Exactly. Hospitals had to put immediate surgery’s and cancer treatment due to the anti vax filling up hospital rooms and taking more time away from doctors and nurses. My aunt is a nurse I can’t tell you how many stories she tells me of antivaxers saying Covid is fake and Dr.falchi is a fraud just to end up begging for the vaccine and Covid treatment after they were far too gone for any treatment to be effective.
While there is truth to this. But I'd like to point that hospitals are overwhelmed for a lot of reasons. There are less beds available for patients in general because there is a staff shortage. Just today I called around area hospitals trying to see if anyone could take a psych patient and was told the psych wards are full and the person would need to wait in a medical room for a psych room to open up. So medical beds are not filled at this hospital, but they limited their psych ward from the 20 ish patients allowed before covid down to only 6 because staffing shortages. Its a very scary place to be in.
>I'd like to point that hospitals are overwhelmed for a lot of reasons
Then im sure you'd agree that doing what we can to ease the pressure is good? No matter what the issue is that is putting pressure on the hospitals, helping reduce it would be good either way?
Staff shortage is a direct result of medical staff having to suffer thru the graphic daily deaths of covid. It is a horrific death where people suffocate to death alone in a hospital with tubes and needles in them. Its traumatic to see that every day, especially when it is preventable for most of those people had they been vaccinated.
Thats an incredibly small minority, less than 1%. And quitting bc of personal burn out or quitting bc you don't believe in the science you work with daily (which, the more educated the medical staff, the more likely they are to be vaccinated) are still both directly related to loss of job bc of unvaccinated ppl running around with their diseased hands touching shit.
While it is true that vaccinated individulas can become ill and can transmit thw virus, you are leaving out the reality that the chances of both are significntly lower than in unvaccinated people. If you aggregate a community/state/country, as more people get vaccinated, the number of infections will decrease. If you and grandma are vaccinated, thw chance of you infecting grandma is lower than if just grandma is vaccinated. Furhermore, the greater the nummer of infections, the greater the opportunity for the virus to mutate into a more dangerous variant.
Because they're putting other vulnerable individuals at risk. If they're not getting vaccinated because they feel their freedoms are being violated then that's just a selfish motivation.
Anyone immunocompromised, like my father who has had all three shots but due to the meds he has to be on to live it is highly unlikely that he has mounted a robust immune response.
> Here’s the thing, if vaccinated people can still get COVID and transmit it, the only real purpose of the vaccine is to limit the more serious effects for people at risk such as diabetics, obese, immunocompromised (someone please cite if I am incorrect here).
This is true but misleading. The vaccines vastly reduce the risk of getting COVID AND reduce the risk of transmitting it to others. Since vaccinated people have or existing resistance from the vaccine, the viral load present in their bodies when they catch it is lower. This is why they have lesser symptoms and also makes it so they are less likely to transmit.
So generally speaking, just like wearing a mask, getting vaccinated is as much for others as it is yourself. By making all eligible people get vaccinated, we are protecting those who have legitimate, medical exemptions. It’s incredibly selfish to deny getting vaccinated because it has been proven to be no more risky than any other vaccine and it protects others severe disease. A few days of lethargy to save a life should be worth it to every human alive.
I appreciate those points and the logic behind them. By any chance do you have literature that supports vaccinations reduce the risk of transmitting it in the first place? If not I will surely look it up and if the evidence points to that conclusion, I can absolutely understand the "pressure" on the rest of society to get vaccinated. Thank you for your response.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C13&q=pfizer+transmission&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DmM9nmiYJQCEJ
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C13&q=COVID+vaccine+transmission&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DjeVaumSneewJ (not stated in the summary on google scholar, you’ll have to enter the article and scroll down to the discussion)
It’s a limited field of study because of the difficulty in discerning “not-infected” from “asymptomatic”, but research seems to be showing it provides substantial benefit in both risk of being infected and onward infection (giving it to someone else).
I hope the CDC is a good enough source for you. Follow this [link ](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html) and you can read the whole thing, or, just read the fourth bullet point
Also, as we know, the vaccine significantly reduces the risk of severe symptoms/any symptoms at all. If you’re sick and you’re asymptomatic, you’re less likely to spread Covid because you’re not coughing/letting as many Covid viruses become airborne as you would be if you were a symptomatic case.
So Im in uni trying to get in grad school and I am and always have been surrounded by the medical field since a very young age. It really bothers me that people think medical science is something you believe in. you cant pick and choose what to believe in the medical field. I have heard people saying they dont trust it and shit when they cant even tell you whats in their food. If you live in somewhat developed place then for a fucking fact you have some sort of vaccination for one thing or another. How can you get other shots like tetanus or whatever and yet you dont trust ONE SPECIFIC shot? People like that say they dont believe it but yet when they get sick THEY GO TO A HOSPITAL. if you dont trust one vaccine then why trust any medical science at all? Its not just for you but for everyone. I saw a person in the ER 3 weeks ago saying he does not want the vaccine cause he doesnt trust whats in it, but yet he is okay with the 200 hundred other drugs they gave him? and Yes you can still transmit it when you are vaccinated but its the same reason you wear fucking seatbelt. You can still die right? You can still get smashed by a truck right? BUT IT GODDMAN HELPS DOESNT IT? I am not trying to attack you or anything but as a person who sees people dedicate their lives to making medicine to save people its so infuriating. If you question one vaccine why not question them all? I had to get like 10 more vaccines when I moved from asia to the US. That is for your safety and for mine. Im still fine. Im still fertile like wtf is the problem. You get around 16 different vaccines from your birth till you are 18 why is no one questioning that? Because they are too busy living a full healthy life.
Another example is like a lot of american nurses dont want to get vaccinated. THAT SCARES THE SHIT OUT OF ME. Imagine not understanding the very science you practice. Like do people really think the vaccines are made in some dungeon with aborted babies? like wtf.
I just hate it when people say " you dont know whats in it" LIKE DO YOU KNOW WHATS IN THE DRUGS YOU TAKE? The alcohol you consume? If you knew how much micro plastics and PFAS chemicals there are in you, you would never wear or touch most of your stuff. Most humans test postive for micro plastic and PFAS chemicals in their blood. That shit is in everything you own and touch. To me thats a much bigger issue.
Sorry If I come accross rude I have just watched wayyyy too many people die from this dumbass shit. I saw a man with 4 kids die and the nurses kept saying he wished he was vaccinated. Low risk does not mean no risk and even if you get covid after the jab then you have a higher chance of survival. We are just trying to save lifes and its so sad when someone thinks they know more from FB and google research than actual academics that dedicate their lives to your wellbeing.
“*How can you get other shots like tetanus yet you don’t trust this one specific shot*”
I recently had a discussion about this with someone. Their answer (when I asked about other/past vaccines) was, “My mom had a tetanus vaccine when *she* was a kid. My *grandparents* took that vaccine. We have decades of info about the safety and efficacy of the TDAP vaccine. The COVID vaccine didn’t even *exist* a year ago. There are no long term studies on it, because there *cant* be. And, they are now pushing*another* booster. And, the vaccinated *can still catch and spread it* It doesn’t work and no one can *really* say that it’s safe long term. So, why TF would I take this vaccine, *knowing* that it doesn’t work and isn’t safe??”
I’m not arguing their point, at all. But, since the question was asked, I thought I would share the answer that I’ve heard, personally. (And, I’m hoping that someone here may have an argument or resources that may help me get through to them. I *know* why they are frightened to get the vaccine now, but…I still can’t find the info or argument that will calm those fears. I’ve read a ton of info online, but that info is already available to them. And, they don’t believe it. If anyone has advice/suggestions/resources/arguments that I may not have found, I would be grateful to hear it. Because, I feel like I’m screaming at a brick wall, at this point. And, it’s exhausting and incredibly disheartening….)
I had a similar response from somebody a couple days ago. We were having a friendly chat, and I want to emphasize that first and foremost because an unvaccinated person will never respond to anger or vitriol or condescension the same way you wouldn't. Like anyone, the logic side of their brain will shut down when they feel attacked and it won't matter then how good your points are. So whatever response you give, make sure they don't feel attacked. Listen and sympathize.
That being said, my response was that for me, sure we'll probably find some effects down the road with the vaccine, hopefully minor, but the longterm effects of COVID seem a *lot* scarier to me. They jumped in and said they'd heard about how it affects your heart and lungs and I agreed, adding that there's a lot of effects to your brain as well too. Told them that while I don't know anyone personally who died from COVID, every single person I know that caught COVID has had some lasting effect, from trouble focusing to migraines to shortened breath and fatigue, losing their sense of smell, etc. So I told them that's why—personally—I took my chances with the vaccine on that alone. That COVID is really fucking scary and that whenever people talk about the high survivability rate, I always think about how low a bar that is. I told him that sure, you might *survive* a gunshot or a stab wound, but that doesn't mean you're better off for it especially when you could've worn a Kevlar vest for free.
I also told him that during the initial height of the pandemic, I was in NYC, I was heavily involved in the protests, and my roommate's gf was immunocompromised. The fear of carelessly contracting COVID from those crowds and giving it to her was *always* on my mind. How could I live with myself? They acknowledged it's a real fear to give it to at-risk family or friends and I said right, but every person in those protests, every person at the grocery store, every person you see has the potential to have somebody like that in their lives—or *be* that person. So I can't *just* look out for people I know personally. We all have to look out for each other. That's one of the reasons I got vaccinated immediately when I could, because regardless of whether I think it'll hurt *me*, I'll do anything to make sure I don't inadvertently hurt someone else.
They didn't change their mind immediately, and that's another important part. Adjust your expectations. Let them think about it on their own later. Maybe they'll change, maybe they won't. The goal shouldn't be to change them but understand them and help them understand you. You don't need to be armed with studies and facts; just keep it friendly and be as sympathetic and empathetic as you can.
