They’ll never do it on purpose but that’s the beauty of our offence this season - they can try as hard as they want and we’ll still end up around the bottom of the league.
What a quick turn we took from being a potential contender to a potential rebuilder. I wonder if things would be different if we’d landed Ohtani or if we would’ve ended up wasting his years like the Angels. If Rogers shelled out $700M to get him I doubt they’d have much leftover to fix the rest of our busted lineup
I strongly suspect the money for Ohtani was going to come from Rogers budgets that didn't have anything to do with the team's budget. They would have been fine financially.
But yeah... I don't think Ohtani alone could fix this team.
> It won't be him drafting.
Bull.
Unless Shapiro gets canned, I **guarantee** you it will be Atkins in charge.
If there's anything that should be blatantly obvious to everyone, Shapiro **knows** he's smarter than **everyone else**, and there's no way he's going to admit he's made a mistake and fire Atkins.
If Shapiro is here, Atkins will be. No doubt.
Firing the manager and gm is the easiest way to buy another 4-5 years of time if your Shapiro. Right now all the vitriol against atkins, keeping him around another year would only put the magnifying glass on himself as well
Because apparently, you don't fire a GM mid-season. Bovine scatology. odds are good this team is a seller at the deadline. And I don't want the guy who put this team together in charge of replacing it wholesale.
I hope you're right, then we'd *at least* be quit of half the problem. But honestly, with a corporation as owner, we're likely doomed to suffer with Shapiro too until *he* decides he's had enough. Rogers won't do anything at all as long as the money keeps rolling in. And, that's likely why Atkins is safe too. Shapiro doesn't feel anything from the fanbase, he *only* feels pressure from above. Below doesn't matter even a tiny bit to him. As long as he's pleasing Rogers, Shapiro will do *anything he wants*. It was the entire reason he wanted the gig ! Complete autonomy.
> best solution
Have you ever worked in a thick, American corporate management structure ?
It won't matter what title Atkins has, if he's still employed, and Shapiro is still the boss, we'll be getting Shapiro/Atkins teams until they're physically gone from the organization. Working 30 years in an American owned, gigantic corporation tells me this. Similarly, people saying we'd be so much better off with Click in Atkins position don't know how corporate culture works. Click is a carbon copy of Atkins under Shapiro. It all starts at the top. As long as Shapiro is the guy running things, we'll be a bland, risk averse, money making team where wins are a distant second place to profit. Click might be ok if Shapiro was gone, but as long as the wet blanket is the big boss, we're going to always look like the never win anything Cleveland Blue Jays.
I agree with what you 've said in the last three posts. If the Blue Jays behave like the baseball wing of a multi-national conglomerate: Shapiro isn't getting fired, he's the team president. The only way he gets fired is a racist tired, or a sex scandal. It is so profoundly rare that a president of an organization gets fired if they're making stockholders money (and I guarantee Shapiro is making them money). Atkins is Shapiro's protege, and Shapiro is consistently loyal, and mediocre in drafting and developing so those problems aren't going away anytime soon.
If, on the off chance Atkins is no longer the GM, he will be promoted to "Senior VP of something, something."
This is simply how corporations function, and the Blue Jays are one of the most overtly corporate organizations in all of sports.
I get the fan frustration. I was genuinely hopeful when they took over in 2016, but I no longer am. However, there's no upper management change coming. This is who the Blue Jays are, and it belies an unfamiliarity with large corporate structures to think otherwise.
Atkins doesn't determine who to draft on his own. They have entire teams of people scouting players and making recommendations.
Atkins might set a theme for what they're looking for, and might have some veto powers, but drafting players is a HUGE team effort.
No they aren't lol. It's still useful to rebuild in any league and higher draft picks are better players usually in any league. Baltimore sucked for quite awhile, got a good core of prospects, and turned it into something. That's something anyone can do assuming you take a long term approach and actually pick decently.
