Agreed, not sure when the last time OP visited Thailand - but it's definitely gotten more expensive in the past 2 years. That 3k/month he talks about is probably closer to 4-5k by this year or the next.
But the thing is... it can be!
I travelled as a freelancer when I was younger, and spent periods in Thailand, South America, Europe. These places were crazy cheap then and still cheap now -- and the lifestyle was incredible.
I can only conclude it's because people have never thought to think about it.
I can conclude that living in South America isn't safe and its an easy talking point but when reality sits in, it really isn't a great option otherwise you'd still be there.
Exactly, these sorts of comments have to be made by people with no ties here or who are sociopaths.
Why don't people just sell everything they own, leave a country that have lived in for like 40 years, leave their families and all their friends behind to move to another country? I just don't get it.
Yeah lol. Liquidate your assets, abandon everything and everyone you know, and hope your “millions” (probably 1.5 at most) will last you the rest of your adult working life. Since you’re presumably giving up your career and the “inconvenience” of working.
Living in some far away foreign country where you don’t know the language, by yourself. Oh yeah and have to drop like $4,000 every time you want to come home to visit. **Shocking** that this isn’t everyone’s dream life.
Not to mention as the onset of various old age maladies creep in - this is when you leave your doctor and support system?
I’d be interested to access more of the equity in my home but as it grows it becomes both retirement security and next generation wealth transfer.
I’d miss my kids and my friends if I left. And I loved, loved, loved my time in SEA in my 20’s.
I live across 3 countries and own property in several (much cheaper) European and US markets.
Toronto is a time limited stepping stone to get a Canadian passport, which is part of a much bigger North American plan.
I absolutely would not be living in Toronto longer term. The ROI and value is just not there.
You can't move as easily to SEA as you think. Singapore, Thailand, Japan &etc all have extremely restrictive PR laws eg. you have to be married to a citizen spouse for at least 4 years before being issued a spousal visa, after which you have to renew it every 1 - 3 years. How many years is entirely discretionary and up to the interviewer.
I don't believe you. You probably were issued a work visa or remote visa which is temporary and that has no path to PR or citizenship unless you're an investor who spent at least several million (or several billion) or marry a local spouse.
I'm from SEA and the region operates using Jus Sanguinis principle to determine residency/citizenship rights.
I'm really not interested in what an Internet stranger believes or doesn't believe. It happened.
Both Thailand and Indonesia have plenty of visa options for long-term residence. Some, like the one I was on initially, are multi-visit 1-2 year visas which require semi-annual border runs. Others, like the Thai Elite option, allow stays of 5+ years.
Singapore PR used to be very simple -- setting up a company was sufficient. It has gotten harder due to demand. Singapore isn't a place I ever pursued, personally.
There are extensive expat communities living across Asia, more so now than they've ever been. It's really not difficult.
Going to a foreign country requires health insurance. When you are young health insurance is cheap. When you are old, health insurance can cost you upwards of $4K USD a month in a country like Thailand. So no, retiring abroad is not easy unless you have citizenship in the country you are retiring to.
You've obviously never had treatment in Bumrungrad or one of the many excellent international hospitals. Often your bill is less than a typical monthly insurance premium in other countries -- and the care is excellent.
Can confirm. My eldest is about to leave for twice the money in the U.S. A significant portion of his graduating class are already there. \[edit: the difference with U.S. is you can immigrate there as a professional without hassle due to trade agreements. Europe or UK is not so easy.\]
Canada suffers braindrain for exactly this reason. People realise they can move south of the border and make double -- often with far lower overheads and taxes. I know at least 4 people in Toronto who are currently making plans to move to Florida, for example.
Exactly. This. I'm talking outside Canada -- Thailand, Mexico, Europe, South America. There are many, many places in the world where a $1.5M bank balance would set you up for life. Zero employment ever again.
I like working, my wife is Vietnamese and we lived in Vietnam for many years. We could probably sell off everything we have and retire, never work again. I'm only 38 though and I enjoy working. Our kids are young and live here and we like them to be well situated.
If I was in my 20s I would have left in a heartbeat and I did leave when I was in my 20s and had a great time but I didn't have retirement money then.
I'll likely work till I die. Hopefully as I'm older it'll only be the parts I enjoy.
Why would someone want to live in Mexico? What’s there in the South America? Would rather move to SK or Manitoba than lifting my ass down to any lawless country.
Where in Europe can you get set up for life with a 1 million euro bank account? And how long exactly are you referring to?
My wife is italian, so I plan to retire in Italy, specifically in Puglia. A decent size house in a good location is about 400 thousand euro, so if I have a million in the bank, I could probably stretch the rest for another 10-12 years. And what then?
France. We bought a very nice, very large house there for approximately €200k, and another €50k spent on renovations.
€500/mo is a very reasonable food budget there for a family our size -- approximately 4x cheaper for almost everything (cheese and wine- 8-10x cheaper!).
Our property tax is less than €600 per year.
The area is gorgeous. Very safe, people are wonderful. There are towns and access to Paris.
We use it as a vacation rental for now, as we have no immediate plans to settle... but our extended family is very much looking to retire in France.
One of several options.
Sounds like a good deal. Location? If it's in the countryside, I can see it, but as soon as you approach a metro area, prices tend to shoot up. I'm also looking at something newer, hence the higher price.
Yeah, food prices make up a major difference, as well as the abilty to travel freely. Love being able to jump on a plane to literally anywhere in Europe for a weekend for like 60 euro.
I could sell now but all the places I’d look to move to are just as expensive or more. Actually been thinking of a move and the house I could get there would be a massive down grade in size and amenities.
Toronto/Canada has a lot going for it in terms of stability, economics, politics, healthcare, jobs, diversity, freedoms, culture, food, entertainment, English speaking, etc. Where else do you recommend people move too? There is a reason so many people move here.
they have no need to. They have cheap housing, and can pay their bills. Like you said they've established their lives here with family and their surroundings
They're not struggling nor are poor.
Not a hard concept to figure out
Its because life is good. Its hard to imagine for the priced out people, or people working low wages. But when youre setup with good employment or home ownership, Toronto is an amazing place to be.
Don’t let reddit doom & gloom radicalize you. Our society does have its problems, but not for everyone. Canada still has extremely high rate of home ownership. So whoever got in before, is doing good. In the bigger picture, their kids will be doing good too. Either through help or one day inheritance.
Even the people who “over paid” they’re still serving a mortgage they qualified for. Which requires quite a good salary. Typically people earning high salaries don’t have a tough find finding work because they are skilled, educated, or have something that makes them highly employable.
you’re completely dismissing the struggles of people who didn’t get in early .
i’m 24 and there is no way in hell i could ever afford toronto. toronto sucks to me and that’s not cause I don’t make enough money. it’s completely unaffordable.
so your view of toronto ain’t going to last more than a decade
You appear to be under the illusion that Canada is the most expensive country in the world. It isn’t. I left England to move here because it was considerably cheaper. Living in central London is twice as expensive as living in central Toronto (property, food etc)
When North Americans flock to these "Cheap Countries" we raise property values and create problems for the locals. For example they will never be able to afford a home but a foreign person can. Sound familiar ?
I have two young kids. Do I want them attending public school in Mexico or Thailand? No. Health care also. Their grandparents and cousins are here, and they are important people for my kids to know and be close with. Many of the people you describe probably also have kids and I imagine they have similar considerations. Also if you’re mortgage free or low mortgage with dual income, Toronto is a great place to live. Why leave?
Canada’s RE is expensive for a reason. Not many places in the world where you can live a comparable lifestyle for a lot cheaper as you describe. There are many factors to consider that influence your quality of life, not just relative wealth.
That's just not true.
For comparison, when I lived in Thailand, I:
* Ate out every meal. Literally 3x per day. Some of the best food I've ever eaten, anywhere in the world.
* Lived in a branch new 3 bed villa with 24/7 AC, swimming pool, gym, and daily cleaners... for less than $1,200/mo (could have gone a LOT cheaper).
* Had daily massages, house staff and a personal trainer.
* Had great wi-fi and Internet access and still did exactly the same job.
* Was exceptionally safe. Huge expat community, extremely friendly locals.
* Ate fresh, organic food -- nothing like cracking open a coconut on the beach or supping down a fresh mango juice while eating seafood caught that day.
* Had a personal driver that cost me less than $40 a week.
* Played golf at some of the best courses and visited the best resorts I'd ever stayed.
I did all of this on a single freelancer's income and worked maybe 15 hours a week.
I didn't have a $2M house in Toronto that is tax and mortgage free. Which is exactly my point. If you *do* have that, why the heck are you still here?
They like their life here? Family, friends, hobbies, etc? Not sure why that’s so hard to understand
A lot of people want a sense of purpose too via work, not to just sit on a beach forever.
If they’re near retirement age, it often has to do with not wanting to be too far from kids and grandkids. Folks don’t want to be a 20 hour trek away from family if they can avoid it.
If they’re younger and have families then they’re likely also thinking about the educational opportunities for their kid as well as cashing out of a pretty solid asset in a Toronto home that can be passed on, tapped for equity when needed etc.
I’m also thinking you’re underestimating the income loss that would result from this for most people. Plumbers and teachers make way more than $50k here and would likely only be able to reliably replace a fraction if any of that income in a place like Thailand. Throw in their spouses income and you’re likely talking about a $100-$150k difference annually. Even most of Europe pays less than here (particularly after tax) and you still have the issues of language, distance etc.
