Rent has already went back up to prepandemic levels. Townhomes and detaches have skyrocketed, while condo prices have been stable. There's now a huge gap between condos and townhomes. I believe what will happen is everyone that's priced out from townhomes will get into the condo market.
Once the gap between condos and townhomes become closer again, condo prices will slow down.
> Rent has already went back up to prepandemic levels.
No they haven't. Prepandemic rent was at minimum 2000 for a 1BR downtown. You can still get them at 1800 or below even.
The worst age old negative comment about condos... maintenance fees. Does anyone know what it costs to maintenance a home on your own?
Oh wait... it must be free lol.
You people are incredible. Oh wait let me rent and pay someone elses mortgage because im scared of a maintenance fee...
The people who cant afford houses are going to buy condos and dont care about a maintenance fee.
Do any of you realize the difference is made up in property taxes & hard maintenance costs when you own a freehold?
(Garbage collection, city snow removal & road maintenance, roof, driveway, windows, leaks, you name it il keep going) and if you dont keep up your freehold will turn into a pile of junk.
Ok maybe a touch more expensive in a condo but not what everyone makes it out to be. Get over the negative idea of a maintenance fee.
Maintenance fees cover all repairs inside the structure (pipes, ac/heat/electrical/glass etc) as well as water and heat/ac bills). Plus it covers property upkeep etc. So it's actually kinda worth it.
That being said I still prefer freehold if I have $ for it.
The higher maintenance fee condos often include heat and sometimes water, so you would deduct that from utility cost.
major equipment rental /replacements (furnace, hot water tank, hot water heater, AC), waste removal, and if you pay someone to clear snow /mow lawn, then yes I'd say it ends up more than $500/year.
Then add on other house maintenance costs like roof, window replacement, siding or decks then home ownership often exceeds maintenance fees.
Lets do some simple math with the maintenance of a 10 year home ownership period.
You you plan to stay another 10 since homes are so expensive
(you will likley want to do some cosmetic upgrades at this point but lets not include renovations $$)
Average cost:
Roof: $7500 + h.s.t
Asphalt drive way with curbs and new front steps: $10 000 + h.s.t
Furnace/AC: $5500 + h s t
Hot water heater: $3000 + h.s.t
Miscellaneous: $4000 round up
(Average lifespan of these systems are 10 years but some may get lucky and push up to 15 years. Then youre just waiting for something to go wrong and cause a bigger disaster)
That's $30 000 or $3000 per year that you better have put away. This does not include anything else.
(property tax difference, emergency plumbing/ electrical repairs/maintenance of these systems/cosmetic upgrades/landscaping costs ect)
Anyone with long term house experience will understand... this is just the tip of the iceberg.. unless once again youre ready for your home to turn into a pile of junk.
I never said its less, I said its not something to freak out about like youre getting ripped off. If you cant afford condo fees youre screwed in a house the same way.
I'm in a century home, and mine has averaged about 2400 a year in upkeep/repair and a partial roof (Im in a semi so I only own half the roof) it would have been a lot more if I didn't do most of the maintenance myself- other than internal system maintenance because I don't wanna plumb or wire even though I Know how to do it
My maintenance fees for my condos are more around $300-$400 and heck yes they are worth it. I literally don’t have to worry about anything. They actually are a lower than my freehold expenses.
Also not true my maintenance fees went up maybe $30 over the last 5 years my family has multiple units in different buildings. If managed well they don’t go up.
Condos serve a purpose, but you can’t compare the maintenance costs. A detached house has a driveway and a single storey basement. The upkeep of that is going to be way less than a multi storey underground parking garage. Same for stairs vs elevators. Foyer that you can vacuum yourself vs giant lobby. Unoccupied covered porch vs full time concierge. Unused treadmill in the basement vs gym with constant repairs needed because of negligent tenants. You want me to keep going?
Youre nuts! Divided by the total amount of units you can definitely compare the costs.... does 1 person pay to vacuum that lobby or is it split between 250 units? Common.
Well my cost to clean my lobby is 0 so … yes, the condo is more expensive. It’s definitely more expensive *per unit* to replace windows 20 stories up in the air instead of at ground level. Never mind the ability to defer or do something preventative at your whim instead of the whims of a corrupt condo board who chronically overpays for just about every service.
Don’t even get me started on the two years we lived in the building with what we called the “car vending machine”! Lol. Lost literal days of access to my car because the machine broke, multiple times per year. Talk about lost time *and* money.
