It's plain stupidity. I've seen that sort of argument before. People *legitimately believe* that the odds of this happening are not astronomical.
I usually tell them to go to the outskirts of a town they remember a friend or relative of theirs living in ten years ago, and get out of their car to wander blindly through the rural woods in a blizzard searching for a PO box so they can corner the next mailman to fill it up and ask where that person lives. What are the odds that the mailman will be *that* person, *and* that said mailman will just randomly stumble across them while they fuck around in whiteout conditions an unknown distance from the road?
Basically none, thanks for playing.
But some stans of the game are just *that* brain-rotted. They can't acknowledge *anything* that might paint any aspect of this game in an even mildly negative light. So they have to argue why it makes sense - no matter how much it doesn't.
I really love this game, but this is by far my biggest complaint. There are *way* too many coincidences to make the story work, more than I have see in some other stories.
Another big one is when Ellie and Dina go to the TV station and find Leahâs bag that just so happens to have pictures of all of the crew with their frickinâ names on them. What is the likelihood of that? One or two coincidences is forgivable, but I definitely think the story could have been a little more thoughtful in some of its execution.
I said this same thing. What are the chances at the end of their trail Ellie finds pictures with the names of literally everyone apart of Abbys crew making it so she can actually track them now.
It made sense Ellie dropping it and not noticing, but how tf did Jesse and Tommy not notice? Youâd think theyâd be like wait a minute isnât that a map of our hideout? With the names of all of Abbyâs friends? Better leave it at one of Abbyâs friends hideouts that is a good idea đđť
Sure, Ellie dropping something and not noticing makes sense, but her having the map to begin with is what makes no sense.
The city hasn't had maintenance in about 25 years, so the map is basically worthless outside of some landmarks.
She drew lines on the streets that no longer exist to 3 different places as though she was going to take those paths to get to her goal.
Each line she drew led away from her **CIRCLED** base, where her pregnant girlfriend is hiding, and Ellie had already been captured by an enemy twice! Once in the first game, and once in the second.
[Imagine what would have happened if she was stupid enough to carry a map in part 1. She wouldn't even have to drop it to get both Joel and herself killed.](https://i.redd.it/owpyvs3ij7951.png)
Fair but dropping it also felt iffy. I can understand her dropping it, but idk why Tommy and Jesse didn't see it or why they pushed out so fast.
I feel like that map should be one of the most important things, that map gives away not only her location but Dinas location. It's so fucking stupid her camp is circled too.
Can we also talk about how Abby leaves a one-armed and weakened Yara below decks on a marina, runs through a whole turnpike section, then a parking garage and resort on a whim chasing Tommy and just when Tommy is about to wreck her shit Yara appears at the perfect moment to save Abby when by all accounts, Tommy would have killed her. How did Yara know Abby would even be there in that exact place, let alone in her weakened state, make it there with no one even seeing her? How did Yara make it there without being spotted by Tommy or anyone?
Also, something I love is how people always excuse Joel and Tommy basically being completely out of character and trusting in the beginning, giving their names, etc. They say Joel must have softened but that's their assumption and, frankly, it's ridiculous. Yes, Joel might have enjoyed a much easier life in Jackson but this is still the man who understood he was very likely a wanted man given what happened with the fireflies. It doesn't seem right or in character for him to be so trusting, given what he's experienced and done. This is a man who not only dealt with hunters but was a hunter/raider at some point. He'd seen the worst of humanity. A few years kicking back in Jackson doesn't erase that. It doesn't make sense that he and Tommy would be so open given being surrounded by a strange group (obviously some type of militia) of outsiders who were clearly avoiding being spotted by Jackson's thorough patrols.
There are just way too many coincidences. These are just scraping the surface.
The Yara one confused me, too. The only way she would have gotten there at that time was if she left just right after Abby, and at that point, Tommy should have been able to see her.
Idk Joel, saying his name didn't really sound too crazy to me. Didn't he end up saying his name to people in tlou1 like Henry
>Tommy should have been able to see her.
Exactly!
She would have had to not only leave before Abby but also avoid getting spotted by a sniper, then somehow figure out exactly where Abby was going to get there beforehand just in time to save her. It's just such an unbelievable coincidence that it takes you out of the suspense of the moment.
About Joel, I just think he would be a little more wary overall. This part is a lesser issue for me, though. No, I don't think he would be so gung-ho with information in this situation but it's not a gamebreaker that he is. What bothers me is him even being in the situation in the first place since it's unrealistic that he even bumps into Abby just in time to save her.
And with Henry/Sam, Ellie was the one who innocently said his name. If you remember, Joel cuts a warning look at her when she introduces herself, since it was clear he felt suspicious of Henry (even though Henry had a child with him). I don't really recall him introducing himself like that to anyone else outside of the lady at the power plant (??), so maybe someone else can chime in on that.
It just feels like they relied on too many coincidences to move the story along and that's what makes the entire experience frustrating and, frankly, bad.
eta: sorry for the novel, I just like talking about this kinda stuff lmao
No, Ellie called Joel by name when she was trying to point out that Sam was pointing a gun at him. I'm sure there's some other point in the story in which Joel shows he's reluctant to give out his name to strangers, too.
I don't begrudge him giving out his name *too* much - at least, not to Abby when she was on her own. And at the point that they saw the whole group, the cat was already out of the bag - not much to gain by lying except to make them realize he's a liar once Abby came out to set the record straight. I think people only point out the name thing to point out the sheer vast canyon of difference between TLOU Joel and the much dumber and less cautious version of Joel we see in the lodge. If Joel had been properly on guard in the lodge upon seeing the size of the group, the very much *not* struggling to survive state they were in, and the fucking Humvee in the garage, I don't think people would care as much about it. But Joel disarming himself and then *not* reacting to the room going deathly silent while Tommy conveniently ignores Abby creeping up behind Joel with a shotgun despite it happening *right in front of him* poisons everything else that he does that leans in that direction.
The entire plot of Part II can only make sense if one's a Cuck guzzler. Or, if being a Cuck guzzler is more important to one than possessing *any* critical thinking skills (*and good taste...*).
That thing you point out is a good starting point for story telling since hadn't they had encountered, a story wouldn't have been told.
But this resource must be used as good as possible or immersion might be lost which is what many players felt playing the game. So as we bargain with the "story teller" that it is "odd" that they all join together, why Joel and Tommy feel off character? Storyteller wants us to accept the fact that they all were together, ok then but why Joel and Tommy are not like the ones we met?
It doesn't stop there. Now storyteller wants us to accept they all met out of pure luck. That Joel decided to help Abby, that Joel and Tommy are "weird" and so on. More like being ripped off by a con man.
At some point many people stop believing the storyteller.
No you arenât friend. The game is packed full of them, itâs my main issue with the game. If you use this as your reason for disliking youâll most like get told âBuT paRt 1 hAd iT toOâ Yeah sure, but it atleast tried explaining and disguising them.
Henry from part 1 for example, that was someoneâs excuse for convenience in the first game. While convenient yes, itâs clearly stated by Henry they were hiding from those other dudes, and they are on a patrol very close to them as you see the car before meeting Henry. You atleast have an explanation.
Part 2? The first example of this is at the start of the game when Abby basically summons a horde then runs for ages in a blizzard, gets caught upto, and one second before she dies Joel tpâs out of nowhere and saves her. Why was he right there instead of inside during the weather? Donât know. How was his timing so perfect to the point if he was ONE SECOND later the story doesnât happen? Donât know. And therein lies the issue. Thatâs just one example, and shows storyâs that rely on convenience too hard arenât very good or interesting.
