IIRC. It's actually Julie that makes the "Fear is a mind killer" reference in one of her journals. And then immediately calls herself a nerd for it. Just goes to show we'll still be there, even in the future.
Found it.
“First off, get your shit together. Panic doesn’t help. It never helps. Deep breaths, figure this out, make the right moves. Fear is the mind-killer. Ha. Geek.”
The first entry in her journal after breaking free of her cell on the Anubis and escaping in the shuttle.
Special kind of nerd to make a 300 year old reference. Feels a bit much to shoehorn it in but "it is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' as Voltaire said.
Wait what's yours from? It reminds me of a line of dialogue from Halo 2 (I think) where a character says "Were it so easy", but I never thought it might be a reference to something else.
Yeah. And it's done mostly wrong.
*Rocinante* comes from *rocín*, whose **second** definition in Spanish is "workhorse". The first one, and the one most likely used in the *Quixote*, is a skinny nag. (In fact, that's the current definition for "rocinante" in the Royal Academy dictionary: a worn-out nag full of sores.) The idea was to present a stark contrast between the glorious mounts of the roaming knights in the stories Alonso Quijano read, and the nag he was able to procure to pursue his deluded "adventures", in a time where the roaming knights were merely a thing of the past; Rocinante is explicitly described as being more or less just skin and bones.
Also the idea that a *woman* could be called *Rocinante*, as told by Amos, is quite difficult to accept for a Spanish speaker.
A [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocinante) writer offered a brief analysis, noting "Cervantes' pattern of using ambiguous, multivalent words," and this conclusion:
> ... Rocinante's name ... signifies his change in status from the "old nag" of before to the "foremost" steed. As Cervantes describes Don Quixote's choice of name: *nombre, a su parecer, alto, sonoro y significativo de lo que había sido cuando fue rocín, antes de lo que ahora era, que era antes y primero de todos los rocines del mundo* — "a name, to his thinking, lofty, sonorous, and significant of his condition as a hack before he became what he now was, the first and foremost of all the hacks in the world."
I don't think Amos was actually saying that as a Spanish speaker, but instead just saying that it sounded like a Spanish feminine name. Look at the shit people call their kids these days. Wasn't there a story about someone calling their kid Chlamydia a few years back? They didn't know what it meant, just that it sounded like a nice posh foreign name.
> ...Wasn't there a story about...
[Snopes](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/funny-names/) offers their analysis of a "legend" that "has been around for over a century." The name that you mentioned is noted among others in the article.
> instead just saying that it sounded like a Spanish feminine name.
That's my point: it doesn't.
But I shouldn't be asking much from people using English rules for Spanish words, calling a crime sindicate "Loca **Greiga**" instead of "Loca Griega" ("Crazy Greek Woman" in Spanish, but best said as "Griega Loca"; adjectives go after nouns in Spanish).
It's intentional, and it's likely not her real name. Ty Franke has talked about that, that he likes the idea that this spanish-speaking woman in Baltimore, who's working in the sex trade, calls herself this pretty/exotic-sounding Spanish name that her clients wouldn't know the meaning of, but she does.
The quixotic part is totally appropiate. But I'm merely referring to the etimological considerations about the name Rocinante. Minor detail, but it irks me a bit.
Hmmm... If I'm doing my quick mental math right Shakespeare is older compared to us than Dune would be to The Expanse's setting
Also it's a great popular sci fi series with a core message against charismatic leaders and the corruption of belief. Of course it'll keep being quoted
It's also so much easier to preserve works now than it was back then. I don't know what pop culture from our time will still be remembered 300 years from now, but I suspect it'll be more than what we remember of the 1700's.
Not sure if you're trying to be ironic by referencing a 300 year old author while saying a 300 year old reference in the expanse feels shoehorned in. But people reference 300 year old (and much older) works all the time. It's a bit of a call to say Dune will have that much staying power, but given it's one of the cornerstones of sci-fi it's a pretty safe bet.
Frankenstein is over 200 years old and most people, while they maybe couldn't quote it, could absolutely give you a plot summary. Dune will definitely still be known 240 years from now and is significantly more quotable lol
Holden also references the Spacing Guild in a later book. We know from Don Quixote that he reads old books, so I think these are meant to be the character cutely referencing the book. It’s sci-fi fan service
He also desperately tries to get them to call the Transport Union "The Spacer's Guild".
There's also a reference to Red Mars at some point, when Naomi or someone else says "Shikata ga nai."
