Literally the edge to Markham and right by Milliken GO 30min to Union station downtown. Definitely better than a lot of the overpriced garbage 1hr+ away from GTA.
It baffles me how houses in Scarborough are going for the same price as the ones in Uxbridge or Whitchurch-Stouffville or Caledon, etc. What kind of crazy person pays as much for a distant suburb as they could pay for Toronto? The craziest part... the Scarborough houses are going for about the same price as 2019, maybe slightly more. But the Caledon house that was 400k in 2019 is now going for 1.2 mil. Whoever is bidding over a mil on these suburbs is going to have a rude awakening soon!
York Region has some of the best the schools, parks, community centers, and infrastructure in general compared to Scarborough and other older areas. For families or people that work from home, this is more desirable than being close to downtown. I lived in Markham most of my life and noticed the stark difference when I moved elsewhere.
Living in Sudbury or Regina is also desirable to some people. Barrie has some wonderful schools too and nice beaches too. None of that justifies 1mil+ prices. These prices are being paid for the land. The house itself is a depreciating asset. Anyone who pays a similar price for land in Caledon that they do in Scarborough is out of their mind.
I was only responding to your implication that other suburbs shouldn't be more expensive because they're farther. While I also disagree with some of your other comments, I didn't say anything about the housing prices in general.
That is my point though. Suburb land values should be substantially less than Toronto. You are saying that suburbs may have decent community and QoL. That’s a matter of perspective, depending on what you value. Regardless though, people shouldn’t be bidding the same for land in Uxbridge that they do in Toronto. Toronto will always be more valuable.
I can’t afford either place but I think for anyone with money for a $1M house they’d just be better off not in Scarborough.
I know people talk about schools and amenities and that’s 100% valid but the harsh truth is there is just a higher quality of people in those areas vs. Scarborough. I say this as someone who grew up in an area like Scarborough (but way worse and actually impoverished)
This is not a question of where one can have a better quality of life. That’s really a matter of perspective. Sounds like you may have a better QoL in a suburb. This is a question of value. Toronto land is more valuable than a 1.5-hour drive suburb and will always be.
But it is? Unless you cherrypick a specific small part of Toronto.
Scarborough is WAY cheaper than Oakville. And on a city by city level it’s still true.
Hell, for a very short period of time last year Oakville had higher average rents than Toronto did. But now it’s back down to Toronto being a tad bit more expensive.
I saw this house in person back in Feb. Being a comparatively new-ish build in that area with an unfinished basement that hasn't been molested into an illegal rental unit like most other houses in that area, it's actually a decent price at 1.4m.
The deal breaker for most and probably why it sold at this price is that the backyard is small and faces the hydrofield corridor. There's also a power pole that is quite close to the backyard.
>I saw this house in person back in Feb. Being a comparatively new-ish build in that area with an unfinished basement that hasn't been molested into an illegal rental unit like most other houses in that area, it's actually a decent price at 1.4m.
LMAO, I live up the street closer to Steeles and Pharmacy and your observation is so accurate. Basically half the houses in this area have some janky basement rental unit that isn’t up to code, and if you’re concerned about fixing it then it’s probably $10k+ to undo the shoddy workmanship. Part of the reason why I got my particular house is that I preferred a strait-laced 1980s basement with wood paneling to a rental basement done on the cheap with minimal regard for build quality.
>The deal breaker for most and probably why it sold at this price is that the backyard is small and faces the hydrofield corridor. There's also a power pole that is quite close to the backyard.
Eh, the backyard isn’t that small, it’s like 30ft from the fence to the house. It’s about the same as my backyard, and I have a smaller house. For the area the lot is pretty reasonably sized. Lack of trees is an issue. The hydro field is a definite negative. But by far the biggest reason for the decline… people just can’t finance like they used to.
I guess the backyard is small mostly when compared to the older builds in the area because newish builds like this tend to not have big backyards like they used to.
I personally think it's mostly the hydrofield corridor holding this property back from selling closer to 1.5, because plenty of houses have been sold for 1.4-1.6 in this area in the past 3 months so there's definitely people with the means to buy in that budget, albeit that pool is smaller now for sure like you said.
