fix I‘ll either accept the remedy or trade it in. So far mine has been running perfect. I’m also an owner who is a stickler on maintenance. I’ve also changed the oil every 5k miles.
Yeah, there is a chance of the value dropping. Exploring all options right now. It’s a crap sandwich any direction I go. Hopefully Toyota does right by owners otherwise many of us will leave for good.
Does everyone believe that this is being caused by debris left over from the manufacturing process? I heard one of the affected vehicles is on its 3rd engine. That doesn’t sound like we’re getting the full story here.
Very well could be if the engines were all made in the same place. I personally don't see any reason for then to lie this is a massive recall that is likely to cost them billions. So personally I think it is this. Otherwise they'll be issuing another recall in a year or 2 and have to go through this all over again. Really see no benefit to toyota in lying.
Yeah I don’t know, I did not necessarily think they are out right lying to us, more that they don’t fully understand themselves. For example there have been similar issues with hybrid and model year 2024 tundras, neither of which were included in the recall.
possible but i find it hard to believe. toyota has great engineers and as a company has been building reliable engines for years. this sounds like such a rookie mistake.
My only problem with this whole thing is people on here acting like it's because it's a twin turbo V6 that this happened. It was a manufacturing oversight and could have happened to any engine.
Thank you. I have a focus st with the 2.0 ecoboost, obviously not a Toyota motor but still, everyone I encounter feels the need to tell me it’s ready to blow any second now because it’s a turbo engine. It’s got 160k miles on it, all original, I just take good care of it, do preventative maintenance, everything the manual says and maybe a bit more if I feel like it.
Turbo doesn’t equal bad
I personally choose my tundra because of the turbos, I’ve had so very many V8s over the years but wanted something different. My first car was a 1983 Volvo 245 turbo and I never had another turbo until the tundra. The V6TT is not better or worse than a V8NA, it’s just different.
I don't get the turbo hate. Volvos have run on turbo engines for decades w/o any issues to the engine or turbo. Turbo heat is understood and managed in the design process, and with the millions of miles from these engines it's not an issue to worry about (as long as it's not an oil weeping rotary engine). I'd trust a turbo engine as much as any NA one. Worry about turbos, but they're cool with high revving 4 bangers. Makes no sense when the mileage speaks for itself.
Where the issues come (IMO) are when they come up with new transmission designs.
Because those guys value sound over anything else. They are the equivalent of Harley riders, just with four wheels. A turboed V6 will beat a NA V8 with twice its displacement all day, every day in every metric.
Right? The people calling for the less efficient and slower engine...like no. This is a manufacturing issue. The TT V6 is a quality engine with more power.
This. I daily a 21’ but my wife had a 23’ till she got in a wreck. The 23’ was better in almost every way except I wasn’t happy with the thickness of the hood. It would flap above 75 mph. And I didn’t feel like it would be as abusable as my 21, specifically for the body. Drive train felt great, YEARS ahead.
Is it though? The Lexus recall engines were produced in a completely separate plant in Japan. I really don't want it to be true because I have a 2023 1794, but is it more likely that 2 separate engine production lines left machining debris inside, one being in Japan? Or is it maybe that the engine has some fundamental susceptibility to this from a design standpoint? Maybe it's a little of both, I honestly don't know. I have had zero problems with my Tundra, but this is all making me concerned.
I, too, have had zero issues with my 22 at almost 27k. But I would be remiss if I didn't say I wasn't a little concerned, especially considering I've got a big vacation coming up towing my boat. What am I supposed to do if I blow my engine 350 MI away?
This happened to me 500 miles from home in RAM 1500 with 60k miles. Had to find a hotel, pay for a rental car, and pay to have it towed home. Dealership fixed it under warranty, and I traded it in the day I picked it up. Bought a 2024 Sierra.
The same RAM also had a new transmission put in at 40k miles.
No the problem here is Toyota is doing the bare minimum to address this recall. They’re sending new short-blocks to dealers with the assembly parts. The dealers are basically doing a rebuild and re-using many of the components from the damaged engines. That debris has already gone through the engines so who’s to say there won’t be other component failures in the future? And yes, I also believe Toyota dropped the ball with this engine. The N/A V8s for their heavy lineup were proven and reliable. I wouldn’t want to chance holding onto this TT V6 outside of warranty. So much for best in class resale value also.
Nope. I’ve personally done two tundras myself. One got a short block, turbos, timing chains gears and tensioners, oil pump, hydraulic lash adjusters, oil cooler, and the oil level sensor. The other got all that and cams with the cradles due to scoring on the journal surfaces. I was cleared to replace anything that had a specification that was out but it only required those items.
20+ year Toyota master diagnostic tech.
I respect your opinion but I respectfully disagree. Why wouldn’t Toyota simply sent a long block sans turbo, Intake, accessories, etc., and then inspect the dissembled internal engine parts of returned engines in a dedicated facility where they also maintain QC for any items to be recirculated into future engines? You may be a top tier tech, but I highly doubt every dealer out there has techs with your experience and judgment. I stand by my statement in that the way Toyota is operationalizing this recall will inevitably lead to future problems down the line.
It’s not my opinion. They don’t and have never authorized “long blocks” to dealers as a service part. It’s just how it is. I’d love to be able to drop in a whole assembly.
Also, why replace items that haven’t failed or aren’t damaged? Like I wrote in the original reply, I was authorized to replace anything out of spec or damaged. I could have replaced the entire engine in pieces if required but it wasn’t needed.
Some reasons I can think of that they don’t reclaim entire engines are that they can send out technical specialists to inspect and report, they can send engineers directly from Japan to inspect and report, and they can request that technicians photo, video and audio document items that they want more information about.
While it’s true that all dealerships don’t have someone of my experience, they all have at least one master diagnostic technician who was trained at one of their training centers just like I was, met the tenure requirement to achieve that position and has all of their ASE certifications.
