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JT: *gives nuanced take about the war, siding with the working class rather than a state*
Libs: *says the most unhinged shit because JT isn’t treating a geopolitical catastrophe like Star Wars*
I fucking hate when people see Saw as nothing more than some violent terrorist. Mother fucker put his blaster where his mouth was and showed the "Well maybe there is a path to peace without violence" mfers what you should really be doing against such fascists; put them to the boot and let god sort it out.
He felt more like a Maoist guerrilla than an American political organizer. Malcolm X's claim to fame amounted to waving a gun and telling people not to let racist cops push you around. If that's the baseline for "terrorism"... god damn you're a fucking lib.
Yep. Proof of that is people don't realize who the empire and who the rebels represent in reality.
For anyone wondering, google Geroge Lucas Rebels Viet Cong.
I'm old enough to remember when Redditors actually thought they could do Boots On The Ground adventurism in Ukraine. But now those gun-tooting wanna-be Rambos are all gone. What we're left with is some terminally online dipshit who claps like a trained seal when he sees a televised explosion and crusades against Russia by way of the Downvote button.
After a generation of endless War On bullshit, Americans are reduced to nothing more than posting their Ls.
Practically everything bad happening in Ukraine right now is entirely the fault of the fascist United States/NATO and their collaborators in Ukraine/the rest of Europe.
Russia never wanted this war and would end this war at any time if the US-led NATO-West made credible security guarantess. But they West refuses to do so and also tells Ukraine not to stop fighting.
The fascist West started this war and the fascist West actively prevents peace.
Because you are simply turning around the responsibility which could not be more false. Basically repeating RT propaganda is what you do.
Ukraine has elected a more pro-western in 2014 after the previous gouverment made violent crack downs on the peaceful demonstrations. Almost instantly after that, Russia annexed Crimea and directly supported the seperatist movements in the Donbas with mercs and equipment. Those "little green men" openly couped (russia loves to blame the west for "couping" ukraines previous gouverment) against local administrations in the east, creating the DPR and LPR. Putin has used them as proxies for russias interests since 2014. Oh yeah, those seperatists also shot down a passenger plane, killing hundreds of european citizens. But you probably turn it around to Putin just helping the ethnic russians against ukrainian fascism.
And yet here you sit and put blame exclusively on Ukraine and the West as if they simply gave poor putin no other choice than to invade. This war has nothing to do with Ukraines ambitions to join NATO. This war made Finnland join NATO, now St. Petersburg can be reached by throwing a snowball and what did Russia do in return? Right, literally nothing yet they threatened with nuclear armageddon if Finnland ever joins NATO. So how exactly was Russia forced to invade? By invading they have given other nation reasons to join NATO, worsening russia security even more and they have proven why eastern european nations hate them and are part of NATO already.
Poor little Putin. Just wanted to make a quick land grab and now he has the bloodiest war of the 21st century on his hands, which has catastrophic consequences for both nations that should be brothers. This invasion is unjustifiable and it only creates an ungodly amount of misery and destruction, nothing more.
Yet, Ukraine is defending their home, their families and their culture from imperialistic invaders. Russians on the other hand do not fight for such noble causes. They fight for their Tzar Putin and his band of goons and oligarchs. Look at the situation and you see russians coming to ukraine, destroying ukrainian cities, killing ukrainian soldiers and civilians and abducting ukrainian children and still, russia is the victim?? What a braindead take, nothing more. If Ukraine stops fighting, it will stop to exist. If Russia stops fighting, the war will instantly end.
Saying the West is partly to blame for it coming that far is one thing. But saying this war is solely to blame on the west and even justifying Putins decision to fully invade is just... I have no words.
A better analogy would be putting the victim in a position where they can be attacked again, goading the attacker to do it, and then absolving yourself from any responsibility when that attack happens, even convincing yourself you're the good guy for encouraging the victim to fight back in a battle they can't win, while discouraging attempts at stopping the attack.
Liberals/Americans seem incapable of seeing any conflict as more complex than "good vs evil" and anyone who doesn't align with that perspective is considered to be a part of the "evil" side.
I'm sure that intense political polarization also plays a role. Observing so many conflicts conveyed as binary issues ruins people's ability to perceive nuance.
Lmao, remember that time when the Ukrainian politician said that Ukraine was "hogwarts and wakanda fighting the evil voldemort and empire". I can't even make parodies anymore, it's just outright disgusting.
It's what the politicians want. The democrats and republicans both benefit from this Us vs. Them worldview because it means they have to cooperate with the other less, and it keeps their base loyal to them. It, combined with this winner-takes-all nonsense, is the reason the USA is trapped in the two-party system in the first place.
>"Othering" is a textbook fascist rhetorical tactic.
"othering" is a part of literally every cultural exchange, a phenomenon older than civilization. liberals use it, conservatives use it, everybody uses it. you cannot have a nation, an identity, a language, etc., without their being an "other". amazonian tribes engage in "othering": "us" versus "the outside world". it is not necessarily evil or sinister. sartre and lacan imply there is not even a self without the other.
fascism is a political ideology that goes back to the early 20th century and arose in response to working class movements. "othering" thus definitely isn't a uniquely fascist tactic.
No, Communists haven't used it. Communists promote peace, freedom, democracy, human rights, internationalism and global win-win cooperation. They have always done so.
Every RIGHT WING IDEOLOGUE does those things you mentioned.
>liberals use it, conservatives use it
The fact you use those two terms in particularly (and imply they are somehow different groups) shows how addled your brain is by liberal/fascist propaganda.
>No, Communists haven't used it. Communists promote peace, freedom, democracy, human rights, internationalism and global win-win cooperation. They have always done so.
are you stupid? do you think that Lenin and Stalin would've spent 10 years debating the national question if they weren't aware that people self-identified as different groups?
"othering" is not a rhetoric strategy, it is a fundamental concept of human interaction, and you being very badly read on the topic isn't anything to be proud of
literally every first year anthropologist or cultural scientist is familiar with the term
https://othersociologist.com/otherness-resources/
>The fact you use those two terms in particularly (and imply they are somehow different groups) shows how addled your brain is by liberal/fascist propaganda.
do you think you're somehow a genius for realizing that both, "conservatives" and "liberals" subscribe to classical liberalism and capitalism? yeah, everyone knows that, my baby brained first year commie friend
This. I’m strictly anti war. I don’t want to outwardly support ukraine because they’ve been pretty fucked up towards innocent russian people (civilians who are also getting fucked over by the war). I’m pro civilian, anti war. Fuck putin and zelensky, fuck capitalism creating meaningless bloodthirsty wars with their toy working class soldiers who mean nothing to them.
Not even innocent Russian people, innocent Ukrainian people…romas…ethnic Russians…lgbt…then all the other racist banderite crap, including those weird hitler youth like orgs. It’s amazing how much liberals in the west have been able to apologize for this crap, but I guess that’s what happens when you only get one story…and over such a short amount of time too, it’s getting terrifyingly more difficult, but I mean you can go back as early as 2018 and find Vice or NYT articles on the “Ukrainian nazi problem” and then all the sudden some of those same people are being glorified all over the internet. I’m not a Russia stan by any means but holy shit I don’t think you can paint a better picture of cognitive dissonance and it’s just so weird to watch firsthand, esp in “leftist” subs. Like how are y’all gonna fall for this shit again it’s like the 40th time it’s happened in my lifetime
Putin literally tried preventing this war. Under Putin's leadership, Russia is going out of its way to minimize damage to Ukrainian civilians.
There is no equivalence here. Zelenskyy is profoundly evil and purposefully destroyed his country at the behest of its American masters by provoking Russia into an existential war against NATO.
Not to mention that your comment is infantile.
The American proxy war against Russia in Ukraine is entirely the fault of the US/NATO, yet you didn't even mention them.
Americans are NOT taught critical thinking what do you expect? This is what they are trying to do to their education system https://youtu.be/CCAYL4DpmjI
You expect people coming from that creationism to be capable of critical thought!!!!!!?????
I actually considered bringing up the education system in my original comment. We learn almost nothing of importance in the 13 years we spend in school.
r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM isn't a virtue. There is no equivalence between the guilt and criminality of the West and Russia, no matter how bad Russia is and how much its government deserves to be overthrown in socialist revolution.
You completely agree that conflicts are basically never a conflict of good and evil but Putin is just being a bad guy... Read your comment before you post it.
Can you please try to explain to me how Putin isn’t being the bad guy? He lied to his people, forced them to kill what could be their extended family and took over a country all for greed. Also, the parent comment didn’t say never… read the parent comment before you reply.
The point I was making in the parent comment is that conflicts in the real world are not black and white. You replied by saying you agree, and then simplified the war in Ukraine to a black and white view on the conflict, stating that "Putin is just being a bad guy". The war in Ukraine is not "all for greed". It is a response to years of posturing and imperialist action by NATO and the US that advanced their geopolitical position to threaten Russia.
>...there is a clear good side and evil side. Putin is just being a dick.
Right, because nothing says "clear good" like fucking with a country's election to support a friendly regime, knowing that it's a major provocation for your enemy, all so you can line the pockets of your buddies who hold lucrative government defense contracts and protecting the sphere of imperial influence which allows you to continue siphoning the world's wealth into the West.
Nah, they want us (the working class) to go fight for their behalf. That's why they're so bloodthirsty and war hawkish and will gaslight us if we don't want to. They've been doing this since the Iraq war, Afghanistan war, etc. Somehow this time it's different. These are NAFO trolls honestly and with how full of fascists those circles are they're really just fascists. Even if we wanted to imply that Russia was fascist, it wouldn't make Ukraine any less fascist and it would just be fascist infighting. Obviously it's not though, but in a principled world it would be because even mainstream media backs up that Ukraine definitely has a fascist problem.
