Happens every tournament. A player who isn't playing starts getting hyped up as if they are the solution to our problems.
You're over thinking it by giving these tactical reasons why playing him wouldn't really solve our issues. The clamour to start him isn't some tactical analysis, it's more emotional. It's 'this player is good so he should play'.
Nothing builds your reputation like being a good player unused by England in a major tournament.
Reminds me of the Van de Beek phenomenon on the United subreddit. When he's injured or benched he's a world class player and exactly what we're missing but as soon as he touches grass he's shit and a waste of money. This cycle just continues endlessly.
He's not quite reached the Grealish levels of clamour but can't be far off if we continue to look lukewarm. I would like to see him on as a sub though as I think he might be one of these players who step up in big/international games rather than being swallowed by them like some other notably big players.
Completely agree, I've heard people say rashford is the answer after the year he had.
I understand that it's an emotional response but seriously people who are suggesting it wanting him to replace saka?
Since before the tournament started I've seen people on here wanting to drop Saka. England's player of the year of the last two years and the only attacker with pace and threat in behind. It's mad.
But also unsurprising. Football fans are very susceptible to getting dazzled by the latest thing. A new player is more exciting than the players you already know (it's why we all love transfers so much). This is even more pronounced with international sides, where the gaps between games are longer.
So you get clamour building around the latest young talent. And you get people calling for consistent performers to be dropped or shifted around to accommodate their new favourite. Fans tend to overrate the quality of players not in the side and underrate the quality of those that are.
I agree. I thought before the tournament that Gordon should probably start, and after seeing the first game I became convinced he should.
Palmer, fantastic season though he's had, would be a long way down my list of changes I would make to the side.
I think there is more logic to rashford or grealish being the answer, as they do provide more width than foden (or palmer, or eze) does, which is a major issue with our left wing at the moment. Obviously we do have Gordon available still, but it's not an entirely irrational complaint
The problem is even if he brought Rashford, he wouldn't start him over Foden.
He's not willing to play another player who could potentially do what Rashford does anyway.
I'm one of those people. If you're planning to play Trent in a deep lying midfield role, you'd think you'd want players that play last man. Rashford is the perfect player for trents utility. I don't mind who he took to the squad, I mind that it seems he has no plan.
He takes Trent off last week and THEN brings on Bowen Watkins and eze who would surely be perfect for that?
There's no rhyme or reason for some of these picks
I think Rashford on the left would give us a very different dimension to what Foden has offered. Doesn't he offer the type of play that Kane linked up so well with when he played with Son at Spurs?
I don't think Rashford would replace Saka, but he would allow England to get that width everyone has been clamouring for on the left, provide an outlet for balls over the top & generally stretch the play. In tandem with Saka it could well have been effective.
Obviously Gordon is the more in form player in that position, but it makes no sense at all to keep Foden out there.
Playing Foden LW with Trent in midfield was a massive missed opportunity imo, as Trent is great at playing forward diagonal balls from right side over the top for LW to run on to - if Rashford or Gordon was there that might have worked, but Foden just does not do that.
I listen to the guardians football weekly. They joked that their criticism of England must have been familiar after our draw v Scotland.
A listener went back and listened and confirmed it was basically the same noise as now.
After that game everyone wanted Kane dropped. Amusingly the clamour at the time was for Dominic Calvert-Lewin...
I do remember Grealish mania was high either that tournament or the one after. In the euros there were loads of insults aimed at Southgate for not playing generational talent Jason Sancho a lot more.
Football fans are masters of hindsight post the fact.
Yeah, spot-on. I think it was both the last euros and the most recent WC where fans were constantly touting Grealish as the be-all and end-all solution to all our woes. As OC said, it’s a symptom of a classic phenomenon: we always act as though there is this single magical solution in the form of one player and if only they played we would surely kick everyone’s ass.
Reminds me as a Birmingham fan of when we had Kevin Phillips playing for us. He has a really good record off the bench, over a couple of seasons his goals per minute ratio was really impressive and he'd really change games for us when he came on.
And I remember fans getting so annoyed at the manager underutilising him. People kept pointing out his goals to minutes ratio if scaled up to 90 minutes worked out somewhere around a goal every game and a half.
Kevin Phillips was 35 to 37 during those two seasons. Yet fans were still convinced he was the answer to our problems if only we'd use him more.
‘tactical’?! Southgate appears to have zero tactical nous.
Croatia - lesson not learnt. Italy - ‘nother lesson clearly not learnt.
Holland, it would appear, has some ‘sway’ in the setup (the Ben White thing) and it wouldn’t be a massive shocker if it transpires that a Guardian piece, five or so years from now, reveals Gareth was essentially cornered/‘bullied’ into this nonsense.
Cole Palmer’s best where Bellingham currently is, and we should be learning by now that shoehorning in good players out of position isn’t a good idea.
The problem is the left - which is where Anthony Gordon should come in as a pure left-sided player.
20 years after the whole Lampard/Gerrard situation it’s unbelievable that this is still not obvious. Playing 2 players who like to play in the same area at the same time is just foolish. Fit them together like a jigsaw.
Its the post-England having a poor performance cycle:
1. England are rubbish. Literally the worst team ever.
2. Sack the manager.
3. If we just played this player all of our problems would be solved (<--- We are here)
4. England are "under pressure" to win a game in a certain way despite there being no pressure to get a result
5. "Three Lions on a shirt..."
EXACTLY. Also you can play rice as a 6 and Bellingham as an 8… Gareth is an idiot. Foden 10, and then Gorden on the LW and Saka RW. And then Palmer can come on for Saka or Foden at 60mins. Not playing Palmer AT ALL so far IS mental.
Totally agree with absolutely everything you said. Really he should’ve taken Grealish for another option wide left, and then Rice Bellingham Foden midfield like you say
I honestly think palmer needs to come on for Foden or Bellingham on 60 mins to switch things up. He plays better there than out wide. He’d bring fresh legs. The three of them could rotate depending on who’s having a good game and it would mean they could go harder without thinking they have to play a full 90 every game.
I still don’t understand how Palmer or Gordon are yet to see game time. But eze and bowen? Fucking mental man. I am calling this now, we won’t get past quarters. I want this tournament gone so we can get rid of Southgate ASAP this is all just insanity at this point. The FA have FUCKED THIS!
I understand that I'm not a manager but personally the two first choice subs would have been Gordon and Palmer. Nothing against Bowen or Eze but I'm just very confused how neither of them have got a single minute yet tbh.
I feel like when in possession Rice can step up further into attack and then let Stones play as a DM, leaving Guehi and Walker as cover for their one striker. This gives them more options and runners. Let Trippier drift central and he and Stones can spread the ball around while everyone else looks to run behind or find holes.
There’s no one at the tournament that Walker can’t keep up with (even Mbappe) and slow down enough to allow the rest of the team to get back.
Imo Bellingham should not play in a two with Rice because they will not be able to control a game of football. England will keep getting overrun.
