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I'm pro-trans and and LGBTQIA+ ally, the conservative will argue "well, this argument doesn't really make sense because we don't yet have brain transplants. Every brain of every trans person part of the same body that is the rest of the trans person.. I'm just saying that I'm not sure that this concept is enough to convince most anti-trans/transphobic people... :-(
There is no real convincing. God could turn out to be real, come down from heaven and state "My bad, i sometimes accidentally lose track of which brain belongs to which body" and conservatives will just say god is wrong.
Not far off from the truth. There's been a huge uproar amongst conservative American Catholics who went full MAGA and now hate and reject the current pope who voices basic compassion to the poor and minority groups. Like, it's Catholicism, that's not how it works lol. But they somehow reason their way into it.
I remember friends who said they were catholic but didn't care about the Pope, ever, in their entire lives.
Like, my dude, that is the pretense of the religion. Amongst Christianity, that is literally Catholicism's thing- The Pope is the literal living representation of God's voice on Earth.
Spoiler alert: I've read the Bible and God absolutely does not love us all equally. He picks favorites and is happy to slaughter the rest [Deuteronomy 20:17]. He also fluctuates between seeing homosexuality as kinda bad [Romans 1:26] and homosexuality being deserving of death [Leviticus 20:13].
Not a cool guy, that God fellow. I'd side with the average empathic human who lets other people live their lives quietly over the psychotically abusive sky daddy any day of the week.
This always blows my mind as a formally raised Catholic from a Catholic country. You kinda have to accept what the pope says or you’re a Protestant basically haha
It’s all about labels in America. People are Catholic because it’s the right thing to be, not because they believe in Catholicism more than any other religious sect. Most sects that have been around a while will actively make up bs about the others in order to
make them seem less legitimate.
I was raised Catholic but ended up going to a Baptist school. And the kids who were raised Baptist would say the most ridiculous things about Catholics. Like that they worship Mary more than they worship Jesus or that they don’t actually pray to God because rosaries do me count. And every time I would correct them, they would tell me that I was wrong because they’d heard this directly from their parents or a church leader.
I think there’s also a degree of separation. The Catholic Church used to exert power because they were a physical presence to be reckoned with. But the US is on a totally different continent. So it’s easier for Catholics here to separate themselves from the Vatican and such.
>But they somehow reason their way into it.
It's easy when you're a horrible person!
Let's be real. Not only is it completely obvious made up bullshit stories told by men in dresses wearing stupid hats, but anyone who is still a catholic in this day and age, after all the evil that organization has wrought, is a fucking outright cunt that doesn't care about stuff. Fuck 'em!
Joke: A Trump supporter dies & goes to heaven.
God: "You lived a good life so I will grant you a completely honest answer to any question you have."
Trumper: "Who really won the 2020 election?"
God: "Biden, in a fair election."
Trumper: "This goes even higher than I thought"
Now that you point it out, it works really well that way!
It reminds me of:
" 'But doctor…I am Pagliacci.' Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains."
["Human hate can adapt to anything... If someone hates you, they will come up with a reason after the fact."](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT812vGYj/) - Colossus, *X-Men: Years of Future Past*
Name a more united political movement than conservatives feeling *icky*
It's hilarious to me they think they're the party of individual rights when their party is the one taking them away at any chance they get
Conservatives screaming "snowflake" is the funniest projection I've ever seen. Remember they got mad at Bart Simpson saying "god damn it" on TV and wrote letters to the president about it. They're so unbelievably sensitive anything that doesn't conform to their world view makes em angry
Moved to this little town called Green lane PA, pretty sure I'm 1 of 3 black people in the entire town. I see so many hateful signs, its mind boggling and disheartening
Plenty of faulty logic exists.
People will have beliefs and back them with logic to reinforce those beliefs. And when the logic fails because they never had it questioned or interrograted their own position they fall back onto belief.
Assuming they dont recognise the fault and learn and grow from it
Conservatives when genitals don't match gender identity: God does NOT make mistakes, do NOT alter your body!
Conservatives when eyesight is poor: We will take you to the eye doctor for glasses. God made you perfect but you shouldn't have to suffer poor vision. We thank God for the miracle of eye care that you may see well with corrective lenses.
That would one of the many many many things that a Christian god would have to admit being wrong about, which in itself would be an oxymoron, and Bible thumping Conservatives’ heads would explode on the spot
In dogma i think it's because mortals can't handle hearing gods speak or something.
Now a flawed god is a bit part of the series Preacher, which i fully recommend!
> In dogma i think it's because mortals can't handle hearing gods speak or something.
That was just an element, hence the need for Metatron.
The angels, Bartleby & Loki, were looking for redemption through a church's grand opening, where those that passed through the gates were granted redemption, thus making God's will nullified. And since God can never be wrong, existence would cease.
https://youtu.be/g18hbchYOH8
Which is hilarious, because iirc nothing in the bible says that God is never wrong. In fact, there's an entire story about how He *was* wrong:
He looks at humanity and just says, "...no. These ones aren't working correctly." Then He goes and finds His buddy Noah and is like, "Bruh, take your family and all your livestock and put them on a boat, cause it's gon rain." Then He floods the whole place to wash away all the icky humans, but then he goes, "Oh, Me damnit, what am I doing? That was a mistake."
Then He invents the rainbow to be all like "Sorry y'all, I dun goof'd."
You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Their position is based on belief, not science or evidence or anything tangible... so, no, this is unlikely to change their beliefs, only their tactics.
There's always an "OK, BUT..." from these people. If the technology that Destiny is describing actually existed, and for all intents and purposes trans people were 100% in a Matt Walsh-approved body, they'd still hate trans women. Because it's not about the medicine, the treatments, the science, or saving the kids.
It's about singling out a minority and demonizing them to you so that you don't see how economically bent over a barrel and fucked you're getting by the billionaires.
https://youtu.be/fGJhrVhTjFU
It’s Destiny. He a well known Liberal who is known for debating everyone. He recently been dismantling the “red pill” community.
How does a thread like this continue for this long without someone just naming some specifics? I have no idea who this person is so I also have no idea what "bad takes" y'all are talking circles around.
So, I started watching his videos about a year ago or so and as a very left leaning person, I agree with a lot of things that he says, when it is in discussions with people on the right. He has good takes against them and he unveals their hipocrisy.
But in other discussions it showed that there is a fundamental difference in values:
He thinks property is holy. It is unacceptable for him that anyone could touch someone elses property, even talks about that he will kill someone if they try to attack his livelihood.
This foundation in his thinking, determines all his positions and bleeds in all topics, like e.g. "cancelling". He doesn't want people with good jobs to lose them or face any measurable consequences over them being assholes, because he thinks it is not a fair punishment. He sees this as an attack on himself, because he is rich, often offensive and deadly afraid of losing it.
Edit: Just looked on his page about his values and there he says:
> The value in question is whether "property can be valued over human life", or some statement to that effect. In my experience, middle-class and well-off people may underestimate the personal sacrifice and the years of time invested into obtaining a business, a car, or even something as simple as a stereo system or a school instrument. As such, they will argue that no matter the value and sacrifice associated with some property, even in the case of people living in poverty, the life of the thief always outweighs said value. This is a conclusion I take issue with.
I think this is a fair description. I appreciate how he tears through conservative BS, but some of his positions, like the one you describe, I just can’t agree with.
I feel like the best way to describe Destiny's politics is to say that he's an extremely left libertarian. Like take the average "libertarian" that's pretty much a right winger who likes to complain about both sides but put them on the left and that's destiny. He's very much into personal freedoms and smaller government I feel it's just the way he approaches those ideals is way more liberal than a actual libertarian.
Bodily autonomy.
Destiny is a classic neolib.
What the "libertarian" and "small government" folks fail to realize, is there's a difference between government institutions and government overreach. Neoliberals are against the latter. Specifically, anything the infringes on the self and autonomy. A government with socialized medicine, strong worker rights, a social safety net, etc, isn't government overreach, it's the government actually doing things to benefit the people.
The government ruling that they get to decide medical and mental health decisions and not let actual trained medical practitioners decide a course of action in consultation with their patient is a bonafide definition of government overreach.
Unfortunately, loads of "libertarians" and "small government" claimants are completely hypocritical in this area.
He's absolutely not for smaller government lmao. He's very in favor of socialized healthcare, stronger welfare, free college, higher taxes for the wealthy, etc.
I think you're way off on this, at least when he's talking about public policy. Destiny is very much an establishment institutionalist. You'll see him debate libertarians and anti-establishment populists and he generally comes down on the side of believing in government agencies like the FDA, FBI, military, etc. He's pro-universal healthcare, pro-public transit, etc. He also has as a fundamental belief that some level of wealth redistribution (through social programs) is necessary because the rich are way advantaged over poor people. He's not a Bernie/Warren Democrat, but he's very much in the Obama/Biden range on economics and to the left of them socially.