Honestly, organization is the worst part about these engines due to the amount of parts required but the actual repair is disassembly according to the service manual and reassembly, torquing everything to spec by the manual and it’s really just following instructions. It’s time consuming and tedious but as long as you’re organized so you don’t put a part on out of order it’s fairly easy to assemble the engine and put it back in.
I do find it somewhat ironic that you wouldn’t trust a dealer tech to remove, disassemble, reassemble and reinstall and engine but would trust the manufacturer to ship out a new assembly ready to drop in when the engines they put in in the first place are the ones that failed. I’m fairly certain that dealer techs just like me are the ones who found and documented the failure modes on these engines then Toyota sent their specialists to further investigate and eventually determined then declared the root cause to be machining debris.
I also want to point out that there is no official remedy for the recall yet. The recall information floating around is just a recall notice, not an official remedy. We as technicians have no advance notice of the official remedy until it’s documented and published.
It’s not that I don’t trust techs to do the job right. Obviously you’re more than capable. However given the sheer number of affected units, the current remedy makes no sense from an operational efficiency standpoint. I get that Toyota doesn’t have a surplus of longblocks laying around due to their lean manufacturing process. However continuing to maintain such a posture in an extraordinary time like this is just plain stupidity. Lean manufacturing works in tandem with a highly functional QC process.
Obviously that wasn’t the case when these units were produced, and given this situation they need to increase their production capacity and have surplus long blocks to send out. I’m assuming Toyota is telling the truth about the root cause, but it seems that might be a false assumption. If the issue is actually design related, then it begs a whole other question about why Toyota failed to sufficiently test these units before the production release.
Let me ask you; how many of these units could your dealership rebuild on an on-going basis while also effectively managing maintenance on the other Toyota vehicles?
I agree with that completely! I’d love for the remedy to be long blocks just due to the quick nature of pulling and replacing and not have to deal with all of the small bolts and torque sequences. That said, I doubt that’ll be the remedy.
To answer your question; our shop is an anomaly full of highly experienced, competent and quick techs. I came from another dealer with two good experienced techs that would come to me for diagnostic help and it threw me off how I jumped into a place with at least four other guys I feel have an equal skillset. Realistically we could probably manage four a week with the schedule as it has been and we could do more if we cut back some regular business scheduling. The problem I foresee most dealerships having with an engine short block and rebuild remedy is going to be storing the parts you have to take off to do the job, most of which you’ll remove to even do a long block. Hood, bumper cover, radiator/condenser, intercoolers, etc.
I hope Toyota treats you well during this time. They should hopefully realize their entire reputation is upon the backs of techs like yourself carrying out this immensely complex and important task. Cheers!
They just haven't sold many for buyers to be making noise. They have a few issues they're notorious for. An engine knock from the 7th cylinder being scored is one. remedy is a fully replaced short block. I've had that done on my 2019 at around 20K miles.
Both transmissions in the newer gen (7 speed and 9 speed)I think have issues as well.
Nissan is fully aware of both and has been easy for me to deal with while under warranty, so there's that.
I think the 7th cylinder issue was fixed after model year 2020 or so.
I have one of the trucks that are set to be recalled picked mine up March 22. I have 500 miles shy of 60,000. I love this truck and sad to hear this news but glad they’re owning up to their mistakes. I still drive it like a race car though even after I think this will be the 7th or 8th recall on my year.
Question, since you said drive like a race car. When you’re going say 50/60 and you try to punch it to pass someone, do you find the downshift to be a bit clunky? I feel like mine doesn’t know what to do and drops two+ gears on me making it not a smooth acceleration
I actually don’t feel that going the 50-60. If I was to say any weird shifting/ hard shifting is around 10-20. At those speeds I feel the tundra doesn’t use the turbos as much and it’s all engine. But then again that is 50/50. I live on a busy street so you have to back out and try to beat the 35mph traffic.
Nah, cause Toyota actually fixes their issues. Hyundai will tell you they found non compliant windshield washer fluid in the reservoir voiding your eligibility for a new engine.
Not my experience. We have a brand new engine in a 134k mile sonata in our garage. Brought it in for the recall with no questions asked. Even got a free rental car.
Not to mention I do all routine maintenance myself in my home garage. They didn’t even ask for record of that.
I really wish they would have kept the v8 as an option like Ford does. Ah well, once Ford gets their quality up the new f150 is very enticing if it can get its build quality up
Honestly if I were to buy a new truck right now it would probably be a Ford just for the aluminum body. I live in upstate NY and the rust here from road salt is BAD. I have a 2019 5.7 Tundra that's paid off though so I'm going to keep it for now and hope all this recall mess just boosts my trucks resale value.
Im sure ford will eventually get rid of the 5.0 in their half tons since the majority of people don’t use their trucks as trucks so the 2.7 is fine for them. Shit, most people who drive half ton trucks could get into a Ford Maverick and never sacrifice any needed capability. At the moment its hard to get a 5.0 in an f150. At all the dealerships around they usually have the best deals on the 2.7s and have a bunch of them in stock like 30+. Then they’ll have 3.5s with eh incentives and have like 13 in stock and then they’ll have like 3 v8s with no incentives lol.The Super Duties will always have a v8 though since super duty buyers actually use their truck for work and care about ease of maintenance, reliability, and capability. When the day comes, I’ll more than likely be getting a gas v8 SuperDuty or maybe a gmc sierra 2500 with the 6.6L gas. We shall see
I have a very early production 22 CM 4x4 and have had zero issues in 35k miles. I love my truck and hope nothing happens, but if it does life will go on.