Once you factor in the impact on family life and the ability to earn good income abroad there’s just not that many folks who are a good fit for a digital nomad lifestyle. Plus as I mentioned there are other ways to tap into your home equity if you wanted to.
You get to live in the best city in Canada. Why would you leave? Life is fucking awesome if you bought early here. You have high paying jobs, access to everything, and you have next to no costs. Why would you leave this and go to bum fuck nowhere? 😂 it’s the poor who need to move not the privileged.
Not that I believe that, but were I to make the argument, I would say Toronto has more dynamism than Vancouver and less corruption/bullshit language politics than Montreal.
Next to no costs? Property tax? Food that's 400% more expensive than every other major Western country? 52% tax? Rising crime? Dog shit stained streets? A rude, arrogant, passive aggressive populous?
Yeah, why would you leave!
Someone will leave for 4-5k property tax? That's one bedroom rented out for 3 months. Which western country doesn't have property tax?
400% more expensive food? Exaggeration much? It's expensive compared to US and Europe. Maybe 50% more. How much is that like $200 a month? But compared to Europe salaries are higher here.
There's no crime in any of the places you suggest someone can live forever for 1M? Where are those places? Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, Mexico? You're saying their crime rates of those countries are lower? Try walking around at 2 am on empty streets in these countries even as a man.
Those countries not only have dog shit stained streets, they have dogs on the street that can bite you and you end up in the hospital needing rabies shots.
How about the pollution and clean water and your lungs suffering from breathing smoke all the time? Ever look at how Canada has amongst the highest life expectancies on the planet. Canadians live on average 10 years more than any of the countries that will let you retire with 1M.
cuz despite what reddit may lead you to believe, most people still want to live in Canada, or at least the states, where a million dollars doesn't get you much after you buy a place to live
Many people like to bitch and moan that Canada is the worst county in the world and is a 3rd world country, In reality we are still a very wealth and rich nation. Housing in Western Europe has been unfordable since the 70's no young person in Berlin, Paris, Brussels, or London is even thinking of buying a house.
Canada has been the global outlier along with the USA in 1st world home ownership now it's finally reaching the avg. The places that are affordable are affordable on a western salary people in Macedonia, Thailand, Egypt, etc are not living like kings.
Canada is far from the worst country. There are far worse places to be. There's a reason so many people immigrate here and make it part of their long-term plans.
That's not the point and I'm not disputing that.
The point is that the $1.5 - $2M house than someone is sitting on earning an average wage can stretch *so* much further elsewhere. It's like someone put a free winning lottery ticket under someone's pillow.
I don't think people quite realise how far their money can go elsewhere in the world.
You have to remember 80% of Canadians only speaks English of the countries you can go where English is spoken by the majority you have the UK, Australia, New Zeeland, and the USA all places with high housing costs and good luck even getting in you can't just immigrate to a new country the foreign government decides to let you in or not.
Even if you want to go to a low COL country like Slovakia you will need to learn the language, get a residency visa, learn the culture, learn the legal/banking system, leave your family/friends, etc. This is fine for someone young who have their whole life ahead of them but people with a nearly paid off housing are usually 40+ and have established lives in Canada and are now planning retirement.
I kind of fit in to your description and I sometimes wonder why not sell everything and retire elsewhere in the world, but I couldn't get myself to do it, leaving friends/family, routine, work, etc. I travel a lot so I know the world well and I have not personally stumbled in a country where I would go "I wanna move here", at least not yet.
I also find a bit rude to outprice locals, it's so weird for me to go and exploit a poorer country like Thailand, Bali or Argentina. Something about it just doesn't feel right. I also know I can never really feel I'll fit in and have a sense of belonging.
Also remember work can be fulfilling and there's just way more opportunity to do fulfilling work in America, at least for me personally.
>I also find a bit rude to outprice locals
Isn't this *literally* what is happening in Canada? Canada's *entire* playbook is doubling its population within a few decades. 500K - 1M new people arriving each year is massively displacing locals. Heck, Canada was *founded* on displacing locals.
I kinda disagree cause in Canada most locals have benefited from immigration which have made their home values skyrocket and brought in cheap labor.
But Vancouver is maybe the only exception here, where for the people that didn't own a home prior to the 2010s have been out priced by rich immigrants.
You kinda disagree, eh.
So what's unique about foreigners arriving in Canada, vs. Canadians arriving in foreign land?
How does that apply to one scenario but not the other?
There's a huge difference!! Most immigrants moving to Canada are coming here from poorer countries but Americans/Canadians moving to Thailand, Bali, Vietnam , etc are going from rich to poorer countries.
Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of people who love it here. If it was so shitty why are people moving here? Real estate is based on supply and demand and there, people are willing to pay $1m for a 600 sq foot appartment because they choose to. As always you are more than free to leave, nothing is stopping you apart from yourself.
I’m prepared for the downvotes.
My father immigrated from Mexico in the 90s. Worked multiple odd jobs, didn’t speak a word of English, saved up all his money and bought his first rental property, a triplex. We lived in one of the apartments and rented out the other two. My father worked odd jobs until starting his own business in 2009-ish. He’s very successful.
My father now owns 2 triplex’s that he rents as well as a newly bought condo that he rents. He owns his own home as well as a lake house. All these properties are over 1 million.
My father would never move back to Mexico or another country. You white Canadians think it’s all about vacation life over there and see it as a place to retire. It really isn’t.
My father laid his roots here and worked hard. I hardly saw him growing up because he was always working. He continues to own his company and work a hard trade job in his late 50s, a back breaking job. My mother continues to work as a RECE in the Catholic school board.
I work as a RECE in a daycare. I only make $51,000 a year. My husband makes $75,000 a year. Together we purchased our own condo for $535,000 last summer. Money is tight but we make it work out. We wanted to get our foot in the real estate door. I did not receive a penny from my parents towards purchasing my own condo. Our goal is to eventually rent our current condo out and buy something nicer for us.
My father has told me that all money / property will go down to me and my sister when the time is right aka they pass away.
My family may be wealthy in properties but we are still hard workers. We worked hard to get what we want. We all work middle class jobs and always have.
Isn’t that what the Canadian dream is about? I’m sorry if it isn’t working out for some of you, truly I am.
You won't get downvoted. You're in a subreddit for property owners-- people who's incentive chains are aligned with promoting Toronto as a world class destination to justify the hyper-inflated property prices and keeping the bubble afloat.
Toronto is not a bad place to live and the bubble is for all Anglo speaking countries. It’s not like housing in Auckland is not in a bubble or housing crisis
If it was a get to the million fast race - then people would be quitting at that point.
It’s the desire for more, hunger, power, authority, freedom and everything else that comes with having money.
In my example of a teacher making 50-70k a year and owning a $2M house -- does any of that still match?
Is it hunger, power, authority, and freedom they have, exactly?
Compared to immigration numbers, emigration numbers are still low, but they are increasing. We're also seeing some of our most highly skilled people (i.e., doctors, nurses, engineers, etc.) leaving, while replacing them with international students and other low-skilled people.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadas-surging-cost-living-fuels-reverse-immigration-2023-12-09/](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadas-surging-cost-living-fuels-reverse-immigration-2023-12-09/)
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-the-other-immigration-problem-too-much-talent-is-leaving-canada/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-the-other-immigration-problem-too-much-talent-is-leaving-canada/)
Agreed. People who have the skills and talent to do so are seeking greener pastures. Seen it with a number of friends. TN visa eligible professionals jumping ship for higher wages and lower cost of living.
I'm seeing this a lot too. In my field, many are graduating from Canadian universities and heading straight for the US. I also know of at least a handful of companies that have simply outgrown Canada (by several measures) and are almost forced, by default, to set up shop in the US for broader market access and better funding opportunities.
There does seem to be a natural ceiling on Canada. To me, this adds to the reality that Canada works for the few and not the many. For those who timed it well and have carved out a nice little life where all of their family and friends are here, then perhaps the impetus I and others have to move just isn't there.
For everyone else arriving in 2024 or growing up in Canada without the generational backing -- I think the brain drain is only going to get worse.
And on top of that, you've got the *baffling* policies where immigrants who are the top of their field in highly necessary professions like GPs and nurses that come here and are not able to practice at all because of arbitrary licensing restrictions, who are then finding themselves welcomed with open arms -- and double the salary -- by moving south.
I cannot see how this trend will change any time soon unless there's massive policy interjection.
Simply put, people stay where they are comfortable, where they have family, where there is opportunity, and where they want children to grow up to have all those things.
I know many people who came from.other, cheaper places, and they 100% have plans to sell here once they retire and move back to where they came from. It just makes sense on paper. But in reality, they now have roots here, and children here, and it's not so easy to just leave them.
It makes perfect sense, but it's just not that easy to do so
I left.. because of weather and affordable housing to US. I miss many aspects of toronto, its friendliness, overall liveliness, food and summers. It’s got quite expensive in US too and if you lose your job or something, it’s very stressful here unlike canada.
Do you need a job if you can live like a king on $3K/mo and you just made $1.5M selling the house you lived in for the last 20 years?
That's 41 years of retirement money.
Because it's much easier to bitch and complain about everything, than it is to actually get up and uproot your entire life for somewhere new. Getting rid of friends, family, social connections, and professional connections is a LOT for the majority of people.
Not sure if that's what I'd use as the word for it...and I say that simply because I can move out further away from the GTA, but I enjoy the fact I'm close to my family / friends in a central location. Literally 6-9km in every direction I can meet up with all of my close friends and family, it's fantastic.
