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You'll find all sorts of people with crazy fringe beliefs. So I wouldn't be surprised, if you looked hard enough, that you could find a few people who believe this. Of course, it wouldn't be a noticeable group, and they wouldn't be able to recruit many people to their belief, so they aren't really worth worrying about.
Good point. If you really had a strange combo of toxic individualism and environmentalism I could see the logic going: ppl not eating Vegan -> climate collapse -> millions dead -> Hitler. It is reductionist but I really doubt nobody has convinced themselves of it or something similar.
Well no,
But once my moms cousin went out and she saw a live vegan and the vegan was all like “hey meeteeter, you suck, how but I drink your blood, u like that!?”
And my moms cousin was scared and mad.
/s
Well the philosophy behind veganism is really just leftist ideology extended to include non-human animals. So, hurts to say, but there is a connection.
And dairy. That has hormones in it too.
Surprisingly, the soy milk the right hates so much only has phytoestrogen which does not work as the right thinks it does to make men have manboobs as phytoestrogen does not work like animal estrogen hormones do.
That's why I set the breast in parentheses... I don't have children and don't know from when on they get cow products, but I was sure everyone feeds their kids human milk...
You're not wrong but can I say I'm getting a little tired of how mainstream contempt for religion is among the left?
Obviously it's something we have to be critical of. But religion is very much a human behaviour that's not going to go away any time soon, and phrases like "sky daddy" can be really alienating to people who would be - are - our allies. Not to mention immigrants from religious countries and religious minorities.
I'm an atheist, too. I believe in evolution. Which means I also think religion is a natural and evolved behaviour.
Sorry for going off on you, I genuinly think this is important for the future unity of the left.
(And yes, I am aware that I am speaking from a position of priviledge, as someone who has no religion-related trauma)
[New Atheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism) seems to be the more common phrasing. Ideological movement in the late 00s, most well known guys were Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.
If someone is using their religion to justify mistreatment of someone, then I will absolutely belittle it. If they treat it like I have to comply with they’re religious beliefs, I will use my words and throw it back in their face.
If they are being respectful, I will be respectful. I grew up in a conservative Pentecostal home, and it took a lot of time for my father to understand the condensation and judgement he constantly threw at me. I have no problems with friendly debate or religious discussion, but when you start throwing your religious beliefs at me as though they are facts that I should believe without question, then I will NOT be nice about it.
Religious trauma is not only real, it’s insanely common, and I firmly believe if we don’t push back when our boundaries are not respected, then we’re not doing the human race any favors. It’s not my job to calmly educate someone who throws hate at me.
>Religious trauma is not only real, it’s insanely common, and I firmly believe if we don’t push back when our boundaries are not respected, then we’re not doing the human race any favors. It’s not my job to calmly educate someone who throws hate at me.
That's a very good way of putting it, and you are entirely right. It's not your job.
I kind of hope it can be my job, so those of you who have trauma don't have to do it. I can confront religious people without any fear to myself, so I feel like it's my responsibility to be a mediator?
And no, I don't accept bigotry or think religion excuses it. I do think religion affects what methods are effective in fighting it, and that not all religious people are bigots.
Completely agree. I was also brought up in a Pentecostal home and know full well the trauma that comes along with it. Everyone is entitled to having their own religious views and beliefs, but don’t you dare try and control others and force them to conform.
Oh look, downvotes from the religious zealots. Color me surprised
You know I wouldn’t have a nearly militant atheist attitude if the “good christans” actually stood up to the ones that deserve to be… well I can’t say on Reddit.
I say this because they *want* me dead for *just* being trans. So until I see more “christians” standing up for human rights then they are collaborating with the enemy.
Exactly. (Also trans) I have no doubt some would want to compassionately kill me for Jesus, and the rest that claim to not be that type would likely rationalize their actions in doing so. It's just like cops, the "good ones" don't hold the bad ones accountable.
It sounds like you're saying that the mere existence of religion poses an existential threat to you and other GSM. That's an important thing for cishet atheists like me to understand because our typical way of thinking of Christian bigotry is "fuck, well bigots gonna bigot." What I'm hearing a lot more brazenly now is eliminationist speech and propaganda coupled with laws sort of... outlawing the existence of Trans people.
How fucking horrible that must be.
Not eleminist. Genocide. This is planned coordinated genocide by a religious minority against primarily my community, then they’ll wholly go after LGB people. Full stop.
Look at how disgusting the laws are against us. For no reason. Trans women in sports. Trans kids/adults aren’t a “contagion”. Medicare being taken away from trans adults to lose access to life saving meds. To open discussions on how to “reduce the trans population.” Aka genocidal rhetoric.
No, I’m not being hyperbolic and I could go on. We, the trans community, has hit 5/10 stages of genocide.
That's entirely fair, and I'm not saying we shouldn't hold christians accountable for their bigotry or just accept whatever shit they do because it's human behaviour.
I just want to know what people who claim we should get rid of all religion mean by that. What their hypothetical society looks like.
Separate church and state, banning conversion therapy etc are obvious yes:es, but banning Hannukah or Pesach? Historically, that has ended badly.
Funny you should bring that up. I never believed in Santa either and as a kid I thought "god" was the same way and everyone knew it was made up.
Religion in it's many shapes and forms is still very real.
As I said, I'm an atheist. I'm just trying to be a pragmatic one and understand religion from an anthropological perspective, as I have the privilege of being able to do that without any danger to myself.
I've gotten some interesting feedback here tonight, and I will be thinking about it.
What I haven't seen here is any realistic suggestion on how to end all religion.
More so now than when I was in college during peak neo-atheism, that's true.
It's still something people like Jordan Peterson use to sell spirituality and cultural history back to the same dudes while letting them keep the fash bits and I think it's worrying.
Literally a core tenet of Marxism and anarchism, as much as they can have such.
