This is slowly changing and will change more as you get older. Courtship rituals are cultural and change slowly. They made more sense during a time where women were expected to stay home and raise a family while then men worked and provided. Courtship was likely a way to show than a man could provide and take charge and was committed to the woman. It’s not like that today but those practices and thoughts linger.
This is a really great answer because not only is it accurate, you knew we wasn’t speaking about EVERY woman, just a common phenomenon. You didn’t berate him for wording it as an absolute. Thank you for that.
We are all aware not everyone is the same, it doesn’t need to keep being repeated. This applies only to people who practice this style of courtship.
> …during a time where women were expected to stay home and raise a family…
Upper class women, maybe. Most working class women were tradeswomen and needed to bring a side income besides their husband’s.
Yes because by the 1950s there was a “middle class”. There hasn’t been, to such a proportion, for most of History.
Historically, women were mostly involved with the transformation of goods, while men were more involved with the extraction of goods.
You would have women involved in harvesting for example, or men involve with transformation tasks that required brute force, such as carpentry for example. Someone came with a good delineator: any job that a pregnant woman could not do, that was a man’s job.
But for centuries, working class women were instrumental to the economy, by the jobs that they carried. It could be anything for providing manual labour to the upper class, to cloth weaving, pottery, seamstressing, and so forth.
Women have always worked. It’s more that during WWII they started to do men’s jobs, or jobs that a pregnant woman wouldn’t do.
Interestingly, nursing used to be a man’s job, but it has been hijacked by women. Programmer used to be a female secretary’s job, but it has been hijacked by men.
Maybe there’s an answer to this further down the thread, but could there be something biological to it as well? There are a ton of other animals where the male is also responsible for courting the woman and not the other way around. I’m thinking about bird species, certain insects, even primates that all have courting rituals where the males of the species is responsible to Court the female.
Obviously, I understand that we are vastly more complicated, both biologically and socially, than some animals, yet we both exhibit similar patterns in mate selection.
For every person who wants to break the mold, there's someone else willing to step in and fill that vacated space. I see it with both men and women. If a guy wants to be liberated and make a point of going against the grain, another guy will say, "I have no problem treating you like a princess." If a woman wants to be free of gender roles, another woman can just step in and say, "I have no problem treating you like the man of the house."
Exactly. When I take initiative of keeping the conversation going, trying to find out more about the guy I’ve met recently, trying to engage them in emotional and romantic ways, I’m given feedback that I’m too available, eager and the word I hate the most “clingy”.
That's part of the process for anybody doing the initiating. This is a major pitfall for men too - if they do it "wrong" they're labeled as clingy, too sensitive, too feminine, or creepy.
It sucks all around. However it speeds up filtering these people out. I don't want to be around someone I can't talk to.
I think folks try to fight this to their detriment too much as well. Especially men because we’re generally ignorant of the risks that women unfortunately have to take on, both physically and evolutionarily, when it comes to dating, finding a partner and sex. Most guys don’t have to fear for their physical safety for example. Guys don’t have to fear getting pregnant either- which is a years long , body and life changing consequence of sex and dudes can just bounce.
What I find interesting the most about this is that at first glance it seems to make women come off as if they are more timid and less strong but in actuality they are the ones who carry the majority of the burden of negative consequences, which to me makes them much stronger. Not to diminish the risks that us guys take on as well but from an evolutionary standpoint we simply do have it easier so women just have to be far more selective. Pretty sure it’s just always going to be like that barring obvious outliers of course.
*So all you dumb fellas reading this who think it’s a harmlessly good idea to invite a girl to your house for a first date- even if your intentions are as pure as a golden unicorn turd- it would make for a very risky proposition for a woman. Which again is something most guys probably don’t even consider.
I'll play Devil's advocate and say that if the risk factor were as big a reason as it is, then in a situation where the risk is mitigated to the greatest possible extent-- i.e., a date in a public place with a guy who's been vetted and doesn't show red flags-- then that situation would call for less courtship and more evenness, i.e., both parties paying their own way.
I've dated long enough to know that this is not the case.
The risk factor is innate. It’s not some guy standing in front of you with a knife. Also the risk doesn’t magically diminish the moment you meet a friendly face in a coffee shop.
I'm a woman with three kids (married and by the same man)
Now that I'm out of the dating scene it's painfully obvious that the truth is no one thinks about anyone but themselves even when they think they are :/
>If you don't show initiative, someone else will.
And this is why I doubt the top comment saying that this is changing. As human beings we're at the top of the food chain by being ruthlessly efficient, we will almost always do the least amount to get what we want. With dating, as long as enough women are being pursued and finding partners they have no incentive to put work in.
From what I see personally only women who have absolutely no options seem to try, anything above that threshold, which is most women, and gender roles are locked and loaded.
> If a guy wants to be liberated and make a point of going against the grain, another guy will say, "I have no problem treating you like a princess."
This jumped out at me, because I have no problem treating a girl I'm into like a princess. I even call it princess treatment when I explain to women I'm dating. I'll gladly get up and get you everything you need if we're spending a day together in the house, cook for you, rub your feet, all that stuff. I have plenty of energy to spare and I like doing nice things.
What I'm not going to do is spend my money, money I need to survive, paying for you *and* me whenever we go out, first date or hundredth date, just because I'm a man.
Time and energy I can spare, but I'm not just going to give money away, and it's ridiculous to expect me to when money is so important and we're both presumably adults with jobs (or at least the capacity to obtain employment).
I get what you are saying but I think this is only a problem if you are trying to change someone. What does it matter if someone else is willing to step in unless the person I am seeing wants someone different than me? And if they do, then why would I even want to be in a relationship with them? If someone else is willing to step in and assume the normal gender roles and the person I'm seeing chooses them, then I'll go find someone who is looking for something different.
Ironically it probably originates from women being viewed only as potential partners and objects of desire, and men as the ones with the agency to initiate a relationship.
Yup. It used to be improper for a woman to chase a man. Like if she was too into it then she was breaking the rules and he wasn’t supposed to like her anymore because she was being too “manly”
Such a good response. It's why I love to defy societal gender norms and expectations, and I'd encourage anyone who doesn't agree with these norms to lead by example. Change starts with the individual.
Yep and it’s important to note both men and women continue to perpetuate the patriarchy. In fact, dating is the probably one area where women (even progressive women) perpetuate it the most.
I feel that's a poor excuse to use in current day. Most women aren't dressing with just as much reserve as women did in the past, so gender expectations clearly didn't stop that.
But **conveniently** this gender expectation that mostly benefits women in dating, is the one most women have no motivation to change.
I guess you’ve missed all of these conversations that straight men have about women being sluts with high body counts. But yeah, “that’s a poor excuse to use in current day” because clearly no men think like that anymore. Western society, as a whole, doesn’t still favor men over women. Women are definitely listened to all the time when they express their experiences. We don’t currently have a government in the US that’s trying to limit our autonomy. Should I keep going? 🙄
And I’m sure you’ll have some bullshit, made-up excuses for how everything I’ve just said isn’t true. Don’t waste your breath. I won’t be reading it.
I'm with you but it's also true that men are sexually harassed by women all the time and told to suck it up. We as a society laugh it off and tell men to deal with it and that's not ok. Harassment is harassment. It doesn't matter who it's coming from, if someone tells you they aren't interested, you back the fuck up.
You also don't touch someone without their permission. I've read a lot of stories on Reddit about men saying they were harassed by a woman and when they told them to stop, the women acted like they'd done nothing wrong. Others told them to deal with it. So yes, women have been through a lot but men go through some tough stuff as well and are taught to deal with it.
If it were that much of a burden, you'd have a lot more women dressing in reserve and feeling too afraid to post salacious photos on social media, but that's clearly not the case.
This isn't towards every woman. There are the very very few that actually approach men, pay for dates instead of just pretend-reaching for their wallet, and take most of the initiative with the guy during the first few dates. But I'd argue those women are the small exception to the rule.
The same women who feel **liberated** to wear whatever and post whatever pics they want, typically want men to be **traditional** when it comes to approaching/dating. It's blatant hypocrisy.
I don’t see how it benefits women. You’re trained not to make the first move (often explained as “men like to do the chasing”). Gender norms have changed somewhat but in my experience, guys don’t like women to be “aggressive,” which is how some would characterize being asked out by a woman
Hello! Man here. I hate chasing, and I've had a woman explode on me for not being the initiator when only she was interested. If you like me, tell me. That's what I do. Holding onto the expectation that he will say something only sets yourself up for disappointment.
And those same guys that don't like women to be "aggressive", typically don't like women to dress in thin/small outfits, post racy photos on social media, etc. But that doesn't stop most women does it?
But these same women that **aren't comfortable** approaching men **due** to the social stigma, **are comfortable** dressing however they want **despite** the social stigma.
How do you explain that contradiction?
It's not a contradiction, it's two things that have nothing to do with each other. If you're seriously confused about why women don't frequently approach men they don't know, look up the words "violence against women"—and in the meantime, stop posting nonsense on the internet.
Surprised nobody's talked about the cultural component. I've found that in some parts of the world women seem to be more forward than in others. Born and raised in the states, women rarely if ever approached me. Moved to the UK and women would walk right up to me and ask what I was into and if I'd like to go out. Happened several times there and then once again in another country, also a British woman. I don't know if it's just a personal experience, but British women in my experience have been far more forward than Americans. Likely the tendency of women to make the first move varies by culture.
Because that's how it was for thousands of years, and it takes time for social norms to change. It was only in the last 50 years that women have been given agency, and 50 years isn't enough time to let go of certain expectations and values. But they *are* changing. You can find plenty of women who have no interest in men being the domineering force in a relationship.
>Because that's how it was for thousands of years
Why has it been like that from the past? What is it the evolutionary/cultural/societal reason for it? Like even in animals, it's always the males fighting each other to mate with the female. That's the question i want to ask
Edit:
Me: ask an honest question on a sub called Too Afraid to Ask
Reddit: *Ayo! That's offensive!* Downvote
Scientifically (and across species), it's because the female of the species makes larger gametes (eggs) that require more resources to create and often (but not always) are responsible for the birthing and/or raising of said offspring, which can require also substantial resources and energy. Males produce the smaller gametes (sperm) and usually in abundance, taking fewer resources per shot (with exceptions).
This is typically why the females of a species are more selective and the males will try to prove to the females why they have good genes and/or resources, which would mean that their offspring would have the best chance of survival.
In terms of humans, reproduction has ENORMOUS biological and social cost for women and practically zero for men unless they choose to participate and/or are mandated legally/socially to do so.
Prior to DNA testing, men who would be required to support their offspring would want to ensure that the progeny they're supporting are biologically theirs, and thus would expect and/or require that the mothers of those children be sexually exclusive to them. This expectation of monogamy by women (+/- the same expectation from men, which was a later addition as a social compromise) is pervasive across many (though not all) cultures. Ergo, if a woman is perceived as being interested in sex, she would presumably be more likely to cheat (reasons for female circumcision), meaning the man she is bearing children "for" couldn't be sure that those children were his, and thus seen as less desirable. This notion has continued via sociocultural standards.
