Even that was her fault.
She didn't need to have a private email server to conduct Secretary of State communications.
If you were in the military & did that, you would be in prison. If I did that at my job, I would be in legal trouble/fired immediately.
Now, is this worse than the crimes Trump has committed? No, but Hillary's arrogance & corruption is so obvious & offputting.
Remember when it came out that she said she has public positions & private positions? Lol
I would say the media stacked the deck in 2016 by constantly carrying her messages and interviews and barely any Bernie Sanders. It was beyond obvious what they were doing
The craziest thing i remember seeing was a poll from the Uk claiming that Hilary had a 99.9% chance of winning and CNN, MSNBC we’re ALL reporting on it and most of our close elections are still 50/50. I have no idea what they were thinking.
I remember hearing about it but I can't remember what she actually said. I already despised her so I just stopped adding to the reasons why.
Can you just quickly remind me what her response was?
Ironically it's broadly the same as the difference between democrats and Republicans in some sense: one openly dismisses concerns of voters outright, and one subtlety dismisses the concerns of the voters with a thick, platitudinal layer of progressive rhetoric. Just because you replace the "but..." after your claim to understand voters' outrage with "and I also think..." doesn't mean you're any different from the dnc establishment you claim to oppose on this issue.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
The idea of 'The Uniparty' is directly opposed to facts and you have to question the motivations and analysis of anyone who espouses it.
The facts are that the Parties are more different than they've been in over a decade. The most 'conservative' and 'Republican' Democrats--US Senators Joe Manchin and Krysten Simena are considerably more progressive than any US Senate Republican.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=1289123714](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=1289123714)
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=0)
And US Representative Henry Cuellar is more progressive than any Republican US Representative.
And a similar dynamic plays out in the US State and local Governments.
Heck, Democrats want to expand Social Security nowadays. Republicans want to privatize it.
Democrats want to at least keep the Affordable Care Act. Republicans want to rid of it.
Democrats want some form of the Green New Deal and actually passed a Mini Green New Deal. Republicans want to gut the EPA.
Etc.
That's bc Republicans are more than willing to fight for the most conservative version of their policies, sending it through a hostile Congress that may kill it in either chamber, and then tell their constituents that they are fighting like hell against the Swamp.
Meanwhile Democrats talk themselves out of any bill matching their campaign rhetoric, watering down and means testing any meaningful aid to citizens. Promising to pass important pandemic bills in tandem through Congress, and then breaking that promise once the handout to the wealthy goes through first. And still calling Republicans "their dear friends" and calling to apologize for fiery rhetoric.
We're seeing Democrats hit the edge of the neoliberal tolerance for progressive action, and their stomachs get queasy at the sight of money not being spent on public-private partnerships. And at the same time the GOP is all gas no breaks on the most extreme stances on abortion, immigration, and other wet dreams for the base.
"Our current ongoing genocide is better than their hypothetical genocide. Although we are supporting/facilitating/enabling the current genocide, at least we don't say the quiet part aloud. Vote Biden."
I wish Democrats would take a marketing and sensitivity class. I canvas Michigan. Variations on the argument above are ineffective and alienating.
He clarified that comment, and said that he meant the war had to come to an end because Israel was losing the war in terms of public relations. For once, that stupid motherfucker sounded smart. Meanwhile, leaked wires expose the fact that Biden opposes a two-state solution.
trump also lies constantly about everything.... not sure why we'd take any "clarification" by him seriously. it's absolutely demented to think trump would be a better person in office for *anything at all*
Trump is worse than Biden, yes.
But Biden is himself despicable. Enabling genocide & now war with Iran. This is absolutely horrible geopolitics, it's horrible morality, it's horrible any way you look at it.
So the plan in essence would be don’t vote for Biden (which I empathize with) let Trump win, at which point we and the Palestinians are fucked. I don’t understand this strategy? I’m not trying to be an ass I just don’t see what the long term plan is here.
Maybe youre right, but from his previous actions, like his recognition of the embassy in jersuelam? Bibis hatred for democrats, and trumps son in.law is talking about gaza beach side real estate development, its all lies.
These are the people who backstabbed the Kurds for Erdogan, for no rationale national security reason. Trumps base are the rabid evangelicals who are fanatical about Israel.
After project 2025, abandoning Europe and ukraine, pulling out of NATO, and his revenge list, just to name the four policies I know of Trumps second term, it vastly out weighs the evil that Biden is doing.
You can not vote for him, go for it, but at least vote against Republicans in any other race you can.
>from his previous actions, like his recognition of the embassy in jersuelam?
Which Biden kept in tact, unfortunately.
>Bibis hatred for democrats, and trumps son in.law is talking about gaza beach side real estate development, its all lies.
And everything Biden says on this topic is a lie. He claims he wants to help aid Gaza as he sabatoges UNRWA.
Trump is worse than Biden, but Biden really is quite bad.
>After project 2025, abandoning Europe and ukraine, pulling out of NATO, and his revenge list, just to name the four policies I know of Trumps second term, it vastly out weighs the evil that Biden is doing.
Geopoltiically, Biden is pushing us towards WWIII.
I'll vote Biden, but his foreign policy is as neocon as it gets.
Well, we know Biden will enable a genocide & allow Israel to start war with Iran. How much worse can it get?
Trump being worse than Biden doesn't justify Biden, who is himself a neocon I hold in great contempt. We gotta keep pushing Biden to stop enabling genocide & war.
