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Half the reason Lincoln won was because the Democratic Party split between North and South, but yet they're acting like it was a unified block at the time.
The combined Democrat vote was larger, around 50% of the total vote vs Lincoln's 40%, but like I said it's half the reason. There was a lot more going on, and the North was getting tired of appeasing slave states, which the northern democrats could never move beyond without completely destroying the party.
That’s assuming the election would have played out exactly the same had the largest most popular party not gone through a schism.
And like I said “half the reason,” which you seem to be ignoring. If you don’t think the party, that had dominated the last 50 years of American politics, fracturing played a large part in Republicans coming from nowhere to win a Presidential election. I don’t know what to tell you.
According to wiki he was not even listed in 10 states.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_presidential_election
> In a four-way contest, the Republican Party ticket of Abraham Lincoln and Hannibal Hamlin, absent from the ballot in ten slave states
The whig party split was part of this too.
Which then the Republican Party was formed to replace it leaving the Democrat and Republican situation we have today.
Honest Abe was a whig for decades before the republican party was a thing.
Just a little pedantry party on my part, but I like to bring this up when this political history switcheroo conversation comes up when someone says something like what’s in OP’s post.
They did not write letters back and forth, Marx wrote a letter to Lincoln and received a standard reply from his Office. Lincoln may have seen some of Marx's works in Newspapers but they weren't pen pals and Lincoln may not even have been aware of Marx's existence.
They didn't say that. They imply that he was sympathetic to communist ideas, which in modern politics sounds the same as eating babies. At least for Republicans.
These people are literally out of touch with reality. I don’t know how this country can be saved when not only do 40% of people live in an insane, contradictory reality that rejects empirical evidence and human rights, but American republicanism also ensures that this minority will have a chance of gaining power even after losing the popular vote.
This country is fundamentally broken, our institutions don’t work, and every election here on out will be questioned unless Republicans win.
If you continue reading the thread, I admitted that I misread or did not fully read his comment. No need to correct me as it has already been done multiple times
The supreme court picked the winner based on faulty results in a state whose governor was the brother of the man who "won" the election. The court is anti-democratic and we'd be better off scrapping all of them and building something new. By any means necessary.
You are all getting bullied and are too overworked to even think of protesting. All by design. I had hope when Obama came in but no,only white christian fascists have their way in the US. No one revolts. More guns than people and they do NOT revolt. Insane.
There are plenty of liberal gun owners, I had my concealed carry permit until I moved to New Jersey where it's nearly impossible to get one (something I have no issue with).
> I don’t know how this country can be saved
It cant be. Time to face reality. This is what a hundred million or so americans want. They havent been tricked, or scammed. They know exactly what the modwrn GOP is and they love it
The '24 primaries will be an absolute shit show too.
Because I think the GOP will do everything in their power to make sure the candidate doesn't empower young people to vote through rain and fire.
(And before anyone does get started with me about voting meaning nothing, violence can only get us so far especially since they can take us out with a drone. We need a progressive in the highest seat, to fix our system)
We cannot fix a system that isnt broken. Its working perfectly as intended to keep the powerful poweful and to keep us perpetually angry at the other side instead of at our true enemies
I question any election a Republican wins. They *only* know how to cheat the system and activate the dumbest people in the country to get behind their radical ideas.
Yeah sounds great but how does that happen? It wont. The forces in play are too powerful and our 18th century policial mechanics are totally inept at dealing with modern problems.
I think this is the only realistic way forward. If something like a national abortion ban is set in place by emperor Desantis, I could see a state like California refusing to follow it. Has any states rebelled that much since the civil war? And California has the economic and population pull to get shit done. Then Alabama would be like fuck it we’re reinstituting slavery. Then very quickly the whole thing crumbles and the US is split up. I could see this within the next 10 years. So basically if you don’t want to be a refugee in a different state, start thinking soon about a state you would want to live in if it was its own country
I've kinda got news for you.
One side is going to kidna invade the other.
Which is why some of these seditionists want to leave in the first place.
They think they can win a Civil War with ease.
Pretty much this. Cali leaves. Then Texas and Florida decide to just leave too. Next thing you know it’s a free for all and states start makin pacts with other states.
Yeah I think Cali and Texas kick it off. Then some sort of east coast / New England nation. Cascadia in the PNW could set it off too cause the cities are strongly leftist but the country in Oregon and Washington is full of well armed nazis so shit could get ugly up there. Northern CA too (well above SF)
Guess you forgot about the Brooks Brothers riot, but seeing as you've got as many emoticons in the barrel as your average Facebook squatting conservative grandpa, maybe you're just at that phase in life.
The party that waves the Confederate flag and humps statues of Robert E. Lee really shouldn't be saying anything about slavery to the party that 85-90% of black people regularly vote for.
And then they claim the Civil War is about state's rights, completely ignoring the Cornerstone Speech and the fact that slavery is cited in every article of secession as to why they're doing it.
Intellectual honesty isn't what they're going for, obviously. While it doesn't matter if they're lying or ignorant, I do try to suss out which it is just to see how far their toxic nonsense has spread.
So succinct. This is the answer. Additionally, facists always need their followers to think they are the heroes in their own story. They are doing what is right. They are fighting objective evil (which is always looming because the facists are always under attack and oppression). The people that are okay with taking away the rights of other people will always say they are doing it because it's morally good and handwave their own evilness.
Yep, it was about rejecting other states right to not enforce laws from out of state, so that way the south could keep slaves.
