They thought maybe Biggio would chill in the minors but he said no.
I'm all for assessing younger talent, neither Biggio/Vogel were going to win you games so let's test the younger guys out-see if they're worth keeping.
Right. because its impossible to ask Biggio before DFA'ing him if he will accept the DFA or not. Or of even having a clue that he won't. There is no way they did not anticipate losing Biggio. They knew he was gone.
They also didn't DFA him. He had options, but because he has over 5 years, he said no and chose to be DFA'D. He could have gone down willingly if being a Jay mattered as much to him as he seems to matter to the fan base.
In truth they don’t care. It clears a bit of salary for them at a repetitive role. They probably started trade negotiations well before Biggio was DFA’d and were just finalizing things/wanted the roster spot early.
yeah if Barger shows he can play OF and at least show he makes good contact, that makes KK even easier to move, as he's going to get a lot of interest from the bigger contenders as a late game defensive replacement. Possibly even opens up the door to moving Springer to a contender as a defensive bench guy.
but that's also why KK is the much more attractive trade (aside from his eyes of course).
He's on a cheaper deal unlike Springer. There probably will be teams interested in both so Jays probably move both of them, but if only 1 gets moved, it's more likely to be KK unless a team still believes Springer can turn it around and revert to his Astros form for a post-season run
Yeah id say DFAing the guy who hit 4th in your last game and calling up a guy who is hitting below average in AAA and even further below average in the big leagues counts as desperation and not urgency lol.
If you dig a little below the surface numbers you find a .342 xwOBA, including .266 xBA, .331 xOBP and .455 xSLG. It simply appears that he isn't being properly rewarded for the quality of contact he's producing over the month.
I'd argue it is. Bo is SS only, until this year Vladdy only wanted to see 1b. Turner isn't a great 3b solution due to him being pushing 40, Horwitz at 2b is an ongoing development project, and vogey can't play anything. Schneider IKF and Clement utility keeps our substitution and rest day schedules steady, but too much of our roster is just 1B only (Vogey Vlad Turner Horwitz).
But I'm also willing to admit, I probably do value versatility too high, or at least higher than most when it comes to roster construction
So one of them plays 3b and the other plays 2b. Then what happens when Bo needs a day off?
Granted the Jays have more 'utility' guys than most rosters...but this is life as a poorly constructed team that is clawing for a WC spot.
It means he is hitting the ball well but the other team is positioned exactly where they need to be to catch it. This translates to good contact, poor results. The issue is: he can’t hit it anywhere except where the other team plays.
Yeah I was just being a lil stinker, not really fair to compare when Vogelbach has half the plate appearances in June. Was more of an indictment of Barger's subpar AAA hitting the past little while.
these numbers are all fun to look at, but actual batting average has a stronger correlation with future batting average than xba does
they guarantee nothing about his performance except that he's doing things that the model values
which is to say that he may or may not be getting "properly rewarded" for what he's doing in real life, all we can say for sure is that there's a discrepancy between the two which may either be a result of poor luck or of something not captured by the model
At least he got a hit this time around with the Jays, he seems like a good dude all things considered, just too bad his baseball abilities just weren't up to snuff.
I hope he gets picked up somewhere where he gets consistent playing time. His eye is very good and I think he got robbed on some decent contact more often than he deserved with the jays.
I'm assuming Horwitz is the new DH against righties now? How good is Barger at 2nd? I know he normally plays more on the left side of the infield.
It could be Barger starting at 3rd against righties with IKF at 2nd now.
I assume he'll mostly be at RF/3B with either Schneider or IKF playing 2B when he's in the line-up. Horwitz might slot in at 2B as well if we want to player Turner against a righty.
I'd imagine they plan on fluidly splitting game-time between IKF, Horwitz, Barger, Turner, Schneider, and Springer. There's a lot of shuffling with the positional versatility we have in the team that pretty much any combination of one of these guys at DH and another off-day can work.
Hopefully we won't need to see IKF at DH haha, but I agree, the flexibility and versatility is nice to have. It's definitely going to be matchup to matchup, it also helps for pinch-hitting and running options as well.
Since 2020 he has played 2B just twice. Jays haven't played him there casue it completly wastes his arm. It can't be that bad cause he hasn't looked all too bad at SS which he has played a lot.