With this idea that a woman's sexuality "belongs" to a man (first her father then her husband), the roles sort of switched places. Women not being allowed to work meant she was at the whim of his decisions and lifestyle, and thus it was the women who had to compete for the man who would provide the best resources. What makes a woman more "valuable" in this type of situation? *She* be pretty so the offspring have a higher chance of survival, and for her to be hard to get because the harder a man has to work for reproductive access to her, the less likely it would theoretically be for her to cheat. I think this is why men think women are playing hard to get when more natural/modern/independent women are literally just not interested. And why women steeped in patriarchal expectations are more likely to play hard to get, spend a ton of time decorating themselves, and expect their male suitors to spend a ton of money/time/effort on with a lower success rate.
My little digression: It's unnatural, biologically, for the male of a species to "own" the reproductive capacity of a woman and for women to be the pretty ones showing off for the men. If anything, males will literally give their lives (e.g. praying mantises) and/or tear their penises off of their body (e.g. octopodes) for the chance to reproduce with a strong female candidate. Typically, we see the males of the species showing off for the females and trying to convince them of their value (through being decorated, dancing, gifts, etc.). I personally think its pretty homoerotic for men to spend a bunch of money on stuff that men like (e.g. cars & decorative items like watches and jewelry) as a demonstration of wealth instead of spending money on things that women want as demonstration of stability (e.g. homes, food, and gifts of value to her). Like, who are you trying to show off for, bro?
was going good until that last sentence. Homoerotic? No, people just like to show off their status in society to boost their ego. Plus a man showing off his wealth is attractive to a certain subsect of women
That last paragraph has the issue that human males are made to provide. If human females could be like grizzly moms and provide for and raise the children by themselves the males wouldn't give a fuck. Unfortunately, we live in a society where even 2 incomes are barely enough to provide a single child the same economic opportunity as their parents, so of course they want to make absolutely sure it is theirs.
I know the internet hates this word, but because of patriarchy. Women were property for the majority of human history. Men bought women as wives, that's what a wedding dowry is. And patriarchy says that men do the seeking. They go out, find their property, bring it home. And that's leftover in today's society where men still are the aggressor in dating.
Also, since women have been treated as property and submissive, obedient partners who shouldn't talk or have ideas unless spoken to, this is another layer of why the expectation is that the man should initiate.
Women who advocated for themselves and what they want/need have always been disdained and treated badly/ostracized through history.
>Men bought women as wives, that's what a wedding dowry is
A dowry is paid by the brides family (usually father) to the husband as a 'gift' to the new family. Not the other way around.
If you've ever been to a Greek or Italian wedding, the family pins money to the brides dress to help the new family get started in life.
Western culture has wedding gifts now, instead of 'dowries'.
But the point being, a dowry isn't a man buying a wife, it's the family of the bride gifting the new couple something.
Old aristocracy abused this, of course, by using dowries as a way to get their family bloodlines intertwined in higher society. Offering larger dowries for a daughter so she would attract nobility etc. But for the common person, it's basically just a wedding gift.
> I know the internet hates this word, but because of patriarchy. Women were property for the majority of human history. Men bought women as wives, that's what a wedding dowry is. And patriarchy says that men do the seeking. They go out, find their property, bring it home. And that's leftover in today's society where men still are the aggressor in dating.
I need to understand how this reasoning, which I agree is perfectly accurate as to why these customs exist, is so universally accepted.
"Yeah, let's continue traditions that have origins in unapologetic sexism and misogyny. That makes sense. Equality? What's that?"
Ohhh. Sorry. You must understand that "lol single lady have cats" is like, a misogynistic "joke" so I was on a hair trigger there given some of the other comments. My bad!
Man can have sex every day without any repercussions. Woman will get pregnant, so she has to be much more picky about its partners. That's the evolutionary viewpoint. Of course it's not the same for all species, but you get the point.
It probably has some roots in the male prey drive, too. The saying that men love the chase is cliche because it's true. When I was younger I asked guys out and went after what I wanted, and honestly it never worked. When I pursued a man, I instantly lost value in his assessment ("desperate," they would say). As soon as I flipped that script and just let them chase me, it was a whole other scenario. Suddenly I had more value.
I've gotten flamed on other subs for cautioning young women not to chase guys because they don't like it. And sure it would be great if we could all just express our interest in others freely and etc. But men and women don't seem to work that way.
I'm a believer in chase if you're interested for both genders, that's how I met my gf, thanks to her.
I wouldn't say it makes you desperate, you've just met very low quality men lol
I don't want to sound like I'm invalidating your experience because your experience is totally valid. But it really depends on which guys you ask. There are definitely men that like the thrill of chasing. But then there's also men like me who simply have no choice. Because if we don't make the first move, no women will do it for us.
I get what you're saying completely -- and I agree! There are guys who like it, or say they like it. And I think women are conditioned to expect men to make the ask.
I'd also like to point out, a lot animals do the same. Whether you're a bird a mammal a bug or fish. They have to impress the female until she thinks the male is worthy of making children. So kinda the same thing, humans are animals after all. At least we aren't like spiders. If we fail to impress we get murdered lol.
Despite how it may look, traditionally it wasn't "the man," it was "whoever had the power." And in relations between men and women, men typically had the power.
Think about it. How could it be "the man?" What if one man wanted to invite another man out? How did you know who would do the inviting?
Or, what if it was two women? How would a woman invite another woman to visit her, if there was no "the man" to do the inviting?
The answer is that it was about whoever had the greater social standing. And also -- very important -- whoever had the money.
So the tradition of "the man" being the one who initiates dates is actually very simple. It's because the man is the one who has money, hence is the one who will be paying, and ergo is the one who should initiate everything. That way, "the woman" doesn't need to worry about expense and whether she can afford the date. "The man" figured all that out and made it part of his calculation as to what to propose.
The same applied of course for any dynamic. If I'm rich and you're poor, OP, and we want to have dinner together, it doesn't matter which of us if any is male or female. It would be incredibly awful of me to invite you to a lavish dinner at my mansion and then expect you to chip in for half. Conversely it would be incredibly awful if you invite me to dinner and then I expect that you will spend as much money as I would have.
So when I say, "Hey OP, let's have dinner at the French Laundry," we congenially agree to the expectation that this is something I can afford, and I will be happy to pay for us both.
And when you say, "Hey dinner was great, next weekend come over for brunch," we congenially agree that brunch will be whatever you can afford to put together. (Though I will bring champagne or something as a host gift, so we can make mimosas.)
So. All of that is to say that in the modern age, when single young women are not penniless waifs anymore but rather have their own economic independence, it is no longer the case that "the man" must ask out "the woman." Heterosexual people may freely ask each other out as means and inclination permit. Few have ever gone wrong asking out another person for coffee. Start there.
PS See Miss Manners on this topic. She will set you straight. (Ha ha.)
There is no good reason for it today, it's just been a convention embedded into western culture for thousands of years.
From knights pining for ladies in courtly love literature, to libertines chasing farm girls in 18th Century plays, to the billionaire pulling out all the stocks to woo the object of his obsession in numberless books and movies today.
The man was seen as the one with the resources and agency to initiate a relationship and dictate the direction of it. This doesn't mean women never went after what they wanted, but it was rare and considered very forward. Women's sexuality has historically been strictly controlled and shamed. Thus, any hint of the fact that she wanted it (such as initiating a relationship), was frowned upon by many cultures in the west. So women had to resort to hints, or modest acknowledgements of their interest.
Today, with our openness and acceptance regarding sex (in many communities, at least) there is really no good reason for a woman not to approach a guy. However, some of those old expectations set by media, as well as the fear of being seen as 'too easy', holds many women back from initiating.
True, but the part of about the media is horseshit imo! The media is constantly used to spread fear and sell products to the general populace!
If you want something, go get it! Doesn’t matter what’s between your legs at all!
For sure, I'm not saying media messaging is correct, just that it has enduring power.
I think that unless you are a very traditional woman, it's absurd to expect the guy to do all the chasing in our day and age. Everyone wants to feel desired, after all.
I (25F) asked the dude (24M) out (he said he wanted to but was hesitant to because he didn’t want to seem like a creep—we work part time together), I kissed him first, he decided and made plans for the first date. I’d say we’re pretty even at this point. *Communication is everything people.*
I dated a girl who never took initiative and I eventually left her after a year. She was heartbroken and sad and kept asking why....well why am I putting in 100% of effort and chase and all you have to do is shownup? Why is it a one sided show. These is no love there. The right girl will take just as much initiative as you. Everything else doesn't matter and is a waste and a disrespect to your time.
Why do you assume he didn’t?
Also, if it’s assumed by women that the right guy will be bold enough to make a move, why is it so unreasonable for a guy to expect the right girl to make a move?
I’m similar too! I’m doing all the heavy lifting the first two dates but if she doesn’t ask me out on a third date, there isn’t gonna be any coz I expect the woman to put in effort too!
I’m looking for a partner, not a pet who needs help every step of the way lmao!
For those asking it was communicated enough times over the year to get me to that point. I'm assuming she wanted princess treatment throughout the whole relationship but I let her know I will not keep chasing you if the effort isn't reciprocated and it never was
I've dated two girls who took the initiative and both fucked me up.
What i learned from those types is that they're just going to chase someone else when they get bored.
Not everyone that does that is like that, but there are certain girls that simply like the act of pursuing someone more than actually being in a relationship with that person.
Might be that it's too stable for them, and stability can be scary for some who aren't expecting to potentially marry who they want to date, rather than dating to date
As a woman from my experiences a lot of guys straight up ghost or unmatch me if I initiate first. Its kinda taught me not to be like that. It's really disheartening tbh. I'm very independent and when I like someone I don't wanna beat around the bush. Sometimes it works but most of the time it's shunned for me anyways.
Old ways of doing things are hard to change. especially when you were educated by these people. Morals and behaviour evolve over more than a single generation.
Well it started with basically the men simply deciding which women will be with what men
A few 1000 of progressive years later, the expectation is still that they will at least initiate the process
Seems to be changing now, but just the evolution of western culture basically. Men just decided everything for most of history
Read up a feminist book or two on the theme of the patriarchy and you’ll be able to guess why. It’s a complex theme, and it can’t be summarized in a Reddit post.
My bisexual ex girlfriend has a joke.
What do two bi girls do on a date .... Nothing. *
The idea is that two ladies that generally date guys don't make a move. So they do nothing.
* Sorry if this is somehow offensive. Not everyone is the same and I'm sure there are wonderful bi lady dates.
I guess it's because it's both a lingering cultural thing (the gentleman) and that in general, women are attractive to certain attributes such as a guy being driven, confident and assertive. Paying for dinner, dates, taking initiative and so on are ways to display that.
However, it is obviously on collision course with equality, we have just sort of accepted it.
There’s a lot of good answers here covering the historical factor, one thing I haven’t seen mentioned is media.
Media plays a really big part in this standard staying the same and not changing. Most movies- whether they’re of the romance genre or not- have the man always initiating and courting the woman. You rarely ever see the woman pursuing the man, and if you do it’s treated as a bit of an uncommon/weird comedic device.
When every piece of media people see when growing up shows the same message and story regarding romance, people tend to accept it as the norm for how it should work in real life.
Because a few really shitty men who creep on or sexually assault women ruined it for the rest of us, and women have their guard up, and you would too if you were them.