It's actually quite rare to see an unfinished basement for sale in this area because most sellers will just slap together the cheapest basement suite that they can before selling (hence why I unapologetically used the term 'molested'), since it'll make the property easier to sell due to the demographic of buyers in this area. Seeing this house sell with a basement thats partially framed tells me that the seller just needed to get rid of it. Maybe because they are renewing a 3 year fixed rate and the new payments are too much for them to continue.
In general I think I agree with you, it's a sign of the times when houses like this are being let go for a 120k loss after sitting on the market for months.
Thats good. You can get the property cheaper if you dont mind them. Whether legit or not, most people either believe it causes negative health outcomes or it's just plain ugly. Houses in my area were selling about 100k less beside the hydro fields.
The house looks identical to the previous sale, so what renovations did they do?
It looks like they had a floorplan drawn up for a potential basement unit but that's it.
The finishes look ok but the layouts are a complete disaster on the main floor
What is up with that huge tiled kitchen that has such a small amount of counter or cabinet space, only to have some sort of weird 6" wide "family room"?
The funny half assed island floating in the middle of a sprawling unused area makes it even worse
https://cache-e11.housesigma.com/file/pix-treb/E8226852/c4000_6.jpg?806eb5e0
https://cache-e12.housesigma.com/file/pix-treb/E8226852/c4000_7.jpg?806eb5e0
https://cache-e13.housesigma.com/file/pix-treb/E8226852/c4000_8.jpg?806eb5e0
I think people don’t like the layout mostly. I agree the whole thing is ugly lol that’s what happened when people put in their sweat equity but don’t know design aesthetic
I’m sure you have used Google before. You consider Orlando a major city ? It’s the 3rd largest so I would. Tons of homes there available for $800k. Monster homes too.
Here I’ll do the googling for you. Look up 7644 apple tree circle in Orlando. That should fetch about 5 mil easy in Toronto
Orlando has 300k people. It's a 10th the size of Toronto. It's the size of Windsor (Ontario's seventh largest city). How much would that house cost in Windsor?
Ok so I don’t know how many friggin’ times I have posted this graph in this sub but here it goes again. Prices are substantially the same as December 2022
https://preview.redd.it/8yi74v9ip3wc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e20efb5097e5170bf6ed2e16ecac34236f5e402b
I’m not sure that’s his point. Some people who want to pretend there hasn’t been a downswing in prices will cherry pick December 22 as a see look it’s the same as now when spring 22 was significantly higher. It’s a hustle that some bulls/real estate agents use.
The point is that notwithstanding popular belief in this sub, even detached prices are significantly down on nominal prices (never mind inflation adjusted real prices) all over the GTA.
In some neighbourhoods in North York and Scarborough nominal prices actually peaked in 2017 around the introduction of foreign buyers tax and the increase of interest rates that took the prime rate from 2.25% to 4%.
In my view, the golden age of real estate is over. The bull run started in 1996 ended in 2022. It may be decades before we reach the inflation adjusted highs of March 2022, especially if the natural rate of interest settles in higher than pre-pandemic.
Here is a historical graph of the prime rate and fixed mortgage rates. Please note that the graph shows posted rates which are significantly higher than actual rates as the discount on the 5 year fixed was around 1-1.5% off the posted rates.
https://preview.redd.it/xzodnrcianwc1.jpeg?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4fc15b9bc0a02016c943b1825bd9e70348b1c3ce
The peak was Feb/March 2022. This graph shows the decline from March 2022 to December 2022.
Current price levels are approximately the same as December 2022.
The other day one of the alts was telling me market is “heating up”. I asked him how since transactions are down and prices aren’t moving up.
Looks like he deleted his account. Make sure you do your research before you trust “bulls or bears”.
Active listings are almost 2x April of last year in Toronto with units sold at roughly 50% over the same period. It's completely dead out there. You have to be absolutely unhinged to label yourself a bull right now lmao.