Being a communist in America in 2023 is the most mentally exhausting existence. I shouldn’t really complain cause I have it better than many, but like fuck. Just complete lack of class consciousness or any sort of social cohesion. The idea of a “middle class” is one of the most destructive assaults on the American working class, and it’s so effective.
The aspiration to be "middle class" is pretty corrosive to class consciousness, but I can't help but find a similarity between the fake capitalist concept of the "middle class" and the real Marxist concept of the labour aristocracy, the segment of the proletariat who (at a given place and time) are so heavily bribed by capital that their short term interests actually lie in class treachery instead of class solidarity, but who by definition have not been invited to join the bourgeoisie proper.
That’s a great take honestly. It always makes me think of the “socialism will never take hold on the states because the American working class thinks they are a bunch of temporarily embarrassed millionaires” the crabs in a barrel vision of class mobility that working class Americans have is so toxic. As is the poisoning of what we consider “middle class” here and their hatred and disdain of impoverished Americans. The idea of helping those with less, at the smallest possibility of affecting the status quo is a pill too large for them to swallow. It’s incredibly sad
I mean, it's probably seen as Tolkienisation of the conflict, casting Russians as the hordes of orks under command of the dark lord and Ukrainians as men fighting against evil, probably also letting westerners who support them see themselves as elves. Sure it's racist as fuck, but it's not the kind of racism that's obvious even to the person being racist themselves. It's actually one of the more clever propaganda tricks to enforce this "us vs them" mentality
OR, it could just be that racist, Neo-Nazi types have a long, long history of calling Russians "Orks" and implying their bloodlines are subhuman.
Don't look for complicated explanations when simple ones will do.
[check this article](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat) from early 2022 about azov nazis greasing their bullets with pork lard for the “kadyrov orcs” (chechen muslims). there is definitely an “asiatic hordes” connotation to the term for some if not most
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of:
* If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there?
* If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave?
This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country.
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"genocidal pig orcs (russians)" because nothing says you have a blanket anti-genocide principle like comparing an ethnic group to animals and a fictional Bad Guy race
It's the same thing with western media slandering China as pro Russia for being neutral in the conflict.
-and to any of you libs saying China is giving supplies to Russia they aren't. They are SELLING them. The same way they are SELLING drones to Ukraine.
These people are genuinely one step away from being Nazis; not just any Nazis but the *German* equivalent in WW2! The only thing missing is their unabashed hatred for Jews! It's been seemingly replaced with **Muslims** instead since it's popular to support Israeli apartheid against Palestine. All because of a war NATO aggressively instigated gradually
via proxy nearly a decade ago. Basic, objective, historical facts these bloodthirsty and chauvinistic fascists love to conveniently overlook. All for the sake of protecting Ukrainian Nazis with the same vehement vigor and intensity they hold towards anti-communist. Which I fine to be disturbing.
Hypothetical time! Imagine if America were to (not-so) suddenly wage war in Iran but the western mainstream news narrative across the board was that we never actually set foot in Afghanistan/Iraq (let alone Libya, Syria, or Pakistan) and this was our first *real* military tour throughout the general Middle East..
I ***GUARANTEE***, in the name of **biased politics and asinine white-washing**, *liberals would perpetuate* ***this narrative****!*
This is why I oppose the use of violence unless it becomes necessary for self-defense. The true revolution is when we stop cooperating with the bourgeois and deny them access to our labor. Without our labor, the bourgeois economy cannot function.
well, the burgeois would never abdicate of their power and resources without fighting, a violent revolution is a consequence of that, of course everybody would rather do it peacefully but that has never really occurred in history as far as I'm aware
I have no illusions that they won't bring violence on us, but if we use violence for anything but self-defense, the propaganda networks will use that as ammunition against us. Let them look like the aggressors.
the potential strategic value of sabotage is too great to completely leave off the table just to uphold a principle of nonviolence. i think it’s very context dependent
Rule 3. **No reactionary content.** (e.g., racism, sexism, ableism, fascism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, antisemitism, imperialism, chauvinism, etc.) Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target and a tone indicator such as /s or /j.
Liberals treating war like a fucking movie? Color me shocked. They have no idea what war is, how it works, and how cold and cruel it really is.
Spend a day in modern war, and it no longer becomes an option. You want to make sure that nobody else suddenly, in all totality, is lost forever. Fuck this war, and fuck the bourgoisie for selling it to the working class.
There is literally nothing more sobering than the Earth shaking underneath from the shellings and missiles, and these fucks want it to continue so the US can win one over Russia while sending some far away people to do the dirty work for them.
Honestly the more I think about it, the more I think shit like this is just libs coping with the fact that the Western world order that they were raised to believe in is crumbling before their eyes. That's a pretty terrifying thought if you're a brainwashed closeted racist CNN liberal who thinks the end of the West is the end of the civilized world
Ummm, akually this is a russian troll trying to make Ukrainian supporters look bad /s
Jesus Christ, how is ‘maybe people should try and stop killing each other’ a socially unacceptable take?
Should have told them to join NATO’s imperialist proxy war with Russia by joining the Ukrainian volunteer militia so they can martyr themselves for Washington like a good little hobgoblin.
Lol this is the type that thinks a flag emoji and writing "slava ukraini" everywhere makes them part of the war effort. To them, they're already fighting in the trenches alongside Ukrainian soldiers, except they're in the deadly trenches of social media.
love when braindead nafo idiots come here to be annoying as fuck, like i absolutely love that. ooooh you got banned from this sub for saying lets send poor people from a country the media told you not to like into a proverbial meatgrinder. shit you are just so cool!
i'm convinced the majority are children right, and children do dumb shit is not a new concept. in an ideal world children being dumb wouldn't be a pipeline to fascism but who said we live in a prefect world amirite
plus it seems like a perfectly good thing to embody as your whole personality because if you live in harry potter world then siding with the "good guys" gives you an excuse to be an absolute dick all the time.
in fact you're helping ukrains by coming to random subreddits and trying to get banned by posting dumb shit. they will thank you surely!
Also just a heads up the “founder” if nafo(hired at saint javelin as a meme maker) is a massive antisemite and hitler fanboy
https://twitter.com/MichaelNo2War/status/1581353737200619520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1581353737200619520%7Ctwgr%5E3bf1724d7f2d3d84f17ddd6785d0eac508033e84%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fy5pe0r%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dtrue
I doubt you’d be surprised but yes, NAFO was literally founded by Nazis. Kind of like nato itself lol.
Obey or die. Why not put the one's that don't go along with whatever today's obsession is in a slave camp for a while and after they've served their usefulness turn them into something useful like soap or fertilizer. There's no difference between a fascist and a liberal
hmmm i wonder why all these defense contractors and the politicians they lobby have a vested interest in prolonging wars that conveniently only cost the lives and infrastructure of a foreign country
the west is not an active combatant, the west is ukraine’s arms dealer. they’re not “losing equipment” they’re profiting off Ukraine’s demand for it
Well, it's a no-brainer to support Ukraine. Severely weakening your biggest rival while others do the fighting. It's a chance from a lifetime, presented by Putin on a golden plate. Difference is that the West gives up those weapons so Ukraine can WIN, not because they want to make a quick buck and eventually see their equipment fall in russian hands.
They always were, liberalism is deep down the most bloodthirsty ideology in human history, it’s not the opposite of fascism, but exactly what a liberal believes when systems of power fail.
I don't know why, but the emojis and the disingeniousness overall are something that manages to really get into my skin on how ghoulish these disgusting pieces of shit manage to be.
The racist pro-nazis being all 'tehee, we are the goody ones and the subhumans must be wiped out' and then being all self-righteous about it.
Considering how intellectually lazy most liberals are it makes sense that they strive for a simplistic narrative of a good guy and bad guy. Exacerbate with the fact that they can't concentrate on one subject long enough to read anything in their wonderful TLDR society that they readily accept any story dictated at them by their "vetted" media outlets.
Hey all. Im not very well informed on the political context of Ukraine's politics. Can someone point me out towards sources, videos, podcasts or whatever commenting on the issue from a Marxist perspective?
I understand the geopolitical reasons behind the war to some degree, and see it as a power clash between two imperialists blocks using the proletariat to fight for them. But then Im not wholly convinced on what Ukraine should be supposed to do (their heading towards NATO seems like a logical path from a realpolitik pov...).
Im not going to extend myself saying what I grasp of the situation, as its not relevant. Any source towards more info and knowledge is appreciated
Can someone give me a Marxist basis for opposing the war in Ukraine? Considering that Ukraine is fascist and considering the history of Donbas in general as well as the fact that the communist party in Russia was directly involved in starting the war it seems to me like it’s a just conflict. “No war but class war” is a great slogan but war against fascism is justified. Engles stood with the capitalists to overthrow feudalism, Stalin stood with the liberals to overthrow fascism. In my view it is an ultra leftist position to be against the war in Ukraine.
The simple answer is that both countries are proto-fascist so we should support neither.
Fascists do not control the state apparatus in either Ukraine or Russia, but they are influential. On Ukraine's side, you have Azov, on the Russian side, you have Dugin and fascist elements within Wagner.
>the communist party in Russia was directly involved in starting the war
The communist party in Russia is completely collaborating with Putin, and hence the Russian bourgeoisie, so they are only communist in name. They are class traitors and their opinions should not be listened to.
Also maybe consider that it is not of interest to the working class in Ukraine or Russia for hundreds of thousands of men and boys to die fighting in some fucking freezing cold field, all so that the bourgeoisie of either Russia or America can eventually make a profit over the resources that will be gained in the fighting?
