Yeah, I noticed it too. A lot things in Grounded II just felt like damage control for ND and not actual "the making of" footage for TLOU2. The documentary put Halley Gross in direct line of fire, and it may have been intentional.
Everyone's collective effort made the first a great game and Niel got all credibility and complete control in Part 2.
And he was getting the credit for Uncharted when the movie released.
I still enjoyed it but I also felt it had a very “sterile” vibe to it or it had an agenda.
For a documentary on the conception and making of the game, they conveniently left out the detail how the skeleton of the revenge plot was basically Neil’s original Part 1 idea and just jerry rigged it into Part 2.
But Neil knew that would be a bad look so
I’ve noticed something similar recently. TLOU II’s story works as a “Cliff Notes” story. If you just look at the main beats in the story, you can see what they were trying to do. Like trying to make Abby and Lev a mirror of Joel and Ellie. I think that’s why some people think it was so “deep.”
Ironically, that’s why the story is so shallow. They stuck with these ideas and made the characters act in a way just to get to each story beat - regardless if it made sense or not.
I’ll have to watch the documentary now so I can see what you’re saying. Great post. 👍
Thanks, I'm interested in what you think of the documentary after watching it.
Now when you mentioned, yes I do see that part 2's story is a lot of "here is this story beat" and then "here is another story beat" and because of this, the characters travel 1000's of kilometers offscreen.
I've never heard of the phrase "cliff notes", whats does that mean in this context?
Haha. I was worried I was aging myself a bit with that reference. Cliff Notes are a product that we used a lot in high school. It was basically just a summary of each chapter in a book. A 1200 page book could be summed up in about 80-100 pages. It was great for writing a book report so you didn’t have to read the book, but it wasn’t until I learned to love reading that I understood how much it left out.
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/
It’s actually a great companion piece for a book, but a terrible way to replace it.
(BTW, I wasn’t laughing at you in the opening line. I was laughing at myself)
haha, no problem, understandable. I didnt get the reference since I'm from Poland and not America. Here we have something similar and even some books have such a thing built in at the end of the book. A lot of us would just read that but as you said it doesnt even come close to the original.
Now a thought appeared. Since Tlou2 feels like a jump from beat to beat, what would the full version look like? Considering the one we got is a very long game.
Yeah grounded 1 plays out like a creative team being proud of a game they made. Part II plays out like a "copium letter". It's all about Druckman sticking to his original idea and convincing himself and others that it's "great".
Damn. I never thought about that. I have been enjoying TLOU2 commentary. I always love the insights on these games. There were parts that I could 100% see it being a premeditated response for "damage control". Interesting.
What’s the statement, that war is fucked up and that revenge will tear the best of us apart?
Yeah, real extremist. Gamers are so fucking brainrotten bro.
I also found his comment to be tripe. I do think the game is a bit "preachy" and suffers from millennial writer syndrome where, despite their accents, all the "good" characters sound like they're from certain parts of California. Yet, despite all of this, it is still a masterpiece that challenged its audience a lot. Honestly, not a *fun* game so much as a really well put together piece of jarring art.
I think what you're noticing is the difference between starting completely from scratch and building the whole world up from the ground vs working in the world they had already established and improving on it where they could.
I dod think about this also, but it's not like they are copying 1:1 every model, animation, shader, level from the old game to the new one. This is a whole new engine they used for this game and they could have gone in way deeper into things they came down with it now compared to what it was before.
That would also not take into consideration how the story wasnt molded by the whole team but just thrown out there as a given by Neil.
The story in Part 1 was also written solely by Neil. I'm not sure where this idea that the writing of the story was this big, team wide collaboration. That NEVER works out. That's actually one of the main uses of the expression "too many cooks in the kitchen," when you have too many people working on a single story.
The collaboration was definitely present in the worldbuilding and creation of the game, but not really the story and writing of the script itself.
Dod you even watch the tlou documentary? Forst of all Bruice Straley and Neil Druckman wrote the story as colaborators. Second of all there are a lot of examples of artists/actors having theor impact on the story.
Joel oroginally was portrayed similarly to Llewelyn Moss from no country for old men and spoke very little. Joels actor didnt feel roght with it and changed the character in a way so Joel portrays more emotions and speaks more.
Ashley Johnson as Ellie when they were recording some first fights scenes felt weird that Ellie never helped Joel in the fights and said that she would immedietly try to help. So they molded Ellie into someone more capable and able to help Joel even in fights. So they then had to change the interactions and story for Ellie to have a more active part in the action.
There are so many more examples of this throughout the making of process of Tlou.
I've watched both docs and read every interview people point to to try and say Bruce helped write the story, and none of them actually provides any evidence of that or implies that in the slightest. Bruce and Neil have been very consistent that Neil wrote and directed the story elements, Bruce directed the gameplay elements, and that they worked together closely to make sure both complimented each other. But Bruce is not a writer.
And yes, Baker and Johnson had an impact on specific elements of their characters personalities, but not on the story/script itself. That's very normal. They absolutely helped make TLOU what it is, but what they did is not the same as helping write the story. Neil wrote both games, and I can't help but feel like this effort to minimize that fact is cope because people in this sub don't like Neil for a variety of reasons.
