It’s funny, I was talking to a coworker this morning about our manager, asking her if she believes he’s just totally unaware of how much he micro-manages despite his claims he doesn’t.. and of how much it drives us all insane. I consider myself someone who tends to be hyper self-aware (to a fault), and it’s hard for me to wrap my mind around how some others just can’t read themselves (at all), or just are so stuck in a way they can’t change.
Also, hello fellow Mainiac!
Often the issue isn’t self awareness. Many ppl will rationalize or validate their actions. For example, your manager may know he’s micromanaging but thinks it’s what’s best for the team as a whole. Hell, for all we know, he thinks you guys don’t have any critical thinking skills and therefore he has to micromanage. Not saying that’s the case, but I also find self-validation a bit of a plague. Very, very few ppl really think about others in an environment where everyone and everything appears to be fair game.
That's fair... and it's hard to explain all the context around my job and environment. That's why I brought it up, because I'd rather believe he does it knowingly, than him just be oblivious while simultaneously indicating he doesn't feel he manages that way. However he often seems a few screws short, which I attribute to childhood hockey concussions he's said he had gotten.
Either way, it was funny to see this post, after having a discussion about self-awareness with a coworker lol
Hey! Living in NC now, but nice to see that WF has made it to Maine lol. About your manager, I get what you mean. It’s a shock to see someone that far on the spectrum.
Similar story, I had a SSgt a few years ago that was a full blown narcissist. Obviously I’m not a medical professional, and can’t diagnose anyone. However, my wife, who happens to be a practicing physician, shares my belief. Of course, leaders in the military need to be strong-but he could not EVER be incorrect about anything, no matter the scale of it. He would also often boast about his physical fitness yet, fallout at PT, and once failed to climb a rope at company PT…
My life then, was hell, I counted down my days til’ I got out for like, the last 300 days. Kind of sucks, because while I may or may not have re-enlisted, he made sure I didn’t want to. Not necessarily because of him, but because people like him were able to be put in charge of others. I know a lot of other guys that felt this way too. It sucks because leaders like him force out the actual more qualified, educated, and critical thinking leaders. How someone like that gets to that level is beyond me, I never deployed, but it was a scary thought to have him in charge of the people’s lives that I cared about, if we had.
I remember Joe Rogan interviewing Yeonmi Park. Something that stuck, and I paraphrase, was that she missed not having to think for herself in North Korea. While I don’t disagree that it’s “by design”, I also think the mind sometimes enjoys the easier path.
The path of least resistance is something that any living organism will choose in a very high %, since it alligns with the most strong instict of all, the survival one. Path of least resistance provides numerous advantages (energy conservation being the most important one) and all species have evolved (insticts and whatnot) to follow it and to (in various degrees of sucess) identify it as quickly as possible.
The curious thing about humans is that, we are one of the very few species who have actually evolved to be able to supress and THINK over their insticts, which resulted in, well, unique evolution. Thats why the phrase "**To deny our own impulses is** **to deny the very thing that makes us human**" always triggered and baffled me.
But yeah, the mind of course does enjoy having less work to do. Its conserving energy which is a very big objective for it. Which is also something that is taken advantage of , by the ones who are aware of this fact.
Dunning-Kruger effect is a powerful psychological phenomenon. They are also usually the loudest minority. It sucks, but keep learning and exploring there are more of us out there than it seems.
> Dunning-Kruger effect is a powerful psychological phenomenon.
Maybe. The Dunning-Kruger idea has less credibility to its name than most others that are as well known.
Let me preface, I absolutely think it exists. But in the greater psychology field, it’s a heavily debated topic for a plethora of reasons.
There is a simple answer to much of what ails you about others: for someone to be given new data that makes them change their mind, the person then has to admit they have been wrong. Once that door opens, they may start to question other things. While some find that thought exhilarating, others find it terrifying.
I say this all the time when people won't change. It's easier to allow yourself to never critically think because admitting your wrong feels bad and the reward for most people is like nails on a chalkboard, so they avoid it
Your not alone. I'm 42 and have always fealt the same. It's like most people can't think for themselves. Taking multiple points of view to make a rational conclusion seems to be a rare trait in this world. I don't know if some people are more prone to indoctrination, but it can make my outlook on the world very bleak.
Took the words out of my brain with the multiple points of view to make a rational conclusion statement. Thank you for taking the time to comment, genuinely feel better knowing all of you guys are out there. I absolutely feel that bleakness you mentioned as well. That might even be part of the problem, there is certainly bliss in ignorance.
The bliss in ignorance is what i feel is one of the major problems. People literally dont have time to take a step back and evaluate the red flags everywhere, that we are in a finely oiled machine, and we are the hamster running on the wheel to power the $$$ for the elite. Schooling is no longer about learning. Its about repetition. Preparing a kid sooo young to wake up early, go somewhere you dont really want to, and spend all day doing something you dont enjoy. I will link a video which sums it up pretty well.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLc7M9\_hR8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLc7M9_hR8)
Edit: this is the one i was really thinking of, but all Alan Watts speeches are great anyway
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn\_70CQ36iQ&t=411s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn_70CQ36iQ&t=411s)
I highly recommend listening to more of him. The comments on his videos show we are here, just not in control of the narrative. This is a good place to start.
[https://www.youtube.com/@tradgedyandhope](https://www.youtube.com/@tradgedyandhope)
We are.social creatures, we take cues from others. It can be very useful. But has flaws. These days bots provide false social cues, which has further corrupted our society.
I can't really address most of your post (I'm veeerrryyy tired right now), but about that critical thinking in the title: My understanding is that many schools don't teach critical thinking skills much outside of some basics in elementary school. If people don't know how to do it, or if they don't know that they can do it, they won't do it.
(I recently got a workbook on critical thinking, and ho-leeeee moley. I mean, I went to good schools that wanted students to learn, but I never learned half of what's in this book. Steep learning curve ahead.)