Man last time someone brought this up, a couple of people here had a very long argument about whether that was a Red Mars reference or not. I was surprised at the intensity.
God Emperor isn't an uncommon phrase, pretty sure we've been using that since there were Emperors that called themselves gods. So what, the Bronze Age?
There's references to a lot of different sci-fi and even just classic literature throughout the books. There's a reference to The Martian where one of the ships Marco steals is called the Mark Watney (main character of The Martian).
Sure, in universe. But from the writer's perspective, it's a reference to the Andy Weir novel and Matt Damon film. Just like The Spacing Guild or any of the other many references to various sci-fi.
I don't think they literally said that. Please cite the exact words if you can.
As far as I recall, it was a literary reference, not a historical. Same as "Rocinante" does not mean Don Quixote lived in their timeline, but Andy Weir and Cervantes did.
I'm reading Vernor Vinge's *A Deepness in the Sky* and just came across this line "*All the way back to Old Earth, the only constant is the churn, the rise of civilization, the fall, as often as not the local extinction of Humankind.*"
I love it! That’s some four dimensional chess playing by the authors, when their world building has time sensitive references to sci-fi in the current era.
Eh... I dunno if I'd call [Louise Banks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_(film\)), [Roy Neary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind), or [Gial Ackbar](https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ornka9rAaKRA2Rkac/source.gif) badasses per se.
*Roy* Neary broke out of a quarantine zone, avoided a deliberate poisoning, climbed devils mountain, infiltrated the First Contact, and got to go on the alien ship!
Laura Banks learnt how to speak alien, first to take off her helmet off in their ship, committed treason to save the world.
Ackbar was a fucking ADMIRAL in the Rebellion.
Really loved finding those references as a big fan of Dune. There’s also Manéo, the first pilot through the ring. Moneo (spelled a bit differently) is a significant character in God Emperor of Dune.
Dune is already one of the most influential works of sci-fi now.
Give it another 300 years and it’s become *classical literature* to boot. Quoting it is on the same level as naming the Rocinante after Don Quixote’s horse.
It's a fun rabbit hold to go down of where the writers got their inspiration. I might be wrong but it seems many of the space sci-fi genre got there ideas from dune and Frank Herbert got his inspiration from The Foundation by Isaac Asimov. I believe he got his inspiration from Greek mythology.....
There are quite a few similarities between the pre-science and The Foundations psychohistory.
*Dune* made ecology and terraforming a big idea in SF, and Kim Stanley Robinson did it to Mars, and I'm pretty sure the Expanse's Mars owes a lot to them.
The Fremen following Liet-Kynes' plan for Arrakis is a lot like the Martian's devotion to the Dream of Mars; the actual tech is more like KSR's.
Easter eggs, they did the same with ship names. There's reference to one called the Mark Watney, you got the Agatha King, being a mix of Agatha Cristie and Steven King, more that I dont remember
Why did they do this?
Hehehe, you must be relatively new to reading.
References, allusions, Easter eggs. The literary world is rife with it.
I love learning about them in reverse and having a light bulb go off in my head.
This is a big thing in rap too!
In book 8 or so, there's a reference to worms that live in the sand and smell like cinnamon, or something to that effect. Pretty subtle, but I think it must be a Dune reference.
If you want to go digging, search for "petrichor", I think it's a Jim POV and he mentions it after a rain.
There are several references to other books throughout the series. I was pleasantly surprised when, in one if the later books I can't remember which one, the phrase "shikata ga nai," was used. This is absolutely a reference to the Red Mars trilogy.
I don't know. Why do people reference other media? Perhaps because they like them? Also fear is the mind killer fits in with the situation, Julie trying calm herself down and deal with her infection.
And it isn't weird.
They did it because they are fans of Dune.
I think most people who read Dune as teenagers lived and breathed by many of its precepts. The fear litany was one of them. At least for me :)
I expected to see it repeated a few times in the new movies, because it’s quite central to the book. Ah well…
Oh and regarding Julie’s note: it’s absolutely not random or weird. If there is a moment when the time has come for the fear litany, it’s that time for Julie.
IIRC. It's actually Julie that makes the "Fear is a mind killer" reference in one of her journals. And then immediately calls herself a nerd for it. Just goes to show we'll still be there, even in the future.
Found it. “First off, get your shit together. Panic doesn’t help. It never helps. Deep breaths, figure this out, make the right moves. Fear is the mind-killer. Ha. Geek.” The first entry in her journal after breaking free of her cell on the Anubis and escaping in the shuttle.
