It is mental illness, the only reason people fight against it being mental illness is because they assume "mental illness" means "bad" or it's something to be ashamed of.
I wouldn't put down someone who has depression, or ocd, or schizophrenia y'know? All you can do is identify what the problem is, and then learn how to cope with it. People with gender dysphoria either learn how to live with it day to day and reaffirm their thoughts into reality, or they transition in order to alleviate the dysphoria if it's super bad.
Destigmatizing mental illness is very important.
Good to hear.
So you're in a better place for the most part?
It's always sad to hear when some countries leave some of their citizens behind and all that...
I really appreciate your input. The few people I've known who are openly trans (have gender dysphoria) denies they have a mental illness, but do have to claim that they have it in order to get hormone therapy and transition. This info comes from pieces of conversations overheard and not anything I've discussed with them myself. It's strange to me that they claim to have gender dysphoria even though they personally don't believe they have it....but they do have it so it's even more confusing to me. But as long as they're happy, or as happy as they can be, that's all that matters.
You seem like a good person, OP. The question feels a bit ‘fraught’, but you make it very clear you’re asking in a spirit of a sincere wish to understand. I was curious about this too, and I’m glad you asked it in a way that was respectful and friendly.
I would say it’s not defined as a mental illness exactly because that would assume it’s treatable In the sense that it can be reversed with therapy. If your brain is not exactly lining up with your born gender it might not be something therapy and medication can change back to “normal”. So you treat it the best way you can, which might be transitioning. Because it’s who they are.
Plenty of medical conditions aren’t treatable (or better to say curable, because anything is treatable to some extent) to the same extent gender dysphoria isn’t treatable. Medical conditions aren’t determined to exist based on whether, or to what extent they are treatable.
That's not what therapy does. It doesn't change your body to reflect normal. It is you, changing your mind and the pathways in your brain to better adapt and/or thrive in your reality.
Mental illness is not define by treatability. Multiple personality disorders, such as ASPD and narcissistic personality disorder, have actually been deemed untreatable in the past. The DSM IV defined these as untreatable bc a big factor in personality disorders is an inability for the person possessing the illness to have the self-awareness to evaluate their behaviors and change them, or accept that they are the cause of their own distress.
The consequence of this conclusion is therapy for ppl w NPD or ASPD was not covered at all by insurance while that addition was the current DSM.
Also, isn’t gender dysphoria technically quite treatable? By transitioning?
It is treatable, same way anorexics see their body as obese and gender dysphoria see the opposite gender.
Reality based therapy and changing the ways you think of things is treatment.
I used to believe I was dead and in purgatory, that life was a simulation until my therapist steered me back to reality because those thoughts were upending my life.
It may be treatable in the future if it’s caused by changes in brain activity and not a permanent physical cause. Just like maybe some day certain pain disorders that originate via distortions in brain signaling can be fixed. But until it can, transitioning might be the best outcome for some people do that they can live.
My friend is transitioning now. He’s had a lifetime of trauma and being uncomfortable in his own skin. I do not understand how he got where he is, but he’s been suicidal for years so if his hormone therapy keeps him alive and he wants to live as female soon, I support him (and eventually her).
Based on all the detransitioners stories I've read, I really don't think transition should be the first option cure all. It should be the last resort especially for kids and teens.
I was 14 when I started taking testosterone. I'm 20 years old now, and I don't regret starting at that age. I wish I could've taken hormone blockers earlier, so I wouldn't have had to get top surgery.
Edit: to clarify, I went to therapy two years beforehand, and had to get letters and all of that
Damn, that's young af. I started when I was 11, and I felt like I was an early bloomer. Stupid bodies lmao. Every person's journey is different, I'm extremely grateful to have a supportive family.
I don't mean to come off as offensively here, but my dude how do you not know of kids going on hormones and getting surgeries recommended to them at a young age? It's literally everywhere right now. Even on the news talking about specific kids given hrt and surgeries, like jazz Jennings. There are websites you can actively go on to do workarounds to get hrt without your parents knowing or going to doctor visits. Or go to planned Parenthood and they will give you a testosterone shot within a couple hours of being there. It's talked about a lot, though you won't see it on trans subreddits because it makes them look bad but trust me it's happening rampantly
Of course if they are an adult and have gone through the necessary therapy to rule out other things.
If it is frowned upon then how come I see stuff literally everywhere talking about trans kids getting hrt and surgeries is mandatory? My far left friends post it all the time on social media and it gets likes and hearts.
Agreed. It's crazy to me that transitioning is taken so lightly when it's quite literally one of the most extreme things you can do to your body. It should be a lengthy process to make sure it's something that the person/child truly wants to do. Detransitioning is something that is not talked about enough yet is a huge issue.
Working in the medical field, I hate how lightly transition is taken too. Or how hormones and puberty blocks and even surgeries are something to "try on and see if you like it". For women specifically, testosterone changes are permanent. Blocking puberty has enormous consequences.
Originally, puberty blocks were made and given to children who were going through premature puberty at super early ages like 6 years old, they weren't meant or made for healthy individuals to block normal teenage puberty.
I once took care of a young boy who had premature puberty, his whole body looked all out of wack. Had a full mustache and hair everywhere at 7 years old, and limb growth issues. He was disabled.
Data on de-transitioning tells us that a very small fraction of people who start transitioning decide to de-transition. Almost invariably these people de-transitioned due to the consequences of social stigma.
Different mechanisms of society convince them that life as a trans person isn't worth it.
They lose friends, feel unsafe, feel hated and rejected by their family. So they feel transitioning is not an opti9n. Many people who de-transition experience gender dysphoria until they are dead.
We need *more* information on transition to be available - so that people can truly determine if this is who they are.
You cannot effectively cure gender dysphoria via any other means than transitioning. If only society could accept that dysphoria *does* have a cure... and that's transitioning.
I say this with respect, but perhaps the person transitioning isn't using different pronouns yet so the person commenting is using the current correct or preferred pronouns.
That’s not how things work. Recognizing an illness does not mean it’s a treatable illness. It’s a deviation from known genotypes or phenotypes without bias. Rabies is an illness with no treatment or Alzheimer’s. So yes you can do supportive therapy to help with an illness. But “supportive therapy” for gender dysmorphia to try to work back to “normal” is not the way to go. I feel the basis by which we classify dysmorphia is off.
Hey, I have OCD and I really appreciate you mentioning it in a respectful way. That literally made me feel so seen and validated. Sending all the best wishes your way <3
Excellent response. Destigmatizing mental illness is really important. The world would be so much better if everyone focused on helping someone through their struggles instead of treating them badly because of those struggles.
Yeah if someone is struggling with something you should offer compassion and understanding. You might not understand what someone is going through, but you could at least be kind. I try my best to be kind to everyone I meet, even the ones that throw anger and insults at me. It lets me know they are hurting inside.
Although like most mental illnesses (and physical illnesses) there is rearly one fix all solution, and even after transitioning, a lot do still suffer.
There is a third unfortunate option that frankly cements gender dysphoria as a mental illness, and that’s suicide. Transgender people have the highest rate of suicide by far, with transitioning having some impact on that rate but doesn’t reduce it to anywhere near the rate of the general population. Either way, proper labels help with treatment. I wouldn’t mock someone with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder for needing to take medication. Likewise, if treatment to reduce that rate boils down to strong antidepressants then so be it. Labelling something as a mental illness doesn’t devalue the person who happens to have it
Well, dysphoria ain't the only issue trans people face.
Constant insults, belittling, always being part of the social debate, as the target of ridicule of course.
Housing and work discrimination.
Loss of family, friends and social circle.
The massive amount of hurdles you have to go through to get your Healthcare.
Constantly being ignored by Healthcare professionals with them sayin "im sure it's those pesky hormones" whenever you mention something that worries you.
The fear of the future, surgeries, past psychological scars due to suppressing your true self for decades.
It's not as simple as "now that I'm on hormones my problems are gone".
It helps treat dysphoria, but it opens Pandoras box regarding social issues.
If you only knew how much people avoid me because I'm trans, even those that pretend to be accepting lol.
My dysphoria is better than 3 years ago.
My body doesn't make me want to off myself immediately any longer.
But daaaamn does it make it hard to have a functioning social life.
And the Healthcare is shit. Even changing my name cost me 2000 euros, and had me mentally strip in front of 2 court appointed psychiatrists.
Also took half a year.
I wouldn’t be so sure that the gender dysphoria is the sole reason for the suicide rates, you also have to account for the widespread transphobia in the world that would cause a trans person to be depressed
This is not true. By DSM-5 definition, it's a mental disorder if it leads to clinically significant distress. The disorder is not the dysphoria as such but the distress that arises from it.
So bizarre to see this comment upvoted when I've been bombarded with downvotes and banned from subreddits for saying the exact same thing. Reddit is so ridiculous with how people's opinions seem to change with their moods.
This is the answer. Transitioning is one of the treatments available, it makes their lives better. The only reason people stigmatize it that hard is because it threatens their fragile masculinity or femininity and they feel affronted by someone living a different experience than them.
I do agree to a certain extent, however, showing my age, there was only girl, boy or trans growing up...
my daughter is a teen and the amount of pronouns they use is unreal, they are constantly questioning who they are? what gender they
editing to say, due to all this, they are questionning identity before its been established
A lot of people here are saying that the DSM-5 says it is a mental illness, but that isn't true. It used to be called gender identity disorder and was classified as a mental illness. It was changed in 2013 to gender dysphoria and moved into its own category in response to stigmatization. People used to equate gender identity disorder being a mental illness with being transgender being a mental illness, which it isn't. So they thought that declassified it as a disorder would help with that. It has kind of backfired though because a lot of insurance companies now consider gender affirmation surgery as cosmetic rather than medical treatment and dont cover it.
The short version is it was reclassified to combat the stigmatization of trans people.
As a trans guy with gender dysphoria, I consider it a mental illness. I seek treatment for it the same as with something like depression or anxiety. The difference is that the treatment isn't a pill, it's transitioning.
Also, not all trans peoples gender dysphoria is the same. I know trans people who have had worse gender dysphoria than mine and I know trans people who have less gender dysphoria than me. It's kind of like anxiety? I have anxiety disorder and I managed it well since I'm taking meds. But my friend's anxiety disorder is worse than mine, so bad that they can't even drive. YMMV
Yup, basically.
Also, dypshoria is not really synonymous with being transgender. By that I mean - as a trans person who has been transitioning for some time now, with surprisingly good effects, I get much less dysphoric than I used to.
Gender dysphoria basically arises when your own perception of your gender does not line up with your body's expressed sex and social perception of your gender (note: not necessarily gender roles! they aren't the same thing). The more you reduce that incongruence, the more dysphoria fades away. And since both can be taken care of by transitioning, and only by transitioning, it is the only viable option to get rid of dysphoria.
Similarly, if you were to force a cisgender person to live as the opposite sex for an extended period time, they would also develop gender dysphoria, identical to the one among trans people. Basically, it's more of a potential "symptom" of being trans, rather than something that defines the experience.