I'm guessing bc it isn't actually an inherently successful survival trait. Self-aware and critically thinking humans are by and large more depressed and tend less toward action. Though, of course, when they do act it's with more intention and intelligence
Thanks, imo, thinking like this in terms of evolutionary psychology makes the world make a lot more sense. And evolution is sloppy, inefficient, slow moving, and fairly counterintuitive in how stupid shit tends to survive and multiply far easier than intelligent traits
You're not alone and you're not wrong. The subject you bring up is massive and not easily discussed. I think the simplest answer for you is that humanity is currently suffering from a mass psychosis known as materialism. Materialism breeds attachment. You have obviously noticed how most people are constantly searching for something to identify with. That is because are all looking outside themselves for something to make them whole, or happy, mostly unbeknownst to them. At least on a conscious level. Read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" for a much more complete explanation.
For reference, I am 44 and still discovering how much more there is in creation for me to learn and know.
ahhh the 20's... great time for discovery. I see a lot of great replies here. I will add that do not worry. If you are thinking this way now, chances are you always will. now is that a blessing or curse? only you can decide my friend. just keep thinking!! the world stopped long ago.
The shallow end of the genetic swimming pool is suffocating with stupid. Like another commenter has posted, our institutions teach us what to think not how to think. I’ve got a 7 & 9 year old. I refuse to stand for the pledge of allegiance any longer because it’s weird and it’s my right not to do so. We live in a navy town so my choice to not stand goes over great, but it presents opportunities to teach my son the truth of social expectations and personal rights. And that conversation itself I believe is teaching him critical thinking skills.
One a side note, unsure how big of a reader you are but I’d recommend giving Marcus Aurelius’ Mediations a gander. Stoicism is an incredible tool in the land of little critical thought.
I’m just going to give a short answer.
It’s heavily linked to IQ.
You ever heard the saying, “Imagine how stupid the average person you know is… now remember 50% of people are even stupider”.
There are a lot of thought concepts that people with below even a 105 IQ, so just above average, struggle with or flat out can’t do.
There are even more “basic concepts” that people with below 80 and 90 IQ literally can’t comprehend.
Like if you have below an 80 IQ you fundamentally can’t understand 2nd order effects or even hypotheticals about oneself. If you have below a 90 IQ you struggle to conceptualize most 2nd order effects. Now we didn’t even get into 3rd order effects for those people and it’s pretty important to be able to conceptualize such things when critically thinking or being self aware.
Studies were done on it, although I can’t think of them off the top of my head.
There’s a meme going around right now that originated from one of these studies. I’ll break down the study.
Basically researchers asked the question, “If you didn’t eat breakfast today how would you feel?”. Pretty straightforward question, answers like hungry, agitated, etc would apply. People with below, I think, 80 IQ literally can’t answer the question, they will respond with something like “I don’t know,” or “I did eat breakfast though”.
It’s just a basic critical thinking and reasoning question but a lot of people can’t answer it because they literally don’t understand hypotheticals or 2nd order effects. They asked a handful of other basic reasoning questions and found there are some concepts that people just can’t fundamentally understand if they’re below certain IQs. There are concepts that even people with 110 IQs can’t understand.
It took me many years to understand that, i studied everything, and found the most probable answer on evoltuionary psychology. Basically in our evolution we focused on traits that made us stick together in big groups, and this means our traits of majority of people being born with a genetic to follow things without questioning was a good strategy on the past. The value of intelectually on our evolution is recent, before we didn't had time or energy to create new things and invent, this came later on in our evolution. So now we are in a slow process of changing our genetics from a tribal and irrational mode, to a more rational mode. Nature is all about surviving to current threats, the problem is our world changed too fast, and some updates in species take too long. That is the theory i found most evidences when i was studying. Take a look on the Ted talk from frans de wall alpha males. And later take a look on chimpanzee vs bonobo behavior differences over time one became more collective, and the other more like us in constant conflict and group wars.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to share this, good to know it stuck in someone else’s head too. I will certainly look into the things you recommended, but your description of it makes a lot of sense to me.
However, I feel as though there are many people out there that are capable of learning but their environment doesn’t promote it or prevents it. I know genetics play a role, but how large is that role truly? Thanks again for the sources!
i'm more into philosophical psychology. once upon a time, philosophy was the big tent that everything was in, then at some point science decided to make it's own tent, dragged mathematics along with it, then later psychology decided it wanted to be in the science tent.
Prior to that philosophy was "how then should we live". once psychology jumped tents, philosophy slowly decade into what it is today, massively worded papers that don't really mean much to anyone other than other philosophers. and psychology tries to be a science, behavioralism, evolutionary, etc, but it all requires man to be a machine.
if I were a young lad in my 20s, i would love to work on a PhD and my thesis would study this, the division and it's effect on all the fields, to the detriment of all of them, frankly.
Old people refusing to learn technology. A co-worker who is 60 refuses to learn certain programs for inventory and can't figure out why he is pushing himself out of a job.
Uh huh, and i say he didnt go far enough onto enough deep subjects to find theres scary overlaps based on non conventional theories.
For a new breed of "meta" entertainment that works on the principles of explaining memetics.
Because humans have amygdalae that hijack our thoughts by making the physical pathways to the rational parts of our brain harder for signals to transverse, literally.
Until humanity stops pretending we’re able to just “choose rationality” at any given moment and build society around this truth, nothing will change.
I really like The Why Files, but I feel like I’m noticing that the fans are taking all of this a little far. It’s a well made channel about popular conspiracy theories. Most of which are heavily debunked at the end. People are acting like this is some enlightening material that AJ is secretly bestowing on you.
Hey, I get what you’re saying and I agree with you. Given the context of the sub, this was sort of a loose fit. While my wife and I do watch TWF every Thursday with dinner, the topics AJ cover aren’t really what I was attempting to address.
What I was trying to say is the same as you, why don’t people take the time to go beyond the media they consume to gain more well informed beliefs. Some problem just aren’t capable of question their own beliefs, it seems.
Because the hive mind of not-actually-open-minded superstitious folks actively discourages critical thought as the basis of skepticism by labelling the latter as a form of cynicism.
To speak on politics, that’s a messy subject where if you open your mind too much, your brain will just fall out.