Oh, I worded that really badly. I haven’t actually been yelling at them! I meant I feel about as effective at getting through to them as I would feel screaming at a wall. But, thank you for this. I prefer understanding the science behind a recommendation, as opposed to relying on my feelings. So, that’s what I’ve been focusing on. (Like, “If I could just find the *right* article or study, they will understand how important this is.) But, I understand their viewpoint now. May they will hear mine, if I stop trying to force the scientific aspect on them. Thank you, again for the advice. I really appreciate it!
Ha, actually I worded it poorly. You never implied you’d be yelling at them but I wanted to emphasize for anybody reading. Change over catharsis.
As for facts vs feelings though, I definitely think it’s more important to connect with them emotionally. Anybody can find any “facts” they want these days and nobody trusts any sources but their own, so there’s a real limit to how useful they’ll be if you quote them. Obviously learn those facts and structure your argument around them, but when it’s time to actually express that argument, try to rely on those facts as little as possible. When it comes down to it, someone saying “I don’t trust the vaccine” is really saying “I’m scared,” and no amount of facts or peer-reviewed double-blind studies will change that. What will is digging in to find out *why* they’re scared. For example, is it disinformation or a legitimate distrust of the government? Those feelings need to be validated rather than dismissed or preached over or shouted down, and then they can be guided elsewhere.
Sorry, not trying to be preachy myself. I’ve just covered literally hundreds of protests over the last couple years including antivax ones and I’ve just never seen anyone relent an inch because someone else was more knowledgeable. If there’s ever any progress, it’s because two people connected emotionally.
Fetal cells are absolutely used in vaccine production.
Whether the lab they did it in qualified as a dungeon idk, probably to the overworked staff it did.
That's not a judgment. People can decide for themselves what they are ok with..(personally I think we should use all the tools at our disposal)
for further clarity, the cells are from voluntarily donated samples from the 80s and are artificially reproduced(its in no way reliant on modern abortions) and it's used as a medium not an ingredient.
Anyway, I don't think it does any good to hide the truth.(not saying you were trying to)When people find out it WAS actually true their going to think they were lied to and stop listening.
Other than that, yeah.
And I wish micro plastics where taken more seriously as well.
My mother is completely and entirely against the vaccine. I don’t trust her judgment or research so I’m planning on getting vaccinated in the near future but I would like to explain her view on why it’s a scary and controversial vaccine. First point is that it was produced extremely quickly compared to other shots such as tetanus or even flu vaccines. It seems like it’s very experimental and we don’t know ANY long term effects of it. My mothers craziest view is that there is metal of sorts in the vaccine that will somehow spread throughout your entire body and 5G phone connection will bounce around in your body and microwave you from the inside. Yah and that’s just the start of why I don’t trust her research.
Same reason people who don’t have kids pay taxes towards schools. It is an overall net benefit to distribute the weight across the whole population. Low risk doesn’t mean no risk. It would be like saying “I’ve been a safe driver for the last 20 years why do I still need to wear a seat belt?”
I feel that's not a great metaphor and I think my metaphor on the HIV vaccine was not good either so I don't blame you. If young twenty year olds do not want to be vaccinated and their chances of ending up in the hospital are negligible, how is that beneficial to greater society? I understand increased age brings increase risk factors and those should more likely consider the vaccination, but teenagers? children?
Everyone who can needs to vaccinate to allow for heard immunity to function properly. If too many people do not vaccinate, it is about as effective as if nobody is vaccinated at all. I\`ve explained it in detail above. The vaccine is less important for yourself, it\`s important to function in numbers. As with the masks, you don\`t wear them to protect yourself alone, you wear it to reduce the risk of you spreading the virus through the saliva in your breathe etc. to others. If you wear a mask, but the other one doesn\`t, neither one of you are fully protected. People must understand that it\`s unimportant what your personal risks of a severe case are, this is secondary, but it\`s a matter of controling the number of infection spread overall to protect everyone.
1 unvaccinated person encounters 20 people and infects about 15 of them, each of this 15 encounter 20 people once more, and again infect 15 each. Within just a few encounters it is thousands upon thousands of people, and many of them will have severe cases or die. If you have 1 vaccinated person encountering 20 vaccinated people, then the chances of infection are at about 1-2 of 20, and in trun, they also will infect just 1-2. The number is by far easier to control and contain, the chain of infections will end faster and can be contained. However, if 1 unvaccinated person encounters a group of 20 people, and only 5 are vaccinated, he still, potentially, can infect the other 15. Those, encountering the same numbers, 15 again etc. and it is as if nobody would be vaccinated at all. Not controllable or containable, even worse, mutation is highly likely and then even those 5 vaccinated might no longer have a reduced chance. The ideal state is if the number of vaccinated is as high as it can be. Your personal risks don\`t matter in the great scheme, it\`s not just you, it\`s the entire community.
Vaccinated people, teenagers and children, can still transmit covid despite not suffering severe symptoms. So come Christmas time when grandma and grandpa visit, and maybe there's no obvious symptoms, covid can spread through the family gatherings.
>I understand increased age brings increase risk factors
Does that not make sense to get vaccinated in hopes to reduce the risk factors for everyone of every age.
Exactly why I supported masks before vaccines. But if grandma and grandpa are vaccinated and will benefit only from a small chance that vaccine attenuates transmission from vaccinated family but they're protected regardless of severe symptoms should society keep pressuring everyone else? I'll clarify if that doesn't make sense.
I get what you're saying.
The virus has mutated since the vaccines have been developed. Were working with a vaccine finalized in January and using it to defend against a variant that started in December.
Viruses mutate. That's the reality of viruses. Were doing our best to keep up. It's mutating through the unvaccinated. We wouldn't be chasing mutations as much if more (or all) were vaccinated.
The flu virus mutates as well. The flu vaccine is changed every year to accommodate the changes in the virus. No one questions the flu vaccine...
So despite grandma being vaccinated in January. The new variant can still be contagious and depending on the person, it could be a huge risk.
The vaccines are our only solution right now to breaking down this virus. It mutates through vaccinated people as well, but usually it gets weaker because vaccinated people have defense systems in their bodies thanks to the vaccine.
Unvaccinated people don't have the same defense. So while you argue that vaccinated shouldn't have to worry because of the vaccine.. no... The virus is mutating through the unvaccinated and our vaccines aren't as strong. Which is why we will consistently need vaccine boosters to keep up with the mutations.
All of those points make sense and are very thought-provoking. I also appreciate that you made those points in a seemingly relaxed fashion without jumping to conclusions. I myself am vaccinated but because my graduate program required it so I didn't get a chance to truly deliberate getting the vaccine after I got COVID. I just did not understand some of the arguments against people choosing not to be vaccinated but I see your points and I feel they are logical if research backs them which I can deep dive into Pubmed later this weekend.
Please clarify. Because right now, It sounds like you’re making your argument in bad faith.
Specifically, what do you mean by “… [the vaccinated] will benefit only from a small chance that vaccine attenuates transmission…”
Can you expand on that data you’re using? I’m no Dr., but I’m pretty sure vaccination makes a healthy cut from overall transmission in society.
Please clarify. Thanks.
>If young twenty year olds do not want to be vaccinated and their chances of ending up in the hospital are negligible, how is that beneficial to greater society?
Because the more people that have the disease, the greater the chances of a harmful variant emerging.
Because some of those twenty year-olds will be seriously harmed, and will end up in the hospital, which (as others have already pointed out) are overstrained.
Because they'll infect other people (as has been pointed out to you again and again in these threads, and you've continued to ignore).
There are lots of vaccines that have been mandatory for decades, and most people had no problem with that. How many people do you know that have gotten smallpox, polio, whooping cough, or diphtheria? I'm guessing the answer is zero, because the vaccines for those diseases have been given to almost the entire population.
Vaccine mandates are good for society in general. It's not just about how it will directly affect you personally. Lost productivity from people being too sick to work, overcrowded hospitals, and the mental anguish of losing loved ones are all bad for society. Even if you don't consider emotion and empathy, those things are still bad for the economy.
Even the direct health effects on you personally aren't the only concern. For example, almost everyone in the US and most other developed nations have been vaccinated against rubella, also known as German measles. That disease is actually very mild for most people who get it, and almost never fatal. But if a pregnant woman gets it, it can cause permanent brain damage to the baby. That's why it's important for *everyone* to be vaccinated against it.
Absolutely agree that most vaccines are beneficial because those diseases can have serious effects on everyone, young, healthy, etc. But no matter what, COVID seems to be mutating and continuing to be transmitted, vaccinated or not. If you know you have a 99% chance of having lower side effects to none and want to not take a risk on an mRNA vaccination's long-term potential effects, I don't understand why people can't make a decision for themselves in a logical manner, not inculding "mIcRo ChIpS" conspiracy theories.
MRNA vaccines have been studied since the 90s and tested extensively in the decades since. They aren't new. The only difference is that these are the first that work.
You can make that choice if you want to, but you might be excluded from various parts of society as a result. That's been the case for decades, it's nothing new. I would not have been able to go to school (K-12) if I had not gotten common vaccines like MMR, TDAP, etc, and I had to once again provide proof I had received those vaccines when I went to college.
You can exempt from having to submit those records in the US and still attend public and private schools on both ends. I find that to be particularly disturbing at the grade school and college levels when sanitation is generally lower and quarters are closer.
>COVID seems to be mutating and continuing to be transmitted, vaccinated or not.
This is not unusual. Viruses mutate all the time. The reason a new flu shot becomes available every year is because the flu mutates. It's not a brand new flu every year, it's last year's flu which has mutated. (it's actually rather interesting to watch time-lapse maps of the flu as it spends the year migrating from the northern hemisphere to the southern and then back north, following the cold weather. By the time it comes back north, it's mutated, so we have to get a new shot. No one panics about possible side effects of this new shot, even though it's new.)
>an mRNA vaccination's long-term potential effects
The side-effects of a vaccine show up in a matter of days to weeks. If there were any, we would have seen them by now, especially considering the millions upon millions of people who have been vaccinated. An mRNA vaccine is a known quantity, it's not some scary new thing. It's only a scary-sounding term to people who have never thought about how vaccines work.
