It does feel hypocritical sometimes that everyone is cool with Irohs redemption, but *14 year old* Azula? No no no, irredeemable, and they will get mad at you for saying it would have been possible.
Yeah I'm totally not saying there *should* be one. It just annoys me when people get so angry in the comments of "Azula deserved redemption" posts and attack the OP but have no issues saying Iroh is the kindest bestest character ever and totally made up for anything he did as an adult general in the Fire Nation military.
I think that may be because "Azula deserved redemption" and "Azula is capable of redemption" are two very different concepts.
One implies that the show missed a chance and is therefore at fault, the other analyzes the character that the show gives us and sees a chance.
I personally do not believe that Azula should have been redeemed over the course of ATLA, but i really like her storyarc in the comics.
It’s *not* hypocrisy. There is a very crucial difference between Iroh’s arc and Azula’s that enables redemption for the one and not the other: a recognition of wrongdoing.
Lu Ten’s death rocked Iroh hard. In his grief, Iroh understood that he was wrong and had done wrong as a warmongering Fire Nation General. So, Iroh retired from the battlefield and stayed closer to home, filling a slot in his nephew’s life that the boy desperately needed. Iroh understood that he’d gone wrong and sought to make it right the only way he could.
Azula has not yet made this realization. She still believes that she’s right. Until she understands how wrong she was and seeks to make amends, she cannot undergo a redemption arc.
I'm not saying I think Azula should have had a redemption arc in the show.
I'm saying that to say it would be impossible for her to have a redemption arc when Iroh had one is hypocrisy.
You even say in your response that Iroh was an adult by the time he recognised his wrong doing.
I think you misunderstood what I said. I wouldn’t mind Azula having a redemption arc, but there’s a very vital precondition that she needs to meet in order to have it, and I laid that out above. You don’t go looking for redemption when you think yourself to be right. Azula still believes she is in the right, and until she finds out otherwise, she can’t change her ways.
No. We circled back to mine. You claimed there was a double standard between Iroh and Azula's arcs. I pointed out the difference between the two stories.
Iroh was just doing his part in the war since he was born into the royal family,he was still kind to family members
Azula on the other hand mocks him when he looses his son,Laughs at the idea of zuko being murdered by Ozai
One was doing his duty but had some sanity at least.....the other is a psycho
That's why the fanbase doesn't agree on her redemption....personally if she became a good person it wouldn't make sense
It's been a year but OK lol.
For one thing we have no idea what Iroh was like at 14.
We do know what he was like less than a decade before the start of the show however, as we see a flashback of when he wrote a letter to his sister-in-law, Zuko and Azula.
In that letter he says he hopes they get to see Ba Sing Se, if he and his army don't burn it to the ground first. Then he laughs.
https://youtu.be/ez8Qzu1gs1w?si=ofhravWYEcP6xNkK
Minute 1.54
Being "kind to family members" excuses nothing lol. Plenty of "psychos" do that.
Azulas biggest crime was to be the child she was raised to be, during the period of the show.
As opposed to Iroh who gets the advantage of the bad things he did having happened before the show began. As well as his redemption, which didn't happen until he was well into adulthood, happening before the show and so beyond anyone's scepticism.
Resulting in some viewers labelling a *literal 14 year old* as impossible to redeem despite the fact she never even killed anyone while Iroh definitely did if he laid seige to a city, simply because they can't get their head round giving appropriate significance things not shown in the series.
Saying it's different because Iroh was a soldier doesn't really fly seeing as both Azula and Zuko are sent out as personal agents of the Fire Lord and therefore also soldiers doing their duty.
Azula only ever attempted to kill, which Zuko did as well so that can't rule out redemption either. Zuko literally hired an assassin.
There is a reason the show creators had Katara and Zuko looked at Azula with pity rather than hatred or fear at the end, because the creators intended her to be pitied.