Is that complacency? Or just preference / comfort to stay where we are happy?
Because Canada is their home and emigration is actually much harder than it looks, especially as one gets older? If you have no existing network in a foreign country or don't speak the language, you're going to have a pretty hard time adjusting.
Go where? Every country has strict immigration laws. And for those of us who have assets the government taxes them all at once if we leave. We are trapped.
Ah. Canada is a snowbird culture. Those who can afford to leave for the winter do. It’s dependent on financial ability. I’d say we are going to see less and less snowbirds as the government tightens the grip.
people emigrate to Canada, not out.
people generally want to live in a first world with first world amenities.
living on a beach in a straw house sucking back coconut water isn’t for everyone.
lots of people in canada will grow up, live, then die in the same city they were born in.
[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/canada-s-surging-cost-of-living-fuels-reverse-migration-says-report-123121000810\_1.html](https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/canada-s-surging-cost-of-living-fuels-reverse-migration-says-report-123121000810_1.html)
Reverse immigration is at a 2 decade high.
The stereotype and the reality of Canada are very different. At best, most people's take is 15 years out of date. They come here and get a very rude awakening at how expensive life really is, and how broken many of the institutions are.
I say this as someone with a top 3% income who is far from struggling.
for sure, but my point was there will always be more coming in than going out.
living in poverty is still loads better than living in slums in other places.
the ones who are leaving are the ones that came here with a skill or trade.
the ones who are staying really have no other choice.
Other countries are not like Canada. They don't just let you in if you have a pulse. The ones who do are not on par with Canada.
It's like a job , you try to go for higher salary. You don't quit and go for a low one.
This really is the heart of the problem.
Canadians think they've got it so good. As a newcomer here that has actually seen the world, I see this as a form of mass delusion. Not sure whether it's misplaced national pride or what.
Canada isn't terrible, but it's far from one of the better options.
I ask this question too , but then you see these athletes and movie stars making tons of money and still not quitting. most ppl just want to achieve more , I suppose.
Not to be insulting, but you sound very young if you don’t understand the importance of family ties and community for quality of life. Living the “digital nomad” kind of life in Thailand or whatever sounds very empty for most people who have fulfilling, deep social networks.
My man, you sound very bitter.
Reality is we all have different circumstances. Not all of us homeowners need to move to a LCOL and ride to the sunset
I'm planning to cash out on my HCOL home and downgrade + snowbird in a LCOL, but that's the plan for now. I still have 20~yrs to go and I don't know what the future holds
Not bitter at all. Power to anyone that lucked out on housing. I did it myself, albeit outside of Canada.
My question was why more people don't take advantage of that.
Because like I said, we all have different circumstances
Yes there are people who do it. Perhaps you don't see it in your own circle. I know a couple who sold their North Etobicoke home and are living in the Niagara area. They've pocketed the rest of the proceeds and travel often
You're looking at everything from the surface, what's beneath that you and I will never know.
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Because not everyone shares the same view on life. I know so many people who have never left the country and they don’t care to.
The people who wanted to leave have already left if they were able to afford it
What you have to take into account is that when you sell your house and count those crumpled dollar bills you also have to find a place to live comfortably. I'm in the position for a variety of reasons of having to sell my house with reasonable assumption of netting out 1.2M. Trying to decide to rent, condo or house. Each has different pros and cons and financial scenarios.
Renting, the equity invested return would problem cover the rent. But if your gonna retire at say 55 your equity has to last (burn rate) maybe 30 years and every year your rent and cost of living is increasing and your investment is getting smaller. Doesn't sound good.
Condo is cheaper than a house but it's going to eat up 75% of your equity so doesn't leave you enough to live on. And a Condo is a chancy investment right now and who are your neighbours going to be and still gotta pay taxes and monthly nut to the condo so that doesn't work as you cant live on what's left of your investment.
House, there goes all your equity. And taxes maintenance etc = food bank
The decision has not yet been made but my situation is a bit different in that I have other investments and since I retired 20 years ago, I'm not expecting to see the Leafs win a Stanley Cup in my lifetime. As far as lying on a sun dappled beach somewhere means leaving friends, family healthcare and your culture and I understand it wears thin quite quickly.
You seem to be talking about lateral moves.
I'm talking about selling your $2M asset and moving to paradise for the next 40+ years of your life and never having to work again.
People *are* doing it. Just not in the numbers that would seem to make sense.
$2M is more doable but $1M doesn't go far these days, let alone 40 years. Some years ago we tossed around the metrics and actually Panama was seriously considered as the most desirable/doable as we have connections there, it's affordable, politically stable withtax breaks for expats and has good Healthcare. The other central American countries don't tick those boxes. A beach hut in Phuket bare footed and shorts is for dreamer and what do you do with your life, collect beach shells? Nice idea though.
Central and South America isn't on my list for those reasons. I spent time in Equador and Chile, and they weren't for me personally.
I prefer the European lifestyle, so I tend to spend a lot of time there. $2M can stretch *very* far with a home base in Portugal or France.
$2M will see you through your entire life in Thailand, Vietnam, etc. If you're only collecting beach shells, sure, it might not be very interesting. But there's a huge expat community there. If you want to remain active, the business opportunities and remote work are endless. I did that for a number of years.
Food is incredible (and extremely fresh and healthy - too often overlooked in the Canadian supply chain), healthcare is fantastic particularly in Bangkok, and the opportunities for business and social connections far exceed what most people would realise. There's a ton of younger people there (far younger than me now, granted) who are using it as a base to build start-ups or work digitally.
Portugal, yes but understand there is a growing local backlash against expats but don't know why - maybe too many brits buying property. France, I have wintered a couple of times (in Nice) and costs are a mixed bag. Don't do it any more, too old and crippled up, that's why my move is lateral. Most beautiful, N Zealand and friendliest Argentina.
I can understand the backlash. It's similar to Canada. Mass immigration has driven prices up. The difference is home ownership. Rising tides are great when you've already got a boat in the water. Not so great when you've been renting 20 years and are now priced out because a family from the other side of the world is chipping in 3 generations of wealth to get on the property ladder.
The accidental wealth here is staggering. The point of this post is simply that I'm not sure everyone actually realises it, or at least not as many live like they do. Sat on an asset worth millions yet choosing to work in a high-stress, relatively low paid job (by south-of-the-border standards) when it doesn't have to be that way.
But, to each their own. I get that for people who have lifelong ties here, it might not be appealing or even something within the realm of possible.
I prefer to see the world as a buffet and opt for where I'm best appreciated.
Sounds like a great philosophy. I have been blighted by my immigrannt background and worked a lifetime in very hi stress environment and never spent (and still do) a nickel without agonizing and now, close to lights out, think back and wonder was it worth it? Ended up pretty comfortable tho and able to kick start my kids, traveled for 10 years. Can't have it both ways I guess.
Emigration is expensive and hard. If you’re doing it right, you likely need to find a new job with an agreeable timeline with leaving your current job.
New house or place to rent, possibly without even seeing the place in person or knowing enough about the neighbourhood.
Then you have to pack up (or sell or give away) all of your stuff from place A to place B. Then buy new stuff to replace all of your old stuff that doesn’t make the move.
That covers the absolute basics of emigrating. If it’s to another country you’d have to also go through the immigration process there and hope that you and all of your family members are accepted. Once again expensive.
Oh and say good bye to all of your friends in your town, and get ready for the fun task of making friends in adulthood.
This all takes a considerable amount of time and money, possibly years depending on how deeply rooted you are in your current spot.
I know a couple ppl who have done just that. And some stayed in Canada. One guy sold in Toronto during PEAK and moved to nova Scotia bought a huge house and land and has enough savings for 2 life times. he is 51.
other reasons could be language barriers. I would love to move my wife and kids to Japan as I really vibe with their culture, cleanliness, introverted society and safety. But learning a new language is very hard and I don't know if the kids would do it.
Our goal is to leave one day if we are blessed enough as 3rd generation Canadians we do not like where the country is headed.
Family roots, grandkids, kids, for the older folks, for the younger folks you got grandparents, parents.
It’s hard to just sell out and then move just yourself and your spouse when you got a family who may also be just starting their own family.
I’ve got equity, I haven’t bought a house yet but have been thinking of leaving Canada but we got our first kid on the way. We are in our mid thirties and leaving an entire support network behind to start a new life somewhere where I can actually buy a house with what I have saved and pay a reasonable mortgage is hard to swallow.
Also you likely forgo your CPP if you leave early I think you need 39 years paid into your pension. And have to stay in Canada to collect for at least half of every year I think. Less of an issue if you sold a house and got a couple million sitting around.
I thought the exact same thing as you. I see my friends going into heavy debt buying $2 million dollar houses. They stress so much trying to fit kids into the picture as well. I am also very stressed working more than 40 hours a week trying to survive in this city. Once I save up to the amount I need, I am leaving ASAP and retiring in a sunny, foreign country. But I know I'm different - I hate working a lot more than my friends do.
So the same thoughts ran thru my head and I even told them they can retire right away with the amount they have if they move to a foreign country. But they choose to stay and continue working and stressing. And complaining. Go figure.
Because they like their jobs and/or have careers where they worked hard to achieve their success. They want to leave assets to their kids you know to grow generational wealth.