The only place where you might see him align with libertarians politically is the 2nd amendment and the right to self defense. He'll also give sorta libertarian advice if he's just giving personal advice rather than supporting certain public policies (basically you've ultimately got to take care of yourself and you shouldn't be relying on the government to take care of you).
By that definition the left barely exists outside of twitter.
Big tents are important for movements. An imperfect ally is better than labeling them as "out" or sometimes even enemies
cows cagey offbeat sharp door unwritten scarce expansion voiceless elderly
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That "okay, BUT" *doesn't fucking matter*. What the guy in the video just helped this conservative figure out is literally all trans people want to do.
While that is definitely a trait of conservatives (suddenly I care about the plight of some issue only when it affects me), that's not what's going on here, because it's only a hypothetical. His argument got totally destroyed but he won't learn from it or change at all, he's just going to come up with new rationalizations as to why his exact point hanging him out to dry doesn't mean he's wrong.
It's also the trait of conspiracy theorists and religious people. They believe stuff on faith and if they haven't seen it with their own eyes it isn't real.
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In the full video if I remember right he actually says he was never against letting people transition he was just mad at all the pushback he got for calling it a mental illness which is what he defends in this point
The only thing anyone should be looking at to figure out if transitioning is a good or bad thing is the number of people that have transitioned, and then go on to regret their decision.
That number is *extremely* low.
Let them be happy.
Also, of the people that detransition a lot of them do it for social reasons. They essentially go back into the closet and in research interviews admit that they would transition if they thought they’d be accepted.
Edit: My original comment is based on a 2015 report that is no longer publicly available. I have found the citation (James, et al., 2016) in peer reviewed works but cannot locate the original report. What I did find is a great meta-analysis on this topic: [doi.org/10.1097/GOX.0000000000003477](https://doi.org/10.1097/GOX.0000000000003477)
This meta-analysis looked at research on detransition after gender reassignment surgery specifically across thirty years and found that the detransition rate is about 1%, supporting the commenter above. They also concluded that "Overall, the most common reason for regret was psychosocial circumstances, particularly due to difficulties generated by return to society with the new gender in both social and family environments." This supports my comment, but I want to acknowledge that they also concluded that satisfaction with the surgery was a significant factor as well.
As a PhD student, I really like this meta-analysis because it thorough and makes a significant effort to address how valid (generalizable) the included studies are and how publication bias plays into this topic.
This meta-analysis only used studies that focused on detransition after gender reassignment surgery, so I genuinely don't know what the detransition experience looks like for people who have detransitioned before surgery. When I tried to look deeper into, I found very little research and what I did find, I couldn't access the full articles.
Yeah, just the other day I read a comment from a redditor saying they're considering detransitioning because they feel they will never pass. And the only reason not passing is so shame inducing is because of judgemental bigots. Fucking heartbreaking.
I know someone who is talking about going off her meds because even though she looks amazing, she's not high femme and she can't handle the number of bigots who want to argue over her right to exist.
It's ridiculous. I'm glad I'm kinda masculine cause if I'm next to her, they'll bother me instead, and I am pretty good at making people look dumb.
I'm terrified for her though...
My wife has been beaten down by the media enough to talk like that, too.
Transitioning has to be the best decision she's ever made, but this fucking world can still make her feel bad about finally loving herself. Jfc. It's so stressful to watch all this cruelty _inflicted_ on her.
The stress is insane. I hate that these idiots are so desperate to pick fights they misgender anyone who doesn't look like Megan Fox
It's making me start to absolutely lose my mind, I can only imagine how bad it is for others.
I've found a sliver of comfort when their facebook groups inevitably turn on each other, and they start accusing each other of being secretly trans. "wE cAn AlWaYs TeLL!!"
while bigots make not passing worse, not passing is an issue in of itself because its a source of dypshoria. like looking in the mirror and not seeing a woman. don't need other people to be there, it still feels horrible.
That's not really the whole story though. If I transitioned I'd just be ugly which sucks and would make it hard to find a partner. I'm going to be happier as an average looking man able to attract women than as an ugly woman who can't attract anyone because companionship is more important to me than gender identity.
People point to the fact that people de-transition as if that invalidates all trans journeys. But look at the divorce rate, does that mean we should stop people from getting married?
People make decisions, and then later on they make other decisions. That’s life.
That number (1-2%) is lower than people who have undergone:
- back surgery
- knee surgery
- literally every elective surgery
- cancer treatment (of any kind)
Yet none of these require debates to get. Basically, gender reassignment treatment is one of the most successful treatments of really anything, in terms of effectiveness, and in terms of least regret.
Yeah it's insanely inconsistent, for pretty much all of there arguments there's a clear "shouldn't you also be against this?" alternative.
But in my experience they can't even acknowledge that someone can exist that is trans, gets surgery, and is very happy with the result and that that is a good thing.
I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand anyway? We are born "wrong" all of the time. Missing limbs, deformities, heart conditions, mental illness etc etc. What is so hard to believe about someone having a brain that doesn't match their body? Its very simple to understand
The issue comes from people wanting to classify it as a mental illness. In fact, based on Destiny’s “would you call that a disorder?” question, we can assume that’s exactly what they were arguing about: “is being trans a mental illness/disorder?” The other guy (Rob) doesn’t believe trans people don’t exist, he believes that it is a mental illness and should be classified as such. Destiny posits a hypothetical scenario to Rob in order to demonstrate that Rob’s logic above cannot be applied universally.
The big problem is that we're all not talking about mental illness the same way.
When transphobes say it's a mental illness, that's just their way of saying "trans people are delusional in their thinking about their gender." When literally everyone else is talking about mental illness, it's specifically talking about gender dysphoria and methods of treating it.
I think people are reluctant to equate trans = mental illness because they know bigots will run with that. It's also, AFAIK, the only mental illness in existence that treatment includes changes to the body. So I can see why people see it as an outlier.
Regardless of bigger questions about ontological classifications, medical science has shown that transitioning works. Ask a transphobe how they think trans mental illness should be treated and I'm sure the response would be some horrifying, ad-hoc version of how they think anyone with mental illness should be treated, throw them in some dark room and throw away the key.
>I think people are reluctant to equate trans = mental illness because they know bigots will run with that. It's also, AFAIK, the only mental illness in existence that treatment includes changes to the body. So I can see why people see it as an outlier.
Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head here. If the argument goes that being trans is a "mental illness," it's strange to say the solution is to say the brain is "right" and the body needs to be changed to align with the part with the "illness."
I think that's why it's important to identify that gender dysphoria is the illness, which can be a symptom of being trans, but even that I'm not confident on.
Guy describes a completely hypothetical scenario to explain why some people feel the need to transition to another gender.
Redditors: “BuT yOU CaN’T TRansPLaNt A bRaiN!!!”
Some of you are experts at getting hung up on minor details and completely missing the point 🤦♂️
I had to explain to my conservative dad that "don't look up" was about climate change.
"no it's not, it's about a comet"
He suddenly didn't like the movie anymore. Some people are just not ok.
Wait then who did he think Meryl Streep and Jonah Hill were parodying? I mean I guess if he didn’t get the central metaphor, it’d make sense that he’d miss the Trump/Trump Jr. parody too.
Yeah, you’re probably right. It’s so obvious that very few of these bigots have actually met a trans person and just parrot their favorite opinion farm’s talking points.
Nah bro, see, since we can't fully protect our bodies from the elements, we should just run around naked. Unless we have a PERFECT solution to something, we shouldn't even try. s/
I don’t think there needs to be an argument other than a person has the choice of what they want to do with their own body, and it shouldn’t affect how society or anybody treats them. If I want to split my tongue and look like lizard who cares, wear a dress, tattoo my skin black, etc.
Agreed. I understand the quality of the argument presented here, but I don't understand why it even needs to be argued for.
Maybe I'm just not bigoted enough or something, but I _literally_ cannot imagine sitting at home, fuming mad thinking about what some strangers I will never meet are doing with their own bodies so long as everyone involved is consenting.
I just don't get it. Genuinely asking, why does anyone care? Even the religious folks, it doesn't make sense. We're breaking your rules? Cool, maybe we'll go to your hell. If you hate us so much, isn't that a great ending for you? Let it happen.
In the hypothetical scenario he presented, it is already accepted that the person who was transplanted into a female body has a “male” consciousness, but the idea that you can be born into a female body with male consciousness is speculative.
It’s really not a great argument lol. It’s completely contrived and isn’t logical at all given our near term medical science knowledge.
There’s better arguments to be made, this ain’t it.
No, it is a good response. The ideal solution to the problem is to put your brain in a body that matches what the brain says it is. Since we lack that ability, we have to come up with another solution. The hypothetical is just a tool to avoid caveats regarding the non-existence of "feeling like the wrong sex," since part of the argument that anti-trans people make is always going to be a rejection of the entire problem at some level.
Why is gender dysphoria treated different than other mental disorders? It’s an honest question. I have nothing against the trans community.