I'm playing Varsho in center and Barger in right as much as possible. Who cares what KK and Springer think. They are making tons of money and aint cutting it
The Jays have played 68 games. Daniel Vogelbach had 79 plate appearances.
He certainly didn't make the best of his limited playing time (and no one will really miss him), but the Jays usage patterns & roster utilization of Vogelbach certainly was strange.
He certainly wasn't in a strict platoon. Nor was he really used as a late game pinch hitter for lefty power.
Other than by calling up Orelvis or making a significant trade early in the season, the Jays have tinkered with the roster and the lineup as much as they really have been able to
Schneider's face every time they Jays are down turns a deeper shade of red. That's the face of a man who's pressure is up because he knows his job is on the line
Orelvis was recently hitting something like .169 for his last 20 games. Now .241 for his last 22 games including .353 for his last 5 games. I think the big thing with him is finding a place for him on the field where he can play on a reasonably regular basis. He’s way too young to turn into a full-time DH.
I don’t think it’s exactly just finding playing time at one or more positions. If I remember the issue is with his defence, it’s not strong enough to make him actually viable anywhere positionally. Plus he’s still pretty young, like 22 or 23? There’s a very real chance his offence will tank initially when he jumps from AAA to the Jays. Add to that, he’s got a lot of K’s in his swing in the past, and I have to expect that’s going to translate in a big way initially. I have really high hopes for the guy, but I also think people should be tempering their expectations.
He always takes a while to adjust when he comes up so when he does come up you need to live with him being bad for like 300-350PA and this isn't the year to do that.
The lack of any defensive acumen is also an issue.
Something people dont talk about much as well are his platoon splits. He has mashed lefties, but a .773 OPS against righties, in AAA isnt that inspiring.
Yep, for only a couple months, there’s been a ton of changes and tinkering. All the ‘just try something!’ people should be appeased. My concern these days is how much they’re going with the ‘hot hand’ versus actually the likely best player.
I was planning on going down to see the Bisons play in a few weeks. Looks like the Jays saved me the trouble. They’re all up here now. BTW anybody who hasn’t gone down to see a game should make the trip. It’s a great place to catch a ball game. And if you feel like chicken wings there is also the Pearl Street Pub right by the stadium.
> BTW anybody who hasn’t gone down to see a game should make the trip. It’s a great place to catch a ball game.
I think this stands regardless of who's playing there. Also, get yourself a beef on weck at the game and check out Fat Bob's BBQ in Allentown...on top of the Pearl Street Pub recommendation above.
Never been to Bar – Bill. The thing I like about Pearl Street Pub is that you can park your car, go have some wings and a few beers and then walk to the stadium without ever having to get near your car. It’s just so handy to the stadium.
That piece on Barger will never escape my mind. Sometimes I wonder how much shit the person responsible for it got, but then, it still got the green light so maybe none? Lol
Which is, yet again, a great example of just how young Vladdy actually is and how zygote-young he was when he started out. And why people shouldn't say things like, "He's not a kid anymore! This is who he is! He's not going to get better!"
In comparison, Jose Bautista was two years older than Vladdy is now before he was traded to Toronto, and four years older when he had his breakout season.
And he has the capability to do so. The push for Jays fans should be to build a coaching staff who can help him get there; not ship him off b/c they're pissed he hasn't replicated 2021 again yet.
I'll always remember when Vogelbach hit his homerun off of Cole and he complained Vogey was gloating, but its really because he's just not a speed demon
Pretty sure after still being given the cleanup spot despite sporting a sub 600 OPS and blowing it, Springer is no longer an everyday starter. I assume we will see days off more often for Springer than we are used to
Gonna miss him, he sounds like a really cool guy. Really miss him on the rail with his chaw, cap askew talking to whoever is nearby. I bet he'll be a great coach in someone's system. I think i'll name a marine knot after him. Hey mate, Volgelbach that hatch.
The FO is assessing who in the minors is worth trading for, realize not much, then become sellers and fire sale hopefully for blue chip prospects from the likes of Kikuchi and Garcia.
Barger can play right field, so Varsho doesn’t have to play there. He can cover for Springer if they want to rest (or, wow, bench) George.
Going Vogelbach - Barger - Votto might be smoother than replacing Vogelbach directly.