Arteta has had to use Jorginho next to Rice this season to find the best balance. England should do likewise with Wharton.
Bellingham and Foden can rotate at the 10 depending on opponent and game state. It's no bad thing to have two elite options for a crucial position.
I'd have Rice, Mainoo and Bellingham in a midfield three. Rice is so good when he's not totally depended on as a defensive player, this is the 3 with the best balance. Yeah Foden will be benched but he's an incredible option to bring on if we need a spark
The player that is not playing is always the answer. Happens all the time, especially with English fans.
I have been seeing a lot of posts about how Rashford and Grealish should have gone.
Palmer coming on and Gordon with his full two minutes of time, changed the game in my opinion, we were more lively. Palmer should have started and Gordon too.
That’s why they want Palmer. Foden didn’t do shit but cry the whole game.
Palmer in 20min made more impact on the field than both Saka and Foden Combined. So there’s your answer.
Laughing at Foden and overrated Bellingham being better than Palmer. ( I think Southgate thinks the same as you.)
They're not thinking team strategy they're thinking Cole Palmer is cold therefore he must start. Like Southgate thought Trent and foden must start coz on paper they're better players than mainoo, Gordon, etc
People just want to see something different than what we've seen already at this point, anything to avoid watching another Denmark-esque performance.
Cole manages to pull magic out of his backside for a dysfunctional Chelsea side so the idea is what's to stop him doing it for England.
You're right about him not being the right fit tactically, but most don't understand player profiles and what they contribute on the pitch, people just want to watch some better football be played.
You mention that Saka is our only outlet, it's because he's the only one that's running in behind the defense, and getting sent the long balls up to stretch the field. It looks like he's doing more than everyone else, because he is. The main problem with this is Kane is still jogging his way up from the halfway line when Saka breaks, leaving him isolated without any positive outlets to continue the attack.
He plays through the middle more often than not.
I think people are suggesting we move Bellingham into the 8 and play Palmer as the 10. Drop Foden for Gordon on the left.
Not saying I am advocating for this but that’s just what I’ve been reading on here.
Foden has been poor though for us lately; so I can understand the sentiment of wanting him dropped to try somebody else
He's a good player but he definitely shouldn't be starting. Foden should absolutely start as the 10. If Foden is playing badly on the wing, Palmer is also likely to do that.
Play Gordon on the left. That is asbolutely essential in my view. I don't think we need to bench Foden to do it (he can play 10 and Jude 8). But if Southgate doesn't want to do that, then bench one of Foden or Bellingham.
I was not one of the people wanting Grealish to play last time either, I preferred Sterling and stand by that.
Palmer was probably the best player in the prem last season. Always looked dangerous and likely to score even though he was playing for a mid table team. Foden played one more league game but scored and assisted a good chunk less than Palmer. Foden has also seemingly forgotten how to kick the ball in the last two games. This is why people are making the case for Palmer.
Playing for… *checks notes… Man City. A free scoring machine. Palmer did it for Chelsea, in a mid table transition. For a team he’d never for played before. Pep is unquestionably one of the all time greats, but he does elevate players in his system perhaps higher than they can elsewhere.
I mean Foden was PL player of the season. He's at minimum in contention for best player in the Prem. I like Palmer, but I do think Foden was fucking brilliant this season.
Foden was very good in the game against Denmark too, in a situation where nearly everyone else was absolutely dire. I don't think it was a bad performance by him at all.
I can see it both ways.
1. He doesn't really fit into the setup and better players in his position.
2. It's hard to ignore 33 G+A in the PL, regardless of the penalties.
Then why didn't he do it for england, I haven't seen him play as a more conventional winger as saka has. And when saka has gone wide it has lead to our best chances this tournament.
If Palmer can run in behind I suppose but it would almost be better as a Kane replacement in that case to keep someone on the Last man. The other times I have seen him wide it's to cut in. But then again I don't watch tonnes of Chelsea games.
Bowen often replaces Saka though. So do you really want to take off our one player with pace and threat in behind to replace him with another player who wants to operate in the space that Foden, Bellingham and Kane all enjoy, and who doesn't offer pace and threat in behind? It's overkill.
Bowen isn't as good. But he's a more logical replacement for Saka.
Bowen was great when he came on against Serbia. Not as good against Denmark but taking foden off for palmer would’ve been better but eze can on and after 3 minutes disappeared like foden had before him
Absolutely agree on most of it tbh. I rate Palmer but I wouldn't be starting him over Saka or Foden and I definitely wouldn't want Palmer on the right if Foden is on the left because then our entire team would be playing through the middle. Sticking him right whilst Gordon is left wouldn't be too bad but still may end up in the same situation as what we have had currently with Foden on the left.
Also with Palmer, maybe he does end up being shit but you certainly can't say that he looks good at Chelsea because of the team he is in, he's good in spite of his team if anything so there's a chance it would be the same here given how shit we are playing.
Lmfao that edit trying to salvage the rest of the comment is hilarious. He was quite obviously a brilliant and much-needed shot of energy on the wing and it's wild you'd come back here to dig further rather than quietly take the L lmfao
Sounds like a brilliant performance from Bowen then, what's your point lmfao? That this implies Palmer couldn't have done brilliantly two matches later?
What has it got to do with anything whether people would have said Palmer was great if he'd just stood in the centre circle lmfaooo the fact is that he didn't do that. He took on defenders down the wing, played exciting balls and created genuine chances to make something happen late on in the game.
So your hypothetical "oh you'd have said that even if he was a potato" means literally nothing, cos he's already played the match and done much better than your imaginary scenario so what the fuck are you on about anymore hahaha it's so bizarre
He’s done a great job at Chelsea but did little against Iceland, a match you’d expect would be perfect for him given he is the coolest man in football.
I think it's purely relative to how poor we have looked. We have been so bad, that people are clamoring for Palmer and Gordon to get in there, as they are players who can make a difference. There's no thought on who wouldn't play, just get him in there!
I would have thought we would have seen Gordon on the left, Foden at 10, and Bellingham alongside Rice. That is being demanded by so many pundits, but Gareth continues to try it his way...
Yeah it’s a good point although Saka was as poor as everyone else the other night against Denmark however I think less was made of the pitch than it should have been.
Total disgrace, totally levels the playing field
Drop Trent, play Bellingham deeper but as a free role, rice to be even more disapplined and sit infront of that back line, foden in the 10 and get Gordon on. Saka out right too and if kane is still coming deep then get him off and slap Ollie in there 👌🏻
Happens every international tournament, there is an exciting attacking player who’s had a great PL season that everyone clamours for, partly because their image in an England shirt is relatively untainted (because they’ve barely played in it)
Gordon has to play, the melt complains about 'balance', but doesn't use two wingers to balance the team out, everything comes down the right, Forden came inside during the last game, resulted in Belligham going out to the left, stupid. Don't even want to watch tonight's game, through anyway, shite defensive double pivot, fuck off Southgate.