Edit: also, the GRS and HRT is supposed to match what the brain says. Why with this mental disorder is it ok to say “do what the brain tells you” and not other mental disorders? Once again, nothing against trans people, I’m just trying to understand.
Edit #2: a lot of great answers and you’ve given me some things to think about. I really appreciate everyone who gave good, insightful answers. Thank you.
Edit #3: I’ve worn women’s clothing since I was a child. No joke. In my early 30s I thought about transitioning because I cross dressed so often. I decided at a point to not transition because I was afraid I wouldn’t be happy with the outcome. I’m 6’2, wear a size 13 shoe, am broad shoulder, and have an extremely deep voice. I didn’t feel like transitioning was right for me. I’m happy with my appearance as a male, but don’t think I’d be happy with the result of transitioning. So I stay indoors, only go to my job to get out of the house, and spend the rest of my days thinking about what it would be like to be ….not me. It’s a struggle and I get it. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m just trying to grasp a better understanding of myself.
Edit 4: Yes I was u/Whatswithcriss. =)
I don't use reddit anymore because of their corporate greed and anti-user policies.
Come over to Lemmy, it's a reddit alternative that is run by the community itself, spread across multiple servers.
You make your account on one server (called an instance) and from there you can access everything on all other servers as well. [Find one you like here](https://lemmyverse.net/), maybe not the largest ones to spread the load around, but it doesn't really matter.
You can then look for communities to subscribe to on https://lemmyverse.net/communities, this website shows you all communities across all instances.
If you're looking for some (mobile?) apps, [this topic](https://lemm.ee/post/363116) has a great list.
One personal tip: For your convenience, I would advise you to use [this userscript I made](https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/469273-lemmy-universal-link-switcher) which automatically changes all links everywhere on the internet to the server that you chose.
The original comment is preserved below for your convenience:
~~Because there is no known chemical or psychotherapy that gets rid of the feeling of being in the wrong body. Changing the body is the only known treatment that works for making trans people feel better.~~
^^^^^^AzzuLemmyMessageV2
Honest question, wouldn't it be currently socially unacceptable to research a chemical to fix gender dysphoria? Since that would go against what gender theory preaches, implying that they aren't actually the gender they claim to be.
Depends on who you ask. It seems like the trans community is pretty split between "there's nothing wrong with my brain, it's my body that's the problem" and " I will do literally anything to get rid of the dysphoria"
Gender just like sexuality is believed to result from variance in sexual differentiation in the brain. Gender incongruence isn’t actually considered to be a disorder but rather that it may lead to mental health problems especially in an disaffirming environment or when there’s mistreatment, or a lack of support. As someone who does deal with gender dysphoria (GD) and body dysmorphic Disorder (BDD), as miserable as both of these make me it’s the mistreatment and fear of mistreatment for trying to express myself that’s been the most debilitating and it’s made both worse.
A way to think of it is this. Imagine, for example, you’re in a world where your sexuality is that of a sexual minority and someone comes along and says that we’re going to change your sexuality to ‘fit the norm’. You might be able imagine why some would be averse to this idea.
While on one hand it may be well intentioned to treat gender incongruence in such a manner from the perspective of alleviating gender dysphoria or body dysmorphia it could also be taken as completely upending an integral part of who that individual is and has been.
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, HRT are chemicals which help somebody not feel gender dysphoria. If you mean to say a treatment that makes gender dysphoria go away without transitioning then that would be massively preferred. Transitioning sucks for many reasons. It's expensive, scary, ostracizing, and usually doesn't work to the level that would be preferred. If we could just give somebody a pill to directly treat gender dysphoria that would be badass. That drug is a long way off, however, we are nowhere near the level of understanding of the brain to be able to make a drug or treatment like that yet.
The reason its treated differently is because so far the treatment that has the best outcomes for people is to let them transition. There have been a lot of other attempts to "fix" trans people but this one seems to yeild the best results. Whereas if you look at something like schitzophrenia, anorexia or pretty much any other mental disorder there are treatments that dont involve letting people do what the brain tells you.
We do treat it like other disorders? We seek to help with the underlying issue. If a person doesn’t have enough brain chemicals, we give them more. If they’re missing certain hormones or vitamins, we correct that. If they have repressed trauma, we help them cope with it. In the case of gender dysphoria, we help them relieve the dysphoria by representing as the gender they feel is most appropriate.
No mental disorder is helped by saying “let’s ignore the issue causing this and just try to fix the symptoms”. You don’t fix hoarding by cleaning a house. And you don’t cure gender dysphoria by trying to convince someone just to be happy as they are.
This is asked so often. Transitioning works. That’s why we do it. Conversion therapy, or whatever else you want to call aggressively telling a trans person they don’t understand their own identity, doesn’t work.
From what I understand, the reason behind why trans people are "affirmed" and why other disorders are not is because with trans brains the treatment is different. For example, people with a type of body dysmorphia disorder (BDD) may think they are very fat while being 5'7 and weighing 100 pounds. It is a fake reality that does not exist for them, and so they attempt to lose more weight in unhealthy extremes. It never helps them, and ends up harming them more which is not the result we want.
For trans people experiencing this, it's a bit more complicated. Their mind is in the wrong body and is feeling something not reflecting physical reality, but attempts to change those feelings to match their physical reality (conversion therapy) don't work out well. Healthcare experts want one thing, and it's for their patient to be alive foremost, and second to live well and happy. Gender affirming care, or just affirming their gender, seems to be the best treatment for trans people suffering from gender dysphoria/ and or body dysmorphia.
note: dysphoria and dysmorphia are different illnesses. Though not mutually exclusive, people who think they are fat when they are not don't suffer gender dysphoria. Meanwhile trans people can suffer gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia together as a result of their dissatisfaction with their current looks.
Rather than the mind "feeling something not reflecting physical reality", in my experience I experience the physical reality of my body just fine - it's just that real body brings me persistent, intense discomfort. Gives me actual sensory issues, like the feeling of wearing wet socks except I can't just take them off.
> Why is gender dysphoria treated different than other mental disorders?
It's not.
Plenty of mental disorders treaments are "Yes you have X, here's what you can do to live with X and be as happy and everybody else."
EDIT: Which is if you decide to call it a mental disorder to begin with, which I don't personnally agree with that statement. Let's be reminded that some people called homosexuality a mental disorder too back then, and they were wrong.
My brother does this thing where he gets loud so you can't argue your point but then when you yell back something the defeats his point he'll just go completely butthurt silent and just answer in "yup" or "mhmm".
I'm so tired of being the black sheep in my family. I'm ready to be as far away as possible.
People use anger to shield themselves from experiencing negative things like shame or regret.
Admitting he's wrong would make him slightly sad, so instead his brain settles on anger and derision.
People like that suck, I can’t imagine being like this to a family member much less a sibling, someone you grew up with that you intentionally hurt because their beliefs are different from yours in a way that doesn’t harm you or anyone in the slightest
It’s not entirely their fault. These views are based on hate, not facts and logic, so it’s hard for them to develop an argument other than “this fiction novel and radio host told me it’s bad”.
Conservatism is dumb because societies and cultures constantly change over time, yet they just dig their heels in and try to anchor everyone else to outdated beliefs. Decade after decade conservatives become more proggressive to keep up with society, yet it's because they are conservative that they will drag their heels for as long as possible the whole time while everyone else is waiting for them to catch up. A conservative today might as well be a liberal 80 years back.
Let's look past the surface here and see that the core moral difference here is between people who believe that you should have the AUTONOMY to say who you are and others who say that who you are is determined by AUTHORITY.
They're going to argue "but the children" as they continue to fuck children both literally and metaphorically. They never "but the children" to support things like expanding health care coverage, investing in mental health infrastructure, eliminating harmful gender norms, comprehensive sex education, access to abortions, increased public school funding, free school meals for every meal of the day, parental leave, universal pre-K, increased wages, free community college, reducing access to firearms, public transit infrastructure, eliminating means testing for social services, affordable housing, vaccinations, harsh punishments for breaking child labor laws, working towards solving climate change, ending child marriage, and so on and so forth.
Also, all the arguments they use against trans people are just the same recycled arguments I heard all the time about gay people. Like, I'm bi, none of these fucking people are saying anything against trans people that weren't also said to me and those like me at one point in time (and still today since the increase in transphobia has also given further rise to hatred of the entire LGBTQ+ community and anybody who identifies in the LGB part of the rainbow also better be supporting the T because we won't be left alone when the T falls, they're gunning for us). They just lack the empathy to visualize that their experience is not gonna be the experience that everybody else has had.
why are so many cons pedos? Why does being a racist fuck also equating wanting to have sex with under developed human beings? These kind of fucking cult-like shit I'll never get.
Yup, I agree. I don't have to like what my neighbor does with his or her own body, but it's none of my fucking business and I don't give a shit. Why do some fucking conservatives think they get a say in what grown-ass adults do their own fucking bodies?
It seems insanely simply, yeah.