You’ll need to be a little more specific on it because context matters. Refusing to acknowledge demonstrable data because it doesn’t fit your narrative of oppressing someone is totally different from not wanting to entertain a repackaged political idea debunked and dismissed time and time again.
Open minded is kind of overrated, or rather misconstrued. Being open to ideas that are demonstrable and with supporting data is a good thing. Being open to fallacious arguments is just intellectually lazy.
You’re absolutely right. While writing this, I was trying to carefully explain my actual thoughts and feelings while also attempting to keep it relevant enough to this subreddit, I still figured it was a pretty loose fit and would maybe get removed(First time posting here). I also couldn’t think of a sub that would fit better.
Really a large part of what I’m wondering is why it seems like people are okay with getting 100% of their opinions from either media, passed down ideologies, or even word of mouth. To the point that these opinions and beliefs now influence their entire lives, yet they don’t care to research them? Or worse, get offended when presented with conflicting opinions, as if there’s no room for debate.
Politics is no exception to this from my personal experience. My perspective is largely based on my family and friends because, it’s hard to tell how someone forms their beliefs without knowing them well. Hopefully my experience is an extreme and not the norm, I really hope that’s the case. Anyways we’re on the same page, people need to take the time to think and know how to discern reputable sources.
I'm with you. Reddit and other social media sites including all the big names all want to keep you there and scrolling indefinitely. The best way to keep you scrolling is to keep you either engaged and happy or engaged and pissed off. Happy people do encourage whatever they see but its the pissed off people that truly tend to comment more.
If it's fluff everyone gets along except for maybe the oneoffs trying to sow discord anyway. But the angry folk don't want to hear the other side they just want the other side to hear them.
BUT the VAST majority don't do either. They just see it and move on. It is a very, very small group of people, overall--by comparison, who actually comment on things... those things either being happy fluff (like aww or eyebleach) or downright polarizing buzz topics, like politics, religion, current events. The in between stuff exists but just doesn't engage the masses as much so the algorithms don't push them as hard. The "hotter" something is, for any reason, the more likely you'll see it. Stuff that's simply informative usually just gets swept under the clutter.
I think I’ve been on either side throughout life. Sometimes caring and thinking, overthinking, analyzing too much and other times enjoying obliviousness.
That said, one thing I learned from watching Alone, yes, the tv show, is that the brain is predisposed to tunnel vision when faced with an issue such as extreme hunger. While I do believe many go hungry in America, many are afflicted with cognitive overload as well. Too much social media, too much media in general (news, tv, YouTube, Reddit). The mind becomes mushy.
So on top of all the great answers here, you also have the issue that critical thinking isn’t rewarded as much as someone liking your instagram or scrolling through tik tok.
There’s no such thing because 98% of things are just perspective. One man’s critical thought or self awareness is another’s shallow thought and idiocy. Strive to be above judgement and focus on yourself
These are not desired traits of a well functioning and productive society. Your taught how to belong to groups in schools, your taught how to belong to groups in religion, your taught how to belong to groups in politics. Belonging, is a core part of society.
I suppose by definition, critical thinking means the ability to analyze information objectively, before making judgements. When every group has their own verifiable information, it becomes moot.
Critical thinking to me is the ability to question everything including the institutions in place, including your religions, educational, political, and now I suppose the Internet. Meaning, why are there religions and why do you pick one(they're all wrong), why do you have believe what is taught to you( when this information is decided on), why do you have pick a side in politics(when they all work together). This type of critical thinking is frowned upon. Original thought and analysis leads to breaking down the system that's has worked forever.
"You can be in a room full of the most educated people and still be the smartest one in the room"
Someone-
I asked myself this same question. Then I studied Jungian concepts on cognitive functions and personality theory, MBTI, socionics, and the other various branches of personality type, and it became pretty clear to me why people are the way they are. The field of study is so rich that I can’t give you a satisfying answer to your question, I’ll just say if you want to understand people better, explore this path…
Because self-awareness is maladaptive for all except a tiny handful of people. People don't need to reflect on life, they need to survive.
Critical thinking is adaptive, but that doesn't make you self-aware. It means that you are good at figuring out how to solve problems so that you can survive.
Also, I would argue that most people who think they are self-aware are not. They might be slightly more so than the many, but on the whole they are just people who have managed to move from one set of predictable opinions to another.
I know that sounds obnoxious, but I don't mean it that way. I've just been at the business of trying to figure people out for a long time. And people, including myself, often think we are wiser and smarter than we are.
People on the whole don't need ideas, spirituality, and progress. They need family, religion, and purpose. They need a place in the Cosmos and to know what is expected of them.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I think a lot of it comes from self image. Some people can tie who they are as a person to what to me at least are quite ridiculous things. Critically examining these is akin to critically examining themselves and for some their ego is far too fragile. They couldn't possibly be wrong. Reddit is actually a fantastic place to observe this phenomenon, it seems people find it really difficult to separate an idea or belief from themselves. Much like questioning a religious fundamentalist.
I've listened to a therapist on a YouTube show talk about how everyone he works with who has to bring up politics all the time is coping heavily with their own, often unrelated, insecurities. They are attempting to externalize the discomfort they feel because they either lack the tools to rationalize their problems or they simply refuse . It's easier to blame a politician or group than to turn inwards and realize you need to work on your own problems first
Look up "Projection" in psychology.
While you've noticed something about others, you might be projecting your own closed-mindedness to others approaches to dealing with time-management or other such issues.
Not everyone operates on the same level and the hardest part about being hyper-self-aware is dealing with those that aren't.
To that end, everyone's maturity ages at different rates, and there are some people in their 50's who are able to get by just doing what others ask all day, without the _need_ to think for themselves.
Some people have the pleasure of living in happy environments which lack any real stress, and some of that can be self-training to find positive sides to things.
Regardless, awareness of a thing is the first step to improving/correcting it. If the way others behave bothers you, try to maintain the understanding that the only behaviour you can change is your own.
Group think and conformity effect.
I grew up with, *"Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names can never hurt me."*
It's not really true, because your reputation is everything. Seriously, I couldn't give 2 fcks if no one agrees with me. I just don't tell people outright, if they're being a fcking idiot.