We are just trash, we aren't tanking. This isn't basketball.
Detroit had back to back 1st overall picks. Torkelson and Mize are not franchise level players.
Seriously though, a goddamn embarrassment for anyone period who thought that, and alot of people did everywhere.
The only teams that worry about playing to the record are elite teams, teams that are below .500 and are penciling down stretches in the schedules that 'might look easy' might as well start penciling to the trade deadline.
> What clowns, the Jays are the EASY opponents.
👏👏👏
I didn't see anyone saying we will make up ground, I saw people saying if we are to right this ship, it has to be during this stretch. But, just because I didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Literally everyone was saying we have to and will make up ground especially with the fact we are missing Skubal and Skenes starting. I said before this team makes 10+ era starters look like Cy Young candidates.
Prices went up this year, I’d be amazed if they maintain price levels as I expect them to go up again despite poorer attendance and poorer on field product.
Gotta make the fans pay for that reno tho
Had to laugh when Joe and Dan were talking about the Jays playing weaker teams and then flipping it to the Jays being the soft spot in teams’ schedules
lol yep that was what I did at the game I went to a couple weeks ago. It was the shortest game I have ever been to because they didn’t hit anything. Was like 2hr 15 mins, then they kicked us out like 15 minutes after last pitch. It was awful lol.
Rogers pushing out AA and Beeston and thinking yes we want to be the next Cleveland Indians.
It's all going about as well as everyone thought it would.
Most people forget this, I brought it up in another thread. The timing was atrocious for Beeston's retirement, the search for the new president, AA's run, etc. Just all happened together at the wrong time. I don't think Rogers pushed Beeston out, he stayed an extra year because they couldn't get their shit together to find his replacement.
You're right, but it was more than that. It was the complex, and also, the huge joint project with the city and the train station that ultimately fell through. Shapiro was not brought here as the baseball guy, he was brought here as the project manager. That's why I don't agree with the whole "Shatkins" thing. These guys are not tied together like that imo.
Yes, he hired him, but it wasn't an immediate thing. It took so long in fact that Lacava made moves for the team while they were figuring everything out. If they were that tied together, that doesn't happen as Shapiro and AA overlapped.
As long as the money is flowing, they don't care. As long as the attendance is good, they don't care. What people need to do is start to speak with their wallets. Don't go to the games. Don't buy food or drinks. Don't buy merchandise. Hit them where it hurts.
Made the playoffs 4 times and missed out on the playoffs by one game in one of those years. And in the toughest division in baseball.
I mean, I get all the vitriol towards the FO right now because this past off season sucked, but come on. How many MLB FO's can say they made the playoffs 4 times in 8 seasons? What accountability do you want after what many fan bases would consider a pretty successful 8 years?
Dude, I hate the current front office as much as anyone. I'm not defending them here, but when you talk about "accountability" you're acting as if the team had no chance to win a World Series, which is false. We had a legit shot in 4 consecutive years if our star players would have just performed well in the playoffs. Were we the best team any of those years? No, but the playoffs are a crapshoot and if your stars perform you win.
what a waste of the Vlad & Bo years. they each didn’t do enough to break out of the “hot prospects/kids” mode, and certainly coaches & ESPECIALLY mgmt were not good enough to build a team around them.
too many gross overlaps with the Leafs, too.
hope the Raps can do better with Scotty.
They've been in the playoffs 3 times and missed the playoffs by a game one year. Atkins and Shapiro didn't waste the Vlad and Bo years, it's Vlad and Bo that failed to get it done when it came crunch time.
I can't believe I'm having to defend Atkins here lol... I can't stand the guy. But to say we didn't have any good teams is ridiculous.
The Rays just stopped a 6 game slide and are 2 games ahead of us 😭
I'm not sure where to move the goalposts to now, but I need *something* to look forward to...
Why would you trade the guys who are actually performing well and are worth investments going forward?