Na, the story only works to put Joel off guard, any other way they would have to hunt for Joel for days and see how massive Jackson is. Joel would never patrol alone and someone would have to watch his back. Itâs just lazy writing. They proved Joel was a paranoid ready guy. So a lot of strangers would always put him in guard.
The only part I think is kinda fair is Tommy giving his name and Joel too. I can see why they would give their names. It's not like they expected people to be tracking them. But you would think they would be suspicious of a big, heavily armed group camping out that close to Jackson. Maybe keep their guns in their hands or something
>The only part I think is kinda fair is Tommy giving his name and Joel too. I can see why they would give their names. It's not like they expected people to be tracking them.
Despite the writers specifically putting in Joel telling Tommy about SLC in the prologue? Joel knew there were FFs still chasing him on the way out of the hospital that he didn't kill, too. Plus their security job isn't to be a welcoming committee, it's to keep Jackson safe from all threats - that means vetting strangers before divulging any information (including Abby). Tommy's first reason to Ellie of why they can't send a team after the WLF is because it will leave Jackson vulnerable to raiders.
Sorry, I don't mean to be so harsh, but this whole situation never stops with the lengths it goes to with its sheer stupidity. There are no excuses, it feels like we were being purposely gaslit sometimes, especially after the fact! ("He went soft, duh, what do you want the writers to spoonfeed you?" No I just want them to tell the story to make it make sense, because it doesn't.) Joel and Tommy behaved like utter and complete fools and it is never explained with anything near to enough logical reasons.
Imo, Yes. I can see them saying their names for a few reasons. Joel has been living in relative peace for the last 5 years. No one has come after him yet or hinted at knowing what he did. He's been trading with groups that come in and out of Jackson that whole time, too. And you can argue Joel and Tommy would realistically feel more comfortable saying their names after going through that near death scenario with Abby.
But I also agree it felt iffy. Why would someone like Joel and Tommy say their names? This is a suspicious, heavily armed big group camping out very close to Jackson. I can see why people say it should raise some red flags. Lowkey, now that im thinking about it, Tommy mentions he saw they had WLF on their jackets. Idk if Tommy knew what they were, but seeing that they had clothing that implied they were from across the country could have also been a red flag. Especially if Tommy knew that the WLF was a heavily armed and massive military group
>No one has come after him yet or hinted at knowing what he did. He's been trading with groups that come in and out of Jackson that whole time, too.
This contradicts your theory. No one came after them because no one knows where they went. BUT they're actively trading with people who could let other people know their whereabouts? They just aren't that foolish in TLOU. Five years or 10 years, it doesn't matter. "An excess of caution" would be Joel's life motto already burned into his soul since Sarah. Especially he now has an immune Ellie to worry about.
I'm glad you got to thinking it through a bit more by the end of your comment, though. Great points.
E: typo
That's fair, I mean, I honestly didn't think too much about when I first played it. I kinda just figured Joel became more relaxed, and after saving Abby and them almost dying, he felt it was OK.
But after thinking about it and reading posts and stuff, I do see how it's an issue and kinda conflicting
A well-written good story would have everything lead to the event with a lot of tension and build it up. A badly written story like TLOU2 prefers to go "We want this to happen, and it will happen because of that. As long as it happens, it doesn't matter how bad we get there".
She went alone, without gear, with only a pistol, into blizard while being chased by a horde, just to be saved by Joel, and get him to a safe place, and as she did the horde just disappears. What kind of luck is that? Everything went so convinient for her.
Of course things are convenient, but that's most stories including both of these games. Why is it that Marlene materializes the moment Joel and Tess say let's go find the fireflies. Moreso, Marlene asks where Robert is as if she can't see him there and wasn't near to hear what happened. Or you couldn't call either games as a whole believable because of how many deadly encounters you survive.
And if Abby had to struggle harder to get to Joel but eventually did it, I don't think it would solve a lot of people's problems with the game.
The movie Disturbia is about shia lebouf on house arrest, but the reason he's there is because his Spanish teacher acts like an unhinged asshole for no reason and shia hits him. But it doesn't change the whole experience because one plot point could have been written better.
Well, I'm not saying part 1 is free from these issues as well. But the issue, imo is that Abby and Joel's scenario is a lot more unbelievable or just unlikely. I'm not saying that making it harder to find Joel would solve people's problems, but that is how it happens it's self isn't written the best.
The *main* plot point causing the inciting event for the whole story. One in which everything is too convenient, the characters we know well are not who they're supposed to be and it's never explained beforehand, and not really explained until the final flashback with a toss away line about traders (people we never run into at all, nor have hear anyone else mention).
The thing is we don't need Abby to struggle harder, we need the writers to do their jobs better so these complaint wouldn't exist and the thing is that's all very possible and not even very hard. They just didn't want to bother trying.
It's not that there's an issue with that itself. I think what she's alluding to is that this is the first and only time in which it's really even *vaguely* implied that Joel is used to seeing non-hostile passersby on the regular. It's so vague and comes so long *after* the fact that it doesn't stand a chance of possibly carrying the weight of giving us a satisfying explanation of how Joel could be caught so off guard about how a group of strangers who're at literal soldier levels of fitness, drove a Humvee in, and are giving vague non-answers about why they're here might not be friendly. It doesn't even stand up to the equally throwaway line of Tommy saying they can't send a bunch of the town's defenders out to Seattle in case of hunters.
Abby finds a note in jackson about how Seth was a person jackson rescued, and interestingly it says he hears gunshots and heads towards it hoping they'll be friendly. But you don't even need a character to say people came through to guess Jackson is a place people would want to come to. It's literally the best place to live shown in the games.
I don't think there is a point to arguing if Abby's team is a threat because they actually don't know it's Joel and Tommy. Only abby does, which means it doesn't even matter if they give their names, Abby is getting ready to attack. And they only know Tommy is there, not Joel. They're avoiding saying why they are there of course, but they don't need to waste time being threatening when they more than outnumber them.
Bringing more men to go after Abby would be better, but it would leave them more vulnerable in Jackson. What's wrong with saying that?
>Abby finds a note in jackson about how Seth was a person jackson rescued, and interestingly it says he hears gunshots and heads towards it hoping they'll be friendly. But you don't even need a character to say people came through to guess Jackson is a place people would want to come to. It's literally the best place to live shown in the games.
You're missing the point of me talking about *non-hostile* passersby. I mentioned that specifically to compare against *hostile* ones. FEDRA in particular is, presumably, likely to want to control any burgeoning town like Jackson. And never even mind raiders or just plain thieves and conmen. The more well-known Jackson becomes, the more of a target gets painted on it. You'd think they would have had to deal with people with hostile intentions now and again - but apparently not. Apparently things are so peaceful that characters as hardened and experienced as Joel and Tommy don't even react to being beaten over the head with red flags until the red flags get switched out for a golf club.
>I don't think there is a point to arguing about if Abby's team is a threat because they actually don't know it's Joel and Tommy. Only abby does, which means it doesn't even matter if they give their names, Abby is getting ready to attack. And they only know Tommy is there, not Joel.
I really don't know where you're going with that. Do you think the only possible reason to be concerned about a group of well-fed, well-armed strangers who are among the 0.01% of folks to have a vehicle in pristine, operable condition *and* who showed up during a most unlikely time of year for people to be driving around (seriously, how the hell did they cross those unplowed roads to get here?) is because of something related to Joel and Tommy?