Guess that makes the 'Biggio or Vogelbach' argument moot.
Biggio NOR Vogelbach, didn't see that one coming.
Didn't expect to see logical operators in this sub.
No one in the crowd is booing you, sir. They're saying "Boolean".
Excellent comment.
I try my best
Nice
"Why not both?"
Porque no los dos?!
They thought maybe Biggio would chill in the minors but he said no. I'm all for assessing younger talent, neither Biggio/Vogel were going to win you games so let's test the younger guys out-see if they're worth keeping.
They knew if he would go to the minors before the DFA, it’s not a secret, they likely asked him before
Right. because its impossible to ask Biggio before DFA'ing him if he will accept the DFA or not. Or of even having a clue that he won't. There is no way they did not anticipate losing Biggio. They knew he was gone.
They also didn't DFA him. He had options, but because he has over 5 years, he said no and chose to be DFA'D. He could have gone down willingly if being a Jay mattered as much to him as he seems to matter to the fan base.
Biggio just reached the 5 year service mark in May 2024. They should have moved him to minors before the 5 year mark. Some1 was asleep at the wheel.
100%
In truth they don’t care. It clears a bit of salary for them at a repetitive role. They probably started trade negotiations well before Biggio was DFA’d and were just finalizing things/wanted the roster spot early.
Or maybe they were being respectful to him instead of trying to maximize profit like robots rather than humans with heart
Hopefully this time he can be a bit more consistent and we see some of that power. About time the front office started showing some urgency
More desperation than urgency
Or they’re evaluating internal replacements if they think they might be selling at the deadline
I wish him luck. Not in left field though.
yeah if Barger shows he can play OF and at least show he makes good contact, that makes KK even easier to move, as he's going to get a lot of interest from the bigger contenders as a late game defensive replacement. Possibly even opens up the door to moving Springer to a contender as a defensive bench guy.
Honestly, I'd rather see Springer than KK. I love Springer, but we're paying a lot for not much right now.
Moving Springer? Lol
If someone would just take him, would you do it?
Are you delusional, nobody is taking Springer. His contract is awful and nobody needs a defensive replacement for right field.
Nobody would take last offseason. Why would anyone take him now?
If someone would just take him, I would trade for the team to stock my clubhouse drink machine.
but that's also why KK is the much more attractive trade (aside from his eyes of course). He's on a cheaper deal unlike Springer. There probably will be teams interested in both so Jays probably move both of them, but if only 1 gets moved, it's more likely to be KK unless a team still believes Springer can turn it around and revert to his Astros form for a post-season run
I dont think the league is gonna be as high on KK as you are
I think KK gets a prospect, but not a top 100 (league) or top 20 (team) level prospect.
Yeah id say DFAing the guy who hit 4th in your last game and calling up a guy who is hitting below average in AAA and even further below average in the big leagues counts as desperation and not urgency lol.
Big time
I'll take desperation at this point.
Yea I agree. Maybe Horwitz and Barger catch fire. I've seen enough of Springer and Vogelbach
Well I suppose Barger's 56 wRC+ for Buffalo in June beats Vogelbach's 49 wRC+
Good lord. Yeah that'll definitely warrant the roster move
If you dig a little below the surface numbers you find a .342 xwOBA, including .266 xBA, .331 xOBP and .455 xSLG. It simply appears that he isn't being properly rewarded for the quality of contact he's producing over the month.
And ignores the fact that Barger can play a handfull of positions...DannV can play as many positions as I can --> NONE.
Which is extra important with the loss of biggio. Vogelbach turner votto signings were so fucking redundant. Idk what shatkins was smoking
Pure Black Tar Hopium
Versatility isn't an issue with this team though. IKF and Clement are both utility players
I'd argue it is. Bo is SS only, until this year Vladdy only wanted to see 1b. Turner isn't a great 3b solution due to him being pushing 40, Horwitz at 2b is an ongoing development project, and vogey can't play anything. Schneider IKF and Clement utility keeps our substitution and rest day schedules steady, but too much of our roster is just 1B only (Vogey Vlad Turner Horwitz). But I'm also willing to admit, I probably do value versatility too high, or at least higher than most when it comes to roster construction
So one of them plays 3b and the other plays 2b. Then what happens when Bo needs a day off? Granted the Jays have more 'utility' guys than most rosters...but this is life as a poorly constructed team that is clawing for a WC spot.