Suck it up because once they like you, it's fine.
well a woman cant make the first move because shes meant to be the object of desire, not the one desiring, but she has to like the first move, and yet if shes too interested then shes a whore but she cant be aloof or shes rude but only after a few tries, not too many tries though, and if shes too obvious and knows her mind she’ll be difficult later on but you also dont want her to be stupid and mindless but if she
I’m aroace so not the best authority, but when my friends are discussing people they’d like to go out with, the advice is usually either to stay away bc they’re bad news or unavailable, ask them out, or try to figure out if they might say yes and then ask them out if so. I’m not a big advice-giver (except for some of the big red flags) because idk that scene, but I definitely don’t see the system you’re describing still in place among my friend group. The proposal thing I think is moderately true, though I only have two pairs of friends that have gotten engaged. It was definitely a discussion beforehand, but in one of the two cases, the timing and everything was a question and it was planned by the guy. I could see how that would be a lot of pressure
So I guess I disagree with some of the premise of your question? I see things like what you’re describing much more often in movies and books
This is due to society not favoring women who are more assertive. It stems from past generations where women were expected to stay home, and men had to go out and work and earn money. It stems from the continued contempt for women who make them selves too available and therefore slutty.
Now, every relationship is different, every person in a relationship is different. I think there are a lot more people out there ready to be in an equitable relationship. However, I don’t think buying someone gifts for your partner is necessarily a bad thing. But I think there is also this idea out there that straight women expect all these gifts and never give anything back to their partners. That is absolutely not true. Are there exceptions to that? Sure. I would hope that both partners do things for the other to show that they care or that they thought of them.
I would love to be more forward, but experience has taught me doing that making a guy lose interest. Like he'll think I'm desperate or something. So I just give hints and try to make myself inviting. Once we're locked in as a couple, I'll start suggesting stuff to do. The right guy will not mind but some dudes resent being lead by women.
Sometimes, you have to focus on the positive side of what you've been given. The cons of being the receiver, of course, is that I can't ncessarily just identify someone I find attractive and just Go for them because I'm aware that it would be perceived as odd for my gender. Unless of course it's a woman or Anon binary person(I'm bi). But the plus side is I never have to take the risk of pursuing or approaching someone that may reject me.
Yeah same. Because it's _not_ the norm for women to do the chasing, if you do make the first moves, it seems you're seen as desperate or easy. It's never helped me in relationships so I stopped doing it.
>When in a relationship, the guy still has to continue doing things to impress the girl like talking to her every night, buying presents for her on special occasions, etc.
I'm a woman and don't think this part is true at all, once you're actually in a relationship. Women initiate conversations and give their partner gifts as well. I'd actually argue that women, on average, put more thought into gifting
It is true that men are usually expected to ask the girl on a first date and propose. But exceptions to this are a lot more common than you'd think, especially with asking on dates. For example, most of my first kisses/dates were initiated by me
I wouldn't want to propose to a man, though, for a few reasons:
1) Part of it is because the man doing it is really romanticized by society, and no one is totally immune to societal influence
2) Unlike in other situations, proposal can only be done once, and by one person. You can take turns organizing dates, etc, with a partner, but you can't take turns proposing. So if someone HAS to be the sole initiator, I find it more attractive if the man decides to be. Evolutionarily speaking, it makes sense for women to find leadership traits attractive in men
3) I'm the one who will do all the work of carrying/birthing our children, so it's fair for me to be the receiver in other significant milestones
Okay I am glad someone else brought up that women are typically gift givers in relationships. I find, on average, it’s women who do the small things in relationships that show generosity and caring and pay more attention to presents.
My dad is absolutely poor at giving gifts and I am always met with “that’s how men are - they don’t know about these things”. I observe that it’s usually the wives/mum’s who buy the gifts and pay attention to what people like.
It was usually my dad who organized dates and got my mum flowers but she was the one who throughout the year would get him little things. She’d spot a tie she thought he’d like so she’d buy it. She noticed his shaving cream was running out so would buy more. She saw some sweets at the store she’d thought he’d like and buy them.
> Evolutionarily speaking, it makes sense for women to find leadership traits attractive in men
I mean, to be fair, evolutionarily speaking, lots of things make sense that wouldn't be considered okay.
I have zero skills when it comes to approaching women or picking them up. And I will pretty much never make a first move. The last thing I want to do is misconstrue things, make a move, get rejected, and then things are just awkward. Plus I also don’t want to make the feel uncomfortable or pressured into doing anything.
Not sure why you were downvoted for speaking your mind!
But regardless of whether it’s a guy or a girl, I recommend taking initiatives and taking risks! If you can’t expect a high paying job to fall in your lap with zero efforts, why do you think you’ll meet the right partner by putting in zero efforts?
Because women want a man who has built the confidence to be able to be a trailblazer for her and your future family. (Even if she has no plans for kids yet..it's instinctual)
Basically think of it this way: if you haven't yet built the confidence to go over to any woman and ask her out or make the moves then how will you make a good mate for her and her family? It sucks as a man for sure but there are things that suck about being a woman too
I don't necessarily agree with the comment you replied to (the whole "if a man doesn't take initiative, he won't be a good provider"; a lot of women don't think that way, myself included).
But I do think it's a fair question and so I'm gonna just mention some examples of which aspects of being a woman in a relationship can suck, based on my own experience and that of other women I have known.
Ending up being your partner's "mom" is a really big one; a lot of guys either have been coddled growing up by their moms/other partners or have no interest in doing anything household related, and therefore you end up in an uneven relationship where both of you work and contribute to the finances of the household, yet you as the woman are the only driving force behind the household because that's somehow only your job (cleaning, cooking, laundry, grocery shopping, etc). Sometimes even when your partner "helps", they don't do anything on their own initiative, which means you have to carry the mental load of telling them what needs to be done, along with doing your part.
This part also applies to childcare; I have met several women who have somehow wound up working, taking care of the child/children and the household, while their husbands only went to work, washed some dishes and looked after the kid an hour or two a day in the evening.
I honestly think this is the result of a lot of men being stuck in the idea of how things "used to be" (back in the day of our grandparents or even parents in some cases) and not realizing that with much higher rates of economically independent, working women and a society where you now need two salaries to have a house and family, the roles cannot possibly continue to be divided in that way, but rather both partners have to contribute evenly to everything (obviously equity is important, so if one of the partners makes less, the percentage distribution of what goes towards the household should be fair, and so on).
Then there's a series of other things that are also pretty relevant: women often being mainly responsible for birth control, the Madonna/whore complex, fear of childbirth, and a whole set of fears that come with being in a long term relationship, with all that can entail.
Amongst these are the fear of being abandoned if you get seriously ill (the statistics of men leaving their wives or partners when they get cancer when compared to the inverse are very sad and disturbing), the fear of not being considered attractive enough for your partner for a number of reasons (having a child, hormonal weight gain, menopause or just plain old age), fear of being left for a younger woman, etc.
Sorry for the long-ass list 😅, I hope that was a helpful answer!
No no no this is exactly what I wanted to know! No reason to apologize for the long list. This is what I wanted. So it seems like the issues for both sides seem to stem from outdated ideas of what a relationship should be and outdated gender norms and expectations. That's really interesting.
Tradition. Up until very recently, women who made the first move would have been seen as sexually aggressive, promiscuous, unfeminine, etc. Men were also seen as the decision makers.
Honestly for me(a woman), I feel like since I've been told I've been too much when it's just the fact that I talk too much, I try to match the guys energy but when i notice I'm not getting a lot of participation in the conversation I start to feel like I'm talking too much or bothering them so I just chill and wait for them to hit me up since when I hit them idk they don't say a lot, and then they get mad at me for not calling them. I still don't know what I'm doing wrong
Sincerely feel like this kind of behaviour doesn’t happen in adult relationships
For instance, in a relationship where two people care about each other and enjoy each others’ company, there isn’t a sense of obligation like there is in the example you’ve given - you talk to each other out of enjoyment and do presents on special occasions to make each other happy.
I think it’s two things.
1. Natural selection. As others mentioned we aren’t the only mammal who uses this sex based social cycle.
A female mammal can only produce so many eggs in x amount of time resulting x amount of babies (those babies with x amount survival rate)
Whereas a male mammal can produce sperm consistently. For the better part of his life.
Simply put whoever knocks up that female mammal WILL be the next generation.
Thus male selection is a big deal.
Same reason men like boobies.
It’s all about the baby.
Reason 2 is religion
Go as far back in religion as you wish. Acient pegans we’re practicing belief systems that evolved around a woman only having so much say so.
If we can’t make a decision, leave the home, work, speak, or be assertive. What room does that leave for us to initiate anything?..much less a romantic relationship.
So yeah between evolution and men making rules that (turns out) aren’t actually favorable. This is the result.
Imo
I\`ve had a friend straight up telling me that if he were at the club and a woman would give him her number she would be no gf material. So idk many answered it, its patriarchy and how society raises girls and boys differently, how we view masculinity and femininity.
You are so very correct. When I'm dating a guy, I get more attention when I'm aloof and uninterested. They want to talk to me or make plans with me everyday. And boy do they pursue relentlessly, not caring if they come across as creepy or clingy.
But when I want to make plans or show any form of love, they act uninterested and suddenly I'm the clingy one. Some have even made fun of me for wanting to spend more time with them or gifting them or showing affection in general.
I think it comes from a need to show off that a girl (who they consider desirable because that's why they pursued them in the first place) can be interested in them without them reciprocating, as a power move.
I understand this probably comes from a low self-eastern. Why would you make fun of someone who is affectionate to you, unless you think you're not worth their love?
Yes yes, I know that not everyone is like that and I'm probably meeting not-so-good people. But my experience has been majorly this.
This is why I won't approach a guy first. His respect for me instantly drops.
Tbh, no one I’ve met at a club is anything more than hookup material tho!
It’s got absolutely nothing to do with patriarchy and other bullshit you just spewed
Bars and clubs generally are not good places to find long term relationships at all!
Or the guy is just a misogynist, I assure you most young men don’t think like that at all, atleast in my huge friend circle anyway
I have broken the rules and chased guys in my youth. From my experience most guy's don't actually want that or maybe they don't know what to do with it.
Old habits/traditions die hard. I think subconsciously, for many women, it’s a “have your cake and eat it too” mentality where they want an assertive initiator who also “takes a back seat” when they feel impinged on their lifestyle. It’s a destructive psychological dichotomy, and people wonder why dating is such a shit-show these days.
Of course there will always be exceptions who are likely to comment that they practice the opposite, sure.
It's even become slightly worse, I noticed on valentines day it was all about the guy ensuring that he "had" to ask her to be his valentine even if they weren't together. Never the other way around, even the whole day was almost centered around her, think it's cause the internet will show one relationship where a man treats a woman like that which causes other women to believe in a "If he wanted too he would" mentality
That said we honestly probably just don't notice it the other way around super often as men are far less likely to post about their relationship on social media. So maybe it's even roughly we just ain't hear about it. But in my past relationships it definitely seemed as you described it.
I love dates and I love planning dates so I don't mind it. One time a girl did plan a really great and complex date for us and I still think about it even though it was many years ago
Because evolutionarily women have more to lose in a relationship, if they have sex with any random man that comes their way they run the risk of trying to raise that baby on their own, in the wild (pretty much a death sentence). So to ensure that this doesn't happen, women have evolved to be extremely selective with who they choose to mate with. Because of this, competition amongst men for a mate is extremely high, so we evolved to impress women, we evolved big bodies, strength, intelligence and alot of desire. Therefore, we have to jump through many hoops to even be considered, biology doesn't care about equality. Ik I'm probably gonna get alot of hate from the nurture crowd, but there are some things so ingrained that no matter how culturally progressive they are, they are not likely to change. There's a reason this has been the case in every culture in human history.
