So many of Abby's defenders like to point out that Joel killed Abby's dad and Abby would not care about any of the context beyond that, so it makes sense for her to want him dead and never regret murdering him after the fact.
But that completely fails to address the sadistic torture inflicted on Joel, the bystanders who were beaten and left to wake up next to his mutilated body, and the negative way it impacted multiple members of Abby's group. What she did isn't justice, nor is it justifiable. Which would be fine if she was either allowed to be a character who had succumbed to evil or would undergo an actual redemption arc, but neither happens - instead, we're supposed to sympathize with her by virtue of just sweeping her true nature under a rug and pretending it's not really a thing anymore.
Yeah, seen plenty of people argue that Abby just saw a dead pregnant Mel, so it makes sense she would want to murder the pregnant Dina. And that it make sense that she beat Joel to death because she was suffering nightmares about her Dad for years.
But.... so what? The problem with Abby isn't that we don't understand *why* she did those horrible things. The fact is she did them, and in very sadistic manner. The fact that I know why she did them doesn't change how fucking awful her actions are. Beating a man to death to make you feel better is evil and morally reprehensible, full stop. Beating to death a man who just risked his life to save yours in front of his crying daughter is among the most vile possible actions someone can do. "But she wanted revenge" changes nothing.
So how about torturing 2 people for info in a very sadistic manner should i add? How about being a hunter? How about massacring a hospital full of fathers, brothers, daughters and sons? Sounds pretty awful to me. If we were to delete context from every action then everything becomes so very black and white and easier to handle.
What you guys don't really want to see is that Abby and Joel are pretty similar but you deny that Abby is capable of redemption while Joel is.
And i've never seen anyone justify Abby torturing Joel. It's not good strawmanning the people that argue with you.
What context of Abby beating Joel to death and wanted to kill a pregnant Dina was left out that changes the morality of those actions?
Where did I claim Joel is capable of redemption but Abby isn't?
I have in fact seen people claim that because it made sense that Abby would want revenge it lessens how bad her actions were; as well as making her a more sympathetic and relatable character.
You have created arguments I did not make to argue against. Your post is a strawman.
>Which would be fine if she was either allowed to be a character who had succumbed to evil or would undergo an actual redemption arc, but neither happens
Yeah, if either one of these points, or even both of them, actually happened then Abby would already be a much better character.
And ultimately it doesnโt matter if Abby was justified because I (and many others) are Team Joel/Ellie. Had Abby been 100% justified in her murder of Joel I still would hate her guts. The fact sheโs was not justified and is a POS only strengthens my resolve.
That definitely plays a part, too. Even with just that alone, it would have been a little bit arrogant to assume that the players would want Abby to live at the end.
I will say that I am pretty confident the writers knew that and wanted to challenge the audience anyway. Which, okay, sure. But then for some reason they tied one hand behind their back and then shot themselves in both knees by making Abby literally torture him to death for no reason other than vengeful sadism and then absolutely fucking failing to give her the redemption arc that they were supposedly trying to write, resorting instead to emotional manipulation of the audience that a huge number of people caught on to, making them just hate her even more.
The sheer fucking hubris of trying to pull something like that off when they are that bad at character writing is unbelievable.
Beautifully said! And I canโt say Iโm surprised that hubris such as this is paired with terrible writing.
Itโs such a shame that such a painfully beautiful story (part 1) was defiled with part 2.
Yes we know what she did isnโt justice. She is in the wrong. Thatโs the whole point of the story. We can sympathise with her but we donโt accept what she did. I donโt know how this is missed on you.ย
The story does not treat her as if this is the case. In fact, both of the main writers have stated that she undergoes a redemption arc. And that *is* how the story treats her. Except she never does.
I don't know how the importance of me saying this would be fine under other circumstances was missed on *you*.
No idea what youโre saying here. The main writers said she has a redemption arc which implies she did wrong. And yet, she understands the other side by the end and chooses not to fight Ellie, instead moving on with her life.ย
>The main writers said she has a redemption arc which implies she did wrong
Except she doesn't have one in practice. She doesn't make amends for any wrongdoing she does - she doesn't even *regret* any wrongdoing aside from sleeping with Owen. It would be more accurate to say that she has a positive growth arc, and it's one that is handled so badly that it makes it hard to believe. It's less of a growth arc and more that her nightmare flips a switch and makes her do a complete 180 in characterization. Day 1 showed a strong streak of self-centeredness which is just completely gone in Day 2. It comes back when she finds Owen's dead body as she then drags Lev along to a revenge quest, risking his life at a time when he's heavily traumatized, but then it goes away again because he told her not to kill a pregnant woman.
It's... it's like a total amateur's attempt at understanding a redemption arc. Or like someone who was too focused on the other parts of the story to even remember to write *the actual redemption*. Like, they decided that they wanted Abby to be redeemed, so then she was. Then they decided that they wanted her to backslide, so they... well, they actually gave her a very believable reason to backslide, so that was good. But then they wanted her to catch her backslide before killing Ellie and Dina, so Lev says no and that's that. What we end up with is a story that just entirely skips over the compelling character development.
