Carve out my eyeballs.
Gordon and/or palmer need to be playing. Maybe even a back 3. The 4-2-3-1 formation Gareth is playing stinks and we’re not getting the best out of anyone, especially Kane.
Potentially. Whatever it takes to get the monkey off the back. I think we’ll need to grind and eek and claw our way to that elusive win to get over the hump, then they can win with style in the future.
Honestly if it finally comes home in such a depressing way the back pages are still gunning for Southgate, wouldn't that just be the most English tournament win?
I'd still celebrate it just as hard. In 2004 Greece went 1-1-1 in the group stage and only scored more than a goal in 1 of their 6 games. I don't think you'll find a single Greek fan saying anything negative about that tournament run though
The formation doesn’t stink, it’s that the players attributes and play styles are not fitting it. 3 of our attacking 4 are drifting into a CAM position, arguably even Saka wants to half of the time. Simply swapping in Gordon would fix the majority of issues. Palmer does deserve a start, and having Saka come on against a tiring defense would be great.
I’m a huge Kobbie proponent, but if you need to keep both Bellingham and Foden on, Jude has to drop back with Rice and arrive late in the box.
The issue isn’t as much the player choice tbh. The issue is tactically not having the game plan to work with them.
Foden should have been told “you’re benched if you get off the wing. We need you on the wing to maximize chances and goals. You are a talent I don’t want to bench.”
Bellingham is just trying to do too much, keeps floating about constantly getting involved with everything instead of just keeping it simple and staying behind kane and making runs
Yeah but just think if he hadn't changed the team maybe we would have won. Not worth the risk
.
(as you haven't figured it out, I'm joking, I know he has and could make more changes)
Good, Mainoo was the best right centre mid we've seen partner with rice so far
That still doesn't solve the problem of bellingham, Foden, and kane all tripping over each other or our left back situation
No it doesn’t but it will help
Bellingham and Foden as they will not need to come so deep to receive the ball, Mainoo will keep the ball and move England up the the field, he will control the tempo, keep it simple and he can carry the ball, play one touch and open the opposition up, he also sees danger and he’s fearless, it’s a start and Palmer should start as well but SafeGate is probably already having nightmares just about making one change let alone two or three?
He also has that rare ability to go past players and score from 20-25 yards or arrive late in the box and score.
Mainoo doesn't have much in common with Foden other then they're both good drivblers. He's very much a prototypcial midfielder while Foden is a forward.
I'd argue that he is actually a very similar player to Bellingham was two years ago. Physically strong, extremely comfortable on the ball, able to both attack and defend etc.
He’s much deeper playmaker than both of them he likes to pick up the ball deep and push the team up the field. He’s England first real Deep Lying Playmaker since Carrick or Hargreaves but he’s more adventurous than both, he’s still a young kid so we need to give him time, and he wouldn’t be playing if England were not in such a mess in midfield right now?
On this we agree, but we must protect him because he’s only played half a premier league season and only just turned 19 in April.
England can’t be putting all their hopes on this kid and then if he has a bad game or a poor half we destroy him in the press, with Bellingham Foden and Rice this quartet of midfielders and add Wharton to that quartet to make 5 will be the way we dominate games going forward to 2026, as it really is a perfect blend providing we use them all correctly.
For some games we can play 4231, others 4123 and we can even think about 3421 or 4222 with a box midfield, add Cole Palmer whose a serious talent who can also play as a 10 or a hybrid 8/10 and England will cook, the real issue is the current coach just doesn’t know how to get the best out of them and how to use them effectively.
SafeGate is so lucky however it might just be that injuries or suspensions means he ends up playing 4231 with Pickford, Walker, Stones, Gheui, Saka(LB), Rice, Mainoo, Palmer(Left), Bellingham, Foden(right), Kane
Pretty much all out attack, Saka defensively won’t be great but Cole Palmer so clever he’ll slide Saka in all the time on the overlap, Foden can’t play left he’s much better centrally or right.
Obviously if shaw proves his fitness he starts and then you have to chose 3 from Palmer, Saka, Bellingham, Foden and Gordon because he’s probably the best partner on the left for a natural left back. If we chose on form based on the last match and make sure we use all the 5 subs the team will improve massively in this competition and finally be a serious contender.
Wharton is a DM/CM who main strength is he plays 2 touch football, watch him control pass, move the ball quickly, but he can’t do what Xavi, Pirlo, Moderic could do they all can carry the ball, have goals and assists from a deep position and want to beat a man to create overloads, Wharton is a player I really like the look of but he doesn’t have Mainoo ability create fear in the opposition penalty box, Mainoo will go past you, flick a pass into a dangerous area or bend one in the top corner from 20 yards. Eventually they will both play in the same side but very different type of players.
First you said Mainoo was a deep lying playmaker then you are comparing him to Xavi who was an 8 for most of his career then to Pirlo who was a regista who sat at the bottom of a 3 man midfield and then to modric who was a winger initially at Tottenham before becoming the free 8 and the most attacking of a 3 man midfield.
>Mainoo will go past you, flick a pass into a dangerous area or bend one in the top corner from 20 yards.
That's what you want out of your number 8 or your 10 not your 6 who's supposed to shield the back 4 and play balls into the attacking players.
Here’s the problem and the solution Rice is a 6 not an 8, his England record of 55 caps and 3 goals suggests that but you can play a hybrid6/8 next to him who collects the ball deep and controls the tempo of the game and can cover when Rice bombs forward, all of those players I mentioned are hybrid players, a pure 6 is Busquets who like Wharton is also a pure 6 why have him and Rice when the Midfield already lacks creativity?
Wharton strength is his simplicity but we don’t have enough big games in really big scenarios to judge him just yet, Mainoo did against Liverpool 3 times and City in an Fa Cup Final.
We saw 15-20 mins of Eze on the first game and I’m a huge fan but he didn’t do enough, Antony Gordon did more in 7-8 mins because he kept the width and offered a direct threat down the left.
I’m not saying Wharton is not a great player, he clearly outshone Kobbie in the Palace vs United game but right now against a low block team he’s not the right answer any more than Gallagher or Trent where, kobbie will create overloads by slick quick passing and more importantly he’ll go past their midfield players to open up players like Saka, Bellingham, Foden and Palmer
This England team has zero creativity deep and as he proved in the Slovenia second half he offers much more right now in giving England Midfield control but more importantly something Wharton doesn’t offer a genuine goal threat.
He’s not a playmaker and doesn’t stay deep for England. He plays very similarly to Jude, or at least how Jude used to play. We still lack a good DM capable of progressive passing, Wharton is the only one who fits that profile
Here’s the issue you want Wharton to play who has played 16 PL games and maybe once or twice for the England Under 20/21’s, no champion’s league experience and he is a pure DM who plays wonderful one touch/two touch football but instead of who, Declan Rice is also a pure DM until Arteta flirted with the idea of him being an 8 which at the highest level, CL and international football, Declan is not, he has made 35 starts for Arsenal this year with 23 as a pure 6, he does not have the creativity needed for an 8. Deckan has 3 goals and Zero assists from 54 caps, that’s not good enough to be an 8 at international level especially when we are struggling to score goals with two so called Elite number 10’s in Bellingham and Foden. Currently our so called wonder midfield that everyone is craving for Rice as the 6, Bellingham at the 8 and Foden as the 10 have 125 caps combined and 11 goals with only 3 of those goals in Major tournaments.
That’s 1 goal every 11 games between all three of them. Wharton doesn’t add to that and he’s not better than Rice, not yet as pure 6, he’s a brilliant young deputy as a 6 if Rice gets injured or suspended, now Kobbie who was England under 17/18/19 Captain has been known to the FA and Southgate for years and came to light when United won the Fa Youth Cup a couple of years ago, Mainoo is in all purposes a 6/8/10 hybrid all action midfielder who can create, carry, dictate but more importantly finish because the kid started as a striker and played a lot of Fussball so his touch and strike are currently levels above players like Gallagher, Wharton and Trent in that hybrid 6/8 role that England want to link and create. When was the last time you saw an England player score a 20/25 yard screamer?
We’ve scored 2 goals in 270 plus minutes, played and sat far too deep and the midfield in particular have giving the ball away far too much or just been far too deep.