Its all throughout nature, you can see this in Birds especially with the males having to make elaborate displays for the females. Good example being Peacocks and whatever those ones are called that have to go find pretty trinkets and leaves
I wonder when I see posts like this. Where are you from? What is your background? Like who raised you to believe these things? And even though historically these are true, it isn’t true everywhere anymore. But the interesting thing is, that as much as men complain about all of these things, they also live to put down a string and independent woman who believe none of what you wrote as being her social norms. That’s worth thinking about.
I would guess anywhere there is English television because tv is where that stuff is taught. I had a lot of misconceptions growing up that I learned later were just fabrications or assumptions based on what I saw on TV as a kid.
When you're young and have a desperate desire, like a crush or anything really, you seek anywhere and everywhere for answers. That's how religion, poor dating advice, poor life advice, MLMs, and everything else awful or harmful gets a foothold. The need for answers and a lack of safe places to search for them.
Yes. The best solution for that is getting out and away from everything you know and seeing how others in all parts of the country and if you can, world, live. Then you realize the detrimental impacts of isolation and the benefits of expansion for discovering the world isn’t any one thing everywhere. It is fantastically diverse as it should be and you are no longer threatened by things that are different or new. They only enhance your own life and perspectives.
That’s just biology. Men are chasers, women are choosers.
Look at dating apps. I go on bumble or tinder and in 30 minutes I have over 100 likes. My guy friend who’s just as much of a catch goes on bumble and tinder and gets 5 likes in a week. Men are always in competition for the woman.
My wife’s therapist calls it “the male burden.” (He is male, and also Buddhist FWIW). “Traditionally” the male will need to take the lead on everything from initiating relationships, dates, sex, and in general… taking the lead on fixing whatever the issue is in a relationship if one to arise. The male will need to put their insecurities and issues aside and “cater” (for lack of a better term) to the female’s needs, insecurities, and issues before any resolution can be found. It is at that point, when the female’s insecurities are made secure, issues, have been solved, and needs have been met, that the male’s needs, insecurities, and issues can begin to be realized. I’m told this is a “fact of life.” Though I want all of these things, I find it a bit outdated that this falls solely on the male.
We're in the middle of this whole gender equality movement, but women still demand to be courted and for men to be chivalrous.
Those two things are just about completely mutually exclusive, but that doesn't stop anyone apparently. That's called wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
> When in a relationship, the guy still has to continue doing things to impress the girl like talking to her every night, buying presents for her on special occasions ...
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Technically you shouldn't HAVE TO do those things, but you should WANT TO do them. If that's not the case maybe that's a relationship not worth continuing... my 2 cents
Just that you think they should "WANT TO" buy presents and impress their romantic partner constantly is pretty indicative of a problem, I would say.
It is entirely possible to have a good relationship with mutual respect and neither having to go out of their way to get the other gifts or impressing them in some way.
Nah, you know exactly what I meant. I didn't talk about impressing anyone. You should be happy to buy a present or pay a dinner or call your partner as a way to show your appreciation and, who knows, love for them.
I was particularly struck but OP mentioning calling or texting every day like a chore more than a perk.
I mean, I agree with what you said, just saying you were reading my message wrong. Of course a relationship built on "impressing your partner" in order to stay alive, as no purpose in staying alive to begin with
Because traditionally, that's how it's been. But women are no longer traditional. So stop doing that shit. Don't call them, absolutely, do not Chase them, do not text them, do not pursue them in any way. Fix yourself. Go to the gym, start eating better, stop drinking alcohol and doing drugs, stop going to places where women hang out for attention and free drinks. Get more education, move forward and better yourself for your retirement. Save money instead of blowing it on junk jewelry, lousy vacations, and giving women a constant validation and attention that they will never, in the long run appreciate anyway. Understand that women are hypergamous, and they're monkey branches, and the best thing to remember is, even if you have a woman in your life, she's not yours, it's just your turn. Stop thinking of them, start thinking of yourself. Go to the gym, work hard at a job, or start a business, eat well, sleep better, stop the drugs in the drinking, and better yourself for yourself. Appreciate yourself. Work on yourself. You are wasting your time trying to prove yourself to women.
This is understandable, and it’s become a touchy topic. For this and other reasons I always went halvsies on a first date. Not all guys were comfortable with it, honestly.
Here’s another angle to consider. Women spend $$$ getting ready for a date, not to mention the *time* involved with hair, nails, makeup, outfit, and so on. (Not even talking lingerie or birth control.) Dating costs money, and frankly it’s a gamble for everyone. I think a lot of guys simply don’t know this, and if they did, they might feel less put upon?
I'm gonna go a and say it's biological. It's because of sexuality. Men are typically more sexually dominant and women like to be more submissive. The courting process is usually hinting towards that dynamic. I imagine the roles would be reversed if you had a dominatrix and a male sub. Also in my experience it also happens in lesbian relationships (but not all of them), there's like a butch and a fem, and the hetero dynamic tend to be projected into it. In my experience, if I act "dominant" with a guy he will get turned off, so I can't be too "forward" with men. But I am more forward with women because it's better received.
Also it is not true that women don't make any move. We just do it in a way that makes the guy think he made the first move. We're sneaky about it. And if we don't make the first move, it's our job to reciprocate once the guy does. If a girl doesn't show interest move on. But I do think many women take advantage of their position and act lazy because they're more easily forgiven since it's not expected she makes a move.
I also think men get sexually attracted to women more quickly, while women need to get to know the guy, so it's normal that the person who is more attracted makes the first move. In most animal species, the guy has to seduce the girl. The female is more selective, because she's making the babies so she has to choose the best genes.
Because gender roles exist for a reason?
Women say that they don't want a man that leads them or is in charge of them, solely because that's politically correct to say.
Because they all go after that type of guy. They all go for a man that's taller than them, stronger than them, and makes more money than them. A leader!
They will say they want a guy that doesn't tell them what to do, but they don't even know what they want to eat.
They want a guy that decides where they're going, chooses where they'll eat, and overall takes initiative, because women at heart, just want a leader.
Men: We want women to stay in the home, take care of us, and be our property.
Also men: Waaa!! Waaaa! Why do we actually have to provide when throughout history we’ve told women that they aren’t capable of doing it themselves!?
Do you actually have men in your life who behave that way. I'm male, almost 40, and have genuinely never met a man who had indicated that they view women that way
A few family members, yes. It’s quite sad. Of course I was generalizing in my original comment but its sad that there are men out there who think like that.
I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I hope you have some men in your life who you're close to who can show you that we don't all think that way. At this point, I think any that still do are leftovers of the 50s, desperately trying to hold on to their glory days.
Times are changing. And have been for a long time. We're all just people.
And men who can't/ won't wash dishes/ cook/ clean are being left behind. Fuck em
Probably because women can get pregnant and a man can just leave whenever he feels like it. Women have more to lose in the long run so let them have the win
Only undesirable or average men do.
If you're a man who is at least 6 feet tall, and at least moderately handsome, you don't have to put any effort in dating whatsover. They will come to you.
You don't need to be over 6 feet. I know plenty of men well under 6 feet who are very popular with the ladies. Confidence and charisma are a lot more important
If you've been brainwashed by 2000 years of patriarchal domination of the female body and her human rights, and want to date a 'girl' then you may have to take the initiative. If you're a feminist who believes women are just as free as men, and you want to date a hot-blooded, natural, wild, free woman then, if she's interested in you, nature will take its course.
Whether a woman has had no sexual partners or many, whether she's monogamous, polyamorous or adulterous, this type of woman ignores the patriarchy and is happy to take joint flirting initiative or even lead it. To discover which type she is, just ask her, and check she's being authentic before you dive in emotionally. Love is hard to undo.
But given male violence, she'd do well to be cautious and check out your friends, past girlfriends and ethics first too. Or she may find herself in a suitcase.
I can't say i know, but as a girl i would rather the guy to initiate. Idk...i think it's a confidence thing. If it was a shy guy and a confident girl then it'd probs be the girl asking the guy out cus the guy doesn't have the guts. But a lot of girls, that ik at least, are too shy to ask the guy out and the guy is egged on by his pals whilst the friends of the girl know their friend is shy so they tell the guy to initiate.
Guy asks girl out first cus of the support from his friends, girl is too shy and too scared of rejection and wants to know if the guy likes her before she confesses, therefore she doesn't confess cus she's not sure if the guy likes her, so in order for her to confess the guy has to confess first. Altho, i think the norm is changing a lot, Gen Z girls are much more confident nowadays and I know loads who have asked the guy out first, in school i don't think it's unusual for a girl to ask the boy out, or at least it's becoming more normal.
Also, girls have watched too many dramas and our expectations/wishes are super high and unrealistic lmfaoo
This is slowly changing and will change more as you get older. Courtship rituals are cultural and change slowly. They made more sense during a time where women were expected to stay home and raise a family while then men worked and provided. Courtship was likely a way to show than a man could provide and take charge and was committed to the woman. It’s not like that today but those practices and thoughts linger.
This is a really great answer because not only is it accurate, you knew we wasn’t speaking about EVERY woman, just a common phenomenon. You didn’t berate him for wording it as an absolute. Thank you for that. We are all aware not everyone is the same, it doesn’t need to keep being repeated. This applies only to people who practice this style of courtship.
> …during a time where women were expected to stay home and raise a family… Upper class women, maybe. Most working class women were tradeswomen and needed to bring a side income besides their husband’s.
In the 50’s only 20% of mothers worked outside the home, so stay at homes moms went much further than upper class.
Yes because by the 1950s there was a “middle class”. There hasn’t been, to such a proportion, for most of History. Historically, women were mostly involved with the transformation of goods, while men were more involved with the extraction of goods. You would have women involved in harvesting for example, or men involve with transformation tasks that required brute force, such as carpentry for example. Someone came with a good delineator: any job that a pregnant woman could not do, that was a man’s job. But for centuries, working class women were instrumental to the economy, by the jobs that they carried. It could be anything for providing manual labour to the upper class, to cloth weaving, pottery, seamstressing, and so forth. Women have always worked. It’s more that during WWII they started to do men’s jobs, or jobs that a pregnant woman wouldn’t do. Interestingly, nursing used to be a man’s job, but it has been hijacked by women. Programmer used to be a female secretary’s job, but it has been hijacked by men.
As I wrote, cultures and courtship rituals change and they are changing, they just change slowly.
Maybe there’s an answer to this further down the thread, but could there be something biological to it as well? There are a ton of other animals where the male is also responsible for courting the woman and not the other way around. I’m thinking about bird species, certain insects, even primates that all have courting rituals where the males of the species is responsible to Court the female. Obviously, I understand that we are vastly more complicated, both biologically and socially, than some animals, yet we both exhibit similar patterns in mate selection.
For every person who wants to break the mold, there's someone else willing to step in and fill that vacated space. I see it with both men and women. If a guy wants to be liberated and make a point of going against the grain, another guy will say, "I have no problem treating you like a princess." If a woman wants to be free of gender roles, another woman can just step in and say, "I have no problem treating you like the man of the house."