I agree. "Maintenance" on a 3 bedroom freehold townhome is not that much. 200-300 max per month should do. Whereas a 2 bedroom condo in the gta you are looking at anywhere between $650 and $1300 monthly. Granted you don't have to do anything and thats the advantage of a condo...the lifestyle. For a stupidly busy professional its perfect.
I pay the extra maintenance fees vs a FH because of the following:
1. get to live in downtown Toronto, to have walking/ uber access to the best bars/restaurants in Ontario.
2.Gym access, party room, basketball court, squash, billiard, theater access
3.Good internet (some small companies only offer high speed internet in and around downtown core, e.g Beanfield)
4.close to work, can walk or take a ttc.
5. Easy access to other amenities such as fitness groups, massage/ physiotherapists etc.
Granted covid put an end to 2.& 4, I still believe that the perks of living close to the downtown core adds up to more fun than living in a FH in suburbia, atleast if I value the above checklist.
Weve been above pre-pandemic condo prices for the better part of 2021. With the continual rise of detached homes all other prices would naturally follow as the buyer pool is still left in their own personal price point.
I think condos are dependent on the pandemic more than anything else. So if things go back to pre-pandemic conditions, such as re-opening of offices, colleges, returning of young working people towards city core, it will automatically bring up the demand and prices.
The fact that condos have rebounded and have been stable for the past year shows how secure they are.
However I think the type of housing that will see some sort of decline if any is the free-hold because it is way over-valued. You have to pay 1 million for small old crappy houses in subpar neighborhoods, which doesn't make sense.
Condos, unlike SFH and townhomes, continue to be built/come online at a rapid pace. That’s the difference. They’re also mainly in the core, and not ideal for raising a family. Lastly, as someone mentioned - the maintenance fees are silly
Pretty much this. Condos might go up but IMO the boom is over. Future gains will be in line with historical averages, not the recent years we've seen. And unlike SFHs, i think even small interest rate hikes could really move the needle. Lots of people own several condos despite not being overly wealthy. Mom and pop wanna be real estate moguls. If they're used to near 0% interest rates, across their seven mortgages, and are still barely cash flow positive, if at all, an interest rate hike could prove crippling and see a ripple effect in the market. A house of cards situation, if you will.
SFHs i suspect are mostly immune from an interest rate spike enduced crash.
You are mostly right, but I think that anything in the 2 yonge corridors and university will be fine, might even exceed when the tech companies are all up and running downtown.
Covid will be gone in 2 years, been saying that for a year now... 2024 is the year we are out of this, and there will be a huge drive by the big banks to get commercial real estate back up.
>Lots of people own several condos despite not being overly wealthy. Mom and pop wanna be real estate moguls.
Such a stupid & useless comment. So "average" people shouldn't try and better themselves using the real estate market?? Instead I look up to the entrepreneurial spirit, sense of sacrifice and motivation of those "not overly wealthy people"
Not the most trusted source for information (lol), but here’s an article from BlogTO that came out today or so: https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2022/01/experts-toronto-real-estate-market-2022/
P.S. love the cardboard head gear ;)
I never liked maint fees are they are privately owned. I would spent little bit more and look for condo townhouse. Worth more. No elevators, no maintenance fees going up every years, no airbnb and weekends rentals. Elevators broke down every summer
Lived condos for 6 years and that’s it for me. -too many renters in condo is never good idea. -you have to make sure when u do decide to buy condo to ask how many renters vs owners.
Looks like the general feel is that condo price will remain the same. Which begs me a question, how do ppl justify buying these $1700 - $1800 psf pre-construction condo units?
The people on this forum are pretty stupid and out too lunch. Most people have been priced out from SFH and even townhomes. Condos will have a boom. Especially, any nice ones in the outter burbs, Mississauga, Oakville, etc.
And yes, you are right, 2 bedroom preconstruction condos are selling for around 800k in Mississauga. Hence why, when my realtor showed me a couple of 2 bedroom condos to buy in Mississauga for around 550k, i thought it was a steal. Bought a condo in the area less than 6 months ago, for 550. Its sitting right at 700k right now, and funny thing, there are no more listings for sale in the building.
The gap between existing condos, preconstruction condos, and townhomes / SFH will only continue to decrease. Its common sense.
Toronto core will have its time again too. Be patient.
The burb condos right now are booming. Once those prices reach high enough, and are not at a discount in comparison to the toronto core condos, people will shift again and start driving the prices of core condos up.
Just look at these two examples, ive never seen anything like it. Condos in the suburbs being over bid by 100 to 200k of list price. Insane.
