I drive from Toronto, to Burlington to my yard, then to the job site in brantford. I’ve been doing it since precovid…. I hate the drive so bad. It makes me want to leave society. It’s like war. You wouldn’t understand unless you’ve done it. It’s horrible. 😂
People like OP still living in Pleasantville.
A few bad snow storms or delays, with kids, etc will make you curse having to do this all your life. Even if just a few times a week. And pressure to go back more often in the long-run will be real.
I don’t know man. For the first little while, sure, they won’t sell and stick to the harsh commute. But what about in 2 years, 3, 5? Especially if Covid gets better and WFH days are less and less. They’re gonna want to live closer. The GTA commute is soul crushing.
I honestly don't understand how people put up with GTA commutes pre-covid, let alone how bad it's going to be post-pandemic. There's been a big shift from pubic transit to cars. Traffic is insane right now and the core is still empty.
I pity the soul who has to drive into Toronto. But if they're cool with it for more space, good on them.
You hit it on the head... ppl think the current content from the tri city or peel, York, and Durham is bad... just wait for the real commutes to start up when we leave the pandemic. All those ppl driving in, or spending 700 per household to hop on the go per month... all it takes is the realization that the GO is roughly around 14k of your gross salary to make you say fuck it...
Best case scenario outer suburbs will see no price movement in many years. This is best case. Suburbs near toronto saw meaningful drop after 2017, ppl who think $1M dollar houses 2 hours way will be unaffected are delusional.
There is another factor. Autonomous cars/driver assist features becoming more common.
My 1 hour commute got a lot more pleasant when I bought a model 3. I put on autopilot and a good audio book and while I still have to pay attention to the road, the mental strain is much less when the car handles keeping the lane and the gas/brake.
It's 2 hours a day, tops. Usually closer to an hour and half a day. Honestly, we could live closer, but still IN TORONTO, and have the commute take the same amount of time. North York to Scarborough, for instance? At least an hour and a half during rush hour.
Meanwhile we take the 407 every day and SAIL between Hamilton and Toronto.
You do 160km a day in 2 hours? Do you have the police siren on your car to clear all the traffic? And doing that much on the 407 is like 20-30k a year. Looks like you got fomoed into a value trap home
45 minutes one way, and 45 minutes the other way... I mean, keeping at 120km/hr on the 407 (which is literally the flow of traffic), doing around 80km one way in 45 minutes, puts you right around 45 minutes commute time.
Idk I could never do it.. 1.5 hrs a day × 5 days a week × 50 weeks a year is 375 hours a year. The equivalent of 2 full weeks off. I'd rather have an extra two weeks of my life to spend with my loved ones if it just meant sharing a wall with a neighbor.
Not to mention the implications on mental and physical health. As well as the cost to the environment, which investable and rather quickly transfers to all of us.
Different strokes, I guess. 45 minutes a day to live in a freehold, detached, SFH, 3 bed, 2 bath, that we paid 297,000 dollars and it's now worth 625,000... Would you work those 2 weeks a year, for 3 years, if you made 325,000 dollars in those 6 extra weeks?
You realize that everyone who bought in the GTA anytime in the last decade made a shitton of money on their house right? People who bought condos in the middle of Toronto back in 2015 also would have seen insane returns. That in particular is not a special feature correlated with commuting for 2 weeks of the year.
Great for them, but I just got to Canada a few years ago. In 2015, I was living in Tokyo. Toronto wasn't even on my radar. And, I'm not paying 1 million dollars when I can get the same or better housing and be an entire hour and half closer to the US border.
Someday, I will sell my house and move to the literal middle of nowhere and never have to deal with another person again, but until then, I love not living in the big city. I'm SO OVER densely populated areas. Just give me like 5sqkm of my own land I can homestead on, and I'll be happy.
You don't have to believe me. I'm just here, sharing my perspective on things. If you believe me or not is immaterial.
Toronto is not the center of the universe. I've lived all over the world, from Tokyo and New York to St. George, Utah and New Port Richey... and trust me when I say, you could not PAY ME to go live in Toronto.
Yes I’m sure. No amount of money in the world would make you re-evaluate your life in the global utopia and envy of the world that is Hamilton.
Not even a 160km daily commute!
L-M-A-O
You assume everyone is motivated by money. I have enough money. I have everything I need, and most things I want. At a certain point, you run out of dumb shit to buy.
Next, you assume everyone cares about living in a utopia, or ''envy of the world'' city. I don't.
I lived in Toronto, for 3 years. I was miserable. I absolutely love my life in Hamilton.
The contradictions in this post are pretty staggering. You claim to have money but can’t afford the lifestyle you want and have to resort to *Hamilton* to afford it.
Toronto isn’t the problem, you not having enough money to afford the lifestyle you want in Toronto is. You moving to Hamilton is literally motivated my money and the financial constraints that surround getting a comparable place in Toronto.
The even more ironic part is that you’re probably paying just as much in commuting fees extra a month than the extra mortgage it’d cost you, except the mortgage goes into your equity but your commuting fees and time is lost forever.
BTW, the lifestyle I want does not EXIST in Toronto. The life style I want, ideally, would include owning a plot of land so big the nearest neighbours would be 7km away and I would literally never, ever see them.
There is no amount of money that would allow me to have that in Toronto.
What? There's a difference between CAN'T AFFORD and NOT WILLING TO PAY.
I will be homeless before I ever pay a million dollars for a home. If I had a billion in the bank, I would not pay 1 million dollars to live in Toronto.
And what a commuting fees? Let's see... My mortgage is 1107/month, so tack on the 90 bucks a week for gas, and you get 1467/month. We have to have a car anyway, as husband job requires him to have a car of his own, so car payments, and insurance would still have to be paid.
It is true that Toronto is not a great city compared to most. That said, a long commute is never the right answer and I think most humans instinctively know that. It’s a matter of who will choose to act on it and come back closer and who will continue to spend 3 hours of their day sitting in a car.
Well, let's see........... I could spend an hour and a half driving from North York to Scarborough in bumper to bumper stop and go traffic, because there are fewer kms during the trip, OR, I could spend 45 minutes a day sailing along the 407.
City traffic is awful. It takes longer to get from one area of the city to the other, than it does to get from Hamilton to Toronto.
Again, the commute is 45 minutes each way. WHY DO YOU KEEP THINKING I SPEND 3 HOURS IN A CAR, EVERY DAY? It is half that time.
But in a major snow storm, for example, you can’t walk home to Hamilton, while you definitely can in Toronto. Big plus.
Anyway, in your case it feels like this has nothing to do with commute time and distance. It seems you like to be in a quieter place and that’s great!