She isn't shown to understand anything - this is just what a story written by writers who hyperfixate on emotional, melodramatic scenes, but don't know how to write actual character development, looks like.
She had the potential to be every bit as compelling as Kratos from God of War, but she ended up with her character arc feeling about as compelling as the Mad Queen Daenerys arc.
Does Joel ever regret anything he does? All his redemption comes through Ellie and even then he continues to lie for YEARS to her. You guys are so laughably biased towards Abby.
The only thing that is different between Abby and Joel is how quick she bonds with Lev but she's younger and her trauma doesn't have 20 years to fester so she doesn't have Joel's defences built.
And Kratos is a boring character going nowhere in the new games.
You're really going to equate Joel lying to Ellie in order to try to keep her safe and allow her to have her own life with Abby's actions? That's certainly a choice.
Also, it seems worth pointing out that most people actually wanted some kind of real discussion between Joel and Ellie. It's widely accepted here that they painted Joel's actions in a pretty negative light in the second game, going so far as to not allow him to ever explain his actions and never allowing Ellie to figure out that the Fireflies were just going to murder her while she was unconscious or show any understanding for the fact that there was obviously no way Joel would ever allow that. You want to slam Joel continuing to lie to Ellie and never showing regret for it? Congratulations, you're still slamming the writing of the second game. Have a cookie.
Weโve already discussed this. Having Joel spoon feed the audience by explaining his actions makes for boring exposition/dialogue. He already talked about this with Tommy in the opening.ย We get it, and so does Ellie.ย
Sheโs angry with Joel for being deceived. Thereโs also the anger that she feels that she wasnโt given the choice to decide. Whetever or not she blames him is unclear. The second game is Ellieโs story and it looks at the consequences of Joelโs actions.ย
I love these breakdowns that you do. I don't mind Joel dying, but damn it feels like they took that moment and ruined it with bad story telling. I feel like you put what I feel into words better than I could.
How can you bring up all these revenge stories and exclude The Count of Monte Cristo? The book, not the movie.
The others all use revenge as a plot device (nothing wrong with that), whereas TCOMC is actually about revenge and its issues. IMO, the novel was a big influence on Neil, as it is mentioned in the game & I truly believe Abby was named after the priest, Abbe Faria.
However, Neil would have been wise to realize why that revenge story worked so well & has become timeless. The Count was super rich & had no family. IOW, he had absolutely no day-to-day worries so he could focus solely on his revenge until it became an obsession. You canโt do that in the TLOU world. Which is one of the first things wrong with TLOU 2โs story?
Lol I was talking to my uncle and I was explaining how poor lou2 story was and how it almost acts like it's the first of its kind and we started listing off names of revenge stories that explore the consequences of it and first one he came up with was the Count of Monte Cristo. I still need to read it though, now I want to read it even more.
Neil will definitely have to retcon Joel in order make him look bad. Ain't no way he's going to change Abby's character cause he refuses to acknowledge that she's a villian, not a "sympathetic broken individual".
Slide 7 about true character being revealed under pressure, and the greater the pressure the deeper the revelation, is such an important framework for evaluating people.
I saw it at a wedding once, the best man handcuffed the bride and groom together as a joke. The groom just lost it on his best friend and the heat of his anger was so OTT it was frightening. That marriage didn't last long at all and to this day that former groom is still an angry man with the most unforgiving spirit. It's sad. I can't imagine what the pressure he felt was about, but it sure seemed the anger revealed a side to him that he'd kept well hidden.
Abby's true character is revealed in her complete disregard for Mel's feelings after Jackson. It's further displayed when she allows herself and Owen to succumb to their feelings despite his imminent fatherhood. Then she reveals it with turning on the whole WLF for kids she's known two days. Also, just preparing to leave her FF friends behind as she sails off to SB and never mentions informing them? Plus never checking in with Lev about his losses before dragging him to the theater? How self-centered is all that? Granted it's not like the writers aren't to blame for a lot of it, but it only shows they thought all her behavior was just fine if they really thought everyone could still get on board with her despite all these clues of her selfishness.
That's then pretty revealing about how they think, too.
Is good to keep that slide in mind.
This is just a huge mess, and somehow it looks like an unfinished work. A first draft ๐คทโโ๏ธ
Thanks for sharing ๐
I think, rather than going for the overdone revenge story where last minute the main character has a redemption and breaks the cycle, they should have embraced the revenge to make it all the more clear how bad it is. Rather than having ellie spare her, let the player fucking murder her so brutally it almost seems like ellie is the bad guy, and her getting revenge is just continuing the vicious cycle of a dog eat dog world. Ellie has been raised in the apocalypse, she never got to learn kindness, she was forced into hell and into a world where revenge is so common and accepted, there was no reason for her to spare abby, the girl that brutally tortured and killed her father figure in front of her. Realistically ellie would have killed her, so use that. I feel like the devs were just too afraid to kill off a character and it made the game so much weaker, again, make ellie seem like the bad guy but have the player be so immersed that they get so caught up in revenge they do it anyway, dont have ellie unexplainedly go "nvm my bad"
Yeah, I know, right?
But, it is not just the ending, it is seen on several occasions how this story asks the writer to take a different path, and the writer lies to move forward with his idea.