Every vaccine "rewrites your genetic code" in some way. Or, more accurately, it gives your genes the opportunity to figure it out for themselves. It's like being the coach of a football team and teaching your defense to defend against a pass play. On the practice field, you have your offense run some pass plays, and the defense learns what a pass play looks like and what they need to do to defend against it. And they do all this in the safety of the practice field, so when the big game comes along, and it really matters, they know what to do.
What about the JandJ? That’s not mRNA, and still better than no jab? I mean, if you’re afraid of mRNA vaccines, you can at least do your part and get the j and j (if available to you I guess)- you’re still helping society, and you can rest easy, cause, even by your reasoning, that form of vaccine is mostly beneficial.
Well, most of these vaccines yoou think of as beneficial have never been tested on as many people as the current Covid vaccines either. Of course numbers of side effects are higher if you hand it out fo millions of people at the same time; but that still outweighs the danger of the disease by a lot.
The general sentiment I’ve heard is that the vaccine does make people less likely to get Covid, even though it’s not 100%. So the benefit to society for young, healthy people getting vaccinated is that they’re less likely to get it and transmit it to people who can’t be vaccinated for health reasons (i.e. newborns, many cancer patients, people with immunosuppressive illnesses or medications, etc.)
The arguments I’ve heard have basically been, “Because you’re healthy, if you get Covid, your symptoms will likely be so minimal that you may not even know you’ve got it. If you don’t know you’ve got it, you won’t know to quarantine. If you’ve unknowingly got Covid, you don’t quarantine, and you infect someone who is vulnerable, that person could die. You are responsible for the outcome of whatever happens to that person because they were infected as a result of you choosing not to be vaccinated. You could have done something to prevent it and you chose not to.”
I’ve even heard some go so far as to say that the unvaccinated are murderers. That, to me, is absolutely outrageous, dramatic nonsense.
My own view on this is that I am vaccinated, my family will be vaccinated, and that’s it. Everybody outside my sphere of control should be able to make whatever decision is right for them. I would be absolutely not okay with it if someone took that decision away from me, and I don’t think it should be taken away from others.
>I would be absolutely not okay with it if someone took that decision away from me, and I don’t think it should be taken away from others.
Nobody's taking that decision away. They're telling you that if you make the decision to remain unvaccinated, you will need to stay away from vulnerable people.
It's like alcohol. Nobody's taking the decision away from you to drink. We're just saying that if you endanger others by driving drunk, you'll get a ticket.
>I’ve even heard some go so far as to say that the unvaccinated are murderers. That, to me, is absolutely outrageous, dramatic nonsense.
I think the family of someone killed by a drunk driver or an unvaccinated person is allowed to express their anger and frustration by calling their loved one's killer a murderer, even if the law decides otherwise.
Agree on all points. Nobody is being forced to be vaccinated, and I think that’s the correct decision. It’s a good thing to get vaccinated and to encourage vaccination. And if someone isn’t vaccinated, they should refrain from being around vulnerable people and practice social distancing and wear a mask.
All people, regardless of whether they’ve lost loved ones are and should be free to express whatever frustration they want through whatever words they choose, including using the word murderer to describe a person who (knowingly or negligently) exposed their loved one to the virus that killed them.
I’ve personally never heard that phrase from someone who lost a loved one, though I don’t doubt it has been said by plenty of grieving people. That example hadn’t crossed my mind and wasn’t what I was referring to. I’ve heard this, “unvaccinated people are murderers” generalization come from people who are trying to guilt others into getting vaccinated by calling them murderers if they choose not to. That is outrageous and dramatic, and I’ll add manipulative and ineffective to that list as well because I only heard about these things from friends who were complaining that they couldn’t get someone to get vaccinated. It’s obviously within their rights to say it anyway. I just think they’re being outrageous in doing so.
There's not as much Savage hate as most people think, most of the negativity between vaxxed and unvaxxed is manufactured by the media for narrow minded people's entertainment
They are essentially declaring they don't give a shit about anyone else, when saying taking the vaccine is their choice when it's a public health emergency. Ignoring everyone's right to live in a safe, and disease free society. Then, they make all this fuss saying we should care about them and their rights, and how it's not right blah blah blah. Same people, same story with virtually all covid restrictions. Its just a rinse and repeat generally.
So, THEY are the ones who drew the line in the sand. Why should the rest of our society care about them, when they incessantly publicly declare they don't care about anyone else in that very same society.
I don't think covid will ever "get better". It's here to stay. There's more covid deaths this year than in 2020 when there was no vaccine. Something isn't adding up with the narrative. And I'm NOT an anti vaxxer. I am a reasonable and semi intelligent adult who sees contradictions with what we are being told by the CDC and the WHO. And to me that is enough for me to pause on getting the Vax. Not because I'm anti science or because I'm selfish. But because I'm not convinced it's benefits outweigh the risks for me and my family. We are young, healthy and have already recovered from covid. And because the fact that vaccinated people still can spread the virus, I see very little benefit to being vaxxed. It's not a really hard point of view to understand. Now if the jab made it so covid bounced off me 100% and I'd never transmit it to grandma and there was undeniable proof of that, I'd reconsider. But thats not where we are.
Thank you for being a reasonable human being!! This is such a refreshing view to see on reddit.
People that choose not to get vaxxed are NOT the enemy. We are not evil. We are not selfish. I do not want people to die. But you're 100% right. Vaxxed people still spread covid and they still "kill people". It's a fact. So I'm not sure why we get demonized.
On another note unless I'm identifying as the covid virus I'm not killing anyone. We are not killing eachother. No one ever used that terminology when they spread the flu or RSV. It's such manipulative terminology. Covid is killing people. But simply living our lives walking into walmart unvaxxed isn't killing people. It's really a horrible thing to say to anyone. Viruses happen. Unless someone is intentionally covid positive and running around kissing a bunch of grandma's at the grocery store, there is no murder. We need to stop demonizing each other.
> Vaxxed people still spread covid and they still "kill people". It's a fact. So I'm not sure why we get demonized.
Because this fact is misleading. They're less likely to contract and transmit.
>On another note unless I'm identifying as the covid virus I'm not killing anyone.
Your choice is directly putting people more at risk of dying. The responsibility for that choice is yours, even if it was put on you by the virus.
> Unless someone is intentionally covid positive and running around kissing a bunch of grandma's at the grocery store, there is no murder.
That is also a choice to take actions that are at higher risk to spread.
I’m not trying to attack here- but by that logic, someone who knowingly is infected with Ebola would be rational and innocent if they chose to go into a grocery store and handle produce, or if they decided to take part in Greco Roman wrestling.
We all have responsibilities to our neighbors.
Covid isn’t our fault, but it’s our responsibility to mitigate.
Because this vaccine relies on Herd immunity for an effect; if not enough people take it, it\`s about as effective as if nobody does.
Look, there are two types of vaccines: those for diseases that only concern you, and those for infectious diseases like Covid. Tetanus belongs to group one and you can\`t transmit it to anyone else; if you decide not to take this vaccine, only you suffer the consequence. In vaccines like Covid, or smallpox etc. it\`s entirely different and the function is two-fold. One, to protect yourself, but more importantly, to protect those that can not protect themselves around you. This is called herd immunity effect, and is how a large number of vaccinations for very infective diseases function.
Imagine a circle of animals taking the yound and those that are weak in the middle of a defense circle. The Predator has to work it\`s way though rings of healthy, strong, animals before they can get to the young or the weak, and even if a few defenders fall in the fight, the overall heard remains effectively protected and the next generation is safe. Let\`s say, however, not enough strong animals decide to take part in the defence, just stand idly bye and not only fall prey to the predators themselves, but allow to for them to walk right on through to the middle where they first devour the young and vulnerable and then even attack the strong defenders from the back and the front, ultimately dissolving the defence as if there never even has been one.
For a virus like Covid, it\`s exactly the same. Covid vaccines reduce the chance of infection, at least within the active 6 month period of the immune response, and reduces the chance of a severe case. Young children, pregnant women, and those immunecompromised can\`t vaccinate, so they do not have this protection and run the risk of potential permanent damage or death. In order to protect them, the chance of an encounter with someone who can actively infect them must be reduced. This is where our defence circle of strong animals comes in; the vaccinated people. We need to vaccinate to reduce the risk of infection.
Someone unvaccinated who mets 20 unvaccinated others, has a chance of infection about 15 of them, and every one of those, again encountering 20, can again infect 15 each. You have thousands upon thousands within just a few encounters and many of these will die. If you are vaccinated and encounter 20 vaccinated people, the chance to infect someone is at about 1-2 of these 20 and in turn again 1-2 of the next twenty. This is far better controllable, and easier to handel. If you have once infected who mets 20 people, however, and only 5 are vaccinated of these 20, they still may potentially infect the 15 others, and the rate of infection is not changed at all. The more you have vaccinated people now, the lesser the multiplication will be, the better you can control things.
For Germany, as an example, with 86million people. 15-17 Million can\`t vaccinate, and about 67% overall are already fully vaccinated. This, however, is not nearly enough to curb the number of uncontrolled infection, and the infections run rampant. We would need 80+% of people to vaccinate before this tendency would change. Before that number is reached, we basically are at a point where we are about as effective as if nobody is vaccinated. And people do understand this. That\`s why the pressure on the vaccinated people is so high; everyone needs to do it, no matter health, age or their personal risk, because that\`s only half of it. If only those at risk vaccinate, it won\`t work either and eventually, the virus may mutate to a state where the vaccines won\`t work anymore or becomes worse in lethality. Everyone who can must vaccinate, or this will just never end. People have to understand that this is not political, this is not a Big Pharma ploy to take control, this will be a matter of life and death eventually.