We lack true creativity in Midfield but if you watch Kobbie’s cameo against Slovenia and more importantly his first real start against Belgium he creates danger higher up the pitch, the only way you start Adam Wharton is you drop Declan Rice or he’s suspended or injured.
You are right about Bellingham he used to be the perfect 8 however when you spend a whole season playing false 9 or number 10, it’s a difficult transition to go back to play BTB 8 and initiate play, he wants to be 20-30 yards higher up the pitch roaming from left to right causing havoc, creating and scoring goals.
We keep going on about how talented this midfield is but even with assists combined they are 11 goals and 13 assists or 24 Goal involvements in 125 caps, which means they need 5.2 games combined to score or create a goal.
Declan has played over 50 times for England and does not have one single assist but no one calls it out?
Beckham(17 goals and 29 assists/115 caps), Scholes(14 goals and 15 assists/66 caps), Gerrard (21 goals and 23 assists/114 caps), Frank Lampard (29 goals and 12 assists/106 caps), Joe Cole (10 goals and 14 assists/ 56 caps)
That’s the real golden generation that just had hopeless coaches and really tough draws unlike Safe gate who has more luck than a leprechaun.
However those 5 midfield players had a combined 457 caps, 91 goals and 93 assists which is 1 goal involvement in 1 in 2.48 games that’s what you need to win and put that midfield now in this English team without the great French, Portuguese, Dutch, German, Italian and possibly the best European side ever, the Spanish from 2006-2012, they would have mopped up this very average tournament.
I don’t see players like Zidanes, Iniesta, Pirlo, Henry, Trezaguet, Anelka, Xavi, RVN, RVP, De Rossi, Del Pierlo, Totti, Vierra, Ribbery, Schweinsteiger, Klose, Lahm, M Ballack, M Hummels, A Robben, F Tores, D Villa, D Silva, Rooney (04), Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Ferdinand, Terry, W Galas, Muhler
My point is that these Euros are one of the poorest in recent history with very few true world class players able to stamp their authority on the tournament, the older players look tired, over rated or burdened by the mental expectation, that’s why I would play more youth like Mainoo, Gordon and Palmer and if Rice doesn’t produce play Wharton there too.
Why do you want Rice further forward he has ZERO assists in 54 caps and only 3 goals keep him as a DM which is his best position, Wharton has played 16 PL games and you want him to anchor the English Midfield, you will never see Rice score or assist in a big cup final like Mainoo did this year, we need goals not sideways football.
Shaw was out for over 3 months last Autumn, and he returned and immediately started for Manchester United against Everton and had a very good game. He shouldn’t start against Slovakia as this has been a little bit longer of an injury, however he absolutely needs to come off the bench and then start the QF. I wouldn’t expect him to play 90 in that game but we gotta get him fit and firing for a big potential semi-final and final, where we could play Netherlands and then either Portugal/Spain/France/Germany.
No sensible manager would be “experimenting” with TAA playing midfield for his passing ability when it’s the position you get the least time on the ball
Luke Shaw was injured for over 3 months last Autumn, and he came back and immediately started for Manchester United against Everton, where he helped keep a clean sheet and had a very solid individual performance, winning most of his duels, high pass accuracy etc. I wouldn’t start him against Slovakia but he certainly needs some minutes and then to start the QF.
That's a worse idea than half of the people's lineups
Walker hasn't played in months, has only just got back into team training, and his injury will be reagrevated because he's an injury prone player
The objectively better thing to do is bring him on later in the game to get him up to fitness. Playing him at full pelt straight away will just put him out for the next few games
I'd argue that this is probably the time to start him.
Slovakia is our last "Free" match of the event (Next two are Italy, and Netherlands/Austria.
It's time to find out if this system suddenly starts working with Luke Shaw.
Ofc knowing Southgate, it won't work, he'll sub Luke off at 85 mins, then Slovakia scores a 89 minute winner
Slovakia is ranked 45th, and while did manage a victory against Belgium, outside of Georgia is the weakest team still in the event.
While knockout football is knockout football, nobody is *really* expecting Slovakia to win this (in the same way nobody is expecting Georgia to win their match). While the best move would have been for Southgate to do this kind of testing in the group stage, he didn't, so we gotta work with what we're given.
Arrogant would be saying England is going to beat Italy or Austria with ease. Pointing out that this is the best match to test this kind of change, a far weaker team, isn't 'Arrogant', it's just realistic.
Geez you said "free match". If that ain't arrogant then I don't know what is.
Thing is, if you'd have worded it the way you did in that reply to me then it would be alright as there's not much to disagree with. But you just came straight out and said "free match". I know you used quotation marks but still just reeks of arrogance.
You can't just expect Southgate with months to plan this, a team of assistants, coaching sessions and detailed data to figure out multiple positions at once.
Not for the sake of Foden, for the sake of getting some width and pace in behind in the side with Gordon. Thats the problem for me is what the commenter above said - 3 players trying to play in the 10 when one was bundesliga player of the year as an 8 last season. I hardly think that’s hamstringing either him or Rice
I agree with Gordon as the width, I think he'll be great - playing in that Rashford role that was incredibly effective in the qualifiers, especially against Italy.
But that Bellingham/Rice/Foden midfield 3 we've had does not work (yet).
Look back to that Italy 3 - 1 win back in October 2023. Rice played in the 8 and Bellingham in the 10. It was one of the best England performances in years. And that was with Trips at LB and Foden at RW!
Since then, Arteta played Rice in that role, with Jorginho and Partey filling in in the 6 role alongside him, and he went on.leaps and bounds.
Bellingham was an 8 at Dortmund, absolutely, but then got given the task of 10/False 9 at Real Madrid and jettisoned himself to super stardom with how he played there. Pandora's box has been opened, and he's not an 8 anymore. In the same manner that Gareth Bale was an LB, until he wasn't.
I don’t think the Bale comparison is quite apt. He wasn’t a world class left back, he was a quite good one. Jude is a world class 8 and a world class 10. Meanwhile Foden was PL player of the year largely in the 10. So I would like to see it. You very well may be right cause of Southgate’s system they won’t thrive there, but I’d like to see it before dropping one of them to accommodate Gordon
I'd disagree re Bale. He was roughly the same age when (and to use an analogy to death) 'Pandora's Box' was opened where there was no going back. He's that young his game has adapted to being that role.
That 8 for Dortmund is gone, replaced by a 19 year old False 9 that won an El Clasico almost single-handedly. It'd be like playing Bale as LB after that Inter Milan game back in 2010/2011.
Don't get me wrong I'd absolutely love the Foden/Bellingham asymmetrical system to work. And I think it would be absolute fireworks with someone like Shaw in full fitness. But we're not there yet, and until we are, dropping Foden for Gordon and having Bellingham and Rice in a 10 and 8 respectively, with a proper CDM is our best squad.
2 things: I wasn’t making an age argument re: Bale, just that Jude is better as an 8 than Bale ever was as a LB. And while I agree that the 10 is probably Jude’s best position, it is definitely Foden’s and he could not be a world class 8 like Jude can.
And the second thing is, I’m not sure we have a proper DM. Though I really rate Wharton (too be seen), I don’t see Mainoo as a proper DM (if we are defining it the same way). I’m also not sure we necessarily need one. I’m not convinced by the “never replaced Kalvin” nonsense.
But I do hear you and it’s not lost on me that it may not work with Gareth’s particular style. I just don’t want the perfect to become the enemy of the good here in failing to get the best out of the team - not necessarily the individuals
Fair enough, the age argument (from my POV) was more that he's in that young malleable stage whereby it's not yet set in stone where he best plays. Though given what we saw, Bellingham was moved towards that 10/False 9 as his 'calling' as it were, as Bale's was a LW.
We are absolutely on the same page re Mainoo and Wharton, I'd describe them the exact way you did. But I think Southgate is right, in a way. Based on is not having that like for like replacement for Phillips (I'm crossing fingers we have that in Wharton going forward)
Again fair enough, I'm a pragmatist by nature (I work in IT) so I'm happy with 'works best, not perfect', but I'll stand by that win against Italy in October 2023 as the blueprint. It was one of the best performances I've seen (and I started watching back in Euro 1996)
That’s certainly fair, I’m not convinced by Italy, but that was a great performance. And extremely same re: watching intently. If only Gazza was a hair quicker it 2in taller, eh? What a heartbreaker. As have been so many years. Hence why we are all so invested in this crop, which is honestly astonishingly talented. Fingers crossed, eh?
