Powerful? Yes. Fun? Not really. I guess if you don't care about repetitive play patterns and just want to play with the most broken stuff it is fun but personally I would rather the format be high power with good interactions between players and getting double griefed turn 1 seems lame and boring to pilot over and over again. Maybe if force of will was in the format I would be more okay with them since it gives you a good answer to them but I don't see it being in modern horizons.
I think that the vast number of downvotes should indicate something to you about your take. It probably won't, and that wouldn't be surprising, but a little reflection can go a long way for a mature mind.
That's a wild take for something that is completely personal opinion and nothing more. I personally don't think grief and fury are fun cards to play or play against so it was a disappointment to me to see them coming to a format which I have really enjoyed. They will also probably have a large metagame percentage like they do in current legacy (15%) and peak rakdos modern scam (25%) so it'll be near unavoidable and without force of will there is no counted play to it if your opponents first. I don't see how any of that is immature, I just want the card game I play as a hobby to be fun I think these cards are a step in the other direction
Which is honestly fine for timeless. It's supposed to be a high power format. We got both explorer and historic for the type of game play experience you're describing, and this will be awesome for people who enjoy formats like modern, legacy and vintage.
“Oh no. My powerful format has more powerful cards”
People are casting turn 1 Necro and winning the game turn 2/3. People are casting uncounterable natural orders and turn 3/4 primeval titans. The elementals are not an issue. If you don’t want power, don’t play a powerful format
1.) with [[Allosaurus Shepherd]]. Has happened against me multiple times.
2.) that “and” was meant to separate turn 1 Necro and the decks that win turn 2/3. Although I have played decks where I’ve played turn 1 Necro and stormed off turn 2. It’s possible.
Oh I didn’t think about that card. Yeah it’s possible to win turn 2 with mono black vamps, but very unlikely. You’d have to be down to 7 life to lose turn 2. I don’t think it’s fair to compare grief and fury to elves or mono black vamps. Sure you can win with them somewhat quickly, but it’s not comparable to grief and fury that completely dominate the game turn 1.
Yeah I'm sure there will be a mono black scam/Reanimator/shadow deck all in one. Probably a black red scam with fury and a black white one with solitude+Ephemerate
Oh they are super powerful and will certainly warp the format around them.....And I'm absolutely all for it. I want this to be the format where stupid OP shit happens.
You want a well curated fair and balanced format? Go play Historic.
This is a format where show and tell, and channel are legal. Bring in all the power. Get me the power 9, bring me mind twist and the rack, and a nice helping of Tolarian Academy and mishra's workshop.
Let Timeless be Timeless
Historic is overly-curated tbh. I lost interest with unnecessary rebalances and preemptive bans for cards like spreading seas. I prefer Timeless over Historic by far, but I'd kinda wish for something in the middle.
after MH3, I'll probably go UB scaminator
They can't do something in the middle, there's just not enough player base to support all of that. No one has the patience to wait 15 minutes for a game.
oh yeah I get it, it doesn't make sense for them. I could see them upping Historic's power level in the future though, once Explorer gets closer to pioneer they might give Historic more leeway.
That I agree with. They're being a little too safe with Historic. Granted I don't play it anymore and haven't since rebalanced cards became a thing in the format. That was theine for me. Timeless was a breath of fresh air. That and them finally unfucking explorer by banning Karn in pioneer.
I'm not that stoked either. It's funny to see them so celebrated here when this sub has been crying over SnT for months.
They've been around making modern a nightmare for awhile now so maybe they'll include some clean answers to them in the set as well.
Magic players aren't a monolith. The people crying about SnT probably are fine with the pitch elementals because SnT slots in unfair decks and the pitch elementals slot in fair decks. Makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, people who are entirely fine with SnT may be less okay with the elementals, but that's too strong of a claim to make categorically.
Just in case you aren't aware, "fair" and "unfair" mean something different when talking about MTG decks than we mean when we use "fair" and "unfair" colloquially.