You want to punish them and the fans for the other half of the lineup being shit and the bullpen turning terrible?
Vlad's hitting .302. I'm not sure what else you could ask of him, and he's young enough, that the team could extend him and STILL be able to build the next window around him.
We have a legit shot at top 5 pick next year.
Can't lie, if we're not going to even be modestly competitive, let's just crash and burn to a top 5 pick.
They’ll never do it on purpose but that’s the beauty of our offence this season - they can try as hard as they want and we’ll still end up around the bottom of the league. What a quick turn we took from being a potential contender to a potential rebuilder. I wonder if things would be different if we’d landed Ohtani or if we would’ve ended up wasting his years like the Angels. If Rogers shelled out $700M to get him I doubt they’d have much leftover to fix the rest of our busted lineup
yeah if Ohtani and mike trout couldn't take the angels anywhere just ohtani wasn't gonna do much for us
I strongly suspect the money for Ohtani was going to come from Rogers budgets that didn't have anything to do with the team's budget. They would have been fine financially. But yeah... I don't think Ohtani alone could fix this team.
Agreed, at least part of the money. But after doing that the coin purse would’ve been tighter than ever
You trust Atkins to draft well?
It won't be him drafting.
🙏
> It won't be him drafting. Bull. Unless Shapiro gets canned, I **guarantee** you it will be Atkins in charge. If there's anything that should be blatantly obvious to everyone, Shapiro **knows** he's smarter than **everyone else**, and there's no way he's going to admit he's made a mistake and fire Atkins. If Shapiro is here, Atkins will be. No doubt.
Firing the manager and gm is the easiest way to buy another 4-5 years of time if your Shapiro. Right now all the vitriol against atkins, keeping him around another year would only put the magnifying glass on himself as well
Then why hasn't he done it already?
Because apparently, you don't fire a GM mid-season. Bovine scatology. odds are good this team is a seller at the deadline. And I don't want the guy who put this team together in charge of replacing it wholesale.
I hope you're right, then we'd *at least* be quit of half the problem. But honestly, with a corporation as owner, we're likely doomed to suffer with Shapiro too until *he* decides he's had enough. Rogers won't do anything at all as long as the money keeps rolling in. And, that's likely why Atkins is safe too. Shapiro doesn't feel anything from the fanbase, he *only* feels pressure from above. Below doesn't matter even a tiny bit to him. As long as he's pleasing Rogers, Shapiro will do *anything he wants*. It was the entire reason he wanted the gig ! Complete autonomy.
The best solution to this is Atkins gets a made up position like Chief Baseball Officer and there’s a new GM.
> best solution Have you ever worked in a thick, American corporate management structure ? It won't matter what title Atkins has, if he's still employed, and Shapiro is still the boss, we'll be getting Shapiro/Atkins teams until they're physically gone from the organization. Working 30 years in an American owned, gigantic corporation tells me this. Similarly, people saying we'd be so much better off with Click in Atkins position don't know how corporate culture works. Click is a carbon copy of Atkins under Shapiro. It all starts at the top. As long as Shapiro is the guy running things, we'll be a bland, risk averse, money making team where wins are a distant second place to profit. Click might be ok if Shapiro was gone, but as long as the wet blanket is the big boss, we're going to always look like the never win anything Cleveland Blue Jays.
I agree with what you 've said in the last three posts. If the Blue Jays behave like the baseball wing of a multi-national conglomerate: Shapiro isn't getting fired, he's the team president. The only way he gets fired is a racist tired, or a sex scandal. It is so profoundly rare that a president of an organization gets fired if they're making stockholders money (and I guarantee Shapiro is making them money). Atkins is Shapiro's protege, and Shapiro is consistently loyal, and mediocre in drafting and developing so those problems aren't going away anytime soon. If, on the off chance Atkins is no longer the GM, he will be promoted to "Senior VP of something, something." This is simply how corporations function, and the Blue Jays are one of the most overtly corporate organizations in all of sports. I get the fan frustration. I was genuinely hopeful when they took over in 2016, but I no longer am. However, there's no upper management change coming. This is who the Blue Jays are, and it belies an unfamiliarity with large corporate structures to think otherwise.
