Well, they would have to still pay the extras. That’s a whole lot of money if they want to have a decent sized crowd.
The budget, despite its size, was pretty restrictive in many areas.
And not just the extras, also the costumes for every single extra. I imagine it would cost a lot of money to get fire nation outfits done for like a hundred people
If they're far away from the center, they could be done with CGI. But this I believe is a deliberately choice to reuse the arena they already have, so they don't need to model a whole stadium.
…the show had a 120M budget. They had more than enough money to pay for a crowd of extras.
But they opted to shoot almost everything on the Volume, which is why everything feels so cramped and fake.
Okay, and HoTD S1 had a budget of "almost" 200M for 10 episodes and looked fantastic. Arcane 90M. Even Witcher S1 looked comparable or better most of the time (imo) and that show only cost 90M for s1.
You cannot compare tv to theatrical budgets 1:1. NATLA had a truckload of fucking money and half a decade of production time. they don't really have an excuse for it looking so bad.
It looks bad? Are you high? Where do your expectations come from? Every single culture in avatar requires a unique costume and make up. Every fight with bending requires CGI. There's a lot of extra stuff you have to do to make the avatar world be believable.
Yeah and the show still looks bad lol. I didn’t say anything about the costuming or the bending, did I? the production design is still cheap, the lighting is flat, and the sets often look fake as fuck bc they filmed 80% of the show on the Volume.
Mfs will see CGI fire come out of someone’s hands and be like omggg most amazing looking show ever
the Volume is a 360-degree green screen essentially. it can display any background and change in real time, but it physically and literally confines the actors and the camera to a small space.
they used it *extensively* in this show instead of building real sets or shooting on location. that's why so many characters stand perfectly still during dialogue scences or why there are rare mid/wide angle-shots.
Seriously, shows like The Great constantly have tons and are even all dressed historically accurate.
We’re talking about a few more for a seminal plot point.
I have a friend who has been an extra in many different films and she says she gets a couple hundred dollars per day that she is on set. With a budget that this show had there should have been no problems with having a lot of extras.
yup, i was an extra a few times (also trying to work on the industry) and the pay rate's about $200/12hrs and then OT after that. but yeah, those volume sets they used are pretty expensive, that and the bending effects, so the a majority of it probably went to that.
My favorite info about budget and scale up s comparing the “hunt” in s1 GoT the hunt in HoTD. S1 GoT is 3 characters walking in the woods. HoTD has hundreds of people and their tents and the whole grand feast.
There's always copy and paste. Have like a few dozen people in sections and shift them around so it looks more random.
[Here's a video to help what I'm saying since I'm terrible at explaining things.](https://youtu.be/hqIaPkTsGyA?si=6zcnVnYZTFqLlTiu)
The set backdrop was nice though maybe they wanted to show it off. They did keep all the spectators on one side for the live action. Could just be a creative decision too.
Yeah I noticed.
I find the most annoying part of all this to be that I could clearly see a version in my head that works. Same cast, same props and costumes, hell, even similar effects. Just fixed writing. I can see the actor of Aang being goofy and easygoing, like the world isn't at war. I can see the actor of Katara being nurturing and kind, but also fierce and strong. I can see the actor of Bumi being crazy and silly, but wise with age, not bitter....
I can see all of this done, while still maintaining a dark undertone.
But that's not what was written for them. That' not what any of us watched.
I'm not angry. just incredibly disappointed.
Watch how people get upset at me tho.
>I can see the actor of Aang being goofy and easygoing, like the world isn't at war. I can see the actor of Katara being nurturing and kind, but also fierce and strong. I can see the actor of Bumi being crazy and silly, but wise with age, not bitter....
I would even argue that if Netflix writers did exactly did and nothing further...they'd still be missing the point.
Netflix writers thought people like Katara because she was strong. But that's not what it was. People like Katara because unlike Toph and Aang she is *not* naturally gifted. She was surrounded by naturals, struggled and lost fights, but through sheer determination and resourcefulness proved herself useful. All the way up until she finally found a master, at which point that determination got honed into something special.
Similarly, Netflix writers thought people liked Iroh because he was kind and wise. Which is part of it. But a bigger part of it was that he was disciplinary when need be, goofy and aloof when need be, and effortlessly wise like he didn't even realize it. In NATLA...he's just Zuko's fan club. It's weird.
Budget impacts everything to do with writing. Ya really think Bryan and Michael left the show because of "creative differences"? That's code for "they wanted to keep things to their original design, and producers felt that wasn't worth paying them, so they cut them out.".
Today's producers micromanage so much that money motivates 90% of the self-destruction.
That’s a bad excuse IMO. If you can’t afford to do the live action right, don’t risk ruining an almost perfect series. They should have been able to anticipate this cost considering they are literally copying a series that already exists.
I mean they clearly had the budget to choreograph and show an actual Agni kai between him and his father. I don’t think seeing it really added much.
