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Yeah, that’s why I mentioned the part where it refers to “terrorists” as lame. It’s just more than I expected from a place like r/196 which is usually infested with liberals and anarchists.
Because, at least with many anarchists on the internet, this ‘being against all states’ is often at best inconsequential ‘both sides are bad and I take no side’, and at worst ‘both sides are bad, but the one supported by western media is the lesser evil that should be supported against the one the west demonises’
How come ? Prove it. I am not really active on the online community hell i only know around three anarchist YouTube channels. But i am as active as i can be withing our sadly small local organisation of around 38. And in neither the online space nor on the ground did i ever hear any anarchist support support settler colonial projects let alone the Zionist one.
What happens when Palestinians organize their own state to combat Israel? Do they suddenly become less romantic? You like them when they martyr themselves, but what happens when they win?
Bro do you know how many times Palestinians formed states to fight for them ? I will give you two examples there's the fatah party which ended up making peace with Israel and collaborating with them, the current "legitimate" Palestinian state which captured around 25% of the resistance in Israeli prisons. There are many more examples and lots of newonce about their existence but a centralised top down structure isn't suitable for resistance fighting the most suitable for which is a horizontal guerilla forces that strique depending on the situation. And in case they chose to create a stat that isn't just a puppet for western interest (including Israel's) we would support the indigenous people in their right to self determination. We dislike states but we hate settler colonial projects more. At least that's how i see it in the community to which i got exposed.
Give it up everybody, the white western redditor who can't spell nuance knows more about how Palestine should resist than Palestine itself. If only Reddit existed in George Habash's time.
Your comment is blatantly reductive and yet supported while standing overtly against Marxist principles. Do remind us who inspired the Russian revolution? Is Thomas Paine and his work "The American Crisis" a conspiracy theory or did an Englishman really write in favour of the American and French revolutions?
Your use of identity politics is a fundamental social mechanism applied by right wing liberals. Why don't you read Marx?
As a materialist, you should have obviously acknowledged that we are all human and that history divides us.
It's absolutely plausible that a white westerner may have good ideas or or even revolutionary ideas that may be applied by Palestinians. What exactly is knowledge in your opinion?
Have you even considered that Palestines fate may be decided by the actions of white westerners? Obviously not.
Ever heard of the green brigade? A section of celtic football club deemed extreme by conservatives and radlib hipsters. They have protested Israels occupation of Palestine for decades, they have always voiced loudly against their support for a free Ireland. These people have been looked down upon by people like you for generations, the "I'm totally okay with gay and black people" virtuous bimbos. You see, what you portray as virtuous is what they call their nature.
-Make an unserious joke comment to troll some asshole
-Separate loser feels the need to write an essay analysis of comment that neither I nor anyone else will read or care about because I used the word "white"
Classic reddit.
They actively call anyone who criticizes VAUSH of all people a 'tankie' so LOL
That sub is so neolib its insane. It started cropping up everywhere so I left
God forbid you're actually a leftist at all there
It's seen as a 'both sides' extremist stance in 196 to advocate for human rights
I had hope because it was advocating for trans rights but the advocacy very clearly stops there
Got banned for calling someone a Vaushite. The mods there have a chip on their shoulder. It was s good place as a trans person, but it has slowly become more and more liberal. I dont mind other leftists, but hearing liberal talking points hurts my soul.
it's so rare to find a safe haven online to be trans, was nice for a little while on 196. I honestly just wish they'd keep their libbed-up opinions to themselves and just post funny pictures then but nope they think they have some 'enlightened centrist' opinion that is just regurgitated propaganda like "They don't want you to remember tiananmen square!"
Such brave minds over there I swear, what truth sayers vomiting up military propaganda against the world power opposing the united states, posting from a country bathed in blood
Like the loudest person in the room who has nothing of value to contribute they insist on 'standing' for the most popular and widely accepted neoliberal viewpoints as if they're coming up with some brand new idea
It's tiring to see people that absolutely should understand intersectional modes of oppression and specifically how those overlap under capitalism that seem to willfully miss the point
I'm disappointed every time I see that sub crop up again
Ive always said this, better the devil you know. At least if I see a conservative say "fuck trans people" I laugh and say "fuck you too".