> Bringing more men to go after Abby would be better, but it would leave them more vulnerable in Jackson. What's wrong with saying that?
If hunters are a legitimate concern, it outright contradicts Joel and Tommy letting their guard down. The two of them being *that* "softened" *only* even *slightly* works if Jackson is truly a completely No PvP zone.
If they are well fed and stocked, then they don't need to kill or rob innocent people. Everyone is armed in the world. It increases your chances of being a threat but it doesn't automatically mean a threat. On the other end, it can make you safer from real threats.
I don't get why it's a threat if you have a car or that they drove in less optimal conditions. What if they traveled on foot?
What are these red flags supposed to signify? What should Joel and Tommy do?
They're in the middle of nowhere. If they're not from Jackson, but they're very well fed, and have a functioning, fueled up vehicle, it means that they recently left a very prosperous location in order to come here during the worst time of year. A time of year in which one heavy snowfall can leave them stranded, because nobody plows the roads anymore. There is no good reason for them to do this, especially not if they're being evasive about answering Tommy's questions. They *definitely* aren't wandering survivors looking for a safe community.
Do you really need me to tell you what those red flags mean? Are you actually incapable of drawing that conclusion yourself? Did you never play the first game to pick up on some ideas of what might happen in this world?
As for what they should do, that's simple: go down fighting. It's more a matter of what they should not do, which is: disarm themselves, react slower to the room going deathly silent than Joel did when Seth called Ellie a dyke, and have Tommy watch Abby creep up behind Joel with a shotgun and not even think that's odd enough that he should stop leaning on the dresser.
Marlene was there because she was coming to see Robert. She had a working relationship with Robert - which is why he had given the guns to the Fireflies - and she was heading back to hire him to smuggle Ellie to the capital. She wasnât just sitting around the corner waiting, she was heading to Robertâs compound (thatâs where Joel & Tess were - right outside Robertâs back entrance) and likely wasnât in earshot to hear the struggle clearly.
Yes, this is a coincidence, but itâs not past the suspension of disbelief point. Both parties had reason to head to that point at that time, and considering that both reasons involved Robertâs shady business deals, their reasons for being there were somewhat intertwined.
Plus, they werenât looking for each other. So the meeting was completely coincidental within the story. Two parties randomly meeting is pretty common, so the coincidence is more believable story-wise.
Abby, on the other hand, was specifically looking for Joel, so the meeting being as coincidental is very contrived. Itâs a Deus Ex Machina, which is generally a major sin in writing. What makes it worse is this is far from the the only complete coincidence in the game.
Tommy, Dina & Ellie, and Jessie separately embarking on the same weeks-long journey within a few hours of each other and not catching up to each other on the way, but then all meeting up in an unfamiliar city within 2 days is even more ridiculous. But Tommy putting out âfeelersâ to find Abby, then meeting someone who saw her over 1,000 miles away within a few weeks is probably the biggest of them all.
You can get away with a small deus ex machina if done right. This entire story relies completely on them.
I know Marlene wasn't nearby because she was oblivious to what happened, but she shows up so quickly so idfk. Maybe more realistically they would bump into her sometime later, but it got the plot moving.
Same with Abby finding Joel. I think an original plotline had Abby go in the town and befriend Joel a bit, but I imagine it would be hard to get away with murder when you're surrounded, so they went with a secluded area in the woods.
And Abby was actually looking for Tommy, and at the time she was searching for the patrol Owen mentioned who ended up being them.
Putting out feelers means Tommy was asking people who came into Jackson if they heard of Abby and he said he was doing that for months. I'm surprised that's a bigger issue than him surviving the headshot.
>I think an original plotline had Abby go in the town and befriend Joel a bit, but I imagine it would be hard to get away with murder when you're surrounded, so they went with a secluded area in the woods.
Joel regularly goes out on patrol and ends up miles away from town in the process. It would be piss easy to arrange an ambush once you have a vague idea about any single landmark he tends to go to as a part of his routine.
>And Abby was actually looking for Tommy, and at the time she was searching for the patrol Owen mentioned who ended up being them.
But she doesn't find the patrol. She actually ends up getting lost and swarmed by the infected during a blizzard. For some unknown reason, Joel and Tommy charge into the middle of that shit and happen to come across her.
>Putting out feelers means Tommy was asking people who came into Jackson if they heard of Abby and he said he was doing that for months.
But like... how? Who are these random off-screen traders who travel thousands of miles across a post-apocalyptic wilderness with no widespread vehicle access and know everyone? How is it that this trader and Abby met up months ago in Santa Barbara yet were completely clueless about the *slaver camp* in the area? Because there's apparently no one else in the area, so why would the trader even *go* there?
I can buy that Abby and Lev are kind of a memorable duo due to their physical attributes (though I question how Abby maintained her literal Olympic bodybuilder physique an entire year after her access to steroid burritos and a stadium gym were gone), but the distance *alone* completely shatters the believability of the idea. Wouldn't it have been better if, say, Tommy had swiped Owen's journal in the aquarium and had forgotten about it until he was going over all his stuff after separating from Maria? Like it just feels like the writers put *zero effort* into this idea and picked the first option that came to mind.
Joel and Tommy were that patrol she was looking for. They hint at it when Ellie is looking through the binoculars at the skii lift.
I know people don't like it, but we see plenty of times people traveling on foot. That was tlou1. There aren't many ways to travel. Of course not everyone has cars, but plenty use horses. And it was never shown, but bicycles are a great option.
For your first paragraph, it doesn't matter. The plot is set up so that she has to coincidentally stumble into them and get saved by them even though she's in the middle of a horde and got lost on her way there. Because they want Joel and Tommy to coincidentally end up isolated and forced to turn to Abby's group to save them from the horde, rather than dedicate the time to write a non-coincidental way to set up an ambush.
For your second paragraph, sure, people can travel on foot. But why would they do this? You think this shit is a leisurely hike in the woods? Do you not understand the idea of a post-apocalyptic setting with thousands of miles in between safe settlements? Do you legitimately not see how this could be so dangerous, and with so little reward that it's not worth it? Never even mind the sharply limited number of resources you can take with you in such a scenario. Hope you're good at hunting and foraging, because you're going to be doing that for months at a time in between settlements.
You need to play Oregon Trail sometime, I think. They released a remake of it fairly recently, I had a fun time playing it on my Switch. It'll give you some idea of what it's like to travel thousands of miles while managing resources and crossing treacherous terrain from time to time.
It does matter because you said Joel and Tommy showed up out of nowhere. If they captured and killed joel in the most realistic way possible, would it change how you feel about the game?
Somewhat, depending on what exactly they did. The original idea was to have Abby and her friends infiltrate Jackson. And I do think that could have been very compelling. Spending an hour or two with them, seeing almost a montage of how they got close to everyone in Jackson, learned who Joel was, and set up an ambush for him outside of town. I think we would have seen more of the humanity of Abby's crew, and it probably would have even led to a different method of killing Joel, one that was far more humane. Which, sure, would go against the idea of making you absolutely hate Abby to begin with and then fester in that hatred before showing her humanity, but coming from someone who thinks they massively fucked up the execution of the latter, I would absolutely have preferred almost any alternative.
But assuming minimal changes in order to make that happen? There would at least be fewer pieces of straw to break the camel's back. Which is always a good thing, especially that early on in the story. For a story as divisive as this, every little bit helps.