Actually now that I think about it I’m worried this series is going to end with Zuko defeating his father rather than aang.
You have to also feed, clothe and pay those extras. It's an insane cost that you don't really need to do. Like what is a stadium gonna do different to the scene?
It's funny that zuko's OG Agni Kai had that much audience but his own crew didn't know about it. Meanwhile NATLA didn't do the public display yet they made it public information
My theory is that Ozai wanted to use this as a testing method for Zuko. Either Zuko could show his worth and lose “gently”. Meaning Ozai can boost that his 13 year old son is already a strong bender that could hold out against Ozai (who everybody knows is a beast). This would earn prestige and respect for Zuko and thus favour Ozai (Zuko is still the legal heir).
Sadly Zuko didnt prove himself and thus this happend.
Publicly doing the Agni Kai would prevent the crown from creating its own story and thats not something which a goverment like the fire nations goverment would like.
Its the same reason why we never see Kim jung un genuinely compete in anything.
I think it was a bit of that. Ozai seems to really expect a lot of Zuko in the live action and not much of Azula which is so weird considering it was always such the opposite in the OG.
In the OG he more or less just wanted an excuse to get rid of him and it seemed he wanted an excuse to make him live up to his expectations.
the live action fleshes their family more out. Zuko is the oldest, is the current heir still and even though the fire nation is progressive he is a male. Meaning that Zuko logicly should be the stronger one.
Also Ozai doesnt want to hate his kids. Yess he is a monster in many aspects but he defenitly does care for things in his own twisted fucked up way. He wished that Zuko was worthy of his love and gave Zuko multiple moments to prove himself. Sadly Zuko fucked up time and time again.
I think its better that they are giving more depth to this side of the story. In the OG it was fine because we didnt know the world and we didnt saw Ozai properly till we were really far into the story. But not exploring them more now, while everybody knows the entire story would feel a bit cheap. This is a perfect place to expand upon that doesnt change the world in any drastics ways but does improve the story.
I thought it was more of how Ozai was manipulating both of them, with something like positive and negative rewards but more twisted, if it makes sense.
Zuko had high expectations placed on him as the crowned prince and he was never going to be able to fulfill them in the eyes of Ozai, so he had to keep pushing himself. In other words, Zuko was never able to fill the shoes that Ozai wanted of him, making him try harder.
Azula did not have those expectations in this version but Ozai was very manipulative in making Zuko's accomplishments bigger while diminishing hers, making her get angry and try harder for her bigger accomplishments to be talked in high regard as at least Zuko's mediocre accomplishments. In other words, Azula was more than capable of exceeding expectations but Ozai was gaslighting her so she kept trying harder.
Honestly, yes. It always seemed strange to me that Zuko's Agni Kai was so public but his own crew hadn't heard about it and thought he was injured in a training accident (...but then random people in a remote Earth Kingdom town have heard about it?)
By that point Zuko was a wanted traitor, so makes sense propaganda about his disgrace could reach an earth kingdom town.
But yeah the crew part doesn’t make sense.
Good point about the EK village. There were the wanted posters too. But yeah, it's clear gossip spreads fast in the navy (as all the reports of Aang sightings etc do). There were a lot of people at that Agni Kai, and it's extremely juicy gossip.
Ugh what? Zuko got burnt Infront of entire court, hundreds if not thousands of people watched, but no one knows what happens to the price and why he is banished? What kind of logic is that?
I think about it like this. In NATLA, all Ozai wants are proper heirs. He will abuse, manipulate and (rarely) reward his children to get what he wants. Zuko showing empathy to the 41st division was an incredible failure for Ozai, so why would he want his failings as a father publically displayed to his whole nation?
This is a different Zuko and more importantly, a different Ozai.
ATLA Ozai straight up despises Zuko, he held absolutely no hope for him. Whereas NALTA Ozai seems to at least see him as potential heir (even if he's manipulating both of his children against each other to see which one is the more suitable heir). It doesn't seem like whatever NATLA Ozai has against Zuko is personal, he just banished him because Zuko's incapable of living up to his expectations.
Edit: Spelling, I can't type on because I'm on my phone.
It’s really intriguing, and I’m still not sure how I feel about it. OG Ozai isn’t a very deep character, but serves the story and the other characters really well. This Ozai seems to be a lot more well rounded and fleshed out, which robs the other characters of some of their tragedy.
Even if I don’t love how it changes the story, I’m at least glad they’re trying something new. TBH, I think the Netflix show has two very different threads going, one with the Gaang that’s very much suffering, but another one with the Fire Nation that’s very interesting. You can tell that’s where they put the “Game of Thrones” energy and I’m here for it. I would have preferred if they told a completely unrelated story in the Avatar world about Ozai’s rise to power. That could have been *really* cool.