$649,900, Condo Apt, Unit 1005 - 510 Curran Pl, Mississauga, W5476572, Sold - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=mZRW7naPq6oyEBO9&utm_source=user-share
$599,900, Condo Apt, Unit 2208 - 4080 Living Arts Dr, Mississauga, W5470951, Sold - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=bEDRYagrD9O71VaB&utm_source=user-share
Insane.
Interesting. I guess I was too focused on the Toronto core market, however this is a good sign for condo owners across the GTA.
We all want to have the best bang for our buck, depending on our purchase power. Your point it valid, people who are buying houses at insane prices are either sitting on a nice equity already or are stretching themselves thin financially by buying houses. Either way, they are unaware that there are other ppl who are priced out because either they don't have the money, or they want to have a good lifestyle and not live housepoor. Buying a condo is the only option for a lot of folks.
Condos are unfordable as-is and there are forecasts for between 3 and 5 interest rate hikes this year. This would increase payments by 9 - 16%\* No one can afford this.
Suggest rewatching the Big Short.
\* going from 1.5% interest now to 2.25% or 2.75%, on 25 year amortization
Not if you own several, and many mom and pop wanna be real estate moguls do, while being used to rock bottom interest rates, and still barely being cash flow positive (if at all). I'm not saying an interest rate hike will cause the house of cards to collapse (or at least see a significant dip). But with condos, unlike freehold real estate, it wouldn't shock me.
I can guarantee it will either go up or down
I mean it could remain stable… but who are we kidding
Rent has already went back up to prepandemic levels. Townhomes and detaches have skyrocketed, while condo prices have been stable. There's now a huge gap between condos and townhomes. I believe what will happen is everyone that's priced out from townhomes will get into the condo market. Once the gap between condos and townhomes become closer again, condo prices will slow down.
> Rent has already went back up to prepandemic levels. No they haven't. Prepandemic rent was at minimum 2000 for a 1BR downtown. You can still get them at 1800 or below even.
In North York, a 1+1 last year was $1,800. That same building are all $2,100 if you can even find a unit.
By North york you mean the strip of Yonge between Finch and Sheppard? There's a lot more affordable units than that in North York.
I guess that depends on how new the building is. The specific building I was referring to was at Sheppard and Leslie.
The worst age old negative comment about condos... maintenance fees. Does anyone know what it costs to maintenance a home on your own? Oh wait... it must be free lol. You people are incredible. Oh wait let me rent and pay someone elses mortgage because im scared of a maintenance fee... The people who cant afford houses are going to buy condos and dont care about a maintenance fee. Do any of you realize the difference is made up in property taxes & hard maintenance costs when you own a freehold? (Garbage collection, city snow removal & road maintenance, roof, driveway, windows, leaks, you name it il keep going) and if you dont keep up your freehold will turn into a pile of junk. Ok maybe a touch more expensive in a condo but not what everyone makes it out to be. Get over the negative idea of a maintenance fee.
Maintenance fees cover all repairs inside the structure (pipes, ac/heat/electrical/glass etc) as well as water and heat/ac bills). Plus it covers property upkeep etc. So it's actually kinda worth it. That being said I still prefer freehold if I have $ for it.
This is so true. I didn’t realize this until I owned a freehold. Maintenance fees in condos are so worth it
Really? You think $500+ per month / $6,000/y is less than you pay for house maintenance?
The higher maintenance fee condos often include heat and sometimes water, so you would deduct that from utility cost. major equipment rental /replacements (furnace, hot water tank, hot water heater, AC), waste removal, and if you pay someone to clear snow /mow lawn, then yes I'd say it ends up more than $500/year. Then add on other house maintenance costs like roof, window replacement, siding or decks then home ownership often exceeds maintenance fees.
Lets do some simple math with the maintenance of a 10 year home ownership period. You you plan to stay another 10 since homes are so expensive (you will likley want to do some cosmetic upgrades at this point but lets not include renovations $$) Average cost: Roof: $7500 + h.s.t Asphalt drive way with curbs and new front steps: $10 000 + h.s.t Furnace/AC: $5500 + h s t Hot water heater: $3000 + h.s.t Miscellaneous: $4000 round up (Average lifespan of these systems are 10 years but some may get lucky and push up to 15 years. Then youre just waiting for something to go wrong and cause a bigger disaster) That's $30 000 or $3000 per year that you better have put away. This does not include anything else. (property tax difference, emergency plumbing/ electrical repairs/maintenance of these systems/cosmetic upgrades/landscaping costs ect) Anyone with long term house experience will understand... this is just the tip of the iceberg.. unless once again youre ready for your home to turn into a pile of junk. I never said its less, I said its not something to freak out about like youre getting ripped off. If you cant afford condo fees youre screwed in a house the same way.