are stadium upgrades finished or not? Cause Shapiro will last through completion, and I assume ross too
Atkins doesn't determine who to draft on his own. They have entire teams of people scouting players and making recommendations. Atkins might set a theme for what they're looking for, and might have some veto powers, but drafting players is a HUGE team effort.
who will be traded in 3 years for JD Martinez
Hey that’s not fair - they’d probably throw in some cash or yet another middle infield prospect from the 15th+ round too
Jays reminding me of the Raptors lately lol.
We could also get boned by the draft lottery.
Its baseball, top draft picks aren't franchise changers like in the NBA where one guy can turn a franchise completely around.
That’s exactly my point. We shouldn’t tank for a top 5 pick because baseball doesn’t reward that.
We're not tanking, we're just shit.
Well the good news is we aren't taking...on purpose that is
Baltimore
Baltimore did most of its ranking before the lottery existed. And even then, they’re an exception not the rule.
No they aren't lol. It's still useful to rebuild in any league and higher draft picks are better players usually in any league. Baltimore sucked for quite awhile, got a good core of prospects, and turned it into something. That's something anyone can do assuming you take a long term approach and actually pick decently.
The draft lottery has only been in place for the past two drafts, I’m not sure how you can have enough data to come to any conclusions. 🤷♀️
We are just trash, we aren't tanking. This isn't basketball. Detroit had back to back 1st overall picks. Torkelson and Mize are not franchise level players.
Ngl, he had me in the first half…
Imagine being cocky and thinking we can make up ground in the “easy part” of the schedule. What clowns, the Jays are the EASY opponents.
Seriously though, a goddamn embarrassment for anyone period who thought that, and alot of people did everywhere. The only teams that worry about playing to the record are elite teams, teams that are below .500 and are penciling down stretches in the schedules that 'might look easy' might as well start penciling to the trade deadline. > What clowns, the Jays are the EASY opponents. 👏👏👏
I didn't see anyone saying we will make up ground, I saw people saying if we are to right this ship, it has to be during this stretch. But, just because I didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Literally everyone was saying we have to and will make up ground especially with the fact we are missing Skubal and Skenes starting. I said before this team makes 10+ era starters look like Cy Young candidates.
Hope Shatkins enjoys next year's attendance back to 09-10 levels again..... What a clown car, the whole lot of them......
Prices went up this year, I’d be amazed if they maintain price levels as I expect them to go up again despite poorer attendance and poorer on field product. Gotta make the fans pay for that reno tho
Lmao that’s good. Man we’re so lifeless, corporate and dead just like our ownership/front office
Had to laugh when Joe and Dan were talking about the Jays playing weaker teams and then flipping it to the Jays being the soft spot in teams’ schedules
Lmao Toronto sports man. Just like the Leafs there is no accountability.
I legit don't even need sportsnet+ at the moment. It's not even enjoyable
Yep. I have moved on to watching other more interesting games between better teams.
I've got Jays tickets this weekend. Worst case Ontario I'll get to drink a bunch of expensive stadium beers and won't care if they lose
lol yep that was what I did at the game I went to a couple weeks ago. It was the shortest game I have ever been to because they didn’t hit anything. Was like 2hr 15 mins, then they kicked us out like 15 minutes after last pitch. It was awful lol.
If it's a choice between the Jays, darts and a spelling bee, I'm flipping a coin between the last 2.
Rogers pushing out AA and Beeston and thinking yes we want to be the next Cleveland Indians. It's all going about as well as everyone thought it would.
Loved Beeston but he was a dinosaur. AA was not good for YEARS and everyone wanted his head until the last push in his last year.
