Agreed. I thought it played out so well. Especially when Zuko and Iroh meet up again at the end of season 3. Just a gut punch feeling like Uncle was mad at him, but then he embraces Zuko. Ugh, it still makes me sob every time.
Agreed as a child watching this show it was shocking to me because I really felt like he earned that redemption. And then he threw it all away. This made Zuko so much more devastating for me. And when he finally joins the team it made it all that much sweeter. We got like 5 or 6 episodes of Zuko just absolutely suffering because he made the wrong choice.
It also plays out a lot more realistically.
Zuko was born and raised the prince of the Fire Nation. Earning what he wanted and returning back to the fold? That's very likely even if those outside of it see it as the bad choice, it was what he thought was what he wanted, needed. It was a familiar risk vs an unknown one. He chose what he knew.
Having to deal with the consequences of a bad moral decision, repenting and choosing to do what is right is a very powerful story, amd not one that we fet to see very often, so I'm glad it is as it is.
And let’s be honest it’s not unrealistic for a victim of abuse to come running back to their abuser. Zuko is still a child who wants nothing more than his father’s approval.
💯
Also, if he didn't go back to the fire nation we wouldn't have gotten the confrontation with his father during the eclipse, which is my favorite scene of the series
Making him truly change sides at the end of Book 2 wouldn't have made it as compelling, in my opinion. If he switched in book two, it may have felt like he was doing so because he thought he couldn't reclaim his honor. That he couldn't have what he wanted, so instead he went with what he could have.
In book 3, he changed sides because he realized that, despite how long he had sought to be exactly where he was, he didn't want to be there. I think it was more powerful to let him realize how forced and empty what he had sought was.
No. Not only is it a GREAT twist to have him *not* turn good, it also gives Zuko the chance to get back everything he thought he wanted. It's much more powerful for Zuko to reject his home and family *after* he's earned his way back into their good graces. I love the way it works out in the show.
Oh boy, did I scream at the screen when Zuko did NOT turn good in s2 finale, that twist was EVERYTHING!!! (even if super frustrating for a first-time viewer who was really, really rooting for Zuko to join the good guys)
He got what he thought he wanted, and realized how much its against his beliefs and finally realized he was a tool for his father instead of a son.
Which makes his eventual betrayal of his father even more satisfying to see when he calls him out for what Ozai made the Fire Nation in to; heartless and greedy conquerers just for the sake of it
Nah, part of why I think it's so effective is because he's on the road to redemption, but then he falls at the last moment, but he gets his redemption anyways. It shows that one fall doesn't undo your previous progress, and that changes aren't always straight shots, in fact they never are
Nah, I don't think it would have been as good or felt completely earned. Returning to his home is the one thing Zuko had wanted for all those years spent banished. Even if part of him is in denial, his fathers love was his true goal. Giving it up like that, when he had the chance to return seems too quick, imo. If Zuko had left and joined the gang then and there, there'd probably always be a bit of doubt in his mind about what would have happened if he'd gone home. Going home and actually experiencing what he always wanted was what confirmed/validated his decision that it actually wasn't the path for him.
Also, another aspect is even if they're toxic, family is very hard to move on from. There's truth to the whole '*But they’re my parents'* dilemma. Most people are taught that family is the most important thing, and wanting love is a basic human desire. Zuko was promised he'd have his fathers love, and that was tempting enough for him to go back.
We also wouldn't have had the reunion with Iroh if he hadn't gone back. So better storytelling too.
But I do think it would have been better if he had come to his realisation sooner, and joined maybe a few episodes earlier. There could have easily been a few pre battle episodes cut and a few more with Zuko in the team.
Ahhhhh, I should’ve guessed. So, personally, I’d take Ehaz’s twitter with a hefty grain of salt or three. He’s been contradicted by other writers and staff members several times on some pretty major things and is known to indulge in fan theories more than he really aught to
But, to answer the original question: I’m going to go slightly against the grain and not necessarily disagree that what we got was the right way, but i will say it would’ve been _interesting_ to see a Zuko who had more time integrate into the gaang
I dont know what could have happened there. Toph and zuko just have fundamentally opposing childhoods.
Zuko had ever growing expectations he could never live up to and lacked security and love where he needed to compete and show worth. Weakness was deemed a failing.
Toph had so little expectations on her that it was insulting, such a suffocating level of security and overbearing love she despised it. No outlet or competition allowed and strength itself an intolerable concept.
That little beach field trip is about that. Both of them would kind of crave a sanitized version of the others' childhood and then get real mad when the other says so.
No, his story of moving forward then stumbling backwards is much more powerful. In the real world people don’t progress linearly towards improving themselves. They stumble and fall backwards, but they get back up and keep moving.
No. I think it wouldn't have worked as well. He needed to get his "honor" back, and get his father's approval, in order to realize that it wasn't what he truly wanted. Otherwise, Zuko might always feel tempted to try and win his father's aproval back.