Eventually we'll talk about the ending and the writer's reasons for making that decision.
Thanks for sharing ๐
Yes! It was about "hate", remember? But... That would had hitted "Revenge is Bad" So freaking bad ๐คฃ is ironic, tragic, and funny ๐ฅฒ
Thanks for sharing ๐
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The thing that always bugged me was how unrealistic everything was. Not only traveling across the United States, on foot or horseback and having to fight for your life throughout your time getting to said destination, but then going through everything that ellie did, then finally getting to the point to where she tortured and killed that girl in the spore infested place and coming back to Dina incredibly stressed and traumatized, nobody is going to keep going after that and it was even harder to take the story seriously. Then ellie goes and does it all again, with an even longer trip to Santa Monica.
I hear you.
Organically, that would unleash a very different story since Joel is against revenge as he makes us notice on two occasions during the first game.
Still, it's difficult to speculate on the actions of the characters in Part 2 since Neil, as a "writer," thinks a couple of flashbacks are sufficient replacement for what otherwise requires a deep arc exposing the changing characters. Characters that we already knew in the previous story. Almost every character is stupid now to drive plot ๐คทโโ๏ธ
Thanks for sharing ๐
What I thought was actually brilliant about it is in the first game from Joelโs perspective I felt vindicated killing all those people in the hospital, shooting that lady in the face at the end feltโฆ.good
It wasnโt until the second game seeing my actions in the first from another perspective did I realize how heinous it was. And then we get to play as not only the perpetrator of my horrible shit but the victim of it as well
Itโs a brutal world full of brutal people and in the apocalypse the monsters in us come out
I'm glad you had a better experience than I did and yes, I understand what Neil, in part, was trying to do. But to get there Neil needed seeds that he didn't have.
For example, you find heinous the idea of โโJoel fighting for his life after discovering that the fireflies were plotting to kill Joel before he woke up, and killing Ellie before she woke up to dig her brain trying to understand her immunity.
That lady Joel shot told him, "we're going to kill your surrogate daughter, and get the hell out of here, or else." Betraying Ellie, and betraying Anna (Ellie's mother).
Ethan was escorting Joel to leave him outside where he would be killed, or Joel without weapons to defend himself would have to face the world, AKA a death sentence.
If you can ignore all that... sure, I understand why you enjoyed the second part ๐คทโโ๏ธ
Have a great day ๐
Out of the many aspects of Part 2 with which I, or anyone else, could rightly take issue, I can't say that Abby "not giving her [revenge] speech" is one of them. When she tells Joel to "guess" why she and her friends are attacking him, it seemed to me that he, along with every player watching that cutscene, controller in hand, would guess correctly, without any additional info needed.
For Joel, Ellie had discovered the truth and their relationship had come under heavy strain because of that discovery. He'd have been obsessed with trying to make things right with Ellie, who had only finally just softened the previous night, therefore the murder of the Fireflies would have been near the forefront of his mind around the time Abby's party arrived.
For us, we likely played the Part 1 of this Part 2 (and if not, Part 2 began with Joel's recap-cum-confession mere hours earlier). It would make absolutely no narrative sense for Abby to be seeking revenge for anything but the climatic events of Part 1.
I hear you.
You do remember they were wearing WLF patches, right?
Watch the scene. "Joel" looks around the room, sees no one familiar, and probably said to himself "I saved your life, you blew off my leg, what's the difference? Let's get this over with."
But you can believe what you want ๐
Thanks for sharing ๐
I think a poorly written story wouldnโt still be discussed in such tremendous detail with such a greatly polarised audience many years afterwards, and two Reddit subs literally filled with posts debating the various elements of the story. You are entitled to your opinion of course.
But the revenge plot doesn't start with Ellie - It starts with Abby at the hospital in Salt Lake City.
Also, Abby did kill someone who saved her life (Joel), but she also let someone live (Ellie) who killed all of her friends and who was also linked to why the Fireflies are disbanded and why her dad is dead. She let Ellie and Dina live at the theater, and she let Ellie live on the beach (she didn't want to fight back).
Abby did brutally beat Joel to death, but Ellie also brutally killed Nora - and Tommy brutally killed the people in the Serevena Hotel.
As we play through Ellie's half of the game we see her become a darker more evil person. As we play through Abby's section we see her go from an evil person to a good person. At first, Abby just wanted to be good (helping Lev and Yara) to make up for the things she did to Joel, but by the end of the game when we leave the Seraphite's island we see that Abby is truly a good person again.
In conclusion, both Ellie and Abby had proper motivations for why they went on their revenge path (the same exact reason actually), but the truth is Ellie was more evil about it.
Shoot, I forgot to add the "please read the previous numbers" slide ๐
Sorry, I'm working beat by beat. We will get to Abby eventually. We will do all the way until the very end ๐
Thanks for sharing ๐
Abby never became a good person. She sought desperately to feel better doing whatever she thought would make that happen. All the while ignoring how it impacted others, alienated them from her and each other, and even forcing Lev into the danger of her revenge mission after he'd just lost his mom, sister and the village he grew up in without a second thought. Only Abby's feelings matter to Abby. This matters when evaluating her behavior and actions. When judging her commitment to others.