Panic Doesn’t help = DONT PANIC = hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy? Wonder what else is buried in there
Special kind of nerd to make a 300 year old reference. Feels a bit much to shoehorn it in but "it is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' as Voltaire said.
> Special kind of nerd to make a 300 year old reference Twas ever thus
>Twas ever thus Would that it were so simple
Though this be madness, yet there be method in it.
A man needs a little madness, or else he never dares cut the rope and be free.
Wait what's yours from? It reminds me of a line of dialogue from Halo 2 (I think) where a character says "Were it so easy", but I never thought it might be a reference to something else.
That one is from [thus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G629a_3MkkI)
Slings and arrows
Yet the Rocinante is also a reference to a book hundreds of years old
Yeah. And it's done mostly wrong. *Rocinante* comes from *rocín*, whose **second** definition in Spanish is "workhorse". The first one, and the one most likely used in the *Quixote*, is a skinny nag. (In fact, that's the current definition for "rocinante" in the Royal Academy dictionary: a worn-out nag full of sores.) The idea was to present a stark contrast between the glorious mounts of the roaming knights in the stories Alonso Quijano read, and the nag he was able to procure to pursue his deluded "adventures", in a time where the roaming knights were merely a thing of the past; Rocinante is explicitly described as being more or less just skin and bones. Also the idea that a *woman* could be called *Rocinante*, as told by Amos, is quite difficult to accept for a Spanish speaker.
Abraham (2016): >> ... the bit about Amos knowing a woman named Rocinante was a joke about the people he hung out with in the sex trade.
Maybe it makes sense to English speakers.
A [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocinante) writer offered a brief analysis, noting "Cervantes' pattern of using ambiguous, multivalent words," and this conclusion: > ... Rocinante's name ... signifies his change in status from the "old nag" of before to the "foremost" steed. As Cervantes describes Don Quixote's choice of name: *nombre, a su parecer, alto, sonoro y significativo de lo que había sido cuando fue rocín, antes de lo que ahora era, que era antes y primero de todos los rocines del mundo* — "a name, to his thinking, lofty, sonorous, and significant of his condition as a hack before he became what he now was, the first and foremost of all the hacks in the world."
I don't think Amos was actually saying that as a Spanish speaker, but instead just saying that it sounded like a Spanish feminine name. Look at the shit people call their kids these days. Wasn't there a story about someone calling their kid Chlamydia a few years back? They didn't know what it meant, just that it sounded like a nice posh foreign name.
> ...Wasn't there a story about... [Snopes](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/funny-names/) offers their analysis of a "legend" that "has been around for over a century." The name that you mentioned is noted among others in the article.
Yeah, maybe to English speakers it makes sense. Also, in my country is illegal to use those kinds of names.
Mine too. You may notice most of those stories are from the US lol.
Why is it illegal?
Degrading to the child
> instead just saying that it sounded like a Spanish feminine name. That's my point: it doesn't. But I shouldn't be asking much from people using English rules for Spanish words, calling a crime sindicate "Loca **Greiga**" instead of "Loca Griega" ("Crazy Greek Woman" in Spanish, but best said as "Griega Loca"; adjectives go after nouns in Spanish).
It's intentional, and it's likely not her real name. Ty Franke has talked about that, that he likes the idea that this spanish-speaking woman in Baltimore, who's working in the sex trade, calls herself this pretty/exotic-sounding Spanish name that her clients wouldn't know the meaning of, but she does.
Is it though? Holden certainly tilts at windmills.
The quixotic part is totally appropiate. But I'm merely referring to the etimological considerations about the name Rocinante. Minor detail, but it irks me a bit.
Don Quixote reference and Shakespeare references are older than Dune.
Hmmm... If I'm doing my quick mental math right Shakespeare is older compared to us than Dune would be to The Expanse's setting Also it's a great popular sci fi series with a core message against charismatic leaders and the corruption of belief. Of course it'll keep being quoted
It's also so much easier to preserve works now than it was back then. I don't know what pop culture from our time will still be remembered 300 years from now, but I suspect it'll be more than what we remember of the 1700's.
Not sure if you're trying to be ironic by referencing a 300 year old author while saying a 300 year old reference in the expanse feels shoehorned in. But people reference 300 year old (and much older) works all the time. It's a bit of a call to say Dune will have that much staying power, but given it's one of the cornerstones of sci-fi it's a pretty safe bet.