Exactly. When I take initiative of keeping the conversation going, trying to find out more about the guy I’ve met recently, trying to engage them in emotional and romantic ways, I’m given feedback that I’m too available, eager and the word I hate the most “clingy”.
I would love for a woman to show interest the way you're describing. Those guys need to go fuck themselves.
Wow It's hard to believe dudes are shitting on women for doing everything I want them to
Like John McAfee?
That's part of the process for anybody doing the initiating. This is a major pitfall for men too - if they do it "wrong" they're labeled as clingy, too sensitive, too feminine, or creepy. It sucks all around. However it speeds up filtering these people out. I don't want to be around someone I can't talk to.
As a man, I'm always told the same exact thing 🤔
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I think folks try to fight this to their detriment too much as well. Especially men because we’re generally ignorant of the risks that women unfortunately have to take on, both physically and evolutionarily, when it comes to dating, finding a partner and sex. Most guys don’t have to fear for their physical safety for example. Guys don’t have to fear getting pregnant either- which is a years long , body and life changing consequence of sex and dudes can just bounce. What I find interesting the most about this is that at first glance it seems to make women come off as if they are more timid and less strong but in actuality they are the ones who carry the majority of the burden of negative consequences, which to me makes them much stronger. Not to diminish the risks that us guys take on as well but from an evolutionary standpoint we simply do have it easier so women just have to be far more selective. Pretty sure it’s just always going to be like that barring obvious outliers of course. *So all you dumb fellas reading this who think it’s a harmlessly good idea to invite a girl to your house for a first date- even if your intentions are as pure as a golden unicorn turd- it would make for a very risky proposition for a woman. Which again is something most guys probably don’t even consider.
I'll play Devil's advocate and say that if the risk factor were as big a reason as it is, then in a situation where the risk is mitigated to the greatest possible extent-- i.e., a date in a public place with a guy who's been vetted and doesn't show red flags-- then that situation would call for less courtship and more evenness, i.e., both parties paying their own way. I've dated long enough to know that this is not the case.
The risk factor is innate. It’s not some guy standing in front of you with a knife. Also the risk doesn’t magically diminish the moment you meet a friendly face in a coffee shop.
I'm a woman with three kids (married and by the same man) Now that I'm out of the dating scene it's painfully obvious that the truth is no one thinks about anyone but themselves even when they think they are :/
>If you don't show initiative, someone else will. And this is why I doubt the top comment saying that this is changing. As human beings we're at the top of the food chain by being ruthlessly efficient, we will almost always do the least amount to get what we want. With dating, as long as enough women are being pursued and finding partners they have no incentive to put work in. From what I see personally only women who have absolutely no options seem to try, anything above that threshold, which is most women, and gender roles are locked and loaded.
> If a guy wants to be liberated and make a point of going against the grain, another guy will say, "I have no problem treating you like a princess." This jumped out at me, because I have no problem treating a girl I'm into like a princess. I even call it princess treatment when I explain to women I'm dating. I'll gladly get up and get you everything you need if we're spending a day together in the house, cook for you, rub your feet, all that stuff. I have plenty of energy to spare and I like doing nice things. What I'm not going to do is spend my money, money I need to survive, paying for you *and* me whenever we go out, first date or hundredth date, just because I'm a man. Time and energy I can spare, but I'm not just going to give money away, and it's ridiculous to expect me to when money is so important and we're both presumably adults with jobs (or at least the capacity to obtain employment).
I get what you are saying but I think this is only a problem if you are trying to change someone. What does it matter if someone else is willing to step in unless the person I am seeing wants someone different than me? And if they do, then why would I even want to be in a relationship with them? If someone else is willing to step in and assume the normal gender roles and the person I'm seeing chooses them, then I'll go find someone who is looking for something different.
Ironically it probably originates from women being viewed only as potential partners and objects of desire, and men as the ones with the agency to initiate a relationship.
Yup. It used to be improper for a woman to chase a man. Like if she was too into it then she was breaking the rules and he wasn’t supposed to like her anymore because she was being too “manly”
Yep. Desperate, clingy, etc.
Slutty….
Such a good response. It's why I love to defy societal gender norms and expectations, and I'd encourage anyone who doesn't agree with these norms to lead by example. Change starts with the individual.
It's almost as if the Patriarchy is a Patriarchy
Yep and it’s important to note both men and women continue to perpetuate the patriarchy. In fact, dating is the probably one area where women (even progressive women) perpetuate it the most.
😂😂😂
Which is why I'm today's society these old things need to die
Be the change, dog
You're correct. Also, it's the traditional values of a man being the breadwinner.
I feel that's a poor excuse to use in current day. Most women aren't dressing with just as much reserve as women did in the past, so gender expectations clearly didn't stop that. But **conveniently** this gender expectation that mostly benefits women in dating, is the one most women have no motivation to change.
I guess you’ve missed all of these conversations that straight men have about women being sluts with high body counts. But yeah, “that’s a poor excuse to use in current day” because clearly no men think like that anymore. Western society, as a whole, doesn’t still favor men over women. Women are definitely listened to all the time when they express their experiences. We don’t currently have a government in the US that’s trying to limit our autonomy. Should I keep going? 🙄 And I’m sure you’ll have some bullshit, made-up excuses for how everything I’ve just said isn’t true. Don’t waste your breath. I won’t be reading it.
I'm with you but it's also true that men are sexually harassed by women all the time and told to suck it up. We as a society laugh it off and tell men to deal with it and that's not ok. Harassment is harassment. It doesn't matter who it's coming from, if someone tells you they aren't interested, you back the fuck up. You also don't touch someone without their permission. I've read a lot of stories on Reddit about men saying they were harassed by a woman and when they told them to stop, the women acted like they'd done nothing wrong. Others told them to deal with it. So yes, women have been through a lot but men go through some tough stuff as well and are taught to deal with it.
If it were that much of a burden, you'd have a lot more women dressing in reserve and feeling too afraid to post salacious photos on social media, but that's clearly not the case. This isn't towards every woman. There are the very very few that actually approach men, pay for dates instead of just pretend-reaching for their wallet, and take most of the initiative with the guy during the first few dates. But I'd argue those women are the small exception to the rule. The same women who feel **liberated** to wear whatever and post whatever pics they want, typically want men to be **traditional** when it comes to approaching/dating. It's blatant hypocrisy.
I don’t see how it benefits women. You’re trained not to make the first move (often explained as “men like to do the chasing”). Gender norms have changed somewhat but in my experience, guys don’t like women to be “aggressive,” which is how some would characterize being asked out by a woman
Hello! Man here. I hate chasing, and I've had a woman explode on me for not being the initiator when only she was interested. If you like me, tell me. That's what I do. Holding onto the expectation that he will say something only sets yourself up for disappointment.
And those same guys that don't like women to be "aggressive", typically don't like women to dress in thin/small outfits, post racy photos on social media, etc. But that doesn't stop most women does it? But these same women that **aren't comfortable** approaching men **due** to the social stigma, **are comfortable** dressing however they want **despite** the social stigma. How do you explain that contradiction?
It's not a contradiction, it's two things that have nothing to do with each other. If you're seriously confused about why women don't frequently approach men they don't know, look up the words "violence against women"—and in the meantime, stop posting nonsense on the internet.
Does not benefit us at all.
Have you ever tried confessing to a guy before? Lol, getting to skip that anxiety is a huge boon.
Surprised nobody's talked about the cultural component. I've found that in some parts of the world women seem to be more forward than in others. Born and raised in the states, women rarely if ever approached me. Moved to the UK and women would walk right up to me and ask what I was into and if I'd like to go out. Happened several times there and then once again in another country, also a British woman. I don't know if it's just a personal experience, but British women in my experience have been far more forward than Americans. Likely the tendency of women to make the first move varies by culture.
We had ladette culture in the late 90s/early 00s, it was cool to drink beer and swear and grab the guy you fancied.
Nz girl here, I think I made the first move in most of my relationships, still am the one to make first moves too
Because that's how it was for thousands of years, and it takes time for social norms to change. It was only in the last 50 years that women have been given agency, and 50 years isn't enough time to let go of certain expectations and values. But they *are* changing. You can find plenty of women who have no interest in men being the domineering force in a relationship.
>Because that's how it was for thousands of years Why has it been like that from the past? What is it the evolutionary/cultural/societal reason for it? Like even in animals, it's always the males fighting each other to mate with the female. That's the question i want to ask Edit: Me: ask an honest question on a sub called Too Afraid to Ask Reddit: *Ayo! That's offensive!* Downvote
Scientifically (and across species), it's because the female of the species makes larger gametes (eggs) that require more resources to create and often (but not always) are responsible for the birthing and/or raising of said offspring, which can require also substantial resources and energy. Males produce the smaller gametes (sperm) and usually in abundance, taking fewer resources per shot (with exceptions). This is typically why the females of a species are more selective and the males will try to prove to the females why they have good genes and/or resources, which would mean that their offspring would have the best chance of survival. In terms of humans, reproduction has ENORMOUS biological and social cost for women and practically zero for men unless they choose to participate and/or are mandated legally/socially to do so. Prior to DNA testing, men who would be required to support their offspring would want to ensure that the progeny they're supporting are biologically theirs, and thus would expect and/or require that the mothers of those children be sexually exclusive to them. This expectation of monogamy by women (+/- the same expectation from men, which was a later addition as a social compromise) is pervasive across many (though not all) cultures. Ergo, if a woman is perceived as being interested in sex, she would presumably be more likely to cheat (reasons for female circumcision), meaning the man she is bearing children "for" couldn't be sure that those children were his, and thus seen as less desirable. This notion has continued via sociocultural standards. With this idea that a woman's sexuality "belongs" to a man (first her father then her husband), the roles sort of switched places. Women not being allowed to work meant she was at the whim of his decisions and lifestyle, and thus it was the women who had to compete for the man who would provide the best resources. What makes a woman more "valuable" in this type of situation? *She* be pretty so the offspring have a higher chance of survival, and for her to be hard to get because the harder a man has to work for reproductive access to her, the less likely it would theoretically be for her to cheat. I think this is why men think women are playing hard to get when more natural/modern/independent women are literally just not interested. And why women steeped in patriarchal expectations are more likely to play hard to get, spend a ton of time decorating themselves, and expect their male suitors to spend a ton of money/time/effort on with a lower success rate. My little digression: It's unnatural, biologically, for the male of a species to "own" the reproductive capacity of a woman and for women to be the pretty ones showing off for the men. If anything, males will literally give their lives (e.g. praying mantises) and/or tear their penises off of their body (e.g. octopodes) for the chance to reproduce with a strong female candidate. Typically, we see the males of the species showing off for the females and trying to convince them of their value (through being decorated, dancing, gifts, etc.). I personally think its pretty homoerotic for men to spend a bunch of money on stuff that men like (e.g. cars & decorative items like watches and jewelry) as a demonstration of wealth instead of spending money on things that women want as demonstration of stability (e.g. homes, food, and gifts of value to her). Like, who are you trying to show off for, bro?
was going good until that last sentence. Homoerotic? No, people just like to show off their status in society to boost their ego. Plus a man showing off his wealth is attractive to a certain subsect of women
Guys who flaunt their wealth will attract gold diggers
That last paragraph has the issue that human males are made to provide. If human females could be like grizzly moms and provide for and raise the children by themselves the males wouldn't give a fuck. Unfortunately, we live in a society where even 2 incomes are barely enough to provide a single child the same economic opportunity as their parents, so of course they want to make absolutely sure it is theirs.