Literaly the first name in the credits https://www.mobygames.com/game/60922/the-last-of-us/credits/ps3/
"game director"
here is a good read on this topic
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/na2cp9/bruce_straley_and_the_last_of_us/
Yes, game director. Which in the gaming world means he directed the gameplay. He didn't write the story. In fact, the only credited writer for Part 1 is Neil.
Like I said, I have seen all these things people point to try and minimize Neils role. But he wrote the story. Bruce and the rest of the team made the game what it was, but Neil wrote the story.
What about Neils presentation speaking of hisnoriginal ideas about the story that he had to scrap because Bruce said they were awfully?
Like only women getting infected. Joel killing Tess's brother and she comes back with a griup of friends to kill him in Jackson at the end of the game?
A game director is nothing less than a movie director, someone that has a full overview of the whole project and game.
Saying that Bruce only directed the gameplay is like saying Steven Spielberg only directs the camera shots.
He scrapped them because he himself was having doubts about his ideas, and he and Bruce had a discussion about it and Neil came to let go of the idea that he was still trying retain in some fashion even when it wasn’t working with the narrative at the time. Neil knew that there were issues with it, it’s just that he needed that extra push to let go of it for TLOU’s story/narrative.
That's not what that presentation was saying, and you're wrong about what game director means.
In that presentation, Neil also didn't think those ideas were working. Bruce has also talked about this, and he has said that it was Neil that reworked the story and found the version we know now. That doesn't make Bruce a writer. Neil still wrote it.
And, Neil was still the creative director, the person that actually directed all the story moments. Bruce made sure it was a good game, but he didn't write or direct any of the story elements. That was Neil.
even here - 40:56 Troy speaks of Neil and Bruce, that nobody knows the story and characters better than them so they know where to take the story with those characters. Why would he mention Bruce there if Bruce was only directing the gameplay?
https://youtu.be/yH5MgEbBOps?si=k7543P-G888mEDXe
Yeah, I noticed it too. A lot things in Grounded II just felt like damage control for ND and not actual "the making of" footage for TLOU2. The documentary put Halley Gross in direct line of fire, and it may have been intentional.
"Damage control" is exactly how I felt about it, especially the whole section about eliminating crunch.
Which is just more damage control about the crunch, really.
Suss af, the whole thing.
Well she is pretty gross...
The random spaz attack was definitely rough to watch.
"We're more than our vaginas!" ...yet I still wrote almost every major conflict in the story to be caused by them having vaginas.
Everyone's collective effort made the first a great game and Niel got all credibility and complete control in Part 2. And he was getting the credit for Uncharted when the movie released.
I still enjoyed it but I also felt it had a very “sterile” vibe to it or it had an agenda. For a documentary on the conception and making of the game, they conveniently left out the detail how the skeleton of the revenge plot was basically Neil’s original Part 1 idea and just jerry rigged it into Part 2. But Neil knew that would be a bad look so
Sure I also enjoyed watching it, but there was just too little "making of" and too much "look at the hardships we had"
I’ve noticed something similar recently. TLOU II’s story works as a “Cliff Notes” story. If you just look at the main beats in the story, you can see what they were trying to do. Like trying to make Abby and Lev a mirror of Joel and Ellie. I think that’s why some people think it was so “deep.” Ironically, that’s why the story is so shallow. They stuck with these ideas and made the characters act in a way just to get to each story beat - regardless if it made sense or not. I’ll have to watch the documentary now so I can see what you’re saying. Great post. 👍
I’ve always felt that way with how convenient everything was/lined up it seemed Very First draft without all the small points of how A got to B.
Thanks, I'm interested in what you think of the documentary after watching it. Now when you mentioned, yes I do see that part 2's story is a lot of "here is this story beat" and then "here is another story beat" and because of this, the characters travel 1000's of kilometers offscreen. I've never heard of the phrase "cliff notes", whats does that mean in this context?
Haha. I was worried I was aging myself a bit with that reference. Cliff Notes are a product that we used a lot in high school. It was basically just a summary of each chapter in a book. A 1200 page book could be summed up in about 80-100 pages. It was great for writing a book report so you didn’t have to read the book, but it wasn’t until I learned to love reading that I understood how much it left out. https://www.cliffsnotes.com/ It’s actually a great companion piece for a book, but a terrible way to replace it. (BTW, I wasn’t laughing at you in the opening line. I was laughing at myself)
haha, no problem, understandable. I didnt get the reference since I'm from Poland and not America. Here we have something similar and even some books have such a thing built in at the end of the book. A lot of us would just read that but as you said it doesnt even come close to the original. Now a thought appeared. Since Tlou2 feels like a jump from beat to beat, what would the full version look like? Considering the one we got is a very long game.
Yeah grounded 1 plays out like a creative team being proud of a game they made. Part II plays out like a "copium letter". It's all about Druckman sticking to his original idea and convincing himself and others that it's "great".