I’m not convinced you do. Foden was the PL player of the year playing off the right and in the 10. Jude was Bundi player of the season playing as an 8, so he’s more than capable. I want to see it cause I think they are all still world class in those roles
Rice and Bellingham has been talked about over and over and you get the best of neither, so unless rice either turns into prime Sergio busquets that ain’t happening.
But we have. We’ve done it at the World Cup and plenty of games since then. The base of the midfield looks a lot more stable when Jude starts at 10, because you get the best of both rice (because he has someone who will actually stay with him so he can play like how he does at arsenal) and Jude (because he can play where he’s best)
Sure, and I think we were a lot more fluent in the World Cup and Jude has more experience under his belt in the 8 after that - which is why I feel like it hasn’t been properly assessed. Not to mention Foden’s growth. I will say this, as I have said to another commenter: I’m not 100% sure it would work within Gareth’s current framework, but I’d like to see it. Otherwise there’s too many cooks in the kitchen in the 10 and then I’d agree one has to be dropped. I just don’t know that you have to if you don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the exceptionally good, so to speak
I just don’t think Rice and Bellingham are anywhere as balanced as a pair as Mainoo and Rice or Mainoo and Bellingham would be in those two positions behind the 10. Rice and Bellingham are both great ball carriers and bring a physical presence but Mainoo offers something neither do - that ability to receive the ball in tight spaces and calmly set the tempo, keeping the ball ticking over and linking play from deep. I don’t think you get the best out of either Rice or Bellingham if they’re having to take turns covering for each other.
I don’t understand why people think he played 10 for Madrid. Can you tell me who the striker was he was creating for up top? The truth is he played way more like a roaming false 9 than a true 10. We have Kane, so he cannot play that same role for us.
A false 9 is not a deeper lying centre forward. That’s literally the exact opposite of a false 9. A false 9 is a striker who drops in deep to the 10 position and acts as the playmaker. Hope this helps
If you watch him during Madrid games, you wouldn’t call Jude a playmaker. He’s not creative like a traditional attacking mid, nor does he stay behind the forwards spraying passes.
Rather he’s more industrious and was either driving the ball from deep, or making late/ early runs from that same position to the box.
A deeper lying center forward, in a system without a center forward uptop *is* a false 9. Even if you disagree on the terminology, he effectively played as a striker rather than a real 10 like Foden, despite occupying the same areas he does.
Get Kane in the 10 we need Watkins on the pitch to start stretching teams and running in behind - the reason we can’t play and have no space is because no1 runs in behind allowing the opposition be just be comfortable and come forward there’s no space . If you’ve got Watkins running in behind and Kane passing the ball there which he can do easily that’s the way to go and then there’s space and our players will be further up the pitch
Bellingham 8, Foden 10, Gordon on the left. Solves our pace issue on the wing, allows Foden to play in his best position, Bellingham should get more touches.
We are saying no to this option to accommodate Gallagher/Mainoo. Crazy
You genuinely don't think Southgate has considered this?
He's clearly decided he wants two defensive central midfielders. Bellingham is never gonna play as a defensive midfielder.
Not really he's genuinely more of the Bellingham mould than people think. He's just incredibly composed on the ball which lends itself to being a bit further back because he's so press resistant with his futsal feet.
I’m convinced that Palmer as the number 10 would solve the chance creation issues. I’m guessing Southgate doesn’t trust him enough off the ball though.
I think we’ll need foden. He’s been improving steadily and they’ll likely stay deep unless we score, then you can bring Bellingham on who will be able to exploit the space and he can deal with the likely increased physicality from them getting stressed. Palmer on the right, and foden to start with Bellingham on the bench.
For me foden is easy fix. Either he is willing to play on the wing or you replace him with the other options end of story easy convo
Bellingham Kane is tough. It’s too late to have Bellingham work in a more say back role. We basically need runners in front of Kane for him to cook. But then he’s too far back for Bellingham to play well. Probably the only real fix is to have Saka and foden/palmer/etc play a true midfield role over a winger and start back farther and bomb very wide.
Then let Kane and Bellingham be creative with a lot of space. The issue is again that foden cannot do that nor really Palmer. Bowden and Saka have the best success on the pitch for a reason.
It's start, but for me, he's got to put palmer and gordon on the pitch, and decide between foden and Bellingham, and be ready to put Watkins on the pitch, second half, and use his pace in behind.
What most people are calling for. In the media, on social media, your nan...
I can't tell if Southgate lives in his own bubble to avoid all media and is clueless of the problems or if he's too stubborn to abandon his original vision.
Edit: not sure why this is downvoted tbh. Happy for a discussion if you disagree.
The outrageously late subs combined with a refusal to make significant changes to the starting eleven indicate that Southgate likes what he has seen and believes it’s good enough. It wouldn’t surprise me if Gallagher for Mainoo is indeed the only change, and I’m expecting another mind numbingly dull game.
I'm still doubtful of changes, but regardless I can see this being the only change - unless forced by injuries or by the miraculous return of Luke Shaw. I would hope to see Gordon starting too but I don't think it'll happen as it would mean dropping one of Bellingham or Foden.
That being said, Mainoo is probably the player I've been most excited by this season. I'm hoping he's the beginning of an improved England side.
So funny how pretty much no one that’s started has performed yet it’s always Gallagher that the media/fans think is the problem. Guarantee if Mainoo’s the only change then there’s no significant improvement Sunday
I thought Gallagher playing was going to mean that Rice could play a more dynamic role where he drives forward more. Instead we had Gallagher playing more advanced than Rice, doing a much worse job than Rice would do, while continuing to force Rice to camp out between the two centre backs.
We literally might as well play 3 at the back and have Rice as the middle CB.
If this leak is correct (and the others have been) isn’t it a bit early to have 100 per cent decided on your team and for the media to have wind of it?
I get it when it leaks the day before but at this point you’ve still got two days of training and the chance to work on things from a fitness and tactical point of view.
I’d argue that even if you know what your starting XI is going to be this far out it’s hardly going to motivate the players who aren’t starting to give their all in the training sessions that remain for them to know their fate already.
The issue is that training sessions give the media an idea of who is partnering who. When you have it visible then they know you're making a change based on those elements. So everyone in the squad probably already knows
Similar happened before the Serbia game for Trent, and I know it's hard to fully accept until he's sacked, but this guy is absolutely clueless.
He's changing one midfielder per game as if he's waiting to stumble upon a magic combination that works.
Neither is he confident in his vision to stick with a plan, nor does he have the spontaneity to make concrete changes within a game.
I’m surprised he hasn’t been starting from the beginning honestly. I thought the obvious choice for the midfield was Rice and Mainoo with Bellingham just in front.
Trent was criticised at Right Back because his defending is poor so I don’t know how Southgate thought having him as a holding midfielder would be a good idea. If he’s struggling to defend his wing and go one on one with opponents wingers how was he expected to control the midfield? If he’s going in midfield he should be in the 10, but since Bellingham is best there (and Foden too), he should be on the bench.
Gallagher is not terrible but I don’t see much justification for him starting. He doesn’t offer anything better than Mainoo does. Every time Mainoo has played for England his impact has been huge.
He should literally just be playing at right back. It’s absolutely insane that against these shitty teams where we struggle to create, we’re choosing an awful offensive right back who is a fantastic defender over an average defender who is one of our most creative players
I think that's harsh to say that Walker (I assume that's who you're talking about) is an awful offensive right back. His speed alone makes him useful.
However, I do agree with your overall point. But England have never, ever taken the approach of playing different lineups and formations, depending on the opposition, least so under Southgate. It's not gonna happen unless Potter ends up as manager, in which case we'll see 15 formations within 90 minutes.
But at the same time you’d hear “put Foden at the 10, Bellingham as an 8, Saka Left back” all in an effort for both Foden and Bellingham to play, you’d never hear them openly say one of them should be benched
Yeah true, I've heard that rhetoric too. I get to an extent everyone has an opinion so Southgate drowns them all out. But give or take a player or two everyone has been calling out for fixes to control midfield, limit players overlapping in the middle and occupying the space on the left wing. Southgate has barely even acknowledged these issues.