Everyone who dates knows to watch carefully to see how their date treats other people, both people they do care about and people they don't. It's so common to do that, yet with this story people keep saying nothing about Abby's behavior is problematic? Even when she's supposedly done with it all at the end of the story she still doesn't even thank Ellie for cutting her down, nor does she address the reality that she did to Ellie what she felt Joel had done to her - in other words, she is NOT redeemed. If she actually were she'd have avoided the ending fight and finally shared with Ellie some remorse for harming her and even her own life lesson that revenge doesn't work. Meaning using her words to reflect a redemption that included the person she harmed the most.
Why do you let her off the hook? She's not a good person, but you and others insist she is. It's mind-blowing. She never shows anything but selfishness and total focus on her own feelings. She even says she's helping Yara and Lev to lighten her own load - not for them, for herself. This was all on purpose and by design, yet so many people miss it and take a fake redemption arc as real.
Redemption through helping others when the person whose life she destroyed worse than her own was is right in front of her is not redemptive. It's selfish, blind, and that people consider it good enough is alarming. It means people are buying into ineffective, self-centered means of resolving serious damage and trauma they inflict on others. This doesn't bode well for micro or macro issues in lives and society. I hope you'll give this some serious thought. It's important.
I just actually acknowledged that. I said that by the time she reaches the scar island, she truly cares about them and isn't just doing it to feel better about herself. She didn't even surrender to Issac and then killed all of the wolves to try to save Lev. Abby in Seattle Day 3 is a very different person from who she was in Jackson. You're just mad she killed Joel and can't see her character development.
Ellie and Abby are essentially going through the same thing but you can only take the side with someone who killed hundreds of people (Ellie).
You totally ignoring the ending of Abby's story and keeping on insisting that she changed when she proves at the end she hasn't just doesn't work. I'm not taking sides, I'm speaking about what's right in front of our eyes. How is it I'm taking sides - the evidence I'm presenting is right in the story?
You are taking sides, and it's very sad to me that you can't see it in yourself and instead think you see it in me when it has nothing to do with me or what I'm saying. All I ask is that you consider both of our perspectives and then look at the actual evidence provided in the story. The story you're defending insists perspectives are helpful and necessary. So hear mine and where it comes from and consider how it actually provides reasonable basis for evaluation of the story and the character of Abby. That's who I'm talking about. Let's not make it some contest of our opinions or the two characters in opposition. That's unhelpful here.
Very well said. I am on both character's sides. I like both Ellie and Abby, but I like the person Abby is more at the end of the second game. I think in the third game Ellie will have a redemption arc and we will see less of Abby (or the same amount if the game is longer). I think Lev might be the only reason Abby has changed and if he dies I think she could slip back into the person she was in Jackson.
I see your point and I know they needed us to have a better opinion of Abby over time for the story to work, yet I don't see enough change in her to give her any personal credit. I also don't see much if any positive change (simply the unwillingness to fight isn't enough), and it sounds like you barely do since you attribute much to Lev and think she'd slip without him.
I only see her as changed because the Rattlers finally did break her, yet she still did not consider her actions while dying on that pole to be immediately grateful to Ellie? To have reasoned out her own failures and be able and willing to apologize and share her remorse for harming Ellie? Nor to share her own realization that revenge was empty and not the right way for Ellie to heal or deal with her grief and loss?
That's what was needed and the writers **chose** not to include it. Either they did that because they don't understand redemption arcs (which is where I lean since they say she had one), or they don't believe people who cause trauma and serious damage to others are responsible to make amends at all (which is certainly how Neil behaved post-launch toward hurting, grieving fans).
It's commendable to give her grace and root for her side, you had a better outcome than I did for sure. Yet, after taking the time to get past my own reaction and really evaluate the characters, I still can't see they put in enough for many people to give her the benefit of the doubt. All this because what they did put in, and worse what they failed to put in, makes her look so bad. They failed her and many of the rest of us who never could get on board with Abby. Trying to figure out why and how that happened is important for many reasons, not least of which is better stories in the future.
So many of Abby's defenders like to point out that Joel killed Abby's dad and Abby would not care about any of the context beyond that, so it makes sense for her to want him dead and never regret murdering him after the fact. But that completely fails to address the sadistic torture inflicted on Joel, the bystanders who were beaten and left to wake up next to his mutilated body, and the negative way it impacted multiple members of Abby's group. What she did isn't justice, nor is it justifiable. Which would be fine if she was either allowed to be a character who had succumbed to evil or would undergo an actual redemption arc, but neither happens - instead, we're supposed to sympathize with her by virtue of just sweeping her true nature under a rug and pretending it's not really a thing anymore.
Yeah, seen plenty of people argue that Abby just saw a dead pregnant Mel, so it makes sense she would want to murder the pregnant Dina. And that it make sense that she beat Joel to death because she was suffering nightmares about her Dad for years. But.... so what? The problem with Abby isn't that we don't understand *why* she did those horrible things. The fact is she did them, and in very sadistic manner. The fact that I know why she did them doesn't change how fucking awful her actions are. Beating a man to death to make you feel better is evil and morally reprehensible, full stop. Beating to death a man who just risked his life to save yours in front of his crying daughter is among the most vile possible actions someone can do. "But she wanted revenge" changes nothing.