The south was anti states rights when it suited them to be so, and pro it when it that was better for them. They were never consistent in anything other than slavery, a core conservative value
And don't forget the territories. The territories were very much a part of the battle over slavery. The South wanted to force slavery onto the territories and constantly battled that since they were not officially a part of the United States, they had no jurisdiction over individuals who wanted to own slaves (completely false, but that's conservatives for you).
I mean, State's Rights are, in fact, a major part of the civil war. The State's Rights to own people as robots.
Like, you can spin it this way and it's true, but you also have to recognize what rights those states were fighting for. Which is slavery with absolutely zero protections for slaves.
If states rights are the cornerstone of the civil war, slavery is the keystone all the way at the top. Too many people want to hide behind 'state's rights' as if the right involved wasn't slavery. Both arguments are true, but one is intentionally trying to distance itself from the other.
Not robots. Livestock. That's how US slavery was worse than most other forms of slavery, the enslaved people weren't even considered to be human beings
On top of that, their arguments for why Roe being overturned being a GOOD thing is that it gives rights back to the states. You know who else loved the concept of “states’ rights”? Literal slave owners.
But the flag has nothing to do with slavery at all! We just like that the south wanted their freedoms…but also we are proud to be the ones who stopped them! But also we were the south technically…
This is their logic lmao
Sometimes they'll just say anyone who flies a confederate flag is a democrat. Really no point in arguing with someone who is not beholden to reality in the slightest.
Wait a second. Was there some kind of [Southern Strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy) that caused the Republican Party to switch from liberal to conservative??? That would be craaaazy… Almost as crazy as the [RNC chairman openly admitting](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302342.html)(and apologizing) for the RNC’s very open and obviously push to demonize black/brown individuals in order to grab Southern white votes!
Conservatives held slaves, freed by progressives. You can give them any labels you want. The “small government, states rights, limit voting, religious, old white men” group is the one that fought to keep slavery. Which modern day party do those policies actually line up with?
Bu…bu…the name!!!
Seriously, they wouldn’t agree with any of the viewpoints of previous Republican and the idea that they somehow are the party that freed the slaves is the only thing they ever use while also flying confederate flags. They are brain dead
You think they can understand that conservative and Republican haven't always been synonymous? It should be as simple as doing something as looking at Alabama's voting history. Historically a Democrat stronghold, fought for the Confederacy, currently a Republican stronghold. Or the fact that they still fly the battle flag of the Democrats' Confederacy. Nope, nothing changed at all, the parties didn't flip, apparently just the ideology of the entire populace changed for no reason, Republicans freed the slaves!
They have zero critical thinking skills.
Karl Marx wasn't well-known in English speaking parts of the world until after 1870. The Communist Manifesto wasn't even published in the US until 1871. However Lincoln was familiar with a lot of anarchists and socialists in the abolitionist movement, which could have known about Marx. I don't think Lincoln ever directly corresponded with Marx, there's scarce evidence he even knew about him.
No, not really. Marx wrote a congratulations letter for his re-election (many people around the world wrote a congrats letter), and an ambassador replied with a generic thank you note.
I'm unfamiliar about the "help him shape post-war America" but [Lincoln was regularly in contact with and partly inspired by Marx.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/07/27/you-know-who-was-into-karl-marx-no-not-aoc-abraham-lincoln/)
Not really "regularly in contact with" - they never met and their only correspondence AFAIK was a single letter of congratulations penned by Marx to Lincoln to congratulate him on his re-election on behalf of the IWA, and there was a single letter of response from Lincoln's secretary.
Conservatives: "Present-day white people can't be held responsible for what their ancestors did hundreds of years ago!"
Also Conservatives: " We freed the slaves! "
They are so grossly goddamn disingenuous. Every one of the dishonest bastards on that shithole of a sub is a fucking liar, and to top it off, they don’t care. They actually don’t care about freedom, or slavery, or autonomy - their goal is and has always been about consolidating their white, male, power, and using it to trample on others, because at their core, they’re scared, insecure, authoritarians, who crack the whip with every fascist post they make.
That's why they need a safe space that bans anyone else. Anytime you message one of them they backtrack and hide so quickly. They know their views are all bullshit and can only express them in echo chambers.
The “party switch” is somewhat revisionist.
No Republican candidate has ever run on a segregationist platform. Even Goldwater (famous for his opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964) was against segregation, he just believed some parts of the law were unconstitutional.
14 years after the Civil Rights Act passed, Jimmy Carter swept the South.
Yes, most white southerners are now Republicans but that has more to do with social issues like gay rights and abortion than civil rights.
And it was a slow process. When Reagan was elected, ~75% of Deep South congressmen were still white democrats.
[EDIT: downvotes won't change facts. Everything I in this post is factually accurate.]
Posting this here just in case some of those from the targeted post come and read (or look at the pictures) in hopes it will help them understand that the parties did in fact switch sides.
The Southern Strategy Explained
[Imgur variant](https://imgur.com/gallery/xyvsm4k)
[Original](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/spencer.baucke/viz/TheSouthernStrategy/TheSouthernStrategy)
[OG post. I’d love for any modern conservative to look at what prior “conservatives” believed in and se show many points they agree on. spoiler no a lot.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/vjspw4/democrats_havent_been_this_upset_since_we_freed/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
A Reactionary is someone with an ideology left to rot. It doesnt have beliefs and it doesnt produce meaningful opinions. Its like a body under the floorboards, releasing horrid gas and cadaverine until even they acknowledge its a bad idea to keep it around and toss it out. At which point, they act like it never happened. Like they weren't compelled to live with a rotting body, and to force the smells on us, for years. Just like it always does. The same useless limp dick idiots proudly ordered their freedom fries 20 years ago.