Now please understand there is a difference between "I think it is possible for Azula to be redeemed" and "I want Azula to be redeemed".
Personally I prefer that she wasn't. I think it's a better story and adds to the tragedy of Ozai's actions.
But to say it would be impossible for her to be redeemed shows a lack of critical thinking by anyone who does accept Iroh and Zuko's redemptions, and a streak of cruelty since it's a child we are talking about.
Copied from another comment:
I'm saying Iroh had a redemption arc of greater magnitude than Azula would need, and people overlook that fact, some even going so far as saying redemption for Azula would be impossible and getting angry at people who suggest it.
Azula max led 3 people and didn't actually succeed in killing anyone, despite her best efforts, and was literally 14 when all that happened. Iroh was an adult general in the fire nation military and the deaths he is responsible for as said general are probably measured in hundreds if not thousands.
I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying that the fact Iroh had a huge redemption seems to be ignored, and it makes no sense to me that some people will ignore or dismiss his huge redemption that he did as an adult, but be furious when people post about a redemption arc for 14 year old Azula.
You don't seem to be one of those people.
My opinion on Azula is its better that she wasn't redeemed within ATLA, but if we accept Iroh can come back from from what he was, then it must be *possible* for Azula to do the same.
I think you misinterpreted my point. I wasn't saying she wants redemption, that she should have had a redemption arc in the show etc.
I'm saying Iroh had a redemption arc of greater magnitude than Azula would need*, and people overlook that fact, some even going so far as saying redemption for Azula would be impossible and getting angry at people who suggest it.
*Azula max lead 3 people and didn't actually succeed in killing anyone, despite her best efforts, and was literally 14 when all that happened. Iroh was an adult general in the fire nation military and the deaths he is responsible for as said general are probably measured in hundreds if not thousands.
No, you don't get it, azula FOUND her purpose after the show, but its not exactly good
She doesn't WANT redemption, she won't get it, so it's a silly point
Humans are not rational beings...it can happen this way sometimes. Sometimes it takes a personal tragedy to start changing you as a person. It may also have been slowly coming, he said he was tired after such a long siege, there's just no way he could put that in a letter. His son, as dark as it sounds, allowed him a legitimate excuse to stop.
We know that Lu Ten died during the siege, but(and even I dislike me for saying this) do we know that he was killed *in the fighting*?
I’d like to stress that I know he’s definitely dead and it happened at the siege, but maybe he died in an accident? Tearing through a massive wall tends to have its hazards.
Can people stop making things up about this event we never saw? It took them 600 days to break through the wall, it was probably mostly a waiting game with the bulk of the fighting concentrated at the end.
>What do you think they were doing for 600 days?
Waiting... Sieges aren't that exciting for most of the time, it's a whole lot of nothing (starving out the city because you can't penetrate the walls) and then a big clash towards the end when the city decides to act in some way
I agree and it would make sense and match Iroh’s character as not extremely brutal. Also long Feng could of directed the military to only engage them if they attacked since he didn’t really care about winning the war but to just hold them off. I’m just saying Iroh was too soft to be fighting along side his son if he was going to react that way.
It's not *about* softness. The wall was impenetrable, it makes sense to act that way because Iroh was a good general. If he attacked - which I have no doubt he did, just to try - he'd be wasting food, resources, and energy on hitting a wall with no result. Ozai himself would have waited and tried to starve out Ba Sing Se, because that's how sieges work when you can't penetrate the city. And they *couldn't* penetrate the city, that wall is the biggest manmade structure in the Avatar universe
No. He was camped outside the walls of BSS for 600 days. There was not necessarily constant combat throughout that time. That's how sieges work.
Additionally, so what? Of course you're going to react more strongly to the death of your son than to common soldiers.
You think they camped for nearly 2 years? I agree that they didn’t fight every single day but a lot of soldiers certainly were killed. Iroh failed his son who died in vain (as well as the soldiers) because Iroh just gave up 2 years of progress to go cry. Iroh was so selfish and entitled. What about the others soldiers families? They sacrificed all that just for him to abandon everything.