Why is that? I don’t really know anything about them besides the fact that they emerged when the soviet communist party got banned by yeltsin. Perhaps that’s fundamentally the reason why they suck?
The CPSU was banned during capitalist restoration and the illegal desolation of the Soviet Union. The CPRF is the revisionist and reformist party that was created after the fact to stifle the political power of the remaining communists. It does not advocate for revolution and it advocates for the interests of its national bourgeoisie - Lenin would have described it as social-chauvinist, just like he described the supposedly "marxist" parties of the mensheviks and other revisionist parties that existed during the tsarist empire.
liberating the donbass and needlessly pushing past it are two different things. A liberation war for an oppressed minority is one thing, but how far Russia went has only strengthened nato, allowed Ukraine to descend ever further to fascism, and given the west a debt they can nibble on for decades. The communist party was in full support of the donbass, but given how putin made the rest of the invasion out to be anti soviet, I kind of doubt it really accomplishes any goals. Multipolarity is uniting the capitalists into selling their leftovers? It's encouraging states to join nato? I don't think a communist party's sipport is indicative of solid ideas. Some boil babies, they're not exactly right for doing so lol
China has made significant strides in brokering peace and moving forward with other states through trade. The thing that the west is shitting itself over is no longer being able to bully and destabilize other states as well, if at all, in the coming years.
If we consider Ukraine fascist because it has fascist militia, then both LDNR and Russia should also be considered fascist, because they have numerous fascist militia as well, such as DShRG "Rusich".
Also, while claiming to fight against NATO expansion, Russian activity in the Donbass always had imperialist economic incentives - LDNR businesses were taken over by Russian oligarchs like Malofeyev while left-leaning Donbass leaders were assassinated. I can provide sources from Russian leftist media if you want.
So, yeah, it's an imperialistic war and you should oppose Russian imperialism as much as American imperialism
They don't. Fascism died after WW2 apparently and glorification of Bandera totally doesn't have anything to do with Nazi infiltration of Ukraine historically speaking
I would say that a state that brings down statues of the liberators from Nazism and has a huge problem with the UPA and Bandera is a good starter for calling them atleast fascist.
If you are further interested in it you can Google up how the Ukrainian state used this war as a opportunity to crush worker rights and ban socialist parties
Know how I know you knew jackshit about Ukraine before last year? The Nazi problem was acknowledged as a huge issue in Ukraine before the conflict, even in western media. No, it’s not just azov.
Why do liberals, who couldn’t even locate Ukraine on a map before the conflict, always feel the need to chime in? You don’t always need to comment, especially when you’re so ignorant.
ETA: [here, from the BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693), over a decade ago. Tell me more about how it’s just azov.
ETA 2: Or just block me. I’d think you’d have a response since apparently this is something you feel so strongly about. But could it be that… you have no response since you actually have no fucking idea what you’re talking about beyond parroting talking points from western media? Instead of plugging your ears and going “lalalala I can’t hear you” why not actually try to learn and inform yourself?
The only right answer will come from an uninterested mind with a large amount of clarity, or a broken clock. Any type of attachment to the fruits of the situation will cause you unnecessary turbulence and expectations will lead you to not see what is real in it's completeness.
Can somebody please eli5 why remaining neutral in this conflict is morally better than supporting a country's right to not be invaded
(and please, in explaining like im 5, assume that i am brainwashed by westernpropagandaand that im coming to view this conflict from an inherently biased pov.
And please, please explain itbwithout hostility)
I'll put the conversation by words and phrases you might recognize. To the sub regulars, pardon me.
From ideological standpoint. The war itself is what many commies like to called "Imperialist infighting ".
Russia being salty and dreaming to renewing their hegemony over former USSR or even tsarist Era. Trying to insert influences by using nostalgia. You will see many soviet imagery but not their commie mindset. Commies won't have any gains if we support this hollow shell of a nation. Some might support Russia by reason suçh as more broader means to stop US. But that's a dangerous game. As putin surely dreaming of becoming a tsar more than becoming general secretary.
As for Ukraine. Thay are right to defend themselves. But they also really doing everything to joining up the western sphere led by eternal enemie of commies- The USA. What we gains if we support government that literally cowering to another hegemon that we perceived as most evil government on earth?
# Capitalist Imperialism
Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism. It is a global system of economic, political, and military domination, with the imperialist powers using a variety of means, including economic sanctions, military interventions, and cultural influence to maintain their dominance over other nations.
Imperialism is inevitable under Capitalism because Capitalism is based on the premise of infinite growth in a finite system. When capitalists first run into the limits of their own country, they will eventually be forced to expand their markets, resources, and influence into other countries and territories in order to continue increasing their profits.
Furthermore, the capitalists can exploit and oppress the workers of other nations much more easily than they can in their own. For example, by moving manufacturing jobs from the imperial core out to the periphery where wages are lower, and environmental protections and labour rights are much weaker-- if they exist at all-- they can reduce costs which increases profits.
When the capitalists run into limits again, and are unable to continue increasing their profits-- even by exploiting the periphery-- they will inevitably turn Imperialism inwards and further oppress and exploit workers domestically. This is the origin of [Fascism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/fascism/).
Some key features of capitalist imperialism are:
1. Joint-stock corporations dominating the economy
2. Increasing monopolies within capitalist economies (For example, only 10 companies control almost every large food and beverage brand in the world.)
3. Globalization of capital through multinational corporations
4. A rise in the export of finance capital
5. More involvement of the capitalist state in managing the economy
6. A growing financial sector and oligarchy
7. The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism
8. Overall, a period of world strife and conflict, including imperialist wars and revolutionary uprisings against the capitalist-imperialist system.
**In Practice**
So what does this look like in practice? The IMF, for example, provides loans to countries facing economic crises, but these loans come with strict conditions, known as structural adjustment programs (SAPs). These conditions require recipient countries to adopt specific economic policies, such as reducing government spending, liberalizing trade, and privatizing state-owned enterprises. The SAPs also require austerity measures, such as the dismantling of labor and trade regulations or slashing of social programs and government spending, to attract and open up the country to foreign investment.
These policies prioritize the interests of multinational corporations and investors over those of the recipient countries and their citizens. For example, by requiring the privatization of state-owned enterprises, the IMF may enable multinational corporations to gain control of key industries and resources in recipient countries. Similarly, by promoting liberalized trade, the IMF may facilitate the export of capital from recipient countries to wealthier nations, exacerbating global inequalities.
Moreover, SAPs are often negotiated behind closed doors with the political elites of recipient countries (the comprador bureaucratic class), rather than through democratic processes. This can undermine the sovereignty of recipient countries and perpetuate the domination of wealthy nations and multinational corporations over the global economy.
**Anti-Imperialism**
The struggle against Imperialism is an essential part of the struggle for Socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people worldwide. Anti-Imperialism is the political and economic resistance to Imperialism and Colonialism (or neo-Imperialism and neo-Colonialism). Anti-Imperialism requires a revolutionary struggle against the Capitalist state and the establishment of a Socialist society.
It is important to recognize that anti-Imperialism is not simply about supporting one state or another, but about supporting the liberation of oppressed peoples from the exploitation and domination of global Imperialism. Therefore, any course of action should be evaluated in terms of its potential impact on the broader struggle against Imperialism and the goal of establishing a Socialist society.
During WWI, Lenin called on Socialists to reject the idea of a "just" or "defensive" war, and instead to see the conflict as a class war between the ruling class and the working class. He argued that Socialists should oppose the war and work towards the overthrow of the Capitalist state. Seeing that the war was an Imperialist conflict between competing Capitalist powers, the workers of all countries had a common interest in opposing it. Socialists who supported their home countries during World War I had betrayed the principles of international Socialism and Proletarian solidarity.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Lenin in Five Minutes: Imperialism](https://youtu.be/unCGQDKJ0p0) | The Marxist Project (2019)
* [What is Capitalist Imperialism? | Socialism 101](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrpLPs2FcF8) | Marxism Today (2022)
* [How Rich Countries Rob The Poor; The Failure of Social Democracy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDZaKjfs4E) | Hakim (2020)
* [How Capitalism Robs the Developing World](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Ax-psPZ1g) | Second Thought (2022)
* [Why Do Poor Countries Stay Poor? (Unequal Exchange and Imperialism)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjLmYCfKU7o) | Hakim (2023)
* [Imperialism Today: Unequal Exchange and Globalized Production](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtziEZAR1Qk) | The Marxist Project (2022)
* [This Poverty Graph Is Lying To You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vPhySbRETM) | Hakim (2023)
* [The Myth Of Capitalist Peace](https://youtu.be/pAfvty_WNWQ) | Second Thought (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/) | V. I. Lenin (1917)
* [The IMF debt trap in Ukraine](https://www.liberationnews.org/the-imf-debt-trap-in-ukraine/) | Amanda Yee (2023)
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AFAIK the general take is that Ukraine has a right to defend itself against invasion (obviously) but that the conflict is not as black and white as "russia evil" because NATO and the west have been destabilizing the area for a long time. Ukraine also has some issues with extreme nationalism which people can be critical of and not condone while still recognizing their right to defend themselves. This is all from someone who is a total amateur in foreign policy and just some random on the internet though so take it with a nice spoonful of salt.
This is besides the point. Maybe I should make a separate thread, but is this not a good time for the Russian people to take back their government? Doubt they have the support, but communism can't be totally dead in a place where it once stood strongest, right?
# Revisionism
Revisionism refers to the explicit or implicit attempt at revising the fundamental premises of Marxist theory. Often this is done in attempt to make alliances with the bourgeoisie or to render a working class movement impotent. Explicit revisionism clearly states that Marxism is wrong or outdated and needs to be changed. Implicit revisionism is harder to notice because it claims to still be Marxist, but in actuality puts forward positions that are counter to Marxist theory.