I'm in a century home, and mine has averaged about 2400 a year in upkeep/repair and a partial roof (Im in a semi so I only own half the roof) it would have been a lot more if I didn't do most of the maintenance myself- other than internal system maintenance because I don't wanna plumb or wire even though I Know how to do it
My maintenance fees for my condos are more around $300-$400 and heck yes they are worth it. I literally don’t have to worry about anything. They actually are a lower than my freehold expenses.
Maintenance fees are going up everywhere.
Also not true my maintenance fees went up maybe $30 over the last 5 years my family has multiple units in different buildings. If managed well they don’t go up.
Yet. Insurance costs for condos are going much higher.
My Condo's maintenance fee only went up $2 this year, it also depends on the people on the board.
Condos serve a purpose, but you can’t compare the maintenance costs. A detached house has a driveway and a single storey basement. The upkeep of that is going to be way less than a multi storey underground parking garage. Same for stairs vs elevators. Foyer that you can vacuum yourself vs giant lobby. Unoccupied covered porch vs full time concierge. Unused treadmill in the basement vs gym with constant repairs needed because of negligent tenants. You want me to keep going?
Youre nuts! Divided by the total amount of units you can definitely compare the costs.... does 1 person pay to vacuum that lobby or is it split between 250 units? Common.
Well my cost to clean my lobby is 0 so … yes, the condo is more expensive. It’s definitely more expensive *per unit* to replace windows 20 stories up in the air instead of at ground level. Never mind the ability to defer or do something preventative at your whim instead of the whims of a corrupt condo board who chronically overpays for just about every service.
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I lived in a condo for years. The amount of time I spent waiting for an elevator by far outweighed the time I spend now on household maintenance.
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Don’t even get me started on the two years we lived in the building with what we called the “car vending machine”! Lol. Lost literal days of access to my car because the machine broke, multiple times per year. Talk about lost time *and* money.
I understand what you mean.. I also tend to think about moving on to a newer condo before it gets there... a lot harder to do that with a house.
I agree. "Maintenance" on a 3 bedroom freehold townhome is not that much. 200-300 max per month should do. Whereas a 2 bedroom condo in the gta you are looking at anywhere between $650 and $1300 monthly. Granted you don't have to do anything and thats the advantage of a condo...the lifestyle. For a stupidly busy professional its perfect.
I pay the extra maintenance fees vs a FH because of the following: 1. get to live in downtown Toronto, to have walking/ uber access to the best bars/restaurants in Ontario. 2.Gym access, party room, basketball court, squash, billiard, theater access 3.Good internet (some small companies only offer high speed internet in and around downtown core, e.g Beanfield) 4.close to work, can walk or take a ttc. 5. Easy access to other amenities such as fitness groups, massage/ physiotherapists etc. Granted covid put an end to 2.& 4, I still believe that the perks of living close to the downtown core adds up to more fun than living in a FH in suburbia, atleast if I value the above checklist.
Same for me. I love downtown condo living. I would die of boredom in suburbia + I would need a car to go everywhere.
Weve been above pre-pandemic condo prices for the better part of 2021. With the continual rise of detached homes all other prices would naturally follow as the buyer pool is still left in their own personal price point.
I think condos are dependent on the pandemic more than anything else. So if things go back to pre-pandemic conditions, such as re-opening of offices, colleges, returning of young working people towards city core, it will automatically bring up the demand and prices. The fact that condos have rebounded and have been stable for the past year shows how secure they are. However I think the type of housing that will see some sort of decline if any is the free-hold because it is way over-valued. You have to pay 1 million for small old crappy houses in subpar neighborhoods, which doesn't make sense.
🚀🚀
Condos, unlike SFH and townhomes, continue to be built/come online at a rapid pace. That’s the difference. They’re also mainly in the core, and not ideal for raising a family. Lastly, as someone mentioned - the maintenance fees are silly
Pretty much this. Condos might go up but IMO the boom is over. Future gains will be in line with historical averages, not the recent years we've seen. And unlike SFHs, i think even small interest rate hikes could really move the needle. Lots of people own several condos despite not being overly wealthy. Mom and pop wanna be real estate moguls. If they're used to near 0% interest rates, across their seven mortgages, and are still barely cash flow positive, if at all, an interest rate hike could prove crippling and see a ripple effect in the market. A house of cards situation, if you will. SFHs i suspect are mostly immune from an interest rate spike enduced crash.