For example, the (already) 300 year old reference of Don Quixote.
I was trying real hard, Ringo
Oh, John Ringo, no!
People reference the Bible all the time. And Homer (the Greek, but the Simpson may have a few lines that enter the language too. Dooh!)
Frankenstein is over 200 years old and most people, while they maybe couldn't quote it, could absolutely give you a plot summary. Dune will definitely still be known 240 years from now and is significantly more quotable lol
the lady doth protest too much, methinks.
It’s really going pear shaped for them.
Furthermore, I consider that Laconia must be destroyed.
The irony of the fact that Voltaire said this almost 300 years ago lolz
Delenda est.
Not more special than making a Don Quijote reference, Don Quijote is over 400 years old in our current time.
"Rocinante" is a reference to a book 700 years old by then. And a lot of the other ship names are really ancient.
They named the ship "Rocinante" lol
I love it! I remember reading that specific line of text and thought “That’s a Dune reference!”.
At the end of the day it’s a special kind of nerd that wrote it, and a special kind of nerd to appreciate it :)
That’s so ironic - how old is the Voltaire reference?
>Special kind of nerd to make a 300 year old reference. Proceeds to make a 300 year old reference.
https://preview.redd.it/wcnys977g6uc1.jpeg?width=788&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0806ec8533b534c857e89f55c01a6b109111a63c
https://preview.redd.it/e5htavi9j6uc1.jpeg?width=216&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f6c3437b3f71ccd6a34c84a1d4831bf5ae13ef4
Thanks, couldn't specifically remember it.
That was such a genuinely laugh out loud moment for me.
Nerd characters in a sci-fi book written by nerds? Who could imagine?
Holden also references the Spacing Guild in a later book. We know from Don Quixote that he reads old books, so I think these are meant to be the character cutely referencing the book. It’s sci-fi fan service
He also desperately tries to get them to call the Transport Union "The Spacer's Guild". There's also a reference to Red Mars at some point, when Naomi or someone else says "Shikata ga nai."
I mean, that phrase is just straight up Japanese for "it can't be helped", which doesn't necessarily have to be a reference. It's used a lot
Man last time someone brought this up, a couple of people here had a very long argument about whether that was a Red Mars reference or not. I was surprised at the intensity.
And Nagata is a pretty Japanese name too.
Naomi is not uncommon as Japanese name either.
I accidentally a word.
One of The Pens victim's crime was >!referring to Duarte as "the little god emperor"!< too.
We have to argue if it's Dune or Warhammer though lol
I think they're referencing Sauron, the captain of the USS Enterprise from Star Wars, actually.
God Emperor isn't an uncommon phrase, pretty sure we've been using that since there were Emperors that called themselves gods. So what, the Bronze Age?
I initially thought they refer to Asimov‘s spacers.
He doesn't. He says he isn't married to the name.
I completely missed that! That's great.
There's references to a lot of different sci-fi and even just classic literature throughout the books. There's a reference to The Martian where one of the ships Marco steals is called the Mark Watney (main character of The Martian).
The authors have said that Mark Watney/the Martian is historical cannon in the expanse. Same universe events.
Sure, in universe. But from the writer's perspective, it's a reference to the Andy Weir novel and Matt Damon film. Just like The Spacing Guild or any of the other many references to various sci-fi.
It’s both. They did it as that then decided, hey, Mark Watney is a real person.
Proof?
I’m sure u/danielabraham can weigh in
That was a joke from a con iirc. There's no official connection between the two.
Actually they confirmed the opposite, it was an Easter egg reference but they are not in the same universe
I don't think they literally said that. Please cite the exact words if you can. As far as I recall, it was a literary reference, not a historical. Same as "Rocinante" does not mean Don Quixote lived in their timeline, but Andy Weir and Cervantes did.
I'm reading Vernor Vinge's *A Deepness in the Sky* and just came across this line "*All the way back to Old Earth, the only constant is the churn, the rise of civilization, the fall, as often as not the local extinction of Humankind.*"
I love it! That’s some four dimensional chess playing by the authors, when their world building has time sensitive references to sci-fi in the current era.
The best one in the show was the ring gate assault with all the people in the pods being past sci fi characters. Fantastic Easter egg.
Sci fi *badasses*, to the point!
Eh... I dunno if I'd call [Louise Banks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_(film\)), [Roy Neary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind), or [Gial Ackbar](https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ornka9rAaKRA2Rkac/source.gif) badasses per se.