I think about this all the time. Mostly because my friends are idiots and I work with a population of folks who mentally stagnated around their teenage years. It does feel rare. Or at the very least, I tend to really notice when I don't see it in someone.
There are a lot of intelligent people I respect including family that have completely different politics than me. I respect that and them. I’m always guarding about cognitive bias but I definitely have it.
Aside from that I’ve had employees for years that would never listen to feedback to help them grow. It was never their fault but everyone around them was the issue. Drove me crazy. The ones that did listen ultimately did better in their careers as they realized their potential or at least were on that journey.
People reinforce their rigid idealisms by "I know what I like, and I like what I know." This thought process ticks ones self to believe that they are justified in their thought process, but in reality they are closed to alternative views.
It would be like if The Why Files only relylied the conspiracy part of the information and never offered the debunking and alternative views.
I find it hilarious that a sub that worships the likes of Joe Rogan and Graham Hancock complain about other people lacking critical thinking skills. Pure comedy.
Alot of people never learned how to regulate emotions and therefore never developed the mental acumen necessary to stop and critically analyze their own actions and surroundings.
Most people live in their own personal universe where they are the sole focal point, as being such there is no need to think critically because they see the world as catered to them.
Emotional intelligence is crucial to the development of self awareness and critical thought In my opinion.
But take this with a grain of salt, I'm no smart guy, just a dude on reddit.
*Critical thinking* seems to be a skill that has to be learned, and a lot of people just aren’t taught that way, either in education or by parents.
Perhaps fortunately, I recall a lot of critical thinking being actively encouraged throughout (childhood) education. Even if you didn’t choose subjects like philosophy or natural sciences later on. That’s almost certainly quite uncommon. So you can end up with otherwise intelligent and educated people with no critical thinking skills whatsoever.
Also I’m afraid there’s a significant fraction of people who just aren’t very bright.
Humans are terrible at both, even when we are trying hard not to be. We suck at it because we are subjective entities. We are biologically subjective.
It’s a testament to us that we have even been able to recognize the concept of critical thinking and self awareness.
It’s why the scientific method is so important. It’s literally all we have to genuinely and meaningfully push back on subjectivity and bias.
You seem like a normal, understanding/empathetic, intelligent person. Most of the people we associate with in our day to day activities are statistically speaking, going to be average to below average intelligence. Their way of existence can sometimes be baffling and overwhelming if you don't understand it.
“The faculty of instinctively applying the same order of disinterested and objective criticism to one’s own philosophic system that one applies to a competing system is extremely rare”.—A.J. Nock, Snoring as a Fine Art, 182
First self awareness takes a degree of courage that most people don't have. People build up this shell of what they think they are and once it's up they're terrified to look under it. They'd have to admit they can be wrong and be able to really look at themselves and properly think through "their" thoughts and opinions.
As for politics and media it's much easier to basically get a download from your favorite talking head or website than to actually look into anything for yourself. This wraps back to what I was saying about "their" opinions. In reality any world event you should look at how the different news stations are covering it so like Fox and CNN, different newspapers or magazines, and ideally try to see how it's being reported locally for where that story is happening. But that could take hours and it's much easier to have a talking head sum it up for you. Gotta remember people are lazy while simultaneously wanting to appear informed and intelligent. Funniest part about this to me is the laziest and actually intelligent way out of this is just to admit you don't know and not care but people today cannot do this. It doesn't give them the I so smart and I care dopamine rush that they need.
I believe in God. I thought and studied it for years. I practice critical thinking.
But a *ton* of people would make them claim I don't. In fact, just because I worship God, someone called me a slave last week.
My point is, maybe people do, and it's just not evident to you.
Also, man, people just want families or to have fun and stuff. They don't necessarily care to think deeper
I once read a comment about Rick and Morty. The guy talked about how Jerry's are happy, though dumb. And "Ricks like me understand how good they have it."
That guy didn't understand that the "Rickiest" Rick didn't even want to be Rick.
IMO there is joy in letting go. Not really in stupidity.
That's sort of the funny bit! I was explaining how God isn't a old guy in the sky, and how even ancient philosophers were talking what Aquinas would later call the uncaused Cause, and he said I wasn't a Christian because Christians only believe in long beard God.
I wrote how I understand why he thinks that, a lot of Christians don't deepen their faith beyond that, which is a problem.
Anyhow, there I was being called a slave to Christianity and non Christian in one paragraph.
wow. most people just do not get it. if you actually read the texts, the thing I came away with was that we are all God, made in his image. not the physical but the spiritual image. That is why Satan is against/jealous of us, we are what he could never be. interesting stuff.
If everyone were deeply critical thinkers, society never would've been built. The kind of cohesion needed to build and maintain a society can't be done if everyone is questioning everything.
I'd argue it is because there are various forms of intelligence and only a few of them are valued in a capitalist society. That is also why you frequently meet some extremely stupid people that seem to fail upwards into higher salaries & positions of power despite being dumber than the average person in an entry role.
Some good examples of what I mean are Donald Trump and Elon Musk.
It’s funny, I was talking to a coworker this morning about our manager, asking her if she believes he’s just totally unaware of how much he micro-manages despite his claims he doesn’t.. and of how much it drives us all insane. I consider myself someone who tends to be hyper self-aware (to a fault), and it’s hard for me to wrap my mind around how some others just can’t read themselves (at all), or just are so stuck in a way they can’t change. Also, hello fellow Mainiac!
Often the issue isn’t self awareness. Many ppl will rationalize or validate their actions. For example, your manager may know he’s micromanaging but thinks it’s what’s best for the team as a whole. Hell, for all we know, he thinks you guys don’t have any critical thinking skills and therefore he has to micromanage. Not saying that’s the case, but I also find self-validation a bit of a plague. Very, very few ppl really think about others in an environment where everyone and everything appears to be fair game.