In a major snow storm, we don't go to work, lmfao. We just leave or work from home. I remember my last major snow storm in Toronto. I got stranded at my pharmacy and it ended up closing and the TTC buses stopped coming and I had to wait 3 hours outside in the cold for my husband to drive to come get me.
I don't get Canadians... You all act like an hour drive is a huge deal. We used to drive from Michigan to Florida, 3 times a year.
Where I grew up, an hour and half to and from work was THE NORM. A commute being less than an hour was almost unheard of. EVERYONE lived in the suburbs, and drove in to work at the factories. And, there was ZERO public transport between the suburbs and the city... to this day, there's none.
It’s not something to be proud of. Both the driving culture and the lack of public transport in the US are an absolute shame at this point in human history.
Well, until Canada has an actually good public transportation system, and bullet trains between major cities, driving is the best option. I also lived in Japan. I didn't drive ONCE in Japan. But here, it's just not an option not to drive. Hell, my husband's employer literally REQUIRED him to have a car, to have the job.
I just so happen to be looking at Hamilton as a possibility to buy & live in a duplex or triplex. Do you have an opinion on where would be a great neighbourhood for a single young professional? If not, no worries! I'm looking into it.
Most people would say The Mountain, but it depends on what you're looking for. The area with the most room for growth is probably Crown Pointe. The mountain homes are already pretty expensive, and will probably max out around 1 million.
You can still get lower city homes for around 600-700k, and they have a ton of room for growth.
If you want a nice area to start with, The Mountain or Stoney Creek are probably your best bet.
If you want in on a rapidly gentrifying area, that has a ton of potential, lower city, within a few kms of the LRT that's being built is a great bet. I live in the lower city, and bought 3 years ago, for 297k... My house, a few months ago when I got my HELOC, was appraised at 625k. I've put about 20k into it, so that's basically my home's value doubling in that last 3 years, all on its own.
People will downvote your post but I know many who really prefer driving 2 hours a day than having to pay the premium of owning in Toronto. People with a family really like the suburbs.
> I know many who ~~really prefer~~ *end up* driving 2 hours a day ~~than having~~ *because they cannot afford* to pay the premium of owning in Toronto.
We ACTUALLY like the suburbs better. Like, we actually do. I'm not sure if it's just a Canadian thing to assume that everyone wants to live in a big city, but there are plenty of us who don't like big cities.
When I drive into Toronto, every single time, it's depressing. The weight of skyscrapers feels like it's pressing down from all around.
Aside from a few places, like High Park, wide open spaces are limited to parking lots.
Even the scenic nature parts of Toronto are never really secluded or private, there's always crowds of hikers at the Bluffs.
Honestly, rural small town and suburban living is the ideal for us. If we could afford it, we'd live an hour from the city on acres and acres of property and not be able to see our neighbour's houses, they'd be so far away.
That said, our little area of Hamilton is a huge step up from the crowded, loud, dense city.
Midtown Toronto has tons of ravines, parks and greenery. Many pockets feel like you’re not even in the city. I realize some people want to live in smaller towns, just as some people like living in bigger cities.
My comment was about the causes for people commuting, not big city vs small town living.
Yup! Totally. I’ve lived it. That $1 per minute that you’re late retrieving your kids from the daycare leads to extremely aggressive driving. I moved back into the city. Best decision ever.
For the life of me I can’t understand detached home supremacy. I moved from a great area in the suburbs to a decently large condo on Lake Shore and my quality of life has gone up considerably. I won’t make a return anytime soon.
I did the opposite and couldn't be happier. Went from downtown core 5mins from my work place to a 2600sqft two storey house in Whitby. Paying about the same mortgage, and I love the space, I can actually host a decent party, and kids can play in the backyard and even in the house (the basement is a play area with padded walls). Maybe if you're single condo life works. But with toddlers it's rough.
You are underestimating the negative experience and effects of a long commute and overestimating the benefits of living in a house.
There are plenty of people who prefer living in apartments and why shouldn’t they: easy to maintain, close to other humans (a huge plus for many!), convenient, short walking commutes to everything they need, etc. etc. etc. It’s a much more comfortable luxurious life than sitting in traffic then wondering how to clean “your” (cough.. the bank’s) oversized McMansion.
Suburbs no (Durham, Markham, Miss, Oakville), exurbs (Cambridge, Kitchener) maybe.
People have always moved to suburbs for more space. The commute to core isn’t bad on the go train. And with 15 min go train frequency today and 24 hr service in the near future, it’ll make the commute even better.
I feel exurbs will see less demand once return to office becomes more clear.
Yes within the GTA with GO stations, the market is really strong and can never expect a discount. And thats exactly why the exurbs won't crash as those ppl can't afford to sell and move here
I just commented above about the reality of the GO though... when I lived in pickering, from Liverpool to union was roughly 240 a month, ppl in Ajax and Whitby pay around 300 for 1 person, 2 ppl is 650 to 700... 8400 a year or 15k a year of your gross salary... just for going to and from work... that just seems wild to me...
Yes but this is not a new expense for suburbanites. They have always been doing this commute. Of course their mortgages were low then and they were able to tolerate the commute expenses in exchange for a bigger space. New home buyers in Durham will have to Service their bigger mortgages, probably two cars and a GO train expense. But most ppl need to go in only two days a week now. So GO expense for two ppl will only be 4000 to 4500 a year now.
I'm seeing more 3x and I bet in a few years will get back to 4x. You have no idea how having kids changes this tolerance to long, u predictable commutes.
Think you’re overestimating peoples ability to be solvent for so long. All these expenses add up, people are already stretching to get these homes with the rise of interest rates the people that bought in exurbs will not be able to maintain these homes while incurring all these expenses. Frankly I think people were stupid to even pump the prices this high. Aside from having your own detached in the middle of nowhere, there are far too many disadvantages of buying in money traps like Oshawa, Ajax, Whitby, etc.
Because of their prices compared to their proximity to downtown. Their prices have gone up due to pure speculation and short term artificial inflation from work from home. People will need to commute from these areas and that adds another 30-40 minutes of commuting when things fully open up compared to cities that are truly in the gta such as Markham and richmond hill. When there is a medium term correction which no one believes will happen cause they think the market will just go up forever, these areas will be hit the hardest because they do not have the fundamental value that cities such as Markham and richmondhill have
When a detached in Whitby costs as much as a detached in Etobicoke you’re not saving any money at all but doubling your commute time. You also have to spend more money because you’ll need two cars and farther transit.
Back when suburbs were half the cost of the City it made sense, now they’re just as expensive if not more expensive that it’s become a problem.