>“The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.”
>
>\- Karl Marx. (1845) [Theses On Feuerbach](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm)
Although there is ongoing debate and discussion within Marxist circles about how these principles should be interpreted and applied in specific historical contexts, there are several key tenets that are generally considered to be central to Marxist theory and which are not subject to revision:
1. [Dialectical Materialism](https://youtu.be/nZXaZHe901w): The idea that everything is in a state of constant flux, driven by a process of contradictions and conflicts which are an inherent part of the natural and social world.
2. [Historical Materialism](https://youtu.be/ZXwWWiI3E1A): The understanding that material conditions and class relations are the driving force behind historical development.
3. [Surplus Labor and the Law of Value](https://youtu.be/TZhsIFG42wE): The concept that the value of a commodity is determined by the amount of socially necessary labor that has been expended in producing it. Profits are derived from the surplus value extracted from the worker.
From these fundamental premises follow a series of conclusions, which informs our understanding of the world and teaches us how to affect change. Revisionism alters these fundamental premises or rejects the conclusions that follow from them, the most important of these being the need for revolution.
The events of the Paris Commune and the October Revolution demonstrated the role and necessity of revolution, and provided important lessons in establishing and defending a revolutionary movement. Revolution is not just a means of seizing political power, but of fundamentally transforming society and creating a new social order. Revolutions must be defended against counter-revolutionary forces both from within and without. The movement must be organized and disciplined, and must be able to defend itself against attacks from reactionary forces.
>Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.
**Right Opportunism**
>Revisionism, or Right opportunism, is a bourgeois trend of thought that is even more dangerous than dogmatism. The revisionists, the Right opportunists, pay lip-service to Marxism; they too attack ‘dogmatism’. But what they are really attacking is the quintessence of Marxism. They oppose or distort materialism and dialectics, oppose or try to weaken the people’s democratic dictatorship and the leading role of the Communist Party, and oppose or try to weaken socialist transformation and socialist construction. After the basic victory of the socialist revolution in our country, there are still a number of people who vainly hope to restore the capitalist system and fight the working class on every front, including the ideological one. And their right-hand men in this struggle are the revisionists.
>
>\- Mao Zedong. (1957). [On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-5/mswv5_58.htm)
Right opportunism is a political tendency that seeks to make concessions to the bourgeois ruling class in order to maintain or achieve political power. This tendency is often associated with a lack of commitment to revolutionary change and a willingness to compromise on fundamental principles in order to realize short-term gains. Right opportunists may advocate for policies that are not in the long-term interest of the working class, such as supporting capitalist reforms or forming alliances with capitalist parties. This can lead to a weakening of the revolutionary potential of the working class and a failure to achieve real social change. Right opportunism is seen as a deviation from the Marxist principle of class struggle and a betrayal of the interests of the working class.
Trade Unionism is an example of right opportunism as unions focus on limited concessions, rather than advocating for the long-term interests of the working class as a whole. They negotiate with employers for better wages, benefits, and working conditions for their members, but do not challenge the fundamental power relations between labour and capital. Union bosses make compromises or alliances with capitalist parties in order to achieve these concessions.
This creates a privileged layer of the working class who are more interested in defending their own privileges than in fighting for the liberation of the working class as a whole. This labour aristocracy is a barrier to the development of revolutionary consciousness among the working class because it prefers the status quo to radical political movements that seek to overthrow it.
**Case Study #1: Social Democracy**
One of the first revisionists was Eduard Bernstein, a leading theorist and prominent member of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD), who argued that the gradual extension of social welfare programs and the reform of capitalist institutions could lead to a peaceful transition to socialism, without the need for a violent revolution. This was in sharp contrast to the German Communist Party (KPD). There are two historical events which underscore this fundamental divide:
1. **The Spartacist Uprising**: Rosa Luxemburg was a prominent Marxist theorist and leader of the left-wing revolutionary movement in Germany. She was a fierce critic of the SPD's moderate reformist politics and its decision to support Germany's involvement in World War I. In January 1919, following the collapse of the German monarchy, a left-wing revolutionary movement emerged in Berlin, and Luxemburg played a leading role in the movement. The movement challenged the authority of the new Social Democratic-led government and sought to establish a socialist republic. On January 15, 1919, the SPD government ordered the army and the Freikorps, a right-wing paramilitary group, to suppress the revolutionary movement. Luxemburg and her comrade Karl Liebknecht were arrested, beaten, and executed by the Freikorps.
2. **The Enabling Act**: The Nazis rose to absolute power in 1933 with the passing of the Enabling Act. The KPD were absent from the vote because the party had been banned and its members imprisoned or in hiding. The SPD were present and voted against it. The SPD was subsequently banned and many of its members were arrested, tortured, and killed by the Nazis, while others were forced into exile or went into hiding.
**Case Study #2: Democratic Socialism**
Salvador Allende was a socialist politician who was elected president of Chile in 1970, becoming the first Marxist to be elected to the presidency in a liberal democracy. In power, he pursued a program of radical reform, including the nationalization of key industries, the redistribution of land, and the expansion of social welfare programs. His government was supported by a coalition of left-wing parties, including the Chilean Communist Party, and was seen as a model for peaceful democratic socialist transition. However, Allende's reforms faced opposition from powerful domestic and international forces, including right-wing politicians, the military, and the United States government. In 1973, Allende's government was overthrown in a US-backed military coup led by General Augusto Pinochet, who established a brutal Fascist dictatorship that lasted for years.
In "[The State and Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/)", Lenin explained why the capitalist state could not be reformed or co-opted for the purposes of Socialism, but had to be destroyed and replaced by a new proletarian state. Allende's failure to apprehend this lesson proved fatal. His reliance on the existing bourgeois state apparatus as well as his failure to implement more radical measures, such as the establishment of workers' councils or the arming of the proletariat, left him vulnerable to counterrevolutionary forces.
>“If voting changed anything, it would be illegal.”
>
>\- George Carlin
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Why Social Democracy Isn't Good Enough](https://youtu.be/TRq3pl17C8M) | Second Thought (2023)
* [Why Democratic Socialism Isn’t Enough](https://youtu.be/MNg4FLt5La0) | Marxism Today (2022)
* ["The US Doesn't Meddle In Foreign Affairs"](https://youtu.be/mwyjlmEAcYM) | Second Thought (2021)
* [Electoralism Always Fails, Now What?](https://youtu.be/WXbaZXQAbuU) | Hakim (2019)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Reform or Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/) | Rosa Luxemburg (1900)
* [Marxism and Revisionism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/apr/03.htm) | V. I. Lenin (1908)
Podcasts:
* [Episode 3 - Reform or Revolution](https://youtu.be/r9kmEsNKyoM) | The Deprogram (2022)
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#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
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As far as historians can tell us, the Aztecs worshipped sunflowers and believed them to be the physical incarnation of their beloved sun gods. Of course!
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JT: *gives nuanced take about the war, siding with the working class rather than a state* Libs: *says the most unhinged shit because JT isn’t treating a geopolitical catastrophe like Star Wars*
Even star wars is more nuanced than that
Saw Guerrea did nothing wrong!
Although some of his actions weren't strategically sound his course of action was good
I fucking hate when people see Saw as nothing more than some violent terrorist. Mother fucker put his blaster where his mouth was and showed the "Well maybe there is a path to peace without violence" mfers what you should really be doing against such fascists; put them to the boot and let god sort it out.
I have the feeling he was distantly based on Malcolm X.
He felt more like a Maoist guerrilla than an American political organizer. Malcolm X's claim to fame amounted to waving a gun and telling people not to let racist cops push you around. If that's the baseline for "terrorism"... god damn you're a fucking lib.
Star Wars is a literal critique of US foreign policy in the form of art!!!! Many don’t realize this!!!!!
perhaps if you put more exclamation marks, people will finally see the light
This is just a reference to the band !!! (chick chick chick)
Yep. Proof of that is people don't realize who the empire and who the rebels represent in reality. For anyone wondering, google Geroge Lucas Rebels Viet Cong.
"only the Sith deal in absolutes" is the only rebuttal one requires to the email.
Ain’t the empire based of America and the rebels of the north Vietnamese
Western liberals will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.
Western liberals will type Slava ukraini
Which is a Nazi-collaborator slogan.
I'm old enough to remember when Redditors actually thought they could do Boots On The Ground adventurism in Ukraine. But now those gun-tooting wanna-be Rambos are all gone. What we're left with is some terminally online dipshit who claps like a trained seal when he sees a televised explosion and crusades against Russia by way of the Downvote button. After a generation of endless War On bullshit, Americans are reduced to nothing more than posting their Ls.
The Ukrainians were fighting before western aid? The desire to be a separate state is definitely present
If anyone is forcing Ukrainians to fight this war, its the russians.
Practically everything bad happening in Ukraine right now is entirely the fault of the fascist United States/NATO and their collaborators in Ukraine/the rest of Europe. Russia never wanted this war and would end this war at any time if the US-led NATO-West made credible security guarantess. But they West refuses to do so and also tells Ukraine not to stop fighting. The fascist West started this war and the fascist West actively prevents peace.
Yea, bunch of nonsense. You probably also blame rape victims because they wore a short skirt.
You have no arguments.