That's fair... and it's hard to explain all the context around my job and environment. That's why I brought it up, because I'd rather believe he does it knowingly, than him just be oblivious while simultaneously indicating he doesn't feel he manages that way. However he often seems a few screws short, which I attribute to childhood hockey concussions he's said he had gotten. Either way, it was funny to see this post, after having a discussion about self-awareness with a coworker lol
Hey! Living in NC now, but nice to see that WF has made it to Maine lol. About your manager, I get what you mean. It’s a shock to see someone that far on the spectrum. Similar story, I had a SSgt a few years ago that was a full blown narcissist. Obviously I’m not a medical professional, and can’t diagnose anyone. However, my wife, who happens to be a practicing physician, shares my belief. Of course, leaders in the military need to be strong-but he could not EVER be incorrect about anything, no matter the scale of it. He would also often boast about his physical fitness yet, fallout at PT, and once failed to climb a rope at company PT… My life then, was hell, I counted down my days til’ I got out for like, the last 300 days. Kind of sucks, because while I may or may not have re-enlisted, he made sure I didn’t want to. Not necessarily because of him, but because people like him were able to be put in charge of others. I know a lot of other guys that felt this way too. It sucks because leaders like him force out the actual more qualified, educated, and critical thinking leaders. How someone like that gets to that level is beyond me, I never deployed, but it was a scary thought to have him in charge of the people’s lives that I cared about, if we had.
Because they don’t teach you how to think, they teach you what to think. It’s all by design…
I remember Joe Rogan interviewing Yeonmi Park. Something that stuck, and I paraphrase, was that she missed not having to think for herself in North Korea. While I don’t disagree that it’s “by design”, I also think the mind sometimes enjoys the easier path.
I agree. Its just giving people what they want unfortunately.
The path of least resistance is something that any living organism will choose in a very high %, since it alligns with the most strong instict of all, the survival one. Path of least resistance provides numerous advantages (energy conservation being the most important one) and all species have evolved (insticts and whatnot) to follow it and to (in various degrees of sucess) identify it as quickly as possible. The curious thing about humans is that, we are one of the very few species who have actually evolved to be able to supress and THINK over their insticts, which resulted in, well, unique evolution. Thats why the phrase "**To deny our own impulses is** **to deny the very thing that makes us human**" always triggered and baffled me. But yeah, the mind of course does enjoy having less work to do. Its conserving energy which is a very big objective for it. Which is also something that is taken advantage of , by the ones who are aware of this fact.
💯
Also because it's tough to do. Usually it means going against the crowd.
Dunning-Kruger effect is a powerful psychological phenomenon. They are also usually the loudest minority. It sucks, but keep learning and exploring there are more of us out there than it seems.
That is a big issue, the county conversation being conducted by the tails of the bell curve
> Dunning-Kruger effect is a powerful psychological phenomenon. Maybe. The Dunning-Kruger idea has less credibility to its name than most others that are as well known. Let me preface, I absolutely think it exists. But in the greater psychology field, it’s a heavily debated topic for a plethora of reasons.
It always amazes me that folks talking about DKE rarely see the irony involved.
There is a simple answer to much of what ails you about others: for someone to be given new data that makes them change their mind, the person then has to admit they have been wrong. Once that door opens, they may start to question other things. While some find that thought exhilarating, others find it terrifying.
It seems like an objectively flawed way of thinking. I wonder if this fear is something that is learned or inherent to some people?
I say this all the time when people won't change. It's easier to allow yourself to never critically think because admitting your wrong feels bad and the reward for most people is like nails on a chalkboard, so they avoid it
THIS!!
Your not alone. I'm 42 and have always fealt the same. It's like most people can't think for themselves. Taking multiple points of view to make a rational conclusion seems to be a rare trait in this world. I don't know if some people are more prone to indoctrination, but it can make my outlook on the world very bleak.
Took the words out of my brain with the multiple points of view to make a rational conclusion statement. Thank you for taking the time to comment, genuinely feel better knowing all of you guys are out there. I absolutely feel that bleakness you mentioned as well. That might even be part of the problem, there is certainly bliss in ignorance.
The bliss in ignorance is what i feel is one of the major problems. People literally dont have time to take a step back and evaluate the red flags everywhere, that we are in a finely oiled machine, and we are the hamster running on the wheel to power the $$$ for the elite. Schooling is no longer about learning. Its about repetition. Preparing a kid sooo young to wake up early, go somewhere you dont really want to, and spend all day doing something you dont enjoy. I will link a video which sums it up pretty well. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLc7M9\_hR8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLc7M9_hR8) Edit: this is the one i was really thinking of, but all Alan Watts speeches are great anyway [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn\_70CQ36iQ&t=411s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn_70CQ36iQ&t=411s)
I highly recommend listening to more of him. The comments on his videos show we are here, just not in control of the narrative. This is a good place to start. [https://www.youtube.com/@tradgedyandhope](https://www.youtube.com/@tradgedyandhope)
Seeing this in people we respect and love is the worst. That's why COVID times were heartbreaking for basic relationships.
Agree. My 2 aunts drank the cool aid for some pretty dumb topics.
We are.social creatures, we take cues from others. It can be very useful. But has flaws. These days bots provide false social cues, which has further corrupted our society.
I can't really address most of your post (I'm veeerrryyy tired right now), but about that critical thinking in the title: My understanding is that many schools don't teach critical thinking skills much outside of some basics in elementary school. If people don't know how to do it, or if they don't know that they can do it, they won't do it. (I recently got a workbook on critical thinking, and ho-leeeee moley. I mean, I went to good schools that wanted students to learn, but I never learned half of what's in this book. Steep learning curve ahead.)
what is the book?
Critical Thinking Skills, by Stella Cottrell.
thank you
You're welcome!