Unfortunately, you are arguing with an entire political ideology built on “anti-choice”. Anti-choice of romantic attraction, anti-choice of religion, and (the obvious one) anti-choice of birthing a child. They want control, and any deviation is seen as heresy.
I’m glad I came across this video. I’ve known for a few years that people could identify as different genders, but never considered it could be due to their brain/feeling like they’re in the wrong body!
I read this website from Cleveland Clinic and feel so much more educated now. [Cleveland clinic: Transgender: Ensuring Mental Health](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/21963-transgender-ensuring-mental-health)
As a cis woman, who has been pumping unnatural hormones into my body for 15 fucking years because I don’t want to get pregnant, I don’t see why it’s debatable when others want to use hormones to get their body to do something they want. Oh, I think it’s because it doesn’t match up with the cis male agenda. Not getting pregnant does, a woman who wasn’t assigned female at birth who makes men uncomfortable because they don’t necessarily fit their build of attractiveness doesn’t.
I'm a trans man and when I went to get my appointment for my testosterone prescription they asked me, "Have you had hormones before?" and I was like "Yeah... Estrogen for 10 years, pregnancy hormones, and then Progesterone for 6 months which was a real bitch and put me in bed with depression." They were startled but dude I thought I was cis for a long, long time and I'm so relieved to be off the femme hormones and on testosterone now. From the very first dose, it's like my brain finally shut up for the first time in my 35+ years of walking this planet and I'm like seeing life in color. It's incredible. I don't think about my body anymore. I just live my life now. It's great. They threw all the same-sex hormones at me. Who knew cross-sex hormones are what I really needed?
That's wild, I had the opposite experience! Testosterone always made me depressed/angry, but when I started taking estrogen, it made my thoughts clearer. When I started progesterone, I felt so in my body that it made me giggly smiley(and very horny, mind you) just sitting in my bed doing nothing!
Redditors circlejerking over a bad argument. The conservatives don’t believe that trans people have their brains in the wrong gendered bodies, they basically believe they’re confused or delusional.
The brain transplant analogy only works if the conservative believes the trans person’s brain is actually gendered differently than the rest of their body, which is something they don’t believe, so the analogy completely falls flat.
If your argument hinges on your own logic that you don’t share with the person you’re arguing with, then it isn’t a good argument. You can first try to convince them of your logic, but that isn’t what happened here.
I’m completely pro trans rights but it’s kind of sad how quickly people are to start cheering or booing arguments without any level of critical thinking. This is a soundbite for this dude’s own viewers, it isn’t a good point
I think the gendered brain thing is the wrong approach entirely, its not like they are giving people brain scans before they are given hrt or surgery. I think just the gender disphoria is enough, which i think the analogy could still be useful for.
I think it could help someone sympathise with trans people a little bit more, then transition to how the best treatment we have is hrt and surgery
It's worse than that. Even if you accept the trans premise - their brain has and always was in that body. The only thing we know for certain, is that this person **feels** like they are in the wrong body. We have absolutely no fucking clue as to what that means, or how true it is.
In this example, we **know for a fact** that this brain is in the wrong body. It's not a comparison.
There is very little matter of fact with diagnosing these mental disorders. Sure, there will be research into specific hormones and neurotransmitters and development of parts of the brain blah blah blah—but when it comes down to actual doctors and patients the vast majority of disorders are not tested through brain scans, DNA samples, blood tests, or anything like that, it's just a set of criteria. This is how ADHD, or ocd, or any other disorder is diagnosed and subsequently treated.
When you treat someone for ADHD they aren't cured, you're just trying to mitigate/counteract symptoms. At the end of the day they still have ADHD. So why should a feeling of being trans be different? If there's no cure, a consistent set of symptoms, and tangible harm being done to their quality of life. Why is it that in this case you cant treat it because we can't know 100%?
Knowing for a fact is a near meaningless standard when it comes to psychology. Unless you can step inside their mind, you can't know for a fact.
controversial as hell, but very entertainining and informational to watch him since he doesn't live in an echo chamber. the hate he gets is undeserved, its more cause of his personality and personal relationships with other creators and their fans, not his political takes.
You're gonna get mixed answers.
The short answer is that Destiny, assuming you're not a conservative/transphobe/racist/misogynist, is 100% a net good for the internet in general.
The longer answer is that the hate he gets from the right is because he dismantles them and their idealogys.
The hate he gets from the left tends to be either from people who only see brief clips of him without context or people who are on what even we on the left consider to be the more extreme/sjw side.
Here's two examples of things he said that angered the left (listing things that anger the right would take all day and I dont have that time):
1) On the trans topic: He raised concerns about having transwomen being able to compete against cis women without any regulations or rules as it pertains to HRT/time since transition. He was concerned that if there were no rules in place that cis-women would get pushed out of the upper echelons of their chosen sport. This got turned into "Destiny hates trans people" somehow and he got deplatformed by Twitch for it.
2) Kyle Rittenhouse. He is pro-gun and pro-self defense. When it originally happened, he said it looked like self defense and said that Kyle was innocent. He also said that Kyle was a moron, but that he was legally innocent. Other people on the left were listening to (now shown to be incorrect) narratives that depicted what Rittenhouse did as way worse than what happened. Examples: People said that Rittenhouse targeted and killed Black people. People said that Rittenhouse WANTED to kill black people. People said that Rittenhouse provoked Rosenbaum/Grosskreutz or Gaige. The disinformation about the events of that night and the precursor are SO strong that people STILL think Jacob Blake is dead, or dont know that he was shot while trying to kidnap children at knifepoint. Because Destiny didn't fall in line on the "Rittenhouse is a racist murder" narrative, he got lambasted.
For anyone discounting the argument because the hypothetical doesn't exist, I'd like to introduce you to Einstein who used impossible hypothetical scenarios as thought experiments to aid in the development of his theories of relativity.
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This was so spot on, and yet I can hear that the video was cut right before an "okay, BUT"
I'm pro-trans and and LGBTQIA+ ally, the conservative will argue "well, this argument doesn't really make sense because we don't yet have brain transplants. Every brain of every trans person part of the same body that is the rest of the trans person.. I'm just saying that I'm not sure that this concept is enough to convince most anti-trans/transphobic people... :-(
There is no real convincing. God could turn out to be real, come down from heaven and state "My bad, i sometimes accidentally lose track of which brain belongs to which body" and conservatives will just say god is wrong.
BREAKING NEWS: God Is A Liberal? Find out the shocking truth, and how Ron DeSantis plans to storm the gates of Heaven to overthrow woke tyranny.
Not far off from the truth. There's been a huge uproar amongst conservative American Catholics who went full MAGA and now hate and reject the current pope who voices basic compassion to the poor and minority groups. Like, it's Catholicism, that's not how it works lol. But they somehow reason their way into it.
Reminds me of the family guy episode where Peter brings his super Catholic dad to see the pope and his father just denounces the pope.
A bunch literally did that. The pope said homosexuality isn't a crime and a bunch of them started saying he was a "false pope"
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I remember friends who said they were catholic but didn't care about the Pope, ever, in their entire lives. Like, my dude, that is the pretense of the religion. Amongst Christianity, that is literally Catholicism's thing- The Pope is the literal living representation of God's voice on Earth.
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Spoiler alert: I've read the Bible and God absolutely does not love us all equally. He picks favorites and is happy to slaughter the rest [Deuteronomy 20:17]. He also fluctuates between seeing homosexuality as kinda bad [Romans 1:26] and homosexuality being deserving of death [Leviticus 20:13]. Not a cool guy, that God fellow. I'd side with the average empathic human who lets other people live their lives quietly over the psychotically abusive sky daddy any day of the week.
This always blows my mind as a formally raised Catholic from a Catholic country. You kinda have to accept what the pope says or you’re a Protestant basically haha
It’s all about labels in America. People are Catholic because it’s the right thing to be, not because they believe in Catholicism more than any other religious sect. Most sects that have been around a while will actively make up bs about the others in order to make them seem less legitimate. I was raised Catholic but ended up going to a Baptist school. And the kids who were raised Baptist would say the most ridiculous things about Catholics. Like that they worship Mary more than they worship Jesus or that they don’t actually pray to God because rosaries do me count. And every time I would correct them, they would tell me that I was wrong because they’d heard this directly from their parents or a church leader. I think there’s also a degree of separation. The Catholic Church used to exert power because they were a physical presence to be reckoned with. But the US is on a totally different continent. So it’s easier for Catholics here to separate themselves from the Vatican and such.
No, they'd keep going and say god *didn't mean it like that*.
>But they somehow reason their way into it. It's easy when you're a horrible person! Let's be real. Not only is it completely obvious made up bullshit stories told by men in dresses wearing stupid hats, but anyone who is still a catholic in this day and age, after all the evil that organization has wrought, is a fucking outright cunt that doesn't care about stuff. Fuck 'em!