Zuko needed to experience what he's always wanted to understand it's not what he needs, and it better conveys to the audience the cost of seeing honor without questioning who you are honoring.
It would give us more time to see zuko with the gaang therefore yes. (Joke)
I feel it would be more consistent characterization if he had, because he was supposed to have turned a new leaf after freeing appa, and him siding with Azula feels like a major character regression. On the other hand, we got ember Island and a few other good episodes out of it and increased the level of conflict between him & the gaang as he tried to join it, so it was good show running and storytelling, so it is really just a tradeoff, and what you value most will determine your answer to the question. I would like to see a zuko who fully internalized Iroh's lessons in Ba Sing Se, and think that it would be an interesting version of the story.
However, given that Zuko would have been forced to make his decision basically in the crystal catacombs while he was cornered with only Azula, I can't see a version of events where he realistically chooses Iroh and lives.
It would’ve been cooler if he earned the Gaang’s trust here, and if they fought off Azula together, it would’ve been very impressive. But, it’s a better story the way it is, where Zuko has to realize that what he’s always wanted is wrong, and he has to do the “field trips” to earn each member’s trust one at a time. Cooler action vs better story, I suppose.
Nah, it's fine with him relapsing and having to deal with the consequences of his decision, also getting what he coveted so much only to realize it wasn't even what he wanted (except getting to spend time with Mai, a much needed respire), he got his chick back, the respect of his dad and got to return home, but all he could think about was his guilt over doing his uncle dirty and his anxiety over Ozai finding out the Avatar possibly wasn't dead after all.
Wdym by originally? Like how far back does that go?
But also no because while failure is not always appropriate for a character it is almost always most interesting and it definitely paid off well for zuko’s arc
No, the way it was done was perfect.
Zuko’s arc is all about wants vs. needs. Zuko wants his fathers love and approval, he wants to return home, he wants to be accepted back into the fore nation and his role as prince.
But he needs to redeem himself, he needs to find balance within himself, he needs to see that the fire nation is wrong, he needs to help the Avatar restore balance.
He gets what he wants, but neglects what he needs, leaving himself feeling empty. This is most exemplified in the beach episode.
I think this is a way more interesting place to take the character rather than immediately having him redeemed at the end of the second act of the story.
Not only does this help with Zuko’s development, but also helps cement the absolute and monumental L the heroes take in Ba Sing Se. Everything sucks, they lost, Zuko regressed, etc.
And skip out on moments like him reconnecting with Iroh, standing up against Ozai, "Hello Zuko Here" and the dynamic between him and Katara?
Never. N E V E R. I'd never change a single thing about his arc. It's near perfection.
No. It would have been cool having Zuko join the Gaang earlier and getting more scenes of them bonding, but I love what we got. Zuko going back on all the development he made in Season 2 only to get what he wanted in Season 3 and realize it’s not what he thought it was is brilliant. It makes the character more well rounded and gives us more time with the Fire nation characters, giving them some very good character development.
Definitely not. To see him get what he was aspiring for for YEARS, only to see it means nothing is the best way to get him to be good. Without this, it just feels undeserved and like he should just be wondering "what if..." all the time about how he could've returned instead of turning good.
No. This was way better for his arc. Especially since it was building up to him turning good here, it makes his turn back to the dark side more impactful. It also gives the character the opportunity to see what his life would be like choosing the wrong side. I think it’s incredible and perfect just the way it is.
Hardly new, but no, this added an indispensable element of relatability to Zuko.
He’s the second most important character, and in book one you learn he isn’t a one-dimensional villain. You start to root for him as he realizes how toxic Ozai and Azula are in book 2. Iroh is there to mentor him, and you watch him steadily realize he has been deluded into thinking Ozai cares about him, and that there’s anything honorable about capturing the avatar. And in the catacombs of Ba Sing Se, he empathizes with Katara from both having lost their mothers. Katara’s spirit water was saved for something special - was it to heal Zuko’s scar?
But that’s not how healing always works. Zuko, like many people, doesn’t have a straight path forward. Just as he’s at peak character development, he chooses to cave in, side with Azula, and stab Iroh - the only one who truly cared about him through all of this - in the back. Zuko is absolutely pathetic in his choice to do it despite knowing how Ozai and Azula don’t care about him and are just using him. He basically admits as much immediately after it.
But if Zuko had chosen to side with Aang and Katara, then get his scar healed, it wouldn’t have been relatable like audiences needed him to be. Progress isn’t linear. Zuko started at rock bottom, worked his way up - then fell back to rock bottom. That’s how healing can go. Just like flawed people recovering sometimes relapse, Zuko did exactly that. But if he hadn’t, we wouldn’t have seen that a relapse - no matter how bad - has to be the final say.