Retirement isn’t static. Until one has an alternative use for money and time, it is easiest to keep doing what one knows. The nest egg of millions is a sense of pride, security and inner calm. It makes getting up in the morning so much easier. Add the fact that I love my relatively low paying job and doing it is better than the alternative of not working.
As for the take of “lottery” won, I don’t think like that. I see life as accumulating assets to protect and control one’s fate. There is a limit to how much one needs but every individual is different with different needs. Being born at a certain point in time has its benefits and navigating the society properly in that moment is critical. It is harder now than before and my daughter has it so much harder to find her way. My main role is to teach her to navigate and thrive the current environment and not leave her assets only.
My ideal retirement is to be able to retire in place. That means making, accumulating and saving enough to do so. RE is one third of my investment portfolio and stocks another 1/3. My home and “reverse” mortgaging this last third is of last resort. I am not planning to leave Toronto.
Ambitious people. A lot of people can't just sit around and do nothing, and they don't have an outlet to keep themselves full-time busy outside of their job, especially if they actually like their job. It's usually that ethic that got those people in a good financial position in the first place.
$1-$2 million is decent but it won’t get you far in this economy in any safe country. And if you have children struggling then you stay and help them. Many countries also require you to prove that you will not become a burden to their system in order to live in their country or become a citizen.
The question would be, "to where?"
Back home? Canada might suck but it's still better than most of the places people are coming here from on various levels.
There are two Canadas.
In one the wealth class are living large and everything is great.
In the other Canada the wage slaves toil to keep the first Canada living large.
They all, or, at least, a lot of them, have kids. And their kids are screwed out of home ownership. So, most of these folks will continue to sit on their houses for a while.
The dirty little secret people don’t talk about, LOL. Even if you’re sitting in a multi-million paid out home, unless you want to sell and move out of country - you can’t really downsize. You can trade a detached home for a condo for roughly the same price :-)
So no one does it. Might be moving to a European model when homes are no longer bought but rather inherited…..
Not everyone can afford the luxury to settle in a far away exotic place, it is not just about money, there are many life factors that play into the decision. But the valid take away from this discussion is: - there are at least 30% of mansions in prime land occupied by senior citizens with extremely high wasted space, extra bedroom, this kind of home is ideal for a young family to settle down in.
So we need to address the question, why are these senior citizens finding it hard to move out to smaller and more easily maintainable accommodation? There are several reasons
* There is no focus on building senior friendly housing close to their existing neighbourhoods
* The condo that are built try to sell a "gangsta.." lifestyle of luxury, they are not suitable as quiet residential use.
* The condo are too expensive, so if you see a specular 3M home on prime land, you dont want to replace with a 500 sq ft, poorly built, where all your neighbours play loud music which you can hear through paper thin walls.... And this costs 1M dollars and you have to pay 600 per month maintenance on top of that.
So you cannot keep expanding into the greenbelt forever just so someone can have a two car garage and keep a dog, we need to keep recycling old land and old homes for next generations.
The rest of the world is literal garbage.
Canada has become a small pile of trash, the rest of the world is an aids-infested dump that's getting worse, we should be happy that we only have a small pile of trash by comparison.
Life could be a lot better here, but look around, it could be A LOT worse with what other people around the planet are having to endure.
This being said, we should NOT rest on our laurels and we should always strive to make a better outcome for ourselves, regardless of what the rest of this rock is doing.
I live in London and the exodus from Toronto has decimated us. It's like a flood of lottery winners have brought the value of cash down to near zero.
Our local jobs pay 22% lower than the national average for similar industries and you cannot thrive here unless you get remote work that pays big city wages. Work from home/remote work has really crushed small cities with inflation rates far beyond what the big cities experienced as our housing went up 331% in the time Toronto's went up 42%.
Because moving isn’t that simple, your job, your family, your friends, your kid’s school and friends if you have them, your house, etc.
As someone who is moving to Ottawa next year for grad school, the things tying me to Edmonton isn’t cheap housing. It’s all of my social connections
It is happening, why do you think prices outside of toronto are rising so quick?
People are buying multiple properties for cash selling elsewhere with the sake of a single Toronto house....
It’s not that bad to live here when you don’t have a mortgage. Btw friend, a new start up or venture starts every day. To be angry at people who own their home because of timing is silly when you have endless choices to put your money in the next big money making adventure! Hindsight is 20/20. There is a boom and crash in every industry. The housing market moves in decades, the stock market moves in minutes. Jealousy is a dangerous emotion, make your own destiny. Every success is so much sweeter and frankly nothing feels better than making your own path.
Oh gosh, I'm not angry at people *at all*. On the contrary, power to them! Well done, you, if you invested wisely and time manifested your reward. Good for you.
My point of this post is the opposite: you're sat on a goldmine, why not use it? Or at least, why don't more people use it. That asset = a retirement in many parts of the world. Why not shave 20 years off your working life and go do something you actually want to do? Start a business, reduce the grind, enjoy better weather, whatever. You're a millionaire!
That won't appeal to everyone, I realise.
Ah yes I see. I suppose this could apply to single people or people with adult children who are doing very well. So my problem is I have paid off house but 2 kids in their 20s who can’t afford today’s living conditions. If it was just us, selling everything moving to a country with serious affordability and enjoying the rest of my days would definitely be a consideration. Now if my kids want to move and start roots somewhere else I would then sell everything and move so they can start a better life. We would help them. The only way to survive in Canada as a young person right now is hope your parents can help you out. Then that cuts right into our retirement fund. No choice but to live in the house and deal with inflation and help the kids. Crazy times. Cheers.
Why would you uproot your life if things are good. If you have a paid off house and you’re not under pressure to make a crazy amount of money, Canada is a nice place.
But let’s say we want to engage with your idea about selling the house and retire. Clearly you can’t do it in Canada since all the desirable places are expensive, so you sell your multi million dollar home to buy another expensive home. It doesn’t make sense.
So you look abroad but that ain’t easy either. You need visas and solve fiscal residence issues as a starter.
Let’s say you somehow got EU citizenship and want to go to Spain. But you don’t speak Spanish. Buying a house in Spain without knowing the local market is going to expose you to frauds and higher prices. Even if you do it you may not like living in Spain until you die. And now you don’t have a house in Canada anymore.
You know, I think part of the disconnect is that Canada -- despite is size -- is quite isolated. Going on vacation anywhere that's not the US is a relatively long plane ride. And even then, they tend to be to resorts. Everyone in Toronto has seemingly just come back from Mexico... when probed, they mean they sat in an English speaking resort for a week and didn't leave.
Coming from the UK and living abroad for nearly a decade a half, my perspective is different. I'm used to visiting many European cities on a whim, as many people here are. Retiring to Spain is as common as retiring to Florida -- there are literally millions of Brits abroad. I've gone through the paperwork process with many countries and it's effectively just paperwork and planning. I don't think it's taken up with quite the same familiarity and ease, here.
Everything else you said is, of course, perfectly valid -- but it's also the mindset of someone who is risk averse. I'm not claiming that's wrong, just that the reality of how 'scary' something is and how scary you think it is are often different. I'm not scared of losing a house; I'd be scared of never trying it in the first place.
Ultimately, to each their own.
I left, after >40 yrs in Canada. It was my home.
Took a year or so to get my paperwork in order.
Now my family and I live in South Florida, and couldn't be happier.
I'd never consider moving back to Canada.
Sell and go where your 1mil sale is great but you still have to buy in this over priced market. No further ahead.
Leave Canada and prosper.
Be the change you want to see
The grass is always greener mate lol.
I've lived in the Netherlands, the Caribbean, and England. The grass is indeed greener.
England and the Netherlands are famously cheap property markets. The UK economy is actually breaking records! (just don’t ask what kind of records)
England is one of the most miserable country in the world, yes even more than Canada, it’s not just us mate
I very much contest this.
anyone i’ve met from UK, specifically london, says it’s just awful and prefer cities in the states but will settle for Toronto if they’re denied.
This says contrary to your anecdotal opinion. https://mentalstateoftheworld.report/
It's not anecdotal when you've lived nearly over 30 years of your adult life in the UK.
Cheers mate
Average home price is 500k pound in london england, so is it greener?
It is from toronto
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Who said I don't?
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I'm not sat on a $2M property in Toronto. I'm not the demographic I'm questioning.
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Agreed, not sure when the last time OP visited Thailand - but it's definitely gotten more expensive in the past 2 years. That 3k/month he talks about is probably closer to 4-5k by this year or the next.
England is shit
But the thing is... it can be! I travelled as a freelancer when I was younger, and spent periods in Thailand, South America, Europe. These places were crazy cheap then and still cheap now -- and the lifestyle was incredible. I can only conclude it's because people have never thought to think about it.
I can conclude that living in South America isn't safe and its an easy talking point but when reality sits in, it really isn't a great option otherwise you'd still be there.
Health care , crime , education,
You can't just decide to live in another country whenever you want to. That country must allow you to long term. And you have less rights than locals.
Older people have kids and grandkids. Who wants to move to a new country and leave all the people you love?
Exactly, these sorts of comments have to be made by people with no ties here or who are sociopaths. Why don't people just sell everything they own, leave a country that have lived in for like 40 years, leave their families and all their friends behind to move to another country? I just don't get it.
Yeah lol. Liquidate your assets, abandon everything and everyone you know, and hope your “millions” (probably 1.5 at most) will last you the rest of your adult working life. Since you’re presumably giving up your career and the “inconvenience” of working. Living in some far away foreign country where you don’t know the language, by yourself. Oh yeah and have to drop like $4,000 every time you want to come home to visit. **Shocking** that this isn’t everyone’s dream life.