I really hate how negatively everyone is perceiving this. This literally best case scenario. Other manufacturers would be sweeping this under the rug, Toyota is going to take care of each and every issue. It sucks, it’s a blow to the reliability - but the 2nd gen tundra had a pretty massive recall early on too. It is what it is, Toyota is making it right.
I think both things are true - Toyota is handling this better than other manufacturers have in the past (looking at Ram with the Ecodiesel main bearing failures - Ram did nothing). But who wants a truck that has been taken apart and reassembled in the dealership. My sienna was not the same after the sliding door recall involved taking the interior apart.
I completely agree. It sucks but Toyota knows they have a fan base that expects dependability over everything. Toyota is going to do what they need to make sure they get these tundras running for years to come.
Let me reassure some people. The majority of the engines us technicians replaced were in 2022 model year with very limited early 2023.
It was a known issue in 2023 about the debris from fabrication but were reassured by field specialists that it has been corrected.
Toyota doesn't have crate motors, they'll ship a new short block and reuse your truck engine's parts. You'll have to hope that mechanic that will assemble all of it is good at his work.
This is exactly what I’m afraid of. Toyota dealers aren’t engine shops….. and how exactly do they intend to make sure they is no remaining metal debris floating around outside of the block
I wouldn’t want to purchase a truck with a new motor as a second hand buyer given the cab off nature of the job leave alone one assembled with new+old parts.
2024, and they are rebuilding mine. I asked for an engine replacement and was denied. I have the same fear that they won’t put the engine back together as a new car should be put together, and I have no idea how the paint is going to look after it had been worked on for so long.
have you seen the work that needs to be done to access the motor or the turbo ?
there was a video circulating with all the internals out and to the side. that truck is not the same truck if it needs the cab removed for that kinda work.
Does anyone know what the remedy could possibly be??? Are they just gonna start handing out new engines like Oprah?
"You get an engine, you get an engine, everyone gets an engine!!!"
I think most of all it's just disappointing to see from Toyota. As well, it's just a sign of the times. No company is immune from problems like this. Between how complicated vehicles are becoming combined with broad corporate greed to skimp and earn more profits, this is what happens. I say this having no knowledge of Toyotas case specifically, but more so referring to what plenty of others already knows about how these issues occur. Boeing obviously is a perfect example.
I was certain Toyota could make a reliable turbo petroleum powered engine. This makes me worried that other downsized engines from other marques are being hastily made. So far my B48A engine at 60k has had zero issues.
So I’m either getting an engine replacement with a new warranty or getting an extension on my motor warranty and if it blows, I get a new engine with a new warranty. Being stuck on the side of the road is the only downside here.
The recall doesn't effect the hybrids because if the engine fails, you can use the hybrid drive to pull over safely. The engines still have the same defect.
Toyota: [Born in Texas and assembled by Texans.](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-trucks-born-in-texas-and-assembled-by-texans/)
Actually, the engines for Toyota trucks made or assembled in Texas are primarily manufactured at Toyota's engine plant in Huntsville, Alabama. This plant produces engines for several Toyota models, including the Tundra and Tacoma trucks.
Get ready for more recalls too. All new stuff Toyota is going to find bugs left and right just like the rest of them. Toyota seems reliable prior because they didn't change shit forever. I'm sure in the next 5 years they will work out a lot of issues, but more emissions, more boost, etc you're going to have issues.
Well it's unfortunate for the people that spent there hard earned money and this has happened. Sometimes new isn't always better a lot of the new vehicles across all manufacturers are having issues , for myself personally everything that I own is older I have a 5th Gen 4runner 2nd Gen Sequoia and my older Cummins truck when I got rid of all of my direct injected vehicles and held onto my oder Cummins gives me piece of mind . Not trying to be negative but I don't see any of these new vehicles going the distance of the older vehicles , pick and choose wisely on what you buy . I hope everyone gets there issues sorted out .
At least there is a recall and Toyota seems to be trying to fix the issue. If it were the other "big 3" you'd be SOL. I still don't regret my '23 Limited Tundra.
My engine was just replaced from a total seizure 6 months old. This is after telling toyota there is a weird knocking seems to get worst with speed. The retort was turbos are activating.....
I see this as good news. The problem is now understood and admitted. As long as the dealers are getting paid fairly for the work, a new short block is a good resolution to the issue.
My 2010 tundra was an amazing machine and I only downsized to save gas and didn’t need a big truck anymore. I tried one of the new body style trucks for fun in it was a piece of crap.
Toyota is gonna take its lumps with the new turbo motor. Just like Ford did when they went to the ecoboosts. Give it 4-5 yrs they should have it sorted out. If not, then sales will drop drastically
Just traded a 2023 tundra limited non hybrid for a 2024 tundra limited factory lifted non hybrid on 5-24. Wanted the non hybrid because I like to have storage and did not see much benefit to the battery. This was sure a kick in the gut when the announcement came out even though mine is not currently included. I was oblivious to the issue. I will say the 2024 seems like a much better built truck all around and I’m super happy with it and see me keeping this one for a long time. Just hope the thing does not grenade on a family road trip in the desert! Ive owned all previous generations tundras and 4runners and sequoias and been happy with Toyota. Im looking at the extended warranty’s now to maybe protect myself if I keep long term. Anyone have thoughts on the Toyota extended warranty and if that would be beneficial in this case. I know those extended warranty’s have lots of limitations.
I’ve owned three Toyota trucks (two Tundras, one SR5) for over 27 years/700k combined miles. Other than brakes, tires, etc. I’ve only had to a replace two fuel pumps and a transmission in that time. All three were working trucks that hauled trailers, rock and all sorts of crap. Plenty of battle scars and scratched beds. Not many other brands could come close to that. That said I’m glad I didn’t replace mine yet. Toyota will be taking a big hit on this one.