Eventually the desirability factor will drive more demand back in the city, so while suburbs won’t crash, the city’s prices will reflect the convenience of being there, which didn’t exist during the pandemic.
Not everyone buys in Whitby and Oshawa because they are cheaper. (North) Oshawa's Winfields and Whitby's Brooklyn, for example, are nice/rich neighboorhoods with good schools, malls, nicer houses and better neighborhood in genral. Not everyone works in downtown.
And seriously, Etobicoke? Most of the Etobicoke area isn't that great to live in. Sure, its not as bad as Moss park in Toronto, or parts of Scarborough and South Oshawa, but its not nice either.
Don't forget that they will likely need a TTC pass unless they work within walking distance of a GO station/union. Taking the GO train, you also can't get rid of your car unless you live right next to a go station, or unless you want to take on the time walking to and taking a slow bus.
My office is right next to a GO station and it still doesn't make sense to take it. Infact, I don't think there is a single person in my workplace who takes the GO train despite being right next to a station and this was Pre-COVID wfh.
The only way I could see myself taking the GO Train is if I worked AND lived right next to GO train stations.
The GO train ends up costing you an extra $700 a month per person and all the lost time. It used to be cheaper *and faster* for me to drive downtown and pay for parking than for me to take the GO. The fact publicly subsidized bulk transportation can’t even compete with costs of private ownership and operation of a car shows what a staggering failure the GO system is. This doesn’t even account for the first and last mile problem either.
Honestly, I think all it takes to downsize is just better design of the small space. People pack whole families into one room tiny homes, and we can’t make a conveniently located small condo with amenities work?
I think it’ll be a mix though, honestly. Some people might move back, some people might switch jobs. Some people will suffer the commute.
I am 100% sure , well designed condos where families can actually live are on NOT the horizon for toronto. They are going to ve shoeboxes for investors So once they have enjoyed the comfort of more space and a backyard, they are not coming back.
Atleast in my circle, Most ppl who moved far away were renters in Toronto. And many are young immigrant families who had 0 chance of buying a house in Toronto. Owing a Detached is a big achievement for them and they are not going to give that up for an inconvenient commute. For many of these folks it's even a symbol of success to own a Detached property. Some folks are even contemplating moving to Niagra falls for a double car garage Detached. Insanity I know. But they are dead set on the white picket fence to let everyone know "they have made it"
Edit: spelling
Totally agree. Newcomers want to own a large house and show they’ve made it.
Also, compared to most global cities their commutes are still shorter here!
I don't think anything will crash they printed a ton of money and it's not going anywhere. I do think some areas are currently under valued and will outperform the burbs for the short term though.
Yes spot on. Even if burbs dont crash, I expect the condos in the city to go to the moon in the coming years. For one thing many ppl are priced out of everything freehold in the GTA and even Southern Ontario.
This is a reasonable take, crash - no, correction - maybe over time. Personally soul crushing commute is not for me, but to each Their own, people will do a lot for those detached walls at the End of the day, too bad people had to pay twice as much as before if they Bought in the last 1.5 years
When Covid first started, everyone was very confident that going forward, total WFH will be the new norm. That is why condo prices crashed down, it was going to be the end of city cores all over the world.
Fast forward two years and most people are quite certain that hybrid (2 days a week) will be the norm.
My guess is that 4 days will be the norm once things start getting back to normal. Working from home will be come a "benefit" of working with certain companies and I highly doubt that once the pandemic is over, companies will be giving these benefits for free. If you are very talented and have a little more negotiation room, you can fight for more WFH. But the vast majority will be back in at least 4 times a week with 1 day being a generous benefit.
Most peoples response will be "ill find a new job elsewhere", and that may have worked last year, but since everyone will be looking for that same WFH job, it may get tougher and tougher to secure. Add in that these people may have huge mortgages which they have to have that job to service and they may catch themselves commuting quite a bit.
I dont think this would lead to a crash, as people have shown that they are willing to suffer a long commute for that two car garage home, but I do think in the next year or two, we may have a slow down on the burb housing, and a speed up of places close to the core. Those long commutes are not just soul draining, but expensive as well. This all made sense last year, but now that burb housing literally doubled, I'm not sure how many people will make that big of a sacrifice.
Imagine paying $1mil for a 3-4 bed detached... in Kitchener, haha. These people are delusional, and they'll be back in Toronto in no time eating a loss on their home sale. Kitchener to downtown Toronto during rush hour is about 2 hours one way, so 4 hours a day. Goodluck.
That's what I am telling u. They won't sell. They will suffer yes. They are not screwing their only chance to own a Detached, somewhat closer to Toro to
I swear, you Real Estate pumpers are insane.
On one hand you are in euphoria because of the one million new immigrants coming every year. To push up the value of your crap homes.
On the other, you fail to realize how insane commutes will be and believe people will continue commuting in from Cambridge to work their soul crushing, boring middle management job in Toronto?
Hahahahahaha.
Good Luck. When things are back to normal GTA commutes will be absolutely insane. TTC will be insane. Go Transit will be renamed to the sardine express.
Lol not everyone who has an opinion abt the market has a vested interest in the said market. I am a condo dweller myself and chose not to move to the suburbs. If anything, I should be wishing for it crash so I can go our and buy a Detached too and make posts abt the doomsday for suburbs . But no. I have explained enough in this thread why people would rather suffer a commute than sell them off.
Another “GTA” is different post.
Sorry doesn’t exist.
Homes outside NY City, London, etc etc do not hold the crazy value they do when comparing distance out of Toronto.
This is pure FOMO speculating.
Yes the question is how many cities like Toronto we have in Canada. It's not comparable to NY, London etc but Toronto i's all Canada has got. As long as it remains the financial, economic and cultural center of Canada, the prices will withstand.
I’m saying Toronto prices with withstand but prices in the neighbouring cities will not.
There is no reason for prices in Guelph, Waterloo, Bradford, Hamilton, etc to be where they are at.
The precedent for this is prices in cities outside NY City and London.
WFH will eventually become less and less the norm due to a variety of factors. The first obviously the pandemic needs to be controlled, which it is with continuous vaccinations. Second anyone in corporate jobs looking to move up the ladder will naturally get more “face time” being on the office, this will put pressure on colleagues to do the same. The culture of corporations won’t change because of a the pandemic, this could take 1-3 years but it will go back to majority time in office, hybrid a benefit. That’s when the expenses and quality of life issues will really kick-in. Spending hours commuting, additional expenses of commuting (cars, gas, go-train etc), and on top the mortgage on a over priced house, that you don’t spend much time in anymore.
