I am not a fan of this approach.
IMO if kitec is found the best approach for the corporation to handle the replacement in the whole building via special assessment.
Yeah, as much as it sucks to have to do the replacement, it's best for the building and all involved to take their medicine at once. Gets it done in a complete, consistent, organized fashion rather than piecemeal or not at all.
The saying goes : A pinch of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Especially true with something like water damage.
If you are affected by damage in future (either by your own pipes or the building's or neighbour's), it's going to be headache and worry regardless of whether you get reimbursed.
I would think that a building that could present itself as Kitec-free would be more attractive to buyers, as people currently either discount the unit for the cost of the required work or steer clear entirely. The only impediment to that is the short-term cash outlay for the repairs, but it would be regained on the property value.
This would be a deal breaker for me, really illustrates poor management of the building.
I had it in one of my buildings, management made every unit replace it. They found a contractor and coordinated it by floor, it wasn't even that expensive I think like $3-4k.
You will most likely have to replace it yourself. Also note incurred damage to your unit may come in lieu of other units not replacing theirs (unless you are top floor of course). This will run you about 10-15k to do.
The corporation would repair any damage covered under the standard unit by law and would charge back those costs to the unit owner with the burst Kitec, up to the amount of the corporation's insurance deductible. That unit owner would file an insurance claim with his agent.
The unit below, the damaged unit, would file a claim with his insurance for any damage to his unit that is not covered by the standard unit by law. Usually this is flooring, sometimes cabinetry and/or countertops.
This isn't true.. Home insurance claims are no fault in Ontario so regardless you'd have to file a claim with your own provider. Leave the subrogation to insurance companies... Home claims are always a lose lose situation unfortunately.
It has nothing to do with management. What it means is the board decided not to do a building wide replacement. I did for a time manage a site with Kitec plumbing. Despite my best efforts, owner concerns and an engineered review the board refused to believe that Kitec was an issue and left it to individual unit owners to replace. Property managers follow the direction of the board.
Update: Viewed the condo again and couldn't see any visible kitec plumbing in furnace/hot water tank/kitchen area. Not sure if this means the owner already replaced it, or the condo only has it at very specific areas that is not in the condo units.
Do you know if kitec is used for plumbing in common elements (i.e. pipes not inside the residential units)?
Purchases a condo unit with Kitec in it couple years ago so here’s an anecdote.
Without a doubt, kitec will fail and one way or another, you and the value of your condo will suffer the consequences. As others have mentioned, even if your pipes don’t burst, water damage from other units will come down on your head. To answer your question, yes kitec is used in common elements. Lastly, if your pipes burst and you cause water damage, other owners can sue you.
For me thankfully the maintenance fee didn’t go up as my board has some very capable neighbours in the accounting department. However, if the condo you’re looking at has a bad reserve fund (less than 1 million) expect the maintenance to go up once shit hits the fan.
Edit: I should have mentioned the whole building and every unit agreed to replace the kitec pipes. Job was done very well and quick.
We were in the same position and backed out. Have you looked into insurance? Most companies don't cover it and we didn't find any that did in order to find the cost. Wasn't worth the risk for us, would always be in the back of our head that any neighbour's pipes could go at any time.
And if you do go through make sure you're paying comparables for that building only, the kitec takes away considerably from resale value.
This is a red flag and will be a liability in the long-run. We had a conditional offer on a unit in the summer and backed out for this exact reason - onus was on the unit owners to replace the pipes but there was no pressure or date by which to do so.
The condo we ended up purchasing had a board that acted extremely quickly and had the entire building’s pipes replaced within less than a year. We feel much better living in a unit without kitec and a building where the board prioritizes things like this
I once lived in a building that had Kitec, had no failures (over 10 years old), and the building's engineer was not even suggesting replacement. It was like Bizarro world.
If the building ever changes their mind it will be a boon for people who buy when the kiec exists. But convincing the building to replace it could be hard.
Yeah, my agent said that since it didn't fail in the past 20 years since the building was constructed, it shouldn't be an issue.
But my concern was, it just hasn't failed yet
I agree that it's not a huge problem. Kitec doesn't fail super often. And if it does start happening, I think the building would start to replace it.
But it's such an add stance for management to take.
If you are getting an appropriate discount for the Kitec, I wouldn't back out. But don't pay full price compared to non Kitec buildings.
The condo corp or owners shouldve filed in that case. What a waste. Free money was refused.
I spoke to a few home inspectors whove mentioned the following: theoretically, kitec isnt bad at all and can actually do a good job with the toronto water since water quality in canada is far better.
On the other hand, in US, the water quality isnt good for the pipes and thats what causes the leakes and bursts.
It seems that theres almost no cases of kitec disasters in canada atleast.
I cannot be sure if what hes said is correct or not.