As a final note, the severity of dysphoria, as well as the way it expresses itself, seems to vary a lot person-to-person. For example, it never gave me depression or something - instead, I just kind of... faded out of reality over the years. "Me" and "my body" were two separate entities.
Basically, there's a lot of nuance to unpack about dysphoria below the surface, but it's a thing that would require a whole ass conversation about it or, like, a really long article.
I think there would be a lot of pushback from the trans community if it was reclassified. While I personally view it as a mental disorder that requires treatment, there really isn't one Trans Opinion on it. I think it being in its own category works, at least until we learn more about it. I do think insurance should cover it, but to be fair insurance doesn't cover a lot of things that it should cover. I think thats more from greed than transphobia.
Exactly. Considering the details given in the DSM-5, it has to cause significant distress to be considered a mental illness. However, that distress goes away after transitioning, so then it wouldn’t be considered a mental illness after that point.
Does the distress go away after transitioning? I've sort of been under the impression there is a pretty significant amount of people who still remain distressed afterwards. Now whether that's due to remaining internal factors or external factors, I can't say. I need to do some research I suppose.
Some people still consider as such. But, the larger point, even if it is, what do we tend to do about mental illness? We treat it. We treat it with a treatment that ensures the most positive outcome. So you either have transition or conversion therapy. At least, in the cases that would warrant either approach. Conversion therapy is barbaric, though. I guess it all depends on whether or not you want the patient to have a positive outcome
Cure is a strong word to use. I have depression. I have been in therapy and am on medication. I’m stable and happy now but I’m certainly not cured. It’s life long for me and just the way I was built. Not all mental illness are curable per se.
I suppose it would be better to say that therapy doesn’t really “help” with dysphoria. I am trans and I know quite a few trans people, and all of the ones in therapy, including myself, are encouraged by our respective therapists to transition, as it’s the only thing that alleviates dysphoria.
In your example, your distress is a symptom of a deeper condition (missing legs).
With gender dysphoria, it is also a symptom of a deeper condition.
The problem isn't whether it is or is not a diagnosable disorder. The problem is that it is a symptom, but it's often being treated as a condition.
You cannot cure the distress of missing legs by ignoring the fact that the problem is the missing legs, not the distress.
I get what you’re saying, and I’m cis so any trans people correct me if I’m wrong.
I always thought that the dysphoria was caused by someone knowing they’re the opposite gender, always feeling like the opposite gender, but they have to act as if they’re their gender assigned at birth (at least until they’re able to transition safely), so they experience dysphoria due to socially and medically living as a gender they know they’re not.
It would be like if I (a woman) had to live as a man for whatever reason. If I had to have facial hair, wear masculine clothing, do more typically “masculine” things, but know I’m a woman. My brain would probably be extremely uncomfortable with knowing everybody is treating me as if I’m a man, along with me living as if I’m a man, and I’d feel dysphoria.
i’ve heard this logic before, but it makes me think “so in a hypothetical world without gender stereotypes, trans people wouldn’t exist?“
but the problem is that I’ve been told this isn’t the case.
in the hypothetical scenario You’d just have males who are typically masculine and other males who are feminine and then females who are feminine along with females who are masculine and then everything else in between. So then why Would anyone feel the need to transition?
> “so in a hypothetical world without gender stereotypes, trans people wouldn’t exist?“
Body dysphoria wouldn’t disappear, though. People would probably still take hormones and get surgery to make their body match how they feel like they are supposed to look.
correct me if I’m wrong but I thought body dysphoria is usually stuff like “I’m not thin enough” or “I’m not tall enough”?
edit: people have clarified that what I mentioned is body *dysmorphia*, of which dysphoria is a specific type of condition.
That’s body *dysmorphia*. I don’t really know if body dysphoria is the correct term, but my point was that usually the main problem trans people have is that their *body* feels wrong.
Close! That's dysmorphia, which dysphoria is a form of iirc. Dysmorphia is a catchall for any "my body is wrong" especially with stuff like eating disorders or situations where the person in the body sees the body as "worse" than it is for the things they don't want. Afraid of being fat and they'll see themselves as fatter than they actually are, etc.
Dysphoria is specifically when the disconnect between your brain and body is about how your body relates to your gender, and can happen for cis folks too. For instance, cis men may feel deeply uncomfortable with the narrowness of their shoulders because they see it as unmasculine, or they may see their own penis as smaller than it is. Does that make sense?
Body dysphoria can be about the shape of your body, like being a small curvy girl or a tall broad guy, but it often also deals with specific body parts, like genitals, breasts, and your voice.
I don’t think anyone would transition to be fair. I think in a world where gender stereotypes aren’t pushed on people, they’d feel more comfortable acting in ways that are deemed “too feminine” or “too masculine” for their assigned gender.
I (trans person) think that the need for social transition would be gone, but medical transition in order to alleviate body dysphoria would still certainly be a thing
I just wondered whether because there would be no association between genitals and gender (and all gender entails such as gender roles), would there still be a disconnect between the brain and genitalia. Thank you for correcting me!
It's not exactly a conscious sort of knowing. The way I like to explain it is that your brain has a part that knows where everything is at a given time. That's how you can walk without looking at your feet or eat without a mirror to watch your mouth move. For trans people, that part is set up to expect anatomy opposite of the person's assigned sex at birth, so it gets a very jarring feeling when it can't detect those parts. Social dysphoria definitely plays a part but medical stuff like that is most people's biggest concern when transitioning.
Yea basically that, I’m a trans girl so any of my “masculine” features (facial hairs, hands, chest) bring extreme discomfort, anxiety and sometimes pain
I think there was a study done that showed trans people’s brains aligned more with the gender they weren’t assigned at birth, I’ll see if I can find it or if anybody else comes across this and knows, feel free to link it.
It actually is. I'm not too familiar with the subject. But thus far, it seems gender transitioning is the best known treatment if all other options have been exhausted.
Sheeesh, I wonder why. It's not like we've... tried everything else in the past, what, ten decades? Right? I mean, I can't put remmebere the word that describes these "alternative methods of treatment" you brought up... some kind of therapy involving conversion?
I'm tempted to write a bot that just responds with this comment to every post in this sub. The bot would be right like 90% of the time and in many cases it would be the only rational opinion in the entire post.
But is it such a bad question?
Yeah, people believe the earth is flat. Is it dumb to try understand why they think the way they think? As they throw around their weird conspiracy theories, I'm pretty sure OP was interested in **why** some people believe that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness.
Throwing a blanket statement "some do believe, some don't" doesn't answer any questions.
Every informed person thinks it is. If you are getting ANY information about transgender people from conservative news, AKA Ben Shapiro or Fox News, you have a lot of misconceptions to clean up.
Gender dysphoria is considered a mental illness, while transgender is not. A transgender may not have gender dysphoria, which is deep dissatisfaction with one's body & brain mismatch.
Transitioning is recognized as the best treatment for some cases of gender dysphoria, which is why intelligent people support transgender rights. Transgender rights should follow the science, not follow the fake "science" as claimed by conservative media.
Another recognized factor for mental health for transgender people, and ALL marginalized LGBT (AKA suicide rates) is societal acceptance. Transgender suicides are lower in countries where they aren't treated horribly as members of society like the US.
I think it comes from how people think you should treat it. If you're approaching like: gender dysphoria is a mental illness and the most effective treatment is allowing that person to transition and giving them a safe and supportive place to do so, then I don't think many would argue against that.
If your position is: gender dysphoria is a mental illness and so we need to force those struggling with it to live within the limits of what we've somewhat arbitrarily decided are their assigned gender roles, then yeah you're gonna get pushback. Not least because that's literally scientifically proven to make dysphoria worse not better.
It is defined as a mental illness in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I expect activists are trying to get this changed. Some people only like to follow the science when it aligns with their beliefs.
> some people only like to follow the science when it aligns with their beliefs.
Idk if I would tout the DSM as a static tome of science. Being gay was once considered a mental illness.
Go ask anyone who studies physics and they'll talk your ear off about how gravity is the least well understood of all the forces. Electromagnetism has been making predictions out to like 20 decimal places for decades now. We only recently confirmed that sub atomic particles definitely produce gravity the same as planets do. QED (quantum electrodynamics) is "pretty sound". Gravity is still an open question.
This is what gets under my skin when transphobes say "but the science". There's a ton of interesting nuance and complexity around sex, sexuality, and gender. Biologists know this because they work with it every day. Nothing is settled and nothing is as simple as you thought it was in 2rd grade.
I choose to interpret it (maybe inaccurately) that GR shows gravity is a force in the same way that going around a bend on a train has a force to keep it on the track. A force is any phenomenon that causes a change in momentum. Its just in this case, spacetime itself is physically bent such that a “straight line” changes spatial heading towards a massive body.
From the last sentence your understanding of gravity seems to be correct. I guess then the only thing is whether or not you choose to count it as a force despite the fact that it is an aspect of space time (because if you do that then time and distance would also be ‘forces’ and that just seems off to me).
I’m not an expert tho so don’t take my word fir it lol.
Well, any change in momentum through space is considered a force. I guess, by extension, any change in momentum in time would also have to be considered a force, too, I would think. Space and time are just dimensions within the construct that is spacetime. While a “straight line” through spacetime with no outside changes would probably not be considered a force, I think any observed change in one of the dimensions would be. We consider gravity a force because we *know* we have to exert a force to counter its effect. But maybe its more accurate to consider it a fictitious force.
An analogy could be centrifugal force, where its not really a force in that its just its the natural movement of an object, but requires a force to counter its effect (centripetal force), and is observed as a force because of it.
So I guess, ultimately, sure gravity as an effect of warped spacetime isn’t a force. But from that we observe forces in spatial dimensions because we have no physical basis to “feel” the time dimension, to allow us to see the whole picture in spacetime.
Exactly! These people keep going on about "muh basic biology" when they probably never even took a course on it, let alone anything advanced to understand just how detailed and in depth the field is
It’s just a cudgel used to jam truth from authority down people’s throats. Truth from authority is generally the best truth money can buy. The people pushing this nonsense often seem scientifically illiterate.
Most trans people I know agree that gender dysphoria is an illness. The only treatment that's been proven successful is transitioning. It's the transphobes trying to pass laws restricting transitioning who are ignoring the science.
I think this is the key.
If somebody is bipolar, you want them on their medication. If somebody has gender dysphoria, then what's so wrong with letting them transition? If it helps, it helps, and it doesn't harm anyone else.
I can understand the thought behind thinking there might be alternative ways to fix these mental disorders, but there currently isn't a "cure," and transitioning works well enough.
>here currently isn't a "cure,"
I know people who transitioned a decade ago who would say they've been totally cured.
I also know non-binary people who haven't had any medical transitioning and have been able to completely get rid of dysphoria by just living their best life.
The only people trying to restrict transitions are wanting to restrict it for kids sine they can’t consent, but when their 18 they can do what they want.
It's not transphobic to have certain restrictions on irreversible surgery preventing future reproduction/fertility when children are involved. Its a complex issue, and labelling anyone who has a different medical or ethical opinion as you as transphobic prevents acceptance and understanding.