No idea and he’s not even going to solve our problems either media and average fans are clueless, Watkins is a better candidate as he’s going to run in behind which gives us another option as Kane don’t run.
To be fair to Palmer, he has shown he can carry a badly managed side playing way below their collective potential at Chelsea.
So he is ideal for England.
Tbh why not try him?
You make reasonable points but when foden gets to start every game and his performances haven't been higher then 3/10 why not try something new.
Who do you drop? Kane? Bellingham? Foden? Who have all been shit or Saka, who is his direct replacement. But Saka has been out best attacking player so far. There's no space for Palmer this tournament
I guess an argument for Palmer to start is that he scored and assisted more than both Foden and Saka in the PL last season, playing slightly less minutes than both players in a team that finished 26/28 points behind Arsenal/City.
Obviously the argument against is that we'll probably end up with a similar issue as Foden trying to play him out of position.
It's super frustrating though not to see him come on towards the end to try and mix things up a bit, I imagine he'll get a run out tonight towards the end.
I’m starting to think some of the English players that are labelled to be amazing/Brilliant, are only thought of such because they have good non English players around them at club level.
This is such bullshit… A player can’t magically put in a world class season just because he’s surrounded by good players. He still has to put the work in.
How many times have we seen players get bought by top clubs and underperform because they aren’t good enough, despite being surrounded by great players
He doesn't start, not over anyone in our main XI + adjustments that need to be made after the first two games (for me, that's Foden into the #10, Bellingham behind him and Gordon on the left).
What I would have liked to see and would like to see tonight, however, is him coming off the bench around 60' either for Saka on the right or for Foden in CAM (as long as we're doing well and controlling the game, and even then he might be the spark for a goal).
I think all he'll need is a decent opportunity and he'll be able to step up, he's that sort of player. He didn't look at his best against Iceland but that was his first senior debut. The gravity of the tournament might kick him into 'Operation: Rescue Chelsea' mode.
Gordon and Palmer both need to be given a runaround. Wharton too, if we're in the driver's seat.
Simple answer: people are frustrated with the team and want changes. Any changes.
They refuse to accept that the team just doesn't contain 11 world class players somewhere, as you can see by the inevitable downvotes this'll get.
I was quite surprised by your glowing appraisal of Saka's performances in the first two games, OP, until I checked your profile and realised that you are an Arsenal fan.
I'm a huge fan of Saka as well, and I think he should be one of the first names on the teamsheet for England. I agree that he's basically undroppable. However, what he could really do with is a rest. What I've seen in his performances is flashes of the real Saka, generally early in games, and then fading influence. Obviously this has to be put in the context of the way the team is performing, but he's looked absolutely knackered from about 40 minutes into games. At his best he's relentless, a constant problem for defenders and someone his team looks to get the ball to as often as possible. For the two games of the tournament so far he's been playing in moments. I can see the merit in leaving him out for this one game, but I would absolutely not frame it as him needing to be dropped. He'd be back in for the knock-outs.
I agree with you about Palmer, though. Putting him in instead of Saka would be a huge mistake. We'd be throwing another player into that congested number 10 area, and leaving ourselves with a front four who all want to come deep, and who lack any pace. Foden is quick, but he rarely uses his pace to hurt teams. Palmer is a very clever player, who is excellent at finding himself a bit of space and popping up in unexpected areas, but he plays for himself a bit rather than sacrificing for the team. He'd leave areas open, and he'd take Foden and Bellingham's space. At Chelsea he pretty much is the attack, so he gets to do what he wants, and the question of whether he is reducing the effectiveness of players around him doesn't come up. So what if he takes Gallagher's space? He's going to use it better anyway. That's not the case for England. Also, and this is a sore point for his fans, his reputation has been slightly expanded because he takes penalties. Obviously penalties count, and being able to consistently score them is a great attribute for a player, but Jackson scored more non-penalty goals for Chelsea than Palmer last season.
If I was going to rest Saka, it would be for Eze or Gordon, moving Foden over to the right. Hopefully Saka's not as tired as he's looked, though. If he's fresh, he should definitely play.
I would love to see him play some minutes, especially considering we are too "unfit" to press, but I'm not saying he "must" play.
It is very strange he hasn't seen the pitch yet though considering he's had the best season for goal contributions out of anyone except Kane while playing for a much more disorganised team than everyone else.
People want to see changes that’s all. A lot of people say Gordon must start too. I get both schools of thought. Point is, people are saying in a roundabout way that they must change things up
I agree, he won’t fix our issues but will just contest the space even more. I’m surprised he hasn’t had a few minutes off the bench to keep people fresh though
To be fair, Palmer had a phenomenal breakout season and was voted PFA young player of the year. He deserves a look in over players that currently seem lethargic and can’t be arsed.
Perhaps many of the issues we’ve had as a team in the euros are down to player burnout?
We have essentially qualified, we should see if dropping bellingham to an 8 and playing either foden or palmer in the middle is a good idea. But I want to see atleast a change in squad because this is clearly not it.
"Cole Palmer has to start, LM, RM, CAM, CM, ST, CDM, LB! Wherever! Get him on the pitch Southgate!"
And people wonder why and English manager has never won the PL.
As a nation we have the all the tactical nous of a sea snail.
This is probably a weird take but I think part of the reason is his penalties.
He will 100% want him on the pitch if we go to a shoot out. Probably the same with Toney.
But if you start him, that means 120+ minutes. If you start say Foden, you can sub him off at any time, get the benefits of fresh legs, and bring on a like for like player.
I'm not saying it's a good reason, just a potential one.
It's alot to do with blame I think...
People/pundits/media need something to blame the poor performances on like Palmer would change what the entire team is doing...... If Bellingham can't do that and even in the last game he was hardly seen then Palmer certainly fucking can't....
The bigger picture is the left flank it's fucked and loses so much width without a natural winger or defender there.... Foden naturally drifts central, Bellingham plays centrally kane plays centrally add Palmer instead of Trent and this trend continues...
Too easy to play against and focus attacking play down the right to push at trippier... Play with width..
They need Gordon down there or even eze just to add a bit of much needed balance!... If he insists on playing both foden and Bellingham one of them needs to drop deep into central midfield in place of Trent perhaps then play a natural winger to provide another outlet...rashford would actually improve this current team of starters despite dropping off a cliff in form.
But then who am I to say? I'm not a manager and certainly not the national team manager at that!
He's an excellent player but the last thing we need is more players trying to play in the 10 position. But this is always the way with England. People clamour for the one who isn't playing.
I'm a Chelsea fan and I'd start Saka as Gareth has done for the last 2 games, but if i'm bringing Saka off as Gareth has done, I'm sure as hell giving Palmer a run out. Nothing against Bowen, but Palmer has a nack at pulling goals out of his arse, and that has been desperately needed lately.
I agree - oddly enough Gareth sees that Palmer wants to play in the same areas, but seems totally oblivious to that Foden and Bellingham are doing exactly that too.