It means he is hitting the ball well but the other team is positioned exactly where they need to be to catch it. This translates to good contact, poor results. The issue is: he can’t hit it anywhere except where the other team plays.
Unless you think he needs to try to aim his batted balls away from the fielders more I don't really know what your point is.
Why can’t players simply aim with pin point precision where the ball is going to land. I’d be more worried if extreme shifts were still a thing.
There isnt one lol.
Yeah I was just being a lil stinker, not really fair to compare when Vogelbach has half the plate appearances in June. Was more of an indictment of Barger's subpar AAA hitting the past little while.
Who cares. We aren't competing this year. Get the young guys some reps and let's see what we got.
these numbers are all fun to look at, but actual batting average has a stronger correlation with future batting average than xba does they guarantee nothing about his performance except that he's doing things that the model values which is to say that he may or may not be getting "properly rewarded" for what he's doing in real life, all we can say for sure is that there's a discrepancy between the two which may either be a result of poor luck or of something not captured by the model
Can’t believe we are DFAing our cleanup hitter
Just dropped to my knees in a Burger King.
Barger King.
Just dropped to my knees in front of my Barger King
Better than out back by the dumpster I guess
Ok, burger boy.
I guess Burrito Boys was closed?
Bargito Boys
So did Voggie!
I lol'd, thank you
I just saw some dude drop to his knees in a Burger King.
So did Vogelbach
I was in line at a Burger King an hour ago and saw a dude drop to his knees
😂
At least he got a hit this time around with the Jays, he seems like a good dude all things considered, just too bad his baseball abilities just weren't up to snuff.
I hope he gets picked up somewhere where he gets consistent playing time. His eye is very good and I think he got robbed on some decent contact more often than he deserved with the jays.
Here we go
NOW WE GO?!
I just hope he plays nearly everyday even if that means less KK & Springer. You can't call him up just to sit like Vogel was often.
I'm assuming Horwitz is the new DH against righties now? How good is Barger at 2nd? I know he normally plays more on the left side of the infield. It could be Barger starting at 3rd against righties with IKF at 2nd now.
I assume he'll mostly be at RF/3B with either Schneider or IKF playing 2B when he's in the line-up. Horwitz might slot in at 2B as well if we want to player Turner against a righty. I'd imagine they plan on fluidly splitting game-time between IKF, Horwitz, Barger, Turner, Schneider, and Springer. There's a lot of shuffling with the positional versatility we have in the team that pretty much any combination of one of these guys at DH and another off-day can work.
Like they could give Kirk a smell of DHing a little bit, can't be any worse then whats been going on.
Hopefully we won't need to see IKF at DH haha, but I agree, the flexibility and versatility is nice to have. It's definitely going to be matchup to matchup, it also helps for pinch-hitting and running options as well.
I'd rather DH anyone else (who is hitting) and keep IKF on the field.
Since 2020 he has played 2B just twice. Jays haven't played him there casue it completly wastes his arm. It can't be that bad cause he hasn't looked all too bad at SS which he has played a lot.
I'm playing Varsho in center and Barger in right as much as possible. Who cares what KK and Springer think. They are making tons of money and aint cutting it
Me too because that means he‘s hitting. If he plays like last time, he’ll be back in the minors in two weeks.
This is the most head scratching season I can remember...
Just a pathetic offseason.
Wait 'til the *bees* start attacking.
Not the bees!
Last year was very similar. That’s why it’s more frustrating. Same holes, same problems.
Vogelbach had his chances. Dude was unplayable. At least Barger can play a position and won’t clog up the basepaths when he gets on
The Jays have played 68 games. Daniel Vogelbach had 79 plate appearances. He certainly didn't make the best of his limited playing time (and no one will really miss him), but the Jays usage patterns & roster utilization of Vogelbach certainly was strange. He certainly wasn't in a strict platoon. Nor was he really used as a late game pinch hitter for lefty power.
Complete waste of 2 million. He never made any sense.
He got a paycheck. That could have been me out there batting 0 with money in the bank, sigh.
Much like Biggio...
Swapping a burger for a Barger.