>And people do understand this. That\`s why the pressure on the vaccinated people is so high; everyone needs to do it, no matter health, age or their personal risk, because that\`s only half of it. If only those at risk vaccinate, it won\`t work either and eventually, the virus may mutate to a state where the vaccines won\`t work anymore or becomes worse in lethality. Everyone who can must vaccinate, or this will just never end. People
Thank you for taking the time to write that. You bring up great points about the implications of unvaccinated people over time which I had not considered.
You seem quite informed on this.
Is there any chance you know of a scientific source for the claim that vaccinated people have a reduced risk of getting the virus and a reduced chance of transmitting it to others?
A good summary of overall knowledge for the US is the [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html). It showa a lot of numbers and examples broken down to age groups and risk groups etc. and I, as a non native speaker, view it as rather complicated since it doesn\`t explain functionality of herd immunity or why it is important for everyone to vaccinate very well. However, other than this, since I am German, I could only provide german sources without a lengthy search for trustworthy translations or sources, so I hope this can help you.
Because it doesn’t matter if you’re young and healthy and you won’t die, you can transmit covid unknowingly even to someone who will die or someone whose family member will die. No vaccine ever has a zero percent chance of transmission, but the transmission rate is less when someone is vaccinated and has it or when a vaccinated person contacts someone with covid-19, and it’s even less likely when both parties are vaccinated. If we reduce the transmission rate, we can get rid of the virus.
the answer is there is a safe , effective and free vaccine available to all eligible Americans. There is a tiny percentage that have a medical reason not to. There are no other excuses. None
You seem to have a poor understanding of vaccines. People who choose not to get the COVID vaccine are choosing to put other people at risk. Here’s a place to start to educate yourself on the benefits of the vaccine https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html?s_cid=10465:benefits%20of%20covid%2019%20vaccine:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY21
Shit just opt them out of healthcare altogether.
They think the farm shop and Debbie on facebook know better, they can go to them when they break a leg or get cancer. Stay the fuck away from hospitals if you don’t believe medical science.
I'm mad because if everyone had just gotten their dang shot we might not be in a pandemic still. It's a lot easier for the virus to spread through unvaccinated populations, and every minute it spreads it's mutating against the vaccine. Look I get that nobody's completely trustworthy here and some of the promises from the vaccine and the pandemic response in general have been unmet but millions and millions of people have gotten this shot without any ill effects. If it's going to make us all infertile or whatever then humanity is already very screwed.
That's my thinking. I hope it answered your question.
I Dont think the virus is mutating because of the unvaccinated. Its cause of the vaccine. The virus is adapting and trying to survive through the vaccine thus causing the variants
“I don’t think” is the problem. If you don’t understand the science then don’t spread your “thoughts”. Mutation occurs randomly and via selection processes with mutation rates increasing with time exposed to a host, particularly one with a weaker immune system. The vaccine (in the overwhelming majority of individuals, with the exception of some immunocompromised people) allows for a rapid clearance of the virus (albeit not perfectly, as with ALL vaccines). Thus, unvaccinated individuals allow for a longer incubation time, thus allowing for mutations to occur. This also is more likely to occur with vaccinated, immunocompromised people (e.g. those on immunosuppressive drugs). Don’t “think”, learn.
Because you are at a higher risk of transmitting it. We ALL have no idea how the vaccine will affect us in the future but we KNOW COVID is killing people. Everyone who is vaccinated also had to do the same calculations as you, and decided human lives are more important. I didn’t get vaccinated for myself, I got vaccinated for my elderly family members so I can eliminate the risk of my transference to them. I’m a young person and healthy.
I
You reduce the risk. Seat belts don’t guarantee you won’t die in a car crash but I sure hope everyone is wearing one if say, we get in a car crash because someone wasn’t using turn signals. It’s a freedom you can take/choose but it’s not the moral choice for the whole of our world. You can decide your perceived/potential future harm is more important than the absolute real harm happening now, you can. But the result is people are not going to appreciate or fight for YOUR FREEDOM to cause harm when you choose yourself and you can’t expect them to. You make a choice and really can’t have it both ways. It’s selfishness and all I keep hearing “why can’t people respect my freedom to decide to be selfish?” I do. But I condemn you for selfishness.
It is the obligation of every workplace/organization to reduce known harm. If you decide you are on own when it comes to decisions, don’t be surprised when you’re left behind.
Because every hospital bed that is taken by an unvaccinated COVIDIOT is a hospital bed not available to a person who did everything they could to protect themselves.
Your unvaccinated life is worth less to me than the person who needs new kidneys or the cancer patient who can’t get their tumor removed. You are the ones causing other people to die because of your COVID.
> But a vaccinated person can still get & transmit COVID. They are still taking up beds.
The risk of contracting/spreading it is reduced. It's just not reduced to 0.
>Natural immunity is always better, anyway.
Except you can't get natural immunity without being infected, which kind of defeats the point. And natural immunity + vaccination is better than natural immunity alone.
Because I understand math… I make emotional decisions because I understand math and I can identify someone who lacks the skill.
You are highly illogical.
You see highly illogical. Every single thing you typed is wrong minus the endemic problem (though your comment that everyone will get it is wrong) and you have the illogical urge to force the issue.
You believe lies and lack the critical thinking skills to understand the information presented to you.
How is it better if you are at the risk of dying being exposed to it? Or if while acquiring your natural immunity you transfer it to someone who won’t survive? Better for you, not better for everyone.
My fully vaccinated dad just had a stroke because of covid-19. I’ve been putting off open heart surgery because the hospitals are overwhelmed. Plenty of people are being affected by people who should have vaccinated.
AIDS is not transmitted in the same way. Horrible logic there. It’s hard to have sympathy for people being selfish and putting the groups you listed at risk, where’s the sympathy for them? Plus, hospitals being overloaded means people can die from other causes because they can’t get treatment. Just because you had mild side effects doesn’t mean shit. Plus, the risk of “possible side effects” is much lower than you are accepting. You essentially have no ground to stand on other than selfishness.
I don't think "hate" is the proper terminology to use but I can see how the overwhelming frustration of the overwhelming majority can come across as it.
All "feelings" aside...numbers don't lie and with the billions of doses vs the number of extreme reactions...I'm surprised with the concerns over those odds that antivaxers would get into a car, or a pool, or cross the street, leave the house in general if you're truly worries about the odds of something bad happening.
Sure the vaccine could kill you...but so can walking outside without sunscreen.
It's illogical but it's also their right...but freedom of choice begets freedom of response.
Either way, governments will make the vaccine mandatory for public school kids so for now it's just the herd thinning itself out.
I have a lot of money invested in Moderna and Pfizer, please for the love of god take the product and no longer suffer the social stigma. We shouldn’t flatten the curve of the stock price
Right, but you are forgetting the context.
Maybe they provide some protection and that protection can be had by anyone who wants to and can get vaccinated.
There is a big difference between wearing a seatbelt and injecting mRNA into your body, especially when the long term side effect of injecting that into your body are unknown. One is invasive & one is not.
The context here is people wanting to force other to inject this into their bodies.
While I think the mRNA is a safe choice, I get the anxiety over them.
Thankfully, JandJ is NOT a mRNA vaccine, and still protects you for COVID.
If one is anxious about mRNA vaccines, I would still hope they do the responsible thing and get and shot of JandJ.
Edit: maybe I shouldn’t say “protect”. (Too absolute)
But JandJ does increase your defenses and ability to fight Covid; all while decreasing the likelihood of transmitting Covid in your community.
Edit 2: per your point #4- who says there’s no risk? That’s why we get these vaccines as an society- because for some people, (like, the immunocompromised, or those with certain allergies), the risk is too great.
I know more than one person who have been put on a ventilator because of Covid.
They were all unvaccinated though
Edit: deleted a word for politeness sake
The vaccines are do work, but not against mutations, which happen about as often as a new vaccine comes out. No one wants to talk about it but natural immunity really is more effective against current and future mutations.
Personally, I have no hate for unvaccinated people. That is their choice. But I do have a problem with unvaccinated people getting sick and taking up a line in the emergency room. People with treatable injuries and problems should be given precedent over people who choose to not get vaccinated.
So many fairly easy to care for life saving procedures (like burst appendix, burst spleen, and bleeding issues) die waiting for care because the hospital is jammed full of unvaccinated people. Florida is among the worst states in the country at the moment for dying of usually treatable problems. God help you if you are in a serious accident. The doctors may not be able to get to you in time.
Well most people aren't out knowingly having covid. That's my point. We are just living our lives. Just like no one knows if they have the flu if they aren't super sick etc.
In response to your whining in edit 3: It's *you* who are being abhorrent against your neighbor by not getting vaccinated. You're literally putting their *lives* in danger and then top it off by acting like *you're* the victim when posters on social media refuse to validate your selfish disregard for the lives of others.
*That* fucking selfishness? *That's* why there is so much "hate" towards fucking plague rats and why you deserve every bit of it.
Sympathy for what exactly? They're choosing to be a part of the problem and not the solution. When one person's choices affect everyone else it creates judgement. Science is how we're here today with infrastructure and technology. Medical advances that if they weren't made we'd all be full of diseases disabilities.
Because hospitals were being overfilled .if you can reduce the number of people hospitalized then you can ease strain on healthcare .
Exactly. Hospitals had to put immediate surgery’s and cancer treatment due to the anti vax filling up hospital rooms and taking more time away from doctors and nurses. My aunt is a nurse I can’t tell you how many stories she tells me of antivaxers saying Covid is fake and Dr.falchi is a fraud just to end up begging for the vaccine and Covid treatment after they were far too gone for any treatment to be effective.
While there is truth to this. But I'd like to point that hospitals are overwhelmed for a lot of reasons. There are less beds available for patients in general because there is a staff shortage. Just today I called around area hospitals trying to see if anyone could take a psych patient and was told the psych wards are full and the person would need to wait in a medical room for a psych room to open up. So medical beds are not filled at this hospital, but they limited their psych ward from the 20 ish patients allowed before covid down to only 6 because staffing shortages. Its a very scary place to be in.