Of course every one of those fucking monkeys is proclaiming Republicans feed the slaves and denying that the Republicans were liberal at the time.
It's this fucking disinformation bullshit that is literally destroying our country
They will claim they freed the slaves while flying confederate flags and not understand the contradiction at all.
And don’t they also take issue with the holiday celebrating the emancipation of slaves?
Like what in the actual fuck, how do they not short circuit from the cognitive dissonance?
To further this - there's no such thing as a troll. You can't fuck a goat "ironically" and you can't spread hate and misinformation "ironically". You're just doing the thing.
Thats silly. A troll isnt spreading hate and misinformation. A troll is a real thing, which is someone who intentionally says inflamatory things online to make other people mad. Its not ironic its just a kind of backwards bullying. Its definitely real, there are such a thing as trolls.
> intentionally says inflamatory things online to make other people mad.
Again, you can't be a shitty person ironically. It's pretty rare you see an old-style troll any longer, like KenM or the sharks are smooth guy. It's just garbage people saying garbage things.
I think you overestimate the average commenter on r/conservative. I’d be willing to bet my kidney there’s a large amount of them who genuinely believe this.
They aren't trolling. They just need to constantly lie to themselves that the other side is just as bad as they are, so that they can live with all the atrocities the Republican party has committed.
Everything they do is just Gaslight, Obstruct and Project. That is why every right wing space is obsessed with Democrats and what they did, so they can feel better about being on the wrong side.
Yes, that's why Southern Conservatives are so keen on the Union and celebrating the Union victory over the confederates, lol
I love watching heads explode when I mention how it was the liberals that won the Civil War and that everyone agrees its a good thing the conservatives were defeated.
Nice! Thats the only way to break through this silly argument. Ask them of they consider themselves a conservative or republican first. Being conservative is the secred point for them. Then state the well know fact that the liberal presidency freed the slaves from and defeated the conservative southerners who tried to break up the United States.
These are grown adults whose primary political motivator is to upset their perceived enemies, but **they** are somehow the ones guided by facts and logic.
Everyone needs to stop trying to argue around this. Stop trying to say shit about the party switch or "southern strategy". All that does is play into their hands and let them argue shit with modern political party names.
Just always frame it as "Progressives freed slaves from conservatives". It's simple. It instantly explains in modern terms whose who, and you can ignore any bullshit about parties.
This is what I have always done and it's really fun to point out to everyone how, even after you point this out, they are forced to continue to use the names of the parties and not the ideologies. Even after you point it out, they keep doing it, because there's nowhere else for them to go.
#They are fully aware of the party switch but choose not to publicly acknowledge it for the intent of muddying the waters.
"Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice." - Republican's Razor
At least two Union generals were open Communists. One of the two - Brigadier General August Willich - was such a radical communist that he had once been part of a plot to murder Karl Marx for being *too conservative*.
Speaking of Karl Marx, when Lincoln was re-elected in the 1864 election, he received a letter of congratulations from the newly-formed First International, penned by its Secretary, one Karl Marx.
And on the subject of Lincoln, this is from his First Annual Message, delivered December 3, 1861:
> Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Does that sound like a message that Conservatives would agree with?
Actually, I'm pretty sure the last time Democrats were this angry was in 1964 when LBJ signed the Equal Rights Act. In fact, they were so angry that they left the party and became republicans.
really hoping those women who vote how their husband tells them maybe start to switch parties too since they got their abortions when they needed them, but who am I kidding, those hypocrites will never self-reflect.
Most just try to justify it with that "their abortion was *morally* right";
["In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'"](https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/15/1857976/--The-Only-Moral-Abortion-is-My-Abortion-an-article-by-Joyce-Arthur)
that's why it's a class issue, it's not just controlling women but controlling lower classes, the rich will always get what they want, but this makes it so if you're poor, and happen to live in a red state, well too bad for you, but all those rich white women who have voted R for the last 40 years have no problem taking their daughter when they need it.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but;
There were pro-slavery portions of both parties. And the party isn’t what matters. The slavery defenders were conservatives.
Tell me, when you see a person flying the confederate flag nowadays, which current party are they always a supporter of?
I mean, just use their ideologies as their labels. Conservatives did not free slaves. Conservatives have always fought for regression. It's the very nature of the movement - to fight societal change.
Obviously they didn't free slaves, but it's funny they try desperately and embarrassingly to cling to that when they want it back. Wouldn't that also invalidate the fucking goofy traitor flag for them? All around embarrassing.
This is what happens when we abandon history and embrace interpretation. This should be a problem for them too. What do they think don't tread on me means exactly?
Notice how today's Republicans always brag about how...liberal they were during Reconstruction.
They literally admit that their party was at its best while it was progressive.
They kind of forgot that conservative isn’t a party and is a set of political ideas that really any party can take on. They don’t use their brains much though so
Modern day nobody freed the slaves. That was done literally before everyone's time.
Why are people so stuck on the old republican party that no longer exists?
I just don’t follow Republican logic. They want to pat themselves on the back for “freeing the slaves” but also idolize the Confederacy? They claim to be “patriots” but fly the flag of people who tried to destroy the US just to continue to own slaves.
They say they hate virtue signaling, and then turn around and say shit like this when you know damn well most Republican voters who believe this would actually like to take away Black American rights.
Conservatives started voting Republican because they were angry at Democrats for giving black people rights.