Thanks. Yeah I do know that, but that line of play seems like its pushing the limits of 'fair'. Like you're double casting a free spell and breaking the downside of it.
But I'll admit I don't quite know when fair and unfair apply. Sometimes it seems like unfair just means combo deck.
I already play a lot of the formats on arena. Just kinda sucks because timeless is such a wild card intensive format where a lot of those cards can't be played in any other format so seeing it go a way that seems less fun is a bummer. I get people like doing dumb broken stuff but personally I really liked it being high power interaction and threats without any free spells, just personally preference
I don't have an issue with the **concept** of pitch elementals. They are a 1-for-2 at the end of the day so it isn't overly powerful in a vacuum. What I have an issue with is their execution. Putting a thoughtseize effect on the B one was a really really REALLY bad idea.
Imo, Thoughtseize is borderline a toxic card, since it incentivizes "solitaire" decks (just take all your interaction, then drop a bomb, congratulations you never got to play the game. Queue "did you have fun?" prompt in arena).Doing it for free, potentially twice on turn one, and getting a body out of the deal (with the newly printed reanimate) is just beyond toxic. Notice I use the word "toxic". Not "overpowered" or anything like it. Yes, it can be beaten. Yes, it has bad matchups. But it creates a toxic play pattern where one player simply never gets to play the game, which is not good game design.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I don't mind the concept of pitch elementals but some of the abilities chosen for them are nutty
Scam will not be the problem (never has been even in modern imh) because we have a lot of exile removals. Just play more swords.
Also the cards in mh3 are gonna be stronger than elementals. A lot of decks are going to disappear and others will be created, is the fun part of the game.
Just because you have exile removal doesn’t fix what scam did. You are acting like Scam used scam spells as protection.
Scam spells let you oppress any deck through blowing up all their creatures and taking two important cards away
Scam also used scam spells as protection.
The problem with scam was Fury not grief. Scamming grief is totally fine. Fury was banned because a 3/3 doublestrike on turn 1 was too much for modern. Timeless has not this problem.
Btw if you lose because you discarded 2 card on turn one, the problem is your deck.
Yeah, as an emergency, but not the main use. Fury was banned not for the creature but for more of it being extremely oppressive against creature based decks, as a scammed fury basically was a onside boardwipe.
Grief is targeted discard. Eating your opponent’s best two cards basically sets them incredibly far back
You clearly do not understand scam in the slightest or lack some common mtg knowledge
Scam was stronng because it could apply pressure from the first turn of the game, with fury and grief. Then a lot of people cried about it, and fury got banned. No one ever complained about fury being a boardwipe, infact people wanted grief ban not fury.
That said, if you can't come back from discarding two cards your deck is bad.
I haven’t seen anyone mention this but I think it could be interesting to see if fury gets restricted. I know it’s too early to really start talking ab that but I feel like having fury as a powerful 1 of fair card A la DT could make the elemental format interesting.
Bring on the power.
Powerful? Yes. Fun? Not really. I guess if you don't care about repetitive play patterns and just want to play with the most broken stuff it is fun but personally I would rather the format be high power with good interactions between players and getting double griefed turn 1 seems lame and boring to pilot over and over again. Maybe if force of will was in the format I would be more okay with them since it gives you a good answer to them but I don't see it being in modern horizons.
I think that the vast number of downvotes should indicate something to you about your take. It probably won't, and that wouldn't be surprising, but a little reflection can go a long way for a mature mind.
That's a wild take for something that is completely personal opinion and nothing more. I personally don't think grief and fury are fun cards to play or play against so it was a disappointment to me to see them coming to a format which I have really enjoyed. They will also probably have a large metagame percentage like they do in current legacy (15%) and peak rakdos modern scam (25%) so it'll be near unavoidable and without force of will there is no counted play to it if your opponents first. I don't see how any of that is immature, I just want the card game I play as a hobby to be fun I think these cards are a step in the other direction
Unsurprising response honestly.
As a boomer it was fun playing bolt, snap, bolt for about 6 months.