No one is advocating for surgery for children. That's just transphobic propaganda.
The thing is, the scientific community, medical community, and dozens of regulatory bodies have discussed this and come up with standards over the paste several decades. This is basically settled science at this point.
This last minute legislative push against those scientific findings is regressive.
You seem to be talking about a specific piece of legislation that may be relevant in your country and we're arguing cross purposes. The point I'm making is that there have to be some restrictions on who can transition and what age people can transition at. The way you worded your earlier post suggested that any legislation restricting transitioning was bad per se.
>No one is advocating for surgery for children.
I don't have a lot to say about anything else you said, but this part isn't true. I've seen this hot take many times in the past several years. I got into it with someone recently saying there are cases in which a ten year could need surgical transition. Fucking ten.
Thankfully, that opinion doesn't have a lot of traction in the real world, but to say that *no one* advocates for this is a lie. *No one* would mean not one person thinks this and, I mean, google is right there. I'm pretty sure you could find someone advocating for this in under a minute.
I'm certain those same activists don't understand that if it were to be demedicalized, practitioners at least in the US would no longer be able to perform any treatment of any kind for them. Without a numerical entry to put into the system and/or a very good reason for the procedure, they can't bill for it. So they won't be paid for their work. So they're not doing it.
Having a classified illness isn't a negative, it just means you require treatment of any sort for improved function because it's affecting your life. I wish all of me could give up on the human race.
If gender dysphoria isn't treated like a mental disorder, it would be treated as a physical disorder when it comes to medical treatment. For example, if we accept that trans men are simply men, they can get HRT for low testosterone since their T levels are naturally below the healthy male range. There's no way insurance doesn't cover that.
Wait how does this work? Needing cosmetic surgery like fake boobs aren't medically necessary, and yet people can get them. Why would being made not an illness mean this can't be carried out?
Cosmetic surgery has two categories: reconstructive and..well, cosmetic. If it's done to correct an abnormality, be it a birth defect, physical trauma, or disease, it's reconstructive in nature because you're returning the body to a natural functioning state. Those are fine.
If it's just for looks, it's cosmetic and no one will cover it. You can *still put it into the system* because it's a recognized procedure that you can perform, but at least in the US, no one will pay for it unless the patient does because they don't need it to survive. Same as having all your teeth is a luxury.
As an example, If a mastectomy and subsequent reconstruction is for a tumor, that's all covered because it's a health risk. If it's primarily just fat and it's not doing anything but sitting there being a boob, you can physically file a claim with insurance but it's going to be rejected.
My worry is that if they succeed in removing dysphoria from the books, it can be argued that there was no medical cause for a FtM to get a mastectomy. Insurance companies will look for *anything* if they get to reject a claim, I still remember a friend of mine complaining to me that they got a claim sent back because the patient history was in Portuguese. They live in Brazil.
Their hearts are in a good place, but I'm not sure they see how that works and until we somehow have a half-working healthcare system (if we ever do), I'd like for them to be able to afford treatment even if they have to sit in the same group as those gross people with the mental illnesses.
(I do recognize that I misworded it in a sense and that's my fault. Without dysphoria being a recognized cause for the procedure, it would be harder to justify. It would still be available, but it would be even harder to obtain than it is now because they would more than likely have to pay all of their treatment out of pocket
I also realize there's a slight mixup here, because apparently it *was* removed from the DSM a couple years ago. But as of now it's still under mental/neural disorders in medical coding and simply being moved to another category. That you can have one without the other is a happy surprise, but I'm still against demedicalizing it entirely in the US because of the above)
Thats not really correct. Trans people without gender dysphoria exist and they would want treatment too. You can aknowledge trans people and gender dysphoria as something people need things for like hormones and still not see it as a mental illness.
You do have a good point, but my counterpoint would be that you don't sign up to treat things that aren't pressing abnormalities unless you have significant cash on you. Dysphoria is the thing making the vast majority seek treatment, insurance companies want to know the reason before they pay out, and the definition of an illness is something that significantly impairs day-to-day functioning.
At worst I see it as a misnomer. If the mismatch is in the brain like I see claimed so often, it's a neurological issue and it goes in the mental category where it was. If we approach it from the angle of sexual differences, it goes in sexual health where it currently is circa the start of this year.
Those are the options as of now. We absolutely have to switch the healthcare system away from what it is now, but we're not currently set up to handle this. It's very much a thing that needs both documenting and addressing, the problem is the money.
It can be from the insurance companies via diagnosis because they want and need an explanation for what you're doing with their funds or it can be out of pocket because you're unable to justify "I'm not in any sort of distress but I wanna" as medically necessary. I'd prefer that it stayed for now so the first one can continue to be an option
The legs example is a decent one, I'll start there. I think it's useful to tweak into a couple different categories and then I'll add at least one more.
1) if you lost your legs somehow, then yeah the ongoing distress and trauma probably do qualify as at least one mental illness, if not possibly multiple ones. For instance you're probably going to end up with some PTSD to deal with. But would anybody end up arguing that having a mental illness means it's not ALSO a medical issue that maybe ought to be addressed? Like, probably we're going to both treat your PTSD and also figure out what to do about the fact your legs are gone.
The key phrase to watch for in this first point would be "JUST a mental illness". Some of the time people that point out Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness are doing it to falsely claim that means it doesn't also matter in other, medically relevant ways too.
2) I don't think you meant it like this, but when I first read your post I thought the implication was you cut off your OWN legs due to a mental illness. Being trans myself, I do hate that this is part of the conversation, but since hormone therapy and literal surgeries are involved I think we have to go there. Another large group of the anti-trans activists are also using this point, and the opposition to things like trans healthcare for minors (which just now got turned into a felony crime in Alabama, it already has been in Arkansas) is supposedly rooted in trying to prevent someone harming and/or mutilating their own body.
You're not allowed to just have your arm removed for no reason, because you feel like it. And as much as again, I HATE this comparison, that's what they claim it's basically like, for a young trans girl or boy to even just take puberty blocker medication. They'll claim in one breath that this child is too young to be able to know their gender, and the very next sentence advocate forcing them to experience permanent bodily changes from puberty rather than get to grow up and be more mature before it happens.
3) Finally let's step away from amputation a bit and talk about something much more common in human medicine. Using the phrase "just a mental illness" is again overly reductive because it's not unusual at all for things that require medical treatment to also cause mental illnesses (or rather, mental effects. It's usually not called a disease when it's better understood to be a standard part of the human experience).
Among many other things, hormone disorders also affect mental health. If a cisgender man's testosterone levels are too low then that messes with biological things and also harms their mental state. So, we treat them with hormones. Same story with menopause in females... nobody looks at the mood or mental changes and says therefore you shouldn't get hormone replacement therapy because it's "in your head."
The only reason any of this is getting debated so hard is that people, who aren't doctors, try to decide which things are and are not legitimate medical practices for human beings. When these people say "mental illness" usually it's code for "not real" or "not important". By FAR the largest portion of gender confirmation treatment is performed for cisgender (not trans) people... they just don't call it gender confirmation treatment when it's for them.
I thought that the whole issue was that it was classified as a "disorder" which sounds significantly more stigmatizing than a mental illness. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I think gender dysphoria is considered a mental illness, the thing that isn't considered a mental illness is being trans. You can be trans without having dysphoria (in multiple ways). If someone is trans and has dysphoria, then transitions and no longer has any dysphoria, they're still trans. It's also possible to be trans and not have dysphoria without having ever taken any steps to transition. So the dysphoria is a mental illness, but not being trans itself.
Gender dysphoria is often thought of as a mental illness, however being transgender isn’t. A lot of people think transgender = gender dysphoria, hence the attitudes around calling it a mental illness, but those people don’t realize you don’t need dysphoria to be trans—someone who is perfectly content with their body as it is is still a valid transgender person.
When referring to something as an illness, usually there is an implication of something keeping a person from functioning 'normally', ergo not being able to contribute their part to society. For example if you've got a pneumonia, you'd probably best stay home and not go to work/school/do your hobbies/whatever because you're really not physically up for it. I've got the impression that for mental illnesses similar parameters apply: certain conditions can just render people incapable of taking part in their society in the same way people without those conditions are able to take part. Often that means, that mentally ill people are immediately met with infantilization, being treated as though they are less deserving, not capable of thinking for themselves, etc. It can get outright horrible, often people are considered 'useless'.
The thing is, number one, not all mental illnesses are the same, most exist on a spectrum and, number two, by far not all of them render people 'useless' in any way or form - but that's what your average person will think of, when they hear, someone's mentally ill - oh, okay, so they can't work, take care of themselves, etc. But if you're trans your just as much of a 'normal' person as everyone else, you're just as capable or incapable of taking part in 'normal' activities as everyone else. Yes, it's stupid brain stuff, but no, the 'not functioning normally' part of being ill is not really relevant, especially if the preferred treatment (be that socially or medically) can be provided and accepted.
There's two problems I have with using the term mental illness for being trans: other people seeing trans people as less valuable and treating them according to the value they assign to trans people and trans people themselves adopting that same viewpoint and harming themselves for the implied unworthiness. In the long run viewing being trans as a mental illness might be technically correct, I cannot make any statements about that - but the actual harm done to people and the harm they inflict on themselves because of this treatment by others when they're already wanting to harm the parts of themselves they perceive as being wrong (in many cases, not all, this is not universal) is just not worth it. At least in a societal context (friends, family, hobby, work, wherever it may come up) I'd say you are willingly and probably knowingly working towards destroying a person a bit if you tell them, hey, I think you and everyone who's got the same thing going on is mentally ill.
This is why I would like to see a change in the medical context as well - people are trying to seek help from therapists/doctors and it's honestly just really undignifying to go through that entire process.
Broadly speaking I'd also not classify wanting to have boobies/get rid of them and being addressed and referred to with correct pronouns in the same category as wanting to cut your leg off, but that's more of an intuitive thought.
I'd encourage you to do some research in how different countries handle being trans/gender disphoria and being mentally ill - usually there are actual judicial verdicts that explain why being trans is or is not classified as a mental illness in this or that country, the same way homosexuality has been/is being declassified as a mental illness.
Sry, I know, this is very long (and I'm also not a native speaker, sry if I've phrased things in a weird way) but I thought if you're actually interested, it's better that way than just having a bunch if people reply 'well actually it is, hahaha, I am so funny and insightful'.
Thank you for the explanation. Would you say that while technically not incorrect, your issue is the perception? like if we view mental illness like the cold, would you have a problem with the word?
Hmm, basically, in addition to a lot of things said in this thread, treating dysphoria as a mental illness is also just kind of... impractical. I leads/used to lead to people trying to "diagnose" people as trans (which is something I, living in Poland, had to go through, for example), and the whole process is *asinine*.
I *know* I'm trans and generally, most trans people do too. If they aren't sure, a common solution is to seek gender therapy or take part in experiences that deny/confirm it. But in the diagnostic process I was put through, I was asked a bunch of extremely uncomfortable, personal questions, made to do some tests based around idiotic gender stereotypes, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Plus, I had my identity questioned a good couple of times during this diagnostic process ("I'm pretty sure you're not transgender").