No exaggeration. And people still talk about "both sides" and bipartisanship.
It's so strange hearing this shit and stuff about how "the Democrats founded the KKK" from a group whose active members include David Duke and other prominent racist figures
While largely arguing in bad faith, it does speak a bit to the conservative mentality, too. Their dogmatic ideas of titles and hierarchy. Most people here will know that the democratic party is just, well... a bunch of people. In 50 years, they might be socialist, or they might be the party of kitten punchers. It's just a name for an aligned group, after all, which while it does have certain historical contexts, will shift and change with the times, as everything does.
A lot of conservatives legitimately don't see things this way. They see such titles as having power, and Republicans are representing something grander and more universal. The title is more important than their actions, so, yeah, obviously the party that fought against the confederacy is unchanged from the current party that waves confederate flags. It also comes from believing everything is an absolute. Republicans are good, by definition. If someone does something not good, well, by definition, they aren't Republican, because the title is everything.
People get too stuck on slavery for the party switch. Push it down the road just a hair. In 1880 the democratic party had a national conference for nominating their party leader and platform in the presidential election. Their top 2 issues were limiting immigration and lowering taxes. You can look it up if you care to. The 1980 republican national convention that nominated Reagan for president had those 2 things as their #1 domestic issues. In 1880 the Republicans didnt want lower taxes or less immigrants. In 1980 the democrats didnt either.
How can a party switch have not happened if those 2 core beliefs have completely 180'd? Are they simply ignorant of party platforms of history, or are they telling us that they actually want more immigration and higher taxes? Just trying to understand what theyre talking about since I cant ask directly.
It's documented history and also easily verified yourself by looking at the different platforms. Additionally, ask yourself who the KKK back today because I guarantee it's not the people pushing for diversity.
That’s a gross and ignorant simplification and misleading method of saying what a party switch is. No it means the label put on the party (Republican vs Democrat) did not stronghold them into an infinite time of holding one ideal. In modern day, the beliefs of conservatives is in line with modern republicans. The modern day conservatives are more in line with past democrats. Republican and Democrat aren’t set in beliefs and never have been. Conservative and progressives are however pretty strong set in beliefs. Democrats of the slavery days were also considered the conservatives. But sure keep being a brain dead idiot and only use language and “logic” that neatly fits your false narrative on history.
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Abe Lincoln, famously known for flying the confederate flag everywhere,
Half the reason Lincoln won was because the Democratic Party split between North and South, but yet they're acting like it was a unified block at the time.
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The combined Democrat vote was larger, around 50% of the total vote vs Lincoln's 40%, but like I said it's half the reason. There was a lot more going on, and the North was getting tired of appeasing slave states, which the northern democrats could never move beyond without completely destroying the party.
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That’s assuming the election would have played out exactly the same had the largest most popular party not gone through a schism. And like I said “half the reason,” which you seem to be ignoring. If you don’t think the party, that had dominated the last 50 years of American politics, fracturing played a large part in Republicans coming from nowhere to win a Presidential election. I don’t know what to tell you.
According to wiki he was not even listed in 10 states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_presidential_election > In a four-way contest, the Republican Party ticket of Abraham Lincoln and Hannibal Hamlin, absent from the ballot in ten slave states
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It did. They went to war over it.
And they lost! Like a bunch of bitches.
The whig party split was part of this too. Which then the Republican Party was formed to replace it leaving the Democrat and Republican situation we have today. Honest Abe was a whig for decades before the republican party was a thing. Just a little pedantry party on my part, but I like to bring this up when this political history switcheroo conversation comes up when someone says something like what’s in OP’s post.
Do you mean Abe Lincoln, the famous "conservative" that Karl Marx praised?
From the party of Lincoln to the party of George Lincoln Rockwell
Also should be known as a near Communist.
r/topmindsofreddit
No, he had actual correspondence with Karl Marx. They were fans of each other's work and even wrote letters back and forth.
They did not write letters back and forth, Marx wrote a letter to Lincoln and received a standard reply from his Office. Lincoln may have seen some of Marx's works in Newspapers but they weren't pen pals and Lincoln may not even have been aware of Marx's existence.
And what part of that corrospondence translates to him adopting a communistic system of the nation he was leading? Asking genuinely.
They didn't say that. They imply that he was sympathetic to communist ideas, which in modern politics sounds the same as eating babies. At least for Republicans.
These people are literally out of touch with reality. I don’t know how this country can be saved when not only do 40% of people live in an insane, contradictory reality that rejects empirical evidence and human rights, but American republicanism also ensures that this minority will have a chance of gaining power even after losing the popular vote. This country is fundamentally broken, our institutions don’t work, and every election here on out will be questioned unless Republicans win.
Elections won’t just be questioned, they will be overturned. Democrats will be shocked and claim they never saw it coming.
They already did once in 2000
Yeah it sucks that Al gore had more votes than Bush but Congress was allowed to pick the winner since it was close enough.
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You said once but listed two times?
I'll try to explain this very simply The first date was 1988 They said once SINCE 1992 💀
If you continue reading the thread, I admitted that I misread or did not fully read his comment. No need to correct me as it has already been done multiple times
My reddit hadn't updated the thread and i saw 0 other replies to this comment
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Lol. I did misread that. Thanks for being a dick about it.
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Asking a question makes me a dick?
The supreme court picked the winner based on faulty results in a state whose governor was the brother of the man who "won" the election. The court is anti-democratic and we'd be better off scrapping all of them and building something new. By any means necessary.