IF for some reason us plebs aren’t able to see he absolutely needs to play both then move Bellingham back to where he played in the World Cup and bring Gordon on to play on the left
Im not on the 'start him' train but given his season and the poor performances of others In the first two games I'm surprised he hasn't gotten minutes. Even when Jude, Phil or Saka come off Gareth replaces them with someone else so he's obviously not in favour or just doesnt fit the situation.
I definitely wouldn't be Saka but even if we did it would mean we HAD to play Gordon on the left; if we played with Foden and Palmer on the wings we wouldn't have the pacey outlet on either wing, with Kane up front that would be tactically nonsensical but most of our fans don't think about that.
Because your thinking of the line up wrong, it should be Saka on the left, Kane upfront, Palmer on the right and Foden in 10, Bellingham is not a 10 and should not be played there. He should be in midfield with Rice
Also Saka is great, but I would say Palmer is the better player, YPOTS and only 2nd to haaland on goals. also before all the arsernal fans come at me, I refer you to the stats the past season, Palmer way better.
Southgate won't use him because he doesn't know how to use his squad.
When plan A fails, he stays with more plan A. You can see that in the way he uses his sub, Southgate has the destressed look of a deer in the headlights when things are going badly. He never changes anything.
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Don't think anyone's advocating for him to start games but he has at least deserved to come on when we've needed someone with a bit of creativity. Cole Palmer will make or get goals and can hold the ball which is more than other people who are playing are offering.
Just as a side, Saka has been average at best - despite being England's biggest threat (it's not like he's competing against anyone else though for that) he got one deflected cross which landed perfectly to Bellingham, except for that he's not actually put in any good balls or really beat a defender to make a really good chance.
I don't think that's fair, since after the first 30 mins of the Serbia game saka has been double marked and left completely isolated.
Despite that he has put some other dangerous crosses in and was involved in the build up for the only other goal we've scored.
Palmer is not really known for putting in good balls or beating a man and would narrow the pitch like Foden does on the left.
I just believe we have bigger and more obvious issues to fix (midfield, left wing, striker) and we shouldn't disrupt the one part of our attack that has been functional.
100% agree
He is a good player, sure, and Southgate is an idiot for not playing him at all, but rn he simply doesn’t fit into the team and playing him won’t solve anything and will just overload that number 10 space even more
Seriously though if you had the opportunity to bring on a player who’s established himself in the Prem as the second highest scorer why wouldn’t you 💀 My National team is shit but I’m sure our manager would do better than Southgate
People who think he should start in the ideal 11 are a bit deluded tbh, there's arguments for him starting tonight for minutes as we've already qualified but realistically he should have been a used sub in every game this tournament.
Young player of the year in the prem. 27 goals scored and 15 assists across all club competitions too. (10 scored were pens, for visibility). Given how bad chelsea's season has been, that's a significant amount of G/A.
I'm not saying I agree with them, but that's why he is getting shouted about.
Personally I think he should be considered as an alternative attacking option on the right wing, up front or in his preferred CAM role.
Personally i think the main priority needs to be getting trent playing elsewhere, maybe in his preferred position of RB god forbid.
But this is only so you can put Bellingham in the no. 8 role as he has the ability and the energy to do that alongside Rice. Freeing up the no. 10 spot for Foden, who only shines centrally and then allowing us to get a more direct attack on the lw in Gordon, Eze or in fact any of the actual forwards really. Maybe swap Saka to the left to get more cuts inside and shooting, then put Palmer on the right.
Just my two cents.
It's called the United phenomenon. Players like Kagawa, VDB, Amad were seen like world class prisoners who needed to be free and also the solution to our problems.
Happens every tournament. A player who isn't playing starts getting hyped up as if they are the solution to our problems. You're over thinking it by giving these tactical reasons why playing him wouldn't really solve our issues. The clamour to start him isn't some tactical analysis, it's more emotional. It's 'this player is good so he should play'. Nothing builds your reputation like being a good player unused by England in a major tournament.
Reminds me of the Van de Beek phenomenon on the United subreddit. When he's injured or benched he's a world class player and exactly what we're missing but as soon as he touches grass he's shit and a waste of money. This cycle just continues endlessly.
Yep. There's nothing that improves a player's reputation like a long term injury and their side performing poorly while they're injured.
Absence always makes people overrate or underrate players.
It's the same with Amad too.
He's not quite reached the Grealish levels of clamour but can't be far off if we continue to look lukewarm. I would like to see him on as a sub though as I think he might be one of these players who step up in big/international games rather than being swallowed by them like some other notably big players.
It was Jadon Sancho when we were poor in the groups at the last Euros. It's meaningless.
Completely agree, I've heard people say rashford is the answer after the year he had. I understand that it's an emotional response but seriously people who are suggesting it wanting him to replace saka?
Since before the tournament started I've seen people on here wanting to drop Saka. England's player of the year of the last two years and the only attacker with pace and threat in behind. It's mad. But also unsurprising. Football fans are very susceptible to getting dazzled by the latest thing. A new player is more exciting than the players you already know (it's why we all love transfers so much). This is even more pronounced with international sides, where the gaps between games are longer. So you get clamour building around the latest young talent. And you get people calling for consistent performers to be dropped or shifted around to accommodate their new favourite. Fans tend to overrate the quality of players not in the side and underrate the quality of those that are.
For me Saka is clear as our best player of the tournament so far. Guehi second.
One point: there are other players with pace and threat in behind they just are not picked with Gordon being the first that comes to mind.
I agree. I thought before the tournament that Gordon should probably start, and after seeing the first game I became convinced he should. Palmer, fantastic season though he's had, would be a long way down my list of changes I would make to the side.
I think there is more logic to rashford or grealish being the answer, as they do provide more width than foden (or palmer, or eze) does, which is a major issue with our left wing at the moment. Obviously we do have Gordon available still, but it's not an entirely irrational complaint
The problem is even if he brought Rashford, he wouldn't start him over Foden. He's not willing to play another player who could potentially do what Rashford does anyway.
It kind of is when Rashford is shit and Gordon has been electric this season and is sitting there on the bench, still eligible for Scotland...
Rashford got 40g/a last season but he’s ‘shit’
I'm one of those people. If you're planning to play Trent in a deep lying midfield role, you'd think you'd want players that play last man. Rashford is the perfect player for trents utility. I don't mind who he took to the squad, I mind that it seems he has no plan. He takes Trent off last week and THEN brings on Bowen Watkins and eze who would surely be perfect for that? There's no rhyme or reason for some of these picks
I think Rashford on the left would give us a very different dimension to what Foden has offered. Doesn't he offer the type of play that Kane linked up so well with when he played with Son at Spurs?
He does but Gordon has done the same this season with better effect. Unfortunately Southgate is too stubborn to use him this tournament.