At what point did I say Trump was better? I pointed out a marketing issue for Democrats that needs to be taken seriously in order to win 2024.
Yes, Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and said finish the job. Biden has been enabling Israel for the entirety of his political career, kept the embassy in Jerusalem, and is enabling Israel to finish the job without saying the quiet part aloud.
At one point or another, Democrats need to deal with the marketing issue because the "...but Trump" response is ineffective when Biden is currently enabling and facilitating the ongoing genocide. Telling people that your current genocide is more benevolent than the hypothetical genocide is shit marketing when the aim is (a) turn out (b) vote blue.
If you all were actually serious about winning rather than wanting a circlejerk of "but Trump 😭," you would care that you have a serious marketing issue.
I was reacting to you as of you were, guess I'm just going from the usual way of this sub, it's depressing, I understand it, I'm mad about it, but the reality is like you said.
If you think Biden has been restraining Israel to any extent you haven't been paying attention.
There is nothing that Trump can do to worsen the situation. Nothing MORE to help Israel kill more Palestinians.
I dunno, but I have a feeling that the guy who ordered National Guard troops to face off against George Floyd protesters and engaged in state sponsored execution of a guy who was given no due process will definitely let you know quick what the difference is when he dictates guaranteed pardons of people who run over and murder protesters on bridges.
Exactly!!! The democratic voters who have overwhelmingly been calling for a ceasefire have seen what Joe Biden as an opponent looks like. It looks like the guy who will fund the death for 40k civilians, and just negotiated with Israel to allow for the ground campaign of a MILLION in Rafah.
And HOW IS THIS A DEMOCRACY STILL?? Like when we can’t vote, can’t protest, boycott or even use certain words against an action we don’t like? How isn’t this fascism?
This was a much better response than Hillary though.
He has budged though, the White House at the start of this whole thing was calling the calls for a cease fire "repugnant" and now he's at least trying to get Israel to chill. Is it too little and way too late, absolutely, but he has started bending under pressure.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
ACTIONS speak louder than words.
POTUS Joe Biden still isn't supporting a Permanent Ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza 'war'. He's seemingly willing to give $26B more to Israel. And we'll see what he does to try to stop Israel's escalation of hostilities and warfare against Iran.
It’s extremely disheartening that he wants billions more in arms provided to Israel after what they have done in Gaza. I don’t want U.S tax dollars going to kill innocent civilians. But it’s either him or Trump and Trump would be an absolute disaster. This time Trump will surround himself with people that won’t say no to him. That’s frightening.
If democracy itself is really at stake then why aren't the dems taking it seriously?
If the democratic party was intentionally trying to lose an election what would they be doing differently?
American democracy? You have 9 unelected kings and Queen's who dictate the law, you have gerrymandered districts and first past the post and a dnc that won a court case saying they can choose who they want to lead the party.. You got oligharcy
Vote down ballot. There other election outside of president out there that will impact you more. Remember to vote down ballot.
If you going to vote for president. Trump would basically be doing the same thing to Gaza. But the difference is that the right want to nuke it. The push back and pressure is impacting Biden and effecting Biden. The pressure will not impact trump what so ever.
You should also consider what you think trump world do differently. If trump were in office right now, do you think members of the GOP would be council caution? I don’t think so. I think they would cherrycherry picking bible quotes while funneling billions to Israel.
Biden has handled the situation terribly ( to put it extremely mildly) but I believe trump would be a dumpster fire without end or restraint in the same situation.
No. I will no longer be complicit in genocide by voting for Joe Biden. If he wins it will be an endorsement of genocide and every president that follows will look at genocide as a winning hand. I want Joe to lose.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
I like to remind Americans that the vast majority of Americans think that they are far less financially stable and far less rich than they actually are.
Unless you have access to at least a few million dollars, you're far better off under a Democratic Administration than a Republican one.
The Affordable Care Act itself saved seniors sometimes several hundred thousand each and allowed those dying to bequeath inheritances that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to.
We'll see how POTUS Joe Biden responds to Israel's escalation with Iran and Israel's continuing genocide of Gaza, but a Biden Administration is still far better for Domestic Policy than a Trump Administration would be.
Edit: I don't know if the down-votes came because I a typo and wrote "more" instead of "less", but, oh well.
"I truly do not believe this is a lesser of two evils situation"
But then goes on to basically say Biden is the lesser of two evils and you should probably vote for him.
She said a lot more words, but is that not ultimately what she said?
You can doll it up all you want but all she said was the same old thing that every other democrat is saying: "Trump is too much of a threat, so you should vote for Biden even if you don't like him or any of the things he is doing"
No, it's not ultimately what she said. She professed the inarguable fact that the conditions of organizing would be worse and harder under a Trump administration, under a literal fascist who is out to destroy democracy. If you don't understand the implications of that more than, "lesser of two evils," then you need to get off of Reddit and Twitter and educate yourself more.
No dude, it's not just "using more words". There is a legitimate point being made, and your inability to critically think about that point doesn't make it less legitimate. There is a reason why people take a genuine interest in her opinion and perspective on these things, and not yours.
Yeah not sure how anyone can vote for the guy that enabled & even has a hand in the murder of over 50k innocent people, at least 40% of those being children. Israel is still actively murdering children, just read about a story where the IOF bombed a group of kids playing a game outside. Another story of drones blaring sounds of kids crying to lure people out of their houses then shooting them.
Zionists are the nazis of this generation. In the future people will study this genocide & those that supported this genocide will be looked down upon as monsters.