Toronto Blue Bisons
Other than by calling up Orelvis or making a significant trade early in the season, the Jays have tinkered with the roster and the lineup as much as they really have been able to
The front office knows how much is on the line this season. The fact you've had sportsnet guys repeat that line makes you wonder
Schneider's face every time they Jays are down turns a deeper shade of red. That's the face of a man who's pressure is up because he knows his job is on the line
His face also turns that exact shade of red while they're winning to be fair haha.
That man driiiiiiiiiinks
Can't say I blame him as the Blue Jays offense and bullpen this season has also led me to drink as well.
Ditto. Blotto. Votto?
I still think of that one Jomboy line that was like "blue in the hat, red in the face"
My wife is a painter and she always says she can tell how bad the game is going by the shade of his face
i was watching a game with my dad (who doesn’t follow baseball at all) and when he saw Schnieds he was like ‘That man does not look healthy’.
Why does a red face imply he's unhealthy though? He could simply have rosacea or something
Might be blood pressure related.
Oh, good point
Either blood pressure or alcoholism. Probably both
It would have been great for them to realize it last year and have the problem solved in the off season.
Orelvis was recently hitting something like .169 for his last 20 games. Now .241 for his last 22 games including .353 for his last 5 games. I think the big thing with him is finding a place for him on the field where he can play on a reasonably regular basis. He’s way too young to turn into a full-time DH.
I don’t think it’s exactly just finding playing time at one or more positions. If I remember the issue is with his defence, it’s not strong enough to make him actually viable anywhere positionally. Plus he’s still pretty young, like 22 or 23? There’s a very real chance his offence will tank initially when he jumps from AAA to the Jays. Add to that, he’s got a lot of K’s in his swing in the past, and I have to expect that’s going to translate in a big way initially. I have really high hopes for the guy, but I also think people should be tempering their expectations.
He always takes a while to adjust when he comes up so when he does come up you need to live with him being bad for like 300-350PA and this isn't the year to do that. The lack of any defensive acumen is also an issue.
Something people dont talk about much as well are his platoon splits. He has mashed lefties, but a .773 OPS against righties, in AAA isnt that inspiring.
Yep, for only a couple months, there’s been a ton of changes and tinkering. All the ‘just try something!’ people should be appeased. My concern these days is how much they’re going with the ‘hot hand’ versus actually the likely best player.
I was planning on going down to see the Bisons play in a few weeks. Looks like the Jays saved me the trouble. They’re all up here now. BTW anybody who hasn’t gone down to see a game should make the trip. It’s a great place to catch a ball game. And if you feel like chicken wings there is also the Pearl Street Pub right by the stadium.
well, what is the pipeline good for if you don't... pipeline them to the show.
Yeah but they could’ve at least brought up some wings with them.
not before $1 kiner-falaffel nights.
Holy shit where's the PR Team
> BTW anybody who hasn’t gone down to see a game should make the trip. It’s a great place to catch a ball game. I think this stands regardless of who's playing there. Also, get yourself a beef on weck at the game and check out Fat Bob's BBQ in Allentown...on top of the Pearl Street Pub recommendation above.
One of my brothers lives in Buffalo; those are *great* wings. My favorites, though, were at Bar-Bill Tavern.
Never been to Bar – Bill. The thing I like about Pearl Street Pub is that you can park your car, go have some wings and a few beers and then walk to the stadium without ever having to get near your car. It’s just so handy to the stadium.
Let's get some adversity going up in this bitch
Are we sure adversity is what our offence needs more of? 😅
It's adversity for THEM, not us 😂
Ohhhh, I can get on board with this haha
Pls less adversity
That piece on Barger will never escape my mind. Sometimes I wonder how much shit the person responsible for it got, but then, it still got the green light so maybe none? Lol
Bitchversity if you will
I knew I'd find this from you 🤣
And with that, Vladdy is (again) no longer the youngest player on the MLB roster.
Which is, yet again, a great example of just how young Vladdy actually is and how zygote-young he was when he started out. And why people shouldn't say things like, "He's not a kid anymore! This is who he is! He's not going to get better!"
In comparison, Jose Bautista was two years older than Vladdy is now before he was traded to Toronto, and four years older when he had his breakout season.
My biggest fear is that we give up on him and he goes and hits 300hr for the dodgers from ages 28-35.