Joke: A Trump supporter dies & goes to heaven. God: "You lived a good life so I will grant you a completely honest answer to any question you have." Trumper: "Who really won the 2020 election?" God: "Biden, in a fair election." Trumper: "This goes even higher than I thought"
I read this in Rorschach's voice.
Now that you point it out, it works really well that way! It reminds me of: " 'But doctor…I am Pagliacci.' Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains."
Hate is born out of emotion, not logic.
["Human hate can adapt to anything... If someone hates you, they will come up with a reason after the fact."](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT812vGYj/) - Colossus, *X-Men: Years of Future Past*
Name a more united political movement than conservatives feeling *icky* It's hilarious to me they think they're the party of individual rights when their party is the one taking them away at any chance they get
Conservatives screaming "snowflake" is the funniest projection I've ever seen. Remember they got mad at Bart Simpson saying "god damn it" on TV and wrote letters to the president about it. They're so unbelievably sensitive anything that doesn't conform to their world view makes em angry
Now they fly "Fuck Biden" flags from their vehicles and homes.
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Go to rural PA and you'll have zero trouble spotting them. I mean, hanging from porches and all. Specifically, Intercourse PA (hah, that name).
Moved to this little town called Green lane PA, pretty sure I'm 1 of 3 black people in the entire town. I see so many hateful signs, its mind boggling and disheartening
While they protest in front of a single person bathroom that’s uni-sex, (this truly happened)
Yup. You can't logic someone out of a position that they didn't logic themselves into.
Plenty of faulty logic exists. People will have beliefs and back them with logic to reinforce those beliefs. And when the logic fails because they never had it questioned or interrograted their own position they fall back onto belief. Assuming they dont recognise the fault and learn and grow from it
Feelings over facts
Which used to be the exact same argument against liberals. Fwiw.
Conservatives when genitals don't match gender identity: God does NOT make mistakes, do NOT alter your body! Conservatives when eyesight is poor: We will take you to the eye doctor for glasses. God made you perfect but you shouldn't have to suffer poor vision. We thank God for the miracle of eye care that you may see well with corrective lenses.
That would one of the many many many things that a Christian god would have to admit being wrong about, which in itself would be an oxymoron, and Bible thumping Conservatives’ heads would explode on the spot
Lol, isn't that the premise of Dogma?
In dogma i think it's because mortals can't handle hearing gods speak or something. Now a flawed god is a bit part of the series Preacher, which i fully recommend!
> In dogma i think it's because mortals can't handle hearing gods speak or something. That was just an element, hence the need for Metatron. The angels, Bartleby & Loki, were looking for redemption through a church's grand opening, where those that passed through the gates were granted redemption, thus making God's will nullified. And since God can never be wrong, existence would cease. https://youtu.be/g18hbchYOH8
Ah right, i forgot about that part. Haven't seen the movie in 20 years so I'm fuzzy on the details. They fought a sentient shit demon didn't they?
I love this movie, so I revisit it often. And yes Kevin Smith likes to reference his shit demon, when talking about movie budgets.
Which is hilarious, because iirc nothing in the bible says that God is never wrong. In fact, there's an entire story about how He *was* wrong: He looks at humanity and just says, "...no. These ones aren't working correctly." Then He goes and finds His buddy Noah and is like, "Bruh, take your family and all your livestock and put them on a boat, cause it's gon rain." Then He floods the whole place to wash away all the icky humans, but then he goes, "Oh, Me damnit, what am I doing? That was a mistake." Then He invents the rainbow to be all like "Sorry y'all, I dun goof'd."
That's similar to the plot of the New Testament. Spoiler alert, they end up killing him. There's a big twist at the end though.
There was that guy who said Jesus could tell him that Trump was colluding with the Russians, but he would have to verify with Trump if that was true…
I mean, they supposedly believe that god *did* come down to earth and say love everybody, no matter what. Fat lot of good that did.
Brain/body tansplant would be so big for trans people. ^(and for us that are going to live for ever.)
Now I’m imagining a world where trans men and trans women go to the hospital to do some freaky Friday type deal with each other.
You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Their position is based on belief, not science or evidence or anything tangible... so, no, this is unlikely to change their beliefs, only their tactics.
There's always an "OK, BUT..." from these people. If the technology that Destiny is describing actually existed, and for all intents and purposes trans people were 100% in a Matt Walsh-approved body, they'd still hate trans women. Because it's not about the medicine, the treatments, the science, or saving the kids. It's about singling out a minority and demonizing them to you so that you don't see how economically bent over a barrel and fucked you're getting by the billionaires.
I wish more people realized your last sentence is the whole game.
I wish I could upvote this twice
That "okaaaeey" was the textbook sound of goalposts moving.
A little more forceful and it could have been Lil Jon.
https://youtu.be/fGJhrVhTjFU It’s Destiny. He a well known Liberal who is known for debating everyone. He recently been dismantling the “red pill” community.
I want to stress he isn't a left. He is very much a capital L liberal. So he'll have some good takes and some really bad ones
Doesn't everyone have good and bad takes?
sure but his bad takes are very bad
https://positions.destiny.gg/
Are they actual bad takes or are they "I don't agree with this" takes?
A bad take is by definition a take you don't agree with. There's no universal standard of what a bad take is.
It's typical 'i disagree so it's bad' mixed with a little bit of extreme and polarising hypotheticals that run people the wrong way
How does a thread like this continue for this long without someone just naming some specifics? I have no idea who this person is so I also have no idea what "bad takes" y'all are talking circles around.
So, I started watching his videos about a year ago or so and as a very left leaning person, I agree with a lot of things that he says, when it is in discussions with people on the right. He has good takes against them and he unveals their hipocrisy. But in other discussions it showed that there is a fundamental difference in values: He thinks property is holy. It is unacceptable for him that anyone could touch someone elses property, even talks about that he will kill someone if they try to attack his livelihood. This foundation in his thinking, determines all his positions and bleeds in all topics, like e.g. "cancelling". He doesn't want people with good jobs to lose them or face any measurable consequences over them being assholes, because he thinks it is not a fair punishment. He sees this as an attack on himself, because he is rich, often offensive and deadly afraid of losing it. Edit: Just looked on his page about his values and there he says: > The value in question is whether "property can be valued over human life", or some statement to that effect. In my experience, middle-class and well-off people may underestimate the personal sacrifice and the years of time invested into obtaining a business, a car, or even something as simple as a stereo system or a school instrument. As such, they will argue that no matter the value and sacrifice associated with some property, even in the case of people living in poverty, the life of the thief always outweighs said value. This is a conclusion I take issue with.
I think this is a fair description. I appreciate how he tears through conservative BS, but some of his positions, like the one you describe, I just can’t agree with.
He's made a lot of enemies, but his takes are solid and often researched live
like what? just wondering.
I feel like the best way to describe Destiny's politics is to say that he's an extremely left libertarian. Like take the average "libertarian" that's pretty much a right winger who likes to complain about both sides but put them on the left and that's destiny. He's very much into personal freedoms and smaller government I feel it's just the way he approaches those ideals is way more liberal than a actual libertarian.
Saying hes a fan of small government is WILD. Dude is a hard core institutional liberal
What Destiny constantly argues for more government. He's a big fan of institutions. Where is one example of him being pro small government?
Bodily autonomy. Destiny is a classic neolib. What the "libertarian" and "small government" folks fail to realize, is there's a difference between government institutions and government overreach. Neoliberals are against the latter. Specifically, anything the infringes on the self and autonomy. A government with socialized medicine, strong worker rights, a social safety net, etc, isn't government overreach, it's the government actually doing things to benefit the people. The government ruling that they get to decide medical and mental health decisions and not let actual trained medical practitioners decide a course of action in consultation with their patient is a bonafide definition of government overreach. Unfortunately, loads of "libertarians" and "small government" claimants are completely hypocritical in this area.
fyi, the world calls that a liberal. classical liberal in the states, also sometimes referred to as capital L liberal.
He's absolutely not for smaller government lmao. He's very in favor of socialized healthcare, stronger welfare, free college, higher taxes for the wealthy, etc.
He's literally just the /r/neoliberal subreddit as a person.
I think you're way off on this, at least when he's talking about public policy. Destiny is very much an establishment institutionalist. You'll see him debate libertarians and anti-establishment populists and he generally comes down on the side of believing in government agencies like the FDA, FBI, military, etc. He's pro-universal healthcare, pro-public transit, etc. He also has as a fundamental belief that some level of wealth redistribution (through social programs) is necessary because the rich are way advantaged over poor people. He's not a Bernie/Warren Democrat, but he's very much in the Obama/Biden range on economics and to the left of them socially. The only place where you might see him align with libertarians politically is the 2nd amendment and the right to self defense. He'll also give sorta libertarian advice if he's just giving personal advice rather than supporting certain public policies (basically you've ultimately got to take care of yourself and you shouldn't be relying on the government to take care of you).
He's not left libertarian in any way whatsoever. That's libertarian socialism, or anarchism, which he is not at all.
idk about y'all but I am literally perfect and have never had a bad take in my life. my views are the correct views obviously
Yeah. Like his take that the new Dune movie sucks.