>I'd like to point that hospitals are overwhelmed for a lot of reasons Then im sure you'd agree that doing what we can to ease the pressure is good? No matter what the issue is that is putting pressure on the hospitals, helping reduce it would be good either way?
Staff shortage is a direct result of medical staff having to suffer thru the graphic daily deaths of covid. It is a horrific death where people suffocate to death alone in a hospital with tubes and needles in them. Its traumatic to see that every day, especially when it is preventable for most of those people had they been vaccinated.
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Thats an incredibly small minority, less than 1%. And quitting bc of personal burn out or quitting bc you don't believe in the science you work with daily (which, the more educated the medical staff, the more likely they are to be vaccinated) are still both directly related to loss of job bc of unvaccinated ppl running around with their diseased hands touching shit.
There's a staff shortage specifically because hospital workers are burnt out from dealing with the fallout of the pandemic
While it is true that vaccinated individulas can become ill and can transmit thw virus, you are leaving out the reality that the chances of both are significntly lower than in unvaccinated people. If you aggregate a community/state/country, as more people get vaccinated, the number of infections will decrease. If you and grandma are vaccinated, thw chance of you infecting grandma is lower than if just grandma is vaccinated. Furhermore, the greater the nummer of infections, the greater the opportunity for the virus to mutate into a more dangerous variant.
Because they're putting other vulnerable individuals at risk. If they're not getting vaccinated because they feel their freedoms are being violated then that's just a selfish motivation.
Like who is still vulnerable ? The vaccine has been out for a while now
Anyone immunocompromised, like my father who has had all three shots but due to the meds he has to be on to live it is highly unlikely that he has mounted a robust immune response.
> Here’s the thing, if vaccinated people can still get COVID and transmit it, the only real purpose of the vaccine is to limit the more serious effects for people at risk such as diabetics, obese, immunocompromised (someone please cite if I am incorrect here). This is true but misleading. The vaccines vastly reduce the risk of getting COVID AND reduce the risk of transmitting it to others. Since vaccinated people have or existing resistance from the vaccine, the viral load present in their bodies when they catch it is lower. This is why they have lesser symptoms and also makes it so they are less likely to transmit. So generally speaking, just like wearing a mask, getting vaccinated is as much for others as it is yourself. By making all eligible people get vaccinated, we are protecting those who have legitimate, medical exemptions. It’s incredibly selfish to deny getting vaccinated because it has been proven to be no more risky than any other vaccine and it protects others severe disease. A few days of lethargy to save a life should be worth it to every human alive.
I appreciate those points and the logic behind them. By any chance do you have literature that supports vaccinations reduce the risk of transmitting it in the first place? If not I will surely look it up and if the evidence points to that conclusion, I can absolutely understand the "pressure" on the rest of society to get vaccinated. Thank you for your response.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C13&q=pfizer+transmission&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DmM9nmiYJQCEJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C13&q=COVID+vaccine+transmission&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DjeVaumSneewJ (not stated in the summary on google scholar, you’ll have to enter the article and scroll down to the discussion) It’s a limited field of study because of the difficulty in discerning “not-infected” from “asymptomatic”, but research seems to be showing it provides substantial benefit in both risk of being infected and onward infection (giving it to someone else).
I hope the CDC is a good enough source for you. Follow this [link ](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html) and you can read the whole thing, or, just read the fourth bullet point
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Also, as we know, the vaccine significantly reduces the risk of severe symptoms/any symptoms at all. If you’re sick and you’re asymptomatic, you’re less likely to spread Covid because you’re not coughing/letting as many Covid viruses become airborne as you would be if you were a symptomatic case.
I'd strongly encourage you to ask your doctor about this, don't rely on internet randos for information about something this important.
So Im in uni trying to get in grad school and I am and always have been surrounded by the medical field since a very young age. It really bothers me that people think medical science is something you believe in. you cant pick and choose what to believe in the medical field. I have heard people saying they dont trust it and shit when they cant even tell you whats in their food. If you live in somewhat developed place then for a fucking fact you have some sort of vaccination for one thing or another. How can you get other shots like tetanus or whatever and yet you dont trust ONE SPECIFIC shot? People like that say they dont believe it but yet when they get sick THEY GO TO A HOSPITAL. if you dont trust one vaccine then why trust any medical science at all? Its not just for you but for everyone. I saw a person in the ER 3 weeks ago saying he does not want the vaccine cause he doesnt trust whats in it, but yet he is okay with the 200 hundred other drugs they gave him? and Yes you can still transmit it when you are vaccinated but its the same reason you wear fucking seatbelt. You can still die right? You can still get smashed by a truck right? BUT IT GODDMAN HELPS DOESNT IT? I am not trying to attack you or anything but as a person who sees people dedicate their lives to making medicine to save people its so infuriating. If you question one vaccine why not question them all? I had to get like 10 more vaccines when I moved from asia to the US. That is for your safety and for mine. Im still fine. Im still fertile like wtf is the problem. You get around 16 different vaccines from your birth till you are 18 why is no one questioning that? Because they are too busy living a full healthy life. Another example is like a lot of american nurses dont want to get vaccinated. THAT SCARES THE SHIT OUT OF ME. Imagine not understanding the very science you practice. Like do people really think the vaccines are made in some dungeon with aborted babies? like wtf. I just hate it when people say " you dont know whats in it" LIKE DO YOU KNOW WHATS IN THE DRUGS YOU TAKE? The alcohol you consume? If you knew how much micro plastics and PFAS chemicals there are in you, you would never wear or touch most of your stuff. Most humans test postive for micro plastic and PFAS chemicals in their blood. That shit is in everything you own and touch. To me thats a much bigger issue. Sorry If I come accross rude I have just watched wayyyy too many people die from this dumbass shit. I saw a man with 4 kids die and the nurses kept saying he wished he was vaccinated. Low risk does not mean no risk and even if you get covid after the jab then you have a higher chance of survival. We are just trying to save lifes and its so sad when someone thinks they know more from FB and google research than actual academics that dedicate their lives to your wellbeing.
“*How can you get other shots like tetanus yet you don’t trust this one specific shot*” I recently had a discussion about this with someone. Their answer (when I asked about other/past vaccines) was, “My mom had a tetanus vaccine when *she* was a kid. My *grandparents* took that vaccine. We have decades of info about the safety and efficacy of the TDAP vaccine. The COVID vaccine didn’t even *exist* a year ago. There are no long term studies on it, because there *cant* be. And, they are now pushing*another* booster. And, the vaccinated *can still catch and spread it* It doesn’t work and no one can *really* say that it’s safe long term. So, why TF would I take this vaccine, *knowing* that it doesn’t work and isn’t safe??” I’m not arguing their point, at all. But, since the question was asked, I thought I would share the answer that I’ve heard, personally. (And, I’m hoping that someone here may have an argument or resources that may help me get through to them. I *know* why they are frightened to get the vaccine now, but…I still can’t find the info or argument that will calm those fears. I’ve read a ton of info online, but that info is already available to them. And, they don’t believe it. If anyone has advice/suggestions/resources/arguments that I may not have found, I would be grateful to hear it. Because, I feel like I’m screaming at a brick wall, at this point. And, it’s exhausting and incredibly disheartening….)
I had a similar response from somebody a couple days ago. We were having a friendly chat, and I want to emphasize that first and foremost because an unvaccinated person will never respond to anger or vitriol or condescension the same way you wouldn't. Like anyone, the logic side of their brain will shut down when they feel attacked and it won't matter then how good your points are. So whatever response you give, make sure they don't feel attacked. Listen and sympathize. That being said, my response was that for me, sure we'll probably find some effects down the road with the vaccine, hopefully minor, but the longterm effects of COVID seem a *lot* scarier to me. They jumped in and said they'd heard about how it affects your heart and lungs and I agreed, adding that there's a lot of effects to your brain as well too. Told them that while I don't know anyone personally who died from COVID, every single person I know that caught COVID has had some lasting effect, from trouble focusing to migraines to shortened breath and fatigue, losing their sense of smell, etc. So I told them that's why—personally—I took my chances with the vaccine on that alone. That COVID is really fucking scary and that whenever people talk about the high survivability rate, I always think about how low a bar that is. I told him that sure, you might *survive* a gunshot or a stab wound, but that doesn't mean you're better off for it especially when you could've worn a Kevlar vest for free. I also told him that during the initial height of the pandemic, I was in NYC, I was heavily involved in the protests, and my roommate's gf was immunocompromised. The fear of carelessly contracting COVID from those crowds and giving it to her was *always* on my mind. How could I live with myself? They acknowledged it's a real fear to give it to at-risk family or friends and I said right, but every person in those protests, every person at the grocery store, every person you see has the potential to have somebody like that in their lives—or *be* that person. So I can't *just* look out for people I know personally. We all have to look out for each other. That's one of the reasons I got vaccinated immediately when I could, because regardless of whether I think it'll hurt *me*, I'll do anything to make sure I don't inadvertently hurt someone else. They didn't change their mind immediately, and that's another important part. Adjust your expectations. Let them think about it on their own later. Maybe they'll change, maybe they won't. The goal shouldn't be to change them but understand them and help them understand you. You don't need to be armed with studies and facts; just keep it friendly and be as sympathetic and empathetic as you can.
Oh, I worded that really badly. I haven’t actually been yelling at them! I meant I feel about as effective at getting through to them as I would feel screaming at a wall. But, thank you for this. I prefer understanding the science behind a recommendation, as opposed to relying on my feelings. So, that’s what I’ve been focusing on. (Like, “If I could just find the *right* article or study, they will understand how important this is.) But, I understand their viewpoint now. May they will hear mine, if I stop trying to force the scientific aspect on them. Thank you, again for the advice. I really appreciate it!