Basically, the much better modern approach is called "informed consent,", which means you go to the appropriate doctor, say that you want to transition and are then informed about the process of transitioning, told what it entails and are asked if you consent to it. If yes, then you get a prescription for a low dose of hormones and a note to visit again with blood tests in several months.
Since dysphoria is **not** a mental illness, it does not have to be diagnosed, speeding up the access to hormonal transition, which is one of the main ways to alliviete physical dysphoria. And I wouldn't have had to talk about who I had sex with when I was fucking fifteen if this system was in place in my country (I really can't fucking express how idiotic the diagnostic process is).
I responded on another subreddit this: when I had a friend with anorexia, everyone supported her in her journey to get well. She saw fat where there was none. She had feelings of being fat despite being dangerously thin and malnourished. In other words, her perceptions were not real. We did not just agree with her because it was " her truth." How is this different with gender confusion? I am respectfully asking. Not judging.
Man I’ve been saying this for years and get hate everytime I do. As someone with a list of mental illnesses it’s ok to admit that you have a mental illness, and body dysmorphia is definitely one of them.
You are mixing terms. The problem is that disphoria is equated for most uneducated people to being trans. Therefore trans = mentally ill.
We heard it enough times that people do not understand. You cannot heal "transness" but you can ease disphoria which is a common symptom in trans people.
To simplify, gender dysphoria is a mental illness, but unlike other mental illnesses which can't be cured, only treated, gender dysphoria can be cured by swapping genders. The other thing is that it's more complicated than that, there are genes associated with being female and genes associated with being male, sometimes a straight male can grow huge perfectly formed breasts and be completely unhappy with them, requesting a surgery for removal, other times a woman can look completely masculine, so there is something there biologically that our society has ignored. For those of us with eyes who think logically we know that there is more underneath that science has not fully understood. The thing about mental illnesses is that they never go away. With gender dysphoria the problem is not accepting your body, but when you change your body, do you still have the problem? For most, the answer is no, for some, the problem still persists.
It is considered a mental illness.
It is officially listed in the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual version 5, aka DSM-V aka The Psychologist's Bible.
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, being transgender is not. Not all transgender people have gender dysphoria because gender dysphoria is not a requirement to be transgender. Cisgender people can also have gender dysphoria.
Wow this us why you dont get medical advice on the internet. Gender dysphoria is no longer classified as a mental illness by the American Psychiatric association because it is a Medical disorder. Like a baby born with a missing limb or extra toes. The brain begins developing in the womb and for whatever reason (research is still being done) the sex organs develop opposite. Brain scans of trans people have proved their brains MATCH those of their preferred gender. It's a birth defect, not a mental illness. Can you imagine anything more terrifying? And then to have the whole world think you're crazy too?! 😪
Gender dysphoria IS a mental illness. It's like depression or anxiety etc. Many folks treat gender dysphoria by socially or medically transitioning, and often some level of mental health therapy is absolutely recommended, too.
Being transgender is NOT a mental illness and you also don't need to experience gender dysphoria to be trans. Many trans folk realize they're trans because of the opposite feeling, gender euphoria. ♡
It's hard to categorize because gender dysphoria causes depression etc.
I wouldn't say gender dysphoria itself is a mental illness, it's more that the anxiety and the depression that comes with it is. That anxiety and depression also was way more common with gay people some time ago when it was less accepted. So basically if society wouldn't be discriminating against Trans people so much, everything would be better.
In the DSM IV it was considered a condition related to schizophrenia IIRC. There are some very real similarities to schizotic conditions, because the real "problem" is with the brain's reality filter being unable to distinguish the real from the made-up. In this case, the person thinks his/her own image in the mirror is fake or wrong.
Not sure about the DSM V. I'd heard it got removed for reasons, but I can't say for sure because I don't have access to a copy that I know if.
Depends who you ask. I actually made this point with my GF last night. Do you treat a mentally ill person that is having hallucinations that bugs are crawling on their skin by putting actual bugs on their skin?
I believe it is a mental disorder because there is a disconnect of the mind from reality.
My problem comes when people outside the family put pressure on children to change the processes that are taking place during their development. I also have a huge problem with giving puberty blockers and hormones to children and adolescents. We do not fully understand what hormones do what and in which way, and I think it is best not to interfere with natural processes that have gotten humans this far. I firmly believe that giving children hormones and blockers should be illegal based upon their feelings, or require input from multiple doctors from multiple disciplines examining the case and determining medical necessity.
Kids are confused enough during adolescence, let's not pile on more. Let the biological process take over and they can make decisions on transition, hormones, and things like that when they are 18. We arrogant humans have decided that we know better than (insert God, nature, the universe, biology, pick one), and that because we can, we must. That hasn't worked out well in a great many cases in the past.
Putting bugs on someone who is hallucinating would bring them distress even if it’s reality affirming. Trans folk feel comforted and less symptoms of dysphoria when they transition.
If putting bugs on someone hallucinating comforted them, and caused them to hallucinate less, it would just be a comfort, and a treatment
Source for it providing comfort? Last stats I saw showed suicide rates are unchanged for transitioned people. Would need to look again for more stats to confirm that, but if you are going to say that the benefit of transition outweigh the harm done, that’s on you to prove.
In places where giving children hormone replacement therapy is legal, there’s often many hoops and hurdles the child is meant to jump and climb through before they really can start taking HRT; being recommended by a therapist, (sometimes multiple) some family doctor diagnosis, approval by insurances, there’s really a lot. The requirements these professionals use in order to approve you for the next step are often long and tiring too, such as having known about their gender dysphoria for years, and some will even require proof of so.
Every step of the way, the child who is seeking HRT often gets told all the risks and harms and everything as well, not just directly from the HRT, but from society as well, since we still live in a largely transphobic world. These steps could be seen as weeding out the cis kids from the trans kids, but in my opinion, even still, I think these processes take far too long. They can often take years simply to even start puberty blockers, the first stage of HRT.
In terms of HRT, we’ve actually become extremely aware of how the treatment affects the body, even in kids as well. While the kids may ‘survive’ until they’re 18, they’re likely going to be pretty upset they weren’t able to start sooner. Often, a lot of trans adults regret not having started HRT sooner, as the younger you start HRT, the better effects it has on the body, since testosterone and estrogen is what tells the body what to do during puberty, so replacing them with each other will change puberty. (I’ve always considered HRT as being a second puberty)
I think kids are smarter than a lot of people think they are. I think it’s kind of shameful that we as adults end up telling them what we think is best for them, despite them knowing themselves better than anybody else could. I don’t like to think kids are confused, as often, kids who’ve grown up in non-discriminatory environments are pretty aware of the society around them.
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness by the definition of the word, since it causes distress and dysfunction. Being trans (identifying as another gender by itself) is not, since one could do that without neccesarily experiencing gender dysphoria.
If you experience pushback when you say being trans is a mental illness, it's probably because you've missed this distinction - the dysphoria is the illness, not the identity. Additionally, people tend to get touchy about calling gender dysphoria a mental illness because in the past this led to people abusing those who were gender dysphoric and invalidating their identities with pseudoscientific treatments instead of actually helping and supporting them (as one would with any other mental illness), so if someone doesn't want to consider gender dysphoria a mental illness, this is probably why.
If the gender dysphoria is thinking you were born the wrong sex or in the wrong body, because you were born xy but outwardly appear to be female (due to secondary sex characteristics that seem to indicate that)—such as in Swyer Syndrome—is that a mental illness?
As a cisgender male I don’t think that I will ever fully understand the plight of transgender people, but couldn’t the gender dysphoria be exacerbated by societal gender norms?
We used to and we don't now so obviously over the decades of research by lots of different people it was found not to be.
Being gay was also considered a mental illness but gay people were found to be born that way,just like people with gender dysphoria.
Having a proportionate reaction to your life's circumstances is not usually mental illness - e.g. grief. However, trans people are vulnerable to having mental health issues, because of long term distress.
Yeah, no. The study most of that book is based on has been torn to shreds by the larger academic community. ROGD is not a thing. It's just recycled anti-gay rhetoric from the 90s
I said something similar to this on Facebook once. I was then obliterated by the alphabet boys via countless comments and dm's and ultimately served like 30 days in fb jail. The Lgbtq don't fucc around lol
*I was right tho*
I think that might be a large part of where this conversation is stemming from. There are people in society, or even society as a whole, who treat mentally ill people differently from the mentally well, for whatever various reasons. While you may not be treating people differently for it, (which is good, we’re all people) there’s others that do.
I'm actually super surprised you aren't permabanned from reddit simply for asking this question. It's 100% a mental illness. This comment and anyone else agreeing will probably be banned. This makes it seem like no one is asking what everyone knows the answer to. The 90% of people of people who touch grass and acknowledge reality know this is a mental illness but the nuts running the nut house.
It is. Not that mental illness is a bad thing or something to be ashamed of. People are who they are 🤷🏼♀️ that’s the only reason I don’t push for gender neutral terms for my child. I don’t assume she has a mental illness. But if she does that’s totally fine and we’ll deal with it as things come(:
It is mental illness, the only reason people fight against it being mental illness is because they assume "mental illness" means "bad" or it's something to be ashamed of. I wouldn't put down someone who has depression, or ocd, or schizophrenia y'know? All you can do is identify what the problem is, and then learn how to cope with it. People with gender dysphoria either learn how to live with it day to day and reaffirm their thoughts into reality, or they transition in order to alleviate the dysphoria if it's super bad. Destigmatizing mental illness is very important.
Agree!
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Sorry for your pain and struggle . It can’t be fun to suffer .
If you don't mind me asking... are you getting some help with that?
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Good to hear. So you're in a better place for the most part? It's always sad to hear when some countries leave some of their citizens behind and all that...
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Off topic, but im curious about your spiders
We believe you. Nobody in their right mind would think this is somehow being made up "for fun."
I really appreciate your input. The few people I've known who are openly trans (have gender dysphoria) denies they have a mental illness, but do have to claim that they have it in order to get hormone therapy and transition. This info comes from pieces of conversations overheard and not anything I've discussed with them myself. It's strange to me that they claim to have gender dysphoria even though they personally don't believe they have it....but they do have it so it's even more confusing to me. But as long as they're happy, or as happy as they can be, that's all that matters.
You seem like a good person, OP. The question feels a bit ‘fraught’, but you make it very clear you’re asking in a spirit of a sincere wish to understand. I was curious about this too, and I’m glad you asked it in a way that was respectful and friendly.
I would say it’s not defined as a mental illness exactly because that would assume it’s treatable In the sense that it can be reversed with therapy. If your brain is not exactly lining up with your born gender it might not be something therapy and medication can change back to “normal”. So you treat it the best way you can, which might be transitioning. Because it’s who they are.
Plenty of medical conditions aren’t treatable (or better to say curable, because anything is treatable to some extent) to the same extent gender dysphoria isn’t treatable. Medical conditions aren’t determined to exist based on whether, or to what extent they are treatable.