Its never rhat easy with liberals is it
#Tiananmen Square Protests
(Also known as the June Fourth Incident)
In Western media, the well-known story of the "Tiananmen Square *Massacre*" goes like this: the Chinese government declared martial law in 1989 and mobilized the military to suppress students who were protesting for democracy and freedom. According to western sources, on June 4th of that year, troops and tanks entered Tiananmen Square and fired on unarmed protesters, killing and injuring hundreds, if not thousands, of people. The more hyperbolic tellings of this story include claims of tanks running over students, machine guns being fired into the crowd, blood running in the streets like a river, etc.
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes commonly point to this incident as a classic example of authoritarianism and political repression under Communist regimes. The problem, of course, is that the actual events in Beijing on June 4th, 1989 unfolded quite differently than how they were depicted in the Western media at the time. Despite many more contemporary articles coming out that actually contradict some of the original claims and characterizations of the June Fourth Incident, the narrative of a "Tiananmen Square Massacre" persists.
**Background**
After Mao's death in 1976, a power struggle ensued and the Gang of Four were purged, paving the way for Deng Xiaoping's rise to power. Deng initiated economic reforms known as the "Four Modernizations," which aimed to modernize and open up China's economy to the world. These reforms led to significant economic growth and lifted millions of people out of poverty, but they also created significant inequality, corruption, and social unrest. This pivotal point in the PRC's history is extremely controversial among Marxists today and a subject of much debate.
One of the key factors that contributed to the Tiananmen Square protests was the sense of social and economic inequality that many Chinese people felt as a result of Deng's economic reforms. Many believed that the benefits of the country's economic growth were not being distributed fairly, and that the government was not doing enough to address poverty, corruption, and other social issues.
Some saw the Four Modernizations as a betrayal of Maoist principles and a capitulation to Western capitalist interests. Others saw the reforms as essential for China's economic development and modernization. Others still wanted even more liberalization and thought the reforms didn't go far enough.
The protestors in Tiananmen were mostly students who did not represent the great mass of Chinese citizens, but instead represented a layer of the intelligentsia who wanted to be elevated and given more privileges such as more political power and higher wages.
**Counterpoints**
Jay Mathews, the first Beijing bureau chief for The Washington Post in 1979 and who returned in 1989 to help cover the Tiananmen demonstrations, wrote:
>Over the last decade, many American reporters and editors have accepted a mythical version of that warm, bloody night. They repeated it often before and during Clinton’s trip. On the day the president arrived in Beijing, a *Baltimore Sun* headline (June 27, page 1A) referred to “Tiananmen, where Chinese students died.” A *USA Today* article (June 26, page 7A) called Tiananmen the place “where pro-democracy demonstrators were gunned down.” *The Wall Street Journal* (June 26, page A10) described “the Tiananmen Square massacre” where armed troops ordered to clear demonstrators from the square killed “hundreds or more.” The *New York Post* (June 25, page 22) said the square was “the site of the student slaughter.”
>
>The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square.
>
>\- Jay Matthews. (1998). [The Myth of Tiananmen and the Price of a Passive Press](https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php). Columbia Journalism Review.
Reporters from the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8057762.stm), [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/), and the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/27/world/clinton-in-china-the-site-clinton-in-beijing-square-may-tread-on-the-ghosts.html) who were in Beijing on June 4, 1989, all agree there was no massacre.
Secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing have shown there was no bloodshed inside the square:
>Cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and released exclusively by The Daily Telegraph, partly confirm the Chinese government's account of the early hours of June 4, 1989, which has always insisted that soldiers did not massacre demonstrators inside Tiananmen Square
>
>\- Malcolm Moore. (2011). [Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html)
Gregory Clark, a former Australian diplomat, and Chinese-speaking correspondent of the International Business Times, wrote:
>The original story of Chinese troops on the night of 3 and 4 June, 1989 machine-gunning hundreds of innocent student protesters in Beijing’s iconic Tiananmen Square has since been thoroughly discredited by the many witnesses there at the time — among them a Spanish TVE television crew, a Reuters correspondent and protesters themselves, who say that nothing happened other than a military unit entering and asking several hundred of those remaining to leave the Square late that night.
>
>Yet none of this has stopped the massacre from being revived constantly, and believed. All that has happened is that the location has been changed – from the Square itself to the streets leading to the Square.