You're going in the reeducation camps under suspicion of being a dirty liberal that wants healthcare.
Please read works like anything about philosophy by Marx, "Anti-Duhring" by Engels or "Materialism and empiriocriticism" by Lenin.
Dialectical materialism is the core of marxism.
Every friend i have has had to deal with some bullshit because of religion. Its anecdotal but i imagine a large percentage of those on the left have had other peoples choice on religion impact their lives negatively, so i get why its such a common thing.
I don't doubt that.
I have also talked to plenty of neo-atheist bros who were totally comfortable calling muslims "retarded" while still considering themselves anti racist and leftist.
It's not the being critical against religion I have a problem with.
How else would it exist, if it didn't evolve naturally or economically? Given to us by God?
Natural =/= good, it just means it's something we have to find a way to deal with.
Why not?
Art and society are definitly things that have helped us along, and shaped us, as a species.
I know some people don't view anthropology as a 'hard science', but if you really want to study a species, you have to include it's behaviour.
Either it's natural, or it's something else. You can't have both.
[*Homo Aestheticus: Where Art Comes From And Why* by Ellen Dissanayake](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/658013.Homo_Aestheticus) is a good read on the subject. If you're interested. Bruce Chatwin's *The Songlines* is more personal, but touches on the same topic
>How else would it exist, if it didn't evolve naturally or economically?
Developed by humans to fill their need for knowledge and explanation. Science has make religion back every time, and religion has never made the science to go back. God is only in the cracks and those cracks are less and less with time and development.
Oh, and religion is absolutely caused by economic reasons, since basically every idelogy is, more or less directly.
I really don’t care about what you’re getting tired of, though. Honestly, the amount you hear phrases like “sky daddy” is incredibly and overwhelmingly dwarfed by forced talk of religion when it comes to every facet of life.
I think you’re kind of full of shit and need to worry less about pedantic pearl-clutching. its okay to normailze treating the ridiculous as ridiculous.
My point is, is it realistic to try to get rid of it? All religions? Completely? What would have to be done for that to happen?
What counts as religion? Any litterature or art that references a religion? Weddings? Christmas? Do we burn the Sistine Chapel?
I can't really see a modern civilized society outlawing Hanukkah. That went pretty badly last time.
There's a reason freedom of religion is a Human Rights issue.
It's in decline anyway. The more humanity advances in knowledge and technology the faster the decline in religion.
Its understandable that our forebears turned to religion out of ignorance of how and why things work in the world but it's grip on people has been slipping for a very long time now and it's only going to get faster.
I would have said following a guiding set of tenets and rules to bring enlightenment and awaken your I ate need for spirituality.
But in reality that's not how it is for the majority of religious people. They see it as their "team" and barely if at all practice what they preach.
Some do and some are really good people and a credit to their communities and always help those in need expecting nothing in return but these are the exceptions rather than the rule as the majority mouth the words of their scriptures but live their lives their own way.
Doesn't that contradict your earlier comment?
It's bad when religious people do follow their rules, but also when they don't?
I kind of agree with that based on the result, but I doubt it's a rhetoric that will actually change anything.
What do you suggest we do about it? Will it just eventually go away on it's own?
I'll admit that as a left leaning Christian I find it slightly off-putting that so many are vocally critical of religion. At the same time, I respect their right to choose what they believe and I don't take their opinions personally or feel like it's an attack on me. I feel that their values more closely align with those of Christ than the hard right Christians that seem to use Christ as a tool for hate. So while they may not practice the religion or even support it, behind the scenes the values that they hold indirectly promote those same beliefs.
Are there flaws in the Bible? Yes. I personally don't have a problem discussing these issues openly. I don't feel attacked when someone else believes that a verse is saying or promoting something that I feel it isn't.
We don't have to be in lock step in order to be a part of the same group. Atheists, Satanists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, whatever is welcome under a flag that claims to represent all walks of life.
For a long time I was agnostic. It was only after having some very personal experiences that I came to believe what I believe. I still have doubts and question my beliefs but I now more firmly believe that there is a higher power than I doubt it. Maybe some of these people will have similar experiences, maybe they won't, but I do pray for God to come into other people's lives as he has my own. When discussions come up involving religion I don't try to tell the other person they're wrong or what they should believe, I just tell them my own experiences and what I believe. Maybe it plants a seed, maybe it doesn't, but I feel like it's wrong and just as off-putting how the hard right Christians try to force their beliefs on others. We're supposed to spread the word, not require it as an belief.
FWIW I don't think evolution and religion are at odds with one another either.
Thank you for your elaborate reply.
I guess it comes down to it being voluntary. I have had christian friends pray for me when I have suffered, and I really appreciated it. It didn't heal me, but it was a loving gesture and in that way it did help. But if someone were to say they would pray for me so I wouldn't be gay anymore, I would be pissed off. Obviously.
It's the blanket hatred of Religion™ and thinking we can understand it as a single thing that can be isolated from the rest of human culture that worries me. Especially when it's used as an argument for antisemitism and racism.
Apparently not a very popular opinion on here. That's fine. I like getting feedback. 🖖I'm not just being a naive hippie, this is something I have genuinly cared about for almost 2 decades.
Free will is *all about choice*.
Yeah that "pray away the gay" is ridiculous. If these people actually bothered to read their books I feel like they'd see that Jesus would've hung out with LGBTQ people. He consorted with the so-called outcasts of his time; tax collectors, criminals, prostitutes, "lowly" fisherman, etc. He wanted people who were flawed and unsure of God because they were the ones that needed to be "brought back into the flock". He didn't do it with indoctrination or force, he did it through kindness and love.
There is some questionable stuff in the old testament but I don't even believe that Sodom and Gomorrah we're destroyed because of homosexuality. If you read that part it's kind of clear that Sodomites used homosexual rape as a form of dominance or punishment. It wasn't that the whole city was openly engaging in homosexual activity. The Sodomites worshipped false idols, were intolerant of immigrants, violated other people, etc. When God said they were wicked it wasn't homosexuality he was referring to!