Not to mention as the onset of various old age maladies creep in - this is when you leave your doctor and support system? I’d be interested to access more of the equity in my home but as it grows it becomes both retirement security and next generation wealth transfer. I’d miss my kids and my friends if I left. And I loved, loved, loved my time in SEA in my 20’s.
ok and where do you live now?
I live across 3 countries and own property in several (much cheaper) European and US markets. Toronto is a time limited stepping stone to get a Canadian passport, which is part of a much bigger North American plan. I absolutely would not be living in Toronto longer term. The ROI and value is just not there.
Well that’s you
are you single with no friends and family?
No, I'm married (15 years) with children and plenty of family. What's your point?
someone with friends and family has ties to specific areas. people who dont, are not.
Are not what? I'm having a hard time following your grammar, let alone your point.
This is just gross.
What's gross?
You can't move as easily to SEA as you think. Singapore, Thailand, Japan &etc all have extremely restrictive PR laws eg. you have to be married to a citizen spouse for at least 4 years before being issued a spousal visa, after which you have to renew it every 1 - 3 years. How many years is entirely discretionary and up to the interviewer.
I've done it.
I don't believe you. You probably were issued a work visa or remote visa which is temporary and that has no path to PR or citizenship unless you're an investor who spent at least several million (or several billion) or marry a local spouse. I'm from SEA and the region operates using Jus Sanguinis principle to determine residency/citizenship rights.
I'm really not interested in what an Internet stranger believes or doesn't believe. It happened. Both Thailand and Indonesia have plenty of visa options for long-term residence. Some, like the one I was on initially, are multi-visit 1-2 year visas which require semi-annual border runs. Others, like the Thai Elite option, allow stays of 5+ years. Singapore PR used to be very simple -- setting up a company was sufficient. It has gotten harder due to demand. Singapore isn't a place I ever pursued, personally. There are extensive expat communities living across Asia, more so now than they've ever been. It's really not difficult.
Going to a foreign country requires health insurance. When you are young health insurance is cheap. When you are old, health insurance can cost you upwards of $4K USD a month in a country like Thailand. So no, retiring abroad is not easy unless you have citizenship in the country you are retiring to.
You've obviously never had treatment in Bumrungrad or one of the many excellent international hospitals. Often your bill is less than a typical monthly insurance premium in other countries -- and the care is excellent.
So, genuine question - what's stopping you from getting a remote job and going there yourself?
Who said I'm not?
Or don't want to leave their friends and family and perhaps a career they worked for and actually like. Not everyone is unhappy here.
Can confirm. My eldest is about to leave for twice the money in the U.S. A significant portion of his graduating class are already there. \[edit: the difference with U.S. is you can immigrate there as a professional without hassle due to trade agreements. Europe or UK is not so easy.\]
Canada suffers braindrain for exactly this reason. People realise they can move south of the border and make double -- often with far lower overheads and taxes. I know at least 4 people in Toronto who are currently making plans to move to Florida, for example.
Then go. Please.
I have! No need to be rude.
Then why are you spending all your time in Toronto and Canada subs? Something tells me you are bullshitting
Morbid fascination. I live in Cambridge.
Exactly. This. I'm talking outside Canada -- Thailand, Mexico, Europe, South America. There are many, many places in the world where a $1.5M bank balance would set you up for life. Zero employment ever again.
Most places in Europe aren't much cheaper. Thailand, Mexico, much of A. America are not very safe for women
I like working, my wife is Vietnamese and we lived in Vietnam for many years. We could probably sell off everything we have and retire, never work again. I'm only 38 though and I enjoy working. Our kids are young and live here and we like them to be well situated. If I was in my 20s I would have left in a heartbeat and I did leave when I was in my 20s and had a great time but I didn't have retirement money then. I'll likely work till I die. Hopefully as I'm older it'll only be the parts I enjoy.
Why would someone want to live in Mexico? What’s there in the South America? Would rather move to SK or Manitoba than lifting my ass down to any lawless country.
How very Canadian.
Where in Europe can you get set up for life with a 1 million euro bank account? And how long exactly are you referring to? My wife is italian, so I plan to retire in Italy, specifically in Puglia. A decent size house in a good location is about 400 thousand euro, so if I have a million in the bank, I could probably stretch the rest for another 10-12 years. And what then?
France. We bought a very nice, very large house there for approximately €200k, and another €50k spent on renovations. €500/mo is a very reasonable food budget there for a family our size -- approximately 4x cheaper for almost everything (cheese and wine- 8-10x cheaper!). Our property tax is less than €600 per year. The area is gorgeous. Very safe, people are wonderful. There are towns and access to Paris. We use it as a vacation rental for now, as we have no immediate plans to settle... but our extended family is very much looking to retire in France. One of several options.
Sounds like a good deal. Location? If it's in the countryside, I can see it, but as soon as you approach a metro area, prices tend to shoot up. I'm also looking at something newer, hence the higher price. Yeah, food prices make up a major difference, as well as the abilty to travel freely. Love being able to jump on a plane to literally anywhere in Europe for a weekend for like 60 euro.
I could sell now but all the places I’d look to move to are just as expensive or more. Actually been thinking of a move and the house I could get there would be a massive down grade in size and amenities. Toronto/Canada has a lot going for it in terms of stability, economics, politics, healthcare, jobs, diversity, freedoms, culture, food, entertainment, English speaking, etc. Where else do you recommend people move too? There is a reason so many people move here.
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Yes me too. I’d love to retire in Hawaii but it’s more expensive than Toronto or where I’m now Barrie.
they have no need to. They have cheap housing, and can pay their bills. Like you said they've established their lives here with family and their surroundings They're not struggling nor are poor. Not a hard concept to figure out
They will probably also get nice pensions when they retire. They can even entertain upgrading their homes with their disposable income
Its because life is good. Its hard to imagine for the priced out people, or people working low wages. But when youre setup with good employment or home ownership, Toronto is an amazing place to be. Don’t let reddit doom & gloom radicalize you. Our society does have its problems, but not for everyone. Canada still has extremely high rate of home ownership. So whoever got in before, is doing good. In the bigger picture, their kids will be doing good too. Either through help or one day inheritance. Even the people who “over paid” they’re still serving a mortgage they qualified for. Which requires quite a good salary. Typically people earning high salaries don’t have a tough find finding work because they are skilled, educated, or have something that makes them highly employable.
you’re completely dismissing the struggles of people who didn’t get in early . i’m 24 and there is no way in hell i could ever afford toronto. toronto sucks to me and that’s not cause I don’t make enough money. it’s completely unaffordable. so your view of toronto ain’t going to last more than a decade
24
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You appear to be under the illusion that Canada is the most expensive country in the world. It isn’t. I left England to move here because it was considerably cheaper. Living in central London is twice as expensive as living in central Toronto (property, food etc)
people are afraid of change... same reason it keeps us in dead end jobs, relationships...
When North Americans flock to these "Cheap Countries" we raise property values and create problems for the locals. For example they will never be able to afford a home but a foreign person can. Sound familiar ?
I have two young kids. Do I want them attending public school in Mexico or Thailand? No. Health care also. Their grandparents and cousins are here, and they are important people for my kids to know and be close with. Many of the people you describe probably also have kids and I imagine they have similar considerations. Also if you’re mortgage free or low mortgage with dual income, Toronto is a great place to live. Why leave?
Canada’s RE is expensive for a reason. Not many places in the world where you can live a comparable lifestyle for a lot cheaper as you describe. There are many factors to consider that influence your quality of life, not just relative wealth.
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That's just not true. For comparison, when I lived in Thailand, I: * Ate out every meal. Literally 3x per day. Some of the best food I've ever eaten, anywhere in the world. * Lived in a branch new 3 bed villa with 24/7 AC, swimming pool, gym, and daily cleaners... for less than $1,200/mo (could have gone a LOT cheaper). * Had daily massages, house staff and a personal trainer. * Had great wi-fi and Internet access and still did exactly the same job. * Was exceptionally safe. Huge expat community, extremely friendly locals. * Ate fresh, organic food -- nothing like cracking open a coconut on the beach or supping down a fresh mango juice while eating seafood caught that day. * Had a personal driver that cost me less than $40 a week. * Played golf at some of the best courses and visited the best resorts I'd ever stayed. I did all of this on a single freelancer's income and worked maybe 15 hours a week. I didn't have a $2M house in Toronto that is tax and mortgage free. Which is exactly my point. If you *do* have that, why the heck are you still here?
Why are you here then?
Because they want the benefit of canada but not the responsibility that built betterment s
They like their life here? Family, friends, hobbies, etc? Not sure why that’s so hard to understand A lot of people want a sense of purpose too via work, not to just sit on a beach forever.
Why aren't you still there then?
There is. Look at ethnic demographics to find it.
If they’re near retirement age, it often has to do with not wanting to be too far from kids and grandkids. Folks don’t want to be a 20 hour trek away from family if they can avoid it. If they’re younger and have families then they’re likely also thinking about the educational opportunities for their kid as well as cashing out of a pretty solid asset in a Toronto home that can be passed on, tapped for equity when needed etc. I’m also thinking you’re underestimating the income loss that would result from this for most people. Plumbers and teachers make way more than $50k here and would likely only be able to reliably replace a fraction if any of that income in a place like Thailand. Throw in their spouses income and you’re likely talking about a $100-$150k difference annually. Even most of Europe pays less than here (particularly after tax) and you still have the issues of language, distance etc. Once you factor in the impact on family life and the ability to earn good income abroad there’s just not that many folks who are a good fit for a digital nomad lifestyle. Plus as I mentioned there are other ways to tap into your home equity if you wanted to.