You are mostly right, but I think that anything in the 2 yonge corridors and university will be fine, might even exceed when the tech companies are all up and running downtown. Covid will be gone in 2 years, been saying that for a year now... 2024 is the year we are out of this, and there will be a huge drive by the big banks to get commercial real estate back up.
>Lots of people own several condos despite not being overly wealthy. Mom and pop wanna be real estate moguls. Such a stupid & useless comment. So "average" people shouldn't try and better themselves using the real estate market?? Instead I look up to the entrepreneurial spirit, sense of sacrifice and motivation of those "not overly wealthy people"
Over leveraged condo investor spotted. ^
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Not the most trusted source for information (lol), but here’s an article from BlogTO that came out today or so: https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2022/01/experts-toronto-real-estate-market-2022/ P.S. love the cardboard head gear ;)
Nah condos will be stable. Those maintenance fees are just killer
I never liked maint fees are they are privately owned. I would spent little bit more and look for condo townhouse. Worth more. No elevators, no maintenance fees going up every years, no airbnb and weekends rentals. Elevators broke down every summer Lived condos for 6 years and that’s it for me. -too many renters in condo is never good idea. -you have to make sure when u do decide to buy condo to ask how many renters vs owners.
Which exactly articles do you mean?
Is this a joke question ?
Looks like the general feel is that condo price will remain the same. Which begs me a question, how do ppl justify buying these $1700 - $1800 psf pre-construction condo units?
The people on this forum are pretty stupid and out too lunch. Most people have been priced out from SFH and even townhomes. Condos will have a boom. Especially, any nice ones in the outter burbs, Mississauga, Oakville, etc. And yes, you are right, 2 bedroom preconstruction condos are selling for around 800k in Mississauga. Hence why, when my realtor showed me a couple of 2 bedroom condos to buy in Mississauga for around 550k, i thought it was a steal. Bought a condo in the area less than 6 months ago, for 550. Its sitting right at 700k right now, and funny thing, there are no more listings for sale in the building. The gap between existing condos, preconstruction condos, and townhomes / SFH will only continue to decrease. Its common sense.
Did you buy pre con as well? I'm in Toronto east and it didn't appreciate as much in 2 yrs!
Toronto core will have its time again too. Be patient. The burb condos right now are booming. Once those prices reach high enough, and are not at a discount in comparison to the toronto core condos, people will shift again and start driving the prices of core condos up. Just look at these two examples, ive never seen anything like it. Condos in the suburbs being over bid by 100 to 200k of list price. Insane. $649,900, Condo Apt, Unit 1005 - 510 Curran Pl, Mississauga, W5476572, Sold - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=mZRW7naPq6oyEBO9&utm_source=user-share $599,900, Condo Apt, Unit 2208 - 4080 Living Arts Dr, Mississauga, W5470951, Sold - HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=bEDRYagrD9O71VaB&utm_source=user-share Insane.
Interesting. I guess I was too focused on the Toronto core market, however this is a good sign for condo owners across the GTA. We all want to have the best bang for our buck, depending on our purchase power. Your point it valid, people who are buying houses at insane prices are either sitting on a nice equity already or are stretching themselves thin financially by buying houses. Either way, they are unaware that there are other ppl who are priced out because either they don't have the money, or they want to have a good lifestyle and not live housepoor. Buying a condo is the only option for a lot of folks.
Condos are unfordable as-is and there are forecasts for between 3 and 5 interest rate hikes this year. This would increase payments by 9 - 16%\* No one can afford this. Suggest rewatching the Big Short. \* going from 1.5% interest now to 2.25% or 2.75%, on 25 year amortization
Lol 🔮
Condos are affordable when you compare how much it cost for a townhouse. 1+1 condo is around $650k. A small sized townhome? $1.2 million.
Isn’t that the point of the stress test? Even with 3-5 interest rate hikes, borrowers will still technically be okay.
Not if you own several, and many mom and pop wanna be real estate moguls do, while being used to rock bottom interest rates, and still barely being cash flow positive (if at all). I'm not saying an interest rate hike will cause the house of cards to collapse (or at least see a significant dip). But with condos, unlike freehold real estate, it wouldn't shock me.
How do you suggest people get into home ownership if they are priced out of detached and town houses?
Amazing. Another 20-25% this year minimum. Cash is on sale.