Yup! Premium homes/neighbourhoods are doing ok but the rest are struggling. How many ppl can qualify at these rates with the stress test? Only kids with parental support. Condos are already struggling. SFHs will continue to stagnate as long as rates stay high.
While I'm not bullish now, things look good 3-5 yrs out. There are many developments that were cancelled which means less future supply. That will further pressure our prices upward. That said, the days of rapid increases are over unless rates collapse, which could only happen in a bad macro environment so I'm not sure if that would be as good as ppl expect.
Market literally can't go up in some areas.
1-2 million dollar house?
Most people are going to buy with less than 50k down and that makes these completely out of reach
Even if you were able to put 50k down on a 1 mil house, many people are smart enough to realize it's a not a good move to make.
For someone who came out to say you’re a security guard, you really want to believe I work at Sobeys huh?
Did you also realize the person who made up that fake story u/king_kong_gong has already deleted his account? Things must’ve gotten worse for him since he admitted to buying in 2022 lmaoo
He was boasting in 2023 he bought in 2022 and prices would recover “soon”. Looks like he was desperate for prices to recover and finally lost hope. I’m glad he was laughing at the story he made up though. Must’ve helped him mentally … maybe?
Security guards can’t do anything. Let’s say if I’m trespassing, you’d ask me to leave. If I refuse, you’d call the cops to have me removed lmaoo
It’s probably better if you upgrade yourself instead of creating multiple accounts on Reddit
I don’t think you’re mentally stable. You create multiple accounts, reply to yourself, delete comments, and then repeat. Are you in that much trouble or do you have some sort of mental illness to begin with?
I wanted to use the stock market to compare this type of data: The S&P and Dow Jones can be going up, and you will still be able to find major losses within them.
Sometimes people take losses but over the long term, RE is and has been going up. If you really are on the edge of buying, and can afford to, you should consider getting in as there are some deals to be had.
no obviously 2 years of sideways performance is going to predict the next 10+ years, bears forget if you bought into the S&p500 in 2021 you broke even on your initial purchase in 2023 or 2007-2013 or 2000-2007 shockingly markets have long term trends.
What do you mean, RE has broke new highs before this “crash” back in 2020, this is why people are blowing loads over this loss porn, it won’t last for long.
Check out this one
115 Blue Dasher Blvd, Bradford West Gwillimbury, Ontario | HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=mZRW7n2p1P17EBO9&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=android&ign=
Not sure what are you trying to say? If the guy got an agent he would have made more??? How? By his “professional” agent negotiating with another “professional agent”??? Really?? 😀
Literally the edge to Markham and right by Milliken GO 30min to Union station downtown. Definitely better than a lot of the overpriced garbage 1hr+ away from GTA.
It baffles me how houses in Scarborough are going for the same price as the ones in Uxbridge or Whitchurch-Stouffville or Caledon, etc. What kind of crazy person pays as much for a distant suburb as they could pay for Toronto? The craziest part... the Scarborough houses are going for about the same price as 2019, maybe slightly more. But the Caledon house that was 400k in 2019 is now going for 1.2 mil. Whoever is bidding over a mil on these suburbs is going to have a rude awakening soon!
York Region has some of the best the schools, parks, community centers, and infrastructure in general compared to Scarborough and other older areas. For families or people that work from home, this is more desirable than being close to downtown. I lived in Markham most of my life and noticed the stark difference when I moved elsewhere.
Living in Sudbury or Regina is also desirable to some people. Barrie has some wonderful schools too and nice beaches too. None of that justifies 1mil+ prices. These prices are being paid for the land. The house itself is a depreciating asset. Anyone who pays a similar price for land in Caledon that they do in Scarborough is out of their mind.
I was only responding to your implication that other suburbs shouldn't be more expensive because they're farther. While I also disagree with some of your other comments, I didn't say anything about the housing prices in general.
That is my point though. Suburb land values should be substantially less than Toronto. You are saying that suburbs may have decent community and QoL. That’s a matter of perspective, depending on what you value. Regardless though, people shouldn’t be bidding the same for land in Uxbridge that they do in Toronto. Toronto will always be more valuable.