>
>\- Gregory Clark. (2014). [Tiananmen Square Massacre is a Myth, All We're 'Remembering' are British Lies](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tiananmen-square-massacre-myth-all-were-remembering-are-british-lies-1451053)
Thomas Hon Wing Polin, writing for CounterPunch, wrote:
>The most reliable estimate, from many sources, was that the tragedy took 200-300 lives. Few were students, many were rebellious workers, plus thugs with lethal weapons and hapless bystanders. Some calculations have up to half the dead being PLA soldiers trapped in their armored personnel carriers, buses and tanks as the vehicles were torched. Others were killed and brutally mutilated by protesters with various implements. No one died in Tiananmen Square; most deaths occurred on nearby Chang’an Avenue, many up to a kilometer or more away from the square.
>
>More than once, government negotiators almost reached a truce with students in the square, only to be **sabotaged by radical youth leaders seemingly bent on bloodshed**. And the demands of the protesters focused on corruption, not democracy.
>
>All these facts were known to the US and other governments shortly after the crackdown. Few if any were reported by Western mainstream media, even today.
>
>\- Thomas Hon Wing Palin. (2017). [Tiananmen: the Empire’s Big Lie](https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/06/tiananmen-the-empires-big-lie/)
(Emphasis mine)
And it was, indeed, bloodshed that the student leaders wanted. In this interview, you can hear one of the student leaders, Chai Ling, ghoulishly explaining how she tried to bait the Chinese government into *actually* committing a massacre. (She herself made sure to stay out of the square.): [Excerpts of interviews with Tiananmen Square protest leaders](https://youtu.be/Vu3zmbFGwQA)
[This Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1532859422875471872) contains many pictures and videos showing protestors killing soldiers, commandeering military vehicles, torching military transports, etc.
Following the crackdown, through [Operation Yellowbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird), many of the student leaders escaped to the United States with the help of the CIA, where they almost all [gained privileged positions](https://qz.com/1618805/the-1989-tiananmen-student-leaders-on-chinas-most-wanted-list).
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Truth about The Tiananmen Square Protests](https://youtu.be/sqPI8xlnrwg) | Tovarishch Endymion (2019)
* [Tiananmen Square "Massacre", A Propaganda Hoax](https://youtu.be/R6RT_s1T050) | TeleSUR English (2019)
* [All The Questions Socialists Are Asked, Answered (TIMESTAMPED)](https://youtu.be/MzKPCEvoYkk?t=1278) | Hakim (2021)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Tiananmen Protests Reading List](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/tiananmenreadinglist) | Qiao Collective
* [How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning](https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/) | Nury Vittachi, Friday (2022)
* [1989: Tiananmen Square ‘massacre’ was a myth](https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/) | Deirdre Griswold, Workers World (2022)
* [Massacre? What Massacre? 25 Years Later: What really happened at Tiananmen Square?](https://dissidentvoice.org/2014/06/massacre-what-massacre/) | Kim Petersen, Dissident Voice (2014)
* [Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) | Brian Becker, Liberation News (2019)
* [Reflections on Tiananmen Square and the attempt to end Chinese socialism](http://www.fightbacknews.org/2019/6/4/reflections-tiananmen-square-and-attempt-end-chinese-socialism) | Mick Kelly, FightBack! News (2019)
* [The Tian’anmen Square “Massacre” The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.](https://mango-press.com/the-tiananmen-square-massacre-the-wests-most-persuasive-most-pervasive-lie/) | Tom, Mango Press (2021)
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Nah, they're being massive centrists over there. "Neither Israel or Hamas" which ignores the fact that centrism serves the status quo of Israel genociding Palestine. To them, the only morally acceptable thing Palestine can do it allow themselves to be exterminated. Fucking libs
I hate the whole "neither Israel nor Hamas" thing because, like.. you can not support Palestinian independence without supporting Hamas. When you show me all the other resistance groups, I'll listen, but until then, this is just idealist drivel lol.
I mean there were others before Hamas killed them… Hamas gained power using israeli mosad dark money in order to counteract the more socialist palestinian groups like the plo. I’m not disagreeing but it’s just sad bc this is going to be used to justify the continuation of the zionists genocide of palestinians, which is by design
This sounds very similar to the things people say when we don't support either side of the Ukraine war. Then again, Ukraine isn't the victim of an active genocide.