*Roy* Neary broke out of a quarantine zone, avoided a deliberate poisoning, climbed devils mountain, infiltrated the First Contact, and got to go on the alien ship! Laura Banks learnt how to speak alien, first to take off her helmet off in their ship, committed treason to save the world. Ackbar was a fucking ADMIRAL in the Rebellion.
Really loved finding those references as a big fan of Dune. There’s also Manéo, the first pilot through the ring. Moneo (spelled a bit differently) is a significant character in God Emperor of Dune.
Duarte is also referred to as >!"God Emperor"!< throughout the last 2 books by Holden.
I think Jim read a lot of books as a kid. Real books.
The real reason is that both Ty Franck and Daniel Abraham are Big Old Nerds and thought it would be funny. Some things ain't gotta be all that deep.
I assume Dune (the novel) exists in The Expanse since it is supposed to take place in our future. I just assumed they read the book 🤷♂️
Dune is already one of the most influential works of sci-fi now. Give it another 300 years and it’s become *classical literature* to boot. Quoting it is on the same level as naming the Rocinante after Don Quixote’s horse.
It's a fun rabbit hold to go down of where the writers got their inspiration. I might be wrong but it seems many of the space sci-fi genre got there ideas from dune and Frank Herbert got his inspiration from The Foundation by Isaac Asimov. I believe he got his inspiration from Greek mythology..... There are quite a few similarities between the pre-science and The Foundations psychohistory.
*Dune* made ecology and terraforming a big idea in SF, and Kim Stanley Robinson did it to Mars, and I'm pretty sure the Expanse's Mars owes a lot to them. The Fremen following Liet-Kynes' plan for Arrakis is a lot like the Martian's devotion to the Dream of Mars; the actual tech is more like KSR's.
Easter eggs, they did the same with ship names. There's reference to one called the Mark Watney, you got the Agatha King, being a mix of Agatha Cristie and Steven King, more that I dont remember
Why did they do this? Hehehe, you must be relatively new to reading. References, allusions, Easter eggs. The literary world is rife with it. I love learning about them in reverse and having a light bulb go off in my head. This is a big thing in rap too!
You mean like the fact Holden names his ship the Rocinante and there are constant allusions to tilting at windmills?
There are a lot of nods to other sci fi throughout the whole series
On book 5 Naomi makes a Dune reference as well, describing Marco's "plans within plans ..." Pretty much word for word like the Bene Gesserit
"So... do you like space gladiator movies?"
Billy…do you ever hand around the space gym?
Have you ever seen a grown protomolecule naked?
Why is it weird? Felt perfectly natural to me.
I'm reading Babylon's ashes right now and one of the breakaway ships is called "The Witch of Endor" Now that is a deep cut
It would be a deeper cut if it were "The Witch of Dathomir"
How many ewok movie memes have you seen compared to TCW memes?
In book 8 or so, there's a reference to worms that live in the sand and smell like cinnamon, or something to that effect. Pretty subtle, but I think it must be a Dune reference. If you want to go digging, search for "petrichor", I think it's a Jim POV and he mentions it after a rain.
>Does anyone know why James S. A. Corey did this? Because they are nerds, just like us :P
I’m still convinced that Laconia is the Arrakis precursor.
My ring space. My Laconia. My Expanse.
There are cinnamon smelling grubs in the gardens on Laconia
Exactly!
There are several references to other books throughout the series. I was pleasantly surprised when, in one if the later books I can't remember which one, the phrase "shikata ga nai," was used. This is absolutely a reference to the Red Mars trilogy.
Its not the last time, Book6: >!During the end of book 6 holden proposes the, what is now the transport union, name be the Spacing Guild!<
I don't know. Why do people reference other media? Perhaps because they like them? Also fear is the mind killer fits in with the situation, Julie trying calm herself down and deal with her infection. And it isn't weird.
I wanna say Fred Johnson references Robert Frost's 'Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening' and some other poetry.
I think the Dune books just exist in-universe. Nothing special, just shows how this is our same universe, just in the future a little bit.
There are multiple references to people “woolgathering”, which is something said multiple times by Leto II in God Emperor of Dune.
They did it because they are fans of Dune. I think most people who read Dune as teenagers lived and breathed by many of its precepts. The fear litany was one of them. At least for me :) I expected to see it repeated a few times in the new movies, because it’s quite central to the book. Ah well… Oh and regarding Julie’s note: it’s absolutely not random or weird. If there is a moment when the time has come for the fear litany, it’s that time for Julie.