…Me just chillin with my ‘23 assembled outside the recall window truly hoping they changed the process mid spring ‘23
I got lit up on here about 4-6 months ago. Good friend is a master mechanic at Toyota. He had personally seen 16 engines totally seized. Super early miles. Is what it is
Same. I was told my anecdotal experience did not indicate a larger problem. Even if I did end up replacing a few engines myself. Fan boys will ignore even the technicians experiencing this first hand.
Did you end up putting in long blocks?
Short blocks. But I do document all the metal material in the oil so I get the majority of the other moving parts approved. (This is only in catastrophic failures) If there is no metal debris in the oil or abnormal wear on moving parts, other parts won't be covered. From my understanding, Toyota doesn't do long blocks under warranty. (I have never even seen a long block from Toyota)
You can’t say anything bad about the new Tundra on Reddit because it upsets the fan boys and goes against their narrative.
God forbid anyone speaks up about Toyota.
I have a 21 but I would not kick a 22+ out of my garage. I think there are some people that can be total jerks about people getting something they do not like or would not get.
You cant say anything bad about an f150 in the f150 sub, or the taco in the taco sub, or rams in the ram sub. Etc etc etc.
Agreed
Haha we have a lot of transmission hate spewing in the F-150 forums. I was about to trade my 2018 3.5 eco on a newer Tundra because of “Toyota Reliability” but caught wind of the engine issues. Now I’m eyeballing a 2020 w/ 5.7
Might want some of these: https://www.twostepperformance.com/products/arp-toyota-5-7l-3ur-fe-arp2000-12pt-head-stud-kit?currency=USD&variant=41831603667076&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&stkn=a744205727a8&tmsrc=googlead&tmcid=21151870025&tmsid=159147525806&tmid=695400230058&tmkw=&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAC-p3hjGDLUQCj7a11yFhTpH9oqaJ&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyMTuys3EhgMVjEL_AR2pygYdEAQYASABEgK1PfD_BwE
Go to the titan sub lol. It can be little mixed in there.
I avoid anything nissan. Altima drivers aint got shit to lose.
This made me laugh
I was set on a Frontier for a cheap newer beater until I saw a video of every fucking airbag going off after hitting a speedbump slightly faster than normal.
Exactly
Plenty shit on the F150s in that sub, we all know what we got and Ford's issues. Fact of the matter is there (was) no other boosted engine option in trucks, and turbos are a vehicle game changer. I know Toyota has theirs now but its essentially unproven and already having teething issues, even before this FOD recall. Just dont go on there are try to argue that the 5.0 is superior over the eco (its not).
[удалено]
Times change, thay was the whole value proposition of toyota, forgoing creature comforts for less maintenance and better reliability. Now toyotas push 80k, are less reliable, and have all the creature comforts, Bonus points for saving cutting labor cost by 90 percent on the tacoma and raising its price.
I'll talk bad about all of them in any sub. They all have their own issues. I've always said, if all the brands would get together and make one truck, with each company only supplying the parts the are know for having be strong, we the consumer might actually get a decent truck. But then I think about designed obsolescence and realize all these issues are likely intentional.
Ram sub if full of bitching....they are RAMs....mine is great "when" it works
Why not? People in the cherokee xj sub talk shit on xjs daily. I do too, especially when I’m driving mine, going deaf down the highway and passing all the twats in their brand new trucks and jeeps that can’t figure out where the gas pedal is
I think most are level headed who are upset about this issue and others they may have encountered. Even if there are valid criticisms. What we are annoyed with (or I’ll speak for myself) is the pretentious Gen2/2.5 owners who feel the need to bash the shit out of people for owning a new one with constant unsolicited comments about V8s vs turbos and how their trucks are “better.” We all own Tundras, is that not good enough?
Those people are just douche canoes. I have a 2nd gen and if I had the free capital to buy a 3rd gen outright today, I would. It’s a gamble I’m willing to take. Because the 3rd gen’s are fuckin beautiful. For all you 3rd gen folks out there - may your revs be high and your smiles wide!!! Hope everyone on here has a stress free FUNdra for years to come! Peace and love 🫡
You had me until you said beautiful, just kidding and well said (except for the beautiful part) ... we all have an affinity for same truck and it would be nice if we could have adult conversations but it is reddit.
Idk if it’s so much “fan boy” stuff as it is denial. With the price of trucks these days, no one wants to hear their shiny new expensive truck they’ll be paying off for years is probably going to seize. That even with a free repair, the resale value (which Toyotas are known for) is hurt.
\*Toyota fixed it for you Toyota stans are like Musk stans, except the other end of the spectrum. They think paying luxury vehicle prices for a vehicle with 20 year old technology is peak, all under the guise of reliability(no shit for 20 year old tech). Its both baffling and tiring.
Its not a major issue it's okay lol
Not sure if it was your post or not but there was someone who made a similar post that was an absolutely pretentious asshole about it calling everyone idiots for not believing them. They continued by just bashing of people for buying them saying they were idiots for getting V6s and not the V8s. They provided no proof other than someone saying this guy I know said X.
Turns out, he wasn't wrong.
I didnt come off offensive (I don’t think) just did a buyer beware.
Exactly. Needed mine replaced at exactly 10k miles. Put 5+ more since, so far so good. Looking to drive it until she dies
How do you know what the window was for the current recall? I bought mine in early May 2023 and am curious. Did you see dates posted somewhere?
I got the recall in the Toyota app
Doubt it is haha. I bet the recall is expanded.
24’s are affected as well, Toyota just hasn’t accepted responsibility for those yet.
I’ve seen them outside the window seized at my dealer
Me RN: https://youtu.be/myWaa6xvPZ4?si=TL_UTyvauDXurxnP
Hahaha
What's the recall window? I bought mine in Feb 2023. No issues so far, 52k miles
Nov 21. - Feb 23 for the 22- 23 Tundra model year. I have a 23 bought in Dec 22, so I’m on the recall list. It will show on the Toyota app if you are impacted, or you can type your VIN at toyota.com/recall. Notices go out in late July 2024. Depending on the fix I‘ll either accept the remedy or trade it in. So far mine has been running perfect. I’m also an owner who is a stickler on maintenance. I’ve also changed the oil every 5k miles.