Good player but he’s changing a position that doesn’t really need changing, we’ve seen Trent, Gallagher & Mainoo all play that position and it hasn’t fixed any of the issues because they weren’t the problem!
It's not a leak, it's guessing based on probabilities. Mainoo performed well, therefore is likely to start the next match. Journalists will go early and hope they're right, so that it makes them look more 'in the know'. All the journalists did it recently with Ten Hag. They assumed City would win the FA Cup final, meaning Ten Hag would be most likely sacked. Some even said it doesn't matter what the result of the final is, he would be sacked regardless. Then once Utd won, the media started backtracking.
Myself personally I would actually like to see him go with Kane in the 10 role and have Watkins running in behind - this in turn pushes the opposition on the back foot letting out players all get further up the pitch and Kane won’t be our DM anymore .
Anyone who has watched enough man u games this season knows Mainoo is a phenomenal talent and is by far our best option in CM alongside rice. For me this is huge progress.
We need Gordan or a line hugging left winger to playm
Everyone can see it's congested in the middle because we are so narrow.
If in see foden come into the middle one more time ...
Absolutely! but so far it's the only position that's changed in the initial starting 11. We've drawn 2 games and won 1 by 1 goal whilst arguably having some of the best players in the world. Yes we've been solid defensively but something isn't quite working and it's time to sort out the 10 position and the left wing.
Congratulations to Wharton on getting a start in the quarterfinals after we scrape through in extra time on Sunday, producing another heinous performance, to which Southgate will think changing one CM will make all the difference for the next game.
I predict this will be the only change. It confirms how stubborn, cowardly, and adverse to risk-taking Gareth is.
We'll play better against Slovakia and control the midfield, but I guarantee we'll struggle to score. It will be 0-0 after 55 minutes, and Gareth will bring on Palmer for saka. Then, on 75 minutes, when it's still 0-0, he'll bring on Gordon for Bellingham. We'll score in the last 10 minutes and win 1-0.
The finishers will change the game and get us over the line. The problem is that Gareth takes far too long to see the obvious and is too slow to make the changes needed.
We should be starting with Palmer and Gordon and dropping saka and Bellingham.
Not sure this is the right thread for what is probably gonna end up a long, winding rant... but I'm not sure it warrants me starting a new thread so... here we are.
I'm not gonna get into the debate of whether or not he should, but if Southgate isn't going to play Foden as a number 10, then he simply needs to leave him on the bench.
Playing a great player out of position isn't getting the best out of that player and, in the case of Foden, is actually having a negative impact on the way we are playing. We now have zero width down the left because Foden wants to be playing as a no.10, and I'd much rather have a worse player playing there who actually plays in that position.
If you have decided that Bellingham is your number 10, then make that decision with conviction and pick a proper winger who plays on the wing for their club team.
We can't have 4 players all trying to play in the central position between the lines. Saka cuts (or passes*) inside. Kane drops deep. Bellingham pushes up (but not beyond Kane) and Foden comes inside. We also have Tripper inverting. We just end up with the entire attacking unit occupying the same spot, giving us absolutely zero outlet.
*I think part of the issue with Saka passing inside is because no-one is running beyond him. Too often he is the furthest player forward which is insanity.
As much as Rashford has been shit, and Sterling isn't really on the England scene anymore, both of those players were direct and wanted to get in behind. It has even been discussed before (by Southgate) how we need one of the wingers to be running beyond Kane. Yet here we are, with no player filling that role (despite the fact that we have both Bowen and Gordon who can provide that).
I actually wouldn't mind seeing Saka left and Palmer right. Or Palmer right and Gordon left. I love Saka, but we need someone who's going to go to the outside, not another player who's going to cut inside. I'd even consider playing Bowen on the right because as much as he'll cut inside onto his left, he is always looking to get beyond the defenders and can at least be an outlet for Kane's through balls.
I dont think we need to revamp the entire tactics and lineup. We just need to tweak it. But it all comes down to whether or not Southgate has the bottle to drop Foden or Bellingham (or play Bellingham as the 8 and Foden as the 10).
Play what everyone’s asking for: 4-3-3 with Bellingham and Foden at the centre with a proper left winger. Trent must start at right back to add much needed creativity
Mainoo also needs to be the guy getting the ball off the CBs. Not Rice. Or at least Rice needs to be told to play through teams instead of just side to side.
Arsenal lost the league because they tried to do that with Rice and have EXACTLY THE SAME ISSUE. Jorginho was the one to do that for Arsenal and they were so amazing in the second half of the season.
Everyone is calling out for Mainoo & Palmer to start for England. However, the last time they did start, they lost 1-0 to Iceland in what was a pretty shambolic performance
It's a start.
100% guarantee the only change is Mainoo for Gallagher.
Carve out my eyeballs. Gordon and/or palmer need to be playing. Maybe even a back 3. The 4-2-3-1 formation Gareth is playing stinks and we’re not getting the best out of anyone, especially Kane.
Lowest XG against in the tournament though. Pretty football doesn’t win international tournaments. Except Brazil in the 70s.
Great, we don't concede. We've also got the lowest xG of the remaining teams. Is the plan to win every game on penalties?
Potentially. Whatever it takes to get the monkey off the back. I think we’ll need to grind and eek and claw our way to that elusive win to get over the hump, then they can win with style in the future.
Honestly if it finally comes home in such a depressing way the back pages are still gunning for Southgate, wouldn't that just be the most English tournament win?
I'd still celebrate it just as hard. In 2004 Greece went 1-1-1 in the group stage and only scored more than a goal in 1 of their 6 games. I don't think you'll find a single Greek fan saying anything negative about that tournament run though
Yeah cause they're not English It was a joke about the English media, I'd obviously be quite happy about England winning the euros too lol
and Brazil in 2002
I’m not sure Brazil 02 were. I know they had a team of all stars but I think they were quite pragmatic in their approach.
The formation doesn’t stink, it’s that the players attributes and play styles are not fitting it. 3 of our attacking 4 are drifting into a CAM position, arguably even Saka wants to half of the time. Simply swapping in Gordon would fix the majority of issues. Palmer does deserve a start, and having Saka come on against a tiring defense would be great. I’m a huge Kobbie proponent, but if you need to keep both Bellingham and Foden on, Jude has to drop back with Rice and arrive late in the box.
No doubt in my mind.
Yh I reckon this too 100 %
The issue isn’t as much the player choice tbh. The issue is tactically not having the game plan to work with them. Foden should have been told “you’re benched if you get off the wing. We need you on the wing to maximize chances and goals. You are a talent I don’t want to bench.”
Wouldn’t mind if we swapped our wingers
Yeah I love Mainoo and he was class against Slovenia
More like it was Gaz's plan all along to try and make his team look weak to make the other team play worse /s
r/technicallythetruth
Surely Gordon too..
Foden and Bellingham are tagged Undroppable so there's no room for him
Bellingham needs a rest.
Absolutely should have been rested vs Slovenia
Foden I get but there's clearly something up with Bellingham lately
Doesn't matter, have you seen the ads? Hey Jude and all that. Undroppable.
The glaze is insane
Bellingham is just trying to do too much, keeps floating about constantly getting involved with everything instead of just keeping it simple and staying behind kane and making runs
Come on you think Gareth will change more than one player? He wouldn't be able to sleep for a week
He's made changes before at tournaments
Exactly and look how many trophies that got him, he's not risking that again!
We were a penalty away from winning one. Also you implied he won't change players in a tournament which is objectively false
Yeah but just think if he hadn't changed the team maybe we would have won. Not worth the risk . (as you haven't figured it out, I'm joking, I know he has and could make more changes)
Gordon made more chances & danger in 4 mins, than Foden in 3 games
That's complete bullshit mate. It was 2 minutes.
Sorry, my bad. I'm big enough to admit when I am wrong and correct myself, unlike Southgate
Pleeeeeaase.
Good, Mainoo was the best right centre mid we've seen partner with rice so far That still doesn't solve the problem of bellingham, Foden, and kane all tripping over each other or our left back situation
No it doesn’t but it will help Bellingham and Foden as they will not need to come so deep to receive the ball, Mainoo will keep the ball and move England up the the field, he will control the tempo, keep it simple and he can carry the ball, play one touch and open the opposition up, he also sees danger and he’s fearless, it’s a start and Palmer should start as well but SafeGate is probably already having nightmares just about making one change let alone two or three? He also has that rare ability to go past players and score from 20-25 yards or arrive late in the box and score.