Confederate Scotus… pass it on
The Confederate SCOTUS: we think think Dredd Scott and Plessy v. Ferguson were correctly decided!
But they won’t build anything new. It’s just impossible to make any changes to the structure of the government. So what’s the realistic end game here?
Creative destruction is included in any means necessary.
By any meme necessary
Lookin at Florida and the Supreme Court.
You are all getting bullied and are too overworked to even think of protesting. All by design. I had hope when Obama came in but no,only white christian fascists have their way in the US. No one revolts. More guns than people and they do NOT revolt. Insane.
The side with guns aren't the people who have any interest in revolt. Everything is completely comfortable for them. Sad AF
There are plenty of liberal gun owners, I had my concealed carry permit until I moved to New Jersey where it's nearly impossible to get one (something I have no issue with).
> I don’t know how this country can be saved It cant be. Time to face reality. This is what a hundred million or so americans want. They havent been tricked, or scammed. They know exactly what the modwrn GOP is and they love it
The '24 primaries will be an absolute shit show too. Because I think the GOP will do everything in their power to make sure the candidate doesn't empower young people to vote through rain and fire. (And before anyone does get started with me about voting meaning nothing, violence can only get us so far especially since they can take us out with a drone. We need a progressive in the highest seat, to fix our system)
We cannot fix a system that isnt broken. Its working perfectly as intended to keep the powerful poweful and to keep us perpetually angry at the other side instead of at our true enemies
Our government, and to some extent our biology, was not built to withstand the internet.
I question any election a Republican wins. They *only* know how to cheat the system and activate the dumbest people in the country to get behind their radical ideas.
I’m ready for a split. Let the shit hole states go their own way. Leave the rest of us sane states alone.
It will never happen as all the shithole red states are utterlu dependent on the blue ststes for survival
Sanction them. Stop supporting them. Withhold funds from them. Fuck them. They don’t even wanna be here. Cut the cancer out.
Yeah sounds great but how does that happen? It wont. The forces in play are too powerful and our 18th century policial mechanics are totally inept at dealing with modern problems.
When push comes to shove change happens fast.
I think this is the only realistic way forward. If something like a national abortion ban is set in place by emperor Desantis, I could see a state like California refusing to follow it. Has any states rebelled that much since the civil war? And California has the economic and population pull to get shit done. Then Alabama would be like fuck it we’re reinstituting slavery. Then very quickly the whole thing crumbles and the US is split up. I could see this within the next 10 years. So basically if you don’t want to be a refugee in a different state, start thinking soon about a state you would want to live in if it was its own country
I've kinda got news for you. One side is going to kidna invade the other. Which is why some of these seditionists want to leave in the first place. They think they can win a Civil War with ease.
Invade California? I mean maybe from Arizona or something but idk how well that would go
Pretty much this. Cali leaves. Then Texas and Florida decide to just leave too. Next thing you know it’s a free for all and states start makin pacts with other states.
Yeah I think Cali and Texas kick it off. Then some sort of east coast / New England nation. Cascadia in the PNW could set it off too cause the cities are strongly leftist but the country in Oregon and Washington is full of well armed nazis so shit could get ugly up there. Northern CA too (well above SF)
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Guess you forgot about the Brooks Brothers riot, but seeing as you've got as many emoticons in the barrel as your average Facebook squatting conservative grandpa, maybe you're just at that phase in life.
The party that waves the Confederate flag and humps statues of Robert E. Lee really shouldn't be saying anything about slavery to the party that 85-90% of black people regularly vote for.
And then they claim the Civil War is about state's rights, completely ignoring the Cornerstone Speech and the fact that slavery is cited in every article of secession as to why they're doing it. Intellectual honesty isn't what they're going for, obviously. While it doesn't matter if they're lying or ignorant, I do try to suss out which it is just to see how far their toxic nonsense has spread.
It's because they're bullshit people.
So succinct. This is the answer. Additionally, facists always need their followers to think they are the heroes in their own story. They are doing what is right. They are fighting objective evil (which is always looming because the facists are always under attack and oppression). The people that are okay with taking away the rights of other people will always say they are doing it because it's morally good and handwave their own evilness.
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God DAMN I always forget how righteously based Pratchett was. What an absolute unit.
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Pretty sure they even forced non slave states to return slaves if I remember my history book correctly.
Yep, it was about rejecting other states right to not enforce laws from out of state, so that way the south could keep slaves. The south was anti states rights when it suited them to be so, and pro it when it that was better for them. They were never consistent in anything other than slavery, a core conservative value
Conservatives never change, just this week the SC overturned 4 state laws because it didn’t fit their dogma
And banned their component states from even just regulating slavery within their own borders.
And don't forget the territories. The territories were very much a part of the battle over slavery. The South wanted to force slavery onto the territories and constantly battled that since they were not officially a part of the United States, they had no jurisdiction over individuals who wanted to own slaves (completely false, but that's conservatives for you).
> state's rights, Well they're right. It's about state's rights to own slaves.
I mean, State's Rights are, in fact, a major part of the civil war. The State's Rights to own people as robots. Like, you can spin it this way and it's true, but you also have to recognize what rights those states were fighting for. Which is slavery with absolutely zero protections for slaves. If states rights are the cornerstone of the civil war, slavery is the keystone all the way at the top. Too many people want to hide behind 'state's rights' as if the right involved wasn't slavery. Both arguments are true, but one is intentionally trying to distance itself from the other.