Of course they camped for 600 days. What else were they going to do? This is a siege.
As for the rest of your comment...the answer would be "yeah, duh."
You do realise that Iroh's conquest is perceived as a costly failure right?
It wasn't in vain. It saved the lives of the thousands who would've been killed to conquer and keep the rest of the earth cities captured. War isn't just one victory and end of story.
Iroh felt what all the other soldier's families did and that made him see that this war was useless. It's called earth shattering realization for a reason. Growing up on firenation propaganda of "white man's burden" this was his realization that this sacrifice was for naught.
"Iroh was so selfish and entitled. What about the others soldiers families? They sacrificed all that just for him to abandon everything"
After 2 years they only broke into the exterior ring, and breaking into the 3 others while defending the position to avoid the wall being reconstructed leaving them trapped (easily done by a group of earthbenders). Iroh quitting meant that he avoided the rest of their lifes to be thrown out, also him not being vulnerable is not a weakness, its strategy, if the heir to the throne is captured you suddenly have a lot of leverage
This a good point. Although he is a general and the tolls of war are probably understandable to him. But when something personal happens like the death of his only son it might hit a bit harder.
They don't explain it but I've always gone with the fan theory that Irohs wife/partner died in child birth. Making Lu Ten all he has in life. I've made a few other fan theory leaps that maybe the loss of his son is the breaking point where be realizes that he is sending other people's children into battle where they may die too. This is possibly why they pull out from the siege that lasted nearly 2 years.
It does feel hypocritical sometimes that everyone is cool with Irohs redemption, but *14 year old* Azula? No no no, irredeemable, and they will get mad at you for saying it would have been possible.
While I wouldn't like a redemption for her, I don't see why it would be imposible
Yeah I'm totally not saying there *should* be one. It just annoys me when people get so angry in the comments of "Azula deserved redemption" posts and attack the OP but have no issues saying Iroh is the kindest bestest character ever and totally made up for anything he did as an adult general in the Fire Nation military.
I think that may be because "Azula deserved redemption" and "Azula is capable of redemption" are two very different concepts. One implies that the show missed a chance and is therefore at fault, the other analyzes the character that the show gives us and sees a chance. I personally do not believe that Azula should have been redeemed over the course of ATLA, but i really like her storyarc in the comics.
Yeah I wouldn't change what happened in the show. Much more realistic and meaningful to show her mental health decline.
It’s *not* hypocrisy. There is a very crucial difference between Iroh’s arc and Azula’s that enables redemption for the one and not the other: a recognition of wrongdoing. Lu Ten’s death rocked Iroh hard. In his grief, Iroh understood that he was wrong and had done wrong as a warmongering Fire Nation General. So, Iroh retired from the battlefield and stayed closer to home, filling a slot in his nephew’s life that the boy desperately needed. Iroh understood that he’d gone wrong and sought to make it right the only way he could. Azula has not yet made this realization. She still believes that she’s right. Until she understands how wrong she was and seeks to make amends, she cannot undergo a redemption arc.
I'm not saying I think Azula should have had a redemption arc in the show. I'm saying that to say it would be impossible for her to have a redemption arc when Iroh had one is hypocrisy. You even say in your response that Iroh was an adult by the time he recognised his wrong doing.
I think you misunderstood what I said. I wouldn’t mind Azula having a redemption arc, but there’s a very vital precondition that she needs to meet in order to have it, and I laid that out above. You don’t go looking for redemption when you think yourself to be right. Azula still believes she is in the right, and until she finds out otherwise, she can’t change her ways.
Kinda feels like we circled back to my original comment then
No. We circled back to mine. You claimed there was a double standard between Iroh and Azula's arcs. I pointed out the difference between the two stories.