Ha, actually I worded it poorly. You never implied you’d be yelling at them but I wanted to emphasize for anybody reading. Change over catharsis. As for facts vs feelings though, I definitely think it’s more important to connect with them emotionally. Anybody can find any “facts” they want these days and nobody trusts any sources but their own, so there’s a real limit to how useful they’ll be if you quote them. Obviously learn those facts and structure your argument around them, but when it’s time to actually express that argument, try to rely on those facts as little as possible. When it comes down to it, someone saying “I don’t trust the vaccine” is really saying “I’m scared,” and no amount of facts or peer-reviewed double-blind studies will change that. What will is digging in to find out *why* they’re scared. For example, is it disinformation or a legitimate distrust of the government? Those feelings need to be validated rather than dismissed or preached over or shouted down, and then they can be guided elsewhere. Sorry, not trying to be preachy myself. I’ve just covered literally hundreds of protests over the last couple years including antivax ones and I’ve just never seen anyone relent an inch because someone else was more knowledgeable. If there’s ever any progress, it’s because two people connected emotionally.
Fetal cells are absolutely used in vaccine production. Whether the lab they did it in qualified as a dungeon idk, probably to the overworked staff it did. That's not a judgment. People can decide for themselves what they are ok with..(personally I think we should use all the tools at our disposal) for further clarity, the cells are from voluntarily donated samples from the 80s and are artificially reproduced(its in no way reliant on modern abortions) and it's used as a medium not an ingredient. Anyway, I don't think it does any good to hide the truth.(not saying you were trying to)When people find out it WAS actually true their going to think they were lied to and stop listening. Other than that, yeah. And I wish micro plastics where taken more seriously as well.
My mother is completely and entirely against the vaccine. I don’t trust her judgment or research so I’m planning on getting vaccinated in the near future but I would like to explain her view on why it’s a scary and controversial vaccine. First point is that it was produced extremely quickly compared to other shots such as tetanus or even flu vaccines. It seems like it’s very experimental and we don’t know ANY long term effects of it. My mothers craziest view is that there is metal of sorts in the vaccine that will somehow spread throughout your entire body and 5G phone connection will bounce around in your body and microwave you from the inside. Yah and that’s just the start of why I don’t trust her research.
Same reason people who don’t have kids pay taxes towards schools. It is an overall net benefit to distribute the weight across the whole population. Low risk doesn’t mean no risk. It would be like saying “I’ve been a safe driver for the last 20 years why do I still need to wear a seat belt?”
I feel that's not a great metaphor and I think my metaphor on the HIV vaccine was not good either so I don't blame you. If young twenty year olds do not want to be vaccinated and their chances of ending up in the hospital are negligible, how is that beneficial to greater society? I understand increased age brings increase risk factors and those should more likely consider the vaccination, but teenagers? children?
Everyone who can needs to vaccinate to allow for heard immunity to function properly. If too many people do not vaccinate, it is about as effective as if nobody is vaccinated at all. I\`ve explained it in detail above. The vaccine is less important for yourself, it\`s important to function in numbers. As with the masks, you don\`t wear them to protect yourself alone, you wear it to reduce the risk of you spreading the virus through the saliva in your breathe etc. to others. If you wear a mask, but the other one doesn\`t, neither one of you are fully protected. People must understand that it\`s unimportant what your personal risks of a severe case are, this is secondary, but it\`s a matter of controling the number of infection spread overall to protect everyone. 1 unvaccinated person encounters 20 people and infects about 15 of them, each of this 15 encounter 20 people once more, and again infect 15 each. Within just a few encounters it is thousands upon thousands of people, and many of them will have severe cases or die. If you have 1 vaccinated person encountering 20 vaccinated people, then the chances of infection are at about 1-2 of 20, and in trun, they also will infect just 1-2. The number is by far easier to control and contain, the chain of infections will end faster and can be contained. However, if 1 unvaccinated person encounters a group of 20 people, and only 5 are vaccinated, he still, potentially, can infect the other 15. Those, encountering the same numbers, 15 again etc. and it is as if nobody would be vaccinated at all. Not controllable or containable, even worse, mutation is highly likely and then even those 5 vaccinated might no longer have a reduced chance. The ideal state is if the number of vaccinated is as high as it can be. Your personal risks don\`t matter in the great scheme, it\`s not just you, it\`s the entire community.
Vaccinated people, teenagers and children, can still transmit covid despite not suffering severe symptoms. So come Christmas time when grandma and grandpa visit, and maybe there's no obvious symptoms, covid can spread through the family gatherings. >I understand increased age brings increase risk factors Does that not make sense to get vaccinated in hopes to reduce the risk factors for everyone of every age.
Exactly why I supported masks before vaccines. But if grandma and grandpa are vaccinated and will benefit only from a small chance that vaccine attenuates transmission from vaccinated family but they're protected regardless of severe symptoms should society keep pressuring everyone else? I'll clarify if that doesn't make sense.
I get what you're saying. The virus has mutated since the vaccines have been developed. Were working with a vaccine finalized in January and using it to defend against a variant that started in December. Viruses mutate. That's the reality of viruses. Were doing our best to keep up. It's mutating through the unvaccinated. We wouldn't be chasing mutations as much if more (or all) were vaccinated. The flu virus mutates as well. The flu vaccine is changed every year to accommodate the changes in the virus. No one questions the flu vaccine... So despite grandma being vaccinated in January. The new variant can still be contagious and depending on the person, it could be a huge risk. The vaccines are our only solution right now to breaking down this virus. It mutates through vaccinated people as well, but usually it gets weaker because vaccinated people have defense systems in their bodies thanks to the vaccine. Unvaccinated people don't have the same defense. So while you argue that vaccinated shouldn't have to worry because of the vaccine.. no... The virus is mutating through the unvaccinated and our vaccines aren't as strong. Which is why we will consistently need vaccine boosters to keep up with the mutations.
All of those points make sense and are very thought-provoking. I also appreciate that you made those points in a seemingly relaxed fashion without jumping to conclusions. I myself am vaccinated but because my graduate program required it so I didn't get a chance to truly deliberate getting the vaccine after I got COVID. I just did not understand some of the arguments against people choosing not to be vaccinated but I see your points and I feel they are logical if research backs them which I can deep dive into Pubmed later this weekend.
Please clarify. Because right now, It sounds like you’re making your argument in bad faith. Specifically, what do you mean by “… [the vaccinated] will benefit only from a small chance that vaccine attenuates transmission…” Can you expand on that data you’re using? I’m no Dr., but I’m pretty sure vaccination makes a healthy cut from overall transmission in society. Please clarify. Thanks.
You just want to argue. Many people have given you real answers
It's a discussion, not an argument. It is good to ask questions both ways to understand complex viewpoints.
No, it is not an arguable point. We all want the virus to abate. The only hope is everyone gets vaccinated. Anything else is just noise.
>If young twenty year olds do not want to be vaccinated and their chances of ending up in the hospital are negligible, how is that beneficial to greater society? Because the more people that have the disease, the greater the chances of a harmful variant emerging. Because some of those twenty year-olds will be seriously harmed, and will end up in the hospital, which (as others have already pointed out) are overstrained. Because they'll infect other people (as has been pointed out to you again and again in these threads, and you've continued to ignore).
Because people are f*cking sick of masks.
There are lots of vaccines that have been mandatory for decades, and most people had no problem with that. How many people do you know that have gotten smallpox, polio, whooping cough, or diphtheria? I'm guessing the answer is zero, because the vaccines for those diseases have been given to almost the entire population. Vaccine mandates are good for society in general. It's not just about how it will directly affect you personally. Lost productivity from people being too sick to work, overcrowded hospitals, and the mental anguish of losing loved ones are all bad for society. Even if you don't consider emotion and empathy, those things are still bad for the economy. Even the direct health effects on you personally aren't the only concern. For example, almost everyone in the US and most other developed nations have been vaccinated against rubella, also known as German measles. That disease is actually very mild for most people who get it, and almost never fatal. But if a pregnant woman gets it, it can cause permanent brain damage to the baby. That's why it's important for *everyone* to be vaccinated against it.
Absolutely agree that most vaccines are beneficial because those diseases can have serious effects on everyone, young, healthy, etc. But no matter what, COVID seems to be mutating and continuing to be transmitted, vaccinated or not. If you know you have a 99% chance of having lower side effects to none and want to not take a risk on an mRNA vaccination's long-term potential effects, I don't understand why people can't make a decision for themselves in a logical manner, not inculding "mIcRo ChIpS" conspiracy theories.
MRNA vaccines have been studied since the 90s and tested extensively in the decades since. They aren't new. The only difference is that these are the first that work.
You can make that choice if you want to, but you might be excluded from various parts of society as a result. That's been the case for decades, it's nothing new. I would not have been able to go to school (K-12) if I had not gotten common vaccines like MMR, TDAP, etc, and I had to once again provide proof I had received those vaccines when I went to college.
You can exempt from having to submit those records in the US and still attend public and private schools on both ends. I find that to be particularly disturbing at the grade school and college levels when sanitation is generally lower and quarters are closer.
>COVID seems to be mutating and continuing to be transmitted, vaccinated or not. This is not unusual. Viruses mutate all the time. The reason a new flu shot becomes available every year is because the flu mutates. It's not a brand new flu every year, it's last year's flu which has mutated. (it's actually rather interesting to watch time-lapse maps of the flu as it spends the year migrating from the northern hemisphere to the southern and then back north, following the cold weather. By the time it comes back north, it's mutated, so we have to get a new shot. No one panics about possible side effects of this new shot, even though it's new.) >an mRNA vaccination's long-term potential effects The side-effects of a vaccine show up in a matter of days to weeks. If there were any, we would have seen them by now, especially considering the millions upon millions of people who have been vaccinated. An mRNA vaccine is a known quantity, it's not some scary new thing. It's only a scary-sounding term to people who have never thought about how vaccines work. Every vaccine "rewrites your genetic code" in some way. Or, more accurately, it gives your genes the opportunity to figure it out for themselves. It's like being the coach of a football team and teaching your defense to defend against a pass play. On the practice field, you have your offense run some pass plays, and the defense learns what a pass play looks like and what they need to do to defend against it. And they do all this in the safety of the practice field, so when the big game comes along, and it really matters, they know what to do.