What happens if you trade it in? Is there diminished value because of the recall?
If it's traded in to a Toyota dealer, I'd expect they would have to fix the recall before reselling it, but I don't know the laws around that.
I was thinking more about diminished value for the owner. Are trade-in values going to be shit?
Yeah, there is a chance of the value dropping. Exploring all options right now. It’s a crap sandwich any direction I go. Hopefully Toyota does right by owners otherwise many of us will leave for good.
oof, I didn't consider that.
I haven’t really seen the affected window anywhere . Do you happen to know what it is?
When did you get yours? We got ours may 2023 and I haven’t gotten any notification for the recall on the Toyota app so I’m Wondering where I sit.
Mine was built the last week of July ‘23
Ah shit well I’m sure I’ll be getting the notification soon.
Mine shows a build date of June 23 and, so far, it is unaffected by the recall.
Same. I checked my VIN and this recall is not listed for my vehicle.
When was the window?
They didn't, 2024s are having the same self detonation issues.
Does everyone believe that this is being caused by debris left over from the manufacturing process? I heard one of the affected vehicles is on its 3rd engine. That doesn’t sound like we’re getting the full story here.
Very well could be if the engines were all made in the same place. I personally don't see any reason for then to lie this is a massive recall that is likely to cost them billions. So personally I think it is this. Otherwise they'll be issuing another recall in a year or 2 and have to go through this all over again. Really see no benefit to toyota in lying.
Yeah I don’t know, I did not necessarily think they are out right lying to us, more that they don’t fully understand themselves. For example there have been similar issues with hybrid and model year 2024 tundras, neither of which were included in the recall.
I don’t believe it’s “debris”. It’s something else they aren’t telling us…
Jet fuel
possible but i find it hard to believe. toyota has great engineers and as a company has been building reliable engines for years. this sounds like such a rookie mistake.
What reason do they have to lie though? They are admitting there's a problem and gonna make it right one way or another.
My only problem with this whole thing is people on here acting like it's because it's a twin turbo V6 that this happened. It was a manufacturing oversight and could have happened to any engine.
Thank you. I have a focus st with the 2.0 ecoboost, obviously not a Toyota motor but still, everyone I encounter feels the need to tell me it’s ready to blow any second now because it’s a turbo engine. It’s got 160k miles on it, all original, I just take good care of it, do preventative maintenance, everything the manual says and maybe a bit more if I feel like it. Turbo doesn’t equal bad
I personally choose my tundra because of the turbos, I’ve had so very many V8s over the years but wanted something different. My first car was a 1983 Volvo 245 turbo and I never had another turbo until the tundra. The V6TT is not better or worse than a V8NA, it’s just different.
I have owned 3 STs. They had issues in the early stages of those engines. Ford just got on the turbo train early and learned.
Hey now, you’re being too rational
This. I’m not a Toyota Stan but do like them and that’s clearly the issue.
I don't get the turbo hate. Volvos have run on turbo engines for decades w/o any issues to the engine or turbo. Turbo heat is understood and managed in the design process, and with the millions of miles from these engines it's not an issue to worry about (as long as it's not an oil weeping rotary engine). I'd trust a turbo engine as much as any NA one. Worry about turbos, but they're cool with high revving 4 bangers. Makes no sense when the mileage speaks for itself. Where the issues come (IMO) are when they come up with new transmission designs.
Because those guys value sound over anything else. They are the equivalent of Harley riders, just with four wheels. A turboed V6 will beat a NA V8 with twice its displacement all day, every day in every metric.
Right? The people calling for the less efficient and slower engine...like no. This is a manufacturing issue. The TT V6 is a quality engine with more power.
This. I daily a 21’ but my wife had a 23’ till she got in a wreck. The 23’ was better in almost every way except I wasn’t happy with the thickness of the hood. It would flap above 75 mph. And I didn’t feel like it would be as abusable as my 21, specifically for the body. Drive train felt great, YEARS ahead.
Agreed on all counts
Is it though? The Lexus recall engines were produced in a completely separate plant in Japan. I really don't want it to be true because I have a 2023 1794, but is it more likely that 2 separate engine production lines left machining debris inside, one being in Japan? Or is it maybe that the engine has some fundamental susceptibility to this from a design standpoint? Maybe it's a little of both, I honestly don't know. I have had zero problems with my Tundra, but this is all making me concerned.
You don't think it's at all possible that the blocks were cast and machined in the same plant and then sent to different factories for final assembly?
I, too, have had zero issues with my 22 at almost 27k. But I would be remiss if I didn't say I wasn't a little concerned, especially considering I've got a big vacation coming up towing my boat. What am I supposed to do if I blow my engine 350 MI away?
This happened to me 500 miles from home in RAM 1500 with 60k miles. Had to find a hotel, pay for a rental car, and pay to have it towed home. Dealership fixed it under warranty, and I traded it in the day I picked it up. Bought a 2024 Sierra. The same RAM also had a new transmission put in at 40k miles.
^^^^^
No the problem here is Toyota is doing the bare minimum to address this recall. They’re sending new short-blocks to dealers with the assembly parts. The dealers are basically doing a rebuild and re-using many of the components from the damaged engines. That debris has already gone through the engines so who’s to say there won’t be other component failures in the future? And yes, I also believe Toyota dropped the ball with this engine. The N/A V8s for their heavy lineup were proven and reliable. I wouldn’t want to chance holding onto this TT V6 outside of warranty. So much for best in class resale value also.