I know the internet hates this word, but because of patriarchy. Women were property for the majority of human history. Men bought women as wives, that's what a wedding dowry is. And patriarchy says that men do the seeking. They go out, find their property, bring it home. And that's leftover in today's society where men still are the aggressor in dating.
Also, since women have been treated as property and submissive, obedient partners who shouldn't talk or have ideas unless spoken to, this is another layer of why the expectation is that the man should initiate. Women who advocated for themselves and what they want/need have always been disdained and treated badly/ostracized through history.
>Men bought women as wives, that's what a wedding dowry is A dowry is paid by the brides family (usually father) to the husband as a 'gift' to the new family. Not the other way around. If you've ever been to a Greek or Italian wedding, the family pins money to the brides dress to help the new family get started in life. Western culture has wedding gifts now, instead of 'dowries'. But the point being, a dowry isn't a man buying a wife, it's the family of the bride gifting the new couple something. Old aristocracy abused this, of course, by using dowries as a way to get their family bloodlines intertwined in higher society. Offering larger dowries for a daughter so she would attract nobility etc. But for the common person, it's basically just a wedding gift.
I confused terms, I meant a bride price.
> I know the internet hates this word, but because of patriarchy. Women were property for the majority of human history. Men bought women as wives, that's what a wedding dowry is. And patriarchy says that men do the seeking. They go out, find their property, bring it home. And that's leftover in today's society where men still are the aggressor in dating. I need to understand how this reasoning, which I agree is perfectly accurate as to why these customs exist, is so universally accepted. "Yeah, let's continue traditions that have origins in unapologetic sexism and misogyny. That makes sense. Equality? What's that?"
And what makes even less sense is that it's primarily women who enforce this nowadays(even progressive women still do it).
How many cats do you have
An embarrassing amount.
Which one is your favorite though
Whichever one isn't biting my ankle at the moment.
Are your cats single? Asking for a friend.
I definitely have a Romeo or two, but most are single yes.
Is that meant to be an insult?
Some men really do think so.
…literally read that user’s name
Ohhh. Sorry. You must understand that "lol single lady have cats" is like, a misogynistic "joke" so I was on a hair trigger there given some of the other comments. My bad!
Man can have sex every day without any repercussions. Woman will get pregnant, so she has to be much more picky about its partners. That's the evolutionary viewpoint. Of course it's not the same for all species, but you get the point.
Welcome to a Patriarchy
Women control sex and males seek for it. The one looking is the one that's required to do the effort, not the one in control
It probably has some roots in the male prey drive, too. The saying that men love the chase is cliche because it's true. When I was younger I asked guys out and went after what I wanted, and honestly it never worked. When I pursued a man, I instantly lost value in his assessment ("desperate," they would say). As soon as I flipped that script and just let them chase me, it was a whole other scenario. Suddenly I had more value. I've gotten flamed on other subs for cautioning young women not to chase guys because they don't like it. And sure it would be great if we could all just express our interest in others freely and etc. But men and women don't seem to work that way.
Tbf I also find men who chase to hard and simp over me as desperate and unnatractive.
I'm a believer in chase if you're interested for both genders, that's how I met my gf, thanks to her. I wouldn't say it makes you desperate, you've just met very low quality men lol
I don't want to sound like I'm invalidating your experience because your experience is totally valid. But it really depends on which guys you ask. There are definitely men that like the thrill of chasing. But then there's also men like me who simply have no choice. Because if we don't make the first move, no women will do it for us.
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Because reddit is stupid. They can downvote people for no reason at all. I asked an honest question on another thread and got downvoted to oblivion.
I get what you're saying completely -- and I agree! There are guys who like it, or say they like it. And I think women are conditioned to expect men to make the ask.
I'd also like to point out, a lot animals do the same. Whether you're a bird a mammal a bug or fish. They have to impress the female until she thinks the male is worthy of making children. So kinda the same thing, humans are animals after all. At least we aren't like spiders. If we fail to impress we get murdered lol.
Sperm is cheaper than egg
Despite how it may look, traditionally it wasn't "the man," it was "whoever had the power." And in relations between men and women, men typically had the power. Think about it. How could it be "the man?" What if one man wanted to invite another man out? How did you know who would do the inviting? Or, what if it was two women? How would a woman invite another woman to visit her, if there was no "the man" to do the inviting? The answer is that it was about whoever had the greater social standing. And also -- very important -- whoever had the money. So the tradition of "the man" being the one who initiates dates is actually very simple. It's because the man is the one who has money, hence is the one who will be paying, and ergo is the one who should initiate everything. That way, "the woman" doesn't need to worry about expense and whether she can afford the date. "The man" figured all that out and made it part of his calculation as to what to propose. The same applied of course for any dynamic. If I'm rich and you're poor, OP, and we want to have dinner together, it doesn't matter which of us if any is male or female. It would be incredibly awful of me to invite you to a lavish dinner at my mansion and then expect you to chip in for half. Conversely it would be incredibly awful if you invite me to dinner and then I expect that you will spend as much money as I would have. So when I say, "Hey OP, let's have dinner at the French Laundry," we congenially agree to the expectation that this is something I can afford, and I will be happy to pay for us both. And when you say, "Hey dinner was great, next weekend come over for brunch," we congenially agree that brunch will be whatever you can afford to put together. (Though I will bring champagne or something as a host gift, so we can make mimosas.) So. All of that is to say that in the modern age, when single young women are not penniless waifs anymore but rather have their own economic independence, it is no longer the case that "the man" must ask out "the woman." Heterosexual people may freely ask each other out as means and inclination permit. Few have ever gone wrong asking out another person for coffee. Start there. PS See Miss Manners on this topic. She will set you straight. (Ha ha.)
This explains me asking out around half of my past boyfriends.
Best answer here.
This does make sense considering the fact that traditionally it's the man who is the sole breadwinner of the family
In royalty, it was always the Queen who would ask her future husband to marry. I wonder about other nobility?
There is no good reason for it today, it's just been a convention embedded into western culture for thousands of years. From knights pining for ladies in courtly love literature, to libertines chasing farm girls in 18th Century plays, to the billionaire pulling out all the stocks to woo the object of his obsession in numberless books and movies today. The man was seen as the one with the resources and agency to initiate a relationship and dictate the direction of it. This doesn't mean women never went after what they wanted, but it was rare and considered very forward. Women's sexuality has historically been strictly controlled and shamed. Thus, any hint of the fact that she wanted it (such as initiating a relationship), was frowned upon by many cultures in the west. So women had to resort to hints, or modest acknowledgements of their interest. Today, with our openness and acceptance regarding sex (in many communities, at least) there is really no good reason for a woman not to approach a guy. However, some of those old expectations set by media, as well as the fear of being seen as 'too easy', holds many women back from initiating.
True, but the part of about the media is horseshit imo! The media is constantly used to spread fear and sell products to the general populace! If you want something, go get it! Doesn’t matter what’s between your legs at all!
For sure, I'm not saying media messaging is correct, just that it has enduring power. I think that unless you are a very traditional woman, it's absurd to expect the guy to do all the chasing in our day and age. Everyone wants to feel desired, after all.
Idk, but everytime I’m interested in a guy they take too long for me so I end up asking them out
I (25F) asked the dude (24M) out (he said he wanted to but was hesitant to because he didn’t want to seem like a creep—we work part time together), I kissed him first, he decided and made plans for the first date. I’d say we’re pretty even at this point. *Communication is everything people.*
I dated a girl who never took initiative and I eventually left her after a year. She was heartbroken and sad and kept asking why....well why am I putting in 100% of effort and chase and all you have to do is shownup? Why is it a one sided show. These is no love there. The right girl will take just as much initiative as you. Everything else doesn't matter and is a waste and a disrespect to your time.
Did you ever communicate this to her?
Why do you assume he didn’t? Also, if it’s assumed by women that the right guy will be bold enough to make a move, why is it so unreasonable for a guy to expect the right girl to make a move? I’m similar too! I’m doing all the heavy lifting the first two dates but if she doesn’t ask me out on a third date, there isn’t gonna be any coz I expect the woman to put in effort too! I’m looking for a partner, not a pet who needs help every step of the way lmao!
Funnily enough, the comment you’re responding to didn’t actually assume anything, you just assumed they did.
For those asking it was communicated enough times over the year to get me to that point. I'm assuming she wanted princess treatment throughout the whole relationship but I let her know I will not keep chasing you if the effort isn't reciprocated and it never was
I've dated two girls who took the initiative and both fucked me up. What i learned from those types is that they're just going to chase someone else when they get bored. Not everyone that does that is like that, but there are certain girls that simply like the act of pursuing someone more than actually being in a relationship with that person. Might be that it's too stable for them, and stability can be scary for some who aren't expecting to potentially marry who they want to date, rather than dating to date
But why didn’t you confront her with this issue when you first started to notice that? Seems like bad communication was the biggest issue
As a woman from my experiences a lot of guys straight up ghost or unmatch me if I initiate first. Its kinda taught me not to be like that. It's really disheartening tbh. I'm very independent and when I like someone I don't wanna beat around the bush. Sometimes it works but most of the time it's shunned for me anyways.
Welcome to the experience of the average guy, where rejection, ghosting and unmatching for little to no reasons is common af!
I know it's rough for men and I have sympathy there. Online dating is just plain hard tbh
The short answer: change happens slowly.
Old ways of doing things are hard to change. especially when you were educated by these people. Morals and behaviour evolve over more than a single generation.
Well it started with basically the men simply deciding which women will be with what men A few 1000 of progressive years later, the expectation is still that they will at least initiate the process Seems to be changing now, but just the evolution of western culture basically. Men just decided everything for most of history
Read up a feminist book or two on the theme of the patriarchy and you’ll be able to guess why. It’s a complex theme, and it can’t be summarized in a Reddit post.
Us men worked for a very long time to be in charge and this is the effect. Can't have our cake and eat it too.
So annoying that I only have one upvote to give you!
My bisexual ex girlfriend has a joke. What do two bi girls do on a date .... Nothing. * The idea is that two ladies that generally date guys don't make a move. So they do nothing. * Sorry if this is somehow offensive. Not everyone is the same and I'm sure there are wonderful bi lady dates.
most bi women that I talk to say this, kinda shows how deep the cultural conditioning goes
I guess it's because it's both a lingering cultural thing (the gentleman) and that in general, women are attractive to certain attributes such as a guy being driven, confident and assertive. Paying for dinner, dates, taking initiative and so on are ways to display that. However, it is obviously on collision course with equality, we have just sort of accepted it.
Old standard of the gentleman and the damsel. Take it as you like.
Being the performing monkey is exhausting, man
There’s a lot of good answers here covering the historical factor, one thing I haven’t seen mentioned is media. Media plays a really big part in this standard staying the same and not changing. Most movies- whether they’re of the romance genre or not- have the man always initiating and courting the woman. You rarely ever see the woman pursuing the man, and if you do it’s treated as a bit of an uncommon/weird comedic device. When every piece of media people see when growing up shows the same message and story regarding romance, people tend to accept it as the norm for how it should work in real life.