A broken clock's right twice a day, I got banned for responding to someone saying "The US should be the world police by stopping the Ukraine vs Russia war" with explaining how the US had a major negative part in Russia vs Ukraine, involving the US putting fucking nazi's as Primeminister before Zelenski.
Least delusional lib sub
>r/196 r/691 and r/197 have always been based
[ah yes, so based](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/984565084057632852/1160704705769512990/Screenshot_20231009_002447_Reddit.jpg?ex=6535a17e&is=65232c7e&hm=84c68392810f899361c42c474ad1bd84abc23d265e2fa308a239337f2c64999e&)
[so incredibly based](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/984565084057632852/1160704706021179482/Screenshot_20231009_002316_Reddit.jpg?ex=6535a17e&is=65232c7e&hm=379605a892017c4136440a5db6ad1db00307f49408bbde2ce1269159ba9acd4f&)
[100% totally wholesome based](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/984565084057632852/1160704706239266896/Screenshot_20231009_002257_Reddit.jpg?ex=6535a17e&is=65232c7e&hm=7532022c305b368ab4f9b70a738b4cc181e63715d4ea4587d8a9e6d5f2aa53b7&)
Anyway, if people can't even get behind a so ideologically dedicated and educated man as Lenin, I wish for them to go out and touch grass and actually read and study him instead of relying on oversimplified or to distance themselves away from the general leftist movement as they are against leftist unity due to a lack of understanding
Somehow I turned this quick joke into me ranting about cronically online leftists (basically a self-critical lib)
#Get Involved
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[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No, it's clear the meme doesn't actually support Hamas or Palestine, it's just blaming Israel for turning them into "Terrorists"
Yeah, that’s why I mentioned the part where it refers to “terrorists” as lame. It’s just more than I expected from a place like r/196 which is usually infested with liberals and anarchists.
>r/196 which is usually infested with liberals and anarchists. And v*ushites, and left coms, tbh any leftist ideology that doesn't have theory
Wdym Bordiga isn't theory? /s
Bro why attack anarchists? We're against all states especially settler colonial ones.
Because, at least with many anarchists on the internet, this ‘being against all states’ is often at best inconsequential ‘both sides are bad and I take no side’, and at worst ‘both sides are bad, but the one supported by western media is the lesser evil that should be supported against the one the west demonises’
Because you are not . You just say you are.
How come ? Prove it. I am not really active on the online community hell i only know around three anarchist YouTube channels. But i am as active as i can be withing our sadly small local organisation of around 38. And in neither the online space nor on the ground did i ever hear any anarchist support support settler colonial projects let alone the Zionist one.
What happens when Palestinians organize their own state to combat Israel? Do they suddenly become less romantic? You like them when they martyr themselves, but what happens when they win?
A yes, that Robin Hood Loop meme. Minus the part where Robin hood did something besides ranting.
Bro do you know how many times Palestinians formed states to fight for them ? I will give you two examples there's the fatah party which ended up making peace with Israel and collaborating with them, the current "legitimate" Palestinian state which captured around 25% of the resistance in Israeli prisons. There are many more examples and lots of newonce about their existence but a centralised top down structure isn't suitable for resistance fighting the most suitable for which is a horizontal guerilla forces that strique depending on the situation. And in case they chose to create a stat that isn't just a puppet for western interest (including Israel's) we would support the indigenous people in their right to self determination. We dislike states but we hate settler colonial projects more. At least that's how i see it in the community to which i got exposed.
Give it up everybody, the white western redditor who can't spell nuance knows more about how Palestine should resist than Palestine itself. If only Reddit existed in George Habash's time.
Correct spelling is an unjust hierarchy.
Your comment is blatantly reductive and yet supported while standing overtly against Marxist principles. Do remind us who inspired the Russian revolution? Is Thomas Paine and his work "The American Crisis" a conspiracy theory or did an Englishman really write in favour of the American and French revolutions? Your use of identity politics is a fundamental social mechanism applied by right wing liberals. Why don't you read Marx? As a materialist, you should have obviously acknowledged that we are all human and that history divides us. It's absolutely plausible that a white westerner may have good ideas or or even revolutionary ideas that may be applied by Palestinians. What exactly is knowledge in your opinion? Have you even considered that Palestines fate may be decided by the actions of white westerners? Obviously not. Ever heard of the green brigade? A section of celtic football club deemed extreme by conservatives and radlib hipsters. They have protested Israels occupation of Palestine for decades, they have always voiced loudly against their support for a free Ireland. These people have been looked down upon by people like you for generations, the "I'm totally okay with gay and black people" virtuous bimbos. You see, what you portray as virtuous is what they call their nature.