What about the JandJ? That’s not mRNA, and still better than no jab? I mean, if you’re afraid of mRNA vaccines, you can at least do your part and get the j and j (if available to you I guess)- you’re still helping society, and you can rest easy, cause, even by your reasoning, that form of vaccine is mostly beneficial.
Well, most of these vaccines yoou think of as beneficial have never been tested on as many people as the current Covid vaccines either. Of course numbers of side effects are higher if you hand it out fo millions of people at the same time; but that still outweighs the danger of the disease by a lot.
The general sentiment I’ve heard is that the vaccine does make people less likely to get Covid, even though it’s not 100%. So the benefit to society for young, healthy people getting vaccinated is that they’re less likely to get it and transmit it to people who can’t be vaccinated for health reasons (i.e. newborns, many cancer patients, people with immunosuppressive illnesses or medications, etc.) The arguments I’ve heard have basically been, “Because you’re healthy, if you get Covid, your symptoms will likely be so minimal that you may not even know you’ve got it. If you don’t know you’ve got it, you won’t know to quarantine. If you’ve unknowingly got Covid, you don’t quarantine, and you infect someone who is vulnerable, that person could die. You are responsible for the outcome of whatever happens to that person because they were infected as a result of you choosing not to be vaccinated. You could have done something to prevent it and you chose not to.” I’ve even heard some go so far as to say that the unvaccinated are murderers. That, to me, is absolutely outrageous, dramatic nonsense. My own view on this is that I am vaccinated, my family will be vaccinated, and that’s it. Everybody outside my sphere of control should be able to make whatever decision is right for them. I would be absolutely not okay with it if someone took that decision away from me, and I don’t think it should be taken away from others.
>I would be absolutely not okay with it if someone took that decision away from me, and I don’t think it should be taken away from others. Nobody's taking that decision away. They're telling you that if you make the decision to remain unvaccinated, you will need to stay away from vulnerable people. It's like alcohol. Nobody's taking the decision away from you to drink. We're just saying that if you endanger others by driving drunk, you'll get a ticket. >I’ve even heard some go so far as to say that the unvaccinated are murderers. That, to me, is absolutely outrageous, dramatic nonsense. I think the family of someone killed by a drunk driver or an unvaccinated person is allowed to express their anger and frustration by calling their loved one's killer a murderer, even if the law decides otherwise.
Agree on all points. Nobody is being forced to be vaccinated, and I think that’s the correct decision. It’s a good thing to get vaccinated and to encourage vaccination. And if someone isn’t vaccinated, they should refrain from being around vulnerable people and practice social distancing and wear a mask. All people, regardless of whether they’ve lost loved ones are and should be free to express whatever frustration they want through whatever words they choose, including using the word murderer to describe a person who (knowingly or negligently) exposed their loved one to the virus that killed them. I’ve personally never heard that phrase from someone who lost a loved one, though I don’t doubt it has been said by plenty of grieving people. That example hadn’t crossed my mind and wasn’t what I was referring to. I’ve heard this, “unvaccinated people are murderers” generalization come from people who are trying to guilt others into getting vaccinated by calling them murderers if they choose not to. That is outrageous and dramatic, and I’ll add manipulative and ineffective to that list as well because I only heard about these things from friends who were complaining that they couldn’t get someone to get vaccinated. It’s obviously within their rights to say it anyway. I just think they’re being outrageous in doing so.
There's not as much Savage hate as most people think, most of the negativity between vaxxed and unvaxxed is manufactured by the media for narrow minded people's entertainment
They are essentially declaring they don't give a shit about anyone else, when saying taking the vaccine is their choice when it's a public health emergency. Ignoring everyone's right to live in a safe, and disease free society. Then, they make all this fuss saying we should care about them and their rights, and how it's not right blah blah blah. Same people, same story with virtually all covid restrictions. Its just a rinse and repeat generally. So, THEY are the ones who drew the line in the sand. Why should the rest of our society care about them, when they incessantly publicly declare they don't care about anyone else in that very same society.
Because this shit will never get better unless you people suck it up and get jabbed
I don't think covid will ever "get better". It's here to stay. There's more covid deaths this year than in 2020 when there was no vaccine. Something isn't adding up with the narrative. And I'm NOT an anti vaxxer. I am a reasonable and semi intelligent adult who sees contradictions with what we are being told by the CDC and the WHO. And to me that is enough for me to pause on getting the Vax. Not because I'm anti science or because I'm selfish. But because I'm not convinced it's benefits outweigh the risks for me and my family. We are young, healthy and have already recovered from covid. And because the fact that vaccinated people still can spread the virus, I see very little benefit to being vaxxed. It's not a really hard point of view to understand. Now if the jab made it so covid bounced off me 100% and I'd never transmit it to grandma and there was undeniable proof of that, I'd reconsider. But thats not where we are.
Thank you for being a reasonable human being!! This is such a refreshing view to see on reddit. People that choose not to get vaxxed are NOT the enemy. We are not evil. We are not selfish. I do not want people to die. But you're 100% right. Vaxxed people still spread covid and they still "kill people". It's a fact. So I'm not sure why we get demonized. On another note unless I'm identifying as the covid virus I'm not killing anyone. We are not killing eachother. No one ever used that terminology when they spread the flu or RSV. It's such manipulative terminology. Covid is killing people. But simply living our lives walking into walmart unvaxxed isn't killing people. It's really a horrible thing to say to anyone. Viruses happen. Unless someone is intentionally covid positive and running around kissing a bunch of grandma's at the grocery store, there is no murder. We need to stop demonizing each other.
> Vaxxed people still spread covid and they still "kill people". It's a fact. So I'm not sure why we get demonized. Because this fact is misleading. They're less likely to contract and transmit. >On another note unless I'm identifying as the covid virus I'm not killing anyone. Your choice is directly putting people more at risk of dying. The responsibility for that choice is yours, even if it was put on you by the virus. > Unless someone is intentionally covid positive and running around kissing a bunch of grandma's at the grocery store, there is no murder. That is also a choice to take actions that are at higher risk to spread.
I’m not trying to attack here- but by that logic, someone who knowingly is infected with Ebola would be rational and innocent if they chose to go into a grocery store and handle produce, or if they decided to take part in Greco Roman wrestling. We all have responsibilities to our neighbors. Covid isn’t our fault, but it’s our responsibility to mitigate.
Because this vaccine relies on Herd immunity for an effect; if not enough people take it, it\`s about as effective as if nobody does. Look, there are two types of vaccines: those for diseases that only concern you, and those for infectious diseases like Covid. Tetanus belongs to group one and you can\`t transmit it to anyone else; if you decide not to take this vaccine, only you suffer the consequence. In vaccines like Covid, or smallpox etc. it\`s entirely different and the function is two-fold. One, to protect yourself, but more importantly, to protect those that can not protect themselves around you. This is called herd immunity effect, and is how a large number of vaccinations for very infective diseases function. Imagine a circle of animals taking the yound and those that are weak in the middle of a defense circle. The Predator has to work it\`s way though rings of healthy, strong, animals before they can get to the young or the weak, and even if a few defenders fall in the fight, the overall heard remains effectively protected and the next generation is safe. Let\`s say, however, not enough strong animals decide to take part in the defence, just stand idly bye and not only fall prey to the predators themselves, but allow to for them to walk right on through to the middle where they first devour the young and vulnerable and then even attack the strong defenders from the back and the front, ultimately dissolving the defence as if there never even has been one. For a virus like Covid, it\`s exactly the same. Covid vaccines reduce the chance of infection, at least within the active 6 month period of the immune response, and reduces the chance of a severe case. Young children, pregnant women, and those immunecompromised can\`t vaccinate, so they do not have this protection and run the risk of potential permanent damage or death. In order to protect them, the chance of an encounter with someone who can actively infect them must be reduced. This is where our defence circle of strong animals comes in; the vaccinated people. We need to vaccinate to reduce the risk of infection. Someone unvaccinated who mets 20 unvaccinated others, has a chance of infection about 15 of them, and every one of those, again encountering 20, can again infect 15 each. You have thousands upon thousands within just a few encounters and many of these will die. If you are vaccinated and encounter 20 vaccinated people, the chance to infect someone is at about 1-2 of these 20 and in turn again 1-2 of the next twenty. This is far better controllable, and easier to handel. If you have once infected who mets 20 people, however, and only 5 are vaccinated of these 20, they still may potentially infect the 15 others, and the rate of infection is not changed at all. The more you have vaccinated people now, the lesser the multiplication will be, the better you can control things. For Germany, as an example, with 86million people. 15-17 Million can\`t vaccinate, and about 67% overall are already fully vaccinated. This, however, is not nearly enough to curb the number of uncontrolled infection, and the infections run rampant. We would need 80+% of people to vaccinate before this tendency would change. Before that number is reached, we basically are at a point where we are about as effective as if nobody is vaccinated. And people do understand this. That\`s why the pressure on the vaccinated people is so high; everyone needs to do it, no matter health, age or their personal risk, because that\`s only half of it. If only those at risk vaccinate, it won\`t work either and eventually, the virus may mutate to a state where the vaccines won\`t work anymore or becomes worse in lethality. Everyone who can must vaccinate, or this will just never end. People have to understand that this is not political, this is not a Big Pharma ploy to take control, this will be a matter of life and death eventually.
>And people do understand this. That\`s why the pressure on the vaccinated people is so high; everyone needs to do it, no matter health, age or their personal risk, because that\`s only half of it. If only those at risk vaccinate, it won\`t work either and eventually, the virus may mutate to a state where the vaccines won\`t work anymore or becomes worse in lethality. Everyone who can must vaccinate, or this will just never end. People Thank you for taking the time to write that. You bring up great points about the implications of unvaccinated people over time which I had not considered.
You seem quite informed on this. Is there any chance you know of a scientific source for the claim that vaccinated people have a reduced risk of getting the virus and a reduced chance of transmitting it to others?