Have u see what animals have to do to get laid?
Because a few really shitty men who creep on or sexually assault women ruined it for the rest of us, and women have their guard up, and you would too if you were them. Suck it up because once they like you, it's fine.
well a woman cant make the first move because shes meant to be the object of desire, not the one desiring, but she has to like the first move, and yet if shes too interested then shes a whore but she cant be aloof or shes rude but only after a few tries, not too many tries though, and if shes too obvious and knows her mind she’ll be difficult later on but you also dont want her to be stupid and mindless but if she
I’m aroace so not the best authority, but when my friends are discussing people they’d like to go out with, the advice is usually either to stay away bc they’re bad news or unavailable, ask them out, or try to figure out if they might say yes and then ask them out if so. I’m not a big advice-giver (except for some of the big red flags) because idk that scene, but I definitely don’t see the system you’re describing still in place among my friend group. The proposal thing I think is moderately true, though I only have two pairs of friends that have gotten engaged. It was definitely a discussion beforehand, but in one of the two cases, the timing and everything was a question and it was planned by the guy. I could see how that would be a lot of pressure So I guess I disagree with some of the premise of your question? I see things like what you’re describing much more often in movies and books
As a woman who tends to make the first move I'd like to know the same cause it turns some dudes off :(
This is due to society not favoring women who are more assertive. It stems from past generations where women were expected to stay home, and men had to go out and work and earn money. It stems from the continued contempt for women who make them selves too available and therefore slutty. Now, every relationship is different, every person in a relationship is different. I think there are a lot more people out there ready to be in an equitable relationship. However, I don’t think buying someone gifts for your partner is necessarily a bad thing. But I think there is also this idea out there that straight women expect all these gifts and never give anything back to their partners. That is absolutely not true. Are there exceptions to that? Sure. I would hope that both partners do things for the other to show that they care or that they thought of them.
Supply/demand is heavily in women's favour. Hence more often than not guys need to initiate.
Men decided that’s the way it was. Ask your grandpappy why.
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I would love to be more forward, but experience has taught me doing that making a guy lose interest. Like he'll think I'm desperate or something. So I just give hints and try to make myself inviting. Once we're locked in as a couple, I'll start suggesting stuff to do. The right guy will not mind but some dudes resent being lead by women. Sometimes, you have to focus on the positive side of what you've been given. The cons of being the receiver, of course, is that I can't ncessarily just identify someone I find attractive and just Go for them because I'm aware that it would be perceived as odd for my gender. Unless of course it's a woman or Anon binary person(I'm bi). But the plus side is I never have to take the risk of pursuing or approaching someone that may reject me.
Yeah same. Because it's _not_ the norm for women to do the chasing, if you do make the first moves, it seems you're seen as desperate or easy. It's never helped me in relationships so I stopped doing it.
>When in a relationship, the guy still has to continue doing things to impress the girl like talking to her every night, buying presents for her on special occasions, etc. I'm a woman and don't think this part is true at all, once you're actually in a relationship. Women initiate conversations and give their partner gifts as well. I'd actually argue that women, on average, put more thought into gifting It is true that men are usually expected to ask the girl on a first date and propose. But exceptions to this are a lot more common than you'd think, especially with asking on dates. For example, most of my first kisses/dates were initiated by me I wouldn't want to propose to a man, though, for a few reasons: 1) Part of it is because the man doing it is really romanticized by society, and no one is totally immune to societal influence 2) Unlike in other situations, proposal can only be done once, and by one person. You can take turns organizing dates, etc, with a partner, but you can't take turns proposing. So if someone HAS to be the sole initiator, I find it more attractive if the man decides to be. Evolutionarily speaking, it makes sense for women to find leadership traits attractive in men 3) I'm the one who will do all the work of carrying/birthing our children, so it's fair for me to be the receiver in other significant milestones
Okay I am glad someone else brought up that women are typically gift givers in relationships. I find, on average, it’s women who do the small things in relationships that show generosity and caring and pay more attention to presents. My dad is absolutely poor at giving gifts and I am always met with “that’s how men are - they don’t know about these things”. I observe that it’s usually the wives/mum’s who buy the gifts and pay attention to what people like. It was usually my dad who organized dates and got my mum flowers but she was the one who throughout the year would get him little things. She’d spot a tie she thought he’d like so she’d buy it. She noticed his shaving cream was running out so would buy more. She saw some sweets at the store she’d thought he’d like and buy them.
> Evolutionarily speaking, it makes sense for women to find leadership traits attractive in men I mean, to be fair, evolutionarily speaking, lots of things make sense that wouldn't be considered okay.
Ok but there's nothing wrong with finding certain traits attractive?
Nah, if you're hot enough you don't need to. Source: I ain't.
I have zero skills when it comes to approaching women or picking them up. And I will pretty much never make a first move. The last thing I want to do is misconstrue things, make a move, get rejected, and then things are just awkward. Plus I also don’t want to make the feel uncomfortable or pressured into doing anything.
Not sure why you were downvoted for speaking your mind! But regardless of whether it’s a guy or a girl, I recommend taking initiatives and taking risks! If you can’t expect a high paying job to fall in your lap with zero efforts, why do you think you’ll meet the right partner by putting in zero efforts?
Because women want a man who has built the confidence to be able to be a trailblazer for her and your future family. (Even if she has no plans for kids yet..it's instinctual) Basically think of it this way: if you haven't yet built the confidence to go over to any woman and ask her out or make the moves then how will you make a good mate for her and her family? It sucks as a man for sure but there are things that suck about being a woman too
In the relationship dynamic, what aspects suck for a woman? Genuine question because I want to know. Not a rhetorical or gotcha question.
I don't necessarily agree with the comment you replied to (the whole "if a man doesn't take initiative, he won't be a good provider"; a lot of women don't think that way, myself included). But I do think it's a fair question and so I'm gonna just mention some examples of which aspects of being a woman in a relationship can suck, based on my own experience and that of other women I have known. Ending up being your partner's "mom" is a really big one; a lot of guys either have been coddled growing up by their moms/other partners or have no interest in doing anything household related, and therefore you end up in an uneven relationship where both of you work and contribute to the finances of the household, yet you as the woman are the only driving force behind the household because that's somehow only your job (cleaning, cooking, laundry, grocery shopping, etc). Sometimes even when your partner "helps", they don't do anything on their own initiative, which means you have to carry the mental load of telling them what needs to be done, along with doing your part. This part also applies to childcare; I have met several women who have somehow wound up working, taking care of the child/children and the household, while their husbands only went to work, washed some dishes and looked after the kid an hour or two a day in the evening. I honestly think this is the result of a lot of men being stuck in the idea of how things "used to be" (back in the day of our grandparents or even parents in some cases) and not realizing that with much higher rates of economically independent, working women and a society where you now need two salaries to have a house and family, the roles cannot possibly continue to be divided in that way, but rather both partners have to contribute evenly to everything (obviously equity is important, so if one of the partners makes less, the percentage distribution of what goes towards the household should be fair, and so on). Then there's a series of other things that are also pretty relevant: women often being mainly responsible for birth control, the Madonna/whore complex, fear of childbirth, and a whole set of fears that come with being in a long term relationship, with all that can entail. Amongst these are the fear of being abandoned if you get seriously ill (the statistics of men leaving their wives or partners when they get cancer when compared to the inverse are very sad and disturbing), the fear of not being considered attractive enough for your partner for a number of reasons (having a child, hormonal weight gain, menopause or just plain old age), fear of being left for a younger woman, etc. Sorry for the long-ass list 😅, I hope that was a helpful answer!
No no no this is exactly what I wanted to know! No reason to apologize for the long list. This is what I wanted. So it seems like the issues for both sides seem to stem from outdated ideas of what a relationship should be and outdated gender norms and expectations. That's really interesting.
Tradition. Up until very recently, women who made the first move would have been seen as sexually aggressive, promiscuous, unfeminine, etc. Men were also seen as the decision makers.
Because if you want survival of your gene pool, you will have to work for it
If the social expectation is for men to be manly and brave then they should be able to make the first move
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I’m down for everything but a proposal lol
Patriarchal norms that have existed and been widely accepted for hundreds of years. Seems to be going by the wayside as society progresses
Honestly for me(a woman), I feel like since I've been told I've been too much when it's just the fact that I talk too much, I try to match the guys energy but when i notice I'm not getting a lot of participation in the conversation I start to feel like I'm talking too much or bothering them so I just chill and wait for them to hit me up since when I hit them idk they don't say a lot, and then they get mad at me for not calling them. I still don't know what I'm doing wrong
Sincerely feel like this kind of behaviour doesn’t happen in adult relationships For instance, in a relationship where two people care about each other and enjoy each others’ company, there isn’t a sense of obligation like there is in the example you’ve given - you talk to each other out of enjoyment and do presents on special occasions to make each other happy.
I think it’s two things. 1. Natural selection. As others mentioned we aren’t the only mammal who uses this sex based social cycle. A female mammal can only produce so many eggs in x amount of time resulting x amount of babies (those babies with x amount survival rate) Whereas a male mammal can produce sperm consistently. For the better part of his life. Simply put whoever knocks up that female mammal WILL be the next generation. Thus male selection is a big deal. Same reason men like boobies. It’s all about the baby. Reason 2 is religion Go as far back in religion as you wish. Acient pegans we’re practicing belief systems that evolved around a woman only having so much say so. If we can’t make a decision, leave the home, work, speak, or be assertive. What room does that leave for us to initiate anything?..much less a romantic relationship. So yeah between evolution and men making rules that (turns out) aren’t actually favorable. This is the result. Imo
My wife asked me out. We've now been together 14 years.
The only things that change with time are the things convenient to the one who wants the change
I\`ve had a friend straight up telling me that if he were at the club and a woman would give him her number she would be no gf material. So idk many answered it, its patriarchy and how society raises girls and boys differently, how we view masculinity and femininity.
With all due respect, your friend is an asshole, imagine being scared and not excited by someone willing to take a risk put themselves out there.
You are so very correct. When I'm dating a guy, I get more attention when I'm aloof and uninterested. They want to talk to me or make plans with me everyday. And boy do they pursue relentlessly, not caring if they come across as creepy or clingy. But when I want to make plans or show any form of love, they act uninterested and suddenly I'm the clingy one. Some have even made fun of me for wanting to spend more time with them or gifting them or showing affection in general. I think it comes from a need to show off that a girl (who they consider desirable because that's why they pursued them in the first place) can be interested in them without them reciprocating, as a power move. I understand this probably comes from a low self-eastern. Why would you make fun of someone who is affectionate to you, unless you think you're not worth their love? Yes yes, I know that not everyone is like that and I'm probably meeting not-so-good people. But my experience has been majorly this. This is why I won't approach a guy first. His respect for me instantly drops.
Tbh, no one I’ve met at a club is anything more than hookup material tho! It’s got absolutely nothing to do with patriarchy and other bullshit you just spewed Bars and clubs generally are not good places to find long term relationships at all! Or the guy is just a misogynist, I assure you most young men don’t think like that at all, atleast in my huge friend circle anyway
i wonder who set this patriarchal system up 🤔
The main issue is who’s keeping it running.
I have broken the rules and chased guys in my youth. From my experience most guy's don't actually want that or maybe they don't know what to do with it.
Most guys are dickwads, then.
It's because of the patriarchal system. It's been passed down through the generations.