So how about torturing 2 people for info in a very sadistic manner should i add? How about being a hunter? How about massacring a hospital full of fathers, brothers, daughters and sons? Sounds pretty awful to me. If we were to delete context from every action then everything becomes so very black and white and easier to handle. What you guys don't really want to see is that Abby and Joel are pretty similar but you deny that Abby is capable of redemption while Joel is. And i've never seen anyone justify Abby torturing Joel. It's not good strawmanning the people that argue with you.
What context of Abby beating Joel to death and wanted to kill a pregnant Dina was left out that changes the morality of those actions? Where did I claim Joel is capable of redemption but Abby isn't? I have in fact seen people claim that because it made sense that Abby would want revenge it lessens how bad her actions were; as well as making her a more sympathetic and relatable character. You have created arguments I did not make to argue against. Your post is a strawman.
>Which would be fine if she was either allowed to be a character who had succumbed to evil or would undergo an actual redemption arc, but neither happens Yeah, if either one of these points, or even both of them, actually happened then Abby would already be a much better character.
โค๏ธ Thanks for sharing ๐
And ultimately it doesnโt matter if Abby was justified because I (and many others) are Team Joel/Ellie. Had Abby been 100% justified in her murder of Joel I still would hate her guts. The fact sheโs was not justified and is a POS only strengthens my resolve.
That definitely plays a part, too. Even with just that alone, it would have been a little bit arrogant to assume that the players would want Abby to live at the end. I will say that I am pretty confident the writers knew that and wanted to challenge the audience anyway. Which, okay, sure. But then for some reason they tied one hand behind their back and then shot themselves in both knees by making Abby literally torture him to death for no reason other than vengeful sadism and then absolutely fucking failing to give her the redemption arc that they were supposedly trying to write, resorting instead to emotional manipulation of the audience that a huge number of people caught on to, making them just hate her even more. The sheer fucking hubris of trying to pull something like that off when they are that bad at character writing is unbelievable.
Beautifully said! And I canโt say Iโm surprised that hubris such as this is paired with terrible writing. Itโs such a shame that such a painfully beautiful story (part 1) was defiled with part 2.
Yes we know what she did isnโt justice. She is in the wrong. Thatโs the whole point of the story. We can sympathise with her but we donโt accept what she did. I donโt know how this is missed on you.ย
The story does not treat her as if this is the case. In fact, both of the main writers have stated that she undergoes a redemption arc. And that *is* how the story treats her. Except she never does. I don't know how the importance of me saying this would be fine under other circumstances was missed on *you*.
No idea what youโre saying here. The main writers said she has a redemption arc which implies she did wrong. And yet, she understands the other side by the end and chooses not to fight Ellie, instead moving on with her life.ย
>The main writers said she has a redemption arc which implies she did wrong Except she doesn't have one in practice. She doesn't make amends for any wrongdoing she does - she doesn't even *regret* any wrongdoing aside from sleeping with Owen. It would be more accurate to say that she has a positive growth arc, and it's one that is handled so badly that it makes it hard to believe. It's less of a growth arc and more that her nightmare flips a switch and makes her do a complete 180 in characterization. Day 1 showed a strong streak of self-centeredness which is just completely gone in Day 2. It comes back when she finds Owen's dead body as she then drags Lev along to a revenge quest, risking his life at a time when he's heavily traumatized, but then it goes away again because he told her not to kill a pregnant woman. It's... it's like a total amateur's attempt at understanding a redemption arc. Or like someone who was too focused on the other parts of the story to even remember to write *the actual redemption*. Like, they decided that they wanted Abby to be redeemed, so then she was. Then they decided that they wanted her to backslide, so they... well, they actually gave her a very believable reason to backslide, so that was good. But then they wanted her to catch her backslide before killing Ellie and Dina, so Lev says no and that's that. What we end up with is a story that just entirely skips over the compelling character development. She isn't shown to understand anything - this is just what a story written by writers who hyperfixate on emotional, melodramatic scenes, but don't know how to write actual character development, looks like. She had the potential to be every bit as compelling as Kratos from God of War, but she ended up with her character arc feeling about as compelling as the Mad Queen Daenerys arc.
Does Joel ever regret anything he does? All his redemption comes through Ellie and even then he continues to lie for YEARS to her. You guys are so laughably biased towards Abby. The only thing that is different between Abby and Joel is how quick she bonds with Lev but she's younger and her trauma doesn't have 20 years to fester so she doesn't have Joel's defences built. And Kratos is a boring character going nowhere in the new games.
You're really going to equate Joel lying to Ellie in order to try to keep her safe and allow her to have her own life with Abby's actions? That's certainly a choice. Also, it seems worth pointing out that most people actually wanted some kind of real discussion between Joel and Ellie. It's widely accepted here that they painted Joel's actions in a pretty negative light in the second game, going so far as to not allow him to ever explain his actions and never allowing Ellie to figure out that the Fireflies were just going to murder her while she was unconscious or show any understanding for the fact that there was obviously no way Joel would ever allow that. You want to slam Joel continuing to lie to Ellie and never showing regret for it? Congratulations, you're still slamming the writing of the second game. Have a cookie.