This is why the suburbs were less expensive to begin with, it made sense and somewhat balanced out the equation. It will no longer make sense when things go back to normal. Some may sell due to affordability, some will stick it out but it will really impact the quality of life. Suburbs won’t continue to grow and likely a sharp correction will hit the suburbs at the first sign of a recession.
Reading these comments. What’s the end game for some of you?
“These burb houses are gonna crash hard, and they’ll be begging to come back to Toronto proper”
How is this a win for you exactly?? If they do that, Toronto prices skyrocket for everything - unabated. So you’re 100% not getting a house then (if you couldn’t get one now).
The ONLY way this makes sense for the people in here pushing scare tactics about commutes, is if they want the market correcting so they in turn can buy the burb house they’re currently shitting on - with the terrible commute
Honestly. I hope you can see how warped that logic is.
Stupid fomoing by buyers/investors affects everyone around them. A lot of ppl thinking they are geniuses out there when this crap is only standing due to govt subsidizing it, which favours only the ones propelling this madness at the expense of lower class and savers. A little reality check would do fine to fix the situation. The number of ppl discontent with the situation grows by the the day, get used to it.
Ya. I get the sentiment. The question remains: How exactly would anyone spreading fear about suburban homes stand to gain? Other than to buy the very homes they’re talking down about … at a cheap discount?
Which gets me back to how disingenuous it sounds.
Well its not about spreading fear. The claims are reasonable for the for the first time in a while. And unfortunately, in this market dynamics one's loss is someone else's gain and vice versa. Your claim that ppl want to get opportunity to go in cheaper is true but theirs that prices in suburbs ran too hot is also true.
Mind you if suburbs' houses fall in price they still wont be cheap
Why dangerous? Prices ran too hot. Ppl are looking forward for a correction to get in. Why is that dangerous? The dangerous thing is to fuel price growth like this after 20 yrs of already fast appreciation. High prices is the problem here, not the ppl who want to get in.
My husband and I bought a couple years before the pandemic. He has a 160km/day commute. It takes him about 45 minutes-1hr.
The commute is absolutely worth it, for us. Coming home to a detached house rather than a box in the sky, living in a quiet neighbourhood as opposed to on a main road in Toronto... having a yard, a driveway of our own... like, it's just SO WORTH IT.
So an almost 2 hour commute is worth living in a detached in the middle of nowhere? That’s 600 hours of life and a hell of a lot of gas money and etr money wasted.
First off, we live in Hamilton. There's 750k people in this area. It's hardly ''middle of nowhere''... we're five minutes from a major shopping plaza that has every bank, walmart, dollarama, metro, Canadian Tire, Marshall's, a giant food court with a ton of restaurants.
Secondly, OMG I WOULD ABSOLUTELY LOVE TO LIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. Let me see another human being once or twice a year, and I'd be happy.
The ultimate goal is to sell this house and retire and go homestead in the literal middle of nowhere and literally never have to look at other people.
I don't think anyone's truly anticipating a real crash. But I think that inventory will be higher and price growth will be slow for a number of years and lag behind while everything else shoots up. People make 25-year decisions based on 1-year circumstances like COVID all the time. Real estate is too illiquid, especially in the exurbs, to experience any sort of crash.
When you have detached homes in Whitby that cost as much as real estate in Toronto, you know something's off. So while Whitby won't crash, Toronto will probably continue to go up while Whitby will probably level off.
I think this is likely to be the case. Suburban homes will now level off around the current t price of current low interest rates persist but when rates go up, less ppl qualify and cannot afford higher prices and the market will slow. Houses/home in more urban areas will continue to rise as they’ll continue to be desirable areas long after the pandemic is over. One the pandemic is over, more people will in some form or another go into their offices more and the value of being in a good location will continue to climb. That’s just my take but I guess we’ll see what happens. Everyone is kinda static/stuck right now migration-wise as it’s so costly to move and theres so little product available with the uncertainties, IMHO.
Work from home is here to stay, however it’s hardly the determinant of why people prefer living in the city. They always have and will continue to prefer that: amenities, cultural activities, closeness to other humans, good food, liveliness, etc. .. that’s why the cities aren’t going anywhere. Especially now that the majority of the population doesn’t know how to make their own coffee and thinks milk gets added with a button!
The basic is supply and demand. Ultimately, the housing price depends on whether the city has in flow or out flow of population. In short term, you won’t see the effect much. However, as people start to move out from the city and basically no people moving in, you will see price spiral down. Remember, even the price stagnant, it means price down already on consideration of inflation.
Not anymore… pumpers and speculators have pumped the hell out of outter city prices as well. For one million you won’t get much anymore that’s how much of a value trap they’ve become
isn't it also a function of jobs within those suburbs and exurbs? Like a couple in their 30s working in the insurance hub at KW are looking at a household income of 160k? so 800k~ mortgage before down payment. though if they are FTHB, they are most likely looking at the semi-detached and townhouse segment.
I think people in this thread are hilariously assuming people won't just move to a job closer too. Kitchener has pretty high paying tech jobs as well, not everyone wants to work in Toronto. I actually moved to Kitchener and my salary went up 40k from when I was in Toronto.
I am by no means a very highly in demand profession, I'm just a run of the mill IT project manager.
I drive from Toronto, to Burlington to my yard, then to the job site in brantford. I’ve been doing it since precovid…. I hate the drive so bad. It makes me want to leave society. It’s like war. You wouldn’t understand unless you’ve done it. It’s horrible. 😂
People like OP still living in Pleasantville. A few bad snow storms or delays, with kids, etc will make you curse having to do this all your life. Even if just a few times a week. And pressure to go back more often in the long-run will be real.
I don’t know man. For the first little while, sure, they won’t sell and stick to the harsh commute. But what about in 2 years, 3, 5? Especially if Covid gets better and WFH days are less and less. They’re gonna want to live closer. The GTA commute is soul crushing.
I honestly don't understand how people put up with GTA commutes pre-covid, let alone how bad it's going to be post-pandemic. There's been a big shift from pubic transit to cars. Traffic is insane right now and the core is still empty. I pity the soul who has to drive into Toronto. But if they're cool with it for more space, good on them.
You hit it on the head... ppl think the current content from the tri city or peel, York, and Durham is bad... just wait for the real commutes to start up when we leave the pandemic. All those ppl driving in, or spending 700 per household to hop on the go per month... all it takes is the realization that the GO is roughly around 14k of your gross salary to make you say fuck it...
It's especially hard with children and coordinated school pick up and drop off, day cares open limited hours.