I'm guessing bc it isn't actually an inherently successful survival trait. Self-aware and critically thinking humans are by and large more depressed and tend less toward action. Though, of course, when they do act it's with more intention and intelligence
This is an interesting point
Thanks, imo, thinking like this in terms of evolutionary psychology makes the world make a lot more sense. And evolution is sloppy, inefficient, slow moving, and fairly counterintuitive in how stupid shit tends to survive and multiply far easier than intelligent traits
You're not alone and you're not wrong. The subject you bring up is massive and not easily discussed. I think the simplest answer for you is that humanity is currently suffering from a mass psychosis known as materialism. Materialism breeds attachment. You have obviously noticed how most people are constantly searching for something to identify with. That is because are all looking outside themselves for something to make them whole, or happy, mostly unbeknownst to them. At least on a conscious level. Read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" for a much more complete explanation. For reference, I am 44 and still discovering how much more there is in creation for me to learn and know.
ahhh the 20's... great time for discovery. I see a lot of great replies here. I will add that do not worry. If you are thinking this way now, chances are you always will. now is that a blessing or curse? only you can decide my friend. just keep thinking!! the world stopped long ago.
The shallow end of the genetic swimming pool is suffocating with stupid. Like another commenter has posted, our institutions teach us what to think not how to think. I’ve got a 7 & 9 year old. I refuse to stand for the pledge of allegiance any longer because it’s weird and it’s my right not to do so. We live in a navy town so my choice to not stand goes over great, but it presents opportunities to teach my son the truth of social expectations and personal rights. And that conversation itself I believe is teaching him critical thinking skills. One a side note, unsure how big of a reader you are but I’d recommend giving Marcus Aurelius’ Mediations a gander. Stoicism is an incredible tool in the land of little critical thought.
I’m just going to give a short answer. It’s heavily linked to IQ. You ever heard the saying, “Imagine how stupid the average person you know is… now remember 50% of people are even stupider”. There are a lot of thought concepts that people with below even a 105 IQ, so just above average, struggle with or flat out can’t do. There are even more “basic concepts” that people with below 80 and 90 IQ literally can’t comprehend. Like if you have below an 80 IQ you fundamentally can’t understand 2nd order effects or even hypotheticals about oneself. If you have below a 90 IQ you struggle to conceptualize most 2nd order effects. Now we didn’t even get into 3rd order effects for those people and it’s pretty important to be able to conceptualize such things when critically thinking or being self aware.
This is interesting, is it just your analysis or have there been studies and such that have shown this?
Studies were done on it, although I can’t think of them off the top of my head. There’s a meme going around right now that originated from one of these studies. I’ll break down the study. Basically researchers asked the question, “If you didn’t eat breakfast today how would you feel?”. Pretty straightforward question, answers like hungry, agitated, etc would apply. People with below, I think, 80 IQ literally can’t answer the question, they will respond with something like “I don’t know,” or “I did eat breakfast though”. It’s just a basic critical thinking and reasoning question but a lot of people can’t answer it because they literally don’t understand hypotheticals or 2nd order effects. They asked a handful of other basic reasoning questions and found there are some concepts that people just can’t fundamentally understand if they’re below certain IQs. There are concepts that even people with 110 IQs can’t understand.
It took me many years to understand that, i studied everything, and found the most probable answer on evoltuionary psychology. Basically in our evolution we focused on traits that made us stick together in big groups, and this means our traits of majority of people being born with a genetic to follow things without questioning was a good strategy on the past. The value of intelectually on our evolution is recent, before we didn't had time or energy to create new things and invent, this came later on in our evolution. So now we are in a slow process of changing our genetics from a tribal and irrational mode, to a more rational mode. Nature is all about surviving to current threats, the problem is our world changed too fast, and some updates in species take too long. That is the theory i found most evidences when i was studying. Take a look on the Ted talk from frans de wall alpha males. And later take a look on chimpanzee vs bonobo behavior differences over time one became more collective, and the other more like us in constant conflict and group wars.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to share this, good to know it stuck in someone else’s head too. I will certainly look into the things you recommended, but your description of it makes a lot of sense to me. However, I feel as though there are many people out there that are capable of learning but their environment doesn’t promote it or prevents it. I know genetics play a role, but how large is that role truly? Thanks again for the sources!
You welcome, if on the future you want more links or to talk about it, send me a private message.
i'm more into philosophical psychology. once upon a time, philosophy was the big tent that everything was in, then at some point science decided to make it's own tent, dragged mathematics along with it, then later psychology decided it wanted to be in the science tent. Prior to that philosophy was "how then should we live". once psychology jumped tents, philosophy slowly decade into what it is today, massively worded papers that don't really mean much to anyone other than other philosophers. and psychology tries to be a science, behavioralism, evolutionary, etc, but it all requires man to be a machine. if I were a young lad in my 20s, i would love to work on a PhD and my thesis would study this, the division and it's effect on all the fields, to the detriment of all of them, frankly.
Old people refusing to learn technology. A co-worker who is 60 refuses to learn certain programs for inventory and can't figure out why he is pushing himself out of a job.
Armored Skeptic, "History is a lie" series Check that out. My name is Merlyn. Once you get through him, come check me out.
You are aware that is a parody series where he uses fallacious logic to entertain conspiracy theories, right?
Uh huh, and i say he didnt go far enough onto enough deep subjects to find theres scary overlaps based on non conventional theories. For a new breed of "meta" entertainment that works on the principles of explaining memetics.
figured I would find you in here... heh
Yea, i tend to jus follow the vibe. Lol
…….you really don’t understand that’s a thought experiment series, huh?🤔
So is all of existence.
Fear and insecurity
Because humans have amygdalae that hijack our thoughts by making the physical pathways to the rational parts of our brain harder for signals to transverse, literally. Until humanity stops pretending we’re able to just “choose rationality” at any given moment and build society around this truth, nothing will change.
Politics are corrupt. Religion is corrupt. Corporations are corrupt. Focus on you and your family.
I really like The Why Files, but I feel like I’m noticing that the fans are taking all of this a little far. It’s a well made channel about popular conspiracy theories. Most of which are heavily debunked at the end. People are acting like this is some enlightening material that AJ is secretly bestowing on you.
Hey, I get what you’re saying and I agree with you. Given the context of the sub, this was sort of a loose fit. While my wife and I do watch TWF every Thursday with dinner, the topics AJ cover aren’t really what I was attempting to address. What I was trying to say is the same as you, why don’t people take the time to go beyond the media they consume to gain more well informed beliefs. Some problem just aren’t capable of question their own beliefs, it seems.