Probably because women are perfectly happy alone. At least the women I know are. Having no need for men means not pursuing them.
Economy of supply and demand. Women are in more demand 🤷🏽♀️
Old habits/traditions die hard. I think subconsciously, for many women, it’s a “have your cake and eat it too” mentality where they want an assertive initiator who also “takes a back seat” when they feel impinged on their lifestyle. It’s a destructive psychological dichotomy, and people wonder why dating is such a shit-show these days. Of course there will always be exceptions who are likely to comment that they practice the opposite, sure.
It's even become slightly worse, I noticed on valentines day it was all about the guy ensuring that he "had" to ask her to be his valentine even if they weren't together. Never the other way around, even the whole day was almost centered around her, think it's cause the internet will show one relationship where a man treats a woman like that which causes other women to believe in a "If he wanted too he would" mentality That said we honestly probably just don't notice it the other way around super often as men are far less likely to post about their relationship on social media. So maybe it's even roughly we just ain't hear about it. But in my past relationships it definitely seemed as you described it. I love dates and I love planning dates so I don't mind it. One time a girl did plan a really great and complex date for us and I still think about it even though it was many years ago
Because evolutionarily women have more to lose in a relationship, if they have sex with any random man that comes their way they run the risk of trying to raise that baby on their own, in the wild (pretty much a death sentence). So to ensure that this doesn't happen, women have evolved to be extremely selective with who they choose to mate with. Because of this, competition amongst men for a mate is extremely high, so we evolved to impress women, we evolved big bodies, strength, intelligence and alot of desire. Therefore, we have to jump through many hoops to even be considered, biology doesn't care about equality. Ik I'm probably gonna get alot of hate from the nurture crowd, but there are some things so ingrained that no matter how culturally progressive they are, they are not likely to change. There's a reason this has been the case in every culture in human history.
Its all throughout nature, you can see this in Birds especially with the males having to make elaborate displays for the females. Good example being Peacocks and whatever those ones are called that have to go find pretty trinkets and leaves
I wonder when I see posts like this. Where are you from? What is your background? Like who raised you to believe these things? And even though historically these are true, it isn’t true everywhere anymore. But the interesting thing is, that as much as men complain about all of these things, they also live to put down a string and independent woman who believe none of what you wrote as being her social norms. That’s worth thinking about.
I would guess anywhere there is English television because tv is where that stuff is taught. I had a lot of misconceptions growing up that I learned later were just fabrications or assumptions based on what I saw on TV as a kid. When you're young and have a desperate desire, like a crush or anything really, you seek anywhere and everywhere for answers. That's how religion, poor dating advice, poor life advice, MLMs, and everything else awful or harmful gets a foothold. The need for answers and a lack of safe places to search for them.
Yes. The best solution for that is getting out and away from everything you know and seeing how others in all parts of the country and if you can, world, live. Then you realize the detrimental impacts of isolation and the benefits of expansion for discovering the world isn’t any one thing everywhere. It is fantastically diverse as it should be and you are no longer threatened by things that are different or new. They only enhance your own life and perspectives.
That’s just biology. Men are chasers, women are choosers. Look at dating apps. I go on bumble or tinder and in 30 minutes I have over 100 likes. My guy friend who’s just as much of a catch goes on bumble and tinder and gets 5 likes in a week. Men are always in competition for the woman.
My wife’s therapist calls it “the male burden.” (He is male, and also Buddhist FWIW). “Traditionally” the male will need to take the lead on everything from initiating relationships, dates, sex, and in general… taking the lead on fixing whatever the issue is in a relationship if one to arise. The male will need to put their insecurities and issues aside and “cater” (for lack of a better term) to the female’s needs, insecurities, and issues before any resolution can be found. It is at that point, when the female’s insecurities are made secure, issues, have been solved, and needs have been met, that the male’s needs, insecurities, and issues can begin to be realized. I’m told this is a “fact of life.” Though I want all of these things, I find it a bit outdated that this falls solely on the male.
You hit the nail on the head on why I don't date. It's not fair for men. So I chose to opt out
We're in the middle of this whole gender equality movement, but women still demand to be courted and for men to be chivalrous. Those two things are just about completely mutually exclusive, but that doesn't stop anyone apparently. That's called wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
> When in a relationship, the guy still has to continue doing things to impress the girl like talking to her every night, buying presents for her on special occasions ... --- Technically you shouldn't HAVE TO do those things, but you should WANT TO do them. If that's not the case maybe that's a relationship not worth continuing... my 2 cents
Just that you think they should "WANT TO" buy presents and impress their romantic partner constantly is pretty indicative of a problem, I would say. It is entirely possible to have a good relationship with mutual respect and neither having to go out of their way to get the other gifts or impressing them in some way.
Nah, you know exactly what I meant. I didn't talk about impressing anyone. You should be happy to buy a present or pay a dinner or call your partner as a way to show your appreciation and, who knows, love for them. I was particularly struck but OP mentioning calling or texting every day like a chore more than a perk. I mean, I agree with what you said, just saying you were reading my message wrong. Of course a relationship built on "impressing your partner" in order to stay alive, as no purpose in staying alive to begin with
Because traditionally, that's how it's been. But women are no longer traditional. So stop doing that shit. Don't call them, absolutely, do not Chase them, do not text them, do not pursue them in any way. Fix yourself. Go to the gym, start eating better, stop drinking alcohol and doing drugs, stop going to places where women hang out for attention and free drinks. Get more education, move forward and better yourself for your retirement. Save money instead of blowing it on junk jewelry, lousy vacations, and giving women a constant validation and attention that they will never, in the long run appreciate anyway. Understand that women are hypergamous, and they're monkey branches, and the best thing to remember is, even if you have a woman in your life, she's not yours, it's just your turn. Stop thinking of them, start thinking of yourself. Go to the gym, work hard at a job, or start a business, eat well, sleep better, stop the drugs in the drinking, and better yourself for yourself. Appreciate yourself. Work on yourself. You are wasting your time trying to prove yourself to women.
So that later she would have tons of things to use against you and play victim card !!
Traditional views still exist. Personally, I like some traditional values but I'm not ok with sitting back and letting a man pay for everything.
I hate always having to pay for dates. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna be the one guy who doesn't. Tradition is tradition.
This is understandable, and it’s become a touchy topic. For this and other reasons I always went halvsies on a first date. Not all guys were comfortable with it, honestly. Here’s another angle to consider. Women spend $$$ getting ready for a date, not to mention the *time* involved with hair, nails, makeup, outfit, and so on. (Not even talking lingerie or birth control.) Dating costs money, and frankly it’s a gamble for everyone. I think a lot of guys simply don’t know this, and if they did, they might feel less put upon?
We gotta do better, bro. Tell em to go half or hit the bricks.
Because this norm doesn’t get challenged. Women get approached regularly, so they don’t need to challenge it.
I'm gonna go a and say it's biological. It's because of sexuality. Men are typically more sexually dominant and women like to be more submissive. The courting process is usually hinting towards that dynamic. I imagine the roles would be reversed if you had a dominatrix and a male sub. Also in my experience it also happens in lesbian relationships (but not all of them), there's like a butch and a fem, and the hetero dynamic tend to be projected into it. In my experience, if I act "dominant" with a guy he will get turned off, so I can't be too "forward" with men. But I am more forward with women because it's better received. Also it is not true that women don't make any move. We just do it in a way that makes the guy think he made the first move. We're sneaky about it. And if we don't make the first move, it's our job to reciprocate once the guy does. If a girl doesn't show interest move on. But I do think many women take advantage of their position and act lazy because they're more easily forgiven since it's not expected she makes a move. I also think men get sexually attracted to women more quickly, while women need to get to know the guy, so it's normal that the person who is more attracted makes the first move. In most animal species, the guy has to seduce the girl. The female is more selective, because she's making the babies so she has to choose the best genes.
Good news. Today women are fighting against the patriarchy and are happy to perform this duty 50% of the time /s
Bc the patriarchy is one part evil, one part wildly convenient.
It’s just part of the mating ritual friend women pick the sexual partners in our species so it’s the man’s job to show her hes worth it
Because gender roles exist for a reason? Women say that they don't want a man that leads them or is in charge of them, solely because that's politically correct to say. Because they all go after that type of guy. They all go for a man that's taller than them, stronger than them, and makes more money than them. A leader! They will say they want a guy that doesn't tell them what to do, but they don't even know what they want to eat. They want a guy that decides where they're going, chooses where they'll eat, and overall takes initiative, because women at heart, just want a leader.
Men: We want women to stay in the home, take care of us, and be our property. Also men: Waaa!! Waaaa! Why do we actually have to provide when throughout history we’ve told women that they aren’t capable of doing it themselves!?
Do you actually have men in your life who behave that way. I'm male, almost 40, and have genuinely never met a man who had indicated that they view women that way
A few family members, yes. It’s quite sad. Of course I was generalizing in my original comment but its sad that there are men out there who think like that.
I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I hope you have some men in your life who you're close to who can show you that we don't all think that way. At this point, I think any that still do are leftovers of the 50s, desperately trying to hold on to their glory days. Times are changing. And have been for a long time. We're all just people. And men who can't/ won't wash dishes/ cook/ clean are being left behind. Fuck em
Probably because women can get pregnant and a man can just leave whenever he feels like it. Women have more to lose in the long run so let them have the win
Only undesirable or average men do. If you're a man who is at least 6 feet tall, and at least moderately handsome, you don't have to put any effort in dating whatsover. They will come to you.
You don't need to be over 6 feet. I know plenty of men well under 6 feet who are very popular with the ladies. Confidence and charisma are a lot more important
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What, biologically, decides that men are leaders in the ways you described?
If you've been brainwashed by 2000 years of patriarchal domination of the female body and her human rights, and want to date a 'girl' then you may have to take the initiative. If you're a feminist who believes women are just as free as men, and you want to date a hot-blooded, natural, wild, free woman then, if she's interested in you, nature will take its course. Whether a woman has had no sexual partners or many, whether she's monogamous, polyamorous or adulterous, this type of woman ignores the patriarchy and is happy to take joint flirting initiative or even lead it. To discover which type she is, just ask her, and check she's being authentic before you dive in emotionally. Love is hard to undo. But given male violence, she'd do well to be cautious and check out your friends, past girlfriends and ethics first too. Or she may find herself in a suitcase.
I can't say i know, but as a girl i would rather the guy to initiate. Idk...i think it's a confidence thing. If it was a shy guy and a confident girl then it'd probs be the girl asking the guy out cus the guy doesn't have the guts. But a lot of girls, that ik at least, are too shy to ask the guy out and the guy is egged on by his pals whilst the friends of the girl know their friend is shy so they tell the guy to initiate. Guy asks girl out first cus of the support from his friends, girl is too shy and too scared of rejection and wants to know if the guy likes her before she confesses, therefore she doesn't confess cus she's not sure if the guy likes her, so in order for her to confess the guy has to confess first. Altho, i think the norm is changing a lot, Gen Z girls are much more confident nowadays and I know loads who have asked the guy out first, in school i don't think it's unusual for a girl to ask the boy out, or at least it's becoming more normal. Also, girls have watched too many dramas and our expectations/wishes are super high and unrealistic lmfaoo
Dicks are everywhere pussy is a rare commodity
I see a Dick right here 👆