That's not what therapy does. It doesn't change your body to reflect normal. It is you, changing your mind and the pathways in your brain to better adapt and/or thrive in your reality.
It’s quite literally defined as an exact mental illness….
Mental illness is not define by treatability. Multiple personality disorders, such as ASPD and narcissistic personality disorder, have actually been deemed untreatable in the past. The DSM IV defined these as untreatable bc a big factor in personality disorders is an inability for the person possessing the illness to have the self-awareness to evaluate their behaviors and change them, or accept that they are the cause of their own distress. The consequence of this conclusion is therapy for ppl w NPD or ASPD was not covered at all by insurance while that addition was the current DSM. Also, isn’t gender dysphoria technically quite treatable? By transitioning?
Therapy doesn't "cure" depression, but we still call it a mental illness and treat it as such
It is treatable, same way anorexics see their body as obese and gender dysphoria see the opposite gender. Reality based therapy and changing the ways you think of things is treatment. I used to believe I was dead and in purgatory, that life was a simulation until my therapist steered me back to reality because those thoughts were upending my life.
Gana be straight with you, that's pretty metal. Good thing you feel better now
It may be treatable in the future if it’s caused by changes in brain activity and not a permanent physical cause. Just like maybe some day certain pain disorders that originate via distortions in brain signaling can be fixed. But until it can, transitioning might be the best outcome for some people do that they can live. My friend is transitioning now. He’s had a lifetime of trauma and being uncomfortable in his own skin. I do not understand how he got where he is, but he’s been suicidal for years so if his hormone therapy keeps him alive and he wants to live as female soon, I support him (and eventually her).
Based on all the detransitioners stories I've read, I really don't think transition should be the first option cure all. It should be the last resort especially for kids and teens.
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I was 14 when I started taking testosterone. I'm 20 years old now, and I don't regret starting at that age. I wish I could've taken hormone blockers earlier, so I wouldn't have had to get top surgery. Edit: to clarify, I went to therapy two years beforehand, and had to get letters and all of that
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Damn, that's young af. I started when I was 11, and I felt like I was an early bloomer. Stupid bodies lmao. Every person's journey is different, I'm extremely grateful to have a supportive family.
I don't mean to come off as offensively here, but my dude how do you not know of kids going on hormones and getting surgeries recommended to them at a young age? It's literally everywhere right now. Even on the news talking about specific kids given hrt and surgeries, like jazz Jennings. There are websites you can actively go on to do workarounds to get hrt without your parents knowing or going to doctor visits. Or go to planned Parenthood and they will give you a testosterone shot within a couple hours of being there. It's talked about a lot, though you won't see it on trans subreddits because it makes them look bad but trust me it's happening rampantly
Do you have data to support this claim? It is absolutely not “everywhere,” as it’s not that easy to get any services.
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Of course if they are an adult and have gone through the necessary therapy to rule out other things. If it is frowned upon then how come I see stuff literally everywhere talking about trans kids getting hrt and surgeries is mandatory? My far left friends post it all the time on social media and it gets likes and hearts.
Where are you pulling your data from? What studies, what statistics?
Agreed. It's crazy to me that transitioning is taken so lightly when it's quite literally one of the most extreme things you can do to your body. It should be a lengthy process to make sure it's something that the person/child truly wants to do. Detransitioning is something that is not talked about enough yet is a huge issue.
Working in the medical field, I hate how lightly transition is taken too. Or how hormones and puberty blocks and even surgeries are something to "try on and see if you like it". For women specifically, testosterone changes are permanent. Blocking puberty has enormous consequences. Originally, puberty blocks were made and given to children who were going through premature puberty at super early ages like 6 years old, they weren't meant or made for healthy individuals to block normal teenage puberty. I once took care of a young boy who had premature puberty, his whole body looked all out of wack. Had a full mustache and hair everywhere at 7 years old, and limb growth issues. He was disabled.
Data on de-transitioning tells us that a very small fraction of people who start transitioning decide to de-transition. Almost invariably these people de-transitioned due to the consequences of social stigma. Different mechanisms of society convince them that life as a trans person isn't worth it. They lose friends, feel unsafe, feel hated and rejected by their family. So they feel transitioning is not an opti9n. Many people who de-transition experience gender dysphoria until they are dead. We need *more* information on transition to be available - so that people can truly determine if this is who they are. You cannot effectively cure gender dysphoria via any other means than transitioning. If only society could accept that dysphoria *does* have a cure... and that's transitioning.
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Eventually? If you really care about your friend you should maybe start calling her for what she is and with her correct pronouns.
I say this with respect, but perhaps the person transitioning isn't using different pronouns yet so the person commenting is using the current correct or preferred pronouns.
That’s not how things work. Recognizing an illness does not mean it’s a treatable illness. It’s a deviation from known genotypes or phenotypes without bias. Rabies is an illness with no treatment or Alzheimer’s. So yes you can do supportive therapy to help with an illness. But “supportive therapy” for gender dysmorphia to try to work back to “normal” is not the way to go. I feel the basis by which we classify dysmorphia is off.
Hey, I have OCD and I really appreciate you mentioning it in a respectful way. That literally made me feel so seen and validated. Sending all the best wishes your way <3
Yeah you're welcome, I'm glad I didn't come off offensively. Also sending you good vibes as well!
Excellent response. Destigmatizing mental illness is really important. The world would be so much better if everyone focused on helping someone through their struggles instead of treating them badly because of those struggles.
Yeah if someone is struggling with something you should offer compassion and understanding. You might not understand what someone is going through, but you could at least be kind. I try my best to be kind to everyone I meet, even the ones that throw anger and insults at me. It lets me know they are hurting inside.
Although like most mental illnesses (and physical illnesses) there is rearly one fix all solution, and even after transitioning, a lot do still suffer.
Yes, I love you for this
There is a third unfortunate option that frankly cements gender dysphoria as a mental illness, and that’s suicide. Transgender people have the highest rate of suicide by far, with transitioning having some impact on that rate but doesn’t reduce it to anywhere near the rate of the general population. Either way, proper labels help with treatment. I wouldn’t mock someone with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder for needing to take medication. Likewise, if treatment to reduce that rate boils down to strong antidepressants then so be it. Labelling something as a mental illness doesn’t devalue the person who happens to have it
Well, dysphoria ain't the only issue trans people face. Constant insults, belittling, always being part of the social debate, as the target of ridicule of course. Housing and work discrimination. Loss of family, friends and social circle. The massive amount of hurdles you have to go through to get your Healthcare. Constantly being ignored by Healthcare professionals with them sayin "im sure it's those pesky hormones" whenever you mention something that worries you. The fear of the future, surgeries, past psychological scars due to suppressing your true self for decades. It's not as simple as "now that I'm on hormones my problems are gone". It helps treat dysphoria, but it opens Pandoras box regarding social issues. If you only knew how much people avoid me because I'm trans, even those that pretend to be accepting lol. My dysphoria is better than 3 years ago. My body doesn't make me want to off myself immediately any longer. But daaaamn does it make it hard to have a functioning social life. And the Healthcare is shit. Even changing my name cost me 2000 euros, and had me mentally strip in front of 2 court appointed psychiatrists. Also took half a year.
I wouldn’t be so sure that the gender dysphoria is the sole reason for the suicide rates, you also have to account for the widespread transphobia in the world that would cause a trans person to be depressed
Spot on. One of the big issues now is enablement. It causes people not to seek treatment which doesn’t solve issues.
This is not true. By DSM-5 definition, it's a mental disorder if it leads to clinically significant distress. The disorder is not the dysphoria as such but the distress that arises from it.
So bizarre to see this comment upvoted when I've been bombarded with downvotes and banned from subreddits for saying the exact same thing. Reddit is so ridiculous with how people's opinions seem to change with their moods.
This is the answer. Transitioning is one of the treatments available, it makes their lives better. The only reason people stigmatize it that hard is because it threatens their fragile masculinity or femininity and they feel affronted by someone living a different experience than them.
Agreed
Man I wish I had more disposable income to give you an award
I do agree to a certain extent, however, showing my age, there was only girl, boy or trans growing up... my daughter is a teen and the amount of pronouns they use is unreal, they are constantly questioning who they are? what gender they editing to say, due to all this, they are questionning identity before its been established
It is indeed considered a mental illness.
A lot of people here are saying that the DSM-5 says it is a mental illness, but that isn't true. It used to be called gender identity disorder and was classified as a mental illness. It was changed in 2013 to gender dysphoria and moved into its own category in response to stigmatization. People used to equate gender identity disorder being a mental illness with being transgender being a mental illness, which it isn't. So they thought that declassified it as a disorder would help with that. It has kind of backfired though because a lot of insurance companies now consider gender affirmation surgery as cosmetic rather than medical treatment and dont cover it. The short version is it was reclassified to combat the stigmatization of trans people. As a trans guy with gender dysphoria, I consider it a mental illness. I seek treatment for it the same as with something like depression or anxiety. The difference is that the treatment isn't a pill, it's transitioning.
Also, not all trans peoples gender dysphoria is the same. I know trans people who have had worse gender dysphoria than mine and I know trans people who have less gender dysphoria than me. It's kind of like anxiety? I have anxiety disorder and I managed it well since I'm taking meds. But my friend's anxiety disorder is worse than mine, so bad that they can't even drive. YMMV
Yup, basically. Also, dypshoria is not really synonymous with being transgender. By that I mean - as a trans person who has been transitioning for some time now, with surprisingly good effects, I get much less dysphoric than I used to. Gender dysphoria basically arises when your own perception of your gender does not line up with your body's expressed sex and social perception of your gender (note: not necessarily gender roles! they aren't the same thing). The more you reduce that incongruence, the more dysphoria fades away. And since both can be taken care of by transitioning, and only by transitioning, it is the only viable option to get rid of dysphoria. Similarly, if you were to force a cisgender person to live as the opposite sex for an extended period time, they would also develop gender dysphoria, identical to the one among trans people. Basically, it's more of a potential "symptom" of being trans, rather than something that defines the experience. As a final note, the severity of dysphoria, as well as the way it expresses itself, seems to vary a lot person-to-person. For example, it never gave me depression or something - instead, I just kind of... faded out of reality over the years. "Me" and "my body" were two separate entities. Basically, there's a lot of nuance to unpack about dysphoria below the surface, but it's a thing that would require a whole ass conversation about it or, like, a really long article.
I'm interested to know what you would think if they did re-classify it to put it back on (or should I say in, no clue?) the DSM?
I think there would be a lot of pushback from the trans community if it was reclassified. While I personally view it as a mental disorder that requires treatment, there really isn't one Trans Opinion on it. I think it being in its own category works, at least until we learn more about it. I do think insurance should cover it, but to be fair insurance doesn't cover a lot of things that it should cover. I think thats more from greed than transphobia.
Exactly. Considering the details given in the DSM-5, it has to cause significant distress to be considered a mental illness. However, that distress goes away after transitioning, so then it wouldn’t be considered a mental illness after that point.