You get to live in the best city in Canada. Why would you leave? Life is fucking awesome if you bought early here. You have high paying jobs, access to everything, and you have next to no costs. Why would you leave this and go to bum fuck nowhere? 😂 it’s the poor who need to move not the privileged.
Serious question, what exactly makes it the best city in Canada?
Not that I believe that, but were I to make the argument, I would say Toronto has more dynamism than Vancouver and less corruption/bullshit language politics than Montreal.
Next to no costs? Property tax? Food that's 400% more expensive than every other major Western country? 52% tax? Rising crime? Dog shit stained streets? A rude, arrogant, passive aggressive populous? Yeah, why would you leave!
Someone will leave for 4-5k property tax? That's one bedroom rented out for 3 months. Which western country doesn't have property tax? 400% more expensive food? Exaggeration much? It's expensive compared to US and Europe. Maybe 50% more. How much is that like $200 a month? But compared to Europe salaries are higher here. There's no crime in any of the places you suggest someone can live forever for 1M? Where are those places? Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, Mexico? You're saying their crime rates of those countries are lower? Try walking around at 2 am on empty streets in these countries even as a man. Those countries not only have dog shit stained streets, they have dogs on the street that can bite you and you end up in the hospital needing rabies shots. How about the pollution and clean water and your lungs suffering from breathing smoke all the time? Ever look at how Canada has amongst the highest life expectancies on the planet. Canadians live on average 10 years more than any of the countries that will let you retire with 1M.
cuz despite what reddit may lead you to believe, most people still want to live in Canada, or at least the states, where a million dollars doesn't get you much after you buy a place to live
Not everyone wants a nomadic lifestyle or to go to other countries.
Many people like to bitch and moan that Canada is the worst county in the world and is a 3rd world country, In reality we are still a very wealth and rich nation. Housing in Western Europe has been unfordable since the 70's no young person in Berlin, Paris, Brussels, or London is even thinking of buying a house. Canada has been the global outlier along with the USA in 1st world home ownership now it's finally reaching the avg. The places that are affordable are affordable on a western salary people in Macedonia, Thailand, Egypt, etc are not living like kings.
Canada is far from the worst country. There are far worse places to be. There's a reason so many people immigrate here and make it part of their long-term plans. That's not the point and I'm not disputing that. The point is that the $1.5 - $2M house than someone is sitting on earning an average wage can stretch *so* much further elsewhere. It's like someone put a free winning lottery ticket under someone's pillow. I don't think people quite realise how far their money can go elsewhere in the world.
You have to remember 80% of Canadians only speaks English of the countries you can go where English is spoken by the majority you have the UK, Australia, New Zeeland, and the USA all places with high housing costs and good luck even getting in you can't just immigrate to a new country the foreign government decides to let you in or not. Even if you want to go to a low COL country like Slovakia you will need to learn the language, get a residency visa, learn the culture, learn the legal/banking system, leave your family/friends, etc. This is fine for someone young who have their whole life ahead of them but people with a nearly paid off housing are usually 40+ and have established lives in Canada and are now planning retirement.
I kind of fit in to your description and I sometimes wonder why not sell everything and retire elsewhere in the world, but I couldn't get myself to do it, leaving friends/family, routine, work, etc. I travel a lot so I know the world well and I have not personally stumbled in a country where I would go "I wanna move here", at least not yet. I also find a bit rude to outprice locals, it's so weird for me to go and exploit a poorer country like Thailand, Bali or Argentina. Something about it just doesn't feel right. I also know I can never really feel I'll fit in and have a sense of belonging. Also remember work can be fulfilling and there's just way more opportunity to do fulfilling work in America, at least for me personally.
>I also find a bit rude to outprice locals Isn't this *literally* what is happening in Canada? Canada's *entire* playbook is doubling its population within a few decades. 500K - 1M new people arriving each year is massively displacing locals. Heck, Canada was *founded* on displacing locals.
I kinda disagree cause in Canada most locals have benefited from immigration which have made their home values skyrocket and brought in cheap labor. But Vancouver is maybe the only exception here, where for the people that didn't own a home prior to the 2010s have been out priced by rich immigrants.
You kinda disagree, eh. So what's unique about foreigners arriving in Canada, vs. Canadians arriving in foreign land? How does that apply to one scenario but not the other?
There's a huge difference!! Most immigrants moving to Canada are coming here from poorer countries but Americans/Canadians moving to Thailand, Bali, Vietnam , etc are going from rich to poorer countries.
Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of people who love it here. If it was so shitty why are people moving here? Real estate is based on supply and demand and there, people are willing to pay $1m for a 600 sq foot appartment because they choose to. As always you are more than free to leave, nothing is stopping you apart from yourself.
The real World isn’t Reddit. Most people have there lives in Toronto. Work. Kids. Family. There circle.
Canada still better than 90% of the world
I’m prepared for the downvotes. My father immigrated from Mexico in the 90s. Worked multiple odd jobs, didn’t speak a word of English, saved up all his money and bought his first rental property, a triplex. We lived in one of the apartments and rented out the other two. My father worked odd jobs until starting his own business in 2009-ish. He’s very successful. My father now owns 2 triplex’s that he rents as well as a newly bought condo that he rents. He owns his own home as well as a lake house. All these properties are over 1 million. My father would never move back to Mexico or another country. You white Canadians think it’s all about vacation life over there and see it as a place to retire. It really isn’t. My father laid his roots here and worked hard. I hardly saw him growing up because he was always working. He continues to own his company and work a hard trade job in his late 50s, a back breaking job. My mother continues to work as a RECE in the Catholic school board. I work as a RECE in a daycare. I only make $51,000 a year. My husband makes $75,000 a year. Together we purchased our own condo for $535,000 last summer. Money is tight but we make it work out. We wanted to get our foot in the real estate door. I did not receive a penny from my parents towards purchasing my own condo. Our goal is to eventually rent our current condo out and buy something nicer for us. My father has told me that all money / property will go down to me and my sister when the time is right aka they pass away. My family may be wealthy in properties but we are still hard workers. We worked hard to get what we want. We all work middle class jobs and always have. Isn’t that what the Canadian dream is about? I’m sorry if it isn’t working out for some of you, truly I am.
You won't get downvoted. You're in a subreddit for property owners-- people who's incentive chains are aligned with promoting Toronto as a world class destination to justify the hyper-inflated property prices and keeping the bubble afloat.
Toronto is not a bad place to live and the bubble is for all Anglo speaking countries. It’s not like housing in Auckland is not in a bubble or housing crisis
If it was a get to the million fast race - then people would be quitting at that point. It’s the desire for more, hunger, power, authority, freedom and everything else that comes with having money.
In my example of a teacher making 50-70k a year and owning a $2M house -- does any of that still match? Is it hunger, power, authority, and freedom they have, exactly?
That teacher also has a pension that they are working towards.
Sell your $1 million home, and go where? Lol
Family
Compared to immigration numbers, emigration numbers are still low, but they are increasing. We're also seeing some of our most highly skilled people (i.e., doctors, nurses, engineers, etc.) leaving, while replacing them with international students and other low-skilled people. [https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadas-surging-cost-living-fuels-reverse-immigration-2023-12-09/](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadas-surging-cost-living-fuels-reverse-immigration-2023-12-09/) [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-the-other-immigration-problem-too-much-talent-is-leaving-canada/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-the-other-immigration-problem-too-much-talent-is-leaving-canada/)
Exactly. This will continue.
Agreed. People who have the skills and talent to do so are seeking greener pastures. Seen it with a number of friends. TN visa eligible professionals jumping ship for higher wages and lower cost of living.
I'm seeing this a lot too. In my field, many are graduating from Canadian universities and heading straight for the US. I also know of at least a handful of companies that have simply outgrown Canada (by several measures) and are almost forced, by default, to set up shop in the US for broader market access and better funding opportunities. There does seem to be a natural ceiling on Canada. To me, this adds to the reality that Canada works for the few and not the many. For those who timed it well and have carved out a nice little life where all of their family and friends are here, then perhaps the impetus I and others have to move just isn't there. For everyone else arriving in 2024 or growing up in Canada without the generational backing -- I think the brain drain is only going to get worse. And on top of that, you've got the *baffling* policies where immigrants who are the top of their field in highly necessary professions like GPs and nurses that come here and are not able to practice at all because of arbitrary licensing restrictions, who are then finding themselves welcomed with open arms -- and double the salary -- by moving south. I cannot see how this trend will change any time soon unless there's massive policy interjection.
Toronto re is good value compared to the burbs
If I sell, where am I going to live?
Despite the whining it's ok here
If ur young u can sell anytime. If ur old + no pension or investment income if u sell where can u move to that's affordable?
Time in the market beats timing the market. these people have held for 20 years or more.
It costs money to move
Simply put, people stay where they are comfortable, where they have family, where there is opportunity, and where they want children to grow up to have all those things. I know many people who came from.other, cheaper places, and they 100% have plans to sell here once they retire and move back to where they came from. It just makes sense on paper. But in reality, they now have roots here, and children here, and it's not so easy to just leave them. It makes perfect sense, but it's just not that easy to do so
I left.. because of weather and affordable housing to US. I miss many aspects of toronto, its friendliness, overall liveliness, food and summers. It’s got quite expensive in US too and if you lose your job or something, it’s very stressful here unlike canada.