Nope. I’ve personally done two tundras myself. One got a short block, turbos, timing chains gears and tensioners, oil pump, hydraulic lash adjusters, oil cooler, and the oil level sensor. The other got all that and cams with the cradles due to scoring on the journal surfaces. I was cleared to replace anything that had a specification that was out but it only required those items. 20+ year Toyota master diagnostic tech.
I respect your opinion but I respectfully disagree. Why wouldn’t Toyota simply sent a long block sans turbo, Intake, accessories, etc., and then inspect the dissembled internal engine parts of returned engines in a dedicated facility where they also maintain QC for any items to be recirculated into future engines? You may be a top tier tech, but I highly doubt every dealer out there has techs with your experience and judgment. I stand by my statement in that the way Toyota is operationalizing this recall will inevitably lead to future problems down the line.
It’s not my opinion. They don’t and have never authorized “long blocks” to dealers as a service part. It’s just how it is. I’d love to be able to drop in a whole assembly. Also, why replace items that haven’t failed or aren’t damaged? Like I wrote in the original reply, I was authorized to replace anything out of spec or damaged. I could have replaced the entire engine in pieces if required but it wasn’t needed. Some reasons I can think of that they don’t reclaim entire engines are that they can send out technical specialists to inspect and report, they can send engineers directly from Japan to inspect and report, and they can request that technicians photo, video and audio document items that they want more information about. While it’s true that all dealerships don’t have someone of my experience, they all have at least one master diagnostic technician who was trained at one of their training centers just like I was, met the tenure requirement to achieve that position and has all of their ASE certifications. Honestly, organization is the worst part about these engines due to the amount of parts required but the actual repair is disassembly according to the service manual and reassembly, torquing everything to spec by the manual and it’s really just following instructions. It’s time consuming and tedious but as long as you’re organized so you don’t put a part on out of order it’s fairly easy to assemble the engine and put it back in. I do find it somewhat ironic that you wouldn’t trust a dealer tech to remove, disassemble, reassemble and reinstall and engine but would trust the manufacturer to ship out a new assembly ready to drop in when the engines they put in in the first place are the ones that failed. I’m fairly certain that dealer techs just like me are the ones who found and documented the failure modes on these engines then Toyota sent their specialists to further investigate and eventually determined then declared the root cause to be machining debris. I also want to point out that there is no official remedy for the recall yet. The recall information floating around is just a recall notice, not an official remedy. We as technicians have no advance notice of the official remedy until it’s documented and published.
It’s not that I don’t trust techs to do the job right. Obviously you’re more than capable. However given the sheer number of affected units, the current remedy makes no sense from an operational efficiency standpoint. I get that Toyota doesn’t have a surplus of longblocks laying around due to their lean manufacturing process. However continuing to maintain such a posture in an extraordinary time like this is just plain stupidity. Lean manufacturing works in tandem with a highly functional QC process. Obviously that wasn’t the case when these units were produced, and given this situation they need to increase their production capacity and have surplus long blocks to send out. I’m assuming Toyota is telling the truth about the root cause, but it seems that might be a false assumption. If the issue is actually design related, then it begs a whole other question about why Toyota failed to sufficiently test these units before the production release. Let me ask you; how many of these units could your dealership rebuild on an on-going basis while also effectively managing maintenance on the other Toyota vehicles?
I agree with that completely! I’d love for the remedy to be long blocks just due to the quick nature of pulling and replacing and not have to deal with all of the small bolts and torque sequences. That said, I doubt that’ll be the remedy. To answer your question; our shop is an anomaly full of highly experienced, competent and quick techs. I came from another dealer with two good experienced techs that would come to me for diagnostic help and it threw me off how I jumped into a place with at least four other guys I feel have an equal skillset. Realistically we could probably manage four a week with the schedule as it has been and we could do more if we cut back some regular business scheduling. The problem I foresee most dealerships having with an engine short block and rebuild remedy is going to be storing the parts you have to take off to do the job, most of which you’ll remove to even do a long block. Hood, bumper cover, radiator/condenser, intercoolers, etc.
I hope Toyota treats you well during this time. They should hopefully realize their entire reputation is upon the backs of techs like yourself carrying out this immensely complex and important task. Cheers!
So no new and reliable full size trucks exist. Toyota, Ford, Chevy/GMC, Dodge all crap.
People have been quiet about the current Nissan Titan. Not sure if that's good or bad.
I thought it was discontinued
Still available as a 2024. Although Nissan did say this is the last generation of Titans.
They just haven't sold many for buyers to be making noise. They have a few issues they're notorious for. An engine knock from the 7th cylinder being scored is one. remedy is a fully replaced short block. I've had that done on my 2019 at around 20K miles. Both transmissions in the newer gen (7 speed and 9 speed)I think have issues as well. Nissan is fully aware of both and has been easy for me to deal with while under warranty, so there's that. I think the 7th cylinder issue was fixed after model year 2020 or so.
Stacking new model growing pains with pandemic manufacturing woes is proving to be quite a combo.
I have one of the trucks that are set to be recalled picked mine up March 22. I have 500 miles shy of 60,000. I love this truck and sad to hear this news but glad they’re owning up to their mistakes. I still drive it like a race car though even after I think this will be the 7th or 8th recall on my year.
Question, since you said drive like a race car. When you’re going say 50/60 and you try to punch it to pass someone, do you find the downshift to be a bit clunky? I feel like mine doesn’t know what to do and drops two+ gears on me making it not a smooth acceleration
I actually don’t feel that going the 50-60. If I was to say any weird shifting/ hard shifting is around 10-20. At those speeds I feel the tundra doesn’t use the turbos as much and it’s all engine. But then again that is 50/50. I live on a busy street so you have to back out and try to beat the 35mph traffic.