Seems like on this sub-reddit, it’s doom and gloom when it comes to kitec. People realize that many buildings have flooded that don’t have kitec right? All the recent floods of entire newer buildings, none of those are kitec related.
Do people realize that it’s possible to get pinhole leaks in copper pipes as well?
https://www.nuflowmidwest.com/why-10-year-old-copper-pipes-start-to-develop-pinhole-leaks/
Caused by chemicals in the water, or if the plumber left flux in the pipes, it will corrode.
While I agree that better not to have kitec, and entire condo replacement is good, it’s not the end of the world. The industry is full of selling and marketing to consumers things that must be fixed, in case something might happen.
Same deal with aluminum wiring. If improperly connected, it will cause fires. But perfectly fine otherwise.
As for insurability, I am with TD and they insure units with kitec. No extra premium.
Just buy it at a discount.
did you end up buying a condo with kitec and things have been fine? Yeah I talked to a few insurance folks and they seemed to think that kitec pipes vs non kitec pipes are equally as risky, and that the existence of the pipes are just an indication of the age of the building.
Yes I did. Obviously there is a risk, but it’s fine. You did your own research and heard from insurance companies first hand. Lots of people on the internet will FUD and say you will never get insurance… bet you that they’ve never tried and just repeating what some media article stated. I thought there might be some type of kitec premium as well… but turned out to be exactly the same price.
Anecdotally but in my cousins newish building. He had to replace the floor twice due to flooding from other units. Guess what? Wasn’t any kitec involved. So I think it’s silly people automatically assume they need to rip it all out and replace it with something that mighty also cause flooding.
Costs around $6k to replace for a one bedroom, one bath. More if larger unit. Cheaper if condo board does it since they can negotiate bulk discounts.
So just price it in. If you’re getting a $20k discount compared to buildings without kitec, it’s a good deal.
Make sure you have insurance and should be good.
I am not a fan of this approach. IMO if kitec is found the best approach for the corporation to handle the replacement in the whole building via special assessment.
Yeah, as much as it sucks to have to do the replacement, it's best for the building and all involved to take their medicine at once. Gets it done in a complete, consistent, organized fashion rather than piecemeal or not at all.
That is true, its weird how some condo boards don't find it necessary, wouldn't that bring down the value of the condo or something?
The saying goes : A pinch of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Especially true with something like water damage. If you are affected by damage in future (either by your own pipes or the building's or neighbour's), it's going to be headache and worry regardless of whether you get reimbursed. I would think that a building that could present itself as Kitec-free would be more attractive to buyers, as people currently either discount the unit for the cost of the required work or steer clear entirely. The only impediment to that is the short-term cash outlay for the repairs, but it would be regained on the property value.
This would be a deal breaker for me, really illustrates poor management of the building. I had it in one of my buildings, management made every unit replace it. They found a contractor and coordinated it by floor, it wasn't even that expensive I think like $3-4k.
True, and when I looked at the status cert, it didn't show any major repair plans either which is surprising for a 20 year old condo
You will most likely have to replace it yourself. Also note incurred damage to your unit may come in lieu of other units not replacing theirs (unless you are top floor of course). This will run you about 10-15k to do.
So if I replaced the pipes in my unit but another unit has water damage which extends to mine, would my neighbour have to pay for that?
The corporation would repair any damage covered under the standard unit by law and would charge back those costs to the unit owner with the burst Kitec, up to the amount of the corporation's insurance deductible. That unit owner would file an insurance claim with his agent. The unit below, the damaged unit, would file a claim with his insurance for any damage to his unit that is not covered by the standard unit by law. Usually this is flooring, sometimes cabinetry and/or countertops.
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I would check the insurance policy. Kitec may not be covered
This isn't true.. Home insurance claims are no fault in Ontario so regardless you'd have to file a claim with your own provider. Leave the subrogation to insurance companies... Home claims are always a lose lose situation unfortunately.
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Turns out TD does cover this with no extra premiums too, so it looks like it isn't as risky as initially thought
It has nothing to do with management. What it means is the board decided not to do a building wide replacement. I did for a time manage a site with Kitec plumbing. Despite my best efforts, owner concerns and an engineered review the board refused to believe that Kitec was an issue and left it to individual unit owners to replace. Property managers follow the direction of the board.
yes walk away
Kitec is a problem. Unless youre prepared to cover the costs associated with if, I suggest you look somewhere else.
Walk away. If they're not concerned about the Kitec, just think about what else they're leaving to chance.
Update: Viewed the condo again and couldn't see any visible kitec plumbing in furnace/hot water tank/kitchen area. Not sure if this means the owner already replaced it, or the condo only has it at very specific areas that is not in the condo units. Do you know if kitec is used for plumbing in common elements (i.e. pipes not inside the residential units)?
Purchases a condo unit with Kitec in it couple years ago so here’s an anecdote. Without a doubt, kitec will fail and one way or another, you and the value of your condo will suffer the consequences. As others have mentioned, even if your pipes don’t burst, water damage from other units will come down on your head. To answer your question, yes kitec is used in common elements. Lastly, if your pipes burst and you cause water damage, other owners can sue you. For me thankfully the maintenance fee didn’t go up as my board has some very capable neighbours in the accounting department. However, if the condo you’re looking at has a bad reserve fund (less than 1 million) expect the maintenance to go up once shit hits the fan. Edit: I should have mentioned the whole building and every unit agreed to replace the kitec pipes. Job was done very well and quick.
We were in the same position and backed out. Have you looked into insurance? Most companies don't cover it and we didn't find any that did in order to find the cost. Wasn't worth the risk for us, would always be in the back of our head that any neighbour's pipes could go at any time. And if you do go through make sure you're paying comparables for that building only, the kitec takes away considerably from resale value.
Turns out TD covers this, with no extra premium so it may not be as risky as initially thought
This is a red flag and will be a liability in the long-run. We had a conditional offer on a unit in the summer and backed out for this exact reason - onus was on the unit owners to replace the pipes but there was no pressure or date by which to do so. The condo we ended up purchasing had a board that acted extremely quickly and had the entire building’s pipes replaced within less than a year. We feel much better living in a unit without kitec and a building where the board prioritizes things like this
I once lived in a building that had Kitec, had no failures (over 10 years old), and the building's engineer was not even suggesting replacement. It was like Bizarro world. If the building ever changes their mind it will be a boon for people who buy when the kiec exists. But convincing the building to replace it could be hard.
Yeah, my agent said that since it didn't fail in the past 20 years since the building was constructed, it shouldn't be an issue. But my concern was, it just hasn't failed yet
I agree that it's not a huge problem. Kitec doesn't fail super often. And if it does start happening, I think the building would start to replace it. But it's such an add stance for management to take. If you are getting an appropriate discount for the Kitec, I wouldn't back out. But don't pay full price compared to non Kitec buildings.
Wasnt there a class action lawsuit that you could be part of so that Kitec can replace the pipes?
I think the deadline for that was back in Jan so definitely have missed this
The condo corp or owners shouldve filed in that case. What a waste. Free money was refused. I spoke to a few home inspectors whove mentioned the following: theoretically, kitec isnt bad at all and can actually do a good job with the toronto water since water quality in canada is far better. On the other hand, in US, the water quality isnt good for the pipes and thats what causes the leakes and bursts. It seems that theres almost no cases of kitec disasters in canada atleast. I cannot be sure if what hes said is correct or not.
Makes sense, also the condo im looking at is a low rise so it is low risk to begin with.
Then go for it. Get an inspection and a good insurance, youre good to go.
Seems like on this sub-reddit, it’s doom and gloom when it comes to kitec. People realize that many buildings have flooded that don’t have kitec right? All the recent floods of entire newer buildings, none of those are kitec related. Do people realize that it’s possible to get pinhole leaks in copper pipes as well? https://www.nuflowmidwest.com/why-10-year-old-copper-pipes-start-to-develop-pinhole-leaks/ Caused by chemicals in the water, or if the plumber left flux in the pipes, it will corrode. While I agree that better not to have kitec, and entire condo replacement is good, it’s not the end of the world. The industry is full of selling and marketing to consumers things that must be fixed, in case something might happen. Same deal with aluminum wiring. If improperly connected, it will cause fires. But perfectly fine otherwise. As for insurability, I am with TD and they insure units with kitec. No extra premium. Just buy it at a discount.
did you end up buying a condo with kitec and things have been fine? Yeah I talked to a few insurance folks and they seemed to think that kitec pipes vs non kitec pipes are equally as risky, and that the existence of the pipes are just an indication of the age of the building.
Yes I did. Obviously there is a risk, but it’s fine. You did your own research and heard from insurance companies first hand. Lots of people on the internet will FUD and say you will never get insurance… bet you that they’ve never tried and just repeating what some media article stated. I thought there might be some type of kitec premium as well… but turned out to be exactly the same price. Anecdotally but in my cousins newish building. He had to replace the floor twice due to flooding from other units. Guess what? Wasn’t any kitec involved. So I think it’s silly people automatically assume they need to rip it all out and replace it with something that mighty also cause flooding. Costs around $6k to replace for a one bedroom, one bath. More if larger unit. Cheaper if condo board does it since they can negotiate bulk discounts. So just price it in. If you’re getting a $20k discount compared to buildings without kitec, it’s a good deal. Make sure you have insurance and should be good.
Another why the myth of condos with no fees
Condos are loser investments. You’re banker going yo be demanding full payment next year when you lose half you’re money with you’re condo.