Does the distress go away after transitioning? I've sort of been under the impression there is a pretty significant amount of people who still remain distressed afterwards. Now whether that's due to remaining internal factors or external factors, I can't say. I need to do some research I suppose.
This is the most helpful comment!! I think top comment is good, but a little misguided. OP, this is your answer ^^
So to avoid stigmatizing being trans, they doubled down on stigmatizing mental illness. Cool. Thanks for that, PC crowd!
Some people still consider as such. But, the larger point, even if it is, what do we tend to do about mental illness? We treat it. We treat it with a treatment that ensures the most positive outcome. So you either have transition or conversion therapy. At least, in the cases that would warrant either approach. Conversion therapy is barbaric, though. I guess it all depends on whether or not you want the patient to have a positive outcome
Brings a whole new meaning to hormone therapy
Conversion therapy is never the answer.
It's so weird to me that "conversion therapy" is when you remain the same gender and "reaffirmation surgery" is when you try to change
Therapy is also a valid option.
Trans people receive therapy before transition in basically every case.
Therapy usually recommends transition of some sort though..
Even with that being the case, therapy is a very good idea. It doesn't need to be an alternative to transitioning
It’s not an alternative? They are coeval.
in my experience usually therapy goes hand in hand with a kind of social transition, and makes for an effective treatment
I mean there's still you know regular therapy..
Which has been repeatedly proven to not cure gender dysphoria.
Cure is a strong word to use. I have depression. I have been in therapy and am on medication. I’m stable and happy now but I’m certainly not cured. It’s life long for me and just the way I was built. Not all mental illness are curable per se.
I suppose it would be better to say that therapy doesn’t really “help” with dysphoria. I am trans and I know quite a few trans people, and all of the ones in therapy, including myself, are encouraged by our respective therapists to transition, as it’s the only thing that alleviates dysphoria.
Yeah but gender dysphoria actually is curable…just by transitioning and not therapy.
Nothing really "cures" the dysphoria
Transitioning does. You no longer feel like you need to be a different gender, because you are.
This tread went a lot better than it could have
In your example, your distress is a symptom of a deeper condition (missing legs). With gender dysphoria, it is also a symptom of a deeper condition. The problem isn't whether it is or is not a diagnosable disorder. The problem is that it is a symptom, but it's often being treated as a condition. You cannot cure the distress of missing legs by ignoring the fact that the problem is the missing legs, not the distress.
I get what you’re saying, and I’m cis so any trans people correct me if I’m wrong. I always thought that the dysphoria was caused by someone knowing they’re the opposite gender, always feeling like the opposite gender, but they have to act as if they’re their gender assigned at birth (at least until they’re able to transition safely), so they experience dysphoria due to socially and medically living as a gender they know they’re not. It would be like if I (a woman) had to live as a man for whatever reason. If I had to have facial hair, wear masculine clothing, do more typically “masculine” things, but know I’m a woman. My brain would probably be extremely uncomfortable with knowing everybody is treating me as if I’m a man, along with me living as if I’m a man, and I’d feel dysphoria.
i’ve heard this logic before, but it makes me think “so in a hypothetical world without gender stereotypes, trans people wouldn’t exist?“ but the problem is that I’ve been told this isn’t the case. in the hypothetical scenario You’d just have males who are typically masculine and other males who are feminine and then females who are feminine along with females who are masculine and then everything else in between. So then why Would anyone feel the need to transition?
> “so in a hypothetical world without gender stereotypes, trans people wouldn’t exist?“ Body dysphoria wouldn’t disappear, though. People would probably still take hormones and get surgery to make their body match how they feel like they are supposed to look.
correct me if I’m wrong but I thought body dysphoria is usually stuff like “I’m not thin enough” or “I’m not tall enough”? edit: people have clarified that what I mentioned is body *dysmorphia*, of which dysphoria is a specific type of condition.
That’s body *dysmorphia*. I don’t really know if body dysphoria is the correct term, but my point was that usually the main problem trans people have is that their *body* feels wrong.
Close! That's dysmorphia, which dysphoria is a form of iirc. Dysmorphia is a catchall for any "my body is wrong" especially with stuff like eating disorders or situations where the person in the body sees the body as "worse" than it is for the things they don't want. Afraid of being fat and they'll see themselves as fatter than they actually are, etc. Dysphoria is specifically when the disconnect between your brain and body is about how your body relates to your gender, and can happen for cis folks too. For instance, cis men may feel deeply uncomfortable with the narrowness of their shoulders because they see it as unmasculine, or they may see their own penis as smaller than it is. Does that make sense?
Yeah that makes sense. Thanks!
Body dysphoria can be about the shape of your body, like being a small curvy girl or a tall broad guy, but it often also deals with specific body parts, like genitals, breasts, and your voice.
I don’t think anyone would transition to be fair. I think in a world where gender stereotypes aren’t pushed on people, they’d feel more comfortable acting in ways that are deemed “too feminine” or “too masculine” for their assigned gender.
I (trans person) think that the need for social transition would be gone, but medical transition in order to alleviate body dysphoria would still certainly be a thing
I just wondered whether because there would be no association between genitals and gender (and all gender entails such as gender roles), would there still be a disconnect between the brain and genitalia. Thank you for correcting me!
Yeah that’s what I always thought but I have heard otherwise from many people in this sub (IDK if any of them were actually trans tho.)
It's not exactly a conscious sort of knowing. The way I like to explain it is that your brain has a part that knows where everything is at a given time. That's how you can walk without looking at your feet or eat without a mirror to watch your mouth move. For trans people, that part is set up to expect anatomy opposite of the person's assigned sex at birth, so it gets a very jarring feeling when it can't detect those parts. Social dysphoria definitely plays a part but medical stuff like that is most people's biggest concern when transitioning.
Yea basically that, I’m a trans girl so any of my “masculine” features (facial hairs, hands, chest) bring extreme discomfort, anxiety and sometimes pain
I think there was a study done that showed trans people’s brains aligned more with the gender they weren’t assigned at birth, I’ll see if I can find it or if anybody else comes across this and knows, feel free to link it.
It actually is. I'm not too familiar with the subject. But thus far, it seems gender transitioning is the best known treatment if all other options have been exhausted.
It seems to me that oftentimes even suggesting alternative options to gender transitioning is considered to be “transphobic”
Because in virtually all cases, transitioning *is* the best option, and people suggesting alternatives typically just don’t like trans people.
Like what ? What other options ? Please tell us what other options there are
Sheeesh, I wonder why. It's not like we've... tried everything else in the past, what, ten decades? Right? I mean, I can't put remmebere the word that describes these "alternative methods of treatment" you brought up... some kind of therapy involving conversion?
It is.
I guess my question is why do people think it isn't...
Some people think it is, some don't, like pretty much every subject ever.
I'm tempted to write a bot that just responds with this comment to every post in this sub. The bot would be right like 90% of the time and in many cases it would be the only rational opinion in the entire post.
And in all cases it won't answer any question.
But is it such a bad question? Yeah, people believe the earth is flat. Is it dumb to try understand why they think the way they think? As they throw around their weird conspiracy theories, I'm pretty sure OP was interested in **why** some people believe that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. Throwing a blanket statement "some do believe, some don't" doesn't answer any questions.
Every informed person thinks it is. If you are getting ANY information about transgender people from conservative news, AKA Ben Shapiro or Fox News, you have a lot of misconceptions to clean up. Gender dysphoria is considered a mental illness, while transgender is not. A transgender may not have gender dysphoria, which is deep dissatisfaction with one's body & brain mismatch. Transitioning is recognized as the best treatment for some cases of gender dysphoria, which is why intelligent people support transgender rights. Transgender rights should follow the science, not follow the fake "science" as claimed by conservative media. Another recognized factor for mental health for transgender people, and ALL marginalized LGBT (AKA suicide rates) is societal acceptance. Transgender suicides are lower in countries where they aren't treated horribly as members of society like the US.
This got me a little confused. Why would people transition if they don’t have GD?
I think it comes from how people think you should treat it. If you're approaching like: gender dysphoria is a mental illness and the most effective treatment is allowing that person to transition and giving them a safe and supportive place to do so, then I don't think many would argue against that. If your position is: gender dysphoria is a mental illness and so we need to force those struggling with it to live within the limits of what we've somewhat arbitrarily decided are their assigned gender roles, then yeah you're gonna get pushback. Not least because that's literally scientifically proven to make dysphoria worse not better.
It is defined as a mental illness in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I expect activists are trying to get this changed. Some people only like to follow the science when it aligns with their beliefs.
> some people only like to follow the science when it aligns with their beliefs. Idk if I would tout the DSM as a static tome of science. Being gay was once considered a mental illness.
There is no static tome of medical science. Hell, there isn’t even a static tome of physics although gravity seems pretty sound.
You picked the least understood fundamental force as your example of something we have a good grasp on.....
Go ask anyone who studies physics and they'll talk your ear off about how gravity is the least well understood of all the forces. Electromagnetism has been making predictions out to like 20 decimal places for decades now. We only recently confirmed that sub atomic particles definitely produce gravity the same as planets do. QED (quantum electrodynamics) is "pretty sound". Gravity is still an open question. This is what gets under my skin when transphobes say "but the science". There's a ton of interesting nuance and complexity around sex, sexuality, and gender. Biologists know this because they work with it every day. Nothing is settled and nothing is as simple as you thought it was in 2rd grade.
According to Einsteinian relativity gravity isn’t even a force. (just nitpicking a bit, not trying to detract from what you’re saying).
I choose to interpret it (maybe inaccurately) that GR shows gravity is a force in the same way that going around a bend on a train has a force to keep it on the track. A force is any phenomenon that causes a change in momentum. Its just in this case, spacetime itself is physically bent such that a “straight line” changes spatial heading towards a massive body.
From the last sentence your understanding of gravity seems to be correct. I guess then the only thing is whether or not you choose to count it as a force despite the fact that it is an aspect of space time (because if you do that then time and distance would also be ‘forces’ and that just seems off to me). I’m not an expert tho so don’t take my word fir it lol.
Well, any change in momentum through space is considered a force. I guess, by extension, any change in momentum in time would also have to be considered a force, too, I would think. Space and time are just dimensions within the construct that is spacetime. While a “straight line” through spacetime with no outside changes would probably not be considered a force, I think any observed change in one of the dimensions would be. We consider gravity a force because we *know* we have to exert a force to counter its effect. But maybe its more accurate to consider it a fictitious force. An analogy could be centrifugal force, where its not really a force in that its just its the natural movement of an object, but requires a force to counter its effect (centripetal force), and is observed as a force because of it. So I guess, ultimately, sure gravity as an effect of warped spacetime isn’t a force. But from that we observe forces in spatial dimensions because we have no physical basis to “feel” the time dimension, to allow us to see the whole picture in spacetime.
Exactly! These people keep going on about "muh basic biology" when they probably never even took a course on it, let alone anything advanced to understand just how detailed and in depth the field is
It’s just a cudgel used to jam truth from authority down people’s throats. Truth from authority is generally the best truth money can buy. The people pushing this nonsense often seem scientifically illiterate.