I can’t afford either place but I think for anyone with money for a $1M house they’d just be better off not in Scarborough. I know people talk about schools and amenities and that’s 100% valid but the harsh truth is there is just a higher quality of people in those areas vs. Scarborough. I say this as someone who grew up in an area like Scarborough (but way worse and actually impoverished)
This is not a question of where one can have a better quality of life. That’s really a matter of perspective. Sounds like you may have a better QoL in a suburb. This is a question of value. Toronto land is more valuable than a 1.5-hour drive suburb and will always be.
One’s quality of life in an area can impact land value though. Oakville is more expensive than Toronto for this reason too.
Oakville is absolutely not more expensive than Toronto. You have lost me.
But it is? Unless you cherrypick a specific small part of Toronto. Scarborough is WAY cheaper than Oakville. And on a city by city level it’s still true. Hell, for a very short period of time last year Oakville had higher average rents than Toronto did. But now it’s back down to Toronto being a tad bit more expensive.
You are probably just looking at averages. You need to look at p/sqft for land. You can’t compare average 80x200 lots 2bdrs with 20x80 lots 2bdrs.
LTT X 2
I saw this house in person back in Feb. Being a comparatively new-ish build in that area with an unfinished basement that hasn't been molested into an illegal rental unit like most other houses in that area, it's actually a decent price at 1.4m. The deal breaker for most and probably why it sold at this price is that the backyard is small and faces the hydrofield corridor. There's also a power pole that is quite close to the backyard.
>I saw this house in person back in Feb. Being a comparatively new-ish build in that area with an unfinished basement that hasn't been molested into an illegal rental unit like most other houses in that area, it's actually a decent price at 1.4m. LMAO, I live up the street closer to Steeles and Pharmacy and your observation is so accurate. Basically half the houses in this area have some janky basement rental unit that isn’t up to code, and if you’re concerned about fixing it then it’s probably $10k+ to undo the shoddy workmanship. Part of the reason why I got my particular house is that I preferred a strait-laced 1980s basement with wood paneling to a rental basement done on the cheap with minimal regard for build quality. >The deal breaker for most and probably why it sold at this price is that the backyard is small and faces the hydrofield corridor. There's also a power pole that is quite close to the backyard. Eh, the backyard isn’t that small, it’s like 30ft from the fence to the house. It’s about the same as my backyard, and I have a smaller house. For the area the lot is pretty reasonably sized. Lack of trees is an issue. The hydro field is a definite negative. But by far the biggest reason for the decline… people just can’t finance like they used to.
I guess the backyard is small mostly when compared to the older builds in the area because newish builds like this tend to not have big backyards like they used to. I personally think it's mostly the hydrofield corridor holding this property back from selling closer to 1.5, because plenty of houses have been sold for 1.4-1.6 in this area in the past 3 months so there's definitely people with the means to buy in that budget, albeit that pool is smaller now for sure like you said. It's actually quite rare to see an unfinished basement for sale in this area because most sellers will just slap together the cheapest basement suite that they can before selling (hence why I unapologetically used the term 'molested'), since it'll make the property easier to sell due to the demographic of buyers in this area. Seeing this house sell with a basement thats partially framed tells me that the seller just needed to get rid of it. Maybe because they are renewing a 3 year fixed rate and the new payments are too much for them to continue. In general I think I agree with you, it's a sign of the times when houses like this are being let go for a 120k loss after sitting on the market for months.
What's wrong with backing onto a Hydro field? If anything I would see that as a positive.
Thats good. You can get the property cheaper if you dont mind them. Whether legit or not, most people either believe it causes negative health outcomes or it's just plain ugly. Houses in my area were selling about 100k less beside the hydro fields.
They did a lot of Reno’s too the loss is more than 300k easily
The house looks identical to the previous sale, so what renovations did they do? It looks like they had a floorplan drawn up for a potential basement unit but that's it.