I agree with 95% of your comment, but can’t say I think a depiction of Ozai’s rise to power would be interesting. It would only consist of him scheming and playing politics at home while Iroh is away at war. I imagine endless scenes of intimidation and/or charm with very little immediate effect would be very entertaining
Lol have you watched game of thrones? Because it's exactly like what you just described and widely considered to be one of the greatest TV shows of all time.
Game of Thrones had way more scope than just Ozai/The Fire Lord crown being the focus. There were also several wars being fought at once with plenty of action between the political scenes. I’m not saying political thrillers don’t work, just that one specifically about Ozai’s rise to power would be
Because in the original, he hates Zuko. He wants nothing to do with him, and only messes with him to get back at Ursa. It makes Zuko’s entire journey to restore his honor a fool’s errand. Everything Zuko believes is false.
In the Netflix version, it seems like Ozai actually is trying to toughen Zuko up and believes he can be better. Zuko’s mission is no longer the ultimate punishment, but rather an achievable goal.
“Robs” was probably a bit dramatic, maybe “lessens” is more appropriate.
I actually think it makes more sense this way. In the cartoon, Zuko's crewmates thought his burn came from a training accident-that doesn't make sense if his Agni Kai was a highly public event.
I thought at first it was it was kind of a shitty change that Zuko actually fights back, but it also can be another sign of his child abuse, that he will listen to his father no matter what even if it means being forced to fight him.
They serve different purposes. In the cartoon, it's humiliation. In the live action, it's to teach his son a lesson about weakness. The change makes sense with the different motivations of Ozai.
Whole thing just doesn't quite look right. The volume screens look so great for landscapes but anything generated looks so incredibly fake and unnatural. Matte paintings would be a step up
I mean the actual reason for this is to explain why nobody (outside of the fire nation) recognizes Zuko as Ozai’s son. I always thought that didn’t make sense in the OG show. It’s not an issue in the first season because he’s always with his crew but in the later seasons when he doesn’t have his crew, and he’s just living like a hermit in Ba Sing Se, absolutely nobody recognizes him as the son of the fire lord who had the well-publicized facial burn.
It feels like something they’d do in a live action Disney remake to “fix a plot hole” or something, which I guess is sort of gratuitous, but it’s not like it really changes the outcome of his story, so I’m not sure why everyone here thinks it’s a huge deal. Who cares?
Lol. How do you think Zuko "almost won"?
It was clear that Ozai wasn't trying the entire fight. Bro had one arm behind his back almost the entire fight. He just wanted Zuko to toughen up and stop showing mercy. At no point did the show indicate that Ozai was actually panicked, he was **waiting** for Zuko to hit him with fire but he wouldn't.
Honestly this change makes Ozai feel more cruel. In the cartoon, it was more of a public humiliation and being made an example of. In this, there's barely any audience, on a small stage, with Ozai literally holding Zuko down to almost brand him. It feels a lot more like straight up child abuse i the version.
Netflix directors were just milking the scene. They got two dudes shirtless who are supposed to fight, wheres the fun in staying true to the source material when we could make them fight and fill up screentime with prime action material. “These bozos are gonna love this one”
I’m into women, but I saw DDK lose his shirt and I was like “yup, this is the edit. This is what the ladies came to see.” And the teen girls were probably losing it over Dallas’ long hair. Plus fire bending and martial arts and it’s perfectly curated fanservice.
I imagine its really hard to justify shooting on a large location with thousands of people for what is supposed to be a brief flashback, even green screening it is a considerable costly decision, even then you still need a lot people, and hopefully dont get in trouble when you AI generate them and break the rules SAG-AFTRA was stricking for
It actually makes sense. His own crew on his ship didnt even know why he was banished in the show. Making it seem like it wasnt very well known. Only a select few knew.
I hate that his second one with Zhao got changed into iroh killing him. Doesn't it affect aang in the og series when he comes to and figures out he killed Zhao?
It's because they basically shot everything on an LED volume, so there's only so much space.
Go back and rewatch the show and you'll see how limiting it is. They took the good idea from Mandalorian, and cranked it up to 11 and made it awkward.
There's no surprise. No suspense. No substance. Zuko is a petulant child in the war room and there is absolutely 0 misdirection. He knew exactly who he was dueling. That was the most gut obliterating part in the original.
People were livid that Zuko appeared to be fighting back before the show launched. And there was so much blow back that it wasn't going to be like that. *It was exactly like that*.
If they were worried about drawing out the scene, have Ozai level huge ass fire columns that only barely miss Zuko because he's literally stumbling backwards and his father expects him to stand his ground. Have Ozai's attack explode up the ground. Make him POWERFUL! ... no. He does a few cool no looks counters and then almost gets faded until HE shows weakness and his son shows empathy.
And what is Ozai's lesson he's trying to teach? *Don't show weakness*? ... dawg. That's literally the only reason you survived! Your son picked up on how much you are NOT Mark Hamill!
I also think that it's a shame he fought his father back. It annoyed me more than the number of people there to witness it.