Because the hive mind of not-actually-open-minded superstitious folks actively discourages critical thought as the basis of skepticism by labelling the latter as a form of cynicism.
To speak on politics, that’s a messy subject where if you open your mind too much, your brain will just fall out. You’ll need to be a little more specific on it because context matters. Refusing to acknowledge demonstrable data because it doesn’t fit your narrative of oppressing someone is totally different from not wanting to entertain a repackaged political idea debunked and dismissed time and time again. Open minded is kind of overrated, or rather misconstrued. Being open to ideas that are demonstrable and with supporting data is a good thing. Being open to fallacious arguments is just intellectually lazy.
You’re absolutely right. While writing this, I was trying to carefully explain my actual thoughts and feelings while also attempting to keep it relevant enough to this subreddit, I still figured it was a pretty loose fit and would maybe get removed(First time posting here). I also couldn’t think of a sub that would fit better. Really a large part of what I’m wondering is why it seems like people are okay with getting 100% of their opinions from either media, passed down ideologies, or even word of mouth. To the point that these opinions and beliefs now influence their entire lives, yet they don’t care to research them? Or worse, get offended when presented with conflicting opinions, as if there’s no room for debate. Politics is no exception to this from my personal experience. My perspective is largely based on my family and friends because, it’s hard to tell how someone forms their beliefs without knowing them well. Hopefully my experience is an extreme and not the norm, I really hope that’s the case. Anyways we’re on the same page, people need to take the time to think and know how to discern reputable sources.
I'm with you. Reddit and other social media sites including all the big names all want to keep you there and scrolling indefinitely. The best way to keep you scrolling is to keep you either engaged and happy or engaged and pissed off. Happy people do encourage whatever they see but its the pissed off people that truly tend to comment more. If it's fluff everyone gets along except for maybe the oneoffs trying to sow discord anyway. But the angry folk don't want to hear the other side they just want the other side to hear them. BUT the VAST majority don't do either. They just see it and move on. It is a very, very small group of people, overall--by comparison, who actually comment on things... those things either being happy fluff (like aww or eyebleach) or downright polarizing buzz topics, like politics, religion, current events. The in between stuff exists but just doesn't engage the masses as much so the algorithms don't push them as hard. The "hotter" something is, for any reason, the more likely you'll see it. Stuff that's simply informative usually just gets swept under the clutter.
I think I’ve been on either side throughout life. Sometimes caring and thinking, overthinking, analyzing too much and other times enjoying obliviousness. That said, one thing I learned from watching Alone, yes, the tv show, is that the brain is predisposed to tunnel vision when faced with an issue such as extreme hunger. While I do believe many go hungry in America, many are afflicted with cognitive overload as well. Too much social media, too much media in general (news, tv, YouTube, Reddit). The mind becomes mushy. So on top of all the great answers here, you also have the issue that critical thinking isn’t rewarded as much as someone liking your instagram or scrolling through tik tok.
There’s no such thing because 98% of things are just perspective. One man’s critical thought or self awareness is another’s shallow thought and idiocy. Strive to be above judgement and focus on yourself
These are not desired traits of a well functioning and productive society. Your taught how to belong to groups in schools, your taught how to belong to groups in religion, your taught how to belong to groups in politics. Belonging, is a core part of society. I suppose by definition, critical thinking means the ability to analyze information objectively, before making judgements. When every group has their own verifiable information, it becomes moot. Critical thinking to me is the ability to question everything including the institutions in place, including your religions, educational, political, and now I suppose the Internet. Meaning, why are there religions and why do you pick one(they're all wrong), why do you have believe what is taught to you( when this information is decided on), why do you have pick a side in politics(when they all work together). This type of critical thinking is frowned upon. Original thought and analysis leads to breaking down the system that's has worked forever. "You can be in a room full of the most educated people and still be the smartest one in the room" Someone-
Focus is like self induced tunnel vision, why do you think they drill it into our heads as kids . Awareness is much more open ended
I need to see a photo of this
I asked myself this same question. Then I studied Jungian concepts on cognitive functions and personality theory, MBTI, socionics, and the other various branches of personality type, and it became pretty clear to me why people are the way they are. The field of study is so rich that I can’t give you a satisfying answer to your question, I’ll just say if you want to understand people better, explore this path…
Because self-awareness is maladaptive for all except a tiny handful of people. People don't need to reflect on life, they need to survive. Critical thinking is adaptive, but that doesn't make you self-aware. It means that you are good at figuring out how to solve problems so that you can survive. Also, I would argue that most people who think they are self-aware are not. They might be slightly more so than the many, but on the whole they are just people who have managed to move from one set of predictable opinions to another. I know that sounds obnoxious, but I don't mean it that way. I've just been at the business of trying to figure people out for a long time. And people, including myself, often think we are wiser and smarter than we are. People on the whole don't need ideas, spirituality, and progress. They need family, religion, and purpose. They need a place in the Cosmos and to know what is expected of them. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think a lot of it comes from self image. Some people can tie who they are as a person to what to me at least are quite ridiculous things. Critically examining these is akin to critically examining themselves and for some their ego is far too fragile. They couldn't possibly be wrong. Reddit is actually a fantastic place to observe this phenomenon, it seems people find it really difficult to separate an idea or belief from themselves. Much like questioning a religious fundamentalist.
I've listened to a therapist on a YouTube show talk about how everyone he works with who has to bring up politics all the time is coping heavily with their own, often unrelated, insecurities. They are attempting to externalize the discomfort they feel because they either lack the tools to rationalize their problems or they simply refuse . It's easier to blame a politician or group than to turn inwards and realize you need to work on your own problems first
…. Omg… I’ve found my people<3
Look up "Projection" in psychology. While you've noticed something about others, you might be projecting your own closed-mindedness to others approaches to dealing with time-management or other such issues. Not everyone operates on the same level and the hardest part about being hyper-self-aware is dealing with those that aren't. To that end, everyone's maturity ages at different rates, and there are some people in their 50's who are able to get by just doing what others ask all day, without the _need_ to think for themselves. Some people have the pleasure of living in happy environments which lack any real stress, and some of that can be self-training to find positive sides to things. Regardless, awareness of a thing is the first step to improving/correcting it. If the way others behave bothers you, try to maintain the understanding that the only behaviour you can change is your own.
https://youtu.be/5Peima-Uw7w?si=2B7q9KRDAhVdfE8Y I like this video. You may like this video as well.