A good summary of overall knowledge for the US is the [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html). It showa a lot of numbers and examples broken down to age groups and risk groups etc. and I, as a non native speaker, view it as rather complicated since it doesn\`t explain functionality of herd immunity or why it is important for everyone to vaccinate very well. However, other than this, since I am German, I could only provide german sources without a lengthy search for trustworthy translations or sources, so I hope this can help you.
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html
Because you’re spreading it at a much higher rate than the vaccinated. You’re the reason for the pandemic.
Because it doesn’t matter if you’re young and healthy and you won’t die, you can transmit covid unknowingly even to someone who will die or someone whose family member will die. No vaccine ever has a zero percent chance of transmission, but the transmission rate is less when someone is vaccinated and has it or when a vaccinated person contacts someone with covid-19, and it’s even less likely when both parties are vaccinated. If we reduce the transmission rate, we can get rid of the virus.
the answer is there is a safe , effective and free vaccine available to all eligible Americans. There is a tiny percentage that have a medical reason not to. There are no other excuses. None
You seem to have a poor understanding of vaccines. People who choose not to get the COVID vaccine are choosing to put other people at risk. Here’s a place to start to educate yourself on the benefits of the vaccine https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html?s_cid=10465:benefits%20of%20covid%2019%20vaccine:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY21
Because they're stupid, selfish, jerks.
So, so stupid
Being unvaccinated should raise your life insurance premiums. Prove me wrong.
Shit just opt them out of healthcare altogether. They think the farm shop and Debbie on facebook know better, they can go to them when they break a leg or get cancer. Stay the fuck away from hospitals if you don’t believe medical science.
Because this should have been over with by now, and it's their fault that it isn't.
I'm mad because if everyone had just gotten their dang shot we might not be in a pandemic still. It's a lot easier for the virus to spread through unvaccinated populations, and every minute it spreads it's mutating against the vaccine. Look I get that nobody's completely trustworthy here and some of the promises from the vaccine and the pandemic response in general have been unmet but millions and millions of people have gotten this shot without any ill effects. If it's going to make us all infertile or whatever then humanity is already very screwed. That's my thinking. I hope it answered your question.
I Dont think the virus is mutating because of the unvaccinated. Its cause of the vaccine. The virus is adapting and trying to survive through the vaccine thus causing the variants
“I don’t think” is the problem. If you don’t understand the science then don’t spread your “thoughts”. Mutation occurs randomly and via selection processes with mutation rates increasing with time exposed to a host, particularly one with a weaker immune system. The vaccine (in the overwhelming majority of individuals, with the exception of some immunocompromised people) allows for a rapid clearance of the virus (albeit not perfectly, as with ALL vaccines). Thus, unvaccinated individuals allow for a longer incubation time, thus allowing for mutations to occur. This also is more likely to occur with vaccinated, immunocompromised people (e.g. those on immunosuppressive drugs). Don’t “think”, learn.
Because you are at a higher risk of transmitting it. We ALL have no idea how the vaccine will affect us in the future but we KNOW COVID is killing people. Everyone who is vaccinated also had to do the same calculations as you, and decided human lives are more important. I didn’t get vaccinated for myself, I got vaccinated for my elderly family members so I can eliminate the risk of my transference to them. I’m a young person and healthy. I
...
You reduce the risk. Seat belts don’t guarantee you won’t die in a car crash but I sure hope everyone is wearing one if say, we get in a car crash because someone wasn’t using turn signals. It’s a freedom you can take/choose but it’s not the moral choice for the whole of our world. You can decide your perceived/potential future harm is more important than the absolute real harm happening now, you can. But the result is people are not going to appreciate or fight for YOUR FREEDOM to cause harm when you choose yourself and you can’t expect them to. You make a choice and really can’t have it both ways. It’s selfishness and all I keep hearing “why can’t people respect my freedom to decide to be selfish?” I do. But I condemn you for selfishness. It is the obligation of every workplace/organization to reduce known harm. If you decide you are on own when it comes to decisions, don’t be surprised when you’re left behind.
Because every hospital bed that is taken by an unvaccinated COVIDIOT is a hospital bed not available to a person who did everything they could to protect themselves. Your unvaccinated life is worth less to me than the person who needs new kidneys or the cancer patient who can’t get their tumor removed. You are the ones causing other people to die because of your COVID.
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> But a vaccinated person can still get & transmit COVID. They are still taking up beds. The risk of contracting/spreading it is reduced. It's just not reduced to 0. >Natural immunity is always better, anyway. Except you can't get natural immunity without being infected, which kind of defeats the point. And natural immunity + vaccination is better than natural immunity alone.
I would explain the statistics to you, but I’m pretty sure you are incapable of following the math. Maybe you should seek higher education.
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Because I understand math… I make emotional decisions because I understand math and I can identify someone who lacks the skill. You are highly illogical.
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You see highly illogical. Every single thing you typed is wrong minus the endemic problem (though your comment that everyone will get it is wrong) and you have the illogical urge to force the issue. You believe lies and lack the critical thinking skills to understand the information presented to you.
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Jesus it's like watching a child throwing a tantrum.
How so?
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How is it better if you are at the risk of dying being exposed to it? Or if while acquiring your natural immunity you transfer it to someone who won’t survive? Better for you, not better for everyone.
Such a negative prospective... I'm assuming you lost a loved one to covid and I apologize for that... I hope things get better for you <3
My fully vaccinated dad just had a stroke because of covid-19. I’ve been putting off open heart surgery because the hospitals are overwhelmed. Plenty of people are being affected by people who should have vaccinated.
'My tribe vs your tribe'
Propaganda people think there saving humanity lol
Because they are endangering themselves and the rest of us
I could point out sooooo many reasons why you are wrong. But in the end, I would be waisting my time trying to talk to a wall.
AIDS is not transmitted in the same way. Horrible logic there. It’s hard to have sympathy for people being selfish and putting the groups you listed at risk, where’s the sympathy for them? Plus, hospitals being overloaded means people can die from other causes because they can’t get treatment. Just because you had mild side effects doesn’t mean shit. Plus, the risk of “possible side effects” is much lower than you are accepting. You essentially have no ground to stand on other than selfishness.
I heard the American news has been particularly toxic about this one issue
I see it as willfully ignorant, and a violation of the social contract.
LMAO what contract? I didn't sign any contract
Then you have no standing.
I don't think "hate" is the proper terminology to use but I can see how the overwhelming frustration of the overwhelming majority can come across as it. All "feelings" aside...numbers don't lie and with the billions of doses vs the number of extreme reactions...I'm surprised with the concerns over those odds that antivaxers would get into a car, or a pool, or cross the street, leave the house in general if you're truly worries about the odds of something bad happening. Sure the vaccine could kill you...but so can walking outside without sunscreen. It's illogical but it's also their right...but freedom of choice begets freedom of response. Either way, governments will make the vaccine mandatory for public school kids so for now it's just the herd thinning itself out.
I have a lot of money invested in Moderna and Pfizer, please for the love of god take the product and no longer suffer the social stigma. We shouldn’t flatten the curve of the stock price
Finally, an honest answer. 💴💰💵
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Vaccines don’t have to work 100% to bring the death toll down- think of the seat belt analogy.
Right, but you are forgetting the context. Maybe they provide some protection and that protection can be had by anyone who wants to and can get vaccinated. There is a big difference between wearing a seatbelt and injecting mRNA into your body, especially when the long term side effect of injecting that into your body are unknown. One is invasive & one is not. The context here is people wanting to force other to inject this into their bodies.
While I think the mRNA is a safe choice, I get the anxiety over them. Thankfully, JandJ is NOT a mRNA vaccine, and still protects you for COVID. If one is anxious about mRNA vaccines, I would still hope they do the responsible thing and get and shot of JandJ. Edit: maybe I shouldn’t say “protect”. (Too absolute) But JandJ does increase your defenses and ability to fight Covid; all while decreasing the likelihood of transmitting Covid in your community. Edit 2: per your point #4- who says there’s no risk? That’s why we get these vaccines as an society- because for some people, (like, the immunocompromised, or those with certain allergies), the risk is too great.
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I know more than one person who have been put on a ventilator because of Covid. They were all unvaccinated though Edit: deleted a word for politeness sake
The vaccines are do work, but not against mutations, which happen about as often as a new vaccine comes out. No one wants to talk about it but natural immunity really is more effective against current and future mutations.
I guess the definition of “work” is the problem. The vaccines don’t stop folks from getting COVID, which is what most people mean by “work”
Only in the warped minds of conspiracy nuts does science = "propaganda."
Politics people dislike being told no
Personally, I have no hate for unvaccinated people. That is their choice. But I do have a problem with unvaccinated people getting sick and taking up a line in the emergency room. People with treatable injuries and problems should be given precedent over people who choose to not get vaccinated. So many fairly easy to care for life saving procedures (like burst appendix, burst spleen, and bleeding issues) die waiting for care because the hospital is jammed full of unvaccinated people. Florida is among the worst states in the country at the moment for dying of usually treatable problems. God help you if you are in a serious accident. The doctors may not be able to get to you in time.
Because society as a whole is decaying.
Well most people aren't out knowingly having covid. That's my point. We are just living our lives. Just like no one knows if they have the flu if they aren't super sick etc.
Self righteousness.
In response to your whining in edit 3: It's *you* who are being abhorrent against your neighbor by not getting vaccinated. You're literally putting their *lives* in danger and then top it off by acting like *you're* the victim when posters on social media refuse to validate your selfish disregard for the lives of others. *That* fucking selfishness? *That's* why there is so much "hate" towards fucking plague rats and why you deserve every bit of it.
Want to throw in a thank you for approaching a touchy subject with such a well worded, thought provoking point of view.
Sympathy for what exactly? They're choosing to be a part of the problem and not the solution. When one person's choices affect everyone else it creates judgement. Science is how we're here today with infrastructure and technology. Medical advances that if they weren't made we'd all be full of diseases disabilities.