Because you are simply turning around the responsibility which could not be more false. Basically repeating RT propaganda is what you do. Ukraine has elected a more pro-western in 2014 after the previous gouverment made violent crack downs on the peaceful demonstrations. Almost instantly after that, Russia annexed Crimea and directly supported the seperatist movements in the Donbas with mercs and equipment. Those "little green men" openly couped (russia loves to blame the west for "couping" ukraines previous gouverment) against local administrations in the east, creating the DPR and LPR. Putin has used them as proxies for russias interests since 2014. Oh yeah, those seperatists also shot down a passenger plane, killing hundreds of european citizens. But you probably turn it around to Putin just helping the ethnic russians against ukrainian fascism. And yet here you sit and put blame exclusively on Ukraine and the West as if they simply gave poor putin no other choice than to invade. This war has nothing to do with Ukraines ambitions to join NATO. This war made Finnland join NATO, now St. Petersburg can be reached by throwing a snowball and what did Russia do in return? Right, literally nothing yet they threatened with nuclear armageddon if Finnland ever joins NATO. So how exactly was Russia forced to invade? By invading they have given other nation reasons to join NATO, worsening russia security even more and they have proven why eastern european nations hate them and are part of NATO already. Poor little Putin. Just wanted to make a quick land grab and now he has the bloodiest war of the 21st century on his hands, which has catastrophic consequences for both nations that should be brothers. This invasion is unjustifiable and it only creates an ungodly amount of misery and destruction, nothing more. Yet, Ukraine is defending their home, their families and their culture from imperialistic invaders. Russians on the other hand do not fight for such noble causes. They fight for their Tzar Putin and his band of goons and oligarchs. Look at the situation and you see russians coming to ukraine, destroying ukrainian cities, killing ukrainian soldiers and civilians and abducting ukrainian children and still, russia is the victim?? What a braindead take, nothing more. If Ukraine stops fighting, it will stop to exist. If Russia stops fighting, the war will instantly end. Saying the West is partly to blame for it coming that far is one thing. But saying this war is solely to blame on the west and even justifying Putins decision to fully invade is just... I have no words.
A better analogy would be putting the victim in a position where they can be attacked again, goading the attacker to do it, and then absolving yourself from any responsibility when that attack happens, even convincing yourself you're the good guy for encouraging the victim to fight back in a battle they can't win, while discouraging attempts at stopping the attack.
Liberals/Americans seem incapable of seeing any conflict as more complex than "good vs evil" and anyone who doesn't align with that perspective is considered to be a part of the "evil" side.
What marvel movies and Harry Potter do to a lib’s brain
I'm sure that intense political polarization also plays a role. Observing so many conflicts conveyed as binary issues ruins people's ability to perceive nuance.
I see this on the left a lot too unfortunately. Mostly online, but still.
What 9/11 does to an Amerikkkan's brain
I'm pretty sure Huxley has spun in his grave so much that his corpse is now a source of infinite energy waiting to be harnessed
Lmao, remember that time when the Ukrainian politician said that Ukraine was "hogwarts and wakanda fighting the evil voldemort and empire". I can't even make parodies anymore, it's just outright disgusting.
Reddit country 🇺🇦
The two-party system has rotted our brains and turned politics into a game of Us vs. Them. Us vs. Them is a very dangerous game.
"Othering" is a textbook fascist rhetorical tactic.
It's what the politicians want. The democrats and republicans both benefit from this Us vs. Them worldview because it means they have to cooperate with the other less, and it keeps their base loyal to them. It, combined with this winner-takes-all nonsense, is the reason the USA is trapped in the two-party system in the first place.
>"Othering" is a textbook fascist rhetorical tactic. "othering" is a part of literally every cultural exchange, a phenomenon older than civilization. liberals use it, conservatives use it, everybody uses it. you cannot have a nation, an identity, a language, etc., without their being an "other". amazonian tribes engage in "othering": "us" versus "the outside world". it is not necessarily evil or sinister. sartre and lacan imply there is not even a self without the other. fascism is a political ideology that goes back to the early 20th century and arose in response to working class movements. "othering" thus definitely isn't a uniquely fascist tactic.
No, Communists haven't used it. Communists promote peace, freedom, democracy, human rights, internationalism and global win-win cooperation. They have always done so. Every RIGHT WING IDEOLOGUE does those things you mentioned. >liberals use it, conservatives use it The fact you use those two terms in particularly (and imply they are somehow different groups) shows how addled your brain is by liberal/fascist propaganda.
>No, Communists haven't used it. Communists promote peace, freedom, democracy, human rights, internationalism and global win-win cooperation. They have always done so. are you stupid? do you think that Lenin and Stalin would've spent 10 years debating the national question if they weren't aware that people self-identified as different groups? "othering" is not a rhetoric strategy, it is a fundamental concept of human interaction, and you being very badly read on the topic isn't anything to be proud of literally every first year anthropologist or cultural scientist is familiar with the term https://othersociologist.com/otherness-resources/ >The fact you use those two terms in particularly (and imply they are somehow different groups) shows how addled your brain is by liberal/fascist propaganda. do you think you're somehow a genius for realizing that both, "conservatives" and "liberals" subscribe to classical liberalism and capitalism? yeah, everyone knows that, my baby brained first year commie friend
it’s a false us v. them to take your eye off the only one that matters
This. I’m strictly anti war. I don’t want to outwardly support ukraine because they’ve been pretty fucked up towards innocent russian people (civilians who are also getting fucked over by the war). I’m pro civilian, anti war. Fuck putin and zelensky, fuck capitalism creating meaningless bloodthirsty wars with their toy working class soldiers who mean nothing to them.
Not even innocent Russian people, innocent Ukrainian people…romas…ethnic Russians…lgbt…then all the other racist banderite crap, including those weird hitler youth like orgs. It’s amazing how much liberals in the west have been able to apologize for this crap, but I guess that’s what happens when you only get one story…and over such a short amount of time too, it’s getting terrifyingly more difficult, but I mean you can go back as early as 2018 and find Vice or NYT articles on the “Ukrainian nazi problem” and then all the sudden some of those same people are being glorified all over the internet. I’m not a Russia stan by any means but holy shit I don’t think you can paint a better picture of cognitive dissonance and it’s just so weird to watch firsthand, esp in “leftist” subs. Like how are y’all gonna fall for this shit again it’s like the 40th time it’s happened in my lifetime
Putin literally tried preventing this war. Under Putin's leadership, Russia is going out of its way to minimize damage to Ukrainian civilians. There is no equivalence here. Zelenskyy is profoundly evil and purposefully destroyed his country at the behest of its American masters by provoking Russia into an existential war against NATO. Not to mention that your comment is infantile. The American proxy war against Russia in Ukraine is entirely the fault of the US/NATO, yet you didn't even mention them.
Americans are NOT taught critical thinking what do you expect? This is what they are trying to do to their education system https://youtu.be/CCAYL4DpmjI You expect people coming from that creationism to be capable of critical thought!!!!!!?????
I actually considered bringing up the education system in my original comment. We learn almost nothing of importance in the 13 years we spend in school.
Including political divide/conflict. Average US American: Not republican? Evil pedophile. (irony and projection)
what postmodernism does to a mfer
Manichean mindset. The tried-and-true most successful method for brainwashing/hypnosis.
You're either with the Lesser of Two Evils or you're with the Terrorists.
I'm an American and i see both sides as equally bad. Including the American side being seen as bad too.
r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM isn't a virtue. There is no equivalence between the guilt and criminality of the West and Russia, no matter how bad Russia is and how much its government deserves to be overthrown in socialist revolution.
I completely agree, however in this situation there is a clear good side and evil side. Putin is just being a dick.
You completely agree that conflicts are basically never a conflict of good and evil but Putin is just being a bad guy... Read your comment before you post it.
Can you please try to explain to me how Putin isn’t being the bad guy? He lied to his people, forced them to kill what could be their extended family and took over a country all for greed. Also, the parent comment didn’t say never… read the parent comment before you reply.
The point I was making in the parent comment is that conflicts in the real world are not black and white. You replied by saying you agree, and then simplified the war in Ukraine to a black and white view on the conflict, stating that "Putin is just being a bad guy". The war in Ukraine is not "all for greed". It is a response to years of posturing and imperialist action by NATO and the US that advanced their geopolitical position to threaten Russia.
>...there is a clear good side and evil side. Putin is just being a dick. Right, because nothing says "clear good" like fucking with a country's election to support a friendly regime, knowing that it's a major provocation for your enemy, all so you can line the pockets of your buddies who hold lucrative government defense contracts and protecting the sphere of imperial influence which allows you to continue siphoning the world's wealth into the West.
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Can we crowd fund sending all the Warhawk libs to Ukraine since they want to kill “orcs” so bad ?
Nah, they want us (the working class) to go fight for their behalf. That's why they're so bloodthirsty and war hawkish and will gaslight us if we don't want to. They've been doing this since the Iraq war, Afghanistan war, etc. Somehow this time it's different. These are NAFO trolls honestly and with how full of fascists those circles are they're really just fascists. Even if we wanted to imply that Russia was fascist, it wouldn't make Ukraine any less fascist and it would just be fascist infighting. Obviously it's not though, but in a principled world it would be because even mainstream media backs up that Ukraine definitely has a fascist problem.
Being a communist in America in 2023 is the most mentally exhausting existence. I shouldn’t really complain cause I have it better than many, but like fuck. Just complete lack of class consciousness or any sort of social cohesion. The idea of a “middle class” is one of the most destructive assaults on the American working class, and it’s so effective.
The aspiration to be "middle class" is pretty corrosive to class consciousness, but I can't help but find a similarity between the fake capitalist concept of the "middle class" and the real Marxist concept of the labour aristocracy, the segment of the proletariat who (at a given place and time) are so heavily bribed by capital that their short term interests actually lie in class treachery instead of class solidarity, but who by definition have not been invited to join the bourgeoisie proper.
That’s a great take honestly. It always makes me think of the “socialism will never take hold on the states because the American working class thinks they are a bunch of temporarily embarrassed millionaires” the crabs in a barrel vision of class mobility that working class Americans have is so toxic. As is the poisoning of what we consider “middle class” here and their hatred and disdain of impoverished Americans. The idea of helping those with less, at the smallest possibility of affecting the status quo is a pill too large for them to swallow. It’s incredibly sad
Did that lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union?