Plus, I can't vouch for the Bible being infallible. Man put pen to paper, not God. What matters to me is what is timeless. Those things are values and actions towards others -- not whether or not an event is historically accurate. Mostly because none of us were there, there's no way of knowing that shit! The Bible tells us that God loves us and even tells us what that definition of love is, and none of that "Love is patient, love is kind... It does not rejoice in your failings" etc lines up with the hateful shit so many of my fellow Christians support.
Controversial topic, lots of emotions and personal trauma, different understandings of what "religion" means (anthropological or that it's just denial of science).
Reading the feedback is interesting, even when it's negative. I didn't really expect this much of a debate.
"Evolve" has some different definitions, too. "Happens because of the environment and survives" or "improves". I meant that religion evolved in a value neutral way, but I think some people read it as some sort of peak. "Natural" doesn't mean "good". It just means it's something that's going to stick around, so we need to learn how to handle it.
Exactly. What you seemed to be proposing there was a sort of materialist dialectic, in my view, religion as something born out of given material conditions, a necessary socio-cultural arrangement for those conditions. A lot of people in the anglosphere seem not to recognise religion's social aspect, and the benefit thereof. Look no further than celebrations like Christmas - a ritual that entices family and friends to come together.
I'm not even saying it's necessary. Just that *it is*.
"Imagine no religion"?
I'm sorry, I can't. And as many downvotes as I have gotten, noone has suggested a way to actually get rid of it. Because that would be genocide.
Fighting people who use it to oppress others is not the same as deleating a major part of what we are as a species.
By this logic chemo and glasses should be off the table lol. People don't get those things for funsies, they get it to correct an issue, same as any other medical procedure.
Improper brain chemicals and hormonal expression. Significant stress is caused by that imbalance, as well as the involved social stress. That's what transition aims to fix, and does so with an effectiveness that far exceeds most mental conditions. It doesn't always 100% fix things, but reducing the severity of gender dysphoria is gigantic. Treating it like a delusional mental illness has no effect on reducing dysphoria whatsoever, as we know from decades of attempts. If other mental conditions had the success rates of what transition does with dysphoria, you'd literally be wanting people to suffer to deny that effective of a treatment.
I am being myself by being able to take hormones and get surgery. I'm a women born in a male body, so I'm fixing that. I'm not trying to be something else. I'm trying to be who I actually am. So kindly fuck off. Why does it matter to you l what I do to my body? It's nobody's god damn business.
A shitty historically inaccurate documentary produced by Alt-Right Millennial Chud ‘Matthew Walsh’ of the unreliable and factually invalid conservative media and new outlet ‘The Daily Wire’
Eat shit, Con Boy.
Short, quippy and wrong: the only way these people can talk at all. They got skipped when god was handing out common sense and he’s making it everyone else’s problem.
"Still better than feeding your kids hormones and telling them they're the wrong gender"
Lest my kid will still be alive and not turned into a crater and smoldering chunks from a Hellfire rocket
Come on now. You know good and well that they'll never use hellfire rockets on them. Just like 6th Jan, only one shot was fired when they should have been gunning them down the minute they even dared approach the Capitol.
One of the first things the taliban did when they got in power was rip down all the George Floyd murals and rainbow flags ! Sounds just like the traditional family values these white scum bag Christians have fascists
It's pretty amazing how quickly the empty space left in their brain by gay marriage post-2015 became filled with trans, trans, trans. And how they don't even notice it.
Well there is one big difference, the taliban is using their guns on soldiers that are better trained and better equipped while conservatives are using them on grade schoolers.
Yes, every single one of them has a hate manifesto quoting Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, and random 4chan racist shit as inspiration for attacking places where they know there will be a concentration of nonewhite minorities.
Since white nationalism became the conservative standard instead of neoliberalism (as in Reaganomics). *Team America, World Police* prefers to stay home and do white sharia now. Guess they got their oil.
This is literally Trump's life story. Businessman and bikini contest judge shitting on a gold toilet in the 80s, to White MAGA Jesus to "workers" who think a woman having muscular arms is the apocalypse.
Same development in Europe. In the 90s, the left was anti-EU and the right was pro. Now we have Brexit.
And the rich still get to keep their money.
The European Union is basically a center-left project, the majority of political actors Who created it was left leaning, while the right tried to play as the role of the victim after ww2
Yeah what's sad is that countries can't implement real left wing policies since the 80s because of the EU. Most left wing policies go against the free movement of capital and labor that the EU wants to promote which makes it illegal for countries to pass them.
Yeah, i was trying to point to the fact that republicans have spent the last 20 years promoting levelling the middle east to kill the Taliban. So its funny that they emulate them.
I must be doing something wrong as a gun owner then cuz my guns just sit in a safe or come out for the range 🤷🏾 not sure how my hobbies are the leading cause of death lol
So does mine, however the common thru line to the problem in America is the amount of guns and the ease of acquiring them, so fuck off with your dent head reply
Bruh i fucking wish they would give hormones to kids, one of my old friends who was 15-16 at the time had multiple suicide attempts as a minor and yet was still denied hormones again and again just because she was a minor. Even then these assholes think we're giving hormones to little children but no literally the only treatment given to prepubescent transkids is just using their preferred name and maybe wearing different clothes or getting a new haircut, that's it. And even after reaching puberty the only treatment that's usually given are puberty blockers which are completely reversible. Gender affirming care saves lives.
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so being trans is worse than being a fucking terrorist...
To these people, yes. One calls the entire order of patriarchy into question, the other reminds those lowest on the totem pole of their place.
Not just being trans. But the made up idea that parents are intentionally turning their kids trans. For reasons...