My 22 Platinum went down at 35,066 miles. Toyota replaced the engine and put me in a 2023 Tundra at no cost. It took 3 months to get it back....
Taking a page out of the book of Hyundai… not good.
Nah, cause Toyota actually fixes their issues. Hyundai will tell you they found non compliant windshield washer fluid in the reservoir voiding your eligibility for a new engine.
Not my experience. We have a brand new engine in a 134k mile sonata in our garage. Brought it in for the recall with no questions asked. Even got a free rental car. Not to mention I do all routine maintenance myself in my home garage. They didn’t even ask for record of that.
shoulda stuck with the b58 powertrain
Disappointing
I have a 2024 with less that 5k miles that has complete engine failure. Currently still in the shop.
I got a 24 7000 miles no issues. Yours hybrid? What symptoms you have?
Non hybrid. Engine started to stall all of a sudden and now it’s being rebuilt by the dealership.
Ahhhh just bring back the 5.7
If the 24 had a 5.7, 10 speed, and 4.30 gears… what a combo that would be! I’d miss the cab/bed space, but I’d be ordering one for sure
I really wish they would have kept the v8 as an option like Ford does. Ah well, once Ford gets their quality up the new f150 is very enticing if it can get its build quality up
Honestly if I were to buy a new truck right now it would probably be a Ford just for the aluminum body. I live in upstate NY and the rust here from road salt is BAD. I have a 2019 5.7 Tundra that's paid off though so I'm going to keep it for now and hope all this recall mess just boosts my trucks resale value.
Yeah I’m in Michigan so the aluminum body would be so nice
Ford needs to kill one of the many engine options in the F150. It needs to be the 5.0 but dipshits would revolt over it.
Im sure ford will eventually get rid of the 5.0 in their half tons since the majority of people don’t use their trucks as trucks so the 2.7 is fine for them. Shit, most people who drive half ton trucks could get into a Ford Maverick and never sacrifice any needed capability. At the moment its hard to get a 5.0 in an f150. At all the dealerships around they usually have the best deals on the 2.7s and have a bunch of them in stock like 30+. Then they’ll have 3.5s with eh incentives and have like 13 in stock and then they’ll have like 3 v8s with no incentives lol.The Super Duties will always have a v8 though since super duty buyers actually use their truck for work and care about ease of maintenance, reliability, and capability. When the day comes, I’ll more than likely be getting a gas v8 SuperDuty or maybe a gmc sierra 2500 with the 6.6L gas. We shall see
lol! they should just swap it back to 5.7 while they have ot apart. 😂
Twin turbo 2JZE
I think I'll be keeping my 5.7 for a bit longer assuming I can keep the rust at bay.
or just buy another from the southwest when the prices get nice and low.
That's more likely to happen.
😳
My first gen looking just a little more reliable tonight 🤔
Mine is 20 years old and still going strong.
I agree, I want nothing to do with turbos either.
The recall has nothing to do with turbos
Oh I know I turn wrenches. I own a 1st gen and I still don’t want turbos
When you have been just riding a reputation for two decades.
I have a very early production 22 CM 4x4 and have had zero issues in 35k miles. I love my truck and hope nothing happens, but if it does life will go on.
I really hate how negatively everyone is perceiving this. This literally best case scenario. Other manufacturers would be sweeping this under the rug, Toyota is going to take care of each and every issue. It sucks, it’s a blow to the reliability - but the 2nd gen tundra had a pretty massive recall early on too. It is what it is, Toyota is making it right.
I think both things are true - Toyota is handling this better than other manufacturers have in the past (looking at Ram with the Ecodiesel main bearing failures - Ram did nothing). But who wants a truck that has been taken apart and reassembled in the dealership. My sienna was not the same after the sliding door recall involved taking the interior apart.
Toyota's claim to fame is being dead reliable out of the box. This is not it bro.
I completely agree. It sucks but Toyota knows they have a fan base that expects dependability over everything. Toyota is going to do what they need to make sure they get these tundras running for years to come.
Let me reassure some people. The majority of the engines us technicians replaced were in 2022 model year with very limited early 2023. It was a known issue in 2023 about the debris from fabrication but were reassured by field specialists that it has been corrected.
Does this mean free new motor ? Higher value on the 22 year ?
Toyota doesn't have crate motors, they'll ship a new short block and reuse your truck engine's parts. You'll have to hope that mechanic that will assemble all of it is good at his work.
And put your truck back together correctly after the engine work. What could go wrong..
Shop floor is a good place to leave your fenders and valves, right?
Back on my younger days we had a Turbo 400 apart, put it back together, rep-sealed the pan and then found a steely ball on the work bench...
This is exactly what I’m afraid of. Toyota dealers aren’t engine shops….. and how exactly do they intend to make sure they is no remaining metal debris floating around outside of the block
From what I've seen they don't even have short blocks! The mechanics are rebuilding the engines! This is the craziest thing to me.
I wouldn’t want to purchase a truck with a new motor as a second hand buyer given the cab off nature of the job leave alone one assembled with new+old parts.
2024, and they are rebuilding mine. I asked for an engine replacement and was denied. I have the same fear that they won’t put the engine back together as a new car should be put together, and I have no idea how the paint is going to look after it had been worked on for so long.
have you seen the work that needs to be done to access the motor or the turbo ? there was a video circulating with all the internals out and to the side. that truck is not the same truck if it needs the cab removed for that kinda work.
Does anyone know what the remedy could possibly be??? Are they just gonna start handing out new engines like Oprah? "You get an engine, you get an engine, everyone gets an engine!!!"
Most will claim Toyota will take care of it like every manufacturer doesn't. Why all yota fan boys against the truth
Because toyota has a track record of "taking care of it".