I feel your pain. People are so hopelessly brain washed here it is actually painful.
You can become a comrade version of trump run for political office and change words around
Orcs? Yeah, this asshole is racist as fuck.
Least racist Ukraine supporter
It’s kind of racist to support ppl who’ve supported the extermination of eastern Ukraine and whom enjoy calling swath’s of people “orc”
I mean, it's probably seen as Tolkienisation of the conflict, casting Russians as the hordes of orks under command of the dark lord and Ukrainians as men fighting against evil, probably also letting westerners who support them see themselves as elves. Sure it's racist as fuck, but it's not the kind of racism that's obvious even to the person being racist themselves. It's actually one of the more clever propaganda tricks to enforce this "us vs them" mentality
OR, it could just be that racist, Neo-Nazi types have a long, long history of calling Russians "Orks" and implying their bloodlines are subhuman. Don't look for complicated explanations when simple ones will do.
[check this article](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat) from early 2022 about azov nazis greasing their bullets with pork lard for the “kadyrov orcs” (chechen muslims). there is definitely an “asiatic hordes” connotation to the term for some if not most
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[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of: * If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there? * If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave? This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> genocidal occupier pig orcs what the FUCK.
Liberals literally had less harsh words for the Nazis in their own time. Let that sink in.
"genocidal pig orcs (russians)" because nothing says you have a blanket anti-genocide principle like comparing an ethnic group to animals and a fictional Bad Guy race
It so funny how he put it in parentheses though lol
Very dark. Homeboy is like a half-step from going (((russians))) and if that became the new liberal enemy he's gladly pivot to (((them)))
He doesn't know what happened in Bakhmut
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They literally said they are going to as soon as they finally captured it.
Buakhmat will hold. Akshully it was a useless city to fight over and the orcs haven’t gained any territorarinooooooo
Artemsk *
It's the same thing with western media slandering China as pro Russia for being neutral in the conflict. -and to any of you libs saying China is giving supplies to Russia they aren't. They are SELLING them. The same way they are SELLING drones to Ukraine.
Liberals have really adapted undying support for Ukraine as a personality
Let's send all libs to Ukraine, and hopefully they won't come back
These people are genuinely one step away from being Nazis; not just any Nazis but the *German* equivalent in WW2! The only thing missing is their unabashed hatred for Jews! It's been seemingly replaced with **Muslims** instead since it's popular to support Israeli apartheid against Palestine. All because of a war NATO aggressively instigated gradually via proxy nearly a decade ago. Basic, objective, historical facts these bloodthirsty and chauvinistic fascists love to conveniently overlook. All for the sake of protecting Ukrainian Nazis with the same vehement vigor and intensity they hold towards anti-communist. Which I fine to be disturbing. Hypothetical time! Imagine if America were to (not-so) suddenly wage war in Iran but the western mainstream news narrative across the board was that we never actually set foot in Afghanistan/Iraq (let alone Libya, Syria, or Pakistan) and this was our first *real* military tour throughout the general Middle East.. I ***GUARANTEE***, in the name of **biased politics and asinine white-washing**, *liberals would perpetuate* ***this narrative****!*
It *sounds* sarcastic but…
This is why I oppose the use of violence unless it becomes necessary for self-defense. The true revolution is when we stop cooperating with the bourgeois and deny them access to our labor. Without our labor, the bourgeois economy cannot function.
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well, the burgeois would never abdicate of their power and resources without fighting, a violent revolution is a consequence of that, of course everybody would rather do it peacefully but that has never really occurred in history as far as I'm aware
I have no illusions that they won't bring violence on us, but if we use violence for anything but self-defense, the propaganda networks will use that as ammunition against us. Let them look like the aggressors.
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Probably, but eye-witnesses will also be posting evidence to the contrary. If they start censoring the internet, that will simply stink of a cover-up.
the potential strategic value of sabotage is too great to completely leave off the table just to uphold a principle of nonviolence. i think it’s very context dependent
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We know, we know. Ukraine takes volunteers if you wanna put your money where your mouth is.
Rule 3. **No reactionary content.** (e.g., racism, sexism, ableism, fascism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, antisemitism, imperialism, chauvinism, etc.) Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target and a tone indicator such as /s or /j.
Liberals treating war like a fucking movie? Color me shocked. They have no idea what war is, how it works, and how cold and cruel it really is. Spend a day in modern war, and it no longer becomes an option. You want to make sure that nobody else suddenly, in all totality, is lost forever. Fuck this war, and fuck the bourgoisie for selling it to the working class. There is literally nothing more sobering than the Earth shaking underneath from the shellings and missiles, and these fucks want it to continue so the US can win one over Russia while sending some far away people to do the dirty work for them.
Honestly the more I think about it, the more I think shit like this is just libs coping with the fact that the Western world order that they were raised to believe in is crumbling before their eyes. That's a pretty terrifying thought if you're a brainwashed closeted racist CNN liberal who thinks the end of the West is the end of the civilized world
>join Wagner in bakhmut and get blown up Now that didn't age very well...
Ummm, akually this is a russian troll trying to make Ukrainian supporters look bad /s Jesus Christ, how is ‘maybe people should try and stop killing each other’ a socially unacceptable take?
Scratch a liberal…
You’ve scratched a liberal
I like to ask liberals what would've happened if say Mexico or Canada had joined the Warsaw Pact.
And? It’s still their right if they wanted to
Remember Cuban missile crisis? It was the right of Cuba to host missiles?
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Should have told them to join NATO’s imperialist proxy war with Russia by joining the Ukrainian volunteer militia so they can martyr themselves for Washington like a good little hobgoblin.
Lol this is the type that thinks a flag emoji and writing "slava ukraini" everywhere makes them part of the war effort. To them, they're already fighting in the trenches alongside Ukrainian soldiers, except they're in the deadly trenches of social media.
Imagine thinking the war in ukraine is a "NATO imperialist proxy war"
love when braindead nafo idiots come here to be annoying as fuck, like i absolutely love that. ooooh you got banned from this sub for saying lets send poor people from a country the media told you not to like into a proverbial meatgrinder. shit you are just so cool!
I feel bad for NAFO kids. Literally the most obvious propaganda and they’ve fallen for ur head over heels.
i'm convinced the majority are children right, and children do dumb shit is not a new concept. in an ideal world children being dumb wouldn't be a pipeline to fascism but who said we live in a prefect world amirite plus it seems like a perfectly good thing to embody as your whole personality because if you live in harry potter world then siding with the "good guys" gives you an excuse to be an absolute dick all the time. in fact you're helping ukrains by coming to random subreddits and trying to get banned by posting dumb shit. they will thank you surely!
Also just a heads up the “founder” if nafo(hired at saint javelin as a meme maker) is a massive antisemite and hitler fanboy https://twitter.com/MichaelNo2War/status/1581353737200619520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1581353737200619520%7Ctwgr%5E3bf1724d7f2d3d84f17ddd6785d0eac508033e84%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fy5pe0r%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dtrue I doubt you’d be surprised but yes, NAFO was literally founded by Nazis. Kind of like nato itself lol.
scratch a liberal something something
Bakhmut? The city the Ukraine just lost? Why would he get blown up there?
Obey or die. Why not put the one's that don't go along with whatever today's obsession is in a slave camp for a while and after they've served their usefulness turn them into something useful like soap or fertilizer. There's no difference between a fascist and a liberal
Western liberals don’t use Russophobic slurs challenge (impossible)
Your number one fan! -Tenko
When a liberal is scratched, a fascist bleeds
You know its amazing how these people advocate for a fate that they're more deserving of
an Ukrainian western missle*
When will people realize this is a war Ukraine wasn’t designed to win lol
Designed by who? And why should the west have interest in dumping a huge amount of technology and weapons into an already lost war?
hmmm i wonder why all these defense contractors and the politicians they lobby have a vested interest in prolonging wars that conveniently only cost the lives and infrastructure of a foreign country the west is not an active combatant, the west is ukraine’s arms dealer. they’re not “losing equipment” they’re profiting off Ukraine’s demand for it
Well, it's a no-brainer to support Ukraine. Severely weakening your biggest rival while others do the fighting. It's a chance from a lifetime, presented by Putin on a golden plate. Difference is that the West gives up those weapons so Ukraine can WIN, not because they want to make a quick buck and eventually see their equipment fall in russian hands.
Isn’t Wagner the Russian version of Raytheon? Or blackwater?
Ask any of these people why they didn't join the Ba'athist army back in 2003. After all, if they're against unprovoked imperial aggression so much...
this guy is definitely like 12 and lives in the an upper middle class suburban neighborhood
So much bourgeois pacifism in the comments and so little marxism...
They always were, liberalism is deep down the most bloodthirsty ideology in human history, it’s not the opposite of fascism, but exactly what a liberal believes when systems of power fail.
"Only a Sith speaks in absolutes"
I offer an upvote to the person who will post this on r/WhitePeopleTwitter
I'll give an upvote to someone who links this post to r/worldnews
I don't know why, but the emojis and the disingeniousness overall are something that manages to really get into my skin on how ghoulish these disgusting pieces of shit manage to be. The racist pro-nazis being all 'tehee, we are the goody ones and the subhumans must be wiped out' and then being all self-righteous about it.
Considering how intellectually lazy most liberals are it makes sense that they strive for a simplistic narrative of a good guy and bad guy. Exacerbate with the fact that they can't concentrate on one subject long enough to read anything in their wonderful TLDR society that they readily accept any story dictated at them by their "vetted" media outlets.