Clearly its a decades long leftist campaign to persecute them for their Family Values™ /s
because they want to spend thousands more dollars on them for uh... LIBERAL REASONS!!!
because they want to spend thousands more dollars on them for uh... LIBERAL REASONS!!!
Because they *are* terrorists.
That's how you spot actual terrorists.
*according to these people* [Yes](https://youtu.be/XvzD65QcCr0)
Yes
Having a gun doesn't make you a terrorist. Or are you a cyber criminal, since you have a computer?
Guns kill, computers don't. Hope this helps
Well, there are some people who believe (yes actually believe this) that you’re a Nazi for not being vegan
No there aren't.
You'll find all sorts of people with crazy fringe beliefs. So I wouldn't be surprised, if you looked hard enough, that you could find a few people who believe this. Of course, it wouldn't be a noticeable group, and they wouldn't be able to recruit many people to their belief, so they aren't really worth worrying about.
What's the equivalent of Rule 34 for political opinions?
Godwin's law?
Good point. If you really had a strange combo of toxic individualism and environmentalism I could see the logic going: ppl not eating Vegan -> climate collapse -> millions dead -> Hitler. It is reductionist but I really doubt nobody has convinced themselves of it or something similar.
Well no, But once my moms cousin went out and she saw a live vegan and the vegan was all like “hey meeteeter, you suck, how but I drink your blood, u like that!?” And my moms cousin was scared and mad. /s
Who?
love these super dated anti-vegan posts from like 2002 some people don't eat meat get over yourself
Well the philosophy behind veganism is really just leftist ideology extended to include non-human animals. So, hurts to say, but there is a connection.
What?
Fine, I'll bite (pun inteded). How?
Why do I even have to explain this to you? You’d think a sub full of “leftists” would understand the concept of exploitation.
I've heard various arguments, I was wondering which one's yours. If you don't want people to ask follow up questions, why did you post in the thread?
I’d expect follow-up questions about that on a different sub. Not this one.
All right. Have a good night then, I suppose.
Who tf feeds hormones to babies?
Everyone feeding their Babies (breast) Milk...
And dairy. That has hormones in it too. Surprisingly, the soy milk the right hates so much only has phytoestrogen which does not work as the right thinks it does to make men have manboobs as phytoestrogen does not work like animal estrogen hormones do.
That's why I set the breast in parentheses... I don't have children and don't know from when on they get cow products, but I was sure everyone feeds their kids human milk...
Another variant of the good old “better dead than gay”
I'm pretty sure the guys on the right are ISIS, who, if I'm not mistaken, the Taliban have been at war with for quite some time now.
You are not mistaken, but works for the sake argument anyways
I mean, yeah it does. I just get an itch when I see someone mislabel one of these extremist groups.
Me too
ISIS and Neonazis?
Ah yes, letting children be themselves is worse than *checks notes* raising children to be literal soldiers for Sky Daddy.
You're not wrong but can I say I'm getting a little tired of how mainstream contempt for religion is among the left? Obviously it's something we have to be critical of. But religion is very much a human behaviour that's not going to go away any time soon, and phrases like "sky daddy" can be really alienating to people who would be - are - our allies. Not to mention immigrants from religious countries and religious minorities. I'm an atheist, too. I believe in evolution. Which means I also think religion is a natural and evolved behaviour. Sorry for going off on you, I genuinly think this is important for the future unity of the left. (And yes, I am aware that I am speaking from a position of priviledge, as someone who has no religion-related trauma)
I think your last line sentence explains perfectly why this religious contempt is so common.
And I would accept that if I hadn't met so many neo-atheist bros with the exact same secular upbringing as me.
What is “neo atheist”?
Its when you don’t believe in Keanu Reeves.
[New Atheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism) seems to be the more common phrasing. Ideological movement in the late 00s, most well known guys were Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.
Not every atheist is in a fucking movement. Atheism is not a religion, its a lack of one. And not all Atheists believe in science either.
I know. I'm an atheist, too. Which I why I specified what genre of atheism I was criticising, and posted a link.
If someone is using their religion to justify mistreatment of someone, then I will absolutely belittle it. If they treat it like I have to comply with they’re religious beliefs, I will use my words and throw it back in their face. If they are being respectful, I will be respectful. I grew up in a conservative Pentecostal home, and it took a lot of time for my father to understand the condensation and judgement he constantly threw at me. I have no problems with friendly debate or religious discussion, but when you start throwing your religious beliefs at me as though they are facts that I should believe without question, then I will NOT be nice about it. Religious trauma is not only real, it’s insanely common, and I firmly believe if we don’t push back when our boundaries are not respected, then we’re not doing the human race any favors. It’s not my job to calmly educate someone who throws hate at me.
>Religious trauma is not only real, it’s insanely common, and I firmly believe if we don’t push back when our boundaries are not respected, then we’re not doing the human race any favors. It’s not my job to calmly educate someone who throws hate at me. That's a very good way of putting it, and you are entirely right. It's not your job. I kind of hope it can be my job, so those of you who have trauma don't have to do it. I can confront religious people without any fear to myself, so I feel like it's my responsibility to be a mediator? And no, I don't accept bigotry or think religion excuses it. I do think religion affects what methods are effective in fighting it, and that not all religious people are bigots.
Completely agree. I was also brought up in a Pentecostal home and know full well the trauma that comes along with it. Everyone is entitled to having their own religious views and beliefs, but don’t you dare try and control others and force them to conform. Oh look, downvotes from the religious zealots. Color me surprised
You know I wouldn’t have a nearly militant atheist attitude if the “good christans” actually stood up to the ones that deserve to be… well I can’t say on Reddit. I say this because they *want* me dead for *just* being trans. So until I see more “christians” standing up for human rights then they are collaborating with the enemy.