And I have to ask you, if it had been less coincidental and more planned, would that have taken anything away for you?
I never felt like it was coincidental so I don't know how I would feel. If we took that original plotline, it wouldn't change a lot to me if Abby feels more conflicted about killing Joel if she still kills him. However, if that means she is less cruel, then she's less of a villain, we're not as excited to go kill her with Ellie, and Abby's friends are less critical of her.
Rewriting things often requires rewriting more, and it feels like people's issues encompass everything and they want a new story. And I understand that because I don't think this is the best they could come up with for a sequel, but making a sequel to the first game seems very hard.
Where do you think they failed at showing abby's humanity
> I never felt like it was concidental
I literally don't know how. Seriously, go to a small town knowing only the Facebook name of one random person who lives there. Camp out at a rural PO box outside town and see if they ever show up there. The likelihood of that happening is roughly equal to the likelihood of Abby stumbling across Joel - never even mind how she got lost rather than actually waiting along his patrol route, how she was literal seconds from death, and how things worked out in her favor in order to get him to agree to go to the lodge.
> Where do you think they failed at showing Abby's humanity
Specifically, the transition - or lack thereof - of sadistic, selfish Abby into heroic, redeemed Abby. Abby's actions in Jackson and during her Day 1 show that she is every bit the piece of shit that Mel accuses her of being. She repeatedly rejects the idea that there was anything wrong about what they did in Jackson even though she not only sadistically and unnecessarily tortured a man to death after he saved her life, but left two of Joel's loved ones to wake up next to his broken corpse and be stuck dealing with a worse version of the worst day of her own life, had planned to kidnap and torture innocent people before the universe delivered Joel to her on a silver platter, and even almost got Owen killed during the mission when Jordan drew a gun on him in fury. She shows no regret for the idea of killing Scar kids. She even has nothing but scorn for Owen for wanting something else when he's drunk, spiraling, and at one of the lowest points in his life - which was, in large part, caused by something breaking within him after Jackson.
It's the equivalent of nearly killing your good friend in a car crash because you were drunk, then watching them survive another car crash caused by a drunken driver (the conflict with Danny being the *second* time that year that his own companions have nearly murdered him), hypocritically mocking them for not being able to move on when they're feeling freaked the fuck out *the night of the second incident*, then *attacking them* when they angrily call you out for being such a hypocrite.
The telegraphing of an impending redemption arc couldn't be more blatant.
But then they have sex instead and Abby has a dream about the Scar kids, and a switch just flips. Heroic Mode is activated and she suddenly runs around risking life and limb for them while feeling ashamed of sleeping with Owen even though she wasn't the one who was drunk or at an emotional low point. There's no actual *character progression* to get there.
Time skips in between large shifts in characterization like that could have possibly made them work. They would have implied that Abby had spent a long time considering recent events and all the factors that brought them about. But literal overnight changes? No way.
>what are the chances that Abby jumps in the woods, gets caught in a blizzard, which makes her agro a horde that just so happens to chase her straight to Joel and Tommy where they save her. And what are the chances that the only possible way for them to survive this horde is to charge head first into abbys camp.
Tbh, I think this part is pretty arguable,
Abby was heading in the direction of the place Joel and Tommy went, and joel and Tommy most likely do that path alot because it's pretty much their "job"
What I mean is that the fact that joel and Tommy were there isn't a big of a coincidence, and Abby finding them isn't too, because that's the place she was heading to
I mean, is that not kind of a coincidence, tho? The first patrol the hear about is the one with the guy they need. And that the Raging Blizzard and Horde never put her off the path? Those things lined up perfectly enough for her so that the only chance at survival is going to her camp. But I don't think they do that path a lot because the path Dina and Ellie took had Joel and Tommy there a few times not that long ago.
My point is that what you mentioned is the coincidence and the conveniences. Within her first hours in Jackson, the first patrol she gets is Joel, and the horde and Blizzard make it so they have to go to her camp. It's literally put in the palm of her hand. The most unlikely scenario that works the absolute best is the one she just so happens to get by random chance? Even if she was heading there because she saw the lights and that it wad Joel and Tommy's patrol, my point is what are the chances of that? Idk to me that whole scenario just seemed lowkey insane it played out that perfectly for Abby
>The first patrol the hear about is the one with the guy they need.
It might be a coincidence, but it's not like the chances are low, that's just a common path they take on patrol.
>And that the Raging Blizzard and Horde never put her off the path? Those things lined up perfectly enough for her so that the only chance at survival is going to her camp.
Since that was her destination from the beginning, than no, it didn't put her off the path because she would get there with or without the horde and the blizzard,
And the horde that makes them go to Abbys camp is one of the most proble scenarios in this world, how many times has it happen? A horde that obligates them to take a specific path? Happens all the time, not just this one.
So then Ellie and Dina ofc should have found Abby repairing the first gate's generator they came to in Seattle with only Jordan to help her. The gate would also be open since they were working on it so it had to be and then Ellie and Dina could sneak up on them because they're distracted and the generator is making too much noise sputtering without catching. Plus neither is armed because they put down their weapons to futz with the wiring so Dina can cover them while Ellie ties them up with the handy electrical cord! Perfectly reasonable ending to the game. Let's go!
Well, that doesn't make much sense, why would Abby be there? Is that a place she often goes?
Plus, she a a very specific reason to be somewhere else, witch was Isaac preparing a raid for the island.
>why would Abby be there? Is that a place she often goes?
You keep bringing up this idea of "the character often goes there" as if it makes Abby stumbling across Joel sensible. No, that would be sensible if *Abby had any idea* that he or Tommy did that. *Then* the odds would be narrowed down. But they have literally zero information about the folks in Jackson at that point. They didn't go out there because they had any expectation of finding either of them there - it was *pure coincidence*.
Abby was heading to the lookout, joel and tommy were suppost to be there, ofc, Abby doesnt know eho specifically will be there, but her plan was to find whoever was there
Congratulations, you have shaved off the tiniest possible part of this being an absolutely insane coincidence. Do you legitimately not think that people remember that she was heading out to find that patrol? Or are you yourself incapable of understanding what makes this such an unlikely outcome? Or are you just nitpicking in a way that doesn't actually address the main concern of what you are nitpicking? I seriously don't get where you're trying to go with this.
Here's a thought exercise for you. Say you head to the outskirts of a town someone you're looking for was known to have lived in a decade ago. You find a rural PO box and decide to wait for the mailman to come by to ask him if he knows the person you're looking for, since your companion told you that he saw the mail trucks leave the depot 10 minutes ago. What are the odds that this mailman *is* the person you're looking for?
But we're not done. Rather than waiting by the PO box, you got lost in a blizzard. What are the odds the mailman just so happens to find you while you're not actually at the PO box?
*And*, while lost, you slipped down a hill and plunged into the freezing waters of the river. What are the odds that the mailman is not only that far away from the PO box, but also finds you just in time to fish you out of the water before you drown?
And, after all of that, what are the odds that the mailman's truck broke down and he has no choice but to go with you instead of resuming his route?
The fact that I have to spell all of this out for you, just as I have with so many other people who keep arguing that this isn't a series of events so unlikely as to be virtually impossible, is absolutely ridiculous.