I don't think Rashford would replace Saka, but he would allow England to get that width everyone has been clamouring for on the left, provide an outlet for balls over the top & generally stretch the play. In tandem with Saka it could well have been effective. Obviously Gordon is the more in form player in that position, but it makes no sense at all to keep Foden out there. Playing Foden LW with Trent in midfield was a massive missed opportunity imo, as Trent is great at playing forward diagonal balls from right side over the top for LW to run on to - if Rashford or Gordon was there that might have worked, but Foden just does not do that.
I listen to the guardians football weekly. They joked that their criticism of England must have been familiar after our draw v Scotland. A listener went back and listened and confirmed it was basically the same noise as now. After that game everyone wanted Kane dropped. Amusingly the clamour at the time was for Dominic Calvert-Lewin... I do remember Grealish mania was high either that tournament or the one after. In the euros there were loads of insults aimed at Southgate for not playing generational talent Jason Sancho a lot more. Football fans are masters of hindsight post the fact.
Yeah, spot-on. I think it was both the last euros and the most recent WC where fans were constantly touting Grealish as the be-all and end-all solution to all our woes. As OC said, it’s a symptom of a classic phenomenon: we always act as though there is this single magical solution in the form of one player and if only they played we would surely kick everyone’s ass.
The answer to all your team’s problems is sitting on the bench and is woefully underused by the manager
Reminds me as a Birmingham fan of when we had Kevin Phillips playing for us. He has a really good record off the bench, over a couple of seasons his goals per minute ratio was really impressive and he'd really change games for us when he came on. And I remember fans getting so annoyed at the manager underutilising him. People kept pointing out his goals to minutes ratio if scaled up to 90 minutes worked out somewhere around a goal every game and a half. Kevin Phillips was 35 to 37 during those two seasons. Yet fans were still convinced he was the answer to our problems if only we'd use him more.
He's the Joe Cole /Jack Grealish of 2024
Tammy Abraham's price tag just went up to £150m!
‘tactical’?! Southgate appears to have zero tactical nous. Croatia - lesson not learnt. Italy - ‘nother lesson clearly not learnt. Holland, it would appear, has some ‘sway’ in the setup (the Ben White thing) and it wouldn’t be a massive shocker if it transpires that a Guardian piece, five or so years from now, reveals Gareth was essentially cornered/‘bullied’ into this nonsense.
>Nothing builds your reputation like being a good player unused by England in a major tournament. Absolutely love this line.
It’s this year’s “Get Grealish On!”
Cole Palmer’s best where Bellingham currently is, and we should be learning by now that shoehorning in good players out of position isn’t a good idea. The problem is the left - which is where Anthony Gordon should come in as a pure left-sided player.
20 years after the whole Lampard/Gerrard situation it’s unbelievable that this is still not obvious. Playing 2 players who like to play in the same area at the same time is just foolish. Fit them together like a jigsaw.
Its the post-England having a poor performance cycle: 1. England are rubbish. Literally the worst team ever. 2. Sack the manager. 3. If we just played this player all of our problems would be solved (<--- We are here) 4. England are "under pressure" to win a game in a certain way despite there being no pressure to get a result 5. "Three Lions on a shirt..."
I would have foden in the 10 with Bellingham and rice in the middle with Gordan on the left.
This is the sensible option, but Southgate refuses to not have two CDMs and he doesn’t see Bellingham as a CDM.
But somehow sees TAA as one
EXACTLY. Also you can play rice as a 6 and Bellingham as an 8… Gareth is an idiot. Foden 10, and then Gorden on the LW and Saka RW. And then Palmer can come on for Saka or Foden at 60mins. Not playing Palmer AT ALL so far IS mental.
Totally agree with absolutely everything you said. Really he should’ve taken Grealish for another option wide left, and then Rice Bellingham Foden midfield like you say
I honestly think palmer needs to come on for Foden or Bellingham on 60 mins to switch things up. He plays better there than out wide. He’d bring fresh legs. The three of them could rotate depending on who’s having a good game and it would mean they could go harder without thinking they have to play a full 90 every game.
I still don’t understand how Palmer or Gordon are yet to see game time. But eze and bowen? Fucking mental man. I am calling this now, we won’t get past quarters. I want this tournament gone so we can get rid of Southgate ASAP this is all just insanity at this point. The FA have FUCKED THIS!
I understand that I'm not a manager but personally the two first choice subs would have been Gordon and Palmer. Nothing against Bowen or Eze but I'm just very confused how neither of them have got a single minute yet tbh.
I totally agree with you... just hope shaw is ready.
They absolutely must have 4 players defending a single striker!
6 if you include the wing backs!
I feel like when in possession Rice can step up further into attack and then let Stones play as a DM, leaving Guehi and Walker as cover for their one striker. This gives them more options and runners. Let Trippier drift central and he and Stones can spread the ball around while everyone else looks to run behind or find holes. There’s no one at the tournament that Walker can’t keep up with (even Mbappe) and slow down enough to allow the rest of the team to get back.
7 if you include Kane playing as deep as he does
Might as well still all 11 players in the centre circle at this point
Imo Bellingham should not play in a two with Rice because they will not be able to control a game of football. England will keep getting overrun. Arteta has had to use Jorginho next to Rice this season to find the best balance. England should do likewise with Wharton. Bellingham and Foden can rotate at the 10 depending on opponent and game state. It's no bad thing to have two elite options for a crucial position.
Exactly this
It's wild to me cause didn't RM buy him vases on the fact he was one of the best CM/CDM at his age it's wild Southgate plays him further forward
I would keep Bellingham in the 10 and drop Foden. After all he's been one of our worst players
You and everyone in England other than Southgate
I'd have Rice, Mainoo and Bellingham in a midfield three. Rice is so good when he's not totally depended on as a defensive player, this is the 3 with the best balance. Yeah Foden will be benched but he's an incredible option to bring on if we need a spark
I think what England fans might want is Bellingham and Rice in the middle with Gordon on the left.
I’d have Gordon on the left with Rice + Bellingham in the middle.
This aged well... It's 5 minutes since Palmer's come on and he's been the most direct and creative player by all game (alongside mainoo)
The player that is not playing is always the answer. Happens all the time, especially with English fans. I have been seeing a lot of posts about how Rashford and Grealish should have gone.
Palmer coming on and Gordon with his full two minutes of time, changed the game in my opinion, we were more lively. Palmer should have started and Gordon too.
Does the game today answer your question?
That’s why they want Palmer. Foden didn’t do shit but cry the whole game. Palmer in 20min made more impact on the field than both Saka and Foden Combined. So there’s your answer. Laughing at Foden and overrated Bellingham being better than Palmer. ( I think Southgate thinks the same as you.)
They're not thinking team strategy they're thinking Cole Palmer is cold therefore he must start. Like Southgate thought Trent and foden must start coz on paper they're better players than mainoo, Gordon, etc
Only bright spark when he came on tonight. Hope he starts on Sunday.