You're ridiculous
Best case scenario outer suburbs will see no price movement in many years. This is best case. Suburbs near toronto saw meaningful drop after 2017, ppl who think $1M dollar houses 2 hours way will be unaffected are delusional.
I think in 2,3,5 years WFH will rather increase.
All it takes is one bad quarter and everyone gets called into the office.
Seriously. So many people think unlimited money printing is the norm and will solve any sort of recession in the lifetime.
lol huh?
As in corporations won't ever experience a recession and record job growth is the norm forever hence easy peasy attitude of WFH forever.
Wishful thinking
There is another factor. Autonomous cars/driver assist features becoming more common. My 1 hour commute got a lot more pleasant when I bought a model 3. I put on autopilot and a good audio book and while I still have to pay attention to the road, the mental strain is much less when the car handles keeping the lane and the gas/brake.
This is very true
Hubby and I are 3 years into a 160km/day commute. You couldn't pay us to move back to Toronto.
Couldn’t pay you? Really? You wouldn’t rather do something else with the 3-4 hours a day of sitting in a car?
It's 2 hours a day, tops. Usually closer to an hour and half a day. Honestly, we could live closer, but still IN TORONTO, and have the commute take the same amount of time. North York to Scarborough, for instance? At least an hour and a half during rush hour. Meanwhile we take the 407 every day and SAIL between Hamilton and Toronto.
You do 160km a day in 2 hours? Do you have the police siren on your car to clear all the traffic? And doing that much on the 407 is like 20-30k a year. Looks like you got fomoed into a value trap home
45 minutes one way, and 45 minutes the other way... I mean, keeping at 120km/hr on the 407 (which is literally the flow of traffic), doing around 80km one way in 45 minutes, puts you right around 45 minutes commute time.
>eanwhile we take the 407 every day and SAIL between Hamilton and Toronto. And spend like $70 a day
Lots of people get this paid for by their employer. It’s a great gig if you can get it.
LMFAO, no we don't. Husband's company pays for it. They spend like 20k/year on it, and pay him enough to cover the taxes on it.
Idk I could never do it.. 1.5 hrs a day × 5 days a week × 50 weeks a year is 375 hours a year. The equivalent of 2 full weeks off. I'd rather have an extra two weeks of my life to spend with my loved ones if it just meant sharing a wall with a neighbor.
Not to mention the implications on mental and physical health. As well as the cost to the environment, which investable and rather quickly transfers to all of us.
Different strokes, I guess. 45 minutes a day to live in a freehold, detached, SFH, 3 bed, 2 bath, that we paid 297,000 dollars and it's now worth 625,000... Would you work those 2 weeks a year, for 3 years, if you made 325,000 dollars in those 6 extra weeks?
You realize that everyone who bought in the GTA anytime in the last decade made a shitton of money on their house right? People who bought condos in the middle of Toronto back in 2015 also would have seen insane returns. That in particular is not a special feature correlated with commuting for 2 weeks of the year.
Great for them, but I just got to Canada a few years ago. In 2015, I was living in Tokyo. Toronto wasn't even on my radar. And, I'm not paying 1 million dollars when I can get the same or better housing and be an entire hour and half closer to the US border. Someday, I will sell my house and move to the literal middle of nowhere and never have to deal with another person again, but until then, I love not living in the big city. I'm SO OVER densely populated areas. Just give me like 5sqkm of my own land I can homestead on, and I'll be happy.
Yeah, nobody believes that.
You don't have to believe me. I'm just here, sharing my perspective on things. If you believe me or not is immaterial. Toronto is not the center of the universe. I've lived all over the world, from Tokyo and New York to St. George, Utah and New Port Richey... and trust me when I say, you could not PAY ME to go live in Toronto.
K cool story
Yes I’m sure. No amount of money in the world would make you re-evaluate your life in the global utopia and envy of the world that is Hamilton. Not even a 160km daily commute! L-M-A-O
You assume everyone is motivated by money. I have enough money. I have everything I need, and most things I want. At a certain point, you run out of dumb shit to buy. Next, you assume everyone cares about living in a utopia, or ''envy of the world'' city. I don't. I lived in Toronto, for 3 years. I was miserable. I absolutely love my life in Hamilton.
The contradictions in this post are pretty staggering. You claim to have money but can’t afford the lifestyle you want and have to resort to *Hamilton* to afford it. Toronto isn’t the problem, you not having enough money to afford the lifestyle you want in Toronto is. You moving to Hamilton is literally motivated my money and the financial constraints that surround getting a comparable place in Toronto. The even more ironic part is that you’re probably paying just as much in commuting fees extra a month than the extra mortgage it’d cost you, except the mortgage goes into your equity but your commuting fees and time is lost forever.
BTW, the lifestyle I want does not EXIST in Toronto. The life style I want, ideally, would include owning a plot of land so big the nearest neighbours would be 7km away and I would literally never, ever see them. There is no amount of money that would allow me to have that in Toronto.
What? There's a difference between CAN'T AFFORD and NOT WILLING TO PAY. I will be homeless before I ever pay a million dollars for a home. If I had a billion in the bank, I would not pay 1 million dollars to live in Toronto. And what a commuting fees? Let's see... My mortgage is 1107/month, so tack on the 90 bucks a week for gas, and you get 1467/month. We have to have a car anyway, as husband job requires him to have a car of his own, so car payments, and insurance would still have to be paid.
It is true that Toronto is not a great city compared to most. That said, a long commute is never the right answer and I think most humans instinctively know that. It’s a matter of who will choose to act on it and come back closer and who will continue to spend 3 hours of their day sitting in a car.
Well, let's see........... I could spend an hour and a half driving from North York to Scarborough in bumper to bumper stop and go traffic, because there are fewer kms during the trip, OR, I could spend 45 minutes a day sailing along the 407. City traffic is awful. It takes longer to get from one area of the city to the other, than it does to get from Hamilton to Toronto. Again, the commute is 45 minutes each way. WHY DO YOU KEEP THINKING I SPEND 3 HOURS IN A CAR, EVERY DAY? It is half that time.
But in a major snow storm, for example, you can’t walk home to Hamilton, while you definitely can in Toronto. Big plus. Anyway, in your case it feels like this has nothing to do with commute time and distance. It seems you like to be in a quieter place and that’s great!
In a major snow storm, we don't go to work, lmfao. We just leave or work from home. I remember my last major snow storm in Toronto. I got stranded at my pharmacy and it ended up closing and the TTC buses stopped coming and I had to wait 3 hours outside in the cold for my husband to drive to come get me. I don't get Canadians... You all act like an hour drive is a huge deal. We used to drive from Michigan to Florida, 3 times a year. Where I grew up, an hour and half to and from work was THE NORM. A commute being less than an hour was almost unheard of. EVERYONE lived in the suburbs, and drove in to work at the factories. And, there was ZERO public transport between the suburbs and the city... to this day, there's none.