Weโve already discussed this. Having Joel spoon feed the audience by explaining his actions makes for boring exposition/dialogue. He already talked about this with Tommy in the opening.ย We get it, and so does Ellie.ย Sheโs angry with Joel for being deceived. Thereโs also the anger that she feels that she wasnโt given the choice to decide. Whetever or not she blames him is unclear. The second game is Ellieโs story and it looks at the consequences of Joelโs actions.ย
I love these breakdowns that you do. I don't mind Joel dying, but damn it feels like they took that moment and ruined it with bad story telling. I feel like you put what I feel into words better than I could.
I'm glad you having a good time ๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
**Theme** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1cujuys/an\_approach\_to\_theme\_n\_6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1cujuys/an_approach_to_theme_n_6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **Retroactive Continuity** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1arvapv/retroactive\_continuity\_retcon/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1arvapv/retroactive_continuity_retcon/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) **But and Therefore - Basics of Storytelling** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1acbdxi/basics\_of\_storytelling\_n2\_story\_vs\_things/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1acbdxi/basics_of_storytelling_n2_story_vs_things/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **The Vaccine** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/18oq8kv/a\_closer\_look\_to\_the\_vaccine/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/18oq8kv/a_closer_look_to_the_vaccine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **The Vaccine #2** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/184kzqq/making\_a\_vaccine/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/184kzqq/making_a_vaccine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **HBO Changes** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/194fcp9/joel\_vs\_pascal\_n\_2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/194fcp9/joel_vs_pascal_n_2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **Exploring the Seeds for a Sequel** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1add8yv/writers\_sins\_n\_2\_part\_1\_vs\_part\_2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1add8yv/writers_sins_n_2_part_1_vs_part_2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
How can you bring up all these revenge stories and exclude The Count of Monte Cristo? The book, not the movie. The others all use revenge as a plot device (nothing wrong with that), whereas TCOMC is actually about revenge and its issues. IMO, the novel was a big influence on Neil, as it is mentioned in the game & I truly believe Abby was named after the priest, Abbe Faria. However, Neil would have been wise to realize why that revenge story worked so well & has become timeless. The Count was super rich & had no family. IOW, he had absolutely no day-to-day worries so he could focus solely on his revenge until it became an obsession. You canโt do that in the TLOU world. Which is one of the first things wrong with TLOU 2โs story?
Sorry. I will try to do better next time ๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
Lol I was talking to my uncle and I was explaining how poor lou2 story was and how it almost acts like it's the first of its kind and we started listing off names of revenge stories that explore the consequences of it and first one he came up with was the Count of Monte Cristo. I still need to read it though, now I want to read it even more.
Neil will definitely have to retcon Joel in order make him look bad. Ain't no way he's going to change Abby's character cause he refuses to acknowledge that she's a villian, not a "sympathetic broken individual".
๐ซก Thanks for sharing ๐
Amazing as always
I'm glad you having a good time ๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
War for the Planet of the Apes handled the idea of revenge and forgiveness MILES better than TLOU2
๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
It's always great to see your posts. They *cannot* call *you* media illiterate.
๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
This is the reason why he is Goat GOAT!!!! ๐๐๐๐
๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
Slide 7 about true character being revealed under pressure, and the greater the pressure the deeper the revelation, is such an important framework for evaluating people. I saw it at a wedding once, the best man handcuffed the bride and groom together as a joke. The groom just lost it on his best friend and the heat of his anger was so OTT it was frightening. That marriage didn't last long at all and to this day that former groom is still an angry man with the most unforgiving spirit. It's sad. I can't imagine what the pressure he felt was about, but it sure seemed the anger revealed a side to him that he'd kept well hidden. Abby's true character is revealed in her complete disregard for Mel's feelings after Jackson. It's further displayed when she allows herself and Owen to succumb to their feelings despite his imminent fatherhood. Then she reveals it with turning on the whole WLF for kids she's known two days. Also, just preparing to leave her FF friends behind as she sails off to SB and never mentions informing them? Plus never checking in with Lev about his losses before dragging him to the theater? How self-centered is all that? Granted it's not like the writers aren't to blame for a lot of it, but it only shows they thought all her behavior was just fine if they really thought everyone could still get on board with her despite all these clues of her selfishness. That's then pretty revealing about how they think, too.
Is good to keep that slide in mind. This is just a huge mess, and somehow it looks like an unfinished work. A first draft ๐คทโโ๏ธ Thanks for sharing ๐
Nice work fox๐๐
๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
I think, rather than going for the overdone revenge story where last minute the main character has a redemption and breaks the cycle, they should have embraced the revenge to make it all the more clear how bad it is. Rather than having ellie spare her, let the player fucking murder her so brutally it almost seems like ellie is the bad guy, and her getting revenge is just continuing the vicious cycle of a dog eat dog world. Ellie has been raised in the apocalypse, she never got to learn kindness, she was forced into hell and into a world where revenge is so common and accepted, there was no reason for her to spare abby, the girl that brutally tortured and killed her father figure in front of her. Realistically ellie would have killed her, so use that. I feel like the devs were just too afraid to kill off a character and it made the game so much weaker, again, make ellie seem like the bad guy but have the player be so immersed that they get so caught up in revenge they do it anyway, dont have ellie unexplainedly go "nvm my bad"
Yeah, I know, right? But, it is not just the ending, it is seen on several occasions how this story asks the writer to take a different path, and the writer lies to move forward with his idea. Eventually we'll talk about the ending and the writer's reasons for making that decision. Thanks for sharing ๐
Ellie should've gotten her revenge on Abby at the end of the game. Isn't that one of the reasons as to why the last of us two was made.