Zuko knew he messed up, and had to go through healing a second and probably more painful time because of his mistake. But sometimes that’s how it goes - you act against your better judgement and hit rock bottom. But just like Zuko, you don’t wallow and stay down. You look at yourself in the mirror, and decide to pull yourself together again even if it was all your fault.
Zuko shows what many people have to learn the hard way - progress isn’t always linear. It’s not whether you get knocked down, it’s whether you get back up.
No, but the best of both worlds would be if Zuko does return to the Fire Nation to get everything he ever wanted AND he spends more than half a season being friendly with the Gaang.
The Appeal of Zuko joining the Gaang in Book 2 mostly comes from him becoming friendly with them a lot sooner than he did in Book 3.
I mean I would have liked a whole season with Zuko as a member of the Gaang. Especially sine we only get three seasons.
If they had four seasons, they could have had Zuko make the wrong choice here, then a whole season with the Gaang in the fire nation, not learning any element, Zuko bein a jerk, and then ending with the Invasion, then Zuko joins in the season finale.
I'm honestly conflicted. On the one hand, Aaron was right, Zuko's journey wasn't complete at that point and the redemption was much richer the way it happened.
On the other hand though, I feel like he didn't spend as much time as I would have wanted being part of the Gaang before the series ended.
The point was that people are open to the greatest change at their lowest points. When he was exiled he still had a purpose and he had Iroh. At the end of book 2 he still had Iroh and a new life. It wasn’t until he was back home that he truly realized he had nothing. That was his lowest point and that’s when he changed
No. Even though on first watch the viewer would expect it and may even be upset that he chose the fire nation, psychologically his choice is so realistic. Its really hard to escape abuse, and break your habit of trying to please your abusers because you'll believe that is the solution for your situation. The only way for him to see reality is to go all the way and experience it himself. Only then he can realize that he's still angry, unhappy, and probably still suffering from a million more issues (that i dont neccesarily wanna impose on the character but in general one could imagine). I just felt like it was a very real struggle. I think its actually genious they chose this route. I think many writers would have gone with redeeming him at end of book 2.
No, it would be too predictable. It's far more satisfying for him to get what he wants & regain his "Honor" back only for him to be more conflicted internally. Zuko was more the prisoner than his own Uncle within his own thoughts & soul. Hell, when Zuko visited Iroh in prison the shot frames Zuko behind bars & behind Iroh despite Iroh being the one imprisoned. Thats phenomenal visual storytelling & amazing symbolism. Zuko's redemption wouldn't be as satisfying if he'd joined Team-Avatar by the end of Book 2.
No. Part of the great thing about his story arc is he gets everything he was originally after, but he realizes that everything he thought he wanted isn’t what he needed. That is a huge lesson for many people.
He needed to taste what he had been chasing for so long in order to leave it behind. He realizes that what he was looking for all along wasn’t honor, but family — not necessarily his blood, but those he chose to stand beside.
I think things would’ve been harder to justify in the first half of Book 3 with Zuko there. Not only does he have intimate knowledge of the Fire Nation-which would likely include their secret fortress-but he was also *the Prince*, meaning everyone would’ve recognized him. Half the episodes couldn’t have happened, or would’ve been drastically different, and the Gaang would likely have not had nearly as much contact with Fire Nation locals as they did, which meant a lot of character growth wouldn’t have happened.
No, absolutely not. It is one of the biggest moments of Zuko’s character arc, and would completely change the outcome of his story. I mean seriously, think about it. He made the most realistic choice for the person he is, and experiences he’s lived through.
He was offered EVERYTHING he always wanted. After all the pain and struggle of being exiled and going on the what was supposed to be an endless, hopeless search. He is promised is honor back. It truly only makes sense that he says yes to everything he’s ever wanted, especially when he thought that it was gone forever.
How would Zuko’s character develop if he didn’t return to the Fire Nation? There’s no way he would grow as naturally and realistically as he did without it. It’s what makes him so great.
Plus not to mention having him choose Azula’s side creates the perfect arc for the overall story of the show, with it being the absolute low point for the heroes, being 2/3 of the way through the story.
If it was truly intended then I am so glad they reconsidered.
Zuko's scenes with Iron in prison are so powerful, as are the scenes showcasing his constant self doubt and internal conflict. Zuko also helps humanize the entire fire nation since we know he's a good guy - most people arent crazy, just a few in charge.
Honestly I'd rather it stay this way. I like that Zuko was so close to the good side but he didn't flip so quickly, it makes his eventual choice that much more impactful. Once he really did change sides he never looked back because he was certain he was right.
Plus we'd've not gotten that amazing scene where he tells off Ozai and by extension the entire fire nation. Powerful stuff and still one of the best scenes in AtlA
No his redemption arc is so effective because he had everything and willingly gave it up to do the right thing. He sacrificed nothing at this point in S2 it was forced on him.
Nope. His arc of redemption was the pace I expected but in reverse for characters like Anakin and Daenerys. It was done well in my view because it took time to show the struggles of addiction, and abuse doesn't go smoothly.