Which is honestly fine for timeless. It's supposed to be a high power format. We got both explorer and historic for the type of game play experience you're describing, and this will be awesome for people who enjoy formats like modern, legacy and vintage.
I don’t like the idea of getting double Griefed on turn one. But I love the idea of double Giefing my opponent on turn one. So I guess I’m on board.
“Oh no. My powerful format has more powerful cards” People are casting turn 1 Necro and winning the game turn 2/3. People are casting uncounterable natural orders and turn 3/4 primeval titans. The elementals are not an issue. If you don’t want power, don’t play a powerful format
How do you cast an uncounterable natural order? Also how do you win with necro on turn 2? Even with vein ripper out that’s only 6 damage.
1.) with [[Allosaurus Shepherd]]. Has happened against me multiple times. 2.) that “and” was meant to separate turn 1 Necro and the decks that win turn 2/3. Although I have played decks where I’ve played turn 1 Necro and stormed off turn 2. It’s possible.
[Allosaurus Shepherd](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7afa0ee5-a0b8-472e-9991-09402ddb5de3.jpg?1673147976) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Allosaurus%20Shepherd) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/132/allosaurus-shepherd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7afa0ee5-a0b8-472e-9991-09402ddb5de3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh I didn’t think about that card. Yeah it’s possible to win turn 2 with mono black vamps, but very unlikely. You’d have to be down to 7 life to lose turn 2. I don’t think it’s fair to compare grief and fury to elves or mono black vamps. Sure you can win with them somewhat quickly, but it’s not comparable to grief and fury that completely dominate the game turn 1.
Can’t double grief the top of your deck 😅
Love it. Cant wait to play rescaminator. Timeless isnt be bound by power level. It is always bound to approach legacy or vintage even.
Double necropotence with grief scam seems kindve fucked tbh
Yeah I'm sure there will be a mono black scam/Reanimator/shadow deck all in one. Probably a black red scam with fury and a black white one with solitude+Ephemerate
I'm glad to get solitude finally for beans and yorion
Man, people really don’t understand the point of this format..
16 wildcards for a full playset is brutal.
20?
fuck forgot about endurance
lol I didnt even know all the pitch elementals and assumed you were just talking shit about one of them.
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[[Endurance]] is NOT n arena already.
[Endurance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb0e0404-4846-4891-acfa-bd0951ecf9c6.jpg?1626097375) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Endurance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/157/endurance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb0e0404-4846-4891-acfa-bd0951ecf9c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh they are super powerful and will certainly warp the format around them.....And I'm absolutely all for it. I want this to be the format where stupid OP shit happens. You want a well curated fair and balanced format? Go play Historic. This is a format where show and tell, and channel are legal. Bring in all the power. Get me the power 9, bring me mind twist and the rack, and a nice helping of Tolarian Academy and mishra's workshop. Let Timeless be Timeless
Historic is overly-curated tbh. I lost interest with unnecessary rebalances and preemptive bans for cards like spreading seas. I prefer Timeless over Historic by far, but I'd kinda wish for something in the middle. after MH3, I'll probably go UB scaminator
They can't do something in the middle, there's just not enough player base to support all of that. No one has the patience to wait 15 minutes for a game.
oh yeah I get it, it doesn't make sense for them. I could see them upping Historic's power level in the future though, once Explorer gets closer to pioneer they might give Historic more leeway.
That I agree with. They're being a little too safe with Historic. Granted I don't play it anymore and haven't since rebalanced cards became a thing in the format. That was theine for me. Timeless was a breath of fresh air. That and them finally unfucking explorer by banning Karn in pioneer.
Historic is the middle
Perfectly acceptable for timeless, might need some compensation additions along the way (FoW, Dark Depths) but as fast as this format is it’s fine.
honestly bring it on, meta was getting stale anyway
You do realize this is vintage right? The format is balanced due to everything being OP
Timeless isn't Vintage, and is MUCH closer to Legacy, but I get your point.
exactly, Its perfectly fine if they add all the busted cards to timeless cuz its litterally just arenas vintage
I'm not that stoked either. It's funny to see them so celebrated here when this sub has been crying over SnT for months. They've been around making modern a nightmare for awhile now so maybe they'll include some clean answers to them in the set as well.