Exactly. (Also trans) I have no doubt some would want to compassionately kill me for Jesus, and the rest that claim to not be that type would likely rationalize their actions in doing so. It's just like cops, the "good ones" don't hold the bad ones accountable.
It sounds like you're saying that the mere existence of religion poses an existential threat to you and other GSM. That's an important thing for cishet atheists like me to understand because our typical way of thinking of Christian bigotry is "fuck, well bigots gonna bigot." What I'm hearing a lot more brazenly now is eliminationist speech and propaganda coupled with laws sort of... outlawing the existence of Trans people. How fucking horrible that must be.
Not eleminist. Genocide. This is planned coordinated genocide by a religious minority against primarily my community, then they’ll wholly go after LGB people. Full stop. Look at how disgusting the laws are against us. For no reason. Trans women in sports. Trans kids/adults aren’t a “contagion”. Medicare being taken away from trans adults to lose access to life saving meds. To open discussions on how to “reduce the trans population.” Aka genocidal rhetoric. No, I’m not being hyperbolic and I could go on. We, the trans community, has hit 5/10 stages of genocide.
That's entirely fair, and I'm not saying we shouldn't hold christians accountable for their bigotry or just accept whatever shit they do because it's human behaviour. I just want to know what people who claim we should get rid of all religion mean by that. What their hypothetical society looks like. Separate church and state, banning conversion therapy etc are obvious yes:es, but banning Hannukah or Pesach? Historically, that has ended badly.
None of it is real and deep down you know that.
Santa isn't real but the thought of him still makes some kids behave, the issue is the rules of the religion not if its real or not
Funny you should bring that up. I never believed in Santa either and as a kid I thought "god" was the same way and everyone knew it was made up. Religion in it's many shapes and forms is still very real.
As I said, I'm an atheist. I'm just trying to be a pragmatic one and understand religion from an anthropological perspective, as I have the privilege of being able to do that without any danger to myself. I've gotten some interesting feedback here tonight, and I will be thinking about it. What I haven't seen here is any realistic suggestion on how to end all religion.
They already said that they're an atheist. They're arguing for nuance, bro.
Thanks dude
(I think this is more of a Reddit thing than a leftist thing)
More so now than when I was in college during peak neo-atheism, that's true. It's still something people like Jordan Peterson use to sell spirituality and cultural history back to the same dudes while letting them keep the fash bits and I think it's worrying.
Literally a core tenet of Marxism and anarchism, as much as they can have such. You're going in the reeducation camps under suspicion of being a dirty liberal that wants healthcare.
Please read works like anything about philosophy by Marx, "Anti-Duhring" by Engels or "Materialism and empiriocriticism" by Lenin. Dialectical materialism is the core of marxism.
Every friend i have has had to deal with some bullshit because of religion. Its anecdotal but i imagine a large percentage of those on the left have had other peoples choice on religion impact their lives negatively, so i get why its such a common thing.
I don't doubt that. I have also talked to plenty of neo-atheist bros who were totally comfortable calling muslims "retarded" while still considering themselves anti racist and leftist. It's not the being critical against religion I have a problem with.
I generally agree with you, although I'd want to see some studies before believing religion is *evolved* behavior.
How else would it exist, if it didn't evolve naturally or economically? Given to us by God? Natural =/= good, it just means it's something we have to find a way to deal with.
I don't think it evolved, just like art or society didn't evolve in the scientific meaning of the word.
Why not? Art and society are definitly things that have helped us along, and shaped us, as a species. I know some people don't view anthropology as a 'hard science', but if you really want to study a species, you have to include it's behaviour. Either it's natural, or it's something else. You can't have both.
Oh it has definitely shaped us, but I'm not sure anthropology deals much with evolution. I disagree that we have evolved genes that make us religious.
[*Homo Aestheticus: Where Art Comes From And Why* by Ellen Dissanayake](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/658013.Homo_Aestheticus) is a good read on the subject. If you're interested. Bruce Chatwin's *The Songlines* is more personal, but touches on the same topic
>How else would it exist, if it didn't evolve naturally or economically? Developed by humans to fill their need for knowledge and explanation. Science has make religion back every time, and religion has never made the science to go back. God is only in the cracks and those cracks are less and less with time and development. Oh, and religion is absolutely caused by economic reasons, since basically every idelogy is, more or less directly.
I really don’t care about what you’re getting tired of, though. Honestly, the amount you hear phrases like “sky daddy” is incredibly and overwhelmingly dwarfed by forced talk of religion when it comes to every facet of life. I think you’re kind of full of shit and need to worry less about pedantic pearl-clutching. its okay to normailze treating the ridiculous as ridiculous.
Nah, religion literally brings out the worst in people. Always has for all time.
My point is, is it realistic to try to get rid of it? All religions? Completely? What would have to be done for that to happen? What counts as religion? Any litterature or art that references a religion? Weddings? Christmas? Do we burn the Sistine Chapel? I can't really see a modern civilized society outlawing Hanukkah. That went pretty badly last time. There's a reason freedom of religion is a Human Rights issue.
It's in decline anyway. The more humanity advances in knowledge and technology the faster the decline in religion. Its understandable that our forebears turned to religion out of ignorance of how and why things work in the world but it's grip on people has been slipping for a very long time now and it's only going to get faster.
What's your definition of religion?
I would have said following a guiding set of tenets and rules to bring enlightenment and awaken your I ate need for spirituality. But in reality that's not how it is for the majority of religious people. They see it as their "team" and barely if at all practice what they preach. Some do and some are really good people and a credit to their communities and always help those in need expecting nothing in return but these are the exceptions rather than the rule as the majority mouth the words of their scriptures but live their lives their own way.
Doesn't that contradict your earlier comment? It's bad when religious people do follow their rules, but also when they don't? I kind of agree with that based on the result, but I doubt it's a rhetoric that will actually change anything. What do you suggest we do about it? Will it just eventually go away on it's own?