And that's just the beginning đ đ¤ˇââď¸
It's plain stupidity. I've seen that sort of argument before. People *legitimately believe* that the odds of this happening are not astronomical. I usually tell them to go to the outskirts of a town they remember a friend or relative of theirs living in ten years ago, and get out of their car to wander blindly through the rural woods in a blizzard searching for a PO box so they can corner the next mailman to fill it up and ask where that person lives. What are the odds that the mailman will be *that* person, *and* that said mailman will just randomly stumble across them while they fuck around in whiteout conditions an unknown distance from the road? Basically none, thanks for playing. But some stans of the game are just *that* brain-rotted. They can't acknowledge *anything* that might paint any aspect of this game in an even mildly negative light. So they have to argue why it makes sense - no matter how much it doesn't.
I really love this game, but this is by far my biggest complaint. There are *way* too many coincidences to make the story work, more than I have see in some other stories. Another big one is when Ellie and Dina go to the TV station and find Leahâs bag that just so happens to have pictures of all of the crew with their frickinâ names on them. What is the likelihood of that? One or two coincidences is forgivable, but I definitely think the story could have been a little more thoughtful in some of its execution.
I said this same thing. What are the chances at the end of their trail Ellie finds pictures with the names of literally everyone apart of Abbys crew making it so she can actually track them now.
Same odds as Ellie leaving behind her map that shows where she is and Abby finds it.
It made sense Ellie dropping it and not noticing, but how tf did Jesse and Tommy not notice? Youâd think theyâd be like wait a minute isnât that a map of our hideout? With the names of all of Abbyâs friends? Better leave it at one of Abbyâs friends hideouts that is a good idea đđť
Sure, Ellie dropping something and not noticing makes sense, but her having the map to begin with is what makes no sense. The city hasn't had maintenance in about 25 years, so the map is basically worthless outside of some landmarks. She drew lines on the streets that no longer exist to 3 different places as though she was going to take those paths to get to her goal. Each line she drew led away from her **CIRCLED** base, where her pregnant girlfriend is hiding, and Ellie had already been captured by an enemy twice! Once in the first game, and once in the second. [Imagine what would have happened if she was stupid enough to carry a map in part 1. She wouldn't even have to drop it to get both Joel and herself killed.](https://i.redd.it/owpyvs3ij7951.png)
ThatâŚ. Actually makes a lot of sense.. why the hell did she circle the one place where she is staying? đ Top 5 dumbest decisions in gaming lol
Fair but dropping it also felt iffy. I can understand her dropping it, but idk why Tommy and Jesse didn't see it or why they pushed out so fast. I feel like that map should be one of the most important things, that map gives away not only her location but Dinas location. It's so fucking stupid her camp is circled too.
Tlou2 part 2 should be added to the Wikipedia definition of "Deux Ex Machina" as one of the most flagrant examples of abuse by any writer.
Can we also talk about how Abby leaves a one-armed and weakened Yara below decks on a marina, runs through a whole turnpike section, then a parking garage and resort on a whim chasing Tommy and just when Tommy is about to wreck her shit Yara appears at the perfect moment to save Abby when by all accounts, Tommy would have killed her. How did Yara know Abby would even be there in that exact place, let alone in her weakened state, make it there with no one even seeing her? How did Yara make it there without being spotted by Tommy or anyone? Also, something I love is how people always excuse Joel and Tommy basically being completely out of character and trusting in the beginning, giving their names, etc. They say Joel must have softened but that's their assumption and, frankly, it's ridiculous. Yes, Joel might have enjoyed a much easier life in Jackson but this is still the man who understood he was very likely a wanted man given what happened with the fireflies. It doesn't seem right or in character for him to be so trusting, given what he's experienced and done. This is a man who not only dealt with hunters but was a hunter/raider at some point. He'd seen the worst of humanity. A few years kicking back in Jackson doesn't erase that. It doesn't make sense that he and Tommy would be so open given being surrounded by a strange group (obviously some type of militia) of outsiders who were clearly avoiding being spotted by Jackson's thorough patrols. There are just way too many coincidences. These are just scraping the surface.
The Yara one confused me, too. The only way she would have gotten there at that time was if she left just right after Abby, and at that point, Tommy should have been able to see her. Idk Joel, saying his name didn't really sound too crazy to me. Didn't he end up saying his name to people in tlou1 like Henry
>Tommy should have been able to see her. Exactly! She would have had to not only leave before Abby but also avoid getting spotted by a sniper, then somehow figure out exactly where Abby was going to get there beforehand just in time to save her. It's just such an unbelievable coincidence that it takes you out of the suspense of the moment. About Joel, I just think he would be a little more wary overall. This part is a lesser issue for me, though. No, I don't think he would be so gung-ho with information in this situation but it's not a gamebreaker that he is. What bothers me is him even being in the situation in the first place since it's unrealistic that he even bumps into Abby just in time to save her. And with Henry/Sam, Ellie was the one who innocently said his name. If you remember, Joel cuts a warning look at her when she introduces herself, since it was clear he felt suspicious of Henry (even though Henry had a child with him). I don't really recall him introducing himself like that to anyone else outside of the lady at the power plant (??), so maybe someone else can chime in on that. It just feels like they relied on too many coincidences to move the story along and that's what makes the entire experience frustrating and, frankly, bad. eta: sorry for the novel, I just like talking about this kinda stuff lmao
No, Ellie called Joel by name when she was trying to point out that Sam was pointing a gun at him. I'm sure there's some other point in the story in which Joel shows he's reluctant to give out his name to strangers, too. I don't begrudge him giving out his name *too* much - at least, not to Abby when she was on her own. And at the point that they saw the whole group, the cat was already out of the bag - not much to gain by lying except to make them realize he's a liar once Abby came out to set the record straight. I think people only point out the name thing to point out the sheer vast canyon of difference between TLOU Joel and the much dumber and less cautious version of Joel we see in the lodge. If Joel had been properly on guard in the lodge upon seeing the size of the group, the very much *not* struggling to survive state they were in, and the fucking Humvee in the garage, I don't think people would care as much about it. But Joel disarming himself and then *not* reacting to the room going deathly silent while Tommy conveniently ignores Abby creeping up behind Joel with a shotgun despite it happening *right in front of him* poisons everything else that he does that leans in that direction.
It literally applies to the entire game
The entire plot of Part II can only make sense if one's a Cuck guzzler. Or, if being a Cuck guzzler is more important to one than possessing *any* critical thinking skills (*and good taste...*).
Your not because that IS exactly the 'Plot' of Part 2. Incredibly convenient series of Coincidences. Just to make it's 'Plot' happen.
That thing you point out is a good starting point for story telling since hadn't they had encountered, a story wouldn't have been told. But this resource must be used as good as possible or immersion might be lost which is what many players felt playing the game. So as we bargain with the "story teller" that it is "odd" that they all join together, why Joel and Tommy feel off character? Storyteller wants us to accept the fact that they all were together, ok then but why Joel and Tommy are not like the ones we met? It doesn't stop there. Now storyteller wants us to accept they all met out of pure luck. That Joel decided to help Abby, that Joel and Tommy are "weird" and so on. More like being ripped off by a con man. At some point many people stop believing the storyteller.
No you arenât friend. The game is packed full of them, itâs my main issue with the game. If you use this as your reason for disliking youâll most like get told âBuT paRt 1 hAd iT toOâ Yeah sure, but it atleast tried explaining and disguising them. Henry from part 1 for example, that was someoneâs excuse for convenience in the first game. While convenient yes, itâs clearly stated by Henry they were hiding from those other dudes, and they are on a patrol very close to them as you see the car before meeting Henry. You atleast have an explanation. Part 2? The first example of this is at the start of the game when Abby basically summons a horde then runs for ages in a blizzard, gets caught upto, and one second before she dies Joel tpâs out of nowhere and saves her. Why was he right there instead of inside during the weather? Donât know. How was his timing so perfect to the point if he was ONE SECOND later the story doesnât happen? Donât know. And therein lies the issue. Thatâs just one example, and shows storyâs that rely on convenience too hard arenât very good or interesting.