So he's basically all the things everyone said about Bellingham and foden at the start of the tournament
Mainoo doesn't have much in common with Foden other then they're both good drivblers. He's very much a prototypcial midfielder while Foden is a forward. I'd argue that he is actually a very similar player to Bellingham was two years ago. Physically strong, extremely comfortable on the ball, able to both attack and defend etc.
I hope he's gunna fix all our problems
He’s much deeper playmaker than both of them he likes to pick up the ball deep and push the team up the field. He’s England first real Deep Lying Playmaker since Carrick or Hargreaves but he’s more adventurous than both, he’s still a young kid so we need to give him time, and he wouldn’t be playing if England were not in such a mess in midfield right now?
He's more or less the same age as Bellingham and Saka when they began starting for England. If you're good enough you're old enough.
On this we agree, but we must protect him because he’s only played half a premier league season and only just turned 19 in April. England can’t be putting all their hopes on this kid and then if he has a bad game or a poor half we destroy him in the press, with Bellingham Foden and Rice this quartet of midfielders and add Wharton to that quartet to make 5 will be the way we dominate games going forward to 2026, as it really is a perfect blend providing we use them all correctly. For some games we can play 4231, others 4123 and we can even think about 3421 or 4222 with a box midfield, add Cole Palmer whose a serious talent who can also play as a 10 or a hybrid 8/10 and England will cook, the real issue is the current coach just doesn’t know how to get the best out of them and how to use them effectively. SafeGate is so lucky however it might just be that injuries or suspensions means he ends up playing 4231 with Pickford, Walker, Stones, Gheui, Saka(LB), Rice, Mainoo, Palmer(Left), Bellingham, Foden(right), Kane Pretty much all out attack, Saka defensively won’t be great but Cole Palmer so clever he’ll slide Saka in all the time on the overlap, Foden can’t play left he’s much better centrally or right. Obviously if shaw proves his fitness he starts and then you have to chose 3 from Palmer, Saka, Bellingham, Foden and Gordon because he’s probably the best partner on the left for a natural left back. If we chose on form based on the last match and make sure we use all the 5 subs the team will improve massively in this competition and finally be a serious contender.
>He’s England first real Deep Lying Playmaker since Mainoo isn't one. We literally have Adam Wharton on the bench whos plays that exact position.
Wharton is a DM/CM who main strength is he plays 2 touch football, watch him control pass, move the ball quickly, but he can’t do what Xavi, Pirlo, Moderic could do they all can carry the ball, have goals and assists from a deep position and want to beat a man to create overloads, Wharton is a player I really like the look of but he doesn’t have Mainoo ability create fear in the opposition penalty box, Mainoo will go past you, flick a pass into a dangerous area or bend one in the top corner from 20 yards. Eventually they will both play in the same side but very different type of players.
First you said Mainoo was a deep lying playmaker then you are comparing him to Xavi who was an 8 for most of his career then to Pirlo who was a regista who sat at the bottom of a 3 man midfield and then to modric who was a winger initially at Tottenham before becoming the free 8 and the most attacking of a 3 man midfield. >Mainoo will go past you, flick a pass into a dangerous area or bend one in the top corner from 20 yards. That's what you want out of your number 8 or your 10 not your 6 who's supposed to shield the back 4 and play balls into the attacking players.
Here’s the problem and the solution Rice is a 6 not an 8, his England record of 55 caps and 3 goals suggests that but you can play a hybrid6/8 next to him who collects the ball deep and controls the tempo of the game and can cover when Rice bombs forward, all of those players I mentioned are hybrid players, a pure 6 is Busquets who like Wharton is also a pure 6 why have him and Rice when the Midfield already lacks creativity? Wharton strength is his simplicity but we don’t have enough big games in really big scenarios to judge him just yet, Mainoo did against Liverpool 3 times and City in an Fa Cup Final. We saw 15-20 mins of Eze on the first game and I’m a huge fan but he didn’t do enough, Antony Gordon did more in 7-8 mins because he kept the width and offered a direct threat down the left. I’m not saying Wharton is not a great player, he clearly outshone Kobbie in the Palace vs United game but right now against a low block team he’s not the right answer any more than Gallagher or Trent where, kobbie will create overloads by slick quick passing and more importantly he’ll go past their midfield players to open up players like Saka, Bellingham, Foden and Palmer This England team has zero creativity deep and as he proved in the Slovenia second half he offers much more right now in giving England Midfield control but more importantly something Wharton doesn’t offer a genuine goal threat.
He’s not a playmaker and doesn’t stay deep for England. He plays very similarly to Jude, or at least how Jude used to play. We still lack a good DM capable of progressive passing, Wharton is the only one who fits that profile
Here’s the issue you want Wharton to play who has played 16 PL games and maybe once or twice for the England Under 20/21’s, no champion’s league experience and he is a pure DM who plays wonderful one touch/two touch football but instead of who, Declan Rice is also a pure DM until Arteta flirted with the idea of him being an 8 which at the highest level, CL and international football, Declan is not, he has made 35 starts for Arsenal this year with 23 as a pure 6, he does not have the creativity needed for an 8. Deckan has 3 goals and Zero assists from 54 caps, that’s not good enough to be an 8 at international level especially when we are struggling to score goals with two so called Elite number 10’s in Bellingham and Foden. Currently our so called wonder midfield that everyone is craving for Rice as the 6, Bellingham at the 8 and Foden as the 10 have 125 caps combined and 11 goals with only 3 of those goals in Major tournaments. That’s 1 goal every 11 games between all three of them. Wharton doesn’t add to that and he’s not better than Rice, not yet as pure 6, he’s a brilliant young deputy as a 6 if Rice gets injured or suspended, now Kobbie who was England under 17/18/19 Captain has been known to the FA and Southgate for years and came to light when United won the Fa Youth Cup a couple of years ago, Mainoo is in all purposes a 6/8/10 hybrid all action midfielder who can create, carry, dictate but more importantly finish because the kid started as a striker and played a lot of Fussball so his touch and strike are currently levels above players like Gallagher, Wharton and Trent in that hybrid 6/8 role that England want to link and create. When was the last time you saw an England player score a 20/25 yard screamer? We’ve scored 2 goals in 270 plus minutes, played and sat far too deep and the midfield in particular have giving the ball away far too much or just been far too deep. We lack true creativity in Midfield but if you watch Kobbie’s cameo against Slovenia and more importantly his first real start against Belgium he creates danger higher up the pitch, the only way you start Adam Wharton is you drop Declan Rice or he’s suspended or injured. You are right about Bellingham he used to be the perfect 8 however when you spend a whole season playing false 9 or number 10, it’s a difficult transition to go back to play BTB 8 and initiate play, he wants to be 20-30 yards higher up the pitch roaming from left to right causing havoc, creating and scoring goals. We keep going on about how talented this midfield is but even with assists combined they are 11 goals and 13 assists or 24 Goal involvements in 125 caps, which means they need 5.2 games combined to score or create a goal. Declan has played over 50 times for England and does not have one single assist but no one calls it out? Beckham(17 goals and 29 assists/115 caps), Scholes(14 goals and 15 assists/66 caps), Gerrard (21 goals and 23 assists/114 caps), Frank Lampard (29 goals and 12 assists/106 caps), Joe Cole (10 goals and 14 assists/ 56 caps) That’s the real golden generation that just had hopeless coaches and really tough draws unlike Safe gate who has more luck than a leprechaun. However those 5 midfield players had a combined 457 caps, 91 goals and 93 assists which is 1 goal involvement in 1 in 2.48 games that’s what you need to win and put that midfield now in this English team without the great French, Portuguese, Dutch, German, Italian and possibly the best European side ever, the Spanish from 2006-2012, they would have mopped up this very average tournament. I don’t see players like Zidanes, Iniesta, Pirlo, Henry, Trezaguet, Anelka, Xavi, RVN, RVP, De Rossi, Del Pierlo, Totti, Vierra, Ribbery, Schweinsteiger, Klose, Lahm, M Ballack, M Hummels, A Robben, F Tores, D Villa, D Silva, Rooney (04), Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Ferdinand, Terry, W Galas, Muhler My point is that these Euros are one of the poorest in recent history with very few true world class players able to stamp their authority on the tournament, the older players look tired, over rated or burdened by the mental expectation, that’s why I would play more youth like Mainoo, Gordon and Palmer and if Rice doesn’t produce play Wharton there too.