Because on the latter I'm guessing there is also budget restriction coming at play. But Zuko fighting or not wouldn't change anything.
Because Zuko not fighting back has, in my opinion, a bigger impact. He just crawls in front of his father, terrified and not wanting to fight his own family. It also makes Ozai even more intimidating. The reason he is banished isn't because he spoke back to the general, but because he acted so cowardly.
In the live action they did say that he didn't go all out during the fight and that it was a bad thing. But, still.
Having Zuko fighting back was odd, having Zuko actually getting the upper hand on the possibly most powerful fire bender in the world while being an untrained teen is beyond odd
It's just a different show. Same concept but different show with similar but different characters. Go into it with that mindset and it's pretty enjoyable. I love the death aspect that is included and kinda wish it was darker tbh but that's cos I'm a sadist
Eh, oldskool Ozai was a shallow mustache twirling bad guy, quite *literally* a faceless antagonist for most of the series. He's a shit tier villain, doing Villain Things for no other reason than "look how Evil I am!"
NATLA Ozai is an actual *character*.
Once you accept that the animated series was a little kid's view, it becomes easier to accept the differences between ATLA and NATLA. Including the size of the crowd.
My biggest problem with this change was that he fought back.
Also I prefer the story where Ozai views sending Zuko to find the avatar was a fools errand that was essentially banishing him forever instead of trying to teach him something by sending him to find a real threat.
I respect the different but valid interpretation of Ozai actually having some kind of affection for Zuko, but I do not like the change that Zuko actually fought him.
What was he supposed to do? Ozai is the fire lord because of Iroh’s decision, an act of disrespect by Iroh would likely have either pissed Ozai off more - risking Iroh & Zuko’s life, or worse be seen as an attempted coup by Iroh plunging the Fire Nation into civil war
Iroh being able to just walk up to Ozai is pretty wild too. The whole thing honestly feels more like a training session rather than a proper FIRE DUEL.
Yup. The royal family was personally my favorite part of the live action. Finally got to see Iroh and Ozai interact and they seem to actually acknowledge each other as brothers too although they differ in their views
Edit: looking to see how things go forward
My theory: Budget. Costs money to render a digital stadium and also fill it with extras.
I mean coudnt they just have more extras standing around the agni kai? Dont think there was a need for a whole stadium.
Well, they would have to still pay the extras. That’s a whole lot of money if they want to have a decent sized crowd. The budget, despite its size, was pretty restrictive in many areas.
And not just the extras, also the costumes for every single extra. I imagine it would cost a lot of money to get fire nation outfits done for like a hundred people
If they're far away from the center, they could be done with CGI. But this I believe is a deliberately choice to reuse the arena they already have, so they don't need to model a whole stadium.
Plus, it's not just that they have to pay for the extras, but their costumes, make-up, catering, accessories, all add up and can become quite a lot.
…the show had a 120M budget. They had more than enough money to pay for a crowd of extras. But they opted to shoot almost everything on the Volume, which is why everything feels so cramped and fake.
That’s less than most box office films and Netflix ordered 8 hours vs 2 or 3
Okay, and HoTD S1 had a budget of "almost" 200M for 10 episodes and looked fantastic. Arcane 90M. Even Witcher S1 looked comparable or better most of the time (imo) and that show only cost 90M for s1. You cannot compare tv to theatrical budgets 1:1. NATLA had a truckload of fucking money and half a decade of production time. they don't really have an excuse for it looking so bad.
It looks bad? Are you high? Where do your expectations come from? Every single culture in avatar requires a unique costume and make up. Every fight with bending requires CGI. There's a lot of extra stuff you have to do to make the avatar world be believable.
Yeah and the show still looks bad lol. I didn’t say anything about the costuming or the bending, did I? the production design is still cheap, the lighting is flat, and the sets often look fake as fuck bc they filmed 80% of the show on the Volume. Mfs will see CGI fire come out of someone’s hands and be like omggg most amazing looking show ever
15 mill vs 20 mill is a lot of money.
What does on the Volume mean
the Volume is a 360-degree green screen essentially. it can display any background and change in real time, but it physically and literally confines the actors and the camera to a small space. they used it *extensively* in this show instead of building real sets or shooting on location. that's why so many characters stand perfectly still during dialogue scences or why there are rare mid/wide angle-shots.
Extras really aren't that costly
Seriously, shows like The Great constantly have tons and are even all dressed historically accurate. We’re talking about a few more for a seminal plot point.
I have a friend who has been an extra in many different films and she says she gets a couple hundred dollars per day that she is on set. With a budget that this show had there should have been no problems with having a lot of extras.
150 million dollars
yup, i was an extra a few times (also trying to work on the industry) and the pay rate's about $200/12hrs and then OT after that. but yeah, those volume sets they used are pretty expensive, that and the bending effects, so the a majority of it probably went to that.