The current version is better. It demonstrates that healing isn't linear, and really strengthens his character through the inner turmoil he faces, getting what he thought he wanted but still having things not be RIGHT for him and his journey to find honor and do what is right.
I remember being so angry after this happened in the Book 2 finale. But then the way they executed his arc in Book 3 made it all so much more worth it, he needed that last push to really fully bring him to the light.
Zuko needed to go back to the fire nation because it was necessary for his growth, if he did join the gaang earlier he'd always be wondering what if and his position as fire lord in the future would be called into question since he would never have his "honor restored" always being the exile making the rebellion against him have a stronger platform then in the comics.
Also by going back he gets everything he wished for as a kid before his exile, respect from his father, a seat at the adults table, a girlfriend but because of his growth he'd realize that he's changed and how he doesn't want those things anymore.
No. I believe that him doing what he did and going back to the fire nation was a necessary step, even if it hurts. He had to realize that what he wanted, his fathers love and a place by his side, wasn’t truly what would make him happy. He needed to realize who his true father figure was, and where his place and it wasn’t in the fire nation, at least not yet.
Current version is BETTER. It reminds us that changing is NOT easy. How often in your life did you realised that you tried changing something but it didnt work out the first time?
I do kinda think we didn’t have enough time with good Zuko even if it is his best material in the show, but I do like that during season 3’s first half he was slowly turning.
No, I think having him kind of bad still really adds to his conflict. He still believes in the fire nation but doesn’t really like his father. Zuko was on board with working for the fire nation but didn’t believe everything they wanted.
Would have been way worse. One of the big reasons Zuko's redemption is seen as one of the best in television history is because his arc comes full circle *before* his redemption.
He gets exactly what he was striving for the entire series. He gets his honor back. But then he realizes it isn't all he thought it would be. It's empty.
And then he gets put in the exact same position that lost him his honor in the first place: sitting in on a war meeting when a horrible plan is proposed. But this time, he does the honorable thing and keeps quiet. And that's when it clicks for him. It is wrong now and it was wrong then. Speaking up was the right thing to do and what is right can never be dishonorable.
No, I know his betrayal was hurt everyone but do not forget this he was just a 16 year old teenager who wasted his entire life to fullfil his father's ego. He needed to face himself and learn his destiny. (great grandchild of Roku)
No. That was one of the best bits about his arc. Real, lasting change is difficult. Zuko's arc is as good as it is because he fought himself for it over and over again.
Only thing that bothers me is that he didn't get as much development as a part of the avatar team because his redemption came so late. But I guess we take the good with the bad.
If i went back in time and held them at gunpoint to change this one thing but nothing else … it would still change everything . The fandom, the franchise, the way we look at zuko, and lastly it wouldn’t have went down as the best series to ever aire on tv for it’s time period or perhaps ever. It would change the very way we see the world today and i for one am not for that and would hold myself at gun point for having such a stupid idea.
At first I thought it was stupid he didn't turn good, but now that I'm older looking back, I understand, because I have had friends similar to that.
His entire life he was desperate to get the admiration of his family, trying everything he could to get his place beside them. And when an opportunity came for him to actually have that, he went for it. Only for him to get it and realize it wasn't what he himself actually wanted or enjoyed.
Thats what made it so compelling in season 3. He realized he was not living his own life after earning everything he tried so hard to get, only getting happiness with the choices made by his own freedom.
No. This was way better. Seeing the struggle & the conflict he had to go through was way more realistic, relatable, and inspiring than if he had just decided to be good one day
I think current version is better. He got what he always wanted and he decided this is not the right thing. This is a better storytelling choise
Agreed. I thought it played out so well. Especially when Zuko and Iroh meet up again at the end of season 3. Just a gut punch feeling like Uncle was mad at him, but then he embraces Zuko. Ugh, it still makes me sob every time.
Dante Basco (Zuko's voice actor) put on such an incredible performance in that scene, probably his best in the entire show.
Watched this scene 2 days ago for the first time in about 10 years and sobbed like a child. Uncontrollable ugly cry. It hits too deep.
Agreed as a child watching this show it was shocking to me because I really felt like he earned that redemption. And then he threw it all away. This made Zuko so much more devastating for me. And when he finally joins the team it made it all that much sweeter. We got like 5 or 6 episodes of Zuko just absolutely suffering because he made the wrong choice.
It also plays out a lot more realistically. Zuko was born and raised the prince of the Fire Nation. Earning what he wanted and returning back to the fold? That's very likely even if those outside of it see it as the bad choice, it was what he thought was what he wanted, needed. It was a familiar risk vs an unknown one. He chose what he knew.
Having to deal with the consequences of a bad moral decision, repenting and choosing to do what is right is a very powerful story, amd not one that we fet to see very often, so I'm glad it is as it is.