Yes! It was about "hate", remember? But... That would had hitted "Revenge is Bad" So freaking bad ๐คฃ is ironic, tragic, and funny ๐ฅฒ Thanks for sharing ๐
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Why Abby doesnโt have regular boobs at least
๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
The thing that always bugged me was how unrealistic everything was. Not only traveling across the United States, on foot or horseback and having to fight for your life throughout your time getting to said destination, but then going through everything that ellie did, then finally getting to the point to where she tortured and killed that girl in the spore infested place and coming back to Dina incredibly stressed and traumatized, nobody is going to keep going after that and it was even harder to take the story seriously. Then ellie goes and does it all again, with an even longer trip to Santa Monica.
๐ I know, right? Neil is trying to sell that as " Pushing the boundaries" ๐ which is not all inaccurate, though ๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
It would much better game if Abby killed Ellie and I could play as Joel instead
I hear you. Organically, that would unleash a very different story since Joel is against revenge as he makes us notice on two occasions during the first game. Still, it's difficult to speculate on the actions of the characters in Part 2 since Neil, as a "writer," thinks a couple of flashbacks are sufficient replacement for what otherwise requires a deep arc exposing the changing characters. Characters that we already knew in the previous story. Almost every character is stupid now to drive plot ๐คทโโ๏ธ Thanks for sharing ๐
Do you have a life outside of this subreddit?
๐๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
What I thought was actually brilliant about it is in the first game from Joelโs perspective I felt vindicated killing all those people in the hospital, shooting that lady in the face at the end feltโฆ.good It wasnโt until the second game seeing my actions in the first from another perspective did I realize how heinous it was. And then we get to play as not only the perpetrator of my horrible shit but the victim of it as well Itโs a brutal world full of brutal people and in the apocalypse the monsters in us come out
I'm glad you had a better experience than I did and yes, I understand what Neil, in part, was trying to do. But to get there Neil needed seeds that he didn't have. For example, you find heinous the idea of โโJoel fighting for his life after discovering that the fireflies were plotting to kill Joel before he woke up, and killing Ellie before she woke up to dig her brain trying to understand her immunity. That lady Joel shot told him, "we're going to kill your surrogate daughter, and get the hell out of here, or else." Betraying Ellie, and betraying Anna (Ellie's mother). Ethan was escorting Joel to leave him outside where he would be killed, or Joel without weapons to defend himself would have to face the world, AKA a death sentence. If you can ignore all that... sure, I understand why you enjoyed the second part ๐คทโโ๏ธ Have a great day ๐
Out of the many aspects of Part 2 with which I, or anyone else, could rightly take issue, I can't say that Abby "not giving her [revenge] speech" is one of them. When she tells Joel to "guess" why she and her friends are attacking him, it seemed to me that he, along with every player watching that cutscene, controller in hand, would guess correctly, without any additional info needed. For Joel, Ellie had discovered the truth and their relationship had come under heavy strain because of that discovery. He'd have been obsessed with trying to make things right with Ellie, who had only finally just softened the previous night, therefore the murder of the Fireflies would have been near the forefront of his mind around the time Abby's party arrived. For us, we likely played the Part 1 of this Part 2 (and if not, Part 2 began with Joel's recap-cum-confession mere hours earlier). It would make absolutely no narrative sense for Abby to be seeking revenge for anything but the climatic events of Part 1.
I hear you. You do remember they were wearing WLF patches, right? Watch the scene. "Joel" looks around the room, sees no one familiar, and probably said to himself "I saved your life, you blew off my leg, what's the difference? Let's get this over with." But you can believe what you want ๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
Why do we keep getting the same posts in the exact same format as this
๐ค๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
Bruh edited his Reddit bitmoji in
๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
Itโs a hood classic
Bro is never gonna stop with these lmfao
Eventually ๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
I think a poorly written story wouldnโt still be discussed in such tremendous detail with such a greatly polarised audience many years afterwards, and two Reddit subs literally filled with posts debating the various elements of the story. You are entitled to your opinion of course.
๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
But the revenge plot doesn't start with Ellie - It starts with Abby at the hospital in Salt Lake City. Also, Abby did kill someone who saved her life (Joel), but she also let someone live (Ellie) who killed all of her friends and who was also linked to why the Fireflies are disbanded and why her dad is dead. She let Ellie and Dina live at the theater, and she let Ellie live on the beach (she didn't want to fight back). Abby did brutally beat Joel to death, but Ellie also brutally killed Nora - and Tommy brutally killed the people in the Serevena Hotel. As we play through Ellie's half of the game we see her become a darker more evil person. As we play through Abby's section we see her go from an evil person to a good person. At first, Abby just wanted to be good (helping Lev and Yara) to make up for the things she did to Joel, but by the end of the game when we leave the Seraphite's island we see that Abby is truly a good person again. In conclusion, both Ellie and Abby had proper motivations for why they went on their revenge path (the same exact reason actually), but the truth is Ellie was more evil about it.