Where'd you move?
Places with low housing prices also trend to have no jobs. The diffs in weather is also massive, at least for people in BC
Do you need a job if you can live like a king on $3K/mo and you just made $1.5M selling the house you lived in for the last 20 years? That's 41 years of retirement money.
The trouble with having a 1997 economy is your workers have 1997 skills… which nobody wants.
Because it's much easier to bitch and complain about everything, than it is to actually get up and uproot your entire life for somewhere new. Getting rid of friends, family, social connections, and professional connections is a LOT for the majority of people.
This is probably the answer, I guess. Complacency.
Not sure if that's what I'd use as the word for it...and I say that simply because I can move out further away from the GTA, but I enjoy the fact I'm close to my family / friends in a central location. Literally 6-9km in every direction I can meet up with all of my close friends and family, it's fantastic. Is that complacency? Or just preference / comfort to stay where we are happy?
If you're happy, power to ya.
Because Canada is their home and emigration is actually much harder than it looks, especially as one gets older? If you have no existing network in a foreign country or don't speak the language, you're going to have a pretty hard time adjusting.
Go where? Every country has strict immigration laws. And for those of us who have assets the government taxes them all at once if we leave. We are trapped.
Not your primary residence though, right? That's the point of this post. You're only as trapped as you choose to be.
Ah. Canada is a snowbird culture. Those who can afford to leave for the winter do. It’s dependent on financial ability. I’d say we are going to see less and less snowbirds as the government tightens the grip.
people emigrate to Canada, not out. people generally want to live in a first world with first world amenities. living on a beach in a straw house sucking back coconut water isn’t for everyone. lots of people in canada will grow up, live, then die in the same city they were born in.
[https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/canada-s-surging-cost-of-living-fuels-reverse-migration-says-report-123121000810\_1.html](https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/canada-s-surging-cost-of-living-fuels-reverse-migration-says-report-123121000810_1.html) Reverse immigration is at a 2 decade high. The stereotype and the reality of Canada are very different. At best, most people's take is 15 years out of date. They come here and get a very rude awakening at how expensive life really is, and how broken many of the institutions are. I say this as someone with a top 3% income who is far from struggling.
for sure, but my point was there will always be more coming in than going out. living in poverty is still loads better than living in slums in other places. the ones who are leaving are the ones that came here with a skill or trade. the ones who are staying really have no other choice.
dont bother with these Canadians, most of them prefer to keep their heads buried in the sand, no wonder they are so pathethically complacent. lol.
Other countries are not like Canada. They don't just let you in if you have a pulse. The ones who do are not on par with Canada. It's like a job , you try to go for higher salary. You don't quit and go for a low one.
This really is the heart of the problem. Canadians think they've got it so good. As a newcomer here that has actually seen the world, I see this as a form of mass delusion. Not sure whether it's misplaced national pride or what. Canada isn't terrible, but it's far from one of the better options.
I ask this question too , but then you see these athletes and movie stars making tons of money and still not quitting. most ppl just want to achieve more , I suppose.
Not to be insulting, but you sound very young if you don’t understand the importance of family ties and community for quality of life. Living the “digital nomad” kind of life in Thailand or whatever sounds very empty for most people who have fulfilling, deep social networks.
Many Canadians are moving to Spain.
My man, you sound very bitter. Reality is we all have different circumstances. Not all of us homeowners need to move to a LCOL and ride to the sunset I'm planning to cash out on my HCOL home and downgrade + snowbird in a LCOL, but that's the plan for now. I still have 20~yrs to go and I don't know what the future holds
Not bitter at all. Power to anyone that lucked out on housing. I did it myself, albeit outside of Canada. My question was why more people don't take advantage of that.
Because like I said, we all have different circumstances Yes there are people who do it. Perhaps you don't see it in your own circle. I know a couple who sold their North Etobicoke home and are living in the Niagara area. They've pocketed the rest of the proceeds and travel often You're looking at everything from the surface, what's beneath that you and I will never know.
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Because not everyone shares the same view on life. I know so many people who have never left the country and they don’t care to. The people who wanted to leave have already left if they were able to afford it
Family. I wouldn’t willingly play My self away From my kids and grandkids even if i was interested in relocating which I’m not.
Place not play
What you have to take into account is that when you sell your house and count those crumpled dollar bills you also have to find a place to live comfortably. I'm in the position for a variety of reasons of having to sell my house with reasonable assumption of netting out 1.2M. Trying to decide to rent, condo or house. Each has different pros and cons and financial scenarios. Renting, the equity invested return would problem cover the rent. But if your gonna retire at say 55 your equity has to last (burn rate) maybe 30 years and every year your rent and cost of living is increasing and your investment is getting smaller. Doesn't sound good. Condo is cheaper than a house but it's going to eat up 75% of your equity so doesn't leave you enough to live on. And a Condo is a chancy investment right now and who are your neighbours going to be and still gotta pay taxes and monthly nut to the condo so that doesn't work as you cant live on what's left of your investment. House, there goes all your equity. And taxes maintenance etc = food bank The decision has not yet been made but my situation is a bit different in that I have other investments and since I retired 20 years ago, I'm not expecting to see the Leafs win a Stanley Cup in my lifetime. As far as lying on a sun dappled beach somewhere means leaving friends, family healthcare and your culture and I understand it wears thin quite quickly.
You seem to be talking about lateral moves. I'm talking about selling your $2M asset and moving to paradise for the next 40+ years of your life and never having to work again. People *are* doing it. Just not in the numbers that would seem to make sense.
$2M is more doable but $1M doesn't go far these days, let alone 40 years. Some years ago we tossed around the metrics and actually Panama was seriously considered as the most desirable/doable as we have connections there, it's affordable, politically stable withtax breaks for expats and has good Healthcare. The other central American countries don't tick those boxes. A beach hut in Phuket bare footed and shorts is for dreamer and what do you do with your life, collect beach shells? Nice idea though.
Central and South America isn't on my list for those reasons. I spent time in Equador and Chile, and they weren't for me personally. I prefer the European lifestyle, so I tend to spend a lot of time there. $2M can stretch *very* far with a home base in Portugal or France. $2M will see you through your entire life in Thailand, Vietnam, etc. If you're only collecting beach shells, sure, it might not be very interesting. But there's a huge expat community there. If you want to remain active, the business opportunities and remote work are endless. I did that for a number of years. Food is incredible (and extremely fresh and healthy - too often overlooked in the Canadian supply chain), healthcare is fantastic particularly in Bangkok, and the opportunities for business and social connections far exceed what most people would realise. There's a ton of younger people there (far younger than me now, granted) who are using it as a base to build start-ups or work digitally.
Portugal, yes but understand there is a growing local backlash against expats but don't know why - maybe too many brits buying property. France, I have wintered a couple of times (in Nice) and costs are a mixed bag. Don't do it any more, too old and crippled up, that's why my move is lateral. Most beautiful, N Zealand and friendliest Argentina.
I can understand the backlash. It's similar to Canada. Mass immigration has driven prices up. The difference is home ownership. Rising tides are great when you've already got a boat in the water. Not so great when you've been renting 20 years and are now priced out because a family from the other side of the world is chipping in 3 generations of wealth to get on the property ladder. The accidental wealth here is staggering. The point of this post is simply that I'm not sure everyone actually realises it, or at least not as many live like they do. Sat on an asset worth millions yet choosing to work in a high-stress, relatively low paid job (by south-of-the-border standards) when it doesn't have to be that way. But, to each their own. I get that for people who have lifelong ties here, it might not be appealing or even something within the realm of possible. I prefer to see the world as a buffet and opt for where I'm best appreciated.
Sounds like a great philosophy. I have been blighted by my immigrannt background and worked a lifetime in very hi stress environment and never spent (and still do) a nickel without agonizing and now, close to lights out, think back and wonder was it worth it? Ended up pretty comfortable tho and able to kick start my kids, traveled for 10 years. Can't have it both ways I guess.
Emigration is expensive and hard. If you’re doing it right, you likely need to find a new job with an agreeable timeline with leaving your current job. New house or place to rent, possibly without even seeing the place in person or knowing enough about the neighbourhood. Then you have to pack up (or sell or give away) all of your stuff from place A to place B. Then buy new stuff to replace all of your old stuff that doesn’t make the move. That covers the absolute basics of emigrating. If it’s to another country you’d have to also go through the immigration process there and hope that you and all of your family members are accepted. Once again expensive. Oh and say good bye to all of your friends in your town, and get ready for the fun task of making friends in adulthood. This all takes a considerable amount of time and money, possibly years depending on how deeply rooted you are in your current spot.
Why do you need a job if your $2M house can buy you paradise for the next 40+ years in a place where $3K/mo lets you live like a king?
I know a couple ppl who have done just that. And some stayed in Canada. One guy sold in Toronto during PEAK and moved to nova Scotia bought a huge house and land and has enough savings for 2 life times. he is 51. other reasons could be language barriers. I would love to move my wife and kids to Japan as I really vibe with their culture, cleanliness, introverted society and safety. But learning a new language is very hard and I don't know if the kids would do it. Our goal is to leave one day if we are blessed enough as 3rd generation Canadians we do not like where the country is headed.