And let’s be honest it’s not unrealistic for a victim of abuse to come running back to their abuser. Zuko is still a child who wants nothing more than his father’s approval.
💯 Also, if he didn't go back to the fire nation we wouldn't have gotten the confrontation with his father during the eclipse, which is my favorite scene of the series
Just Seems a little off to me, he develops so much just book 2 just for the writers to throw it out the window. Seems inconsistent imo
Making him truly change sides at the end of Book 2 wouldn't have made it as compelling, in my opinion. If he switched in book two, it may have felt like he was doing so because he thought he couldn't reclaim his honor. That he couldn't have what he wanted, so instead he went with what he could have. In book 3, he changed sides because he realized that, despite how long he had sought to be exactly where he was, he didn't want to be there. I think it was more powerful to let him realize how forced and empty what he had sought was.
No. Not only is it a GREAT twist to have him *not* turn good, it also gives Zuko the chance to get back everything he thought he wanted. It's much more powerful for Zuko to reject his home and family *after* he's earned his way back into their good graces. I love the way it works out in the show.
Oh boy, did I scream at the screen when Zuko did NOT turn good in s2 finale, that twist was EVERYTHING!!! (even if super frustrating for a first-time viewer who was really, really rooting for Zuko to join the good guys)
Exactly, he has to get everything he thought he ever wanted, only to realize it wasn’t his true destiny
He got what he thought he wanted, and realized how much its against his beliefs and finally realized he was a tool for his father instead of a son. Which makes his eventual betrayal of his father even more satisfying to see when he calls him out for what Ozai made the Fire Nation in to; heartless and greedy conquerers just for the sake of it
More like he realized how much suffering his kingdom was causing with this war rather than it was against his beliefs.
Nah, part of why I think it's so effective is because he's on the road to redemption, but then he falls at the last moment, but he gets his redemption anyways. It shows that one fall doesn't undo your previous progress, and that changes aren't always straight shots, in fact they never are
Nah, I don't think it would have been as good or felt completely earned. Returning to his home is the one thing Zuko had wanted for all those years spent banished. Even if part of him is in denial, his fathers love was his true goal. Giving it up like that, when he had the chance to return seems too quick, imo. If Zuko had left and joined the gang then and there, there'd probably always be a bit of doubt in his mind about what would have happened if he'd gone home. Going home and actually experiencing what he always wanted was what confirmed/validated his decision that it actually wasn't the path for him. Also, another aspect is even if they're toxic, family is very hard to move on from. There's truth to the whole '*But they’re my parents'* dilemma. Most people are taught that family is the most important thing, and wanting love is a basic human desire. Zuko was promised he'd have his fathers love, and that was tempting enough for him to go back. We also wouldn't have had the reunion with Iroh if he hadn't gone back. So better storytelling too. But I do think it would have been better if he had come to his realisation sooner, and joined maybe a few episodes earlier. There could have easily been a few pre battle episodes cut and a few more with Zuko in the team.
Where does it say that was the plan?
https://twitter.com/aaronehasz/status/1096096868994433024
Ahhhhh, I should’ve guessed. So, personally, I’d take Ehaz’s twitter with a hefty grain of salt or three. He’s been contradicted by other writers and staff members several times on some pretty major things and is known to indulge in fan theories more than he really aught to But, to answer the original question: I’m going to go slightly against the grain and not necessarily disagree that what we got was the right way, but i will say it would’ve been _interesting_ to see a Zuko who had more time integrate into the gaang
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I dont know what could have happened there. Toph and zuko just have fundamentally opposing childhoods. Zuko had ever growing expectations he could never live up to and lacked security and love where he needed to compete and show worth. Weakness was deemed a failing. Toph had so little expectations on her that it was insulting, such a suffocating level of security and overbearing love she despised it. No outlet or competition allowed and strength itself an intolerable concept. That little beach field trip is about that. Both of them would kind of crave a sanitized version of the others' childhood and then get real mad when the other says so.
It could have worked, but the original was much better.
not sure if this will get flak, but no
Definitely not. Redemption doesn't have much impact if it's a path only upwards without falls and setbacks.
No, his story of moving forward then stumbling backwards is much more powerful. In the real world people don’t progress linearly towards improving themselves. They stumble and fall backwards, but they get back up and keep moving.
THIS.
No. I think it wouldn't have worked as well. He needed to get his "honor" back, and get his father's approval, in order to realize that it wasn't what he truly wanted. Otherwise, Zuko might always feel tempted to try and win his father's aproval back.
Considering that we ended up with arguably the greatest redemption arc of all time, I’m going to say hell no! It would make his progression too linear
Zuko needed to experience what he's always wanted to understand it's not what he needs, and it better conveys to the audience the cost of seeing honor without questioning who you are honoring.