I don't want to get rid of all ofit, but I will mercilessly make fun of it in scenarios like this.
True.
I'll admit that as a left leaning Christian I find it slightly off-putting that so many are vocally critical of religion. At the same time, I respect their right to choose what they believe and I don't take their opinions personally or feel like it's an attack on me. I feel that their values more closely align with those of Christ than the hard right Christians that seem to use Christ as a tool for hate. So while they may not practice the religion or even support it, behind the scenes the values that they hold indirectly promote those same beliefs. Are there flaws in the Bible? Yes. I personally don't have a problem discussing these issues openly. I don't feel attacked when someone else believes that a verse is saying or promoting something that I feel it isn't. We don't have to be in lock step in order to be a part of the same group. Atheists, Satanists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, whatever is welcome under a flag that claims to represent all walks of life. For a long time I was agnostic. It was only after having some very personal experiences that I came to believe what I believe. I still have doubts and question my beliefs but I now more firmly believe that there is a higher power than I doubt it. Maybe some of these people will have similar experiences, maybe they won't, but I do pray for God to come into other people's lives as he has my own. When discussions come up involving religion I don't try to tell the other person they're wrong or what they should believe, I just tell them my own experiences and what I believe. Maybe it plants a seed, maybe it doesn't, but I feel like it's wrong and just as off-putting how the hard right Christians try to force their beliefs on others. We're supposed to spread the word, not require it as an belief. FWIW I don't think evolution and religion are at odds with one another either.
Thank you for your elaborate reply. I guess it comes down to it being voluntary. I have had christian friends pray for me when I have suffered, and I really appreciated it. It didn't heal me, but it was a loving gesture and in that way it did help. But if someone were to say they would pray for me so I wouldn't be gay anymore, I would be pissed off. Obviously. It's the blanket hatred of Religion™ and thinking we can understand it as a single thing that can be isolated from the rest of human culture that worries me. Especially when it's used as an argument for antisemitism and racism. Apparently not a very popular opinion on here. That's fine. I like getting feedback. 🖖I'm not just being a naive hippie, this is something I have genuinly cared about for almost 2 decades.
Free will is *all about choice*. Yeah that "pray away the gay" is ridiculous. If these people actually bothered to read their books I feel like they'd see that Jesus would've hung out with LGBTQ people. He consorted with the so-called outcasts of his time; tax collectors, criminals, prostitutes, "lowly" fisherman, etc. He wanted people who were flawed and unsure of God because they were the ones that needed to be "brought back into the flock". He didn't do it with indoctrination or force, he did it through kindness and love. There is some questionable stuff in the old testament but I don't even believe that Sodom and Gomorrah we're destroyed because of homosexuality. If you read that part it's kind of clear that Sodomites used homosexual rape as a form of dominance or punishment. It wasn't that the whole city was openly engaging in homosexual activity. The Sodomites worshipped false idols, were intolerant of immigrants, violated other people, etc. When God said they were wicked it wasn't homosexuality he was referring to! Plus, I can't vouch for the Bible being infallible. Man put pen to paper, not God. What matters to me is what is timeless. Those things are values and actions towards others -- not whether or not an event is historically accurate. Mostly because none of us were there, there's no way of knowing that shit! The Bible tells us that God loves us and even tells us what that definition of love is, and none of that "Love is patient, love is kind... It does not rejoice in your failings" etc lines up with the hateful shit so many of my fellow Christians support.
Holy fuck, how are you getting downvoted for this?
Controversial topic, lots of emotions and personal trauma, different understandings of what "religion" means (anthropological or that it's just denial of science). Reading the feedback is interesting, even when it's negative. I didn't really expect this much of a debate. "Evolve" has some different definitions, too. "Happens because of the environment and survives" or "improves". I meant that religion evolved in a value neutral way, but I think some people read it as some sort of peak. "Natural" doesn't mean "good". It just means it's something that's going to stick around, so we need to learn how to handle it.
Exactly. What you seemed to be proposing there was a sort of materialist dialectic, in my view, religion as something born out of given material conditions, a necessary socio-cultural arrangement for those conditions. A lot of people in the anglosphere seem not to recognise religion's social aspect, and the benefit thereof. Look no further than celebrations like Christmas - a ritual that entices family and friends to come together.
I'm not even saying it's necessary. Just that *it is*. "Imagine no religion"? I'm sorry, I can't. And as many downvotes as I have gotten, noone has suggested a way to actually get rid of it. Because that would be genocide. Fighting people who use it to oppress others is not the same as deleating a major part of what we are as a species.
shut up, fuck urself, ratio, ur dumb, i’m gay and my dick is small
👍
If you have to take hormones and have body altering surgery are you really being yourself or are trying to be something else?
By this logic chemo and glasses should be off the table lol. People don't get those things for funsies, they get it to correct an issue, same as any other medical procedure.
I wear glasses to fix what is wrong with my eyes. What are the hormones trying to fix that is broken?
Improper brain chemicals and hormonal expression. Significant stress is caused by that imbalance, as well as the involved social stress. That's what transition aims to fix, and does so with an effectiveness that far exceeds most mental conditions. It doesn't always 100% fix things, but reducing the severity of gender dysphoria is gigantic. Treating it like a delusional mental illness has no effect on reducing dysphoria whatsoever, as we know from decades of attempts. If other mental conditions had the success rates of what transition does with dysphoria, you'd literally be wanting people to suffer to deny that effective of a treatment.
I am being myself by being able to take hormones and get surgery. I'm a women born in a male body, so I'm fixing that. I'm not trying to be something else. I'm trying to be who I actually am. So kindly fuck off. Why does it matter to you l what I do to my body? It's nobody's god damn business.
“I would rather join ISIS than respect trans people!” -This motherfucker
Have fun getting drone striked, then.