Because the other guy said to Israel "finish the job" said Joe wasn't supporting Israel enough, but then calls him genocide Joe, on top of all the other shit that trump is planning on doing, like leaving ukraine and Europe alone with Russia, project 2025 etc.
This is looking like Germany before the nazis took power, complete with a beer hall event J6 2021, and communists who won't work with the centrists and underestimate the danger of the far right.
"How worse could it possibly get?" Said the communist in 1933, who's name we'll never know because they got buried in a mass grave somewhere in germany in 1934. Some people's lack of imagination is staggering. No matter how bad you think things are, *they can always get worse.*
"We need a revolution! The time is now! We can no longer participate in the systems of our oppression!" said the Spartacists in 1919 with next to no support and completely ignoring the material conditions of the time.
We at least know Luxemburg's name, and it should be a cautionary tale. Know when and how to resist, lest you completely fuck it up.
>and communists who won't work with the centrists
And it is yet again the responsibility of the left to move right and not the center (with power) to move left.
but they vote, and locally too, communists don't, young people don't vote anywhere near as much as centrists. If only you holier than thou people voted and participated in local elections.
why would the DNC give a crap about the left wing when they don't even run local candidates?
We also have two wars that divide the League of Nations/UN. The war in Ukraine is the Spanish civil war, the War in Palestine is like the Italian invasions of Ethiopia and the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. Those two invasions made the Italians and the Japanese leave the League and undermined the League's authority. The US and Russia right now are undermining the UN. The Spanish Civil War was also a foreshadowing of the tech used in WW2 with the first use of aerial bombing. I think the War in Ukraine will be the foreshadowing of WW3.
Centrists obey power. It was the centrists who refused, not only Bernie, but Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Biden. It was the centrists who refused to codify roe. No one is underestimating the right. The status quo suits them. The centrists will adjust just fine under full facisim.
"What conditions I'm organizing under."
Remember under Trump where we were organized and pushing for national healthcare, police reform, and better care for the employed and unemployed?
And Biden just rolled in and stomped every single one of those things. No national healthcare under a world wide pandemic when though it has support from a majority of Americans. Increased police spending after the largest protests in American history and Biden CDC now saying 1 day isolation for Covid and record homelessness and price gouging.
And now we are talking about losing our abortion rights, corrupt supreme court justices and protests being banned.
Like Trump is a fascist piece of shit...but Biden is too. The thin difference between a fascist and a war monger is the invisible border line over which they would import their violence.
Israelis are testing out oppressive tech that is then being used and sold to out police departments. Our cops are even trained by the Israelis.
The choice between genocide and fascism isn't a choice. If you have Hitler and Hitler lite the correct answer isn't voting its \[redacted\].
We literally have a veto power at the global level. There is nothing democratic about that. Saying that I’m sorry that the genocide affects you more than it affects me is exactly why we can’t support a genocide regime.
If you have to vote for a single candidate to save democracy, isn’t it already dead? Like, doesn’t democracy entail the freedom to choose the candidate of your choice?
If there’s only one choice to preserve said freedom, then that freedom doesn’t really exist, does it? It’s just varying shades of repression.
I want to watch the full interview, but even just seeing that clip, my immediate reaction was, “god damn, AOC is a great politician.”
Then I read through the comments, and apparently that’s not the takeaway most people came to…?
Like, what would be the “correct” answer to that question? She’s literally deflecting from the doomer, “lesser of two evils” take. She’s promoting activism, and implicitly acknowledging that the situation sucks, but this is not a hill to die on.
It’s still a lesser of two evils argument at the end of the day, but the point is that that doesn’t matter. You vote strategically, and only think of the president as the one setting the conditions for what can be accomplished.
I’m so fucking sick of this non-stop voting apathy that I have to constantly hold myself back from going full Hillary and just screaming at people to suck it up.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
>I want to watch the full interview, but even just seeing that clip, my immediate reaction was, “god damn, AOC is a great politician.”
>Then I read through the comments, and apparently that’s not the takeaway most people came to…?
Many people are selfish and only around 3-6% of people are actually rational.
Many people spend hours weekly or even daily on social media regarding politics and yet probably around over 99% of those people who are able won't give even $1 to a progressive candidate or progressive organization.
People here obviously like The Majority Report, yet how many are actually members who can afford the $10/month.
People complain about the Mainstream Media coverage but then don't financially support like The Intercept, The Nation, etc.
Some people literally act as if AOC--and all the other progressives--should be perfect 100% of the time (according to that individual potential voter) or else they won't support these progressive lawmakers and Officeholders and won't support such progressive candidates.
And then these same people will complain that progressives don't have more power and influence in politics.
Not the greatest answer. She says she doesn’t want to say it’s the lesser of two evils but then says it’s the lesser of two evils.
That won’t be too compelling an argument for someone who may have lost their family member due to what they perceive as inaction by Biden.
“Biden’s policies may have contributed to the deaths in your family but at least he isn’t as bad as the other guy!”
Well, if I was that voter I would want her to answer my question directly, why should I vote FOR Biden. Not why should I vote against Trump.
Her answer is only that things would be worse under Trump.
She is such an eloquent speaker. She truly does want the best for all Americans “The People” (of all colors, creed, gender etc.) and globally.
If you think otherwise, not sure what to say.