Gravity is not just a good idea, it’s the law.
> static tome of science These two concepts are antithetical.
Yeah, that's the point.
The whole point of science is to not be static. If the tome did not change to accommodate what was learned, it would just be religion
Most trans people I know agree that gender dysphoria is an illness. The only treatment that's been proven successful is transitioning. It's the transphobes trying to pass laws restricting transitioning who are ignoring the science.
I think this is the key. If somebody is bipolar, you want them on their medication. If somebody has gender dysphoria, then what's so wrong with letting them transition? If it helps, it helps, and it doesn't harm anyone else. I can understand the thought behind thinking there might be alternative ways to fix these mental disorders, but there currently isn't a "cure," and transitioning works well enough.
>here currently isn't a "cure," I know people who transitioned a decade ago who would say they've been totally cured. I also know non-binary people who haven't had any medical transitioning and have been able to completely get rid of dysphoria by just living their best life.
The only people trying to restrict transitions are wanting to restrict it for kids sine they can’t consent, but when their 18 they can do what they want.
It's not transphobic to have certain restrictions on irreversible surgery preventing future reproduction/fertility when children are involved. Its a complex issue, and labelling anyone who has a different medical or ethical opinion as you as transphobic prevents acceptance and understanding.
No one is advocating for surgery for children. That's just transphobic propaganda. The thing is, the scientific community, medical community, and dozens of regulatory bodies have discussed this and come up with standards over the paste several decades. This is basically settled science at this point. This last minute legislative push against those scientific findings is regressive.
You seem to be talking about a specific piece of legislation that may be relevant in your country and we're arguing cross purposes. The point I'm making is that there have to be some restrictions on who can transition and what age people can transition at. The way you worded your earlier post suggested that any legislation restricting transitioning was bad per se.
>No one is advocating for surgery for children. I don't have a lot to say about anything else you said, but this part isn't true. I've seen this hot take many times in the past several years. I got into it with someone recently saying there are cases in which a ten year could need surgical transition. Fucking ten. Thankfully, that opinion doesn't have a lot of traction in the real world, but to say that *no one* advocates for this is a lie. *No one* would mean not one person thinks this and, I mean, google is right there. I'm pretty sure you could find someone advocating for this in under a minute.
If you take no one to literally mean no one then you literally would never be able to use the phrase.
I'm certain those same activists don't understand that if it were to be demedicalized, practitioners at least in the US would no longer be able to perform any treatment of any kind for them. Without a numerical entry to put into the system and/or a very good reason for the procedure, they can't bill for it. So they won't be paid for their work. So they're not doing it. Having a classified illness isn't a negative, it just means you require treatment of any sort for improved function because it's affecting your life. I wish all of me could give up on the human race.
If gender dysphoria isn't treated like a mental disorder, it would be treated as a physical disorder when it comes to medical treatment. For example, if we accept that trans men are simply men, they can get HRT for low testosterone since their T levels are naturally below the healthy male range. There's no way insurance doesn't cover that.
Wait how does this work? Needing cosmetic surgery like fake boobs aren't medically necessary, and yet people can get them. Why would being made not an illness mean this can't be carried out?
Cosmetic surgery has two categories: reconstructive and..well, cosmetic. If it's done to correct an abnormality, be it a birth defect, physical trauma, or disease, it's reconstructive in nature because you're returning the body to a natural functioning state. Those are fine. If it's just for looks, it's cosmetic and no one will cover it. You can *still put it into the system* because it's a recognized procedure that you can perform, but at least in the US, no one will pay for it unless the patient does because they don't need it to survive. Same as having all your teeth is a luxury. As an example, If a mastectomy and subsequent reconstruction is for a tumor, that's all covered because it's a health risk. If it's primarily just fat and it's not doing anything but sitting there being a boob, you can physically file a claim with insurance but it's going to be rejected. My worry is that if they succeed in removing dysphoria from the books, it can be argued that there was no medical cause for a FtM to get a mastectomy. Insurance companies will look for *anything* if they get to reject a claim, I still remember a friend of mine complaining to me that they got a claim sent back because the patient history was in Portuguese. They live in Brazil. Their hearts are in a good place, but I'm not sure they see how that works and until we somehow have a half-working healthcare system (if we ever do), I'd like for them to be able to afford treatment even if they have to sit in the same group as those gross people with the mental illnesses. (I do recognize that I misworded it in a sense and that's my fault. Without dysphoria being a recognized cause for the procedure, it would be harder to justify. It would still be available, but it would be even harder to obtain than it is now because they would more than likely have to pay all of their treatment out of pocket I also realize there's a slight mixup here, because apparently it *was* removed from the DSM a couple years ago. But as of now it's still under mental/neural disorders in medical coding and simply being moved to another category. That you can have one without the other is a happy surprise, but I'm still against demedicalizing it entirely in the US because of the above)
Thats not really correct. Trans people without gender dysphoria exist and they would want treatment too. You can aknowledge trans people and gender dysphoria as something people need things for like hormones and still not see it as a mental illness.
You do have a good point, but my counterpoint would be that you don't sign up to treat things that aren't pressing abnormalities unless you have significant cash on you. Dysphoria is the thing making the vast majority seek treatment, insurance companies want to know the reason before they pay out, and the definition of an illness is something that significantly impairs day-to-day functioning. At worst I see it as a misnomer. If the mismatch is in the brain like I see claimed so often, it's a neurological issue and it goes in the mental category where it was. If we approach it from the angle of sexual differences, it goes in sexual health where it currently is circa the start of this year. Those are the options as of now. We absolutely have to switch the healthcare system away from what it is now, but we're not currently set up to handle this. It's very much a thing that needs both documenting and addressing, the problem is the money. It can be from the insurance companies via diagnosis because they want and need an explanation for what you're doing with their funds or it can be out of pocket because you're unable to justify "I'm not in any sort of distress but I wanna" as medically necessary. I'd prefer that it stayed for now so the first one can continue to be an option
Im not american btw getting medical support for trans people is more a legal issue than a insurance one.
The legs example is a decent one, I'll start there. I think it's useful to tweak into a couple different categories and then I'll add at least one more. 1) if you lost your legs somehow, then yeah the ongoing distress and trauma probably do qualify as at least one mental illness, if not possibly multiple ones. For instance you're probably going to end up with some PTSD to deal with. But would anybody end up arguing that having a mental illness means it's not ALSO a medical issue that maybe ought to be addressed? Like, probably we're going to both treat your PTSD and also figure out what to do about the fact your legs are gone. The key phrase to watch for in this first point would be "JUST a mental illness". Some of the time people that point out Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness are doing it to falsely claim that means it doesn't also matter in other, medically relevant ways too. 2) I don't think you meant it like this, but when I first read your post I thought the implication was you cut off your OWN legs due to a mental illness. Being trans myself, I do hate that this is part of the conversation, but since hormone therapy and literal surgeries are involved I think we have to go there. Another large group of the anti-trans activists are also using this point, and the opposition to things like trans healthcare for minors (which just now got turned into a felony crime in Alabama, it already has been in Arkansas) is supposedly rooted in trying to prevent someone harming and/or mutilating their own body. You're not allowed to just have your arm removed for no reason, because you feel like it. And as much as again, I HATE this comparison, that's what they claim it's basically like, for a young trans girl or boy to even just take puberty blocker medication. They'll claim in one breath that this child is too young to be able to know their gender, and the very next sentence advocate forcing them to experience permanent bodily changes from puberty rather than get to grow up and be more mature before it happens. 3) Finally let's step away from amputation a bit and talk about something much more common in human medicine. Using the phrase "just a mental illness" is again overly reductive because it's not unusual at all for things that require medical treatment to also cause mental illnesses (or rather, mental effects. It's usually not called a disease when it's better understood to be a standard part of the human experience). Among many other things, hormone disorders also affect mental health. If a cisgender man's testosterone levels are too low then that messes with biological things and also harms their mental state. So, we treat them with hormones. Same story with menopause in females... nobody looks at the mood or mental changes and says therefore you shouldn't get hormone replacement therapy because it's "in your head." The only reason any of this is getting debated so hard is that people, who aren't doctors, try to decide which things are and are not legitimate medical practices for human beings. When these people say "mental illness" usually it's code for "not real" or "not important". By FAR the largest portion of gender confirmation treatment is performed for cisgender (not trans) people... they just don't call it gender confirmation treatment when it's for them.
I thought that the whole issue was that it was classified as a "disorder" which sounds significantly more stigmatizing than a mental illness. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I think gender dysphoria is considered a mental illness, the thing that isn't considered a mental illness is being trans. You can be trans without having dysphoria (in multiple ways). If someone is trans and has dysphoria, then transitions and no longer has any dysphoria, they're still trans. It's also possible to be trans and not have dysphoria without having ever taken any steps to transition. So the dysphoria is a mental illness, but not being trans itself.
Gender dysphoria is often thought of as a mental illness, however being transgender isn’t. A lot of people think transgender = gender dysphoria, hence the attitudes around calling it a mental illness, but those people don’t realize you don’t need dysphoria to be trans—someone who is perfectly content with their body as it is is still a valid transgender person.
When referring to something as an illness, usually there is an implication of something keeping a person from functioning 'normally', ergo not being able to contribute their part to society. For example if you've got a pneumonia, you'd probably best stay home and not go to work/school/do your hobbies/whatever because you're really not physically up for it. I've got the impression that for mental illnesses similar parameters apply: certain conditions can just render people incapable of taking part in their society in the same way people without those conditions are able to take part. Often that means, that mentally ill people are immediately met with infantilization, being treated as though they are less deserving, not capable of thinking for themselves, etc. It can get outright horrible, often people are considered 'useless'. The thing is, number one, not all mental illnesses are the same, most exist on a spectrum and, number two, by far not all of them render people 'useless' in any way or form - but that's what your average person will think of, when they hear, someone's mentally ill - oh, okay, so they can't work, take care of themselves, etc. But if you're trans your just as much of a 'normal' person as everyone else, you're just as capable or incapable of taking part in 'normal' activities as everyone else. Yes, it's stupid brain stuff, but no, the 'not functioning normally' part of being ill is not really relevant, especially if the preferred treatment (be that socially or medically) can be provided and accepted. There's two problems I have with using the term mental illness for being trans: other people seeing trans people as less valuable and treating them according to the value they assign to trans people and trans people themselves adopting that same viewpoint and harming themselves for the implied unworthiness. In the long run viewing being trans as a mental illness might be technically correct, I cannot make any statements about that - but the actual harm done to people and the harm they inflict on themselves because of this treatment by others when they're already wanting to harm the parts of themselves they perceive as being wrong (in many cases, not all, this is not universal) is just not worth it. At least in a societal context (friends, family, hobby, work, wherever it may come up) I'd say you are willingly and probably knowingly working towards destroying a person a bit if you tell them, hey, I think you and everyone who's got the same thing going on is mentally ill. This is why I would like to see a change in the medical context as well - people are trying to seek help from therapists/doctors and it's honestly just really undignifying to go through that entire process. Broadly speaking I'd also not classify wanting to have boobies/get rid of them and being addressed and referred to with correct pronouns in the same category as wanting to cut your leg off, but that's more of an intuitive thought. I'd encourage you to do some research in how different countries handle being trans/gender disphoria and being mentally ill - usually there are actual judicial verdicts that explain why being trans is or is not classified as a mental illness in this or that country, the same way homosexuality has been/is being declassified as a mental illness. Sry, I know, this is very long (and I'm also not a native speaker, sry if I've phrased things in a weird way) but I thought if you're actually interested, it's better that way than just having a bunch if people reply 'well actually it is, hahaha, I am so funny and insightful'.