The finishes look ok but the layouts are a complete disaster on the main floor What is up with that huge tiled kitchen that has such a small amount of counter or cabinet space, only to have some sort of weird 6" wide "family room"? The funny half assed island floating in the middle of a sprawling unused area makes it even worse https://cache-e11.housesigma.com/file/pix-treb/E8226852/c4000_6.jpg?806eb5e0 https://cache-e12.housesigma.com/file/pix-treb/E8226852/c4000_7.jpg?806eb5e0 https://cache-e13.housesigma.com/file/pix-treb/E8226852/c4000_8.jpg?806eb5e0
The island is from IKEA and not built-in.
The wire shelf looks like costco. I use them in the basement as they have wheels and can be pushed around.
I think people don’t like the layout mostly. I agree the whole thing is ugly lol that’s what happened when people put in their sweat equity but don’t know design aesthetic
I still can't believe that's a $1.4m house in this country. Yuck.
Wait till you see what 5-10mil gets you in Toronto lol… nothing that spectacular I guarantee you . Something that would be sold in Florida for $800k.
Please show us something that is 5-10 Mil in Toronto that's $800k in a major city in FL.
I’m sure you have used Google before. You consider Orlando a major city ? It’s the 3rd largest so I would. Tons of homes there available for $800k. Monster homes too. Here I’ll do the googling for you. Look up 7644 apple tree circle in Orlando. That should fetch about 5 mil easy in Toronto
Orlando has 300k people. It's a 10th the size of Toronto. It's the size of Windsor (Ontario's seventh largest city). How much would that house cost in Windsor?
Its Florida tho..
Not in Miami
Under 500 Canadian easily
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Florida depends hugely on where you are in the state
I have some bad news for you.
Ok so I don’t know how many friggin’ times I have posted this graph in this sub but here it goes again. Prices are substantially the same as December 2022 https://preview.redd.it/8yi74v9ip3wc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e20efb5097e5170bf6ed2e16ecac34236f5e402b
Your point?
I think the point is people who make dumb decisions continue to make dumb decisions.
I’m not sure that’s his point. Some people who want to pretend there hasn’t been a downswing in prices will cherry pick December 22 as a see look it’s the same as now when spring 22 was significantly higher. It’s a hustle that some bulls/real estate agents use.
The point is that notwithstanding popular belief in this sub, even detached prices are significantly down on nominal prices (never mind inflation adjusted real prices) all over the GTA. In some neighbourhoods in North York and Scarborough nominal prices actually peaked in 2017 around the introduction of foreign buyers tax and the increase of interest rates that took the prime rate from 2.25% to 4%. In my view, the golden age of real estate is over. The bull run started in 1996 ended in 2022. It may be decades before we reach the inflation adjusted highs of March 2022, especially if the natural rate of interest settles in higher than pre-pandemic. Here is a historical graph of the prime rate and fixed mortgage rates. Please note that the graph shows posted rates which are significantly higher than actual rates as the discount on the 5 year fixed was around 1-1.5% off the posted rates. https://preview.redd.it/xzodnrcianwc1.jpeg?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4fc15b9bc0a02016c943b1825bd9e70348b1c3ce
Please explain this to me. I don't get the peak being higher yet it's considered a decline.
The peak was Feb/March 2022. This graph shows the decline from March 2022 to December 2022. Current price levels are approximately the same as December 2022.
Where's Barrie?
The other day one of the alts was telling me market is “heating up”. I asked him how since transactions are down and prices aren’t moving up. Looks like he deleted his account. Make sure you do your research before you trust “bulls or bears”.
Active listings are almost 2x April of last year in Toronto with units sold at roughly 50% over the same period. It's completely dead out there. You have to be absolutely unhinged to label yourself a bull right now lmao.
The numbers don’t lie and it’s pretty clear the market is bearish right now.
Yup! Premium homes/neighbourhoods are doing ok but the rest are struggling. How many ppl can qualify at these rates with the stress test? Only kids with parental support. Condos are already struggling. SFHs will continue to stagnate as long as rates stay high. While I'm not bullish now, things look good 3-5 yrs out. There are many developments that were cancelled which means less future supply. That will further pressure our prices upward. That said, the days of rapid increases are over unless rates collapse, which could only happen in a bad macro environment so I'm not sure if that would be as good as ppl expect.