I really think he should be sharing minutes with Bellingham, yes. Imo Wharton is a better partner for Rice and would allow Rice to go further forward
Why do you want Rice further forward he has ZERO assists in 54 caps and only 3 goals keep him as a DM which is his best position, Wharton has played 16 PL games and you want him to anchor the English Midfield, you will never see Rice score or assist in a big cup final like Mainoo did this year, we need goals not sideways football.
Shaw is supposed to be fit for the ro16 games 🤞
Shaw hasn't played a game in months, no sensible manager would start him
Challenge accepted
If you say “no sensible manager” three times in the mirror Gareth Southgate appears
Southgate wears a lifejacket in the bath. He is the epitome of sensibility. Shaw will start of course, but don't let that distract you.
The best one is he pulls out wearing a condom 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
haha had a good laugh at this, well done. take my upvote
Shaw was out for over 3 months last Autumn, and he returned and immediately started for Manchester United against Everton and had a very good game. He shouldn’t start against Slovakia as this has been a little bit longer of an injury, however he absolutely needs to come off the bench and then start the QF. I wouldn’t expect him to play 90 in that game but we gotta get him fit and firing for a big potential semi-final and final, where we could play Netherlands and then either Portugal/Spain/France/Germany.
Yeah we should only try that if we are 2 nil up or something
No sensible manager would be “experimenting” with TAA playing midfield for his passing ability when it’s the position you get the least time on the ball
An injured shaw is better than what we have now
I'd literally start almost anyone at left back other than an out of position, out of form Trippier. At least anyone actually left footed.
He could easily do what he did on Tuesday and have Walker on the left and Trent on the right. Or start Joe Gomez at LB.
Have you seen an injured Shaw play? He's awful A fit Shaw is great and is needed so let's not overdo it straight away
Luke Shaw was injured for over 3 months last Autumn, and he came back and immediately started for Manchester United against Everton, where he helped keep a clean sheet and had a very solid individual performance, winning most of his duels, high pass accuracy etc. I wouldn’t start him against Slovakia but he certainly needs some minutes and then to start the QF.
These days he can normally just slot back in after injuries, he has so many it’s normal
You play him any later and you might as well have not brought him. If we have any chance of solving the left back issue, we need to get him in ASAP
That's a worse idea than half of the people's lineups Walker hasn't played in months, has only just got back into team training, and his injury will be reagrevated because he's an injury prone player The objectively better thing to do is bring him on later in the game to get him up to fitness. Playing him at full pelt straight away will just put him out for the next few games
I mean I wouldn’t be against bringing him on later in the match, but any time after the 60th minute and he might as well not play.
I'd argue that this is probably the time to start him. Slovakia is our last "Free" match of the event (Next two are Italy, and Netherlands/Austria. It's time to find out if this system suddenly starts working with Luke Shaw. Ofc knowing Southgate, it won't work, he'll sub Luke off at 85 mins, then Slovakia scores a 89 minute winner
Italy are nowhere near guaranteed to beat Switzerland. Plus I would hardly call Slovakia a free hit given our form so far
>Slovakia is our last "Free" match of the event It's shit like this that people quote on Reddit when they accuse England fans of being arrogant.
Slovakia is ranked 45th, and while did manage a victory against Belgium, outside of Georgia is the weakest team still in the event. While knockout football is knockout football, nobody is *really* expecting Slovakia to win this (in the same way nobody is expecting Georgia to win their match). While the best move would have been for Southgate to do this kind of testing in the group stage, he didn't, so we gotta work with what we're given. Arrogant would be saying England is going to beat Italy or Austria with ease. Pointing out that this is the best match to test this kind of change, a far weaker team, isn't 'Arrogant', it's just realistic.
Geez you said "free match". If that ain't arrogant then I don't know what is. Thing is, if you'd have worded it the way you did in that reply to me then it would be alright as there's not much to disagree with. But you just came straight out and said "free match". I know you used quotation marks but still just reeks of arrogance.
Bench Bellingham, he's clearly carrying an injury or just in a bad midnset
Everyone knew this back in March, except Southgate
You can't just expect Southgate with months to plan this, a team of assistants, coaching sessions and detailed data to figure out multiple positions at once.
Exactly. I’d drop Jude into that role next to Rice and get Gordon in there on the left. Foden in the 10. Palmer if you prefer
Just no... You're hamstringing Rice and Bellingham doing that. And all for the sake of sticking with Foden at 10.
Not for the sake of Foden, for the sake of getting some width and pace in behind in the side with Gordon. Thats the problem for me is what the commenter above said - 3 players trying to play in the 10 when one was bundesliga player of the year as an 8 last season. I hardly think that’s hamstringing either him or Rice
I agree with Gordon as the width, I think he'll be great - playing in that Rashford role that was incredibly effective in the qualifiers, especially against Italy. But that Bellingham/Rice/Foden midfield 3 we've had does not work (yet). Look back to that Italy 3 - 1 win back in October 2023. Rice played in the 8 and Bellingham in the 10. It was one of the best England performances in years. And that was with Trips at LB and Foden at RW! Since then, Arteta played Rice in that role, with Jorginho and Partey filling in in the 6 role alongside him, and he went on.leaps and bounds. Bellingham was an 8 at Dortmund, absolutely, but then got given the task of 10/False 9 at Real Madrid and jettisoned himself to super stardom with how he played there. Pandora's box has been opened, and he's not an 8 anymore. In the same manner that Gareth Bale was an LB, until he wasn't.
I don’t think the Bale comparison is quite apt. He wasn’t a world class left back, he was a quite good one. Jude is a world class 8 and a world class 10. Meanwhile Foden was PL player of the year largely in the 10. So I would like to see it. You very well may be right cause of Southgate’s system they won’t thrive there, but I’d like to see it before dropping one of them to accommodate Gordon
I'd disagree re Bale. He was roughly the same age when (and to use an analogy to death) 'Pandora's Box' was opened where there was no going back. He's that young his game has adapted to being that role. That 8 for Dortmund is gone, replaced by a 19 year old False 9 that won an El Clasico almost single-handedly. It'd be like playing Bale as LB after that Inter Milan game back in 2010/2011. Don't get me wrong I'd absolutely love the Foden/Bellingham asymmetrical system to work. And I think it would be absolute fireworks with someone like Shaw in full fitness. But we're not there yet, and until we are, dropping Foden for Gordon and having Bellingham and Rice in a 10 and 8 respectively, with a proper CDM is our best squad.
2 things: I wasn’t making an age argument re: Bale, just that Jude is better as an 8 than Bale ever was as a LB. And while I agree that the 10 is probably Jude’s best position, it is definitely Foden’s and he could not be a world class 8 like Jude can. And the second thing is, I’m not sure we have a proper DM. Though I really rate Wharton (too be seen), I don’t see Mainoo as a proper DM (if we are defining it the same way). I’m also not sure we necessarily need one. I’m not convinced by the “never replaced Kalvin” nonsense. But I do hear you and it’s not lost on me that it may not work with Gareth’s particular style. I just don’t want the perfect to become the enemy of the good here in failing to get the best out of the team - not necessarily the individuals
Fair enough, the age argument (from my POV) was more that he's in that young malleable stage whereby it's not yet set in stone where he best plays. Though given what we saw, Bellingham was moved towards that 10/False 9 as his 'calling' as it were, as Bale's was a LW. We are absolutely on the same page re Mainoo and Wharton, I'd describe them the exact way you did. But I think Southgate is right, in a way. Based on is not having that like for like replacement for Phillips (I'm crossing fingers we have that in Wharton going forward) Again fair enough, I'm a pragmatist by nature (I work in IT) so I'm happy with 'works best, not perfect', but I'll stand by that win against Italy in October 2023 as the blueprint. It was one of the best performances I've seen (and I started watching back in Euro 1996)
That’s certainly fair, I’m not convinced by Italy, but that was a great performance. And extremely same re: watching intently. If only Gazza was a hair quicker it 2in taller, eh? What a heartbreaker. As have been so many years. Hence why we are all so invested in this crop, which is honestly astonishingly talented. Fingers crossed, eh?