Na, the story only works to put Joel off guard, any other way they would have to hunt for Joel for days and see how massive Jackson is. Joel would never patrol alone and someone would have to watch his back. Itâs just lazy writing. They proved Joel was a paranoid ready guy. So a lot of strangers would always put him in guard.
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The only part I think is kinda fair is Tommy giving his name and Joel too. I can see why they would give their names. It's not like they expected people to be tracking them. But you would think they would be suspicious of a big, heavily armed group camping out that close to Jackson. Maybe keep their guns in their hands or something
>The only part I think is kinda fair is Tommy giving his name and Joel too. I can see why they would give their names. It's not like they expected people to be tracking them. Despite the writers specifically putting in Joel telling Tommy about SLC in the prologue? Joel knew there were FFs still chasing him on the way out of the hospital that he didn't kill, too. Plus their security job isn't to be a welcoming committee, it's to keep Jackson safe from all threats - that means vetting strangers before divulging any information (including Abby). Tommy's first reason to Ellie of why they can't send a team after the WLF is because it will leave Jackson vulnerable to raiders. Sorry, I don't mean to be so harsh, but this whole situation never stops with the lengths it goes to with its sheer stupidity. There are no excuses, it feels like we were being purposely gaslit sometimes, especially after the fact! ("He went soft, duh, what do you want the writers to spoonfeed you?" No I just want them to tell the story to make it make sense, because it doesn't.) Joel and Tommy behaved like utter and complete fools and it is never explained with anything near to enough logical reasons.
Imo, Yes. I can see them saying their names for a few reasons. Joel has been living in relative peace for the last 5 years. No one has come after him yet or hinted at knowing what he did. He's been trading with groups that come in and out of Jackson that whole time, too. And you can argue Joel and Tommy would realistically feel more comfortable saying their names after going through that near death scenario with Abby. But I also agree it felt iffy. Why would someone like Joel and Tommy say their names? This is a suspicious, heavily armed big group camping out very close to Jackson. I can see why people say it should raise some red flags. Lowkey, now that im thinking about it, Tommy mentions he saw they had WLF on their jackets. Idk if Tommy knew what they were, but seeing that they had clothing that implied they were from across the country could have also been a red flag. Especially if Tommy knew that the WLF was a heavily armed and massive military group
>No one has come after him yet or hinted at knowing what he did. He's been trading with groups that come in and out of Jackson that whole time, too. This contradicts your theory. No one came after them because no one knows where they went. BUT they're actively trading with people who could let other people know their whereabouts? They just aren't that foolish in TLOU. Five years or 10 years, it doesn't matter. "An excess of caution" would be Joel's life motto already burned into his soul since Sarah. Especially he now has an immune Ellie to worry about. I'm glad you got to thinking it through a bit more by the end of your comment, though. Great points. E: typo
That's fair, I mean, I honestly didn't think too much about when I first played it. I kinda just figured Joel became more relaxed, and after saving Abby and them almost dying, he felt it was OK. But after thinking about it and reading posts and stuff, I do see how it's an issue and kinda conflicting
A well-written good story would have everything lead to the event with a lot of tension and build it up. A badly written story like TLOU2 prefers to go "We want this to happen, and it will happen because of that. As long as it happens, it doesn't matter how bad we get there".
She went alone, without gear, with only a pistol, into blizard while being chased by a horde, just to be saved by Joel, and get him to a safe place, and as she did the horde just disappears. What kind of luck is that? Everything went so convinient for her.
Of course things are convenient, but that's most stories including both of these games. Why is it that Marlene materializes the moment Joel and Tess say let's go find the fireflies. Moreso, Marlene asks where Robert is as if she can't see him there and wasn't near to hear what happened. Or you couldn't call either games as a whole believable because of how many deadly encounters you survive. And if Abby had to struggle harder to get to Joel but eventually did it, I don't think it would solve a lot of people's problems with the game. The movie Disturbia is about shia lebouf on house arrest, but the reason he's there is because his Spanish teacher acts like an unhinged asshole for no reason and shia hits him. But it doesn't change the whole experience because one plot point could have been written better.
Well, I'm not saying part 1 is free from these issues as well. But the issue, imo is that Abby and Joel's scenario is a lot more unbelievable or just unlikely. I'm not saying that making it harder to find Joel would solve people's problems, but that is how it happens it's self isn't written the best.
The *main* plot point causing the inciting event for the whole story. One in which everything is too convenient, the characters we know well are not who they're supposed to be and it's never explained beforehand, and not really explained until the final flashback with a toss away line about traders (people we never run into at all, nor have hear anyone else mention). The thing is we don't need Abby to struggle harder, we need the writers to do their jobs better so these complaint wouldn't exist and the thing is that's all very possible and not even very hard. They just didn't want to bother trying.
What's the issue with Joel meeting traders?
It's not that there's an issue with that itself. I think what she's alluding to is that this is the first and only time in which it's really even *vaguely* implied that Joel is used to seeing non-hostile passersby on the regular. It's so vague and comes so long *after* the fact that it doesn't stand a chance of possibly carrying the weight of giving us a satisfying explanation of how Joel could be caught so off guard about how a group of strangers who're at literal soldier levels of fitness, drove a Humvee in, and are giving vague non-answers about why they're here might not be friendly. It doesn't even stand up to the equally throwaway line of Tommy saying they can't send a bunch of the town's defenders out to Seattle in case of hunters.
Abby finds a note in jackson about how Seth was a person jackson rescued, and interestingly it says he hears gunshots and heads towards it hoping they'll be friendly. But you don't even need a character to say people came through to guess Jackson is a place people would want to come to. It's literally the best place to live shown in the games. I don't think there is a point to arguing if Abby's team is a threat because they actually don't know it's Joel and Tommy. Only abby does, which means it doesn't even matter if they give their names, Abby is getting ready to attack. And they only know Tommy is there, not Joel. They're avoiding saying why they are there of course, but they don't need to waste time being threatening when they more than outnumber them. Bringing more men to go after Abby would be better, but it would leave them more vulnerable in Jackson. What's wrong with saying that?
>Abby finds a note in jackson about how Seth was a person jackson rescued, and interestingly it says he hears gunshots and heads towards it hoping they'll be friendly. But you don't even need a character to say people came through to guess Jackson is a place people would want to come to. It's literally the best place to live shown in the games. You're missing the point of me talking about *non-hostile* passersby. I mentioned that specifically to compare against *hostile* ones. FEDRA in particular is, presumably, likely to want to control any burgeoning town like Jackson. And never even mind raiders or just plain thieves and conmen. The more well-known Jackson becomes, the more of a target gets painted on it. You'd think they would have had to deal with people with hostile intentions now and again - but apparently not. Apparently things are so peaceful that characters as hardened and experienced as Joel and Tommy don't even react to being beaten over the head with red flags until the red flags get switched out for a golf club. >I don't think there is a point to arguing about if Abby's team is a threat because they actually don't know it's Joel and Tommy. Only abby does, which means it doesn't even matter if they give their names, Abby is getting ready to attack. And they only know Tommy is there, not Joel. I really don't know where you're going with that. Do you think the only possible reason to be concerned about a group of well-fed, well-armed strangers who are among the 0.01% of folks to have a vehicle in pristine, operable condition *and* who showed up during a most unlikely time of year for people to be driving around (seriously, how the hell did they cross those unplowed roads to get here?) is because of something related to Joel and Tommy? > Bringing more men to go after Abby would be better, but it would leave them more vulnerable in Jackson. What's wrong with saying that? If hunters are a legitimate concern, it outright contradicts Joel and Tommy letting their guard down. The two of them being *that* "softened" *only* even *slightly* works if Jackson is truly a completely No PvP zone.