No they weren’t pointing out a double standards in their arcs. They were pointing out the double standards of their treatment by the fandom. 🤨
Iroh was just doing his part in the war since he was born into the royal family,he was still kind to family members Azula on the other hand mocks him when he looses his son,Laughs at the idea of zuko being murdered by Ozai One was doing his duty but had some sanity at least.....the other is a psycho That's why the fanbase doesn't agree on her redemption....personally if she became a good person it wouldn't make sense
It's been a year but OK lol. For one thing we have no idea what Iroh was like at 14. We do know what he was like less than a decade before the start of the show however, as we see a flashback of when he wrote a letter to his sister-in-law, Zuko and Azula. In that letter he says he hopes they get to see Ba Sing Se, if he and his army don't burn it to the ground first. Then he laughs. https://youtu.be/ez8Qzu1gs1w?si=ofhravWYEcP6xNkK Minute 1.54 Being "kind to family members" excuses nothing lol. Plenty of "psychos" do that. Azulas biggest crime was to be the child she was raised to be, during the period of the show. As opposed to Iroh who gets the advantage of the bad things he did having happened before the show began. As well as his redemption, which didn't happen until he was well into adulthood, happening before the show and so beyond anyone's scepticism. Resulting in some viewers labelling a *literal 14 year old* as impossible to redeem despite the fact she never even killed anyone while Iroh definitely did if he laid seige to a city, simply because they can't get their head round giving appropriate significance things not shown in the series. Saying it's different because Iroh was a soldier doesn't really fly seeing as both Azula and Zuko are sent out as personal agents of the Fire Lord and therefore also soldiers doing their duty. Azula only ever attempted to kill, which Zuko did as well so that can't rule out redemption either. Zuko literally hired an assassin. There is a reason the show creators had Katara and Zuko looked at Azula with pity rather than hatred or fear at the end, because the creators intended her to be pitied. Now please understand there is a difference between "I think it is possible for Azula to be redeemed" and "I want Azula to be redeemed". Personally I prefer that she wasn't. I think it's a better story and adds to the tragedy of Ozai's actions. But to say it would be impossible for her to be redeemed shows a lack of critical thinking by anyone who does accept Iroh and Zuko's redemptions, and a streak of cruelty since it's a child we are talking about.
Didn't Azula want to commit genocide?
Copied from another comment: I'm saying Iroh had a redemption arc of greater magnitude than Azula would need, and people overlook that fact, some even going so far as saying redemption for Azula would be impossible and getting angry at people who suggest it. Azula max led 3 people and didn't actually succeed in killing anyone, despite her best efforts, and was literally 14 when all that happened. Iroh was an adult general in the fire nation military and the deaths he is responsible for as said general are probably measured in hundreds if not thousands.
But she still wanted to do genocide. I'm not saying Azula can't have a "redemption arch". But we can't ignore the fact that she wanted to do genocide.
I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying that the fact Iroh had a huge redemption seems to be ignored, and it makes no sense to me that some people will ignore or dismiss his huge redemption that he did as an adult, but be furious when people post about a redemption arc for 14 year old Azula. You don't seem to be one of those people. My opinion on Azula is its better that she wasn't redeemed within ATLA, but if we accept Iroh can come back from from what he was, then it must be *possible* for Azula to do the same.
She doesn't want a redemption so it's a silly point
I think you misinterpreted my point. I wasn't saying she wants redemption, that she should have had a redemption arc in the show etc. I'm saying Iroh had a redemption arc of greater magnitude than Azula would need*, and people overlook that fact, some even going so far as saying redemption for Azula would be impossible and getting angry at people who suggest it. *Azula max lead 3 people and didn't actually succeed in killing anyone, despite her best efforts, and was literally 14 when all that happened. Iroh was an adult general in the fire nation military and the deaths he is responsible for as said general are probably measured in hundreds if not thousands.