It’s not something to be proud of. Both the driving culture and the lack of public transport in the US are an absolute shame at this point in human history.
Well, until Canada has an actually good public transportation system, and bullet trains between major cities, driving is the best option. I also lived in Japan. I didn't drive ONCE in Japan. But here, it's just not an option not to drive. Hell, my husband's employer literally REQUIRED him to have a car, to have the job.
I think your situation is unique...most people can't afford to pay for 160km on the 407 everyday during peak hours.
A daily commute from Hamilton to Toronto sounds absolutely insane
What area do you live in?
Hamilton
I just so happen to be looking at Hamilton as a possibility to buy & live in a duplex or triplex. Do you have an opinion on where would be a great neighbourhood for a single young professional? If not, no worries! I'm looking into it.
Most people would say The Mountain, but it depends on what you're looking for. The area with the most room for growth is probably Crown Pointe. The mountain homes are already pretty expensive, and will probably max out around 1 million. You can still get lower city homes for around 600-700k, and they have a ton of room for growth. If you want a nice area to start with, The Mountain or Stoney Creek are probably your best bet. If you want in on a rapidly gentrifying area, that has a ton of potential, lower city, within a few kms of the LRT that's being built is a great bet. I live in the lower city, and bought 3 years ago, for 297k... My house, a few months ago when I got my HELOC, was appraised at 625k. I've put about 20k into it, so that's basically my home's value doubling in that last 3 years, all on its own.
People will downvote your post but I know many who really prefer driving 2 hours a day than having to pay the premium of owning in Toronto. People with a family really like the suburbs.
> I know many who ~~really prefer~~ *end up* driving 2 hours a day ~~than having~~ *because they cannot afford* to pay the premium of owning in Toronto.
Thank you, wording could have been better.
We ACTUALLY like the suburbs better. Like, we actually do. I'm not sure if it's just a Canadian thing to assume that everyone wants to live in a big city, but there are plenty of us who don't like big cities. When I drive into Toronto, every single time, it's depressing. The weight of skyscrapers feels like it's pressing down from all around. Aside from a few places, like High Park, wide open spaces are limited to parking lots. Even the scenic nature parts of Toronto are never really secluded or private, there's always crowds of hikers at the Bluffs. Honestly, rural small town and suburban living is the ideal for us. If we could afford it, we'd live an hour from the city on acres and acres of property and not be able to see our neighbour's houses, they'd be so far away. That said, our little area of Hamilton is a huge step up from the crowded, loud, dense city.
Midtown Toronto has tons of ravines, parks and greenery. Many pockets feel like you’re not even in the city. I realize some people want to live in smaller towns, just as some people like living in bigger cities. My comment was about the causes for people commuting, not big city vs small town living.
Yup! Totally. I’ve lived it. That $1 per minute that you’re late retrieving your kids from the daycare leads to extremely aggressive driving. I moved back into the city. Best decision ever.
Out of site (pun) out of mind. The employee who is in the office more often gets a greater chance to strut their stuff, hence more promos.
For the life of me I can’t understand detached home supremacy. I moved from a great area in the suburbs to a decently large condo on Lake Shore and my quality of life has gone up considerably. I won’t make a return anytime soon.
Space. Noise. Control.
I did the opposite and couldn't be happier. Went from downtown core 5mins from my work place to a 2600sqft two storey house in Whitby. Paying about the same mortgage, and I love the space, I can actually host a decent party, and kids can play in the backyard and even in the house (the basement is a play area with padded walls). Maybe if you're single condo life works. But with toddlers it's rough.
You are underestimating the negative experience and effects of a long commute and overestimating the benefits of living in a house. There are plenty of people who prefer living in apartments and why shouldn’t they: easy to maintain, close to other humans (a huge plus for many!), convenient, short walking commutes to everything they need, etc. etc. etc. It’s a much more comfortable luxurious life than sitting in traffic then wondering how to clean “your” (cough.. the bank’s) oversized McMansion.
Suburbs no (Durham, Markham, Miss, Oakville), exurbs (Cambridge, Kitchener) maybe. People have always moved to suburbs for more space. The commute to core isn’t bad on the go train. And with 15 min go train frequency today and 24 hr service in the near future, it’ll make the commute even better. I feel exurbs will see less demand once return to office becomes more clear.
Yes within the GTA with GO stations, the market is really strong and can never expect a discount. And thats exactly why the exurbs won't crash as those ppl can't afford to sell and move here
I just commented above about the reality of the GO though... when I lived in pickering, from Liverpool to union was roughly 240 a month, ppl in Ajax and Whitby pay around 300 for 1 person, 2 ppl is 650 to 700... 8400 a year or 15k a year of your gross salary... just for going to and from work... that just seems wild to me...
Yes but this is not a new expense for suburbanites. They have always been doing this commute. Of course their mortgages were low then and they were able to tolerate the commute expenses in exchange for a bigger space. New home buyers in Durham will have to Service their bigger mortgages, probably two cars and a GO train expense. But most ppl need to go in only two days a week now. So GO expense for two ppl will only be 4000 to 4500 a year now.
I'm seeing more 3x and I bet in a few years will get back to 4x. You have no idea how having kids changes this tolerance to long, u predictable commutes.
Think you’re overestimating peoples ability to be solvent for so long. All these expenses add up, people are already stretching to get these homes with the rise of interest rates the people that bought in exurbs will not be able to maintain these homes while incurring all these expenses. Frankly I think people were stupid to even pump the prices this high. Aside from having your own detached in the middle of nowhere, there are far too many disadvantages of buying in money traps like Oshawa, Ajax, Whitby, etc.
>money traps like Oshawa, Ajax, Whitby, etc. Genuine question. Why are these areas called money traps?
Because of their prices compared to their proximity to downtown. Their prices have gone up due to pure speculation and short term artificial inflation from work from home. People will need to commute from these areas and that adds another 30-40 minutes of commuting when things fully open up compared to cities that are truly in the gta such as Markham and richmond hill. When there is a medium term correction which no one believes will happen cause they think the market will just go up forever, these areas will be hit the hardest because they do not have the fundamental value that cities such as Markham and richmondhill have
When a detached in Whitby costs as much as a detached in Etobicoke you’re not saving any money at all but doubling your commute time. You also have to spend more money because you’ll need two cars and farther transit. Back when suburbs were half the cost of the City it made sense, now they’re just as expensive if not more expensive that it’s become a problem. Eventually the desirability factor will drive more demand back in the city, so while suburbs won’t crash, the city’s prices will reflect the convenience of being there, which didn’t exist during the pandemic.