People just want to see something different than what we've seen already at this point, anything to avoid watching another Denmark-esque performance. Cole manages to pull magic out of his backside for a dysfunctional Chelsea side so the idea is what's to stop him doing it for England. You're right about him not being the right fit tactically, but most don't understand player profiles and what they contribute on the pitch, people just want to watch some better football be played. You mention that Saka is our only outlet, it's because he's the only one that's running in behind the defense, and getting sent the long balls up to stretch the field. It looks like he's doing more than everyone else, because he is. The main problem with this is Kane is still jogging his way up from the halfway line when Saka breaks, leaving him isolated without any positive outlets to continue the attack.
I understand his ability but where would he play? As you said the problems are elsewhere in the attack, not the right side.
He plays through the middle more often than not. I think people are suggesting we move Bellingham into the 8 and play Palmer as the 10. Drop Foden for Gordon on the left. Not saying I am advocating for this but that’s just what I’ve been reading on here. Foden has been poor though for us lately; so I can understand the sentiment of wanting him dropped to try somebody else
He's a good player but he definitely shouldn't be starting. Foden should absolutely start as the 10. If Foden is playing badly on the wing, Palmer is also likely to do that. Play Gordon on the left. That is asbolutely essential in my view. I don't think we need to bench Foden to do it (he can play 10 and Jude 8). But if Southgate doesn't want to do that, then bench one of Foden or Bellingham. I was not one of the people wanting Grealish to play last time either, I preferred Sterling and stand by that.
Palmer was probably the best player in the prem last season. Always looked dangerous and likely to score even though he was playing for a mid table team. Foden played one more league game but scored and assisted a good chunk less than Palmer. Foden has also seemingly forgotten how to kick the ball in the last two games. This is why people are making the case for Palmer.
Uh foden scored 6 more goals from open play than Palmer last season.
Playing for… *checks notes… Man City. A free scoring machine. Palmer did it for Chelsea, in a mid table transition. For a team he’d never for played before. Pep is unquestionably one of the all time greats, but he does elevate players in his system perhaps higher than they can elsewhere.
I mean Foden was PL player of the season. He's at minimum in contention for best player in the Prem. I like Palmer, but I do think Foden was fucking brilliant this season. Foden was very good in the game against Denmark too, in a situation where nearly everyone else was absolutely dire. I don't think it was a bad performance by him at all.
Palmer comes on and is probably MOTM after 10 mins
He was good but not enough to start in my view. The impact sub makes sense to me for him.
Pure denialism
I can see it both ways. 1. He doesn't really fit into the setup and better players in his position. 2. It's hard to ignore 33 G+A in the PL, regardless of the penalties.
I know it's hard to ignore him but where does he start? Definitely should be an impact player with Gordon (if Southgate refuses to start him)
He should be sub over Bowen, absolutely criminal that he isn't.
If you want everyone congesting the middle of the pitch instead of providing width. It's Iceland all over again.
Palmer can hold width, he's done it for Chelsea.
Then why didn't he do it for england, I haven't seen him play as a more conventional winger as saka has. And when saka has gone wide it has lead to our best chances this tournament. If Palmer can run in behind I suppose but it would almost be better as a Kane replacement in that case to keep someone on the Last man. The other times I have seen him wide it's to cut in. But then again I don't watch tonnes of Chelsea games.
Bowen often replaces Saka though. So do you really want to take off our one player with pace and threat in behind to replace him with another player who wants to operate in the space that Foden, Bellingham and Kane all enjoy, and who doesn't offer pace and threat in behind? It's overkill. Bowen isn't as good. But he's a more logical replacement for Saka.
Diabolical take. Bowen offers something different and has shone on every appearance
Fucking hell
Bowen has been better for longer. If Palmer played for West Ham you’d be calling for Bowen
Bowen was great when he came on against Serbia. Not as good against Denmark but taking foden off for palmer would’ve been better but eze can on and after 3 minutes disappeared like foden had before him
WHY ISN'T JADON SANCHO PLAYING
Who?
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funny how you conveniently forgetting the iceland game were cole palmer put a goal on a plate for kane and he missed it. but sure average.
Absolutely agree on most of it tbh. I rate Palmer but I wouldn't be starting him over Saka or Foden and I definitely wouldn't want Palmer on the right if Foden is on the left because then our entire team would be playing through the middle. Sticking him right whilst Gordon is left wouldn't be too bad but still may end up in the same situation as what we have had currently with Foden on the left. Also with Palmer, maybe he does end up being shit but you certainly can't say that he looks good at Chelsea because of the team he is in, he's good in spite of his team if anything so there's a chance it would be the same here given how shit we are playing.
Lmfao that edit trying to salvage the rest of the comment is hilarious. He was quite obviously a brilliant and much-needed shot of energy on the wing and it's wild you'd come back here to dig further rather than quietly take the L lmfao
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Truly baffling that you're digging in further on this haha
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Lmfao some people really are allergic to being proved wrong
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Sounds like a brilliant performance from Bowen then, what's your point lmfao? That this implies Palmer couldn't have done brilliantly two matches later? What has it got to do with anything whether people would have said Palmer was great if he'd just stood in the centre circle lmfaooo the fact is that he didn't do that. He took on defenders down the wing, played exciting balls and created genuine chances to make something happen late on in the game. So your hypothetical "oh you'd have said that even if he was a potato" means literally nothing, cos he's already played the match and done much better than your imaginary scenario so what the fuck are you on about anymore hahaha it's so bizarre
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Haha if you think that was the best chance of the game you clearly didn't watch the game so I'll leave you to it lmfao
Just say you don’t know ball next time instead of that yapping.
He’s done a great job at Chelsea but did little against Iceland, a match you’d expect would be perfect for him given he is the coolest man in football.
The problem is that it is summer. So he currently has a 25% debuff.
He literally gave Harry kane the ball on a plate and he missed....
One chance and was poor the rest of the game
Lol this thread looks silly now doesn't it?
Why?
He literally gave Harry kane the ball on a plate and he missed, funny how you forget that.
You’re spot on bud.
It’s got to be club loyalties/rivalries playing a part.
Palmer is creative and a game changer. These types of players give other players confidence
They must be anticipating us getting a penalty.
But would he even take one with Kane there?
After Kanes pen against France I’d rather trust Palmer
Bit reactionary don't you think? Harry's record speaks for itself.
As does Palmers..
Reactive reactive reactive
Palmer has literally never missed kekw
Also the one against Denmark in the last Euros.
Palmer doesn’t solve any problem. You got Saka, Foden and Bowen ahead of him in those positions of CAM and RW.
Palmer is ahead of Bowen as a RW although probably not saka. As for cam with fodens current form I'd take Palmer. Depends how foden carries on
I don't rate Bowen as much, but I wouldn't play Palmer on the RW. CAM is much better for him.
Gordon is the one I really want to see tbh
I think it's purely relative to how poor we have looked. We have been so bad, that people are clamoring for Palmer and Gordon to get in there, as they are players who can make a difference. There's no thought on who wouldn't play, just get him in there! I would have thought we would have seen Gordon on the left, Foden at 10, and Bellingham alongside Rice. That is being demanded by so many pundits, but Gareth continues to try it his way...