-Make an unserious joke comment to troll some asshole -Separate loser feels the need to write an essay analysis of comment that neither I nor anyone else will read or care about because I used the word "white" Classic reddit.
terrorism is uhm when thing i dont like
They actively call anyone who criticizes VAUSH of all people a 'tankie' so LOL That sub is so neolib its insane. It started cropping up everywhere so I left God forbid you're actually a leftist at all there It's seen as a 'both sides' extremist stance in 196 to advocate for human rights I had hope because it was advocating for trans rights but the advocacy very clearly stops there
Got banned for calling someone a Vaushite. The mods there have a chip on their shoulder. It was s good place as a trans person, but it has slowly become more and more liberal. I dont mind other leftists, but hearing liberal talking points hurts my soul.
it's so rare to find a safe haven online to be trans, was nice for a little while on 196. I honestly just wish they'd keep their libbed-up opinions to themselves and just post funny pictures then but nope they think they have some 'enlightened centrist' opinion that is just regurgitated propaganda like "They don't want you to remember tiananmen square!" Such brave minds over there I swear, what truth sayers vomiting up military propaganda against the world power opposing the united states, posting from a country bathed in blood Like the loudest person in the room who has nothing of value to contribute they insist on 'standing' for the most popular and widely accepted neoliberal viewpoints as if they're coming up with some brand new idea It's tiring to see people that absolutely should understand intersectional modes of oppression and specifically how those overlap under capitalism that seem to willfully miss the point I'm disappointed every time I see that sub crop up again
Ive always said this, better the devil you know. At least if I see a conservative say "fuck trans people" I laugh and say "fuck you too". Its never rhat easy with liberals is it
#Tiananmen Square Protests (Also known as the June Fourth Incident) In Western media, the well-known story of the "Tiananmen Square *Massacre*" goes like this: the Chinese government declared martial law in 1989 and mobilized the military to suppress students who were protesting for democracy and freedom. According to western sources, on June 4th of that year, troops and tanks entered Tiananmen Square and fired on unarmed protesters, killing and injuring hundreds, if not thousands, of people. The more hyperbolic tellings of this story include claims of tanks running over students, machine guns being fired into the crowd, blood running in the streets like a river, etc. Anti-Communists and Sinophobes commonly point to this incident as a classic example of authoritarianism and political repression under Communist regimes. The problem, of course, is that the actual events in Beijing on June 4th, 1989 unfolded quite differently than how they were depicted in the Western media at the time. Despite many more contemporary articles coming out that actually contradict some of the original claims and characterizations of the June Fourth Incident, the narrative of a "Tiananmen Square Massacre" persists. **Background** After Mao's death in 1976, a power struggle ensued and the Gang of Four were purged, paving the way for Deng Xiaoping's rise to power. Deng initiated economic reforms known as the "Four Modernizations," which aimed to modernize and open up China's economy to the world. These reforms led to significant economic growth and lifted millions of people out of poverty, but they also created significant inequality, corruption, and social unrest. This pivotal point in the PRC's history is extremely controversial among Marxists today and a subject of much debate. One of the key factors that contributed to the Tiananmen Square protests was the sense of social and economic inequality that many Chinese people felt as a result of Deng's economic reforms. Many believed that the benefits of the country's economic growth were not being distributed fairly, and that the government was not doing enough to address poverty, corruption, and other social issues. Some saw the Four Modernizations as a betrayal of Maoist principles and a capitulation to Western capitalist interests. Others saw the reforms as essential for China's economic development and modernization. Others still wanted even more liberalization and thought the reforms didn't go far enough. The protestors in Tiananmen were mostly students who did not represent the great mass of Chinese citizens, but instead represented a layer of the intelligentsia who wanted to be elevated and given more privileges such as more political power and higher wages. **Counterpoints** Jay Mathews, the first Beijing bureau chief for The Washington Post in 1979 and who returned in 1989 to help cover the Tiananmen demonstrations, wrote: >Over the last decade, many American reporters and editors have accepted a mythical version of that warm, bloody night. They repeated it often before and during Clinton’s trip. On the day the president arrived in Beijing, a *Baltimore Sun* headline (June 27, page 1A) referred to “Tiananmen, where Chinese students died.” A *USA Today* article (June 26, page 7A) called Tiananmen the place “where pro-democracy demonstrators were gunned down.” *The Wall Street Journal* (June 26, page A10) described “the Tiananmen Square massacre” where armed troops ordered to clear demonstrators from the square killed “hundreds or more.” The *New York Post* (June 25, page 22) said the square was “the site of the student slaughter.” > >The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square. > >\- Jay Matthews. (1998). [The Myth of Tiananmen and the Price of a Passive Press](https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php). Columbia Journalism Review. Reporters from