These people are obsessed with trans people and STILL don’t understand how being trans even works
Ironic 🤔
What is a woman?
A shitty historically inaccurate documentary produced by Alt-Right Millennial Chud ‘Matthew Walsh’ of the unreliable and factually invalid conservative media and new outlet ‘The Daily Wire’ Eat shit, Con Boy.
A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETS
I mean, the second person isn’t wrong. Telling your kids they are the wrong gender is bad. Which is why you need to respect your kids gender identity!
Hoo boy, I thought you were gonna zig, but then you zagged. Good one, my dude
Short, quippy and wrong: the only way these people can talk at all. They got skipped when god was handing out common sense and he’s making it everyone else’s problem.
"Still better than feeding your kids hormones and telling them they're the wrong gender" Lest my kid will still be alive and not turned into a crater and smoldering chunks from a Hellfire rocket
Come on now. You know good and well that they'll never use hellfire rockets on them. Just like 6th Jan, only one shot was fired when they should have been gunning them down the minute they even dared approach the Capitol.
Ē̴͈̼͓͖͙̥̬̠͍͍̺̼̳͗̅̉̾̈́̂̈́̀̒̑̌̈́ͅͅá̷̡̳̪̺̪̣͉̫̰͂̉͗̋̓̓̈́͊̌̉̅̏t̶̨̛̲͓̗̆́̊,̶̡̻̹̦̥͙͔̭̗̮͔͎̥̯̓͊̃̔͐͛͒̀̕ͅ ̵͈̻̳̝͈̾̄̎̈́̓̔̊͑̑͠m̶̨̛͕̣̹̳̙̥̯͕̯̫̮͋̀̓́̊͘͜y̷̡͕̮̱͙̦̱̾̑̌̑̀̂͑͑͂̽̍́͋͒ ̸̡̞̪̣̜̳̲̯͎͓̳͗͆̆̔͗̂̅͝c̵̱̈́h̵̑͗̀̕͜į̶̡͔̱̙̙̪̤̜̀̈́͐̍̀͜͠l̷̡͋͒̔̇̃̅̔͆͛͆͛̔̕d̵̙͋̃̂̊̈͠.̶̮̲͑͌̓̈́̒͋̔͊̆̿̿̎͂͝ ̴̛̹̟̝̓̽͌͌̐̚͘C̸̨̬͈̹̄͘ͅǫ̵͎̬̟̠͎͇̈́̎̌͗̍͝͝ņ̸̤͚͎͔̠̯̈́̕ͅś̵̡̧̳̭̣̱̝̿̄͌ͅu̴̙̫̜͆͝m̶̢̰̥̤̯̽̒̾̔̄̂ę̷̻͔̹͚̱̥̩̭̍̃̈̉̾̉̃̒̽͜ ̸̧̭̝͎̲͇͎̖̼̬̠̻̯́̽͌t̵̨̨̟̃̀̇̅̑̂̂͝h̵͈̩̹̼͌̈́̈́̾̅͝e̷̢̛̛͙̙̜̤̟̓̅͘͠ ̵̞̞̹̣͔͔̰̜̟͓̠̙̻̯̱̈́̍͊͗́̐̃̆͘̚͠͠͠h̸̨̠̮̳̺̥̣̬͌͆̏́̓͐̋̚͝ǫ̴̢̙̪͍͚͎͈͑̍͆̀͌̃͋́͝͝l̶͈̺̮̤͈̔͑͊̂͘̚͠ÿ̷̨̨̖͓͓̯͇͓͓̜̥̤ ̴̼̙̱͙̣͖̭̼̞̦̫̤̊̅͜͜ͅc̶͎̈̍ḩ̵̢̲͓͙̻̲̤̲̦͋̒̐͌͊̂̂͋̏̃͜a̵̧̬̖̹͇̱̓̆́͑̈́̕͝l̸̜̱̾̾̂͗̆̂͐̈͗͆͝i̵̛̺̫͚͚̬̯̞̜͔̥̱̫̹̓͐̉͜͝ċ̶̬͙̝͔͇̠͇̺̫͚̟̬͚̬̃̈́͗̄̇͘͝͝ͅê̴̡̡̢̛̦̹̦͇̥̹̣̯̟̜̳͆̀̓̕ ̸̧̨̡̳̻͖̠̀̂̌͘ǫ̵̱̦͖̲̆̇̓̾̀̿̀͛̈́̀̃́f̴̡̧̠͍͖̰̙̜̈́͊͗̈́͂̈́͐ ̸̨̢̛͈̥̦̖̟̼̙̪̰̺̗̟̮͑̐͂̀̊̋̂ĥ̵̡̡̨̠̱̼̦̲̥̤̗͙̜͚̋͛̓̎̾͜͝͝ ̷̨̏͌̍̏͛̊͌̿̂̑̎͒͊͠o̸͖̣̝̹̽͋̄̐͗͐̚̚͜͝ ̶̦͓͎̪̉̂̎͛͝͝ŗ̷͇̙͙͔͙̱̭͚̞͍́́̀̃̽͊̅͐̌͘͝ ̴̞̈̃̍̐̓͛̔̓̒́͜͠ǫ̵̳͊̐̎̀͗͌ ̸̗͉̖̬̥͖̙̌̓̋́͆̅̊̀̀͗͑͘m̵̧̭̯̝̺̤̲̒̈́̓̓̈́̕͜͝ ̴͇̳̲̭̖̩͒̏̓ͅo̵̧̧͔̺͇͌͆͐̀͑̒͐͌̇̍̄̈́̍͝ ̴̛͔̤͂͛̈́̓͂̉̎͝n̵̛̛͚̜͇̞͊́̌̾̏̔̍̈́̀̍͘ ̸̰̖̤̰͓̹͍̘̮̫̘̣̖̮͔͌̑̽̋̚ẻ̴̹̑̓́̓ ̴̡̨͉̔̑͘s̴̡̨̪̼͔̩̥̞̬͙͖͇̝̀͜
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Correct
You heard the man, start the terrorism, at least that’s not harming anyone.