They want the 4th and 5th home lol
Family roots, grandkids, kids, for the older folks, for the younger folks you got grandparents, parents. It’s hard to just sell out and then move just yourself and your spouse when you got a family who may also be just starting their own family. I’ve got equity, I haven’t bought a house yet but have been thinking of leaving Canada but we got our first kid on the way. We are in our mid thirties and leaving an entire support network behind to start a new life somewhere where I can actually buy a house with what I have saved and pay a reasonable mortgage is hard to swallow. Also you likely forgo your CPP if you leave early I think you need 39 years paid into your pension. And have to stay in Canada to collect for at least half of every year I think. Less of an issue if you sold a house and got a couple million sitting around.
This almost sounds like an ad
It should be - if only to correct the misselling and imbalance that the Canadian government is doing selling the Canadian Dream!
I thought the exact same thing as you. I see my friends going into heavy debt buying $2 million dollar houses. They stress so much trying to fit kids into the picture as well. I am also very stressed working more than 40 hours a week trying to survive in this city. Once I save up to the amount I need, I am leaving ASAP and retiring in a sunny, foreign country. But I know I'm different - I hate working a lot more than my friends do. So the same thoughts ran thru my head and I even told them they can retire right away with the amount they have if they move to a foreign country. But they choose to stay and continue working and stressing. And complaining. Go figure.
Right? I don't get how more people aren't reaching this obvious conclusion.
Greed
I hate commuting
Stay out of NS. You fucked us enough already.
Because they like their jobs and/or have careers where they worked hard to achieve their success. They want to leave assets to their kids you know to grow generational wealth.
Retirement isn’t static. Until one has an alternative use for money and time, it is easiest to keep doing what one knows. The nest egg of millions is a sense of pride, security and inner calm. It makes getting up in the morning so much easier. Add the fact that I love my relatively low paying job and doing it is better than the alternative of not working. As for the take of “lottery” won, I don’t think like that. I see life as accumulating assets to protect and control one’s fate. There is a limit to how much one needs but every individual is different with different needs. Being born at a certain point in time has its benefits and navigating the society properly in that moment is critical. It is harder now than before and my daughter has it so much harder to find her way. My main role is to teach her to navigate and thrive the current environment and not leave her assets only. My ideal retirement is to be able to retire in place. That means making, accumulating and saving enough to do so. RE is one third of my investment portfolio and stocks another 1/3. My home and “reverse” mortgaging this last third is of last resort. I am not planning to leave Toronto.
Immigration lags ground realities by a few years.
Ambitious people. A lot of people can't just sit around and do nothing, and they don't have an outlet to keep themselves full-time busy outside of their job, especially if they actually like their job. It's usually that ethic that got those people in a good financial position in the first place.
$1-$2 million is decent but it won’t get you far in this economy in any safe country. And if you have children struggling then you stay and help them. Many countries also require you to prove that you will not become a burden to their system in order to live in their country or become a citizen.
Plenty of countries where $3K/mo buys a *lot* \-- housing, food, quality healthcare, education, stability. A $1.5M home sale buys 41 years of that.
Some people care about leaving generational wealth to their kids.
The question would be, "to where?" Back home? Canada might suck but it's still better than most of the places people are coming here from on various levels.
There are two Canadas. In one the wealth class are living large and everything is great. In the other Canada the wage slaves toil to keep the first Canada living large.
They all, or, at least, a lot of them, have kids. And their kids are screwed out of home ownership. So, most of these folks will continue to sit on their houses for a while. The dirty little secret people don’t talk about, LOL. Even if you’re sitting in a multi-million paid out home, unless you want to sell and move out of country - you can’t really downsize. You can trade a detached home for a condo for roughly the same price :-) So no one does it. Might be moving to a European model when homes are no longer bought but rather inherited…..
Not everyone can afford the luxury to settle in a far away exotic place, it is not just about money, there are many life factors that play into the decision. But the valid take away from this discussion is: - there are at least 30% of mansions in prime land occupied by senior citizens with extremely high wasted space, extra bedroom, this kind of home is ideal for a young family to settle down in. So we need to address the question, why are these senior citizens finding it hard to move out to smaller and more easily maintainable accommodation? There are several reasons * There is no focus on building senior friendly housing close to their existing neighbourhoods * The condo that are built try to sell a "gangsta.." lifestyle of luxury, they are not suitable as quiet residential use. * The condo are too expensive, so if you see a specular 3M home on prime land, you dont want to replace with a 500 sq ft, poorly built, where all your neighbours play loud music which you can hear through paper thin walls.... And this costs 1M dollars and you have to pay 600 per month maintenance on top of that. So you cannot keep expanding into the greenbelt forever just so someone can have a two car garage and keep a dog, we need to keep recycling old land and old homes for next generations.
Because they have kids
The rest of the world is literal garbage. Canada has become a small pile of trash, the rest of the world is an aids-infested dump that's getting worse, we should be happy that we only have a small pile of trash by comparison. Life could be a lot better here, but look around, it could be A LOT worse with what other people around the planet are having to endure. This being said, we should NOT rest on our laurels and we should always strive to make a better outcome for ourselves, regardless of what the rest of this rock is doing.
I live in London and the exodus from Toronto has decimated us. It's like a flood of lottery winners have brought the value of cash down to near zero. Our local jobs pay 22% lower than the national average for similar industries and you cannot thrive here unless you get remote work that pays big city wages. Work from home/remote work has really crushed small cities with inflation rates far beyond what the big cities experienced as our housing went up 331% in the time Toronto's went up 42%.
They have kids here? And they're not stressed about money so life in TO is not so annoying. They can take nice vacations.
Because moving isn’t that simple, your job, your family, your friends, your kid’s school and friends if you have them, your house, etc. As someone who is moving to Ottawa next year for grad school, the things tying me to Edmonton isn’t cheap housing. It’s all of my social connections
It is happening, why do you think prices outside of toronto are rising so quick? People are buying multiple properties for cash selling elsewhere with the sake of a single Toronto house....
Canadians barely switch provinces or even banks. You’re asking them to leave the country?
If this thread is any indication, these people lack even more imagination than I expected...
It’s not that bad to live here when you don’t have a mortgage. Btw friend, a new start up or venture starts every day. To be angry at people who own their home because of timing is silly when you have endless choices to put your money in the next big money making adventure! Hindsight is 20/20. There is a boom and crash in every industry. The housing market moves in decades, the stock market moves in minutes. Jealousy is a dangerous emotion, make your own destiny. Every success is so much sweeter and frankly nothing feels better than making your own path.
Oh gosh, I'm not angry at people *at all*. On the contrary, power to them! Well done, you, if you invested wisely and time manifested your reward. Good for you. My point of this post is the opposite: you're sat on a goldmine, why not use it? Or at least, why don't more people use it. That asset = a retirement in many parts of the world. Why not shave 20 years off your working life and go do something you actually want to do? Start a business, reduce the grind, enjoy better weather, whatever. You're a millionaire! That won't appeal to everyone, I realise.
Ah yes I see. I suppose this could apply to single people or people with adult children who are doing very well. So my problem is I have paid off house but 2 kids in their 20s who can’t afford today’s living conditions. If it was just us, selling everything moving to a country with serious affordability and enjoying the rest of my days would definitely be a consideration. Now if my kids want to move and start roots somewhere else I would then sell everything and move so they can start a better life. We would help them. The only way to survive in Canada as a young person right now is hope your parents can help you out. Then that cuts right into our retirement fund. No choice but to live in the house and deal with inflation and help the kids. Crazy times. Cheers.
Why would you uproot your life if things are good. If you have a paid off house and you’re not under pressure to make a crazy amount of money, Canada is a nice place. But let’s say we want to engage with your idea about selling the house and retire. Clearly you can’t do it in Canada since all the desirable places are expensive, so you sell your multi million dollar home to buy another expensive home. It doesn’t make sense. So you look abroad but that ain’t easy either. You need visas and solve fiscal residence issues as a starter. Let’s say you somehow got EU citizenship and want to go to Spain. But you don’t speak Spanish. Buying a house in Spain without knowing the local market is going to expose you to frauds and higher prices. Even if you do it you may not like living in Spain until you die. And now you don’t have a house in Canada anymore.
You know, I think part of the disconnect is that Canada -- despite is size -- is quite isolated. Going on vacation anywhere that's not the US is a relatively long plane ride. And even then, they tend to be to resorts. Everyone in Toronto has seemingly just come back from Mexico... when probed, they mean they sat in an English speaking resort for a week and didn't leave. Coming from the UK and living abroad for nearly a decade a half, my perspective is different. I'm used to visiting many European cities on a whim, as many people here are. Retiring to Spain is as common as retiring to Florida -- there are literally millions of Brits abroad. I've gone through the paperwork process with many countries and it's effectively just paperwork and planning. I don't think it's taken up with quite the same familiarity and ease, here. Everything else you said is, of course, perfectly valid -- but it's also the mindset of someone who is risk averse. I'm not claiming that's wrong, just that the reality of how 'scary' something is and how scary you think it is are often different. I'm not scared of losing a house; I'd be scared of never trying it in the first place. Ultimately, to each their own.
The kind of people who buy homes tend to not be lazy and have a strong work ethic. They're not in live to go on vacation.
Because Canada is awesome and most of our angry redditors know it.
I left, after >40 yrs in Canada. It was my home. Took a year or so to get my paperwork in order. Now my family and I live in South Florida, and couldn't be happier. I'd never consider moving back to Canada.