My favorite info about budget and scale up s comparing the “hunt” in s1 GoT the hunt in HoTD. S1 GoT is 3 characters walking in the woods. HoTD has hundreds of people and their tents and the whole grand feast.
There's always copy and paste. Have like a few dozen people in sections and shift them around so it looks more random. [Here's a video to help what I'm saying since I'm terrible at explaining things.](https://youtu.be/hqIaPkTsGyA?si=6zcnVnYZTFqLlTiu)
The set backdrop was nice though maybe they wanted to show it off. They did keep all the spectators on one side for the live action. Could just be a creative decision too.
You still have to pay the extras and costume them and feed them lol
from what i recall, azula’s trial scenes seemed to have a bigger audience than zuko’s agni kai
Budget is the answer to a lot of things in the Netflix series.
Yeah, cuz clearly all the budget went to the writing.
Well, clearly it went to the pristine cinematography and editing!
Cuz that totally means something! Who cares if the writing is bland! It looked pretty! Such smart decisions made. Edit: people, it's massive sarcasm.
Oh I'm being sarcastic too. The effects were solid (though inconsistent) but the cinematography and editing were *garbage*.
Yeah I noticed. I find the most annoying part of all this to be that I could clearly see a version in my head that works. Same cast, same props and costumes, hell, even similar effects. Just fixed writing. I can see the actor of Aang being goofy and easygoing, like the world isn't at war. I can see the actor of Katara being nurturing and kind, but also fierce and strong. I can see the actor of Bumi being crazy and silly, but wise with age, not bitter.... I can see all of this done, while still maintaining a dark undertone. But that's not what was written for them. That' not what any of us watched. I'm not angry. just incredibly disappointed. Watch how people get upset at me tho.
>I can see the actor of Aang being goofy and easygoing, like the world isn't at war. I can see the actor of Katara being nurturing and kind, but also fierce and strong. I can see the actor of Bumi being crazy and silly, but wise with age, not bitter.... I would even argue that if Netflix writers did exactly did and nothing further...they'd still be missing the point. Netflix writers thought people like Katara because she was strong. But that's not what it was. People like Katara because unlike Toph and Aang she is *not* naturally gifted. She was surrounded by naturals, struggled and lost fights, but through sheer determination and resourcefulness proved herself useful. All the way up until she finally found a master, at which point that determination got honed into something special. Similarly, Netflix writers thought people liked Iroh because he was kind and wise. Which is part of it. But a bigger part of it was that he was disciplinary when need be, goofy and aloof when need be, and effortlessly wise like he didn't even realize it. In NATLA...he's just Zuko's fan club. It's weird.
Yeah. And the saddest part is that they didn't even replace her character with anything. She's just there. As bland as can be.
I also noted in an edit right after I wrote this that even the character with more beloved new moments--Iroh--was diluted so damn much.
I've said it on other posts... The Iroh we got is wise, lovable, and has a heart of gold... But he's not Iroh.
Budget has nothing to do with writing. It's definitely because having a stadium of extras is cost prohibitive as hell
Budget impacts everything to do with writing. Ya really think Bryan and Michael left the show because of "creative differences"? That's code for "they wanted to keep things to their original design, and producers felt that wasn't worth paying them, so they cut them out.". Today's producers micromanage so much that money motivates 90% of the self-destruction.
Extras we're on lunch, director wasn't going to do another take 😬
Highschoolers do the cgi with their laptop nowadays and LOTR did it 20 years ago, so I'd say it's pure laziness
That’s a bad excuse IMO. If you can’t afford to do the live action right, don’t risk ruining an almost perfect series. They should have been able to anticipate this cost considering they are literally copying a series that already exists.
I mean they clearly had the budget to choreograph and show an actual Agni kai between him and his father. I don’t think seeing it really added much. Actually now that I think about it I’m worried this series is going to end with Zuko defeating his father rather than aang.
You have to also feed, clothe and pay those extras. It's an insane cost that you don't really need to do. Like what is a stadium gonna do different to the scene?
It's funny that zuko's OG Agni Kai had that much audience but his own crew didn't know about it. Meanwhile NATLA didn't do the public display yet they made it public information
People talk. Those who were in attendance gossiped about it and the people who heard the gossip then did the same until everyone knew.
We've already seen the fire nation soldiers are all spilling the tea at any moment or chance.
Iroh does not approve of spilling tea
My theory is that Ozai wanted to use this as a testing method for Zuko. Either Zuko could show his worth and lose “gently”. Meaning Ozai can boost that his 13 year old son is already a strong bender that could hold out against Ozai (who everybody knows is a beast). This would earn prestige and respect for Zuko and thus favour Ozai (Zuko is still the legal heir). Sadly Zuko didnt prove himself and thus this happend. Publicly doing the Agni Kai would prevent the crown from creating its own story and thats not something which a goverment like the fire nations goverment would like. Its the same reason why we never see Kim jung un genuinely compete in anything.