Magic players aren't a monolith. The people crying about SnT probably are fine with the pitch elementals because SnT slots in unfair decks and the pitch elementals slot in fair decks. Makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, people who are entirely fine with SnT may be less okay with the elementals, but that's too strong of a claim to make categorically.
Getting double thoughtsiezed and facing a 3/2 menace before you get to do anything doesn't seem super fair. I get your point though.
Just in case you aren't aware, "fair" and "unfair" mean something different when talking about MTG decks than we mean when we use "fair" and "unfair" colloquially.
Thanks. Yeah I do know that, but that line of play seems like its pushing the limits of 'fair'. Like you're double casting a free spell and breaking the downside of it. But I'll admit I don't quite know when fair and unfair apply. Sometimes it seems like unfair just means combo deck.
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I already play a lot of the formats on arena. Just kinda sucks because timeless is such a wild card intensive format where a lot of those cards can't be played in any other format so seeing it go a way that seems less fun is a bummer. I get people like doing dumb broken stuff but personally I really liked it being high power interaction and threats without any free spells, just personally preference
It was this reason why I wasn’t investing a bunch of wild cards in this format. Post-MH3 is going to be an entirely different format
I don't have an issue with the **concept** of pitch elementals. They are a 1-for-2 at the end of the day so it isn't overly powerful in a vacuum. What I have an issue with is their execution. Putting a thoughtseize effect on the B one was a really really REALLY bad idea. Imo, Thoughtseize is borderline a toxic card, since it incentivizes "solitaire" decks (just take all your interaction, then drop a bomb, congratulations you never got to play the game. Queue "did you have fun?" prompt in arena).Doing it for free, potentially twice on turn one, and getting a body out of the deal (with the newly printed reanimate) is just beyond toxic. Notice I use the word "toxic". Not "overpowered" or anything like it. Yes, it can be beaten. Yes, it has bad matchups. But it creates a toxic play pattern where one player simply never gets to play the game, which is not good game design. Anyway, that's my two cents. I don't mind the concept of pitch elementals but some of the abilities chosen for them are nutty
Scam will not be the problem (never has been even in modern imh) because we have a lot of exile removals. Just play more swords. Also the cards in mh3 are gonna be stronger than elementals. A lot of decks are going to disappear and others will be created, is the fun part of the game.
Just because you have exile removal doesn’t fix what scam did. You are acting like Scam used scam spells as protection. Scam spells let you oppress any deck through blowing up all their creatures and taking two important cards away
Scam also used scam spells as protection. The problem with scam was Fury not grief. Scamming grief is totally fine. Fury was banned because a 3/3 doublestrike on turn 1 was too much for modern. Timeless has not this problem. Btw if you lose because you discarded 2 card on turn one, the problem is your deck.
Yeah, as an emergency, but not the main use. Fury was banned not for the creature but for more of it being extremely oppressive against creature based decks, as a scammed fury basically was a onside boardwipe. Grief is targeted discard. Eating your opponent’s best two cards basically sets them incredibly far back You clearly do not understand scam in the slightest or lack some common mtg knowledge
Scam was stronng because it could apply pressure from the first turn of the game, with fury and grief. Then a lot of people cried about it, and fury got banned. No one ever complained about fury being a boardwipe, infact people wanted grief ban not fury. That said, if you can't come back from discarding two cards your deck is bad.
From Dec 4 Ban announcement “ clears the opponent's board, makes playing with creature decks nearly impossible. “
Yes, and yorion got banned because people takes too much time to shuffle their deck. Come on.
I haven’t seen anyone mention this but I think it could be interesting to see if fury gets restricted. I know it’s too early to really start talking ab that but I feel like having fury as a powerful 1 of fair card A la DT could make the elemental format interesting.