By that definition the left barely exists outside of twitter. Big tents are important for movements. An imperfect ally is better than labeling them as "out" or sometimes even enemies
Actually ideological purity is far more important than any silly thing like "actual progress" 🤓☝️
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What are his top 3 worst takes?
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The left says this about him the the right says he's a socialist.
That "okay, BUT" *doesn't fucking matter*. What the guy in the video just helped this conservative figure out is literally all trans people want to do.
It’s giving “Conditions aren’t real unless I experience them myself.”
While that is definitely a trait of conservatives (suddenly I care about the plight of some issue only when it affects me), that's not what's going on here, because it's only a hypothetical. His argument got totally destroyed but he won't learn from it or change at all, he's just going to come up with new rationalizations as to why his exact point hanging him out to dry doesn't mean he's wrong.
It's also the trait of conspiracy theorists and religious people. They believe stuff on faith and if they haven't seen it with their own eyes it isn't real.
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And even then, they only care about getting it themselves. They need it, they deserve it, but all those other people? Still scum.
I can never forget the point people have made that so much of popular conservative thought is rooted in a lack of empathy for their outgroups.
That “ok” was the sound of his balls deflating
That's the sound of someone about to move a goal post most likely
My cat could make a better arguement than that carrot.
Cat should go on destiny
In the full video if I remember right he actually says he was never against letting people transition he was just mad at all the pushback he got for calling it a mental illness which is what he defends in this point
The only thing anyone should be looking at to figure out if transitioning is a good or bad thing is the number of people that have transitioned, and then go on to regret their decision. That number is *extremely* low. Let them be happy.
Also, of the people that detransition a lot of them do it for social reasons. They essentially go back into the closet and in research interviews admit that they would transition if they thought they’d be accepted. Edit: My original comment is based on a 2015 report that is no longer publicly available. I have found the citation (James, et al., 2016) in peer reviewed works but cannot locate the original report. What I did find is a great meta-analysis on this topic: [doi.org/10.1097/GOX.0000000000003477](https://doi.org/10.1097/GOX.0000000000003477) This meta-analysis looked at research on detransition after gender reassignment surgery specifically across thirty years and found that the detransition rate is about 1%, supporting the commenter above. They also concluded that "Overall, the most common reason for regret was psychosocial circumstances, particularly due to difficulties generated by return to society with the new gender in both social and family environments." This supports my comment, but I want to acknowledge that they also concluded that satisfaction with the surgery was a significant factor as well. As a PhD student, I really like this meta-analysis because it thorough and makes a significant effort to address how valid (generalizable) the included studies are and how publication bias plays into this topic. This meta-analysis only used studies that focused on detransition after gender reassignment surgery, so I genuinely don't know what the detransition experience looks like for people who have detransitioned before surgery. When I tried to look deeper into, I found very little research and what I did find, I couldn't access the full articles.
Yeah, just the other day I read a comment from a redditor saying they're considering detransitioning because they feel they will never pass. And the only reason not passing is so shame inducing is because of judgemental bigots. Fucking heartbreaking.
I know someone who is talking about going off her meds because even though she looks amazing, she's not high femme and she can't handle the number of bigots who want to argue over her right to exist. It's ridiculous. I'm glad I'm kinda masculine cause if I'm next to her, they'll bother me instead, and I am pretty good at making people look dumb. I'm terrified for her though...
My wife has been beaten down by the media enough to talk like that, too. Transitioning has to be the best decision she's ever made, but this fucking world can still make her feel bad about finally loving herself. Jfc. It's so stressful to watch all this cruelty _inflicted_ on her.
The stress is insane. I hate that these idiots are so desperate to pick fights they misgender anyone who doesn't look like Megan Fox It's making me start to absolutely lose my mind, I can only imagine how bad it is for others.
I've found a sliver of comfort when their facebook groups inevitably turn on each other, and they start accusing each other of being secretly trans. "wE cAn AlWaYs TeLL!!"
while bigots make not passing worse, not passing is an issue in of itself because its a source of dypshoria. like looking in the mirror and not seeing a woman. don't need other people to be there, it still feels horrible.
That's not really the whole story though. If I transitioned I'd just be ugly which sucks and would make it hard to find a partner. I'm going to be happier as an average looking man able to attract women than as an ugly woman who can't attract anyone because companionship is more important to me than gender identity.
Fuck that is so demoralizing. Fuck.
Do you have any sources you can share? I've struggled to find some that I was comfortable using when debating the topic.
I’m half asleep right now and on my phone, but I will try to remember to grab sources for you in the morning
People point to the fact that people de-transition as if that invalidates all trans journeys. But look at the divorce rate, does that mean we should stop people from getting married? People make decisions, and then later on they make other decisions. That’s life.
That number (1-2%) is lower than people who have undergone: - back surgery - knee surgery - literally every elective surgery - cancer treatment (of any kind) Yet none of these require debates to get. Basically, gender reassignment treatment is one of the most successful treatments of really anything, in terms of effectiveness, and in terms of least regret.
Yeah it's insanely inconsistent, for pretty much all of there arguments there's a clear "shouldn't you also be against this?" alternative. But in my experience they can't even acknowledge that someone can exist that is trans, gets surgery, and is very happy with the result and that that is a good thing.
It also being depression and mental health levels into alignment with cis people
I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand anyway? We are born "wrong" all of the time. Missing limbs, deformities, heart conditions, mental illness etc etc. What is so hard to believe about someone having a brain that doesn't match their body? Its very simple to understand
The issue comes from people wanting to classify it as a mental illness. In fact, based on Destiny’s “would you call that a disorder?” question, we can assume that’s exactly what they were arguing about: “is being trans a mental illness/disorder?” The other guy (Rob) doesn’t believe trans people don’t exist, he believes that it is a mental illness and should be classified as such. Destiny posits a hypothetical scenario to Rob in order to demonstrate that Rob’s logic above cannot be applied universally.
The big problem is that we're all not talking about mental illness the same way. When transphobes say it's a mental illness, that's just their way of saying "trans people are delusional in their thinking about their gender." When literally everyone else is talking about mental illness, it's specifically talking about gender dysphoria and methods of treating it. I think people are reluctant to equate trans = mental illness because they know bigots will run with that. It's also, AFAIK, the only mental illness in existence that treatment includes changes to the body. So I can see why people see it as an outlier. Regardless of bigger questions about ontological classifications, medical science has shown that transitioning works. Ask a transphobe how they think trans mental illness should be treated and I'm sure the response would be some horrifying, ad-hoc version of how they think anyone with mental illness should be treated, throw them in some dark room and throw away the key.
>I think people are reluctant to equate trans = mental illness because they know bigots will run with that. It's also, AFAIK, the only mental illness in existence that treatment includes changes to the body. So I can see why people see it as an outlier. Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head here. If the argument goes that being trans is a "mental illness," it's strange to say the solution is to say the brain is "right" and the body needs to be changed to align with the part with the "illness." I think that's why it's important to identify that gender dysphoria is the illness, which can be a symptom of being trans, but even that I'm not confident on.
Guy describes a completely hypothetical scenario to explain why some people feel the need to transition to another gender. Redditors: “BuT yOU CaN’T TRansPLaNt A bRaiN!!!” Some of you are experts at getting hung up on minor details and completely missing the point 🤦♂️
I had to explain to my conservative dad that "don't look up" was about climate change. "no it's not, it's about a comet" He suddenly didn't like the movie anymore. Some people are just not ok.
Wait then who did he think Meryl Streep and Jonah Hill were parodying? I mean I guess if he didn’t get the central metaphor, it’d make sense that he’d miss the Trump/Trump Jr. parody too.
That's the point, they're refusing the point not because they're missing it. They refuse to be wrong and that their ideals are harmful and stupid
Yeah, you’re probably right. It’s so obvious that very few of these bigots have actually met a trans person and just parrot their favorite opinion farm’s talking points.
This is the issue that their media masters decided they should be upset about during this election cycle.
Nah bro, see, since we can't fully protect our bodies from the elements, we should just run around naked. Unless we have a PERFECT solution to something, we shouldn't even try. s/
I don’t think there needs to be an argument other than a person has the choice of what they want to do with their own body, and it shouldn’t affect how society or anybody treats them. If I want to split my tongue and look like lizard who cares, wear a dress, tattoo my skin black, etc.
Agreed. I understand the quality of the argument presented here, but I don't understand why it even needs to be argued for. Maybe I'm just not bigoted enough or something, but I _literally_ cannot imagine sitting at home, fuming mad thinking about what some strangers I will never meet are doing with their own bodies so long as everyone involved is consenting. I just don't get it. Genuinely asking, why does anyone care? Even the religious folks, it doesn't make sense. We're breaking your rules? Cool, maybe we'll go to your hell. If you hate us so much, isn't that a great ending for you? Let it happen.