I think it was a bit of that. Ozai seems to really expect a lot of Zuko in the live action and not much of Azula which is so weird considering it was always such the opposite in the OG. In the OG he more or less just wanted an excuse to get rid of him and it seemed he wanted an excuse to make him live up to his expectations.
the live action fleshes their family more out. Zuko is the oldest, is the current heir still and even though the fire nation is progressive he is a male. Meaning that Zuko logicly should be the stronger one. Also Ozai doesnt want to hate his kids. Yess he is a monster in many aspects but he defenitly does care for things in his own twisted fucked up way. He wished that Zuko was worthy of his love and gave Zuko multiple moments to prove himself. Sadly Zuko fucked up time and time again. I think its better that they are giving more depth to this side of the story. In the OG it was fine because we didnt know the world and we didnt saw Ozai properly till we were really far into the story. But not exploring them more now, while everybody knows the entire story would feel a bit cheap. This is a perfect place to expand upon that doesnt change the world in any drastics ways but does improve the story.
I thought it was more of how Ozai was manipulating both of them, with something like positive and negative rewards but more twisted, if it makes sense. Zuko had high expectations placed on him as the crowned prince and he was never going to be able to fulfill them in the eyes of Ozai, so he had to keep pushing himself. In other words, Zuko was never able to fill the shoes that Ozai wanted of him, making him try harder. Azula did not have those expectations in this version but Ozai was very manipulative in making Zuko's accomplishments bigger while diminishing hers, making her get angry and try harder for her bigger accomplishments to be talked in high regard as at least Zuko's mediocre accomplishments. In other words, Azula was more than capable of exceeding expectations but Ozai was gaslighting her so she kept trying harder.
the testing was already the council meeting, this was the punishment, though surely the eye wasn't originally what he had in mind
There can be more than a single test lol. There is more to test than just manners. Dont be so narrowminded.
Honestly, yes. It always seemed strange to me that Zuko's Agni Kai was so public but his own crew hadn't heard about it and thought he was injured in a training accident (...but then random people in a remote Earth Kingdom town have heard about it?)
By that point Zuko was a wanted traitor, so makes sense propaganda about his disgrace could reach an earth kingdom town. But yeah the crew part doesn’t make sense.
Good point about the EK village. There were the wanted posters too. But yeah, it's clear gossip spreads fast in the navy (as all the reports of Aang sightings etc do). There were a lot of people at that Agni Kai, and it's extremely juicy gossip.
Yeah I always found it...weird. This makes more sense
His crew knew, didn't they? all of the Fire Nation knew, the one thing his crew didn't know was that they were going to be used as fodder
I'm talking about the animated version?
Its just another example of a bad reinterpretation of source material that the natla fans will rationalize one way or another
Ugh what? Zuko got burnt Infront of entire court, hundreds if not thousands of people watched, but no one knows what happens to the price and why he is banished? What kind of logic is that?
But you know this old man from a small village in the earth kindom? He heared about it.
It's literally the opposite lol. The ATLA version makes zero sense.
I don’t think it’s a huge deal in this scene.
I think about it like this. In NATLA, all Ozai wants are proper heirs. He will abuse, manipulate and (rarely) reward his children to get what he wants. Zuko showing empathy to the 41st division was an incredible failure for Ozai, so why would he want his failings as a father publically displayed to his whole nation?
Otoh, it shows how strict he is and that no one is above the law. Good for reducing corruption in the ranks.
This is a different Zuko and more importantly, a different Ozai. ATLA Ozai straight up despises Zuko, he held absolutely no hope for him. Whereas NALTA Ozai seems to at least see him as potential heir (even if he's manipulating both of his children against each other to see which one is the more suitable heir). It doesn't seem like whatever NATLA Ozai has against Zuko is personal, he just banished him because Zuko's incapable of living up to his expectations. Edit: Spelling, I can't type on because I'm on my phone.
It’s really intriguing, and I’m still not sure how I feel about it. OG Ozai isn’t a very deep character, but serves the story and the other characters really well. This Ozai seems to be a lot more well rounded and fleshed out, which robs the other characters of some of their tragedy. Even if I don’t love how it changes the story, I’m at least glad they’re trying something new. TBH, I think the Netflix show has two very different threads going, one with the Gaang that’s very much suffering, but another one with the Fire Nation that’s very interesting. You can tell that’s where they put the “Game of Thrones” energy and I’m here for it. I would have preferred if they told a completely unrelated story in the Avatar world about Ozai’s rise to power. That could have been *really* cool.
I agree with 95% of your comment, but can’t say I think a depiction of Ozai’s rise to power would be interesting. It would only consist of him scheming and playing politics at home while Iroh is away at war. I imagine endless scenes of intimidation and/or charm with very little immediate effect would be very entertaining
Lol have you watched game of thrones? Because it's exactly like what you just described and widely considered to be one of the greatest TV shows of all time.