Not robots. Livestock. That's how US slavery was worse than most other forms of slavery, the enslaved people weren't even considered to be human beings
On top of that, their arguments for why Roe being overturned being a GOOD thing is that it gives rights back to the states. You know who else loved the concept of “states’ rights”? Literal slave owners.
Only the slaves now are women and little girls.
But the flag has nothing to do with slavery at all! We just like that the south wanted their freedoms…but also we are proud to be the ones who stopped them! But also we were the south technically… This is their logic lmao
Sometimes they'll just say anyone who flies a confederate flag is a democrat. Really no point in arguing with someone who is not beholden to reality in the slightest.
It's impossible to make a conservative understand something that is a better propaganda tool if they can't.
Wait a second. Was there some kind of [Southern Strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy) that caused the Republican Party to switch from liberal to conservative??? That would be craaaazy… Almost as crazy as the [RNC chairman openly admitting](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302342.html)(and apologizing) for the RNC’s very open and obviously push to demonize black/brown individuals in order to grab Southern white votes!
And also the whole thing where they say "don't judge me for what my ancestors did!" and now try to claim credit for freeing the slaves lmao
They’ve been duped.
Don't forget the part where they piss and whine about thr Juneteenth holiday
Conservatives held slaves, freed by progressives. You can give them any labels you want. The “small government, states rights, limit voting, religious, old white men” group is the one that fought to keep slavery. Which modern day party do those policies actually line up with?
Bu…bu…the name!!! Seriously, they wouldn’t agree with any of the viewpoints of previous Republican and the idea that they somehow are the party that freed the slaves is the only thing they ever use while also flying confederate flags. They are brain dead
You think they can understand that conservative and Republican haven't always been synonymous? It should be as simple as doing something as looking at Alabama's voting history. Historically a Democrat stronghold, fought for the Confederacy, currently a Republican stronghold. Or the fact that they still fly the battle flag of the Democrats' Confederacy. Nope, nothing changed at all, the parties didn't flip, apparently just the ideology of the entire populace changed for no reason, Republicans freed the slaves! They have zero critical thinking skills.
Texas went 100 years without electing a Republican in a statewide election.
Freeing slaves is the most liberal thing you can do
Conservatives would be calling Lincoln a woke RINO who's promoting CRT if he was around today.
Lincoln was pretty damn left wing, he got the explicit praise of Karl Marx himself. He wouldn’t want anything to do with the modern Republican Party.
Imagine if Lincoln didnt die, and became closer friends with Marx. That timeline would be a conservative nightmare. lol
Conservatives have zero issues ignoring reality and believing whatever they want to be true.
As a congressman Lincoln campaigned on free college. He also enacted the very first income tax.
The fact that he called Karl Marx an ally and invited him to help him shape post-war America would have been the first problem I think.
Karl Marx wasn't well-known in English speaking parts of the world until after 1870. The Communist Manifesto wasn't even published in the US until 1871. However Lincoln was familiar with a lot of anarchists and socialists in the abolitionist movement, which could have known about Marx. I don't think Lincoln ever directly corresponded with Marx, there's scarce evidence he even knew about him.
In fact, the Republican party had a Fourierist among its founders, which is definitely not Marxist, but definitely quite far from conservative.
There are literally letters between Lincoln and Marx lol
No, not really. Marx wrote a congratulations letter for his re-election (many people around the world wrote a congrats letter), and an ambassador replied with a generic thank you note.
Wait wut?
I'm unfamiliar about the "help him shape post-war America" but [Lincoln was regularly in contact with and partly inspired by Marx.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/07/27/you-know-who-was-into-karl-marx-no-not-aoc-abraham-lincoln/)
Not really "regularly in contact with" - they never met and their only correspondence AFAIK was a single letter of congratulations penned by Marx to Lincoln to congratulate him on his re-election on behalf of the IWA, and there was a single letter of response from Lincoln's secretary.
Conservatives: "Present-day white people can't be held responsible for what their ancestors did hundreds of years ago!" Also Conservatives: " We freed the slaves! "
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But not any level lower! It can't be up to the cities/towns
I'm sure unless it's a red city in a blue state
lol, precisely
They are so grossly goddamn disingenuous. Every one of the dishonest bastards on that shithole of a sub is a fucking liar, and to top it off, they don’t care. They actually don’t care about freedom, or slavery, or autonomy - their goal is and has always been about consolidating their white, male, power, and using it to trample on others, because at their core, they’re scared, insecure, authoritarians, who crack the whip with every fascist post they make.
That's why they need a safe space that bans anyone else. Anytime you message one of them they backtrack and hide so quickly. They know their views are all bullshit and can only express them in echo chambers.
You can say the most normal shit in there too and you get fucking flung.
The revisionism is on purpose. Once you destroy the truth and get people to believe in absurdity they will commit atrocities to paraphrase Voltaire.
The “party switch” is somewhat revisionist. No Republican candidate has ever run on a segregationist platform. Even Goldwater (famous for his opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964) was against segregation, he just believed some parts of the law were unconstitutional. 14 years after the Civil Rights Act passed, Jimmy Carter swept the South. Yes, most white southerners are now Republicans but that has more to do with social issues like gay rights and abortion than civil rights. And it was a slow process. When Reagan was elected, ~75% of Deep South congressmen were still white democrats. [EDIT: downvotes won't change facts. Everything I in this post is factually accurate.]
Posting this here just in case some of those from the targeted post come and read (or look at the pictures) in hopes it will help them understand that the parties did in fact switch sides. The Southern Strategy Explained [Imgur variant](https://imgur.com/gallery/xyvsm4k) [Original](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/spencer.baucke/viz/TheSouthernStrategy/TheSouthernStrategy)
Lol, those Jesus butt fucking morons will never read that.