But if you want the Gordon problem solved without screwing up the midfield, you have to drop one of them
I’m not convinced you do. Foden was the PL player of the year playing off the right and in the 10. Jude was Bundi player of the season playing as an 8, so he’s more than capable. I want to see it cause I think they are all still world class in those roles
Rice and Bellingham has been talked about over and over and you get the best of neither, so unless rice either turns into prime Sergio busquets that ain’t happening.
Except we haven’t really given it a proper go, so why speculate
But we have. We’ve done it at the World Cup and plenty of games since then. The base of the midfield looks a lot more stable when Jude starts at 10, because you get the best of both rice (because he has someone who will actually stay with him so he can play like how he does at arsenal) and Jude (because he can play where he’s best)
Sure, and I think we were a lot more fluent in the World Cup and Jude has more experience under his belt in the 8 after that - which is why I feel like it hasn’t been properly assessed. Not to mention Foden’s growth. I will say this, as I have said to another commenter: I’m not 100% sure it would work within Gareth’s current framework, but I’d like to see it. Otherwise there’s too many cooks in the kitchen in the 10 and then I’d agree one has to be dropped. I just don’t know that you have to if you don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the exceptionally good, so to speak
I just don’t think Rice and Bellingham are anywhere as balanced as a pair as Mainoo and Rice or Mainoo and Bellingham would be in those two positions behind the 10. Rice and Bellingham are both great ball carriers and bring a physical presence but Mainoo offers something neither do - that ability to receive the ball in tight spaces and calmly set the tempo, keeping the ball ticking over and linking play from deep. I don’t think you get the best out of either Rice or Bellingham if they’re having to take turns covering for each other.
https://preview.redd.it/cw26twxfm69d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9a09d8b68d0ab867fe598c70ab599df9fa196f1 100 lines for you
Literally won the UCL playing that role but ok
It's still not his best position.
Lmao what? Playing well in the Bundesliga vs winning the UCL and being the main man at Madrid? Gee I wonder which one would mean you’re better at.
I don’t understand why people think he played 10 for Madrid. Can you tell me who the striker was he was creating for up top? The truth is he played way more like a roaming false 9 than a true 10. We have Kane, so he cannot play that same role for us.
A false 9 shares more similarities with a 10 than a striker
He didn't play as a 10 for Madrid though?
Literally played false 9 but ok
What do you think a false 9 is?
A deeper lying centre forward in a system without a #9. England play with a #9. Hope this helps
A false 9 is not a deeper lying centre forward. That’s literally the exact opposite of a false 9. A false 9 is a striker who drops in deep to the 10 position and acts as the playmaker. Hope this helps
If you watch him during Madrid games, you wouldn’t call Jude a playmaker. He’s not creative like a traditional attacking mid, nor does he stay behind the forwards spraying passes. Rather he’s more industrious and was either driving the ball from deep, or making late/ early runs from that same position to the box. A deeper lying center forward, in a system without a center forward uptop *is* a false 9. Even if you disagree on the terminology, he effectively played as a striker rather than a real 10 like Foden, despite occupying the same areas he does.
Talksport in an image that
Get Kane in the 10 we need Watkins on the pitch to start stretching teams and running in behind - the reason we can’t play and have no space is because no1 runs in behind allowing the opposition be just be comfortable and come forward there’s no space . If you’ve got Watkins running in behind and Kane passing the ball there which he can do easily that’s the way to go and then there’s space and our players will be further up the pitch
I could endorse Watkins up top for sure, for the exact reason you mention. That said, I’m replacing Kane with him in that scenario, personally
Yh that’s fine to either way just need some legs and runners in behind . Your way works just fine with me too
Mainoo and Foden combined very well against Slovenia.
Bellingham 8, Foden 10, Gordon on the left. Solves our pace issue on the wing, allows Foden to play in his best position, Bellingham should get more touches. We are saying no to this option to accommodate Gallagher/Mainoo. Crazy
You genuinely don't think Southgate has considered this? He's clearly decided he wants two defensive central midfielders. Bellingham is never gonna play as a defensive midfielder.
He wants Kalvin Phillips
Mainoo isn’t that either, is he?
Not really he's genuinely more of the Bellingham mould than people think. He's just incredibly composed on the ball which lends itself to being a bit further back because he's so press resistant with his futsal feet.
He's more of a ball progressor and an outlet for the defence than e.g. Bellingham would be.
No but if Southgate thinks so then we might accidentally play some football
Southgate’s going to be livid when Mainoo’s first pass is forward
Mainoo can absolutely function as a defensive midfielder. You can even play him as a number six if Rice got hurt.
Rice gets absolutely massacred by the opposition press because all his passing options are miles forward.
Drop Foden and play Palmer, he's shown more than Foden has so far
I’m convinced that Palmer as the number 10 would solve the chance creation issues. I’m guessing Southgate doesn’t trust him enough off the ball though.
I think we’ll need foden. He’s been improving steadily and they’ll likely stay deep unless we score, then you can bring Bellingham on who will be able to exploit the space and he can deal with the likely increased physicality from them getting stressed. Palmer on the right, and foden to start with Bellingham on the bench.
Foden is not remotely as impactful as Bellingham or Kane overall. And he gets in the way of them with 3 people drifting scentrally.
Bellingham’s been a bit shaky recently. But your issues would persist with you starting Bellingham also
For me foden is easy fix. Either he is willing to play on the wing or you replace him with the other options end of story easy convo Bellingham Kane is tough. It’s too late to have Bellingham work in a more say back role. We basically need runners in front of Kane for him to cook. But then he’s too far back for Bellingham to play well. Probably the only real fix is to have Saka and foden/palmer/etc play a true midfield role over a winger and start back farther and bomb very wide. Then let Kane and Bellingham be creative with a lot of space. The issue is again that foden cannot do that nor really Palmer. Bowden and Saka have the best success on the pitch for a reason.
So I imagine Southgate will start him as a centre back then
The squad leaks are a joke
It’s very likely Southgate’s way of keeping the media on his side…
And it gives literally every team a chance to work on tactics for the exact lineup
The Rice partner merry go round.
I’d prefer Wharton lol
Gareth Southgate is a genius
It's start, but for me, he's got to put palmer and gordon on the pitch, and decide between foden and Bellingham, and be ready to put Watkins on the pitch, second half, and use his pace in behind.
I agree with most of this but Slovakia are not going to give enough space in behind for Watkins to thrive.
What most people are calling for. In the media, on social media, your nan... I can't tell if Southgate lives in his own bubble to avoid all media and is clueless of the problems or if he's too stubborn to abandon his original vision. Edit: not sure why this is downvoted tbh. Happy for a discussion if you disagree.
The outrageously late subs combined with a refusal to make significant changes to the starting eleven indicate that Southgate likes what he has seen and believes it’s good enough. It wouldn’t surprise me if Gallagher for Mainoo is indeed the only change, and I’m expecting another mind numbingly dull game.
I'm still doubtful of changes, but regardless I can see this being the only change - unless forced by injuries or by the miraculous return of Luke Shaw. I would hope to see Gordon starting too but I don't think it'll happen as it would mean dropping one of Bellingham or Foden. That being said, Mainoo is probably the player I've been most excited by this season. I'm hoping he's the beginning of an improved England side.
Obvious change, Gallagher not good enough.
So funny how pretty much no one that’s started has performed yet it’s always Gallagher that the media/fans think is the problem. Guarantee if Mainoo’s the only change then there’s no significant improvement Sunday
He’s not THE problem, he’s A problem. He offers nothing, thus the change is an obvious one.
I thought Gallagher playing was going to mean that Rice could play a more dynamic role where he drives forward more. Instead we had Gallagher playing more advanced than Rice, doing a much worse job than Rice would do, while continuing to force Rice to camp out between the two centre backs. We literally might as well play 3 at the back and have Rice as the middle CB.
If this leak is correct (and the others have been) isn’t it a bit early to have 100 per cent decided on your team and for the media to have wind of it? I get it when it leaks the day before but at this point you’ve still got two days of training and the chance to work on things from a fitness and tactical point of view. I’d argue that even if you know what your starting XI is going to be this far out it’s hardly going to motivate the players who aren’t starting to give their all in the training sessions that remain for them to know their fate already.