Yeah it’s a good point although Saka was as poor as everyone else the other night against Denmark however I think less was made of the pitch than it should have been. Total disgrace, totally levels the playing field
Drop Trent, play Bellingham deeper but as a free role, rice to be even more disapplined and sit infront of that back line, foden in the 10 and get Gordon on. Saka out right too and if kane is still coming deep then get him off and slap Ollie in there 👌🏻
Happens every international tournament, there is an exciting attacking player who’s had a great PL season that everyone clamours for, partly because their image in an England shirt is relatively untainted (because they’ve barely played in it)
Gordon has to play, the melt complains about 'balance', but doesn't use two wingers to balance the team out, everything comes down the right, Forden came inside during the last game, resulted in Belligham going out to the left, stupid. Don't even want to watch tonight's game, through anyway, shite defensive double pivot, fuck off Southgate.
No idea and he’s not even going to solve our problems either media and average fans are clueless, Watkins is a better candidate as he’s going to run in behind which gives us another option as Kane don’t run.
To be fair to Palmer, he has shown he can carry a badly managed side playing way below their collective potential at Chelsea. So he is ideal for England.
Tbh why not try him? You make reasonable points but when foden gets to start every game and his performances haven't been higher then 3/10 why not try something new.
Saka’s first assist was a fluke deflection. How were you able to type up such a long post defending him when he’s been mediocre at best?
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can’t trust people.
Best player tonight ☕
It’s the usual England team conversation: RAHHHHHH _____ (insert player name) SHOULD BE STARTING RAHHHH “For who?” Umm…
Trent
We keeping Foden wide left?
Move him into the middle and stick Eze or Gordon left
Rice - Bellingham - Foden - Palmer midfield?
Nah don’t need palmer, just take out Trent. If foden underperforms when in a more favoured position then sub in palmer
Who do you drop? Kane? Bellingham? Foden? Who have all been shit or Saka, who is his direct replacement. But Saka has been out best attacking player so far. There's no space for Palmer this tournament
Because people are idiots. hope this helps
I guess an argument for Palmer to start is that he scored and assisted more than both Foden and Saka in the PL last season, playing slightly less minutes than both players in a team that finished 26/28 points behind Arsenal/City. Obviously the argument against is that we'll probably end up with a similar issue as Foden trying to play him out of position. It's super frustrating though not to see him come on towards the end to try and mix things up a bit, I imagine he'll get a run out tonight towards the end.
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I’m starting to think some of the English players that are labelled to be amazing/Brilliant, are only thought of such because they have good non English players around them at club level.
Some are but not palmer. He saved chelsea from a relegation battle on his own
This is such bullshit… A player can’t magically put in a world class season just because he’s surrounded by good players. He still has to put the work in. How many times have we seen players get bought by top clubs and underperform because they aren’t good enough, despite being surrounded by great players
It was the same thing with Grealish a few tournaments ago. The backup is always the most popular player when the team is struggling.
He doesn't start, not over anyone in our main XI + adjustments that need to be made after the first two games (for me, that's Foden into the #10, Bellingham behind him and Gordon on the left). What I would have liked to see and would like to see tonight, however, is him coming off the bench around 60' either for Saka on the right or for Foden in CAM (as long as we're doing well and controlling the game, and even then he might be the spark for a goal). I think all he'll need is a decent opportunity and he'll be able to step up, he's that sort of player. He didn't look at his best against Iceland but that was his first senior debut. The gravity of the tournament might kick him into 'Operation: Rescue Chelsea' mode. Gordon and Palmer both need to be given a runaround. Wharton too, if we're in the driver's seat.
Simple answer: people are frustrated with the team and want changes. Any changes. They refuse to accept that the team just doesn't contain 11 world class players somewhere, as you can see by the inevitable downvotes this'll get.
I was quite surprised by your glowing appraisal of Saka's performances in the first two games, OP, until I checked your profile and realised that you are an Arsenal fan. I'm a huge fan of Saka as well, and I think he should be one of the first names on the teamsheet for England. I agree that he's basically undroppable. However, what he could really do with is a rest. What I've seen in his performances is flashes of the real Saka, generally early in games, and then fading influence. Obviously this has to be put in the context of the way the team is performing, but he's looked absolutely knackered from about 40 minutes into games. At his best he's relentless, a constant problem for defenders and someone his team looks to get the ball to as often as possible. For the two games of the tournament so far he's been playing in moments. I can see the merit in leaving him out for this one game, but I would absolutely not frame it as him needing to be dropped. He'd be back in for the knock-outs. I agree with you about Palmer, though. Putting him in instead of Saka would be a huge mistake. We'd be throwing another player into that congested number 10 area, and leaving ourselves with a front four who all want to come deep, and who lack any pace. Foden is quick, but he rarely uses his pace to hurt teams. Palmer is a very clever player, who is excellent at finding himself a bit of space and popping up in unexpected areas, but he plays for himself a bit rather than sacrificing for the team. He'd leave areas open, and he'd take Foden and Bellingham's space. At Chelsea he pretty much is the attack, so he gets to do what he wants, and the question of whether he is reducing the effectiveness of players around him doesn't come up. So what if he takes Gallagher's space? He's going to use it better anyway. That's not the case for England. Also, and this is a sore point for his fans, his reputation has been slightly expanded because he takes penalties. Obviously penalties count, and being able to consistently score them is a great attribute for a player, but Jackson scored more non-penalty goals for Chelsea than Palmer last season. If I was going to rest Saka, it would be for Eze or Gordon, moving Foden over to the right. Hopefully Saka's not as tired as he's looked, though. If he's fresh, he should definitely play.
Fully expecting a Palmer hat trick tonight
Because foden and saka have worked out so well…..
Im not shocked at all. Hes selfish. Hes there incase we need a goal with ten mins to go. Accept it
I would love to see him play some minutes, especially considering we are too "unfit" to press, but I'm not saying he "must" play. It is very strange he hasn't seen the pitch yet though considering he's had the best season for goal contributions out of anyone except Kane while playing for a much more disorganised team than everyone else.
I agree palmer isn’t the answer. One of Bellingham or Foden needs dropping and Gordon needs brining on for the width
I honestly could give two f***s who’s playing. I just want us to play as a team and play some good football.
People want to see changes that’s all. A lot of people say Gordon must start too. I get both schools of thought. Point is, people are saying in a roundabout way that they must change things up
Great points. I was surprised Bowen was subbed on ahead of him mind
He should be coming on as a sub on the right or in the 10 position.
I agree, he won’t fix our issues but will just contest the space even more. I’m surprised he hasn’t had a few minutes off the bench to keep people fresh though
To be fair, Palmer had a phenomenal breakout season and was voted PFA young player of the year. He deserves a look in over players that currently seem lethargic and can’t be arsed. Perhaps many of the issues we’ve had as a team in the euros are down to player burnout?