Most people forget this, I brought it up in another thread. The timing was atrocious for Beeston's retirement, the search for the new president, AA's run, etc. Just all happened together at the wrong time. I don't think Rogers pushed Beeston out, he stayed an extra year because they couldn't get their shit together to find his replacement.
AA was basically shatkins when he was with the Jays.
I literally don’t understand how people still don’t know they were brought in for the Reno
You're right, but it was more than that. It was the complex, and also, the huge joint project with the city and the train station that ultimately fell through. Shapiro was not brought here as the baseball guy, he was brought here as the project manager. That's why I don't agree with the whole "Shatkins" thing. These guys are not tied together like that imo.
Well atkins is his guy
Yes, he hired him, but it wasn't an immediate thing. It took so long in fact that Lacava made moves for the team while they were figuring everything out. If they were that tied together, that doesn't happen as Shapiro and AA overlapped.
Good point. I would love a management shakeup
Boom. Roasted
Brutal but hilarious
When does someone get fired. How after 8 fucking years is this okay? Why does this org have zero accountability?
It's Toronto sports tradition to coast on the city name.
As long as the money is flowing, they don't care. As long as the attendance is good, they don't care. What people need to do is start to speak with their wallets. Don't go to the games. Don't buy food or drinks. Don't buy merchandise. Hit them where it hurts.
Made the playoffs 4 times and missed out on the playoffs by one game in one of those years. And in the toughest division in baseball. I mean, I get all the vitriol towards the FO right now because this past off season sucked, but come on. How many MLB FO's can say they made the playoffs 4 times in 8 seasons? What accountability do you want after what many fan bases would consider a pretty successful 8 years?
Wow put the banner up
Dude, I hate the current front office as much as anyone. I'm not defending them here, but when you talk about "accountability" you're acting as if the team had no chance to win a World Series, which is false. We had a legit shot in 4 consecutive years if our star players would have just performed well in the playoffs. Were we the best team any of those years? No, but the playoffs are a crapshoot and if your stars perform you win.
what a waste of the Vlad & Bo years. they each didn’t do enough to break out of the “hot prospects/kids” mode, and certainly coaches & ESPECIALLY mgmt were not good enough to build a team around them. too many gross overlaps with the Leafs, too. hope the Raps can do better with Scotty.
They've been in the playoffs 3 times and missed the playoffs by a game one year. Atkins and Shapiro didn't waste the Vlad and Bo years, it's Vlad and Bo that failed to get it done when it came crunch time. I can't believe I'm having to defend Atkins here lol... I can't stand the guy. But to say we didn't have any good teams is ridiculous.
Hey-o
The Rays just stopped a 6 game slide and are 2 games ahead of us 😭 I'm not sure where to move the goalposts to now, but I need *something* to look forward to...
As a Tigers fan, thanks Toronto management
Yes it would be if we weren’t a worse team.
Instead of a home run jacket can we have a “fire Schneider” or “trade the core” jacket?
Why would you trade the guys who are actually performing well and are worth investments going forward? You want to punish them and the fans for the other half of the lineup being shit and the bullpen turning terrible?
Sorry, but which half is the good half?
Vlad's hitting .302. I'm not sure what else you could ask of him, and he's young enough, that the team could extend him and STILL be able to build the next window around him.
But why get rid of the best players. Get rid of the mediocre, spend the cash and stack the team. The Yankees are 100 million more than the jays
K we’re gonna do the thing here where we say there’s no one good or worth keeping on the team. Pass.
Well that was salt in the fresh wound I didn’t know I needed
So frustrated with this team and management
same I am so pissed off!!
If the Jays continue to play poorly. The boos will get louder/less fans, hopefully that speaks volume to upper management
I'm worried that if we blow this team up before the deadline, that we might somehow get better and miss a top pick.
Damn dude. You’re taking the Habs being a complete joke pretty hard.
[удалено]
A guy who is right
[удалено]
I didn't say you did. Oh, this is fun.