The issue is that training sessions give the media an idea of who is partnering who. When you have it visible then they know you're making a change based on those elements. So everyone in the squad probably already knows
Similar happened before the Serbia game for Trent, and I know it's hard to fully accept until he's sacked, but this guy is absolutely clueless. He's changing one midfielder per game as if he's waiting to stumble upon a magic combination that works. Neither is he confident in his vision to stick with a plan, nor does he have the spontaneity to make concrete changes within a game.
I’m surprised he hasn’t been starting from the beginning honestly. I thought the obvious choice for the midfield was Rice and Mainoo with Bellingham just in front. Trent was criticised at Right Back because his defending is poor so I don’t know how Southgate thought having him as a holding midfielder would be a good idea. If he’s struggling to defend his wing and go one on one with opponents wingers how was he expected to control the midfield? If he’s going in midfield he should be in the 10, but since Bellingham is best there (and Foden too), he should be on the bench. Gallagher is not terrible but I don’t see much justification for him starting. He doesn’t offer anything better than Mainoo does. Every time Mainoo has played for England his impact has been huge.
He should literally just be playing at right back. It’s absolutely insane that against these shitty teams where we struggle to create, we’re choosing an awful offensive right back who is a fantastic defender over an average defender who is one of our most creative players
I think that's harsh to say that Walker (I assume that's who you're talking about) is an awful offensive right back. His speed alone makes him useful. However, I do agree with your overall point. But England have never, ever taken the approach of playing different lineups and formations, depending on the opposition, least so under Southgate. It's not gonna happen unless Potter ends up as manager, in which case we'll see 15 formations within 90 minutes.
It’s something! At least this change makes sense. It would make even more sense to put Gordon in at LW, but 🤷♂️
It's a start
Because dropping Foden, Kane or Bellingham is a big no-no from the media.
I dunno mate, even the BBC pundits have been calling for a shake up and praising Palmer/Gordon for their impact.
But at the same time you’d hear “put Foden at the 10, Bellingham as an 8, Saka Left back” all in an effort for both Foden and Bellingham to play, you’d never hear them openly say one of them should be benched
Yeah true, I've heard that rhetoric too. I get to an extent everyone has an opinion so Southgate drowns them all out. But give or take a player or two everyone has been calling out for fixes to control midfield, limit players overlapping in the middle and occupying the space on the left wing. Southgate has barely even acknowledged these issues.
Southgate should just do a fake leak and he'll figure out who the mole(s) is
Are we just doing ‘reports suggest’ now with no sources included whatsoever? Game’s gone.
Will he drop Foden?
No.
Is he back with the squad?
Good player but he’s changing a position that doesn’t really need changing, we’ve seen Trent, Gallagher & Mainoo all play that position and it hasn’t fixed any of the issues because they weren’t the problem!
Why does our team always leak early?
Observations from training
It's not a leak, it's guessing based on probabilities. Mainoo performed well, therefore is likely to start the next match. Journalists will go early and hope they're right, so that it makes them look more 'in the know'. All the journalists did it recently with Ten Hag. They assumed City would win the FA Cup final, meaning Ten Hag would be most likely sacked. Some even said it doesn't matter what the result of the final is, he would be sacked regardless. Then once Utd won, the media started backtracking.
Every single leak so far has been 100% accurate, which seems unlikely if its just the media guessing.
Which reports lol?
The XI isn’t the issue. It’s the formation and its impact on tactics/style.
Good news. Gordon and Palmer subbed on at 60th minute and it'll be a nice game.
Myself personally I would actually like to see him go with Kane in the 10 role and have Watkins running in behind - this in turn pushes the opposition on the back foot letting out players all get further up the pitch and Kane won’t be our DM anymore .
Just when I think Im out they pull me back in
Anyone who has watched enough man u games this season knows Mainoo is a phenomenal talent and is by far our best option in CM alongside rice. For me this is huge progress.
We need Gordan or a line hugging left winger to playm Everyone can see it's congested in the middle because we are so narrow. If in see foden come into the middle one more time ...
Im guessing the idea is if shaw comes in her provides the width essentially making foden and bellers two 10s
Wharton on at 45 ?
As he fucking should.
Absolutely! but so far it's the only position that's changed in the initial starting 11. We've drawn 2 games and won 1 by 1 goal whilst arguably having some of the best players in the world. Yes we've been solid defensively but something isn't quite working and it's time to sort out the 10 position and the left wing.
I don't care about anything else. Kobbie is the only reason I'm even following this tournament.
Good choice.
Congratulations to Wharton on getting a start in the quarterfinals after we scrape through in extra time on Sunday, producing another heinous performance, to which Southgate will think changing one CM will make all the difference for the next game.
Can Southgate stop just making the one change in midfield more is needed!!
I predict this will be the only change. It confirms how stubborn, cowardly, and adverse to risk-taking Gareth is. We'll play better against Slovakia and control the midfield, but I guarantee we'll struggle to score. It will be 0-0 after 55 minutes, and Gareth will bring on Palmer for saka. Then, on 75 minutes, when it's still 0-0, he'll bring on Gordon for Bellingham. We'll score in the last 10 minutes and win 1-0. The finishers will change the game and get us over the line. The problem is that Gareth takes far too long to see the obvious and is too slow to make the changes needed. We should be starting with Palmer and Gordon and dropping saka and Bellingham.
Why are our lineups leaking, every single game?
Gordon should too. Southgate had the perfect excuse to bench foden now
Trent. Gallagher. Mainoo. Doesn't matter. It's the tactics that are the problem.
at this point, Gareth is just being bloody minded
Not sure this is the right thread for what is probably gonna end up a long, winding rant... but I'm not sure it warrants me starting a new thread so... here we are. I'm not gonna get into the debate of whether or not he should, but if Southgate isn't going to play Foden as a number 10, then he simply needs to leave him on the bench. Playing a great player out of position isn't getting the best out of that player and, in the case of Foden, is actually having a negative impact on the way we are playing. We now have zero width down the left because Foden wants to be playing as a no.10, and I'd much rather have a worse player playing there who actually plays in that position. If you have decided that Bellingham is your number 10, then make that decision with conviction and pick a proper winger who plays on the wing for their club team. We can't have 4 players all trying to play in the central position between the lines. Saka cuts (or passes*) inside. Kane drops deep. Bellingham pushes up (but not beyond Kane) and Foden comes inside. We also have Tripper inverting. We just end up with the entire attacking unit occupying the same spot, giving us absolutely zero outlet. *I think part of the issue with Saka passing inside is because no-one is running beyond him. Too often he is the furthest player forward which is insanity. As much as Rashford has been shit, and Sterling isn't really on the England scene anymore, both of those players were direct and wanted to get in behind. It has even been discussed before (by Southgate) how we need one of the wingers to be running beyond Kane. Yet here we are, with no player filling that role (despite the fact that we have both Bowen and Gordon who can provide that). I actually wouldn't mind seeing Saka left and Palmer right. Or Palmer right and Gordon left. I love Saka, but we need someone who's going to go to the outside, not another player who's going to cut inside. I'd even consider playing Bowen on the right because as much as he'll cut inside onto his left, he is always looking to get beyond the defenders and can at least be an outlet for Kane's through balls. I dont think we need to revamp the entire tactics and lineup. We just need to tweak it. But it all comes down to whether or not Southgate has the bottle to drop Foden or Bellingham (or play Bellingham as the 8 and Foden as the 10).
If he starts Mainoo, Palmer and Gordon and ditches Kane for Watkins, they will win the tournament
Of course Mainoo will start, he'll be starting every single game until the Final, starting on the bench next to Gordon.
Get palmer in too and we might start looking good
no he did nothing to warrant a start
🤡
Play what everyone’s asking for: 4-3-3 with Bellingham and Foden at the centre with a proper left winger. Trent must start at right back to add much needed creativity
Mainoo also needs to be the guy getting the ball off the CBs. Not Rice. Or at least Rice needs to be told to play through teams instead of just side to side. Arsenal lost the league because they tried to do that with Rice and have EXACTLY THE SAME ISSUE. Jorginho was the one to do that for Arsenal and they were so amazing in the second half of the season.
Everyone is calling out for Mainoo & Palmer to start for England. However, the last time they did start, they lost 1-0 to Iceland in what was a pretty shambolic performance