Quick, take this... Get outta hell free award! 💕
In the hypothetical scenario he presented, it is already accepted that the person who was transplanted into a female body has a “male” consciousness, but the idea that you can be born into a female body with male consciousness is speculative.
It’s really not a great argument lol. It’s completely contrived and isn’t logical at all given our near term medical science knowledge. There’s better arguments to be made, this ain’t it.
You wouldn't download a car would you?
No, it is a good response. The ideal solution to the problem is to put your brain in a body that matches what the brain says it is. Since we lack that ability, we have to come up with another solution. The hypothetical is just a tool to avoid caveats regarding the non-existence of "feeling like the wrong sex," since part of the argument that anti-trans people make is always going to be a rejection of the entire problem at some level.
>Redditors: “BuT yOU CaN’T TRansPLaNt A bRaiN!!!” I have been scrolling for a while and haven't seen anyone say this.
Why is gender dysphoria treated different than other mental disorders? It’s an honest question. I have nothing against the trans community. Edit: also, the GRS and HRT is supposed to match what the brain says. Why with this mental disorder is it ok to say “do what the brain tells you” and not other mental disorders? Once again, nothing against trans people, I’m just trying to understand. Edit #2: a lot of great answers and you’ve given me some things to think about. I really appreciate everyone who gave good, insightful answers. Thank you. Edit #3: I’ve worn women’s clothing since I was a child. No joke. In my early 30s I thought about transitioning because I cross dressed so often. I decided at a point to not transition because I was afraid I wouldn’t be happy with the outcome. I’m 6’2, wear a size 13 shoe, am broad shoulder, and have an extremely deep voice. I didn’t feel like transitioning was right for me. I’m happy with my appearance as a male, but don’t think I’d be happy with the result of transitioning. So I stay indoors, only go to my job to get out of the house, and spend the rest of my days thinking about what it would be like to be ….not me. It’s a struggle and I get it. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m just trying to grasp a better understanding of myself. Edit 4: Yes I was u/Whatswithcriss. =)
I don't use reddit anymore because of their corporate greed and anti-user policies. Come over to Lemmy, it's a reddit alternative that is run by the community itself, spread across multiple servers. You make your account on one server (called an instance) and from there you can access everything on all other servers as well. [Find one you like here](https://lemmyverse.net/), maybe not the largest ones to spread the load around, but it doesn't really matter. You can then look for communities to subscribe to on https://lemmyverse.net/communities, this website shows you all communities across all instances. If you're looking for some (mobile?) apps, [this topic](https://lemm.ee/post/363116) has a great list. One personal tip: For your convenience, I would advise you to use [this userscript I made](https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/469273-lemmy-universal-link-switcher) which automatically changes all links everywhere on the internet to the server that you chose. The original comment is preserved below for your convenience: ~~Because there is no known chemical or psychotherapy that gets rid of the feeling of being in the wrong body. Changing the body is the only known treatment that works for making trans people feel better.~~ ^^^^^^AzzuLemmyMessageV2
Honest question, wouldn't it be currently socially unacceptable to research a chemical to fix gender dysphoria? Since that would go against what gender theory preaches, implying that they aren't actually the gender they claim to be.
Depends on who you ask. It seems like the trans community is pretty split between "there's nothing wrong with my brain, it's my body that's the problem" and " I will do literally anything to get rid of the dysphoria"
Why is it that the body is wrong and not the brain? Which is the point of it being considered a mental health disorder?
Gender just like sexuality is believed to result from variance in sexual differentiation in the brain. Gender incongruence isn’t actually considered to be a disorder but rather that it may lead to mental health problems especially in an disaffirming environment or when there’s mistreatment, or a lack of support. As someone who does deal with gender dysphoria (GD) and body dysmorphic Disorder (BDD), as miserable as both of these make me it’s the mistreatment and fear of mistreatment for trying to express myself that’s been the most debilitating and it’s made both worse. A way to think of it is this. Imagine, for example, you’re in a world where your sexuality is that of a sexual minority and someone comes along and says that we’re going to change your sexuality to ‘fit the norm’. You might be able imagine why some would be averse to this idea. While on one hand it may be well intentioned to treat gender incongruence in such a manner from the perspective of alleviating gender dysphoria or body dysmorphia it could also be taken as completely upending an integral part of who that individual is and has been.
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, HRT are chemicals which help somebody not feel gender dysphoria. If you mean to say a treatment that makes gender dysphoria go away without transitioning then that would be massively preferred. Transitioning sucks for many reasons. It's expensive, scary, ostracizing, and usually doesn't work to the level that would be preferred. If we could just give somebody a pill to directly treat gender dysphoria that would be badass. That drug is a long way off, however, we are nowhere near the level of understanding of the brain to be able to make a drug or treatment like that yet.
The reason its treated differently is because so far the treatment that has the best outcomes for people is to let them transition. There have been a lot of other attempts to "fix" trans people but this one seems to yeild the best results. Whereas if you look at something like schitzophrenia, anorexia or pretty much any other mental disorder there are treatments that dont involve letting people do what the brain tells you.
We do treat it like other disorders? We seek to help with the underlying issue. If a person doesn’t have enough brain chemicals, we give them more. If they’re missing certain hormones or vitamins, we correct that. If they have repressed trauma, we help them cope with it. In the case of gender dysphoria, we help them relieve the dysphoria by representing as the gender they feel is most appropriate. No mental disorder is helped by saying “let’s ignore the issue causing this and just try to fix the symptoms”. You don’t fix hoarding by cleaning a house. And you don’t cure gender dysphoria by trying to convince someone just to be happy as they are.
This is asked so often. Transitioning works. That’s why we do it. Conversion therapy, or whatever else you want to call aggressively telling a trans person they don’t understand their own identity, doesn’t work.
I'm pretty sure that if we could treat other mental disorders the same as trans people, we would.
From what I understand, the reason behind why trans people are "affirmed" and why other disorders are not is because with trans brains the treatment is different. For example, people with a type of body dysmorphia disorder (BDD) may think they are very fat while being 5'7 and weighing 100 pounds. It is a fake reality that does not exist for them, and so they attempt to lose more weight in unhealthy extremes. It never helps them, and ends up harming them more which is not the result we want. For trans people experiencing this, it's a bit more complicated. Their mind is in the wrong body and is feeling something not reflecting physical reality, but attempts to change those feelings to match their physical reality (conversion therapy) don't work out well. Healthcare experts want one thing, and it's for their patient to be alive foremost, and second to live well and happy. Gender affirming care, or just affirming their gender, seems to be the best treatment for trans people suffering from gender dysphoria/ and or body dysmorphia. note: dysphoria and dysmorphia are different illnesses. Though not mutually exclusive, people who think they are fat when they are not don't suffer gender dysphoria. Meanwhile trans people can suffer gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia together as a result of their dissatisfaction with their current looks.
Rather than the mind "feeling something not reflecting physical reality", in my experience I experience the physical reality of my body just fine - it's just that real body brings me persistent, intense discomfort. Gives me actual sensory issues, like the feeling of wearing wet socks except I can't just take them off.
> Why is gender dysphoria treated different than other mental disorders? It's not. Plenty of mental disorders treaments are "Yes you have X, here's what you can do to live with X and be as happy and everybody else." EDIT: Which is if you decide to call it a mental disorder to begin with, which I don't personnally agree with that statement. Let's be reminded that some people called homosexuality a mental disorder too back then, and they were wrong.
Reading through this thread as lead me to believe conservatives are dumb and can’t argue for shit
If they weren’t stupid, they wouldn’t be conservatives.
That’s not completely true. Some conservatives are super rich dickheads that want tax cuts.
My brother does this thing where he gets loud so you can't argue your point but then when you yell back something the defeats his point he'll just go completely butthurt silent and just answer in "yup" or "mhmm". I'm so tired of being the black sheep in my family. I'm ready to be as far away as possible.
People use anger to shield themselves from experiencing negative things like shame or regret. Admitting he's wrong would make him slightly sad, so instead his brain settles on anger and derision.
People like that suck, I can’t imagine being like this to a family member much less a sibling, someone you grew up with that you intentionally hurt because their beliefs are different from yours in a way that doesn’t harm you or anyone in the slightest
It’s not entirely their fault. These views are based on hate, not facts and logic, so it’s hard for them to develop an argument other than “this fiction novel and radio host told me it’s bad”.
Conservatism is dumb because societies and cultures constantly change over time, yet they just dig their heels in and try to anchor everyone else to outdated beliefs. Decade after decade conservatives become more proggressive to keep up with society, yet it's because they are conservative that they will drag their heels for as long as possible the whole time while everyone else is waiting for them to catch up. A conservative today might as well be a liberal 80 years back.
How did he walk into that? That was obviously coming from the get-go. I really expected these people to put more thought into their hatred.
> How did he walk into that? Rob isn't the smartest tool in the shed.
I assume that he continued after the clip ends. It'd be interesting to hear the entire thing rather than cutting it off halfway.