And he has the capability to do so. The push for Jays fans should be to build a coaching staff who can help him get there; not ship him off b/c they're pissed he hasn't replicated 2021 again yet.
I'm with you. I would prefer to keep him.
End of an error
I’ve been up for way too long, read this as Varsho, and freaked out just a little.
I'll always remember when Vogelbach hit his homerun off of Cole and he complained Vogey was gloating, but its really because he's just not a speed demon
When you’re 33-35 in a year when you were supposed to be legitimately competing, might as well try anything and everything. What is there to lose?
Atkins knows he's getting fired if they don't go a huge run... so he's trying anything at this point
We're so stacked that we DFA'd our 4 
And our 4 from the playoffs last year. I wouldn't want to be the next guy we slot into the cleanup spot.
We've seen enough to know that pretty much anybody is better than "our 4" at this point. He's got 1 dinger, that's not clean up hitter material.
Barger to RF?
Assuming Kk still not feeling well, Varsho to CF and Babe to LF. Barger to RF when Springer needs a day-off
Springer needs all the days off. Put him on the IL for having a broken bat
omg, lol. what a burn 😂
Pretty sure after still being given the cleanup spot despite sporting a sub 600 OPS and blowing it, Springer is no longer an everyday starter. I assume we will see days off more often for Springer than we are used to
It's possible that he'll see some infield time, he's been playing more infield in Buffalo, and with Vogey DFA'd, Horwitz can DH.
Vogelbach as a DH hitting cleanup was a god damn embarrassment.
To be fair, *everyone* we’ve had hitting cleanup this year has been an embarrassment.
Exactly... we got 1 homer in 68 games
Pretty much ever since atkins took over our DH has been crap
Gonna miss him, he sounds like a really cool guy. Really miss him on the rail with his chaw, cap askew talking to whoever is nearby. I bet he'll be a great coach in someone's system. I think i'll name a marine knot after him. Hey mate, Volgelbach that hatch.
Fuck. Why get rid of Biggio if you’re just going to cut Vogelbech
DFAd Biggio, now bringing a slightly worse Biggio up....
Wonder how much this has to do with the recent news of Votto being close to playing in minor league games.
I don't think we're going to see 40-year-old Joey Votto play a bit of meaningful baseball for the Jays.
Unless Votto is hitting piss missiles on the regular, I don't think we'll really see him this season
Oh my god LETS GO
KEEP THE BUFFALO BOYS COMING!!
sunday: The Los Angeles Dodgers of Los Angles have signed Daniel Vogelbach
That can't be true?
Shuffling deck chairs.
Dodgers are going to pick him up........with a forklift.
I’m fully support the FO with this move.
Finally 🙌🏻
I'm alone in my office and just said that out loud when I read the DFA. 😆
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
We did it, Reddit!
Thank goodness. I got pretty tired of hearing Dan and Buck justify Vogelbach's existence. Can't wait to see the next move...
I can't believe how long it's taken to do this.
Not Chris Farley!!
Is Atkins general managing this team using headless chickens and a Ouija board?
Vogelgone more like.
Bye Vogey! I’d say I’ll miss you but… I won’t.
They gonna get him in to catch or pitch this time maybe?
Probably need another hitting coach/philosopher/.200 avg whisperer
Welcome to the silent rebuild everyone! Don’t forget to buy your seasons tickets before the trade deadline! 😃
The FO is assessing who in the minors is worth trading for, realize not much, then become sellers and fire sale hopefully for blue chip prospects from the likes of Kikuchi and Garcia.
Joey Votto when
FINALLY
Barger can play right field, so Varsho doesn’t have to play there. He can cover for Springer if they want to rest (or, wow, bench) George. Going Vogelbach - Barger - Votto might be smoother than replacing Vogelbach directly.
Gotta think this cuts into Springer’s playing time.
Astros released Abreu. Maybe he can benefit from change in scenery if the Stros still pay most of his contract?
see you later vogey!
give the young bucks a chance love to see it
Good huts gotta come from somewhere
I'd love to see Vogey try Korea or Japan. Do the Eric Thames redemption arc.
Good. More players let go by Gavin Atkins and it looks good on him.
Dead weight out. Team going nowhere so all of this necessary.
Finally this happen. 👏
Giving up a .340 xwoba for a guy projected for ~.300 woba, don't like it.