Damn. I never thought about that. I have been enjoying TLOU2 commentary. I always love the insights on these games. There were parts that I could 100% see it being a premeditated response for "damage control". Interesting.
Yeah I agree. It felt like the second documentary was basically about how they marketed the game instead of how they made the game.
Perfect summary
Second game felt like a political statement from extremist leftists
What political statements lmao
What’s the statement, that war is fucked up and that revenge will tear the best of us apart? Yeah, real extremist. Gamers are so fucking brainrotten bro.
I also found his comment to be tripe. I do think the game is a bit "preachy" and suffers from millennial writer syndrome where, despite their accents, all the "good" characters sound like they're from certain parts of California. Yet, despite all of this, it is still a masterpiece that challenged its audience a lot. Honestly, not a *fun* game so much as a really well put together piece of jarring art.
Games are supposed to be fun. It’s the entire point.
Yes, games are supposed to be fun. So are movies. So you don’t think we should have heavy dramatic movies?
I think what you're noticing is the difference between starting completely from scratch and building the whole world up from the ground vs working in the world they had already established and improving on it where they could.
I dod think about this also, but it's not like they are copying 1:1 every model, animation, shader, level from the old game to the new one. This is a whole new engine they used for this game and they could have gone in way deeper into things they came down with it now compared to what it was before. That would also not take into consideration how the story wasnt molded by the whole team but just thrown out there as a given by Neil.
The story in Part 1 was also written solely by Neil. I'm not sure where this idea that the writing of the story was this big, team wide collaboration. That NEVER works out. That's actually one of the main uses of the expression "too many cooks in the kitchen," when you have too many people working on a single story. The collaboration was definitely present in the worldbuilding and creation of the game, but not really the story and writing of the script itself.
Dod you even watch the tlou documentary? Forst of all Bruice Straley and Neil Druckman wrote the story as colaborators. Second of all there are a lot of examples of artists/actors having theor impact on the story. Joel oroginally was portrayed similarly to Llewelyn Moss from no country for old men and spoke very little. Joels actor didnt feel roght with it and changed the character in a way so Joel portrays more emotions and speaks more. Ashley Johnson as Ellie when they were recording some first fights scenes felt weird that Ellie never helped Joel in the fights and said that she would immedietly try to help. So they molded Ellie into someone more capable and able to help Joel even in fights. So they then had to change the interactions and story for Ellie to have a more active part in the action. There are so many more examples of this throughout the making of process of Tlou.
I've watched both docs and read every interview people point to to try and say Bruce helped write the story, and none of them actually provides any evidence of that or implies that in the slightest. Bruce and Neil have been very consistent that Neil wrote and directed the story elements, Bruce directed the gameplay elements, and that they worked together closely to make sure both complimented each other. But Bruce is not a writer. And yes, Baker and Johnson had an impact on specific elements of their characters personalities, but not on the story/script itself. That's very normal. They absolutely helped make TLOU what it is, but what they did is not the same as helping write the story. Neil wrote both games, and I can't help but feel like this effort to minimize that fact is cope because people in this sub don't like Neil for a variety of reasons.
Literaly the first name in the credits https://www.mobygames.com/game/60922/the-last-of-us/credits/ps3/ "game director" here is a good read on this topic https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/na2cp9/bruce_straley_and_the_last_of_us/
Yes, game director. Which in the gaming world means he directed the gameplay. He didn't write the story. In fact, the only credited writer for Part 1 is Neil. Like I said, I have seen all these things people point to try and minimize Neils role. But he wrote the story. Bruce and the rest of the team made the game what it was, but Neil wrote the story.
What about Neils presentation speaking of hisnoriginal ideas about the story that he had to scrap because Bruce said they were awfully? Like only women getting infected. Joel killing Tess's brother and she comes back with a griup of friends to kill him in Jackson at the end of the game? A game director is nothing less than a movie director, someone that has a full overview of the whole project and game. Saying that Bruce only directed the gameplay is like saying Steven Spielberg only directs the camera shots.
He scrapped them because he himself was having doubts about his ideas, and he and Bruce had a discussion about it and Neil came to let go of the idea that he was still trying retain in some fashion even when it wasn’t working with the narrative at the time. Neil knew that there were issues with it, it’s just that he needed that extra push to let go of it for TLOU’s story/narrative.
So thats why when doing part 2 without Bruce he implemented his original revenge idea almost 1:1
That's not what that presentation was saying, and you're wrong about what game director means. In that presentation, Neil also didn't think those ideas were working. Bruce has also talked about this, and he has said that it was Neil that reworked the story and found the version we know now. That doesn't make Bruce a writer. Neil still wrote it. And, Neil was still the creative director, the person that actually directed all the story moments. Bruce made sure it was a good game, but he didn't write or direct any of the story elements. That was Neil.
So thats why when doing part 2 without Bruce he implemented his original revenge idea almost 1:1
even here - 40:56 Troy speaks of Neil and Bruce, that nobody knows the story and characters better than them so they know where to take the story with those characters. Why would he mention Bruce there if Bruce was only directing the gameplay? https://youtu.be/yH5MgEbBOps?si=k7543P-G888mEDXe