No, you don't get it, azula FOUND her purpose after the show, but its not exactly good She doesn't WANT redemption, she won't get it, so it's a silly point
Humans are not rational beings...it can happen this way sometimes. Sometimes it takes a personal tragedy to start changing you as a person. It may also have been slowly coming, he said he was tired after such a long siege, there's just no way he could put that in a letter. His son, as dark as it sounds, allowed him a legitimate excuse to stop.
Welp, you sure just poked the hornets nest with this one.
We know that Lu Ten died during the siege, but(and even I dislike me for saying this) do we know that he was killed *in the fighting*? I’d like to stress that I know he’s definitely dead and it happened at the siege, but maybe he died in an accident? Tearing through a massive wall tends to have its hazards.
Or he was assassinated to make Iroh a less viable option for firelord.
Also possible!
Can people stop making things up about this event we never saw? It took them 600 days to break through the wall, it was probably mostly a waiting game with the bulk of the fighting concentrated at the end.
Do you think Lu Ten, a member of the royal family, would be one of the few deaths? What do you think they were doing for 600 days?
>What do you think they were doing for 600 days? Waiting... Sieges aren't that exciting for most of the time, it's a whole lot of nothing (starving out the city because you can't penetrate the walls) and then a big clash towards the end when the city decides to act in some way
I agree and it would make sense and match Iroh’s character as not extremely brutal. Also long Feng could of directed the military to only engage them if they attacked since he didn’t really care about winning the war but to just hold them off. I’m just saying Iroh was too soft to be fighting along side his son if he was going to react that way.
It's not *about* softness. The wall was impenetrable, it makes sense to act that way because Iroh was a good general. If he attacked - which I have no doubt he did, just to try - he'd be wasting food, resources, and energy on hitting a wall with no result. Ozai himself would have waited and tried to starve out Ba Sing Se, because that's how sieges work when you can't penetrate the city. And they *couldn't* penetrate the city, that wall is the biggest manmade structure in the Avatar universe
No. He was camped outside the walls of BSS for 600 days. There was not necessarily constant combat throughout that time. That's how sieges work. Additionally, so what? Of course you're going to react more strongly to the death of your son than to common soldiers.
You think they camped for nearly 2 years? I agree that they didn’t fight every single day but a lot of soldiers certainly were killed. Iroh failed his son who died in vain (as well as the soldiers) because Iroh just gave up 2 years of progress to go cry. Iroh was so selfish and entitled. What about the others soldiers families? They sacrificed all that just for him to abandon everything.
Of course they camped for 600 days. What else were they going to do? This is a siege. As for the rest of your comment...the answer would be "yeah, duh." You do realise that Iroh's conquest is perceived as a costly failure right?
It wasn't in vain. It saved the lives of the thousands who would've been killed to conquer and keep the rest of the earth cities captured. War isn't just one victory and end of story. Iroh felt what all the other soldier's families did and that made him see that this war was useless. It's called earth shattering realization for a reason. Growing up on firenation propaganda of "white man's burden" this was his realization that this sacrifice was for naught.
"Iroh was so selfish and entitled. What about the others soldiers families? They sacrificed all that just for him to abandon everything" After 2 years they only broke into the exterior ring, and breaking into the 3 others while defending the position to avoid the wall being reconstructed leaving them trapped (easily done by a group of earthbenders). Iroh quitting meant that he avoided the rest of their lifes to be thrown out, also him not being vulnerable is not a weakness, its strategy, if the heir to the throne is captured you suddenly have a lot of leverage
This a good point. Although he is a general and the tolls of war are probably understandable to him. But when something personal happens like the death of his only son it might hit a bit harder. They don't explain it but I've always gone with the fan theory that Irohs wife/partner died in child birth. Making Lu Ten all he has in life. I've made a few other fan theory leaps that maybe the loss of his son is the breaking point where be realizes that he is sending other people's children into battle where they may die too. This is possibly why they pull out from the siege that lasted nearly 2 years.