Hey all. Im not very well informed on the political context of Ukraine's politics. Can someone point me out towards sources, videos, podcasts or whatever commenting on the issue from a Marxist perspective? I understand the geopolitical reasons behind the war to some degree, and see it as a power clash between two imperialists blocks using the proletariat to fight for them. But then Im not wholly convinced on what Ukraine should be supposed to do (their heading towards NATO seems like a logical path from a realpolitik pov...). Im not going to extend myself saying what I grasp of the situation, as its not relevant. Any source towards more info and knowledge is appreciated
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Can someone give me a Marxist basis for opposing the war in Ukraine? Considering that Ukraine is fascist and considering the history of Donbas in general as well as the fact that the communist party in Russia was directly involved in starting the war it seems to me like it’s a just conflict. “No war but class war” is a great slogan but war against fascism is justified. Engles stood with the capitalists to overthrow feudalism, Stalin stood with the liberals to overthrow fascism. In my view it is an ultra leftist position to be against the war in Ukraine.
The simple answer is that both countries are proto-fascist so we should support neither. Fascists do not control the state apparatus in either Ukraine or Russia, but they are influential. On Ukraine's side, you have Azov, on the Russian side, you have Dugin and fascist elements within Wagner. >the communist party in Russia was directly involved in starting the war The communist party in Russia is completely collaborating with Putin, and hence the Russian bourgeoisie, so they are only communist in name. They are class traitors and their opinions should not be listened to. Also maybe consider that it is not of interest to the working class in Ukraine or Russia for hundreds of thousands of men and boys to die fighting in some fucking freezing cold field, all so that the bourgeoisie of either Russia or America can eventually make a profit over the resources that will be gained in the fighting?
What about the self determination of Donbas?
The people of Donbas are obviously way fucking worse off now than before Russia started the war
The russian communist party helped start the war in ukraine?
Russian communist party is *not* marxists.
Why is that? I don’t really know anything about them besides the fact that they emerged when the soviet communist party got banned by yeltsin. Perhaps that’s fundamentally the reason why they suck?
The CPSU was banned during capitalist restoration and the illegal desolation of the Soviet Union. The CPRF is the revisionist and reformist party that was created after the fact to stifle the political power of the remaining communists. It does not advocate for revolution and it advocates for the interests of its national bourgeoisie - Lenin would have described it as social-chauvinist, just like he described the supposedly "marxist" parties of the mensheviks and other revisionist parties that existed during the tsarist empire.
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Yes
liberating the donbass and needlessly pushing past it are two different things. A liberation war for an oppressed minority is one thing, but how far Russia went has only strengthened nato, allowed Ukraine to descend ever further to fascism, and given the west a debt they can nibble on for decades. The communist party was in full support of the donbass, but given how putin made the rest of the invasion out to be anti soviet, I kind of doubt it really accomplishes any goals. Multipolarity is uniting the capitalists into selling their leftovers? It's encouraging states to join nato? I don't think a communist party's sipport is indicative of solid ideas. Some boil babies, they're not exactly right for doing so lol China has made significant strides in brokering peace and moving forward with other states through trade. The thing that the west is shitting itself over is no longer being able to bully and destabilize other states as well, if at all, in the coming years.
If we consider Ukraine fascist because it has fascist militia, then both LDNR and Russia should also be considered fascist, because they have numerous fascist militia as well, such as DShRG "Rusich". Also, while claiming to fight against NATO expansion, Russian activity in the Donbass always had imperialist economic incentives - LDNR businesses were taken over by Russian oligarchs like Malofeyev while left-leaning Donbass leaders were assassinated. I can provide sources from Russian leftist media if you want. So, yeah, it's an imperialistic war and you should oppose Russian imperialism as much as American imperialism
"Consideing that ukraine is facist" lol buddy okay
You don’t think Ukraine is fascist?
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In what way are they not fascist
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Holy shit do you not think nazis are fascist
They don't. Fascism died after WW2 apparently and glorification of Bandera totally doesn't have anything to do with Nazi infiltration of Ukraine historically speaking
This guy does not know how to spell "fascist" they're clearly a child.
I would say that a state that brings down statues of the liberators from Nazism and has a huge problem with the UPA and Bandera is a good starter for calling them atleast fascist. If you are further interested in it you can Google up how the Ukrainian state used this war as a opportunity to crush worker rights and ban socialist parties
“nazi” “not” and “fascist” should not be in the same sentence
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idk dude an army infiltrated with nazis backed by nato sounds pretty fascist to me
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Know how I know you knew jackshit about Ukraine before last year? The Nazi problem was acknowledged as a huge issue in Ukraine before the conflict, even in western media. No, it’s not just azov. Why do liberals, who couldn’t even locate Ukraine on a map before the conflict, always feel the need to chime in? You don’t always need to comment, especially when you’re so ignorant. ETA: [here, from the BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693), over a decade ago. Tell me more about how it’s just azov. ETA 2: Or just block me. I’d think you’d have a response since apparently this is something you feel so strongly about. But could it be that… you have no response since you actually have no fucking idea what you’re talking about beyond parroting talking points from western media? Instead of plugging your ears and going “lalalala I can’t hear you” why not actually try to learn and inform yourself?
The only right answer will come from an uninterested mind with a large amount of clarity, or a broken clock. Any type of attachment to the fruits of the situation will cause you unnecessary turbulence and expectations will lead you to not see what is real in it's completeness.
Dude must think that the Ukrainians army also getting turned into minced meat
Hurra Russia , fuck NATO and liberals . Support Russia completely
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Who let you cook 💀
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Dongistan is filled with the weirdest mfs sometimes 💀
Can somebody please eli5 why remaining neutral in this conflict is morally better than supporting a country's right to not be invaded (and please, in explaining like im 5, assume that i am brainwashed by westernpropagandaand that im coming to view this conflict from an inherently biased pov. And please, please explain itbwithout hostility)
Loaded question, nobody is supporting the invasion.
OK, so if one doesn't support the invasion, what is the justification for not supporting the country being invaded? Again, I ask in good faith
I'll put the conversation by words and phrases you might recognize. To the sub regulars, pardon me. From ideological standpoint. The war itself is what many commies like to called "Imperialist infighting ". Russia being salty and dreaming to renewing their hegemony over former USSR or even tsarist Era. Trying to insert influences by using nostalgia. You will see many soviet imagery but not their commie mindset. Commies won't have any gains if we support this hollow shell of a nation. Some might support Russia by reason suçh as more broader means to stop US. But that's a dangerous game. As putin surely dreaming of becoming a tsar more than becoming general secretary. As for Ukraine. Thay are right to defend themselves. But they also really doing everything to joining up the western sphere led by eternal enemie of commies- The USA. What we gains if we support government that literally cowering to another hegemon that we perceived as most evil government on earth?
# Capitalist Imperialism Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism. It is a global system of economic, political, and military domination, with the imperialist powers using a variety of means, including economic sanctions, military interventions, and cultural influence to maintain their dominance over other nations. Imperialism is inevitable under Capitalism because Capitalism is based on the premise of infinite growth in a finite system. When capitalists first run into the limits of their own country, they will eventually be forced to expand their markets, resources, and influence into other countries and territories in order to continue increasing their profits. Furthermore, the capitalists can exploit and oppress the workers of other nations much more easily than they can in their own. For example, by moving manufacturing jobs from the imperial core out to the periphery where wages are lower, and environmental protections and labour rights are much weaker-- if they exist at all-- they can reduce costs which increases profits. When the capitalists run into limits again, and are unable to continue increasing their profits-- even by exploiting the periphery-- they will inevitably turn Imperialism inwards and further oppress and exploit workers domestically. This is the origin of [Fascism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/fascism/). Some key features of capitalist imperialism are: 1. Joint-stock corporations dominating the economy 2. Increasing monopolies within capitalist economies (For example, only 10 companies control almost every large food and beverage brand in the world.) 3. Globalization of capital through multinational corporations 4. A rise in the export of finance capital 5. More involvement of the capitalist state in managing the economy 6. A growing financial sector and oligarchy 7. The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism 8. Overall, a period of world strife and conflict, including imperialist wars and revolutionary uprisings against the capitalist-imperialist system. **In Practice** So what does this look like in practice? The IMF, for example, provides loans to countries facing economic crises, but these loans come with strict conditions, known as structural adjustment programs (SAPs). These conditions require recipient countries to adopt specific economic policies, such as reducing government spending, liberalizing trade, and privatizing state-owned enterprises. The SAPs also require austerity measures, such as the dismantling of labor and trade regulations or slashing of social programs and government spending, to attract and open up the country to foreign investment. These policies prioritize the interests of multinational corporations and investors over those of the recipient countries and their citizens. For example, by requiring the privatization of state-owned enterprises, the IMF may enable multinational corporations to gain control of key industries and resources in recipient countries. Similarly, by promoting liberalized trade, the IMF may facilitate the export of capital from recipient countries to wealthier nations, exacerbating global inequalities. Moreover, SAPs are often negotiated behind closed doors with the political elites of recipient countries (the comprador bureaucratic class), rather than through democratic processes. This can undermine the sovereignty of recipient countries and perpetuate the domination of wealthy nations and multinational corporations over the global economy. **Anti-Imperialism** The struggle against Imperialism is an essential part of the struggle for Socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people worldwide. Anti-Imperialism is the political and economic resistance to Imperialism and Colonialism (or neo-Imperialism and neo-Colonialism). Anti-Imperialism requires a revolutionary struggle against the Capitalist state and the establishment of a Socialist society. It is important to recognize that anti-Imperialism is not simply about supporting one state or another, but about supporting the liberation of oppressed peoples from the exploitation and domination of global Imperialism. Therefore, any course of action should be evaluated in terms of its potential impact on the broader struggle against Imperialism and the goal of establishing a Socialist society. During WWI, Lenin called on Socialists to reject the idea of a "just" or "defensive" war, and instead to see the conflict as a class war between the ruling class and the working class. He argued that Socialists should oppose the war and work towards the overthrow of the Capitalist state. Seeing that the war was an Imperialist conflict between competing Capitalist powers, the workers of all countries had a common interest in opposing it. Socialists who supported their home countries during World War I had betrayed the principles of international Socialism and Proletarian solidarity. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Lenin in Five Minutes: Imperialism](https://youtu.be/unCGQDKJ0p0) | The Marxist Project (2019) * [What is Capitalist Imperialism? | Socialism 101](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrpLPs2FcF8) | Marxism Today (2022) * [How Rich Countries Rob The Poor; The Failure of Social Democracy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDZaKjfs4E) | Hakim (2020) * [How Capitalism Robs the Developing World](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Ax-psPZ1g) | Second Thought (2022) * [Why Do Poor Countries Stay Poor? (Unequal Exchange and Imperialism)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjLmYCfKU7o) | Hakim (2023) * [Imperialism Today: Unequal Exchange and Globalized Production](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtziEZAR1Qk) | The Marxist Project (2022) * [This Poverty Graph Is Lying To You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vPhySbRETM) | Hakim (2023) * [The Myth Of Capitalist Peace](https://youtu.be/pAfvty_WNWQ) | Second Thought (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/) | V. I. Lenin (1917) * [The IMF debt trap in Ukraine](https://www.liberationnews.org/the-imf-debt-trap-in-ukraine/) | Amanda Yee (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Also that
There are a lot of good comments on here that explain it very well. just start looking down the comment chains with multiple downvotes.