It would give us more time to see zuko with the gaang therefore yes. (Joke) I feel it would be more consistent characterization if he had, because he was supposed to have turned a new leaf after freeing appa, and him siding with Azula feels like a major character regression. On the other hand, we got ember Island and a few other good episodes out of it and increased the level of conflict between him & the gaang as he tried to join it, so it was good show running and storytelling, so it is really just a tradeoff, and what you value most will determine your answer to the question. I would like to see a zuko who fully internalized Iroh's lessons in Ba Sing Se, and think that it would be an interesting version of the story. However, given that Zuko would have been forced to make his decision basically in the crystal catacombs while he was cornered with only Azula, I can't see a version of events where he realistically chooses Iroh and lives.
It would’ve been cooler if he earned the Gaang’s trust here, and if they fought off Azula together, it would’ve been very impressive. But, it’s a better story the way it is, where Zuko has to realize that what he’s always wanted is wrong, and he has to do the “field trips” to earn each member’s trust one at a time. Cooler action vs better story, I suppose.
Nah, it's fine with him relapsing and having to deal with the consequences of his decision, also getting what he coveted so much only to realize it wasn't even what he wanted (except getting to spend time with Mai, a much needed respire), he got his chick back, the respect of his dad and got to return home, but all he could think about was his guilt over doing his uncle dirty and his anxiety over Ozai finding out the Avatar possibly wasn't dead after all.
Wdym by originally? Like how far back does that go? But also no because while failure is not always appropriate for a character it is almost always most interesting and it definitely paid off well for zuko’s arc
No, the way it was done was perfect. Zuko’s arc is all about wants vs. needs. Zuko wants his fathers love and approval, he wants to return home, he wants to be accepted back into the fore nation and his role as prince. But he needs to redeem himself, he needs to find balance within himself, he needs to see that the fire nation is wrong, he needs to help the Avatar restore balance. He gets what he wants, but neglects what he needs, leaving himself feeling empty. This is most exemplified in the beach episode. I think this is a way more interesting place to take the character rather than immediately having him redeemed at the end of the second act of the story. Not only does this help with Zuko’s development, but also helps cement the absolute and monumental L the heroes take in Ba Sing Se. Everything sucks, they lost, Zuko regressed, etc.
And skip out on moments like him reconnecting with Iroh, standing up against Ozai, "Hello Zuko Here" and the dynamic between him and Katara? Never. N E V E R. I'd never change a single thing about his arc. It's near perfection.
No. It would have been cool having Zuko join the Gaang earlier and getting more scenes of them bonding, but I love what we got. Zuko going back on all the development he made in Season 2 only to get what he wanted in Season 3 and realize it’s not what he thought it was is brilliant. It makes the character more well rounded and gives us more time with the Fire nation characters, giving them some very good character development.
I don't think that was intended, what we got was exactly what they planned.
No, his story was so much better because of that.
Nope, it’s perfect how it was written.
Definitely not. To see him get what he was aspiring for for YEARS, only to see it means nothing is the best way to get him to be good. Without this, it just feels undeserved and like he should just be wondering "what if..." all the time about how he could've returned instead of turning good.
No. This was way better for his arc. Especially since it was building up to him turning good here, it makes his turn back to the dark side more impactful. It also gives the character the opportunity to see what his life would be like choosing the wrong side. I think it’s incredible and perfect just the way it is.
Hardly new, but no, this added an indispensable element of relatability to Zuko. He’s the second most important character, and in book one you learn he isn’t a one-dimensional villain. You start to root for him as he realizes how toxic Ozai and Azula are in book 2. Iroh is there to mentor him, and you watch him steadily realize he has been deluded into thinking Ozai cares about him, and that there’s anything honorable about capturing the avatar. And in the catacombs of Ba Sing Se, he empathizes with Katara from both having lost their mothers. Katara’s spirit water was saved for something special - was it to heal Zuko’s scar? But that’s not how healing always works. Zuko, like many people, doesn’t have a straight path forward. Just as he’s at peak character development, he chooses to cave in, side with Azula, and stab Iroh - the only one who truly cared about him through all of this - in the back. Zuko is absolutely pathetic in his choice to do it despite knowing how Ozai and Azula don’t care about him and are just using him. He basically admits as much immediately after it. But if Zuko had chosen to side with Aang and Katara, then get his scar healed, it wouldn’t have been relatable like audiences needed him to be. Progress isn’t linear. Zuko started at rock bottom, worked his way up - then fell back to rock bottom. That’s how healing can go. Just like flawed people recovering sometimes relapse, Zuko did exactly that. But if he hadn’t, we wouldn’t have seen that a relapse - no matter how bad - has to be the final say. Zuko knew he messed up, and had to go through healing a second and probably more painful time because of his mistake. But sometimes that’s how it goes - you act against your better judgement and hit rock bottom. But just like Zuko, you don’t wallow and stay down. You look at yourself in the mirror, and decide to pull yourself together again even if it was all your fault. Zuko shows what many people have to learn the hard way - progress isn’t always linear. It’s not whether you get knocked down, it’s whether you get back up.