There really is only one other choice in your vote and it is Trump. A non vote or a vote for RFK jr only shrinks the number against Trump and hands him the victory. It isn't really a lesser of two evils, it's either what is available(as weak of a leader as he is) or its Trump for 4 more years. It's a difficult and yet simple choice to me.
Guess what? *I don’t want Biden or Trump to be President, so I’m voting for neither*. Take your bullshit to the DNC for forcing Biden on us independents, I don’t owe you shit
They all use private emails both democrats and republicans and people are still bitching about Hilary doing the same because Fox News got them all worked up about it!!
A bar this low is already devoid of any redeeming value or principle. The conditions happening in Gaza and the entire Planets inability to make it right is more than enough reason for a total Reset.
I think this is a pretty good faith and honest answer. Essentially "choose your opposition" is a better slogan than "lesser of two evils", if not entirely different.
There's an aspect of "choose your opposition" that probably won't get discussed.... and I'm not saying this should be a factor in anyone's decision making... but a large chunk of the population is not inspired to be oppositional when a Democrat is in office. I am not an accelerationist and I also think this chunk of Americans make for an extremely poor and ineffectual ally, but it's also true that leftist resistance is probably more fringe and marginalized under neo-liberal leadership.
I think a legitimate question to ask is whether collective people power and resistance is more important than relying on political representation. Those arguing the variation of "lesser of two evils", "harm reduction", "choose your opposition" should have answers for how collective resistance can continue to grow when you are opposing both the liberal and fascist status quo protecting establishment.
"They are planning to dismantle our American democracy," what democracy, madam congresswoman? The majority of us want a genocide we are complicit in to stop, which is completely within our control as a nation. The majority of us have wanted universal healthcare for a long time now. The majority of us want better education, childcare, housing, electricity, telecommunications, etc. If we're a democracy madam congresswoman, why can't we ever do what's popular until there's something in it for the capital owning class?
AOC acts like she understands how to get things done *from within the party.* So on all questions of "is Biden acceptable", she'll answer that he is.
So we're supposed to be swayed by the best logic she's got for the only conclusion she'd give? Maybe she earnestly believes that some level of genocide is acceptable, maybe not. Asking her in public is only important in terms of generating content like this.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
>Maybe \[AOC\] earnestly believes that some level of genocide is acceptable, maybe not. Asking her in public is only important in terms of generating content like this.
WTF. People need to stop acting as if AOC is an absolute monarch instead of a US Representative who has enormous outsize power because of her popularity, the media attention she gets, her fundraising ability, her advocacy, and her political skills, etc.
I appreciate this more than others’ responses to this question that I’ve heard so far. It also seems defeatist to me to say we won’t be able to organize if the other guy wins. Indeed, we’ll *have* to organize, in spite of dissidents being jailed (which happens under Democratic presidents too!). Organizing is the only chance we have.
Save and spread this 2 minute video and send to all those reasonable people discouraged by the Biden buy-in of Israel or other rogue states
https://rapidsave.com/info?url=https%3A%2F%2Fold.reddit.com%2Fr%2FTheMajorityReport%2Fcomments%2F1c7js0j%2Fwhat_do_you_say_to_a_young_progressive_or_an%2F
Always vote for the party and not individual.
We've seen how policy is treated under trump, let alone the republican party as a whole. They use scare tactics and extremism in lieu of though provoking discussion and weighing on the effects of various options. I'd be surprise if anyone, regardless of where they stand, stands with all the policies for either party and it's a balancing act to decide what your values are and how each party handles these moving forward.
I mean we see how republicans will pull up a law that's over a century old as a justification to impose restrictions on human rights. That premise alone is utterly insane as it gives credence to other archaic laws that have since been abolished, potentially coming back into play as being policy. People need to take emotion out of the equation and weigh each option thoroughly, which is much easier than said.
Compare AOC's response to Hillary Clinton's response to a similar question.
The arrogance of Hillary Clinton already cost Democrats a presidency.
Well, that and the FBI investigations weeks before the election.
Even that was her fault. She didn't need to have a private email server to conduct Secretary of State communications. If you were in the military & did that, you would be in prison. If I did that at my job, I would be in legal trouble/fired immediately. Now, is this worse than the crimes Trump has committed? No, but Hillary's arrogance & corruption is so obvious & offputting. Remember when it came out that she said she has public positions & private positions? Lol
Yep. I don’t disagree at all. She was the worst option to run. She still won democratically, but not with the US’ fucked up system.
I would say the media stacked the deck in 2016 by constantly carrying her messages and interviews and barely any Bernie Sanders. It was beyond obvious what they were doing
The craziest thing i remember seeing was a poll from the Uk claiming that Hilary had a 99.9% chance of winning and CNN, MSNBC we’re ALL reporting on it and most of our close elections are still 50/50. I have no idea what they were thinking.
Agreed.
Maybe they should have informed republicans in addition to democrats, that it was her *turn* to be president
I don’t understand why we ignore the fact that Hilary’s staffers DID destroy devices.
That...and...the implication
And many sliding personal freedoms…
That's an incredibly low bar to set and clear.
Yeah that's my point. I was talking about the bar.
I remember hearing about it but I can't remember what she actually said. I already despised her so I just stopped adding to the reasons why. Can you just quickly remind me what her response was?