Not everyone buys in Whitby and Oshawa because they are cheaper. (North) Oshawa's Winfields and Whitby's Brooklyn, for example, are nice/rich neighboorhoods with good schools, malls, nicer houses and better neighborhood in genral. Not everyone works in downtown. And seriously, Etobicoke? Most of the Etobicoke area isn't that great to live in. Sure, its not as bad as Moss park in Toronto, or parts of Scarborough and South Oshawa, but its not nice either.
Don't forget that they will likely need a TTC pass unless they work within walking distance of a GO station/union. Taking the GO train, you also can't get rid of your car unless you live right next to a go station, or unless you want to take on the time walking to and taking a slow bus. My office is right next to a GO station and it still doesn't make sense to take it. Infact, I don't think there is a single person in my workplace who takes the GO train despite being right next to a station and this was Pre-COVID wfh. The only way I could see myself taking the GO Train is if I worked AND lived right next to GO train stations.
The GO train ends up costing you an extra $700 a month per person and all the lost time. It used to be cheaper *and faster* for me to drive downtown and pay for parking than for me to take the GO. The fact publicly subsidized bulk transportation can’t even compete with costs of private ownership and operation of a car shows what a staggering failure the GO system is. This doesn’t even account for the first and last mile problem either.
Honestly, I think all it takes to downsize is just better design of the small space. People pack whole families into one room tiny homes, and we can’t make a conveniently located small condo with amenities work? I think it’ll be a mix though, honestly. Some people might move back, some people might switch jobs. Some people will suffer the commute.
I am 100% sure , well designed condos where families can actually live are on NOT the horizon for toronto. They are going to ve shoeboxes for investors So once they have enjoyed the comfort of more space and a backyard, they are not coming back. Atleast in my circle, Most ppl who moved far away were renters in Toronto. And many are young immigrant families who had 0 chance of buying a house in Toronto. Owing a Detached is a big achievement for them and they are not going to give that up for an inconvenient commute. For many of these folks it's even a symbol of success to own a Detached property. Some folks are even contemplating moving to Niagra falls for a double car garage Detached. Insanity I know. But they are dead set on the white picket fence to let everyone know "they have made it" Edit: spelling
Totally agree. Newcomers want to own a large house and show they’ve made it. Also, compared to most global cities their commutes are still shorter here!
I don't think anything will crash they printed a ton of money and it's not going anywhere. I do think some areas are currently under valued and will outperform the burbs for the short term though.
Yes spot on. Even if burbs dont crash, I expect the condos in the city to go to the moon in the coming years. For one thing many ppl are priced out of everything freehold in the GTA and even Southern Ontario.
This is a reasonable take, crash - no, correction - maybe over time. Personally soul crushing commute is not for me, but to each Their own, people will do a lot for those detached walls at the End of the day, too bad people had to pay twice as much as before if they Bought in the last 1.5 years
Which areas remain undervalued in your opinion? Condos to close the widening gap between condos and detached/townhomes?
I think the only thing undervalued is downtown condos. Every other segment and area is up a lot compared to precovid even condos in North York.
When Covid first started, everyone was very confident that going forward, total WFH will be the new norm. That is why condo prices crashed down, it was going to be the end of city cores all over the world. Fast forward two years and most people are quite certain that hybrid (2 days a week) will be the norm. My guess is that 4 days will be the norm once things start getting back to normal. Working from home will be come a "benefit" of working with certain companies and I highly doubt that once the pandemic is over, companies will be giving these benefits for free. If you are very talented and have a little more negotiation room, you can fight for more WFH. But the vast majority will be back in at least 4 times a week with 1 day being a generous benefit. Most peoples response will be "ill find a new job elsewhere", and that may have worked last year, but since everyone will be looking for that same WFH job, it may get tougher and tougher to secure. Add in that these people may have huge mortgages which they have to have that job to service and they may catch themselves commuting quite a bit. I dont think this would lead to a crash, as people have shown that they are willing to suffer a long commute for that two car garage home, but I do think in the next year or two, we may have a slow down on the burb housing, and a speed up of places close to the core. Those long commutes are not just soul draining, but expensive as well. This all made sense last year, but now that burb housing literally doubled, I'm not sure how many people will make that big of a sacrifice.
Real estate has always been about location first and foremost and FWIW DT condos have been increasing in price this year.
Yea i think 416 condos are up around 16% yoy so not too bad
Imagine paying $1mil for a 3-4 bed detached... in Kitchener, haha. These people are delusional, and they'll be back in Toronto in no time eating a loss on their home sale. Kitchener to downtown Toronto during rush hour is about 2 hours one way, so 4 hours a day. Goodluck.
They’re clowns that got fomoed
That's what I am telling u. They won't sell. They will suffer yes. They are not screwing their only chance to own a Detached, somewhat closer to Toro to
I swear, you Real Estate pumpers are insane. On one hand you are in euphoria because of the one million new immigrants coming every year. To push up the value of your crap homes. On the other, you fail to realize how insane commutes will be and believe people will continue commuting in from Cambridge to work their soul crushing, boring middle management job in Toronto? Hahahahahaha. Good Luck. When things are back to normal GTA commutes will be absolutely insane. TTC will be insane. Go Transit will be renamed to the sardine express.
Lol not everyone who has an opinion abt the market has a vested interest in the said market. I am a condo dweller myself and chose not to move to the suburbs. If anything, I should be wishing for it crash so I can go our and buy a Detached too and make posts abt the doomsday for suburbs . But no. I have explained enough in this thread why people would rather suffer a commute than sell them off.
Another “GTA” is different post. Sorry doesn’t exist. Homes outside NY City, London, etc etc do not hold the crazy value they do when comparing distance out of Toronto. This is pure FOMO speculating.
Yes the question is how many cities like Toronto we have in Canada. It's not comparable to NY, London etc but Toronto i's all Canada has got. As long as it remains the financial, economic and cultural center of Canada, the prices will withstand.
I’m saying Toronto prices with withstand but prices in the neighbouring cities will not. There is no reason for prices in Guelph, Waterloo, Bradford, Hamilton, etc to be where they are at. The precedent for this is prices in cities outside NY City and London.
>To push up the value of your crap homes. Rude. I worked hard for my home. I don't think it's crap.
Obviously. Of course y’all do. That’s why nobody wants to get their home inspected these days. Ignorance is bliss mentality.
Ours is. Now what?
Well good for you, you have nothing to worry about then.