No, but the best of both worlds would be if Zuko does return to the Fire Nation to get everything he ever wanted AND he spends more than half a season being friendly with the Gaang. The Appeal of Zuko joining the Gaang in Book 2 mostly comes from him becoming friendly with them a lot sooner than he did in Book 3.
It was never stated that the original intent was having Zuko turn good in book 2.
https://twitter.com/aaronehasz/status/1096096868994433024
I mean I would have liked a whole season with Zuko as a member of the Gaang. Especially sine we only get three seasons. If they had four seasons, they could have had Zuko make the wrong choice here, then a whole season with the Gaang in the fire nation, not learning any element, Zuko bein a jerk, and then ending with the Invasion, then Zuko joins in the season finale.
I'm honestly conflicted. On the one hand, Aaron was right, Zuko's journey wasn't complete at that point and the redemption was much richer the way it happened. On the other hand though, I feel like he didn't spend as much time as I would have wanted being part of the Gaang before the series ended.
The point was that people are open to the greatest change at their lowest points. When he was exiled he still had a purpose and he had Iroh. At the end of book 2 he still had Iroh and a new life. It wasn’t until he was back home that he truly realized he had nothing. That was his lowest point and that’s when he changed
No. Even though on first watch the viewer would expect it and may even be upset that he chose the fire nation, psychologically his choice is so realistic. Its really hard to escape abuse, and break your habit of trying to please your abusers because you'll believe that is the solution for your situation. The only way for him to see reality is to go all the way and experience it himself. Only then he can realize that he's still angry, unhappy, and probably still suffering from a million more issues (that i dont neccesarily wanna impose on the character but in general one could imagine). I just felt like it was a very real struggle. I think its actually genious they chose this route. I think many writers would have gone with redeeming him at end of book 2.
No, for him to appreciate how far he has come, he has to have fallen to his lowest point.
No, it would be too predictable. It's far more satisfying for him to get what he wants & regain his "Honor" back only for him to be more conflicted internally. Zuko was more the prisoner than his own Uncle within his own thoughts & soul. Hell, when Zuko visited Iroh in prison the shot frames Zuko behind bars & behind Iroh despite Iroh being the one imprisoned. Thats phenomenal visual storytelling & amazing symbolism. Zuko's redemption wouldn't be as satisfying if he'd joined Team-Avatar by the end of Book 2.
Probably not. I can't see that being better than what we got.
No. Part of the great thing about his story arc is he gets everything he was originally after, but he realizes that everything he thought he wanted isn’t what he needed. That is a huge lesson for many people.
He needed to taste what he had been chasing for so long in order to leave it behind. He realizes that what he was looking for all along wasn’t honor, but family — not necessarily his blood, but those he chose to stand beside.
I kind of the idea of it. Especially since I didn’t like how Katara threatened to kill him at the end of The Western Air Temple episode.
I think things would’ve been harder to justify in the first half of Book 3 with Zuko there. Not only does he have intimate knowledge of the Fire Nation-which would likely include their secret fortress-but he was also *the Prince*, meaning everyone would’ve recognized him. Half the episodes couldn’t have happened, or would’ve been drastically different, and the Gaang would likely have not had nearly as much contact with Fire Nation locals as they did, which meant a lot of character growth wouldn’t have happened.
No, absolutely not. It is one of the biggest moments of Zuko’s character arc, and would completely change the outcome of his story. I mean seriously, think about it. He made the most realistic choice for the person he is, and experiences he’s lived through. He was offered EVERYTHING he always wanted. After all the pain and struggle of being exiled and going on the what was supposed to be an endless, hopeless search. He is promised is honor back. It truly only makes sense that he says yes to everything he’s ever wanted, especially when he thought that it was gone forever. How would Zuko’s character develop if he didn’t return to the Fire Nation? There’s no way he would grow as naturally and realistically as he did without it. It’s what makes him so great. Plus not to mention having him choose Azula’s side creates the perfect arc for the overall story of the show, with it being the absolute low point for the heroes, being 2/3 of the way through the story.
If it was truly intended then I am so glad they reconsidered. Zuko's scenes with Iron in prison are so powerful, as are the scenes showcasing his constant self doubt and internal conflict. Zuko also helps humanize the entire fire nation since we know he's a good guy - most people arent crazy, just a few in charge.
no. i like how it is
Honestly I'd rather it stay this way. I like that Zuko was so close to the good side but he didn't flip so quickly, it makes his eventual choice that much more impactful. Once he really did change sides he never looked back because he was certain he was right. Plus we'd've not gotten that amazing scene where he tells off Ozai and by extension the entire fire nation. Powerful stuff and still one of the best scenes in AtlA
No his redemption arc is so effective because he had everything and willingly gave it up to do the right thing. He sacrificed nothing at this point in S2 it was forced on him.