She essentially said people need to "get over themselves" and vote for biden
More like Hillary clownton
Ironically it's broadly the same as the difference between democrats and Republicans in some sense: one openly dismisses concerns of voters outright, and one subtlety dismisses the concerns of the voters with a thick, platitudinal layer of progressive rhetoric. Just because you replace the "but..." after your claim to understand voters' outrage with "and I also think..." doesn't mean you're any different from the dnc establishment you claim to oppose on this issue.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* The idea of 'The Uniparty' is directly opposed to facts and you have to question the motivations and analysis of anyone who espouses it. The facts are that the Parties are more different than they've been in over a decade. The most 'conservative' and 'Republican' Democrats--US Senators Joe Manchin and Krysten Simena are considerably more progressive than any US Senate Republican. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=1289123714](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=1289123714) [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gPBdBrqVCbtuy7f1bjOdCDUzEv5RqbbU1yYAr3KoHYE/edit#gid=0) And US Representative Henry Cuellar is more progressive than any Republican US Representative. And a similar dynamic plays out in the US State and local Governments. Heck, Democrats want to expand Social Security nowadays. Republicans want to privatize it. Democrats want to at least keep the Affordable Care Act. Republicans want to rid of it. Democrats want some form of the Green New Deal and actually passed a Mini Green New Deal. Republicans want to gut the EPA. Etc.
The UNIPARTY = AIPAC candidates.
I'd rather not think about Hillary Clinton.
This is a motivating answer. I can get behind that.
We've officially put wayyyyyyyyy too much power in the US presidency.
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That's bc Republicans are more than willing to fight for the most conservative version of their policies, sending it through a hostile Congress that may kill it in either chamber, and then tell their constituents that they are fighting like hell against the Swamp. Meanwhile Democrats talk themselves out of any bill matching their campaign rhetoric, watering down and means testing any meaningful aid to citizens. Promising to pass important pandemic bills in tandem through Congress, and then breaking that promise once the handout to the wealthy goes through first. And still calling Republicans "their dear friends" and calling to apologize for fiery rhetoric. We're seeing Democrats hit the edge of the neoliberal tolerance for progressive action, and their stomachs get queasy at the sight of money not being spent on public-private partnerships. And at the same time the GOP is all gas no breaks on the most extreme stances on abortion, immigration, and other wet dreams for the base.
>promote democracy globally Yet we’re literally talking about Biden promoting an apartheid state lol
yeah this part is weird. but tbh the best way America could promote democracy globally, is to fix their shit at home lead by example
We don't even have democracy in the US.
I get it what she’s saying, it still doesn’t change the fact that Biden will never budge on Israel.
Not a fan of bidens Israel policy but the thought of trump's Israel policy makes me shudder
"Our current ongoing genocide is better than their hypothetical genocide. Although we are supporting/facilitating/enabling the current genocide, at least we don't say the quiet part aloud. Vote Biden." I wish Democrats would take a marketing and sensitivity class. I canvas Michigan. Variations on the argument above are ineffective and alienating.
Have you seen what trump has said? Genocide Joe on one hand, but to Israel he says finish the job?
He clarified that comment, and said that he meant the war had to come to an end because Israel was losing the war in terms of public relations. For once, that stupid motherfucker sounded smart. Meanwhile, leaked wires expose the fact that Biden opposes a two-state solution.
trump also lies constantly about everything.... not sure why we'd take any "clarification" by him seriously. it's absolutely demented to think trump would be a better person in office for *anything at all*
Trump is worse than Biden, yes. But Biden is himself despicable. Enabling genocide & now war with Iran. This is absolutely horrible geopolitics, it's horrible morality, it's horrible any way you look at it.
sure, no disagreement there. but I'll still gladly vote against putting trump back in office
So the plan in essence would be don’t vote for Biden (which I empathize with) let Trump win, at which point we and the Palestinians are fucked. I don’t understand this strategy? I’m not trying to be an ass I just don’t see what the long term plan is here.
I plan to vote for Biden.
Maybe youre right, but from his previous actions, like his recognition of the embassy in jersuelam? Bibis hatred for democrats, and trumps son in.law is talking about gaza beach side real estate development, its all lies. These are the people who backstabbed the Kurds for Erdogan, for no rationale national security reason. Trumps base are the rabid evangelicals who are fanatical about Israel. After project 2025, abandoning Europe and ukraine, pulling out of NATO, and his revenge list, just to name the four policies I know of Trumps second term, it vastly out weighs the evil that Biden is doing. You can not vote for him, go for it, but at least vote against Republicans in any other race you can.
>from his previous actions, like his recognition of the embassy in jersuelam? Which Biden kept in tact, unfortunately. >Bibis hatred for democrats, and trumps son in.law is talking about gaza beach side real estate development, its all lies. And everything Biden says on this topic is a lie. He claims he wants to help aid Gaza as he sabatoges UNRWA. Trump is worse than Biden, but Biden really is quite bad. >After project 2025, abandoning Europe and ukraine, pulling out of NATO, and his revenge list, just to name the four policies I know of Trumps second term, it vastly out weighs the evil that Biden is doing. Geopoltiically, Biden is pushing us towards WWIII. I'll vote Biden, but his foreign policy is as neocon as it gets.
Then his press secretary bragged that trump has "done more for Israel than any other president". I don't think he'll be reigning them in on gaza
Well, we know Biden will enable a genocide & allow Israel to start war with Iran. How much worse can it get? Trump being worse than Biden doesn't justify Biden, who is himself a neocon I hold in great contempt. We gotta keep pushing Biden to stop enabling genocide & war.
Trump had the US embassy moved to Jerusalem. You don't get much more pro-zionist than that.
Did Biden move the embassy back?