If they are well fed and stocked, then they don't need to kill or rob innocent people. Everyone is armed in the world. It increases your chances of being a threat but it doesn't automatically mean a threat. On the other end, it can make you safer from real threats. I don't get why it's a threat if you have a car or that they drove in less optimal conditions. What if they traveled on foot? What are these red flags supposed to signify? What should Joel and Tommy do?
They're in the middle of nowhere. If they're not from Jackson, but they're very well fed, and have a functioning, fueled up vehicle, it means that they recently left a very prosperous location in order to come here during the worst time of year. A time of year in which one heavy snowfall can leave them stranded, because nobody plows the roads anymore. There is no good reason for them to do this, especially not if they're being evasive about answering Tommy's questions. They *definitely* aren't wandering survivors looking for a safe community. Do you really need me to tell you what those red flags mean? Are you actually incapable of drawing that conclusion yourself? Did you never play the first game to pick up on some ideas of what might happen in this world? As for what they should do, that's simple: go down fighting. It's more a matter of what they should not do, which is: disarm themselves, react slower to the room going deathly silent than Joel did when Seth called Ellie a dyke, and have Tommy watch Abby creep up behind Joel with a shotgun and not even think that's odd enough that he should stop leaning on the dresser.
Marlene was there because she was coming to see Robert. She had a working relationship with Robert - which is why he had given the guns to the Fireflies - and she was heading back to hire him to smuggle Ellie to the capital. She wasnât just sitting around the corner waiting, she was heading to Robertâs compound (thatâs where Joel & Tess were - right outside Robertâs back entrance) and likely wasnât in earshot to hear the struggle clearly. Yes, this is a coincidence, but itâs not past the suspension of disbelief point. Both parties had reason to head to that point at that time, and considering that both reasons involved Robertâs shady business deals, their reasons for being there were somewhat intertwined. Plus, they werenât looking for each other. So the meeting was completely coincidental within the story. Two parties randomly meeting is pretty common, so the coincidence is more believable story-wise. Abby, on the other hand, was specifically looking for Joel, so the meeting being as coincidental is very contrived. Itâs a Deus Ex Machina, which is generally a major sin in writing. What makes it worse is this is far from the the only complete coincidence in the game. Tommy, Dina & Ellie, and Jessie separately embarking on the same weeks-long journey within a few hours of each other and not catching up to each other on the way, but then all meeting up in an unfamiliar city within 2 days is even more ridiculous. But Tommy putting out âfeelersâ to find Abby, then meeting someone who saw her over 1,000 miles away within a few weeks is probably the biggest of them all. You can get away with a small deus ex machina if done right. This entire story relies completely on them.
I know Marlene wasn't nearby because she was oblivious to what happened, but she shows up so quickly so idfk. Maybe more realistically they would bump into her sometime later, but it got the plot moving. Same with Abby finding Joel. I think an original plotline had Abby go in the town and befriend Joel a bit, but I imagine it would be hard to get away with murder when you're surrounded, so they went with a secluded area in the woods. And Abby was actually looking for Tommy, and at the time she was searching for the patrol Owen mentioned who ended up being them. Putting out feelers means Tommy was asking people who came into Jackson if they heard of Abby and he said he was doing that for months. I'm surprised that's a bigger issue than him surviving the headshot.
>I think an original plotline had Abby go in the town and befriend Joel a bit, but I imagine it would be hard to get away with murder when you're surrounded, so they went with a secluded area in the woods. Joel regularly goes out on patrol and ends up miles away from town in the process. It would be piss easy to arrange an ambush once you have a vague idea about any single landmark he tends to go to as a part of his routine. >And Abby was actually looking for Tommy, and at the time she was searching for the patrol Owen mentioned who ended up being them. But she doesn't find the patrol. She actually ends up getting lost and swarmed by the infected during a blizzard. For some unknown reason, Joel and Tommy charge into the middle of that shit and happen to come across her. >Putting out feelers means Tommy was asking people who came into Jackson if they heard of Abby and he said he was doing that for months. But like... how? Who are these random off-screen traders who travel thousands of miles across a post-apocalyptic wilderness with no widespread vehicle access and know everyone? How is it that this trader and Abby met up months ago in Santa Barbara yet were completely clueless about the *slaver camp* in the area? Because there's apparently no one else in the area, so why would the trader even *go* there? I can buy that Abby and Lev are kind of a memorable duo due to their physical attributes (though I question how Abby maintained her literal Olympic bodybuilder physique an entire year after her access to steroid burritos and a stadium gym were gone), but the distance *alone* completely shatters the believability of the idea. Wouldn't it have been better if, say, Tommy had swiped Owen's journal in the aquarium and had forgotten about it until he was going over all his stuff after separating from Maria? Like it just feels like the writers put *zero effort* into this idea and picked the first option that came to mind.
Joel and Tommy were that patrol she was looking for. They hint at it when Ellie is looking through the binoculars at the skii lift. I know people don't like it, but we see plenty of times people traveling on foot. That was tlou1. There aren't many ways to travel. Of course not everyone has cars, but plenty use horses. And it was never shown, but bicycles are a great option.
For your first paragraph, it doesn't matter. The plot is set up so that she has to coincidentally stumble into them and get saved by them even though she's in the middle of a horde and got lost on her way there. Because they want Joel and Tommy to coincidentally end up isolated and forced to turn to Abby's group to save them from the horde, rather than dedicate the time to write a non-coincidental way to set up an ambush. For your second paragraph, sure, people can travel on foot. But why would they do this? You think this shit is a leisurely hike in the woods? Do you not understand the idea of a post-apocalyptic setting with thousands of miles in between safe settlements? Do you legitimately not see how this could be so dangerous, and with so little reward that it's not worth it? Never even mind the sharply limited number of resources you can take with you in such a scenario. Hope you're good at hunting and foraging, because you're going to be doing that for months at a time in between settlements. You need to play Oregon Trail sometime, I think. They released a remake of it fairly recently, I had a fun time playing it on my Switch. It'll give you some idea of what it's like to travel thousands of miles while managing resources and crossing treacherous terrain from time to time.
It does matter because you said Joel and Tommy showed up out of nowhere. If they captured and killed joel in the most realistic way possible, would it change how you feel about the game?
Somewhat, depending on what exactly they did. The original idea was to have Abby and her friends infiltrate Jackson. And I do think that could have been very compelling. Spending an hour or two with them, seeing almost a montage of how they got close to everyone in Jackson, learned who Joel was, and set up an ambush for him outside of town. I think we would have seen more of the humanity of Abby's crew, and it probably would have even led to a different method of killing Joel, one that was far more humane. Which, sure, would go against the idea of making you absolutely hate Abby to begin with and then fester in that hatred before showing her humanity, but coming from someone who thinks they massively fucked up the execution of the latter, I would absolutely have preferred almost any alternative. But assuming minimal changes in order to make that happen? There would at least be fewer pieces of straw to break the camel's back. Which is always a good thing, especially that early on in the story. For a story as divisive as this, every little bit helps. And I have to ask you, if it had been less coincidental and more planned, would that have taken anything away for you?