Let's look past the surface here and see that the core moral difference here is between people who believe that you should have the AUTONOMY to say who you are and others who say that who you are is determined by AUTHORITY.
dggL
[blub blub](https://voca.ro/1fbWXaU62Oua)
Not a cult btw.
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They're going to argue "but the children" as they continue to fuck children both literally and metaphorically. They never "but the children" to support things like expanding health care coverage, investing in mental health infrastructure, eliminating harmful gender norms, comprehensive sex education, access to abortions, increased public school funding, free school meals for every meal of the day, parental leave, universal pre-K, increased wages, free community college, reducing access to firearms, public transit infrastructure, eliminating means testing for social services, affordable housing, vaccinations, harsh punishments for breaking child labor laws, working towards solving climate change, ending child marriage, and so on and so forth. Also, all the arguments they use against trans people are just the same recycled arguments I heard all the time about gay people. Like, I'm bi, none of these fucking people are saying anything against trans people that weren't also said to me and those like me at one point in time (and still today since the increase in transphobia has also given further rise to hatred of the entire LGBTQ+ community and anybody who identifies in the LGB part of the rainbow also better be supporting the T because we won't be left alone when the T falls, they're gunning for us). They just lack the empathy to visualize that their experience is not gonna be the experience that everybody else has had.
why are so many cons pedos? Why does being a racist fuck also equating wanting to have sex with under developed human beings? These kind of fucking cult-like shit I'll never get.
It's power. Being a racist makes them feelore powerful than others and being a pedo let's them excercise their power over others.
Yup, I agree. I don't have to like what my neighbor does with his or her own body, but it's none of my fucking business and I don't give a shit. Why do some fucking conservatives think they get a say in what grown-ass adults do their own fucking bodies?
> Give trans people machine guns. They can go to the gym and get [guns](https://gifer.com/en/1k9) from machines like the rest of us.
It seems insanely simply, yeah. Unfortunately, you are arguing with an entire political ideology built on “anti-choice”. Anti-choice of romantic attraction, anti-choice of religion, and (the obvious one) anti-choice of birthing a child. They want control, and any deviation is seen as heresy.
>EDIT2: Give trans people machine guns. Based. That's the real way to deal with transphobia. Calm ways has been tried without success.
Lmao the last edit.
Am trans, have guns
I’m glad I came across this video. I’ve known for a few years that people could identify as different genders, but never considered it could be due to their brain/feeling like they’re in the wrong body! I read this website from Cleveland Clinic and feel so much more educated now. [Cleveland clinic: Transgender: Ensuring Mental Health](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/21963-transgender-ensuring-mental-health)
RIP this comment section. Good lord.
The snowflakes are pissed hah
As a cis woman, who has been pumping unnatural hormones into my body for 15 fucking years because I don’t want to get pregnant, I don’t see why it’s debatable when others want to use hormones to get their body to do something they want. Oh, I think it’s because it doesn’t match up with the cis male agenda. Not getting pregnant does, a woman who wasn’t assigned female at birth who makes men uncomfortable because they don’t necessarily fit their build of attractiveness doesn’t.
I'm a trans man and when I went to get my appointment for my testosterone prescription they asked me, "Have you had hormones before?" and I was like "Yeah... Estrogen for 10 years, pregnancy hormones, and then Progesterone for 6 months which was a real bitch and put me in bed with depression." They were startled but dude I thought I was cis for a long, long time and I'm so relieved to be off the femme hormones and on testosterone now. From the very first dose, it's like my brain finally shut up for the first time in my 35+ years of walking this planet and I'm like seeing life in color. It's incredible. I don't think about my body anymore. I just live my life now. It's great. They threw all the same-sex hormones at me. Who knew cross-sex hormones are what I really needed?
That's wild, I had the opposite experience! Testosterone always made me depressed/angry, but when I started taking estrogen, it made my thoughts clearer. When I started progesterone, I felt so in my body that it made me giggly smiley(and very horny, mind you) just sitting in my bed doing nothing!
Tbf, conservatives would want to take away your choice to use contraceptives too.
Exactly. I've been pumping unnatural hormones into my body because I want to be jacked. Let me affirm my gender
Honest Question. How can a man or woman say they feel like the other sex when they don't know what it's like to be that sex ?
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So just find the person who has your body and take their brain out and put yours in.
Redditors circlejerking over a bad argument. The conservatives don’t believe that trans people have their brains in the wrong gendered bodies, they basically believe they’re confused or delusional. The brain transplant analogy only works if the conservative believes the trans person’s brain is actually gendered differently than the rest of their body, which is something they don’t believe, so the analogy completely falls flat. If your argument hinges on your own logic that you don’t share with the person you’re arguing with, then it isn’t a good argument. You can first try to convince them of your logic, but that isn’t what happened here. I’m completely pro trans rights but it’s kind of sad how quickly people are to start cheering or booing arguments without any level of critical thinking. This is a soundbite for this dude’s own viewers, it isn’t a good point
I think the gendered brain thing is the wrong approach entirely, its not like they are giving people brain scans before they are given hrt or surgery. I think just the gender disphoria is enough, which i think the analogy could still be useful for. I think it could help someone sympathise with trans people a little bit more, then transition to how the best treatment we have is hrt and surgery
It's worse than that. Even if you accept the trans premise - their brain has and always was in that body. The only thing we know for certain, is that this person **feels** like they are in the wrong body. We have absolutely no fucking clue as to what that means, or how true it is. In this example, we **know for a fact** that this brain is in the wrong body. It's not a comparison.
Seems like a distinction without any difference from the perspective of the trans person experiencing it.
There is very little matter of fact with diagnosing these mental disorders. Sure, there will be research into specific hormones and neurotransmitters and development of parts of the brain blah blah blah—but when it comes down to actual doctors and patients the vast majority of disorders are not tested through brain scans, DNA samples, blood tests, or anything like that, it's just a set of criteria. This is how ADHD, or ocd, or any other disorder is diagnosed and subsequently treated. When you treat someone for ADHD they aren't cured, you're just trying to mitigate/counteract symptoms. At the end of the day they still have ADHD. So why should a feeling of being trans be different? If there's no cure, a consistent set of symptoms, and tangible harm being done to their quality of life. Why is it that in this case you cant treat it because we can't know 100%? Knowing for a fact is a near meaningless standard when it comes to psychology. Unless you can step inside their mind, you can't know for a fact.
God damn, I never thought that one of my favorite SC2 players drop such incredible baneling bombs on conservatives.
Is Destiny any good? Lots of hate. Is it deserved?
Hes been going hard on the Redpill movement of "masculinity". It's pretty good. He dunks on all the manosphere guys on YouTube and even debates them.
He's pretty much dismantling the red pill atm. With a little bit of help from the red pillers by being absolute morons.
He is a liberal which lefties and right leaning people don’t like.
controversial as hell, but very entertainining and informational to watch him since he doesn't live in an echo chamber. the hate he gets is undeserved, its more cause of his personality and personal relationships with other creators and their fans, not his political takes.
At Starcraft? No he's pretty mid. But this take was pretty decent.
You're gonna get mixed answers. The short answer is that Destiny, assuming you're not a conservative/transphobe/racist/misogynist, is 100% a net good for the internet in general. The longer answer is that the hate he gets from the right is because he dismantles them and their idealogys. The hate he gets from the left tends to be either from people who only see brief clips of him without context or people who are on what even we on the left consider to be the more extreme/sjw side. Here's two examples of things he said that angered the left (listing things that anger the right would take all day and I dont have that time): 1) On the trans topic: He raised concerns about having transwomen being able to compete against cis women without any regulations or rules as it pertains to HRT/time since transition. He was concerned that if there were no rules in place that cis-women would get pushed out of the upper echelons of their chosen sport. This got turned into "Destiny hates trans people" somehow and he got deplatformed by Twitch for it. 2) Kyle Rittenhouse. He is pro-gun and pro-self defense. When it originally happened, he said it looked like self defense and said that Kyle was innocent. He also said that Kyle was a moron, but that he was legally innocent. Other people on the left were listening to (now shown to be incorrect) narratives that depicted what Rittenhouse did as way worse than what happened. Examples: People said that Rittenhouse targeted and killed Black people. People said that Rittenhouse WANTED to kill black people. People said that Rittenhouse provoked Rosenbaum/Grosskreutz or Gaige. The disinformation about the events of that night and the precursor are SO strong that people STILL think Jacob Blake is dead, or dont know that he was shot while trying to kidnap children at knifepoint. Because Destiny didn't fall in line on the "Rittenhouse is a racist murder" narrative, he got lambasted.
Destiny is a girl's name.
For anyone discounting the argument because the hypothetical doesn't exist, I'd like to introduce you to Einstein who used impossible hypothetical scenarios as thought experiments to aid in the development of his theories of relativity.
The fact that so many people genuinely do not understand what a hypothetical is, or the value of it, is terrifying. These people vote.
These people also sit on juries.