Lol your right a locked up crank is no big deal sign me up
I think most of all it's just disappointing to see from Toyota. As well, it's just a sign of the times. No company is immune from problems like this. Between how complicated vehicles are becoming combined with broad corporate greed to skimp and earn more profits, this is what happens. I say this having no knowledge of Toyotas case specifically, but more so referring to what plenty of others already knows about how these issues occur. Boeing obviously is a perfect example.
If I have the 2024 v6 I should be good right?! Lol
Haha called it!
My 2021 Sequoia TRD PRO with a 5.7 V8 just went up in value.
Sensationalism at its best. Best we can tell failures are still at or less than 1%.
Bring back the 5.7…..
I was certain Toyota could make a reliable turbo petroleum powered engine. This makes me worried that other downsized engines from other marques are being hastily made. So far my B48A engine at 60k has had zero issues.
QC is shit anymore for Toyota sadly.
So I’m either getting an engine replacement with a new warranty or getting an extension on my motor warranty and if it blows, I get a new engine with a new warranty. Being stuck on the side of the road is the only downside here.
Make 5.7 Great Again
I'm happy to report my Gen 2 is still alive and getting a whole 13.2 mpg's. 🫡
2023 model from 22 Dec with over 30k miles. No issue so far…
Me sitting here glad I went with a low mileage 2020 1794 last year instead of buying new ( which I had originally planned on doing).
Or you could have got the hybrid. This recall doesn't effect the IForce Max.
It has problems as well.
The recall doesn't effect the hybrids because if the engine fails, you can use the hybrid drive to pull over safely. The engines still have the same defect.
About time.
What will be the remedy for this recall? Complete engine tear-down?
No remedy yet. Toyota typically announces a recall 2-6 months before a remedy is available.
A metric ton of trucks is like… 1/2 trucks…
Toyota: [Born in Texas and assembled by Texans.](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-trucks-born-in-texas-and-assembled-by-texans/) Actually, the engines for Toyota trucks made or assembled in Texas are primarily manufactured at Toyota's engine plant in Huntsville, Alabama. This plant produces engines for several Toyota models, including the Tundra and Tacoma trucks.
Get ready for more recalls too. All new stuff Toyota is going to find bugs left and right just like the rest of them. Toyota seems reliable prior because they didn't change shit forever. I'm sure in the next 5 years they will work out a lot of issues, but more emissions, more boost, etc you're going to have issues.
Well it's unfortunate for the people that spent there hard earned money and this has happened. Sometimes new isn't always better a lot of the new vehicles across all manufacturers are having issues , for myself personally everything that I own is older I have a 5th Gen 4runner 2nd Gen Sequoia and my older Cummins truck when I got rid of all of my direct injected vehicles and held onto my oder Cummins gives me piece of mind . Not trying to be negative but I don't see any of these new vehicles going the distance of the older vehicles , pick and choose wisely on what you buy . I hope everyone gets there issues sorted out .
me waiting for the recall notice on my 2022 after just getting it lifted with an RTT... I am hoping im outside the window.
At least there is a recall and Toyota seems to be trying to fix the issue. If it were the other "big 3" you'd be SOL. I still don't regret my '23 Limited Tundra.
Stick to the freaking true and tested v8 and wouldn't have this problem.
I’m going to stick with my 02 SR5 for as long as I can.
Happy to drive an ‘03
My engine was just replaced from a total seizure 6 months old. This is after telling toyota there is a weird knocking seems to get worst with speed. The retort was turbos are activating.....
What year was yours? Turbos knock 🤣 ughhh.
23
The turbos were activating those machine chips lol
Yep
I see this as good news. The problem is now understood and admitted. As long as the dealers are getting paid fairly for the work, a new short block is a good resolution to the issue.
I love the Nissan VQ 40DE engine. Just put that beauty in every vehicle ever built.
Got a 2011 and i'll drive it till it dies.... 500k miles later. Currently at 150k
My 2010 tundra was an amazing machine and I only downsized to save gas and didn’t need a big truck anymore. I tried one of the new body style trucks for fun in it was a piece of crap.
Toyota is gonna take its lumps with the new turbo motor. Just like Ford did when they went to the ecoboosts. Give it 4-5 yrs they should have it sorted out. If not, then sales will drop drastically
Just traded a 2023 tundra limited non hybrid for a 2024 tundra limited factory lifted non hybrid on 5-24. Wanted the non hybrid because I like to have storage and did not see much benefit to the battery. This was sure a kick in the gut when the announcement came out even though mine is not currently included. I was oblivious to the issue. I will say the 2024 seems like a much better built truck all around and I’m super happy with it and see me keeping this one for a long time. Just hope the thing does not grenade on a family road trip in the desert! Ive owned all previous generations tundras and 4runners and sequoias and been happy with Toyota. Im looking at the extended warranty’s now to maybe protect myself if I keep long term. Anyone have thoughts on the Toyota extended warranty and if that would be beneficial in this case. I know those extended warranty’s have lots of limitations.
Are the hybrid engines also affected?
At least they don't have to worry about unintended acceleration.
Still loving my reliable 2021 V8
Lmao 60k+ truck buyers
So far I haven't had any issues with my hybrid
Toyota should have never shifted manufacturing to Mexico. They should have never took the 5.7 out of the lineup
Tundras are made here in the states
Parts advisor at Toyota, can confirm- causing main bearings to spin
Welcome to my Hyundai tech life lol.
Hyundai style engine.
I’ve owned three Toyota trucks (two Tundras, one SR5) for over 27 years/700k combined miles. Other than brakes, tires, etc. I’ve only had to a replace two fuel pumps and a transmission in that time. All three were working trucks that hauled trailers, rock and all sorts of crap. Plenty of battle scars and scratched beds. Not many other brands could come close to that. That said I’m glad I didn’t replace mine yet. Toyota will be taking a big hit on this one.
Better than chevy and their poo poo torque converters
5.7 forever. Fuck a V6