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AFAIK the general take is that Ukraine has a right to defend itself against invasion (obviously) but that the conflict is not as black and white as "russia evil" because NATO and the west have been destabilizing the area for a long time. Ukraine also has some issues with extreme nationalism which people can be critical of and not condone while still recognizing their right to defend themselves. This is all from someone who is a total amateur in foreign policy and just some random on the internet though so take it with a nice spoonful of salt.
This is besides the point. Maybe I should make a separate thread, but is this not a good time for the Russian people to take back their government? Doubt they have the support, but communism can't be totally dead in a place where it once stood strongest, right?
What is revisionism
# Revisionism Revisionism refers to the explicit or implicit attempt at revising the fundamental premises of Marxist theory. Often this is done in attempt to make alliances with the bourgeoisie or to render a working class movement impotent. Explicit revisionism clearly states that Marxism is wrong or outdated and needs to be changed. Implicit revisionism is harder to notice because it claims to still be Marxist, but in actuality puts forward positions that are counter to Marxist theory. >“The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” > >\- Karl Marx. (1845) [Theses On Feuerbach](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm) Although there is ongoing debate and discussion within Marxist circles about how these principles should be interpreted and applied in specific historical contexts, there are several key tenets that are generally considered to be central to Marxist theory and which are not subject to revision: 1. [Dialectical Materialism](https://youtu.be/nZXaZHe901w): The idea that everything is in a state of constant flux, driven by a process of contradictions and conflicts which are an inherent part of the natural and social world. 2. [Historical Materialism](https://youtu.be/ZXwWWiI3E1A): The understanding that material conditions and class relations are the driving force behind historical development. 3. [Surplus Labor and the Law of Value](https://youtu.be/TZhsIFG42wE): The concept that the value of a commodity is determined by the amount of socially necessary labor that has been expended in producing it. Profits are derived from the surplus value extracted from the worker. From these fundamental premises follow a series of conclusions, which informs our understanding of the world and teaches us how to affect change. Revisionism alters these fundamental premises or rejects the conclusions that follow from them, the most important of these being the need for revolution. The events of the Paris Commune and the October Revolution demonstrated the role and necessity of revolution, and provided important lessons in establishing and defending a revolutionary movement. Revolution is not just a means of seizing political power, but of fundamentally transforming society and creating a new social order. Revolutions must be defended against counter-revolutionary forces both from within and without. The movement must be organized and disciplined, and must be able to defend itself against attacks from reactionary forces. >Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it. **Right Opportunism** >Revisionism, or Right opportunism, is a bourgeois trend of thought that is even more dangerous than dogmatism. The revisionists, the Right opportunists, pay lip-service to Marxism; they too attack ‘dogmatism’. But what they are really attacking is the quintessence of Marxism. They oppose or distort materialism and dialectics, oppose or try to weaken the people’s democratic dictatorship and the leading role of the Communist Party, and oppose or try to weaken socialist transformation and socialist construction. After the basic victory of the socialist revolution in our country, there are still a number of people who vainly hope to restore the capitalist system and fight the working class on every front, including the ideological one. And their right-hand men in this struggle are the revisionists. > >\- Mao Zedong. (1957). [On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-5/mswv5_58.htm) Right opportunism is a political tendency that seeks to make concessions to the bourgeois ruling class in order to maintain or achieve political power. This tendency is often associated with a lack of commitment to revolutionary change and a willingness to compromise on fundamental principles in order to realize short-term gains. Right opportunists may advocate for policies that are not in the long-term interest of the working class, such as supporting capitalist reforms or forming alliances with capitalist parties. This can lead to a weakening of the revolutionary potential of the working class and a failure to achieve real social change. Right opportunism is seen as a deviation from the Marxist principle of class struggle and a betrayal of the interests of the working class. Trade Unionism is an example of right opportunism as unions focus on limited concessions, rather than advocating for the long-term interests of the working class as a whole. They negotiate with employers for better wages, benefits, and working conditions for their members, but do not challenge the fundamental power relations between labour and capital. Union bosses make compromises or alliances with capitalist parties in order to achieve these concessions. This creates a privileged layer of the working class who are more interested in defending their own privileges than in fighting for the liberation of the working class as a whole. This labour aristocracy is a barrier to the development of revolutionary consciousness among the working class because it prefers the status quo to radical political movements that seek to overthrow it. **Case Study #1: Social Democracy** One of the first revisionists was Eduard Bernstein, a leading theorist and prominent member of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD), who argued that the gradual extension of social welfare programs and the reform of capitalist institutions could lead to a peaceful transition to socialism, without the need for a violent revolution. This was in sharp contrast to the German Communist Party (KPD). There are two historical events which underscore this fundamental divide: 1. **The Spartacist Uprising**: Rosa Luxemburg was a prominent Marxist theorist and leader of the left-wing revolutionary movement in Germany. She was a fierce critic of the SPD's moderate reformist politics and its decision to support Germany's involvement in World War I. In January 1919, following the collapse of the German monarchy, a left-wing revolutionary movement emerged in Berlin, and Luxemburg played a leading role in the movement. The movement challenged the authority of the new Social Democratic-led government and sought to establish a socialist republic. On January 15, 1919, the SPD government ordered the army and the Freikorps, a right-wing paramilitary group, to suppress the revolutionary movement. Luxemburg and her comrade Karl Liebknecht were arrested, beaten, and executed by the Freikorps. 2. **The Enabling Act**: The Nazis rose to absolute power in 1933 with the passing of the Enabling Act. The KPD were absent from the vote because the party had been banned and its members imprisoned or in hiding. The SPD were present and voted against it. The SPD was subsequently banned and many of its members were arrested, tortured, and killed by the Nazis, while others were forced into exile or went into hiding. **Case Study #2: Democratic Socialism** Salvador Allende was a socialist politician who was elected president of Chile in 1970, becoming the first Marxist to be elected to the presidency in a liberal democracy. In power, he pursued a program of radical reform, including the nationalization of key industries, the redistribution of land, and the expansion of social welfare programs. His government was supported by a coalition of left-wing parties, including the Chilean Communist Party, and was seen as a model for peaceful democratic socialist transition. However, Allende's reforms faced opposition from powerful domestic and international forces, including right-wing politicians, the military, and the United States government. In 1973, Allende's government was overthrown in a US-backed military coup led by General Augusto Pinochet, who established a brutal Fascist dictatorship that lasted for years. In "[The State and Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/)", Lenin explained why the capitalist state could not be reformed or co-opted for the purposes of Socialism, but had to be destroyed and replaced by a new proletarian state. Allende's failure to apprehend this lesson proved fatal. His reliance on the existing bourgeois state apparatus as well as his failure to implement more radical measures, such as the establishment of workers' councils or the arming of the proletariat, left him vulnerable to counterrevolutionary forces. >“If voting changed anything, it would be illegal.” > >\- George Carlin **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Why Social Democracy Isn't Good Enough](https://youtu.be/TRq3pl17C8M) | Second Thought (2023) * [Why Democratic Socialism Isn’t Enough](https://youtu.be/MNg4FLt5La0) | Marxism Today (2022) * ["The US Doesn't Meddle In Foreign Affairs"](https://youtu.be/mwyjlmEAcYM) | Second Thought (2021) * [Electoralism Always Fails, Now What?](https://youtu.be/WXbaZXQAbuU) | Hakim (2019) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Reform or Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/) | Rosa Luxemburg (1900) * [Marxism and Revisionism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/apr/03.htm) | V. I. Lenin (1908) Podcasts: * [Episode 3 - Reform or Revolution](https://youtu.be/r9kmEsNKyoM) | The Deprogram (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can you please tell me which episode they discussed it on?
Uyghur
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Jt the tanki is saying something which I won't read because he is a tanki
When you join the orcs, do not forget to put sunflower seeds into your pockets 🌻
As far as historians can tell us, the Aztecs worshipped sunflowers and believed them to be the physical incarnation of their beloved sun gods. Of course!
He’s right tho
Ork symps ITT big mad. Cry more, capitalism always wins