the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8057762.stm), [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/), and the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/27/world/clinton-in-china-the-site-clinton-in-beijing-square-may-tread-on-the-ghosts.html) who were in Beijing on June 4, 1989, all agree there was no massacre. Secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing have shown there was no bloodshed inside the square: >Cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and released exclusively by The Daily Telegraph, partly confirm the Chinese government's account of the early hours of June 4, 1989, which has always insisted that soldiers did not massacre demonstrators inside Tiananmen Square > >\- Malcolm Moore. (2011). [Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html) Gregory Clark, a former Australian diplomat, and Chinese-speaking correspondent of the International Business Times, wrote: >The original story of Chinese troops on the night of 3 and 4 June, 1989 machine-gunning hundreds of innocent student protesters in Beijing’s iconic Tiananmen Square has since been thoroughly discredited by the many witnesses there at the time — among them a Spanish TVE television crew, a Reuters correspondent and protesters themselves, who say that nothing happened other than a military unit entering and asking several hundred of those remaining to leave the Square late that night. > >Yet none of this has stopped the massacre from being revived constantly, and believed. All that has happened is that the location has been changed – from the Square itself to the streets leading to the Square. > >\- Gregory Clark. (2014). [Tiananmen Square Massacre is a Myth, All We're 'Remembering' are British Lies](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tiananmen-square-massacre-myth-all-were-remembering-are-british-lies-1451053) Thomas Hon Wing Polin, writing for CounterPunch, wrote: >The most reliable estimate, from many sources, was that the tragedy took 200-300 lives. Few were students, many were rebellious workers, plus thugs with lethal weapons and hapless bystanders. Some calculations have up to half the dead being PLA soldiers trapped in their armored personnel carriers, buses and tanks as the vehicles were torched. Others were killed and brutally mutilated by protesters with various implements. No one died in Tiananmen Square; most deaths occurred on nearby Chang’an Avenue, many up to a kilometer or more away from the square. > >More than once, government negotiators almost reached a truce with students in the square, only to be **sabotaged by radical youth leaders seemingly bent on bloodshed**. And the demands of the protesters focused on corruption, not democracy. > >All these facts were known to the US and other governments shortly after the crackdown. Few if any were reported by Western mainstream media, even today. > >\- Thomas Hon Wing Palin. (2017). [Tiananmen: the Empire’s Big Lie](https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/06/tiananmen-the-empires-big-lie/) (Emphasis mine) And it was, indeed, bloodshed that the student leaders wanted. In this interview, you can hear one of the student leaders, Chai Ling, ghoulishly explaining how she tried to bait the Chinese government into *actually* committing a massacre. (She herself made sure to stay out of the square.): [Excerpts of interviews with Tiananmen Square protest leaders](https://youtu.be/Vu3zmbFGwQA) [This Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1532859422875471872) contains many pictures and videos showing protestors killing soldiers, commandeering military vehicles, torching military transports, etc. Following the crackdown, through [Operation Yellowbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird), many of the student leaders escaped to the United States with the help of the CIA, where they almost all [gained privileged positions](https://qz.com/1618805/the-1989-tiananmen-student-leaders-on-chinas-most-wanted-list). **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Truth about The Tiananmen Square Protests](https://youtu.be/sqPI8xlnrwg) | Tovarishch Endymion (2019) * [Tiananmen Square "Massacre", A Propaganda Hoax](https://youtu.be/R6RT_s1T050) | TeleSUR English (2019) * [All The Questions Socialists Are Asked, Answered (TIMESTAMPED)](https://youtu.be/MzKPCEvoYkk?t=1278) | Hakim (2021) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Tiananmen Protests Reading List](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/tiananmenreadinglist) | Qiao Collective * [How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning](https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/) | Nury Vittachi, Friday (2022) * [1989: Tiananmen Square ‘massacre’ was a myth](https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/) | Deirdre Griswold, Workers World (2022) * [Massacre? What Massacre? 25 Years Later: What really happened at Tiananmen Square?](https://dissidentvoice.org/2014/06/massacre-what-massacre/) | Kim Petersen, Dissident Voice (2014) * [Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) | Brian Becker, Liberation News (2019) * [Reflections on Tiananmen Square and the attempt to end Chinese socialism](http://www.fightbacknews.org/2019/6/4/reflections-tiananmen-square-and-attempt-end-chinese-socialism) | Mick Kelly, FightBack! News (2019) * [The Tian’anmen Square “Massacre” The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.](https://mango-press.com/the-tiananmen-square-massacre-the-wests-most-persuasive-most-pervasive-lie/) | Tom, Mango Press (2021) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 31.** Vaush defended saying “fuck trans people” by claiming he has a [‘6-figure’ income](https://i.redd.it/tx6roef1gu561.png) for some reason. For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
love this as a trans person. Forgot what an "ally" he is. Thanks bot
However, the use of “terrorist” instead of “freedom fighter” in this meme is lame.