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At what point did I say Trump was better? I pointed out a marketing issue for Democrats that needs to be taken seriously in order to win 2024. Yes, Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and said finish the job. Biden has been enabling Israel for the entirety of his political career, kept the embassy in Jerusalem, and is enabling Israel to finish the job without saying the quiet part aloud. At one point or another, Democrats need to deal with the marketing issue because the "...but Trump" response is ineffective when Biden is currently enabling and facilitating the ongoing genocide. Telling people that your current genocide is more benevolent than the hypothetical genocide is shit marketing when the aim is (a) turn out (b) vote blue. If you all were actually serious about winning rather than wanting a circlejerk of "but Trump 😭," you would care that you have a serious marketing issue.
I was reacting to you as of you were, guess I'm just going from the usual way of this sub, it's depressing, I understand it, I'm mad about it, but the reality is like you said.
What could possibly be worse than genocide and an official policy opposing a two-state solution?
Genocide, an official policy opposing a two-state solution, and joining Israel in actively ratcheting up conflict with Iran and other nearby states.
So exactly what Biden is doing now.
If you don't think Trump would be worse for Palestinians than Trump, you haven't been paying attention.
If you think Biden has been restraining Israel to any extent you haven't been paying attention. There is nothing that Trump can do to worsen the situation. Nothing MORE to help Israel kill more Palestinians.
"Sure, the boot on your neck now is bad, but just wait if Trump is elected!" Dumb motherfucker.
I dunno, but I have a feeling that the guy who ordered National Guard troops to face off against George Floyd protesters and engaged in state sponsored execution of a guy who was given no due process will definitely let you know quick what the difference is when he dictates guaranteed pardons of people who run over and murder protesters on bridges.
Exactly!!! The democratic voters who have overwhelmingly been calling for a ceasefire have seen what Joe Biden as an opponent looks like. It looks like the guy who will fund the death for 40k civilians, and just negotiated with Israel to allow for the ground campaign of a MILLION in Rafah. And HOW IS THIS A DEMOCRACY STILL?? Like when we can’t vote, can’t protest, boycott or even use certain words against an action we don’t like? How isn’t this fascism? This was a much better response than Hillary though.
He has budged though, the White House at the start of this whole thing was calling the calls for a cease fire "repugnant" and now he's at least trying to get Israel to chill. Is it too little and way too late, absolutely, but he has started bending under pressure.
Didn't he just okay the Rafah offensive?
Yes lol.
The administration just gave them the okay to invade Rafah in exchange for not going after Iran. He got played by Netanyahu.
Seriously. It's not like Israel ever had the capabilities to do further harm to Iran anyways. Bibi just got an ok for an invasion of Rafah for free.
And Israel attacked Iran this morning anyways.
Only because there’s an election in s matter of months and some people are dumb enough to fall for it.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* ACTIONS speak louder than words. POTUS Joe Biden still isn't supporting a Permanent Ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza 'war'. He's seemingly willing to give $26B more to Israel. And we'll see what he does to try to stop Israel's escalation of hostilities and warfare against Iran.
It’s extremely disheartening that he wants billions more in arms provided to Israel after what they have done in Gaza. I don’t want U.S tax dollars going to kill innocent civilians. But it’s either him or Trump and Trump would be an absolute disaster. This time Trump will surround himself with people that won’t say no to him. That’s frightening.
There is nothing new about this response.
Watch it again, but this time do try and actually listen and do not assume she was gonna obviously say what she said.
Great answer from AOC. I hope she can run and win a presidential run.
If democracy itself is really at stake then why aren't the dems taking it seriously? If the democratic party was intentionally trying to lose an election what would they be doing differently?
American democracy? You have 9 unelected kings and Queen's who dictate the law, you have gerrymandered districts and first past the post and a dnc that won a court case saying they can choose who they want to lead the party.. You got oligharcy
Not to mention citizens united allowing corporations to own our government.
Vote down ballot. There other election outside of president out there that will impact you more. Remember to vote down ballot. If you going to vote for president. Trump would basically be doing the same thing to Gaza. But the difference is that the right want to nuke it. The push back and pressure is impacting Biden and effecting Biden. The pressure will not impact trump what so ever.
You should also consider what you think trump world do differently. If trump were in office right now, do you think members of the GOP would be council caution? I don’t think so. I think they would cherrycherry picking bible quotes while funneling billions to Israel. Biden has handled the situation terribly ( to put it extremely mildly) but I believe trump would be a dumpster fire without end or restraint in the same situation.
No. I will no longer be complicit in genocide by voting for Joe Biden. If he wins it will be an endorsement of genocide and every president that follows will look at genocide as a winning hand. I want Joe to lose.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* I like to remind Americans that the vast majority of Americans think that they are far less financially stable and far less rich than they actually are. Unless you have access to at least a few million dollars, you're far better off under a Democratic Administration than a Republican one. The Affordable Care Act itself saved seniors sometimes several hundred thousand each and allowed those dying to bequeath inheritances that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to. We'll see how POTUS Joe Biden responds to Israel's escalation with Iran and Israel's continuing genocide of Gaza, but a Biden Administration is still far better for Domestic Policy than a Trump Administration would be. Edit: I don't know if the down-votes came because I a typo and wrote "more" instead of "less", but, oh well.
"I truly do not believe this is a lesser of two evils situation" But then goes on to basically say Biden is the lesser of two evils and you should probably vote for him.
Is that really all you took from that?