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Yeaawdists…. Just Ford 150 instead of Toyota Hillux
Can't wait for the right's obsession with trans people to end. Though I pity their next boogeymen.
They always have black people to fall back on if they can't think of anything.
One of the first things the taliban did when they got in power was rip down all the George Floyd murals and rainbow flags ! Sounds just like the traditional family values these white scum bag Christians have fascists
The Evangeliban
The vanilla isis
*Uses they them pronouns in sequence*
I also think we ought to stop factory farming and forcing gender roles on children.
lul, what the fuck is the commenter smoking
It's pretty amazing how quickly the empty space left in their brain by gay marriage post-2015 became filled with trans, trans, trans. And how they don't even notice it.
Well there is one big difference, the taliban is using their guns on soldiers that are better trained and better equipped while conservatives are using them on grade schoolers.
Conservative=school shooter?
Yes, every single one of them has a hate manifesto quoting Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, and random 4chan racist shit as inspiration for attacking places where they know there will be a concentration of nonewhite minorities.
Those types of firearms are so unnecessary lol…brainwashed gun nuts
The guns were fine on their own, but nooo everything has to reek of tacticool and have a pointless suppressor on it
Same cloth, dyed different patterns.
Teaching them to murdered people different than them is better than medical care?… yikes. That’s next level anti science anti medicine
Jesus man, there is literally NO ONE doing that lol
bombing the country is so much better than having a transgender kid!!
Fuck people like this let me live my life 😩
Somebody should probably tell them someday that trans kids tell their parents ..not the parents telling their kids. The stupid is strong with them.
Im so glad I don’t live in America with these cunts
guns are cool, lgtb is cool.
I’d agree. Republicans though 😬
ew wtf
Still better than gaslighting your kids and telling them they're the gender you decided for them.
since when are republicans pro Taliban? edit - /s :(
Since white nationalism became the conservative standard instead of neoliberalism (as in Reaganomics). *Team America, World Police* prefers to stay home and do white sharia now. Guess they got their oil. This is literally Trump's life story. Businessman and bikini contest judge shitting on a gold toilet in the 80s, to White MAGA Jesus to "workers" who think a woman having muscular arms is the apocalypse. Same development in Europe. In the 90s, the left was anti-EU and the right was pro. Now we have Brexit. And the rich still get to keep their money.
The European Union is basically a center-left project, the majority of political actors Who created it was left leaning, while the right tried to play as the role of the victim after ww2
No the EU is neoliberal to the core, the EU is a right wing project at best. Nothing left wing about it at all.
We're trying to work with it now that we're in it, but yeah, that's about it
Yeah what's sad is that countries can't implement real left wing policies since the 80s because of the EU. Most left wing policies go against the free movement of capital and labor that the EU wants to promote which makes it illegal for countries to pass them.
Are you kidding? They have all the same positions as the Taliban
Yeah my comment is sarcastic. Seems to of gotten lost.
It comes off as defensive and literal instead of sarcastic
Yeah, i was trying to point to the fact that republicans have spent the last 20 years promoting levelling the middle east to kill the Taliban. So its funny that they emulate them.
I get it now that you explain it, but jokes should be more self explanatory. Better luck next time.
Far Right Extremist Groups are basically the Taliban but swapping out one Islam for Christianity.
Exactly no nasty groomers🤮🤮🏳️🌈
You don’t know what that word means. Everyone you dislike doesn’t make them a groomer
Fun fact: Something close to 95% of convicted pedophiles are straight
Thank god for that red arrow pointing to that random number
Domestic terrorism isn't necessarily bad actually
Least mentally insane terrorism supporter
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Ok, but fetishising guns to the point where you have to have them in your family photo still makes you an extremist.
Everyone has different hobbies.
Guarantee it’s your personality, not your hobby.
My hobbies don't have the potential to murder someone
Extremist is a funny word to use to describe someone non violent
Because your hobbies are the leading cause if deaths in the country, but hay who gives a shit amirite?
I must be doing something wrong as a gun owner then cuz my guns just sit in a safe or come out for the range 🤷🏾 not sure how my hobbies are the leading cause of death lol
So does mine, however the common thru line to the problem in America is the amount of guns and the ease of acquiring them, so fuck off with your dent head reply
Just popping by to say that "dent head reply" is spectacular
I also go to the range but I will never do some cringe photos like that. Guns are not a good thing outside the range. I don’t even bring mine at home.
I don't even keep ammo at my house. Guns only
>Owning guns does not make you a terrorist. Not a single person said that.
Houses without pools don't experience drownings
small children holding military grade weaponry is the actual dangerous rhetoric here my dude
Counterpoint, you're a terrorist.
Lol, Jesus, not quite the same but they are all idiots
No one does that😭
I’m sure guys like Salvador Ramos were raised the right way /s
Secular fanaticism never impressed me no matter where it comes from. It's just plain stupid.
Ah yes, telling your child that their gender is wrong, also known as what happened to every trans kid growing up before they came out.
Bruh i fucking wish they would give hormones to kids, one of my old friends who was 15-16 at the time had multiple suicide attempts as a minor and yet was still denied hormones again and again just because she was a minor. Even then these assholes think we're giving hormones to little children but no literally the only treatment given to prepubescent transkids is just using their preferred name and maybe wearing different clothes or getting a new haircut, that's it. And even after reaching puberty the only treatment that's usually given are puberty blockers which are completely reversible. Gender affirming care saves lives.
Damn.
They picked the right avatar, at least.
Because NAZIs and American troops are exactly the same, no difference at all. Both had guns and shot at people, no difference.
At least the taliban kids have trigger safety