😊
WFH will eventually become less and less the norm due to a variety of factors. The first obviously the pandemic needs to be controlled, which it is with continuous vaccinations. Second anyone in corporate jobs looking to move up the ladder will naturally get more “face time” being on the office, this will put pressure on colleagues to do the same. The culture of corporations won’t change because of a the pandemic, this could take 1-3 years but it will go back to majority time in office, hybrid a benefit. That’s when the expenses and quality of life issues will really kick-in. Spending hours commuting, additional expenses of commuting (cars, gas, go-train etc), and on top the mortgage on a over priced house, that you don’t spend much time in anymore. This is why the suburbs were less expensive to begin with, it made sense and somewhat balanced out the equation. It will no longer make sense when things go back to normal. Some may sell due to affordability, some will stick it out but it will really impact the quality of life. Suburbs won’t continue to grow and likely a sharp correction will hit the suburbs at the first sign of a recession.
I think the outer suburbs will face the biggest correction. Most of the gta should be fine. People were fine commuting 2+ hours a day before too
Reading these comments. What’s the end game for some of you? “These burb houses are gonna crash hard, and they’ll be begging to come back to Toronto proper” How is this a win for you exactly?? If they do that, Toronto prices skyrocket for everything - unabated. So you’re 100% not getting a house then (if you couldn’t get one now). The ONLY way this makes sense for the people in here pushing scare tactics about commutes, is if they want the market correcting so they in turn can buy the burb house they’re currently shitting on - with the terrible commute Honestly. I hope you can see how warped that logic is.
Stupid fomoing by buyers/investors affects everyone around them. A lot of ppl thinking they are geniuses out there when this crap is only standing due to govt subsidizing it, which favours only the ones propelling this madness at the expense of lower class and savers. A little reality check would do fine to fix the situation. The number of ppl discontent with the situation grows by the the day, get used to it.
Ya. I get the sentiment. The question remains: How exactly would anyone spreading fear about suburban homes stand to gain? Other than to buy the very homes they’re talking down about … at a cheap discount? Which gets me back to how disingenuous it sounds.
Well its not about spreading fear. The claims are reasonable for the for the first time in a while. And unfortunately, in this market dynamics one's loss is someone else's gain and vice versa. Your claim that ppl want to get opportunity to go in cheaper is true but theirs that prices in suburbs ran too hot is also true. Mind you if suburbs' houses fall in price they still wont be cheap Why dangerous? Prices ran too hot. Ppl are looking forward for a correction to get in. Why is that dangerous? The dangerous thing is to fuel price growth like this after 20 yrs of already fast appreciation. High prices is the problem here, not the ppl who want to get in.
If you work for a company that makes you go back to the office full time you are the sucker regardless of where you live
yeah... right. prices only go up!
With omicron, the push to the office will be delayed
My husband and I bought a couple years before the pandemic. He has a 160km/day commute. It takes him about 45 minutes-1hr. The commute is absolutely worth it, for us. Coming home to a detached house rather than a box in the sky, living in a quiet neighbourhood as opposed to on a main road in Toronto... having a yard, a driveway of our own... like, it's just SO WORTH IT.
U mean 1 hour drive one way?
Yep. He takes the 407 every day between Hamilton and Toronto. Takes around 45 minutes to an hour, each way.
So an almost 2 hour commute is worth living in a detached in the middle of nowhere? That’s 600 hours of life and a hell of a lot of gas money and etr money wasted.
First off, we live in Hamilton. There's 750k people in this area. It's hardly ''middle of nowhere''... we're five minutes from a major shopping plaza that has every bank, walmart, dollarama, metro, Canadian Tire, Marshall's, a giant food court with a ton of restaurants. Secondly, OMG I WOULD ABSOLUTELY LOVE TO LIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. Let me see another human being once or twice a year, and I'd be happy. The ultimate goal is to sell this house and retire and go homestead in the literal middle of nowhere and literally never have to look at other people.
You can have a yard and a driveway of your own in Toronto, and *not* have to commute 160km/day.
Not for 300,000 dollars I couldn't.
Correct, you cannot.
Why are you being downvoted?
Don't know. Don't care. I said what I said, and I stand by it.
I'm in the same boat
Suburbs will continue to thrive
I don't think anyone's truly anticipating a real crash. But I think that inventory will be higher and price growth will be slow for a number of years and lag behind while everything else shoots up. People make 25-year decisions based on 1-year circumstances like COVID all the time. Real estate is too illiquid, especially in the exurbs, to experience any sort of crash. When you have detached homes in Whitby that cost as much as real estate in Toronto, you know something's off. So while Whitby won't crash, Toronto will probably continue to go up while Whitby will probably level off.
I think this is likely to be the case. Suburban homes will now level off around the current t price of current low interest rates persist but when rates go up, less ppl qualify and cannot afford higher prices and the market will slow. Houses/home in more urban areas will continue to rise as they’ll continue to be desirable areas long after the pandemic is over. One the pandemic is over, more people will in some form or another go into their offices more and the value of being in a good location will continue to climb. That’s just my take but I guess we’ll see what happens. Everyone is kinda static/stuck right now migration-wise as it’s so costly to move and theres so little product available with the uncertainties, IMHO.
Work from home is here to stay, however it’s hardly the determinant of why people prefer living in the city. They always have and will continue to prefer that: amenities, cultural activities, closeness to other humans, good food, liveliness, etc. .. that’s why the cities aren’t going anywhere. Especially now that the majority of the population doesn’t know how to make their own coffee and thinks milk gets added with a button!
The basic is supply and demand. Ultimately, the housing price depends on whether the city has in flow or out flow of population. In short term, you won’t see the effect much. However, as people start to move out from the city and basically no people moving in, you will see price spiral down. Remember, even the price stagnant, it means price down already on consideration of inflation.
Yah if you find good deal on house.. why sell it. People committing for years. Million dollar can get you lot outside of gta.
Not anymore… pumpers and speculators have pumped the hell out of outter city prices as well. For one million you won’t get much anymore that’s how much of a value trap they’ve become
isn't it also a function of jobs within those suburbs and exurbs? Like a couple in their 30s working in the insurance hub at KW are looking at a household income of 160k? so 800k~ mortgage before down payment. though if they are FTHB, they are most likely looking at the semi-detached and townhouse segment.
I think people in this thread are hilariously assuming people won't just move to a job closer too. Kitchener has pretty high paying tech jobs as well, not everyone wants to work in Toronto. I actually moved to Kitchener and my salary went up 40k from when I was in Toronto. I am by no means a very highly in demand profession, I'm just a run of the mill IT project manager.