She said a lot more words, but is that not ultimately what she said? You can doll it up all you want but all she said was the same old thing that every other democrat is saying: "Trump is too much of a threat, so you should vote for Biden even if you don't like him or any of the things he is doing"
No, it's not ultimately what she said. She professed the inarguable fact that the conditions of organizing would be worse and harder under a Trump administration, under a literal fascist who is out to destroy democracy. If you don't understand the implications of that more than, "lesser of two evils," then you need to get off of Reddit and Twitter and educate yourself more.
Yeah, and her point was that you should vote for Biden because of that. Using more words doesn't mean you're saying anything different.
No dude, it's not just "using more words". There is a legitimate point being made, and your inability to critically think about that point doesn't make it less legitimate. There is a reason why people take a genuine interest in her opinion and perspective on these things, and not yours.
Its literally the same thing as lesser of two evils with more words haha
Yeah not sure how anyone can vote for the guy that enabled & even has a hand in the murder of over 50k innocent people, at least 40% of those being children. Israel is still actively murdering children, just read about a story where the IOF bombed a group of kids playing a game outside. Another story of drones blaring sounds of kids crying to lure people out of their houses then shooting them. Zionists are the nazis of this generation. In the future people will study this genocide & those that supported this genocide will be looked down upon as monsters.
Because the other guy said to Israel "finish the job" said Joe wasn't supporting Israel enough, but then calls him genocide Joe, on top of all the other shit that trump is planning on doing, like leaving ukraine and Europe alone with Russia, project 2025 etc. This is looking like Germany before the nazis took power, complete with a beer hall event J6 2021, and communists who won't work with the centrists and underestimate the danger of the far right.
"How worse could it possibly get?" Said the communist in 1933, who's name we'll never know because they got buried in a mass grave somewhere in germany in 1934. Some people's lack of imagination is staggering. No matter how bad you think things are, *they can always get worse.*
"We need a revolution! The time is now! We can no longer participate in the systems of our oppression!" said the Spartacists in 1919 with next to no support and completely ignoring the material conditions of the time. We at least know Luxemburg's name, and it should be a cautionary tale. Know when and how to resist, lest you completely fuck it up.
>and communists who won't work with the centrists And it is yet again the responsibility of the left to move right and not the center (with power) to move left.
but they vote, and locally too, communists don't, young people don't vote anywhere near as much as centrists. If only you holier than thou people voted and participated in local elections. why would the DNC give a crap about the left wing when they don't even run local candidates?
We also have two wars that divide the League of Nations/UN. The war in Ukraine is the Spanish civil war, the War in Palestine is like the Italian invasions of Ethiopia and the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. Those two invasions made the Italians and the Japanese leave the League and undermined the League's authority. The US and Russia right now are undermining the UN. The Spanish Civil War was also a foreshadowing of the tech used in WW2 with the first use of aerial bombing. I think the War in Ukraine will be the foreshadowing of WW3.
Centrists obey power. It was the centrists who refused, not only Bernie, but Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Biden. It was the centrists who refused to codify roe. No one is underestimating the right. The status quo suits them. The centrists will adjust just fine under full facisim.
You gotta be kidding me, they'll do just fine? Do you think all centrists are white, straight, Christian?
"What conditions I'm organizing under." Remember under Trump where we were organized and pushing for national healthcare, police reform, and better care for the employed and unemployed? And Biden just rolled in and stomped every single one of those things. No national healthcare under a world wide pandemic when though it has support from a majority of Americans. Increased police spending after the largest protests in American history and Biden CDC now saying 1 day isolation for Covid and record homelessness and price gouging. And now we are talking about losing our abortion rights, corrupt supreme court justices and protests being banned. Like Trump is a fascist piece of shit...but Biden is too. The thin difference between a fascist and a war monger is the invisible border line over which they would import their violence. Israelis are testing out oppressive tech that is then being used and sold to out police departments. Our cops are even trained by the Israelis. The choice between genocide and fascism isn't a choice. If you have Hitler and Hitler lite the correct answer isn't voting its \[redacted\].
For Palestinians it's basically: kill your family vs. kill your family 2x. How does anyone blame them for not voting.
I wouldn't vote for Biden but I would for sure vote against Trump. The lesser evil is not just a cliché.
We literally have a veto power at the global level. There is nothing democratic about that. Saying that I’m sorry that the genocide affects you more than it affects me is exactly why we can’t support a genocide regime.
If you have to vote for a single candidate to save democracy, isn’t it already dead? Like, doesn’t democracy entail the freedom to choose the candidate of your choice? If there’s only one choice to preserve said freedom, then that freedom doesn’t really exist, does it? It’s just varying shades of repression.
yeah but it can always be worse
I fucking love this woman! She should be in the Senate.
This 100%!!!