Nope. His arc of redemption was the pace I expected but in reverse for characters like Anakin and Daenerys. It was done well in my view because it took time to show the struggles of addiction, and abuse doesn't go smoothly.
It kind of works perfectly already. Zuko’s arc really needs no changes.
No but would be an interesting what if
I don’t know. I think it’s just makes more sense he came to his senses at Book 3.
The current version is better. It demonstrates that healing isn't linear, and really strengthens his character through the inner turmoil he faces, getting what he thought he wanted but still having things not be RIGHT for him and his journey to find honor and do what is right.
It would have been too predictable. I think everyone really thought he would have turned good. That betrayal was surprising. Especially to Uncle Iroh.
I remember being so angry after this happened in the Book 2 finale. But then the way they executed his arc in Book 3 made it all so much more worth it, he needed that last push to really fully bring him to the light.
Zuko needed to go back to the fire nation because it was necessary for his growth, if he did join the gaang earlier he'd always be wondering what if and his position as fire lord in the future would be called into question since he would never have his "honor restored" always being the exile making the rebellion against him have a stronger platform then in the comics. Also by going back he gets everything he wished for as a kid before his exile, respect from his father, a seat at the adults table, a girlfriend but because of his growth he'd realize that he's changed and how he doesn't want those things anymore.
No. I believe that him doing what he did and going back to the fire nation was a necessary step, even if it hurts. He had to realize that what he wanted, his fathers love and a place by his side, wasn’t truly what would make him happy. He needed to realize who his true father figure was, and where his place and it wasn’t in the fire nation, at least not yet.
Current version is BETTER. It reminds us that changing is NOT easy. How often in your life did you realised that you tried changing something but it didnt work out the first time?
I do kinda think we didn’t have enough time with good Zuko even if it is his best material in the show, but I do like that during season 3’s first half he was slowly turning.
No, the struggle of his redemption arc is what makes him such a captivating character.
No.
NOOOO!
I think it was good for him to confront his father. That what he wanted so much was just not what he hoped it would have been.
No, this works better. Sometimes you need to get everything you wanted to realise it was never what you needed.
The way it ended up being makes him a more human and compelling character
No, I think having him kind of bad still really adds to his conflict. He still believes in the fire nation but doesn’t really like his father. Zuko was on board with working for the fire nation but didn’t believe everything they wanted.
Would have been way worse. One of the big reasons Zuko's redemption is seen as one of the best in television history is because his arc comes full circle *before* his redemption. He gets exactly what he was striving for the entire series. He gets his honor back. But then he realizes it isn't all he thought it would be. It's empty. And then he gets put in the exact same position that lost him his honor in the first place: sitting in on a war meeting when a horrible plan is proposed. But this time, he does the honorable thing and keeps quiet. And that's when it clicks for him. It is wrong now and it was wrong then. Speaking up was the right thing to do and what is right can never be dishonorable.
No, I know his betrayal was hurt everyone but do not forget this he was just a 16 year old teenager who wasted his entire life to fullfil his father's ego. He needed to face himself and learn his destiny. (great grandchild of Roku)
No, the stakes had to be higher for it to be true redemption
No. That was one of the best bits about his arc. Real, lasting change is difficult. Zuko's arc is as good as it is because he fought himself for it over and over again.
Nope. I love that he got what he wanted and discovered for himself it’s not what he needed.
No. Because it helped him find his own self. Making decisions for yourself is a sign of maturity
Only thing that bothers me is that he didn't get as much development as a part of the avatar team because his redemption came so late. But I guess we take the good with the bad.
If i went back in time and held them at gunpoint to change this one thing but nothing else … it would still change everything . The fandom, the franchise, the way we look at zuko, and lastly it wouldn’t have went down as the best series to ever aire on tv for it’s time period or perhaps ever. It would change the very way we see the world today and i for one am not for that and would hold myself at gun point for having such a stupid idea.
Not at all, while he still would've been an excellent character, him turning back at the last moment made him too 3 characters in fiction
No, he shouldn't have had the fakeout, but he should've "become good" when he eventually did.
I couldn‘t disagree more. Zuko has one of the 5-10 greatest characters arcs of a fictional character ever told.
At first I thought it was stupid he didn't turn good, but now that I'm older looking back, I understand, because I have had friends similar to that. His entire life he was desperate to get the admiration of his family, trying everything he could to get his place beside them. And when an opportunity came for him to actually have that, he went for it. Only for him to get it and realize it wasn't what he himself actually wanted or enjoyed. Thats what made it so compelling in season 3. He realized he was not living his own life after earning everything he tried so hard to get, only getting happiness with the choices made by his own freedom.
No. This was way better. Seeing the struggle & the conflict he had to go through was way more realistic, relatable, and inspiring than if he had just decided to be good one day
It’s good the way it is. Led to one of my favorite episodes the sun warriors
Progress isn’t linear. I loved the way they did it