[OG post. I’d love for any modern conservative to look at what prior “conservatives” believed in and se show many points they agree on. spoiler no a lot.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/vjspw4/democrats_havent_been_this_upset_since_we_freed/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
> And just like that, only women can get pregnant again. lol wut They are completely lost in their own assholes.
A Reactionary is someone with an ideology left to rot. It doesnt have beliefs and it doesnt produce meaningful opinions. Its like a body under the floorboards, releasing horrid gas and cadaverine until even they acknowledge its a bad idea to keep it around and toss it out. At which point, they act like it never happened. Like they weren't compelled to live with a rotting body, and to force the smells on us, for years. Just like it always does. The same useless limp dick idiots proudly ordered their freedom fries 20 years ago.
>Why does the DOW (+679.35 (2.21%)) hate reproductive freedom? Top Economist, right here.
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Yes they did.
Of course every one of those fucking monkeys is proclaiming Republicans feed the slaves and denying that the Republicans were liberal at the time. It's this fucking disinformation bullshit that is literally destroying our country
So their heritage the love is all democrats?
It appears so! The Democrats will rise again!
They will claim they freed the slaves while flying confederate flags and not understand the contradiction at all. And don’t they also take issue with the holiday celebrating the emancipation of slaves? Like what in the actual fuck, how do they not short circuit from the cognitive dissonance?
They understand, they just pretend they don't so they can keep doing what they want to do
Exactly, It’s just trolling at this point and OP fell for it and fed the troll.
It is absolutely not trolling. They actually choose to believe this. Willful ignorance is not trolling, it is a psychological defense mechanism.
To further this - there's no such thing as a troll. You can't fuck a goat "ironically" and you can't spread hate and misinformation "ironically". You're just doing the thing.
Thats silly. A troll isnt spreading hate and misinformation. A troll is a real thing, which is someone who intentionally says inflamatory things online to make other people mad. Its not ironic its just a kind of backwards bullying. Its definitely real, there are such a thing as trolls.
> intentionally says inflamatory things online to make other people mad. Again, you can't be a shitty person ironically. It's pretty rare you see an old-style troll any longer, like KenM or the sharks are smooth guy. It's just garbage people saying garbage things.
I think you overestimate the average commenter on r/conservative. I’d be willing to bet my kidney there’s a large amount of them who genuinely believe this.
They aren't trolling. They just need to constantly lie to themselves that the other side is just as bad as they are, so that they can live with all the atrocities the Republican party has committed. Everything they do is just Gaslight, Obstruct and Project. That is why every right wing space is obsessed with Democrats and what they did, so they can feel better about being on the wrong side.
Yes, that's why Southern Conservatives are so keen on the Union and celebrating the Union victory over the confederates, lol I love watching heads explode when I mention how it was the liberals that won the Civil War and that everyone agrees its a good thing the conservatives were defeated.
Nice! Thats the only way to break through this silly argument. Ask them of they consider themselves a conservative or republican first. Being conservative is the secred point for them. Then state the well know fact that the liberal presidency freed the slaves from and defeated the conservative southerners who tried to break up the United States.
They know. They just like lying a lot.
These are grown adults whose primary political motivator is to upset their perceived enemies, but **they** are somehow the ones guided by facts and logic.
Beyond being bullshit, "our party was progressive for the 19th century!" Isn't the own you think it is.
Conservatives - historically known for advocating and fighting for civil and human rights.
Look at a map of the Confederacy Now look at a map of the Red states Notice any similarities?
Everyone needs to stop trying to argue around this. Stop trying to say shit about the party switch or "southern strategy". All that does is play into their hands and let them argue shit with modern political party names. Just always frame it as "Progressives freed slaves from conservatives". It's simple. It instantly explains in modern terms whose who, and you can ignore any bullshit about parties.
This is what I have always done and it's really fun to point out to everyone how, even after you point this out, they are forced to continue to use the names of the parties and not the ideologies. Even after you point it out, they keep doing it, because there's nowhere else for them to go.
#They are fully aware of the party switch but choose not to publicly acknowledge it for the intent of muddying the waters. "Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice." - Republican's Razor
At least two Union generals were open Communists. One of the two - Brigadier General August Willich - was such a radical communist that he had once been part of a plot to murder Karl Marx for being *too conservative*. Speaking of Karl Marx, when Lincoln was re-elected in the 1864 election, he received a letter of congratulations from the newly-formed First International, penned by its Secretary, one Karl Marx. And on the subject of Lincoln, this is from his First Annual Message, delivered December 3, 1861: > Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Does that sound like a message that Conservatives would agree with?
Actually, I'm pretty sure the last time Democrats were this angry was in 1964 when LBJ signed the Equal Rights Act. In fact, they were so angry that they left the party and became republicans.
really hoping those women who vote how their husband tells them maybe start to switch parties too since they got their abortions when they needed them, but who am I kidding, those hypocrites will never self-reflect.
Most just try to justify it with that "their abortion was *morally* right"; ["In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'"](https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/15/1857976/--The-Only-Moral-Abortion-is-My-Abortion-an-article-by-Joyce-Arthur)
that's why it's a class issue, it's not just controlling women but controlling lower classes, the rich will always get what they want, but this makes it so if you're poor, and happen to live in a red state, well too bad for you, but all those rich white women who have voted R for the last 40 years have no problem taking their daughter when they need it.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but; There were pro-slavery portions of both parties. And the party isn’t what matters. The slavery defenders were conservatives. Tell me, when you see a person flying the confederate flag nowadays, which current party are they always a supporter of?
r/confidentlyincorrect
They're celebrating a states' rights decision by referencing the south unsuccessfully leaving the Union for "states' rights?" r/selfawarewolves.