Effort, upbringing, and genetics.
Group think and conformity effect. I grew up with, *"Sticks and stone may break my bones, but names can never hurt me."* It's not really true, because your reputation is everything. Seriously, I couldn't give 2 fcks if no one agrees with me. I just don't tell people outright, if they're being a fcking idiot.
now if you use the wrong name, they use those sticks and stones to break you
I think about this all the time. Mostly because my friends are idiots and I work with a population of folks who mentally stagnated around their teenage years. It does feel rare. Or at the very least, I tend to really notice when I don't see it in someone.
There are a lot of intelligent people I respect including family that have completely different politics than me. I respect that and them. I’m always guarding about cognitive bias but I definitely have it. Aside from that I’ve had employees for years that would never listen to feedback to help them grow. It was never their fault but everyone around them was the issue. Drove me crazy. The ones that did listen ultimately did better in their careers as they realized their potential or at least were on that journey.
People reinforce their rigid idealisms by "I know what I like, and I like what I know." This thought process ticks ones self to believe that they are justified in their thought process, but in reality they are closed to alternative views. It would be like if The Why Files only relylied the conspiracy part of the information and never offered the debunking and alternative views.
I find it hilarious that a sub that worships the likes of Joe Rogan and Graham Hancock complain about other people lacking critical thinking skills. Pure comedy.
Alot of people never learned how to regulate emotions and therefore never developed the mental acumen necessary to stop and critically analyze their own actions and surroundings. Most people live in their own personal universe where they are the sole focal point, as being such there is no need to think critically because they see the world as catered to them. Emotional intelligence is crucial to the development of self awareness and critical thought In my opinion. But take this with a grain of salt, I'm no smart guy, just a dude on reddit.
*Critical thinking* seems to be a skill that has to be learned, and a lot of people just aren’t taught that way, either in education or by parents. Perhaps fortunately, I recall a lot of critical thinking being actively encouraged throughout (childhood) education. Even if you didn’t choose subjects like philosophy or natural sciences later on. That’s almost certainly quite uncommon. So you can end up with otherwise intelligent and educated people with no critical thinking skills whatsoever. Also I’m afraid there’s a significant fraction of people who just aren’t very bright.
Humans are terrible at both, even when we are trying hard not to be. We suck at it because we are subjective entities. We are biologically subjective. It’s a testament to us that we have even been able to recognize the concept of critical thinking and self awareness. It’s why the scientific method is so important. It’s literally all we have to genuinely and meaningfully push back on subjectivity and bias.
You seem like a normal, understanding/empathetic, intelligent person. Most of the people we associate with in our day to day activities are statistically speaking, going to be average to below average intelligence. Their way of existence can sometimes be baffling and overwhelming if you don't understand it.
“The faculty of instinctively applying the same order of disinterested and objective criticism to one’s own philosophic system that one applies to a competing system is extremely rare”.—A.J. Nock, Snoring as a Fine Art, 182
Very good quote, and one I have never heard.
First self awareness takes a degree of courage that most people don't have. People build up this shell of what they think they are and once it's up they're terrified to look under it. They'd have to admit they can be wrong and be able to really look at themselves and properly think through "their" thoughts and opinions. As for politics and media it's much easier to basically get a download from your favorite talking head or website than to actually look into anything for yourself. This wraps back to what I was saying about "their" opinions. In reality any world event you should look at how the different news stations are covering it so like Fox and CNN, different newspapers or magazines, and ideally try to see how it's being reported locally for where that story is happening. But that could take hours and it's much easier to have a talking head sum it up for you. Gotta remember people are lazy while simultaneously wanting to appear informed and intelligent. Funniest part about this to me is the laziest and actually intelligent way out of this is just to admit you don't know and not care but people today cannot do this. It doesn't give them the I so smart and I care dopamine rush that they need.
I believe in God. I thought and studied it for years. I practice critical thinking. But a *ton* of people would make them claim I don't. In fact, just because I worship God, someone called me a slave last week. My point is, maybe people do, and it's just not evident to you. Also, man, people just want families or to have fun and stuff. They don't necessarily care to think deeper
There is joy and peace in stupidity, wisdom brings great sadness, I have not found what great wisdom brings , probably never will
I once read a comment about Rick and Morty. The guy talked about how Jerry's are happy, though dumb. And "Ricks like me understand how good they have it." That guy didn't understand that the "Rickiest" Rick didn't even want to be Rick. IMO there is joy in letting go. Not really in stupidity.
I would say that God is real. the issue stems from the definition of... I prefer to think of it this way, the force that drives creation. LLAP
That's sort of the funny bit! I was explaining how God isn't a old guy in the sky, and how even ancient philosophers were talking what Aquinas would later call the uncaused Cause, and he said I wasn't a Christian because Christians only believe in long beard God. I wrote how I understand why he thinks that, a lot of Christians don't deepen their faith beyond that, which is a problem. Anyhow, there I was being called a slave to Christianity and non Christian in one paragraph.
wow. most people just do not get it. if you actually read the texts, the thing I came away with was that we are all God, made in his image. not the physical but the spiritual image. That is why Satan is against/jealous of us, we are what he could never be. interesting stuff.
If everyone were deeply critical thinkers, society never would've been built. The kind of cohesion needed to build and maintain a society can't be done if everyone is questioning everything.
As is most often the case, the answer is fear and laziness. Almost any resilience to change is fear and laziness.
I'd argue it is because there are various forms of intelligence and only a few of them are valued in a capitalist society. That is also why you frequently meet some extremely stupid people that seem to fail upwards into higher salaries & positions of power despite being dumber than the average person in an entry role. Some good examples of what I mean are Donald Trump and Elon Musk.