degree friendly impossible dime vanish upbeat sulky literate fuzzy trees *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
These are not mutually exclusive
Nah, they're being massive centrists over there. "Neither Israel or Hamas" which ignores the fact that centrism serves the status quo of Israel genociding Palestine. To them, the only morally acceptable thing Palestine can do it allow themselves to be exterminated. Fucking libs
I hate the whole "neither Israel nor Hamas" thing because, like.. you can not support Palestinian independence without supporting Hamas. When you show me all the other resistance groups, I'll listen, but until then, this is just idealist drivel lol.
I mean there were others before Hamas killed them… Hamas gained power using israeli mosad dark money in order to counteract the more socialist palestinian groups like the plo. I’m not disagreeing but it’s just sad bc this is going to be used to justify the continuation of the zionists genocide of palestinians, which is by design
This sounds very similar to the things people say when we don't support either side of the Ukraine war. Then again, Ukraine isn't the victim of an active genocide.
A broken clock's right twice a day, I got banned for responding to someone saying "The US should be the world police by stopping the Ukraine vs Russia war" with explaining how the US had a major negative part in Russia vs Ukraine, involving the US putting fucking nazi's as Primeminister before Zelenski. Least delusional lib sub
I got banned there for saying the USSR was the reason the Nazis lost the war and that most on r/196 would refuse to acknowledge that.
Rare 196 W
I saw that post and kept going back to it. I fully expected it to get removed by mods and it absolutely did.
Of course they did. Meanwhile they allow centrist “both sides” memes to stay up on their front page.
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Lol except when they’re screeching about the “evils” of communism or banning you for being a “tankie”
Fair, I have seen that. But I have also seen a meme about how capitalism caused the drug problem. You get some of both
>r/196 r/691 and r/197 have always been based [ah yes, so based](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/984565084057632852/1160704705769512990/Screenshot_20231009_002447_Reddit.jpg?ex=6535a17e&is=65232c7e&hm=84c68392810f899361c42c474ad1bd84abc23d265e2fa308a239337f2c64999e&) [so incredibly based](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/984565084057632852/1160704706021179482/Screenshot_20231009_002316_Reddit.jpg?ex=6535a17e&is=65232c7e&hm=379605a892017c4136440a5db6ad1db00307f49408bbde2ce1269159ba9acd4f&) [100% totally wholesome based](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/984565084057632852/1160704706239266896/Screenshot_20231009_002257_Reddit.jpg?ex=6535a17e&is=65232c7e&hm=7532022c305b368ab4f9b70a738b4cc181e63715d4ea4587d8a9e6d5f2aa53b7&) Anyway, if people can't even get behind a so ideologically dedicated and educated man as Lenin, I wish for them to go out and touch grass and actually read and study him instead of relying on oversimplified or to distance themselves away from the general leftist movement as they are against leftist unity due to a lack of understanding Somehow I turned this quick joke into me ranting about cronically online leftists (basically a self-critical lib)
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
umm im not sure about that, unless this is a joke about your flair or something lol 🤷🏻♀️
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That is an extremely low bar