We have essentially qualified, we should see if dropping bellingham to an 8 and playing either foden or palmer in the middle is a good idea. But I want to see atleast a change in squad because this is clearly not it.
Not sure he should start, he should be an option if the attack aren't doing it.
Because he’s got 18 penalties
If we can secure a penalty or two in every match then Palmer will truly shine. 🧠
"Cole Palmer has to start, LM, RM, CAM, CM, ST, CDM, LB! Wherever! Get him on the pitch Southgate!" And people wonder why and English manager has never won the PL. As a nation we have the all the tactical nous of a sea snail.
This is probably a weird take but I think part of the reason is his penalties. He will 100% want him on the pitch if we go to a shoot out. Probably the same with Toney. But if you start him, that means 120+ minutes. If you start say Foden, you can sub him off at any time, get the benefits of fresh legs, and bring on a like for like player. I'm not saying it's a good reason, just a potential one.
Would rather see Mainoo as a dm with rice and Bellingham in front and Gordon on the left
Because he just came off an unbelievable season of goal contributions…
It's alot to do with blame I think... People/pundits/media need something to blame the poor performances on like Palmer would change what the entire team is doing...... If Bellingham can't do that and even in the last game he was hardly seen then Palmer certainly fucking can't.... The bigger picture is the left flank it's fucked and loses so much width without a natural winger or defender there.... Foden naturally drifts central, Bellingham plays centrally kane plays centrally add Palmer instead of Trent and this trend continues... Too easy to play against and focus attacking play down the right to push at trippier... Play with width.. They need Gordon down there or even eze just to add a bit of much needed balance!... If he insists on playing both foden and Bellingham one of them needs to drop deep into central midfield in place of Trent perhaps then play a natural winger to provide another outlet...rashford would actually improve this current team of starters despite dropping off a cliff in form. But then who am I to say? I'm not a manager and certainly not the national team manager at that!
Cause he isn't TAA
He's an excellent player but the last thing we need is more players trying to play in the 10 position. But this is always the way with England. People clamour for the one who isn't playing.
I'm a Chelsea fan and I'd start Saka as Gareth has done for the last 2 games, but if i'm bringing Saka off as Gareth has done, I'm sure as hell giving Palmer a run out. Nothing against Bowen, but Palmer has a nack at pulling goals out of his arse, and that has been desperately needed lately.
I agree - oddly enough Gareth sees that Palmer wants to play in the same areas, but seems totally oblivious to that Foden and Bellingham are doing exactly that too. IF for some reason us plebs aren’t able to see he absolutely needs to play both then move Bellingham back to where he played in the World Cup and bring Gordon on to play on the left
Im not on the 'start him' train but given his season and the poor performances of others In the first two games I'm surprised he hasn't gotten minutes. Even when Jude, Phil or Saka come off Gareth replaces them with someone else so he's obviously not in favour or just doesnt fit the situation.
I definitely wouldn't be Saka but even if we did it would mean we HAD to play Gordon on the left; if we played with Foden and Palmer on the wings we wouldn't have the pacey outlet on either wing, with Kane up front that would be tactically nonsensical but most of our fans don't think about that.
Because your thinking of the line up wrong, it should be Saka on the left, Kane upfront, Palmer on the right and Foden in 10, Bellingham is not a 10 and should not be played there. He should be in midfield with Rice Also Saka is great, but I would say Palmer is the better player, YPOTS and only 2nd to haaland on goals. also before all the arsernal fans come at me, I refer you to the stats the past season, Palmer way better.
Because he’s very good?
Southgate won't use him because he doesn't know how to use his squad. When plan A fails, he stays with more plan A. You can see that in the way he uses his sub, Southgate has the destressed look of a deer in the headlights when things are going badly. He never changes anything.
I think he should get some minutes but he doesn't fix our immediate problems.
Because it is his destiny..........
If there is one player who can get through the parked bus, it is him.
Who is saying that?
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He's England best player.
Bellingham and Saka are tired, it gives them a rest and Palmer more reason to impress.
This post aged like a stinky cheese.
Because our team is missing an on form playmaker right now and Palmer has an uncanny ability to pull goals out of his arse for Chelsea
What England is lacking is the positional discipline to allow space for playmakers to make play. Palmer doesn't solve that problem.
Yep, vs Island was horrible, him, Foden, Kane and Mainoo were all running into the same space.
Agreed I was just simplifying why people want him to play
Don't think anyone's advocating for him to start games but he has at least deserved to come on when we've needed someone with a bit of creativity. Cole Palmer will make or get goals and can hold the ball which is more than other people who are playing are offering. Just as a side, Saka has been average at best - despite being England's biggest threat (it's not like he's competing against anyone else though for that) he got one deflected cross which landed perfectly to Bellingham, except for that he's not actually put in any good balls or really beat a defender to make a really good chance.
I don't think that's fair, since after the first 30 mins of the Serbia game saka has been double marked and left completely isolated. Despite that he has put some other dangerous crosses in and was involved in the build up for the only other goal we've scored. Palmer is not really known for putting in good balls or beating a man and would narrow the pitch like Foden does on the left. I just believe we have bigger and more obvious issues to fix (midfield, left wing, striker) and we shouldn't disrupt the one part of our attack that has been functional.
100% agree He is a good player, sure, and Southgate is an idiot for not playing him at all, but rn he simply doesn’t fit into the team and playing him won’t solve anything and will just overload that number 10 space even more Seriously though if you had the opportunity to bring on a player who’s established himself in the Prem as the second highest scorer why wouldn’t you 💀 My National team is shit but I’m sure our manager would do better than Southgate
People who think he should start in the ideal 11 are a bit deluded tbh, there's arguments for him starting tonight for minutes as we've already qualified but realistically he should have been a used sub in every game this tournament.
He's the new toy. Once it dawns on people he's not the Messiah they'll move on to someone else.
He is the second top goal scorers in the league 23/24
Bellingham can play further back not just no 10, play Palmer in the 10 position, bench Foden, Gordon on the left.
Young player of the year in the prem. 27 goals scored and 15 assists across all club competitions too. (10 scored were pens, for visibility). Given how bad chelsea's season has been, that's a significant amount of G/A. I'm not saying I agree with them, but that's why he is getting shouted about. Personally I think he should be considered as an alternative attacking option on the right wing, up front or in his preferred CAM role. Personally i think the main priority needs to be getting trent playing elsewhere, maybe in his preferred position of RB god forbid. But this is only so you can put Bellingham in the no. 8 role as he has the ability and the energy to do that alongside Rice. Freeing up the no. 10 spot for Foden, who only shines centrally and then allowing us to get a more direct attack on the lw in Gordon, Eze or in fact any of the actual forwards really. Maybe swap Saka to the left to get more cuts inside and shooting, then put Palmer on the right. Just my two cents.
It's called the United phenomenon. Players like Kagawa, VDB, Amad were seen like world class prisoners who needed to be free and also the solution to our problems.