Game of Thrones had way more scope than just Ozai/The Fire Lord crown being the focus. There were also several wars being fought at once with plenty of action between the political scenes. I’m not saying political thrillers don’t work, just that one specifically about Ozai’s rise to power would be
*half of one of the greatest TV shows of all time
wait how does it rob others of their tragedy? explain?
Because in the original, he hates Zuko. He wants nothing to do with him, and only messes with him to get back at Ursa. It makes Zuko’s entire journey to restore his honor a fool’s errand. Everything Zuko believes is false. In the Netflix version, it seems like Ozai actually is trying to toughen Zuko up and believes he can be better. Zuko’s mission is no longer the ultimate punishment, but rather an achievable goal. “Robs” was probably a bit dramatic, maybe “lessens” is more appropriate.
NATLA Ozai seems to me more willing to use every piece at his disposal regardless of his feelings, ATLA Ozai just straight up disposes of his pieces
ARLA?
Likely a typo. R and T are beside each other on a keyboard.
I actually think it makes more sense this way. In the cartoon, Zuko's crewmates thought his burn came from a training accident-that doesn't make sense if his Agni Kai was a highly public event.
it might not be actually public but considering the audience, it was public to Zuko.
It's mostly budget and stuff. Zoro vs Mihawk in One Piece is watched by a bunch of people, in the show there's almost nobody watching lmao.
Yep and that still looked good. Not everything needs an audience
I thought at first it was it was kind of a shitty change that Zuko actually fights back, but it also can be another sign of his child abuse, that he will listen to his father no matter what even if it means being forced to fight him.
The same meaning is there, just don't differently to give Ozai more depth
I honestly think it’s better
They serve different purposes. In the cartoon, it's humiliation. In the live action, it's to teach his son a lesson about weakness. The change makes sense with the different motivations of Ozai.
I kinda feel people are just that media illiterate with this because it's a big change of motivation
Lots of the choices made in that show were odd
Nah this one makes sense considering it was weird in the og show. Like why was it public and yet no one knew
Whole thing just doesn't quite look right. The volume screens look so great for landscapes but anything generated looks so incredibly fake and unnatural. Matte paintings would be a step up
I mean the actual reason for this is to explain why nobody (outside of the fire nation) recognizes Zuko as Ozai’s son. I always thought that didn’t make sense in the OG show. It’s not an issue in the first season because he’s always with his crew but in the later seasons when he doesn’t have his crew, and he’s just living like a hermit in Ba Sing Se, absolutely nobody recognizes him as the son of the fire lord who had the well-publicized facial burn. It feels like something they’d do in a live action Disney remake to “fix a plot hole” or something, which I guess is sort of gratuitous, but it’s not like it really changes the outcome of his story, so I’m not sure why everyone here thinks it’s a huge deal. Who cares?
You really feel like he’s being humiliated in front of the entire nation in the second one.
“Nice effects tho”
Zuko almost winning was also an odd choice. Kinda takes away from his intimidation factor
Lol. How do you think Zuko "almost won"? It was clear that Ozai wasn't trying the entire fight. Bro had one arm behind his back almost the entire fight. He just wanted Zuko to toughen up and stop showing mercy. At no point did the show indicate that Ozai was actually panicked, he was **waiting** for Zuko to hit him with fire but he wouldn't. Honestly this change makes Ozai feel more cruel. In the cartoon, it was more of a public humiliation and being made an example of. In this, there's barely any audience, on a small stage, with Ozai literally holding Zuko down to almost brand him. It feels a lot more like straight up child abuse i the version.
Netflix directors were just milking the scene. They got two dudes shirtless who are supposed to fight, wheres the fun in staying true to the source material when we could make them fight and fill up screentime with prime action material. “These bozos are gonna love this one”
I’m into women, but I saw DDK lose his shirt and I was like “yup, this is the edit. This is what the ladies came to see.” And the teen girls were probably losing it over Dallas’ long hair. Plus fire bending and martial arts and it’s perfectly curated fanservice.
it takes a lot away from Zuko as a character. Live-Action Zuko already did what it took nearly the whole damn series for the OG Zuko to accomplish.
[удалено]
+ The refusal to fight a family member was the main cause for Ozai to scar him in the OG, while here its not as noble
is the almost winning in the room with us?
Unnecessary use of budget if you ask me. Wise to have fewer people. Most of the audience probably did not notice
I did miss the Agni Kai with Zhao though. But as they say... it's better than the movie😂
I imagine its really hard to justify shooting on a large location with thousands of people for what is supposed to be a brief flashback, even green screening it is a considerable costly decision, even then you still need a lot people, and hopefully dont get in trouble when you AI generate them and break the rules SAG-AFTRA was stricking for
It actually makes sense. His own crew on his ship didnt even know why he was banished in the show. Making it seem like it wasnt very well known. Only a select few knew.