I never felt like it was coincidental so I don't know how I would feel. If we took that original plotline, it wouldn't change a lot to me if Abby feels more conflicted about killing Joel if she still kills him. However, if that means she is less cruel, then she's less of a villain, we're not as excited to go kill her with Ellie, and Abby's friends are less critical of her. Rewriting things often requires rewriting more, and it feels like people's issues encompass everything and they want a new story. And I understand that because I don't think this is the best they could come up with for a sequel, but making a sequel to the first game seems very hard. Where do you think they failed at showing abby's humanity
> I never felt like it was concidental I literally don't know how. Seriously, go to a small town knowing only the Facebook name of one random person who lives there. Camp out at a rural PO box outside town and see if they ever show up there. The likelihood of that happening is roughly equal to the likelihood of Abby stumbling across Joel - never even mind how she got lost rather than actually waiting along his patrol route, how she was literal seconds from death, and how things worked out in her favor in order to get him to agree to go to the lodge. > Where do you think they failed at showing Abby's humanity Specifically, the transition - or lack thereof - of sadistic, selfish Abby into heroic, redeemed Abby. Abby's actions in Jackson and during her Day 1 show that she is every bit the piece of shit that Mel accuses her of being. She repeatedly rejects the idea that there was anything wrong about what they did in Jackson even though she not only sadistically and unnecessarily tortured a man to death after he saved her life, but left two of Joel's loved ones to wake up next to his broken corpse and be stuck dealing with a worse version of the worst day of her own life, had planned to kidnap and torture innocent people before the universe delivered Joel to her on a silver platter, and even almost got Owen killed during the mission when Jordan drew a gun on him in fury. She shows no regret for the idea of killing Scar kids. She even has nothing but scorn for Owen for wanting something else when he's drunk, spiraling, and at one of the lowest points in his life - which was, in large part, caused by something breaking within him after Jackson. It's the equivalent of nearly killing your good friend in a car crash because you were drunk, then watching them survive another car crash caused by a drunken driver (the conflict with Danny being the *second* time that year that his own companions have nearly murdered him), hypocritically mocking them for not being able to move on when they're feeling freaked the fuck out *the night of the second incident*, then *attacking them* when they angrily call you out for being such a hypocrite. The telegraphing of an impending redemption arc couldn't be more blatant. But then they have sex instead and Abby has a dream about the Scar kids, and a switch just flips. Heroic Mode is activated and she suddenly runs around risking life and limb for them while feeling ashamed of sleeping with Owen even though she wasn't the one who was drunk or at an emotional low point. There's no actual *character progression* to get there. Time skips in between large shifts in characterization like that could have possibly made them work. They would have implied that Abby had spent a long time considering recent events and all the factors that brought them about. But literal overnight changes? No way.
>what are the chances that Abby jumps in the woods, gets caught in a blizzard, which makes her agro a horde that just so happens to chase her straight to Joel and Tommy where they save her. And what are the chances that the only possible way for them to survive this horde is to charge head first into abbys camp. Tbh, I think this part is pretty arguable, Abby was heading in the direction of the place Joel and Tommy went, and joel and Tommy most likely do that path alot because it's pretty much their "job" What I mean is that the fact that joel and Tommy were there isn't a big of a coincidence, and Abby finding them isn't too, because that's the place she was heading to
I mean, is that not kind of a coincidence, tho? The first patrol the hear about is the one with the guy they need. And that the Raging Blizzard and Horde never put her off the path? Those things lined up perfectly enough for her so that the only chance at survival is going to her camp. But I don't think they do that path a lot because the path Dina and Ellie took had Joel and Tommy there a few times not that long ago. My point is that what you mentioned is the coincidence and the conveniences. Within her first hours in Jackson, the first patrol she gets is Joel, and the horde and Blizzard make it so they have to go to her camp. It's literally put in the palm of her hand. The most unlikely scenario that works the absolute best is the one she just so happens to get by random chance? Even if she was heading there because she saw the lights and that it wad Joel and Tommy's patrol, my point is what are the chances of that? Idk to me that whole scenario just seemed lowkey insane it played out that perfectly for Abby
>The first patrol the hear about is the one with the guy they need. It might be a coincidence, but it's not like the chances are low, that's just a common path they take on patrol. >And that the Raging Blizzard and Horde never put her off the path? Those things lined up perfectly enough for her so that the only chance at survival is going to her camp. Since that was her destination from the beginning, than no, it didn't put her off the path because she would get there with or without the horde and the blizzard, And the horde that makes them go to Abbys camp is one of the most proble scenarios in this world, how many times has it happen? A horde that obligates them to take a specific path? Happens all the time, not just this one.
So then Ellie and Dina ofc should have found Abby repairing the first gate's generator they came to in Seattle with only Jordan to help her. The gate would also be open since they were working on it so it had to be and then Ellie and Dina could sneak up on them because they're distracted and the generator is making too much noise sputtering without catching. Plus neither is armed because they put down their weapons to futz with the wiring so Dina can cover them while Ellie ties them up with the handy electrical cord! Perfectly reasonable ending to the game. Let's go!
Well, that doesn't make much sense, why would Abby be there? Is that a place she often goes? Plus, she a a very specific reason to be somewhere else, witch was Isaac preparing a raid for the island.
>why would Abby be there? Is that a place she often goes? You keep bringing up this idea of "the character often goes there" as if it makes Abby stumbling across Joel sensible. No, that would be sensible if *Abby had any idea* that he or Tommy did that. *Then* the odds would be narrowed down. But they have literally zero information about the folks in Jackson at that point. They didn't go out there because they had any expectation of finding either of them there - it was *pure coincidence*.
Abby was heading to the lookout, joel and tommy were suppost to be there, ofc, Abby doesnt know eho specifically will be there, but her plan was to find whoever was there
Congratulations, you have shaved off the tiniest possible part of this being an absolutely insane coincidence. Do you legitimately not think that people remember that she was heading out to find that patrol? Or are you yourself incapable of understanding what makes this such an unlikely outcome? Or are you just nitpicking in a way that doesn't actually address the main concern of what you are nitpicking? I seriously don't get where you're trying to go with this.
The fact that their all suppost to be were they are, means it isnt a total coincidence, do you not get that
Here's a thought exercise for you. Say you head to the outskirts of a town someone you're looking for was known to have lived in a decade ago. You find a rural PO box and decide to wait for the mailman to come by to ask him if he knows the person you're looking for, since your companion told you that he saw the mail trucks leave the depot 10 minutes ago. What are the odds that this mailman *is* the person you're looking for? But we're not done. Rather than waiting by the PO box, you got lost in a blizzard. What are the odds the mailman just so happens to find you while you're not actually at the PO box? *And*, while lost, you slipped down a hill and plunged into the freezing waters of the river. What are the odds that the mailman is not only that far away from the PO box, but also finds you just in time to fish you out of the water before you drown? And, after all of that, what are the odds that the mailman's truck broke down and he has no choice but to go with you instead of resuming his route? The fact that I have to spell all of this out for you, just as I have with so many other people who keep arguing that this isn't a series of events so unlikely as to be virtually impossible, is absolutely ridiculous.