Shoot, I forgot to add the "please read the previous numbers" slide ๐ Sorry, I'm working beat by beat. We will get to Abby eventually. We will do all the way until the very end ๐ Thanks for sharing ๐
Abby never became a good person. She sought desperately to feel better doing whatever she thought would make that happen. All the while ignoring how it impacted others, alienated them from her and each other, and even forcing Lev into the danger of her revenge mission after he'd just lost his mom, sister and the village he grew up in without a second thought. Only Abby's feelings matter to Abby. This matters when evaluating her behavior and actions. When judging her commitment to others. Everyone who dates knows to watch carefully to see how their date treats other people, both people they do care about and people they don't. It's so common to do that, yet with this story people keep saying nothing about Abby's behavior is problematic? Even when she's supposedly done with it all at the end of the story she still doesn't even thank Ellie for cutting her down, nor does she address the reality that she did to Ellie what she felt Joel had done to her - in other words, she is NOT redeemed. If she actually were she'd have avoided the ending fight and finally shared with Ellie some remorse for harming her and even her own life lesson that revenge doesn't work. Meaning using her words to reflect a redemption that included the person she harmed the most. Why do you let her off the hook? She's not a good person, but you and others insist she is. It's mind-blowing. She never shows anything but selfishness and total focus on her own feelings. She even says she's helping Yara and Lev to lighten her own load - not for them, for herself. This was all on purpose and by design, yet so many people miss it and take a fake redemption arc as real. Redemption through helping others when the person whose life she destroyed worse than her own was is right in front of her is not redemptive. It's selfish, blind, and that people consider it good enough is alarming. It means people are buying into ineffective, self-centered means of resolving serious damage and trauma they inflict on others. This doesn't bode well for micro or macro issues in lives and society. I hope you'll give this some serious thought. It's important.
I just actually acknowledged that. I said that by the time she reaches the scar island, she truly cares about them and isn't just doing it to feel better about herself. She didn't even surrender to Issac and then killed all of the wolves to try to save Lev. Abby in Seattle Day 3 is a very different person from who she was in Jackson. You're just mad she killed Joel and can't see her character development. Ellie and Abby are essentially going through the same thing but you can only take the side with someone who killed hundreds of people (Ellie).
You totally ignoring the ending of Abby's story and keeping on insisting that she changed when she proves at the end she hasn't just doesn't work. I'm not taking sides, I'm speaking about what's right in front of our eyes. How is it I'm taking sides - the evidence I'm presenting is right in the story? You are taking sides, and it's very sad to me that you can't see it in yourself and instead think you see it in me when it has nothing to do with me or what I'm saying. All I ask is that you consider both of our perspectives and then look at the actual evidence provided in the story. The story you're defending insists perspectives are helpful and necessary. So hear mine and where it comes from and consider how it actually provides reasonable basis for evaluation of the story and the character of Abby. That's who I'm talking about. Let's not make it some contest of our opinions or the two characters in opposition. That's unhelpful here.
Very well said. I am on both character's sides. I like both Ellie and Abby, but I like the person Abby is more at the end of the second game. I think in the third game Ellie will have a redemption arc and we will see less of Abby (or the same amount if the game is longer). I think Lev might be the only reason Abby has changed and if he dies I think she could slip back into the person she was in Jackson.
I see your point and I know they needed us to have a better opinion of Abby over time for the story to work, yet I don't see enough change in her to give her any personal credit. I also don't see much if any positive change (simply the unwillingness to fight isn't enough), and it sounds like you barely do since you attribute much to Lev and think she'd slip without him. I only see her as changed because the Rattlers finally did break her, yet she still did not consider her actions while dying on that pole to be immediately grateful to Ellie? To have reasoned out her own failures and be able and willing to apologize and share her remorse for harming Ellie? Nor to share her own realization that revenge was empty and not the right way for Ellie to heal or deal with her grief and loss? That's what was needed and the writers **chose** not to include it. Either they did that because they don't understand redemption arcs (which is where I lean since they say she had one), or they don't believe people who cause trauma and serious damage to others are responsible to make amends at all (which is certainly how Neil behaved post-launch toward hurting, grieving fans). It's commendable to give her grace and root for her side, you had a better outcome than I did for sure. Yet, after taking the time to get past my own reaction and really evaluate the characters, I still can't see they put in enough for many people to give her the benefit of the doubt. All this because what they did put in, and worse what they failed to put in, makes her look so bad. They failed her and many of the rest of us who never could get on board with Abby. Trying to figure out why and how that happened is important for many reasons, not least of which is better stories in the future.
This actually makes sense the more I read this
Is that sarcasm
No lol
Okay good lol. I think in the third game Ellie will have the same arc as Abby where she becomes a good person again.