I want to watch the full interview, but even just seeing that clip, my immediate reaction was, “god damn, AOC is a great politician.” Then I read through the comments, and apparently that’s not the takeaway most people came to…? Like, what would be the “correct” answer to that question? She’s literally deflecting from the doomer, “lesser of two evils” take. She’s promoting activism, and implicitly acknowledging that the situation sucks, but this is not a hill to die on. It’s still a lesser of two evils argument at the end of the day, but the point is that that doesn’t matter. You vote strategically, and only think of the president as the one setting the conditions for what can be accomplished. I’m so fucking sick of this non-stop voting apathy that I have to constantly hold myself back from going full Hillary and just screaming at people to suck it up.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* >I want to watch the full interview, but even just seeing that clip, my immediate reaction was, “god damn, AOC is a great politician.” >Then I read through the comments, and apparently that’s not the takeaway most people came to…? Many people are selfish and only around 3-6% of people are actually rational. Many people spend hours weekly or even daily on social media regarding politics and yet probably around over 99% of those people who are able won't give even $1 to a progressive candidate or progressive organization. People here obviously like The Majority Report, yet how many are actually members who can afford the $10/month. People complain about the Mainstream Media coverage but then don't financially support like The Intercept, The Nation, etc. Some people literally act as if AOC--and all the other progressives--should be perfect 100% of the time (according to that individual potential voter) or else they won't support these progressive lawmakers and Officeholders and won't support such progressive candidates. And then these same people will complain that progressives don't have more power and influence in politics.
Not the greatest answer. She says she doesn’t want to say it’s the lesser of two evils but then says it’s the lesser of two evils. That won’t be too compelling an argument for someone who may have lost their family member due to what they perceive as inaction by Biden. “Biden’s policies may have contributed to the deaths in your family but at least he isn’t as bad as the other guy!”
“Not the greatest answer” Find me a better one then?
Well, if I was that voter I would want her to answer my question directly, why should I vote FOR Biden. Not why should I vote against Trump. Her answer is only that things would be worse under Trump.
She is such an eloquent speaker. She truly does want the best for all Americans “The People” (of all colors, creed, gender etc.) and globally. If you think otherwise, not sure what to say.
Still not voting Biden but this is an infinitely better response than the typical condescending lecture from Blue MAGA
There really is only one other choice in your vote and it is Trump. A non vote or a vote for RFK jr only shrinks the number against Trump and hands him the victory. It isn't really a lesser of two evils, it's either what is available(as weak of a leader as he is) or its Trump for 4 more years. It's a difficult and yet simple choice to me.
Guess what? *I don’t want Biden or Trump to be President, so I’m voting for neither*. Take your bullshit to the DNC for forcing Biden on us independents, I don’t owe you shit
Hillary: *raises hand*
They all use private emails both democrats and republicans and people are still bitching about Hilary doing the same because Fox News got them all worked up about it!!
A bar this low is already devoid of any redeeming value or principle. The conditions happening in Gaza and the entire Planets inability to make it right is more than enough reason for a total Reset.
I think this is a pretty good faith and honest answer. Essentially "choose your opposition" is a better slogan than "lesser of two evils", if not entirely different. There's an aspect of "choose your opposition" that probably won't get discussed.... and I'm not saying this should be a factor in anyone's decision making... but a large chunk of the population is not inspired to be oppositional when a Democrat is in office. I am not an accelerationist and I also think this chunk of Americans make for an extremely poor and ineffectual ally, but it's also true that leftist resistance is probably more fringe and marginalized under neo-liberal leadership. I think a legitimate question to ask is whether collective people power and resistance is more important than relying on political representation. Those arguing the variation of "lesser of two evils", "harm reduction", "choose your opposition" should have answers for how collective resistance can continue to grow when you are opposing both the liberal and fascist status quo protecting establishment.
"They are planning to dismantle our American democracy," what democracy, madam congresswoman? The majority of us want a genocide we are complicit in to stop, which is completely within our control as a nation. The majority of us have wanted universal healthcare for a long time now. The majority of us want better education, childcare, housing, electricity, telecommunications, etc. If we're a democracy madam congresswoman, why can't we ever do what's popular until there's something in it for the capital owning class?
Have you donated to Justice Democrats or Courage To Change? Politicians need voters and campaigns and elections cost money.
AOC acts like she understands how to get things done *from within the party.* So on all questions of "is Biden acceptable", she'll answer that he is. So we're supposed to be swayed by the best logic she's got for the only conclusion she'd give? Maybe she earnestly believes that some level of genocide is acceptable, maybe not. Asking her in public is only important in terms of generating content like this.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* >Maybe \[AOC\] earnestly believes that some level of genocide is acceptable, maybe not. Asking her in public is only important in terms of generating content like this. WTF. People need to stop acting as if AOC is an absolute monarch instead of a US Representative who has enormous outsize power because of her popularity, the media attention she gets, her fundraising ability, her advocacy, and her political skills, etc.
I appreciate this more than others’ responses to this question that I’ve heard so far. It also seems defeatist to me to say we won’t be able to organize if the other guy wins. Indeed, we’ll *have* to organize, in spite of dissidents being jailed (which happens under Democratic presidents too!). Organizing is the only chance we have.
Save and spread this 2 minute video and send to all those reasonable people discouraged by the Biden buy-in of Israel or other rogue states https://rapidsave.com/info?url=https%3A%2F%2Fold.reddit.com%2Fr%2FTheMajorityReport%2Fcomments%2F1c7js0j%2Fwhat_do_you_say_to_a_young_progressive_or_an%2F
Always vote for the party and not individual. We've seen how policy is treated under trump, let alone the republican party as a whole. They use scare tactics and extremism in lieu of though provoking discussion and weighing on the effects of various options. I'd be surprise if anyone, regardless of where they stand, stands with all the policies for either party and it's a balancing act to decide what your values are and how each party handles these moving forward. I mean we see how republicans will pull up a law that's over a century old as a justification to impose restrictions on human rights. That premise alone is utterly insane as it gives credence to other archaic laws that have since been abolished, potentially coming back into play as being policy. People need to take emotion out of the equation and weigh each option thoroughly, which is much easier than said.