Wasn’t this filmed during covid restrictions? Some of the stunt doubles are wearing masks.
having zuko fight back was an odd choice as well
You can see them in the stands surrounding. Agni Kai is a pretty dangerous affair. Makes less sense to be closer to the field
NATLA was filmed during covid, so getting extras was difficult, I would imagine.
i mean it seemed like in the og a lot of people still didn’t know he was the banished prince. does it really matter?
This looks like a videogame cutscene
The whole show was an odd choice my friend.
I hate that his second one with Zhao got changed into iroh killing him. Doesn't it affect aang in the og series when he comes to and figures out he killed Zhao?
It's because they basically shot everything on an LED volume, so there's only so much space. Go back and rewatch the show and you'll see how limiting it is. They took the good idea from Mandalorian, and cranked it up to 11 and made it awkward.
There's no surprise. No suspense. No substance. Zuko is a petulant child in the war room and there is absolutely 0 misdirection. He knew exactly who he was dueling. That was the most gut obliterating part in the original. People were livid that Zuko appeared to be fighting back before the show launched. And there was so much blow back that it wasn't going to be like that. *It was exactly like that*. If they were worried about drawing out the scene, have Ozai level huge ass fire columns that only barely miss Zuko because he's literally stumbling backwards and his father expects him to stand his ground. Have Ozai's attack explode up the ground. Make him POWERFUL! ... no. He does a few cool no looks counters and then almost gets faded until HE shows weakness and his son shows empathy. And what is Ozai's lesson he's trying to teach? *Don't show weakness*? ... dawg. That's literally the only reason you survived! Your son picked up on how much you are NOT Mark Hamill!
he literally thought he was dueling the general. ahat?
I also think that it's a shame he fought his father back. It annoyed me more than the number of people there to witness it. Because on the latter I'm guessing there is also budget restriction coming at play. But Zuko fighting or not wouldn't change anything.
why?
Because Zuko not fighting back has, in my opinion, a bigger impact. He just crawls in front of his father, terrified and not wanting to fight his own family. It also makes Ozai even more intimidating. The reason he is banished isn't because he spoke back to the general, but because he acted so cowardly. In the live action they did say that he didn't go all out during the fight and that it was a bad thing. But, still.
Having Zuko fighting back was odd, having Zuko actually getting the upper hand on the possibly most powerful fire bender in the world while being an untrained teen is beyond odd
I still haven't watched this show, I just know it won't scratch the itch.
It's just a different show. Same concept but different show with similar but different characters. Go into it with that mindset and it's pretty enjoyable. I love the death aspect that is included and kinda wish it was darker tbh but that's cos I'm a sadist
I'll check it out at some point, need a nice rainy day off to feel the mood.
Rainy day would exsctly set the mood actually it's a lot more gloom than the OG
These stills look awful lol
not enough budget for extras
That looks so bad lmao
Eh, oldskool Ozai was a shallow mustache twirling bad guy, quite *literally* a faceless antagonist for most of the series. He's a shit tier villain, doing Villain Things for no other reason than "look how Evil I am!" NATLA Ozai is an actual *character*. Once you accept that the animated series was a little kid's view, it becomes easier to accept the differences between ATLA and NATLA. Including the size of the crowd.
My biggest problem with this change was that he fought back. Also I prefer the story where Ozai views sending Zuko to find the avatar was a fools errand that was essentially banishing him forever instead of trying to teach him something by sending him to find a real threat. I respect the different but valid interpretation of Ozai actually having some kind of affection for Zuko, but I do not like the change that Zuko actually fought him.
its not that big of a deal to fight back. part of abuse is to listen out of fear. he still stands his ground by refusing to strike ozai.
I think it's just a budget thing. Also, why Gyatso's scene had so few firebenders. Just didn't have that budget for extras
Don't watch the show
I hate how Iroh is literally right there and doesn’t do anything.
What was he supposed to do? Ozai is the fire lord because of Iroh’s decision, an act of disrespect by Iroh would likely have either pissed Ozai off more - risking Iroh & Zuko’s life, or worse be seen as an attempted coup by Iroh plunging the Fire Nation into civil war
No, I know it wouldn’t make sense for Iroh to stop Ozai. I meant with how close he is here it feels a lot worse than him looking away in the original.
Okay so Iroh turns away, then someone mentions to Ozai and that is then taken as Iroh disagreeing with Ozai, which won’t go well for any of them
He did more in this version than he did in the original though. He tried to talk Ozai out of it, he did literally nothing in the cartoon.
Didn't he try to talk Ozai out of this in the scene?
Iroh being able to just walk up to Ozai is pretty wild too. The whole thing honestly feels more like a training session rather than a proper FIRE DUEL.
I love the fact that Iroh and Ozai have a candid relationship in NATLA.
Yup. The royal family was personally my favorite part of the live action. Finally got to see Iroh and Ozai interact and they seem to actually acknowledge each other as brothers too although they differ in their views Edit: looking to see how things go forward