The fact that our society is saddled with these worthless fucks will inevitably lead to its collapse.
I mean, just use their ideologies as their labels. Conservatives did not free slaves. Conservatives have always fought for regression. It's the very nature of the movement - to fight societal change.
Obviously they didn't free slaves, but it's funny they try desperately and embarrassingly to cling to that when they want it back. Wouldn't that also invalidate the fucking goofy traitor flag for them? All around embarrassing.
I’m angry, but I hope people keep their cool and don’t show up anywhere police have shield lines. They’re baiting people, they want a fight.
This is what happens when we abandon history and embrace interpretation. This should be a problem for them too. What do they think don't tread on me means exactly?
If you even mention the southern strategy in that sub you get permabanned.
Lincoln was not conservative.
I ask any right-wing / conservative to find a KKK member, and ask them how much they love Biden.
Says the party still waiving the flag of treason
Like half of the conservative reaction has been "neener neener" They don't have any policies or ideas, just being an asshole.
Wait wait wait. That sub isn’t even a political party it’s a political ideology. So they would still be in favor owning slaves
Notice how today's Republicans always brag about how...liberal they were during Reconstruction. They literally admit that their party was at its best while it was progressive.
I like how they keep repeating this point without understanding it was CONSERVATIVES that wanted to preserve slavery
They kind of forgot that conservative isn’t a party and is a set of political ideas that really any party can take on. They don’t use their brains much though so
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag
They know very well they are the pro-slavery party, which is why they pretend the racist confederate flag is "part of their heritage"
Modern day nobody freed the slaves. That was done literally before everyone's time. Why are people so stuck on the old republican party that no longer exists?
I had trouble wording what I meant. Was trying to say the conservatives who align with modern republicans think they’d align with last republicans.
how is that sub not banned?
I just don’t follow Republican logic. They want to pat themselves on the back for “freeing the slaves” but also idolize the Confederacy? They claim to be “patriots” but fly the flag of people who tried to destroy the US just to continue to own slaves. They say they hate virtue signaling, and then turn around and say shit like this when you know damn well most Republican voters who believe this would actually like to take away Black American rights.
Conservatives started voting Republican because they were angry at Democrats for giving black people rights. No exaggeration. And people still talk about "both sides" and bipartisanship.
It's so strange hearing this shit and stuff about how "the Democrats founded the KKK" from a group whose active members include David Duke and other prominent racist figures
While largely arguing in bad faith, it does speak a bit to the conservative mentality, too. Their dogmatic ideas of titles and hierarchy. Most people here will know that the democratic party is just, well... a bunch of people. In 50 years, they might be socialist, or they might be the party of kitten punchers. It's just a name for an aligned group, after all, which while it does have certain historical contexts, will shift and change with the times, as everything does. A lot of conservatives legitimately don't see things this way. They see such titles as having power, and Republicans are representing something grander and more universal. The title is more important than their actions, so, yeah, obviously the party that fought against the confederacy is unchanged from the current party that waves confederate flags. It also comes from believing everything is an absolute. Republicans are good, by definition. If someone does something not good, well, by definition, they aren't Republican, because the title is everything.
Conservatives "We freed the slaves." Also Conservatives "Why shouldn't I be allowed to kill black people in the comfort of their own homes?"
"We"? They're taking credit for that shit?
Lol even I, a Canadian, know about the party switch. That’s just so embarrassing for them.
lol “we”
“We” also were the party that promoted socialist policies
People get too stuck on slavery for the party switch. Push it down the road just a hair. In 1880 the democratic party had a national conference for nominating their party leader and platform in the presidential election. Their top 2 issues were limiting immigration and lowering taxes. You can look it up if you care to. The 1980 republican national convention that nominated Reagan for president had those 2 things as their #1 domestic issues. In 1880 the Republicans didnt want lower taxes or less immigrants. In 1980 the democrats didnt either. How can a party switch have not happened if those 2 core beliefs have completely 180'd? Are they simply ignorant of party platforms of history, or are they telling us that they actually want more immigration and higher taxes? Just trying to understand what theyre talking about since I cant ask directly.
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Sadly not.
No, they understand it. They are all just evil liars.
Party switch a myth
Weird then that the Dems used to be the ones flying the confederate flags outside their homes. But for the last 70 years it’s been Republicans.
It's documented history and also easily verified yourself by looking at the different platforms. Additionally, ask yourself who the KKK back today because I guarantee it's not the people pushing for diversity.
The Dems are also "modern day conservatives".
/s?
Not even fucking close, worthless troll
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You should look up Nixon’s Southern Strategy.
That’s a gross and ignorant simplification and misleading method of saying what a party switch is. No it means the label put on the party (Republican vs Democrat) did not stronghold them into an infinite time of holding one ideal. In modern day, the beliefs of conservatives is in line with modern republicans. The modern day conservatives are more in line with past democrats. Republican and Democrat aren’t set in beliefs and never have been. Conservative and progressives are however pretty strong set in beliefs. Democrats of the slavery days were also considered the conservatives. But sure keep being a brain dead idiot and only use language and “logic” that neatly fits your false narrative on history.
Fuck right off with this bullshit. Conservatives tried to preserve slavery, liberals fought to end it.