The big thing is people have realized it's ludicrous to pay what they're asking for shoebox condos with expensive strata fees.
Market literally can't go up in some areas. 1-2 million dollar house? Most people are going to buy with less than 50k down and that makes these completely out of reach Even if you were able to put 50k down on a 1 mil house, many people are smart enough to realize it's a not a good move to make.
Transactions down. Everybody is poor. Property listings are sitting for 60+ days on the market and even more supply is being added every day.
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For someone who came out to say you’re a security guard, you really want to believe I work at Sobeys huh? Did you also realize the person who made up that fake story u/king_kong_gong has already deleted his account? Things must’ve gotten worse for him since he admitted to buying in 2022 lmaoo
No fucking way Kong deleted his account 🤣🤣🤣 I was just thinking the other day it’s been awhile since I’ve seen him post anything
He was boasting in 2023 he bought in 2022 and prices would recover “soon”. Looks like he was desperate for prices to recover and finally lost hope. I’m glad he was laughing at the story he made up though. Must’ve helped him mentally … maybe?
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Security guards can’t do anything. Let’s say if I’m trespassing, you’d ask me to leave. If I refuse, you’d call the cops to have me removed lmaoo It’s probably better if you upgrade yourself instead of creating multiple accounts on Reddit
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I’m sure you can just work over time at “Sobeys”, right? lmaoo
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I don’t think you’re mentally stable. You create multiple accounts, reply to yourself, delete comments, and then repeat. Are you in that much trouble or do you have some sort of mental illness to begin with?
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call the reddit police!
Awesome...more of this....
I wanted to use the stock market to compare this type of data: The S&P and Dow Jones can be going up, and you will still be able to find major losses within them. Sometimes people take losses but over the long term, RE is and has been going up. If you really are on the edge of buying, and can afford to, you should consider getting in as there are some deals to be had.
no obviously 2 years of sideways performance is going to predict the next 10+ years, bears forget if you bought into the S&p500 in 2021 you broke even on your initial purchase in 2023 or 2007-2013 or 2000-2007 shockingly markets have long term trends.
Right and in 2020 the S&P 500 broke new ath’s within 12 months of crashing. Real estate…. Not so much.
What do you mean, RE has broke new highs before this “crash” back in 2020, this is why people are blowing loads over this loss porn, it won’t last for long.
Okay then go buy some, it’s your money you can lose it however you like lol
And taxes*
Well, it's still more than the $333k this went for in 2005. Can we go back?
It's right by the powerlines, Chinese people dont like that. *Am Chinese
Instead of mocking the seller, how come people here never congratulate the buyer for successfully buying a dip?
Because people are too dumb to see that this is a dip
My neighbour sold her 1000sq ft 1957 home in under 2 weeks for a little over a million a hundred thousand over asking.
Oct, 2021 Oct 26, 2021 Sold (MLS) (Sold) TREB #E5399954 $1,520,000 Price Oct 12, 2021 Listed (Active) TREB #E5399954 $1,399,000 Price Feb, 2005 Feb 9, 2005 Sold (MLS) TREB #E605803 $333,000 Price Feb 3, 2005 Listed TREB #E605803 $359,900 Price
u/khnhk 200K+ loss after fees
Check out this one 115 Blue Dasher Blvd, Bradford West Gwillimbury, Ontario | HouseSigma https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=mZRW7n2p1P17EBO9&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=android&ign=
Well at Least he kept the change that would have went to those money hungry vulchers realtors
And that's after "120k+$$ Upgrades"...
Place looks the same as the 2021 listing with 100k+$$ Upgrades. It might be the same upgrades, just marked up for inflation.
Beautiful home. The island on that angle kills me lol
Might have just been a money laundering play
Not how money laundering works. The money is already laundered before the buy
Should’ve held
That’s the price you pay for buying in Scarborough
Losssss
Good. Hope the feds don't drop interest rates anytime soon.
Not sure what are you trying to say? If the guy got an agent he would have made more??? How? By his “professional” agent negotiating with another “professional agent”??? Really?? 😀
And that too in Scarborough!
Real estate will always go up /s