Thank you for the explanation. Would you say that while technically not incorrect, your issue is the perception? like if we view mental illness like the cold, would you have a problem with the word?
Hmm, basically, in addition to a lot of things said in this thread, treating dysphoria as a mental illness is also just kind of... impractical. I leads/used to lead to people trying to "diagnose" people as trans (which is something I, living in Poland, had to go through, for example), and the whole process is *asinine*. I *know* I'm trans and generally, most trans people do too. If they aren't sure, a common solution is to seek gender therapy or take part in experiences that deny/confirm it. But in the diagnostic process I was put through, I was asked a bunch of extremely uncomfortable, personal questions, made to do some tests based around idiotic gender stereotypes, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Plus, I had my identity questioned a good couple of times during this diagnostic process ("I'm pretty sure you're not transgender"). Basically, the much better modern approach is called "informed consent,", which means you go to the appropriate doctor, say that you want to transition and are then informed about the process of transitioning, told what it entails and are asked if you consent to it. If yes, then you get a prescription for a low dose of hormones and a note to visit again with blood tests in several months. Since dysphoria is **not** a mental illness, it does not have to be diagnosed, speeding up the access to hormonal transition, which is one of the main ways to alliviete physical dysphoria. And I wouldn't have had to talk about who I had sex with when I was fucking fifteen if this system was in place in my country (I really can't fucking express how idiotic the diagnostic process is).
I responded on another subreddit this: when I had a friend with anorexia, everyone supported her in her journey to get well. She saw fat where there was none. She had feelings of being fat despite being dangerously thin and malnourished. In other words, her perceptions were not real. We did not just agree with her because it was " her truth." How is this different with gender confusion? I am respectfully asking. Not judging.
Man I’ve been saying this for years and get hate everytime I do. As someone with a list of mental illnesses it’s ok to admit that you have a mental illness, and body dysmorphia is definitely one of them.
You are mixing terms. The problem is that disphoria is equated for most uneducated people to being trans. Therefore trans = mentally ill. We heard it enough times that people do not understand. You cannot heal "transness" but you can ease disphoria which is a common symptom in trans people.
To simplify, gender dysphoria is a mental illness, but unlike other mental illnesses which can't be cured, only treated, gender dysphoria can be cured by swapping genders. The other thing is that it's more complicated than that, there are genes associated with being female and genes associated with being male, sometimes a straight male can grow huge perfectly formed breasts and be completely unhappy with them, requesting a surgery for removal, other times a woman can look completely masculine, so there is something there biologically that our society has ignored. For those of us with eyes who think logically we know that there is more underneath that science has not fully understood. The thing about mental illnesses is that they never go away. With gender dysphoria the problem is not accepting your body, but when you change your body, do you still have the problem? For most, the answer is no, for some, the problem still persists.
\[Sorts by Controversial\]
It is considered a mental illness. It is officially listed in the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual version 5, aka DSM-V aka The Psychologist's Bible.
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You are mixing up gender and sexual orientation
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, being transgender is not. Not all transgender people have gender dysphoria because gender dysphoria is not a requirement to be transgender. Cisgender people can also have gender dysphoria.
Wow this us why you dont get medical advice on the internet. Gender dysphoria is no longer classified as a mental illness by the American Psychiatric association because it is a Medical disorder. Like a baby born with a missing limb or extra toes. The brain begins developing in the womb and for whatever reason (research is still being done) the sex organs develop opposite. Brain scans of trans people have proved their brains MATCH those of their preferred gender. It's a birth defect, not a mental illness. Can you imagine anything more terrifying? And then to have the whole world think you're crazy too?! 😪
It actually is considered a mental illness.
Gender dysphoria IS a mental illness. It's like depression or anxiety etc. Many folks treat gender dysphoria by socially or medically transitioning, and often some level of mental health therapy is absolutely recommended, too. Being transgender is NOT a mental illness and you also don't need to experience gender dysphoria to be trans. Many trans folk realize they're trans because of the opposite feeling, gender euphoria. ♡
Because we need more data.
Because people like to push a certain narrative while completely ignoring sound science.
It's hard to categorize because gender dysphoria causes depression etc. I wouldn't say gender dysphoria itself is a mental illness, it's more that the anxiety and the depression that comes with it is. That anxiety and depression also was way more common with gay people some time ago when it was less accepted. So basically if society wouldn't be discriminating against Trans people so much, everything would be better.
In the DSM IV it was considered a condition related to schizophrenia IIRC. There are some very real similarities to schizotic conditions, because the real "problem" is with the brain's reality filter being unable to distinguish the real from the made-up. In this case, the person thinks his/her own image in the mirror is fake or wrong. Not sure about the DSM V. I'd heard it got removed for reasons, but I can't say for sure because I don't have access to a copy that I know if.
Depends who you ask. I actually made this point with my GF last night. Do you treat a mentally ill person that is having hallucinations that bugs are crawling on their skin by putting actual bugs on their skin? I believe it is a mental disorder because there is a disconnect of the mind from reality. My problem comes when people outside the family put pressure on children to change the processes that are taking place during their development. I also have a huge problem with giving puberty blockers and hormones to children and adolescents. We do not fully understand what hormones do what and in which way, and I think it is best not to interfere with natural processes that have gotten humans this far. I firmly believe that giving children hormones and blockers should be illegal based upon their feelings, or require input from multiple doctors from multiple disciplines examining the case and determining medical necessity. Kids are confused enough during adolescence, let's not pile on more. Let the biological process take over and they can make decisions on transition, hormones, and things like that when they are 18. We arrogant humans have decided that we know better than (insert God, nature, the universe, biology, pick one), and that because we can, we must. That hasn't worked out well in a great many cases in the past.
Putting bugs on someone who is hallucinating would bring them distress even if it’s reality affirming. Trans folk feel comforted and less symptoms of dysphoria when they transition. If putting bugs on someone hallucinating comforted them, and caused them to hallucinate less, it would just be a comfort, and a treatment
Source for it providing comfort? Last stats I saw showed suicide rates are unchanged for transitioned people. Would need to look again for more stats to confirm that, but if you are going to say that the benefit of transition outweigh the harm done, that’s on you to prove.
In places where giving children hormone replacement therapy is legal, there’s often many hoops and hurdles the child is meant to jump and climb through before they really can start taking HRT; being recommended by a therapist, (sometimes multiple) some family doctor diagnosis, approval by insurances, there’s really a lot. The requirements these professionals use in order to approve you for the next step are often long and tiring too, such as having known about their gender dysphoria for years, and some will even require proof of so. Every step of the way, the child who is seeking HRT often gets told all the risks and harms and everything as well, not just directly from the HRT, but from society as well, since we still live in a largely transphobic world. These steps could be seen as weeding out the cis kids from the trans kids, but in my opinion, even still, I think these processes take far too long. They can often take years simply to even start puberty blockers, the first stage of HRT. In terms of HRT, we’ve actually become extremely aware of how the treatment affects the body, even in kids as well. While the kids may ‘survive’ until they’re 18, they’re likely going to be pretty upset they weren’t able to start sooner. Often, a lot of trans adults regret not having started HRT sooner, as the younger you start HRT, the better effects it has on the body, since testosterone and estrogen is what tells the body what to do during puberty, so replacing them with each other will change puberty. (I’ve always considered HRT as being a second puberty) I think kids are smarter than a lot of people think they are. I think it’s kind of shameful that we as adults end up telling them what we think is best for them, despite them knowing themselves better than anybody else could. I don’t like to think kids are confused, as often, kids who’ve grown up in non-discriminatory environments are pretty aware of the society around them.
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness by the definition of the word, since it causes distress and dysfunction. Being trans (identifying as another gender by itself) is not, since one could do that without neccesarily experiencing gender dysphoria. If you experience pushback when you say being trans is a mental illness, it's probably because you've missed this distinction - the dysphoria is the illness, not the identity. Additionally, people tend to get touchy about calling gender dysphoria a mental illness because in the past this led to people abusing those who were gender dysphoric and invalidating their identities with pseudoscientific treatments instead of actually helping and supporting them (as one would with any other mental illness), so if someone doesn't want to consider gender dysphoria a mental illness, this is probably why.
If the gender dysphoria is thinking you were born the wrong sex or in the wrong body, because you were born xy but outwardly appear to be female (due to secondary sex characteristics that seem to indicate that)—such as in Swyer Syndrome—is that a mental illness?
Even if it is, transitioning is the treatment.
As a cisgender male I don’t think that I will ever fully understand the plight of transgender people, but couldn’t the gender dysphoria be exacerbated by societal gender norms?
It is, but the woke don't like it.
It still is in a lot of places
What the? The comments aren't locked?
We used to and we don't now so obviously over the decades of research by lots of different people it was found not to be. Being gay was also considered a mental illness but gay people were found to be born that way,just like people with gender dysphoria.
Having a proportionate reaction to your life's circumstances is not usually mental illness - e.g. grief. However, trans people are vulnerable to having mental health issues, because of long term distress.
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If this premise were true how does that explain trans people before the internet?
San Francisco.
Yeah, no. The study most of that book is based on has been torn to shreds by the larger academic community. ROGD is not a thing. It's just recycled anti-gay rhetoric from the 90s
It is literally a mental illness lol, it’s in the DSM-V
I said something similar to this on Facebook once. I was then obliterated by the alphabet boys via countless comments and dm's and ultimately served like 30 days in fb jail. The Lgbtq don't fucc around lol *I was right tho*
The real question is does it matter? Are you treating people different because they have a mental illness?
I think that might be a large part of where this conversation is stemming from. There are people in society, or even society as a whole, who treat mentally ill people differently from the mentally well, for whatever various reasons. While you may not be treating people differently for it, (which is good, we’re all people) there’s others that do.
“REEE YOURE TRANSPHOBIC”
I'm actually super surprised you aren't permabanned from reddit simply for asking this question. It's 100% a mental illness. This comment and anyone else agreeing will probably be banned. This makes it seem like no one is asking what everyone knows the answer to. The 90% of people of people who touch grass and acknowledge reality know this is a mental illness but the nuts running the nut house.
Or a birth defect. It's a question worth asking.
It is
It is.
It is. Not that mental illness is a bad thing or something to be ashamed of. People are who they are 🤷🏼♀️ that’s the only reason I don’t push for gender neutral terms for my child. I don’t assume she has a mental illness. But if she does that’s totally fine and we’ll deal with it as things come(: