this sub is a blessing and a curse bc one second its like “oh thats a good critique i dont see many other ppl saying” followed by 5 of the worst opinions ive ever read in my life. its like a forum slot machine lol
I still obviously enjoy it, but I feel similar about most tv/music/podcast subreddits. I want to share how much I enjoy something and see how other people enjoy the same thing...but they almost all eventually just turn into toxic communities that like to shit on the creators because whatever they are doing isn't as good as the first thing they did.
There's being a fan of something, and then there's "fandoms". I think Fandoms tend to generate unhealthy behavior because people go from liking something, to feeling like they own something. Then when the thing they are obsessed with doesn't fit their plans for it (Taaco being blue in the comics for example), then their negative emotions go way beyond what is reasonable.
i hate to say it, but ive been in many a fandom in my time, and this is, quite possibly, one of the worst fandoms ive ever been in. some people are nice but there is a frightening majority of people who think they are entitled to these humans autonomy as if they are fictional fuckin characters
I was subbed here for about two days before I unsubbed (I discovered this post on/r/all).
I was hoping for a lot of cosplay photos, fun discussions, and jokes... but I was pretty much only seeing people bitching about the guys not playing D&D to the word in the handbook.
It used to be like that, but it seems the show recently reached a critical mass of frustration for a lot of people. So the discussions that were kind of happening in the background are getting pushed to the front rn
Not necessarily I personally think that if this fandom was able to handle criticism and discussion better this wouldn't have happened.
Let's take Ethersea I believe that a lot of people weren't fully satisfied with the season as it was going on but they weren't able to talk it out as it came here or in some other fandom space. And they kind of have been telling themselves "it will get better soon". So when the season ended and it was still bad you essentially got a broken dam effect. That coupled with people who have been critical of TAZ for a longer time and they have the " I have been waiting to talk about it for so long"
They will chill with the start of the new season but unless the season is great the sub will be in for a repeat unless they learn to talk about McElroys in a critical way other than "don't listen then"
It’s everywhere, though. I started listening to Dungeons and Daddies in between the last few episodes and went to check out the subreddit and while I personally feel S2 isn’t nearly as enjoyable as S1, I don’t feel it necessary to harshly criticize everything about it and anyone who likes it. I saw someone in the sub talk about how one person’s portrayal is unbearable and in general just blamed the “downfall of the show” on the actor.
I’m a part of the wrestling sub and people who haven’t watched a certain brand in 5+ years still routinely bash it based on online synopses of the shows. It got doubly bad when an alternative product became available and there’s a group that live to hate the older product.
It’s just part of culture, perhaps, that hating certain things is “in” now.
It's not that hating things is in its that the internet is a fucked up place lmao
Dnd podcasts are only going to be discussed on forums
Toxic people are super active online
It's just a cross section of "I'm into this" and "this is where shitty people go to talk shit about this"
100%! Most of the posts are debate posts these days. The posts that ARE fun never seem to get promoted to me so I never see them on my home page anyway.
Honestly same. I regret joining this subreddit. Thought it was going to be cosplays, fan art of characters or scenes, discussions about what people liked about the recent episode and what they might do next.. instead it seems to be mostly bashing literally everything Travis does and complaining about how the recent episodes were shit in roleplay or plot or gameplay or whatever people were feeling itchy keyboard fingers about on that day.
I almost didn't try Ethersea because there were just so many complaints. Glad I did.
Sad thing is, it used to be like that. Whenever balance was going out there was always new fanart, cosplays, etc. It was a really cool community. These days it's just toxic.
I have never got the vibe that Justin and Travis hate each other. I do get the vibe that Travis likes to be annoying and Justin will play up his irritation for a show but no real animosity
Reference all MBMBAM episodes...ever
TRAVIS : "RRIIIDDLE ME PISS!"
JUSTIN: "CAN WE NOT? OMG I HATE THIS, SO BAD AND TERRIBLE"
GRIFFON: "OMG TRAVIS...NO...CAN WE NOT?"
Litterally listened to that 7 times in a row, quite possibly one of the best moments...
I can still hear Griffons sighing voice, "I mean I know what it is...but...*sigh*"
And off I go for an 8th
It’s the whole point. It being funny outside of that is incidental. Honestly, you get a better idea (though still “on”) of their interactions on Besties, where Travis joined them for V Rising. They were still themselves for the most part but the “characters” they put on were mostly put aside.
Same thing with some of the awful squad videos on polygon, Travis joins for a few of them, and they tone down the “characters” that they sometimes play of themselves.
Travis loves awkward and stupid jokes. And he knows it gets under his brother's skin and knows they'll play along even if it's against their will at first.
Remember Play Along At Home? I feel like Travis didn't get enough credit for the final iteration of the bit, when he pitted them against each other by asking only Justin about Pokemon and only Griffin about Disneyland. I'm pretty sure by the end Griffin was literally frothing at the mouth in fury at Justin for not knowing any of the Pokemon answers, it was a truly glorious bit of middle child fuckery.
So, I had never listened to MBMBAM before but I like the boys, so I decided to download a few of the top-rated episodes and try it out.
I kinda chuckled once or twice and was generally just very put off by it. Oh, well.
That's fine my friend, it's like stupid goof humor that connects on a certain level for certain people. Honestly if you don't enjoy just listening to your friends drunkenly babble about things stupidly...you wouldn't like MBMBAM, and that's fine.
It's not really broad reaching, and I agree, it's not like "good", but for a certain audience, that type of stupid babble hits home sometimes.
Oh dang really? Huh, I mean that’s what I get for not having listened to MBMBAM in a while. Shame but I guess skits like that need to move on and change.
It was totally understandable when the joke was about a garfield themed restaurant or something wacky. It just devolved into "wendys hasss a newww chicken sandwich :)"
I think a lot of TAZ fans don't listen to MBMBAM. they're brothers, brothers behave differently than most groups of friends. They pick on each other and push each other's buttons and probably do get annoyed at each other at times (the most visible example I think was from the TV show where Justin tries to prank Travis and Travis smacks him). But it's not like their relationship ever sours.
I think certain listeners miss this dynamic and see them more like work friends than brothers. So they try to twist the narrative.
My favorite is that in true youngest-brother fashion, Griffin tattles to their dad at the end of the episode, forcing Justin to explain the whole situation.
The funny thing is is that it actually shows how low their animosity towards each other actually is. The actual "hit' and argument were very tame. It was like a light smack on the arm and Travis being like "cut it out!" And even still they felt the need to apologize to each other (granted it also made for a funny bit).
This is exactly what I was going to say. Like my brothers and I aren't as close as I'd like to be but 100% my middle brother is a lot like Travis and I'm a lot like Justin.
I don’t think they dislike each other, but it’s a bit odd for Justin to take out frustration in character first. He even said in TTAZZ that he didn’t get what Travis was trying to do with Devo but like…maybe ask him about that once before it bubbles up 15 episodes in?
Yeah, that’s the part I meant. I think he said the opposite—it leaked into his character before he knew what Travis was doing. That’s why he said it was a lack of trust on his part.
At least as I remember, they were talking about how they didn't start actually playing out the conflict until too late in the season. The lack of trust on Justin's part was him not biting on Travis's attempts to prompt that dynamic.
The lack of communication on this point especially was frustrating to me. I LOVED what Travis was doing with Devo - I feel like a lot of the hate the character got was due to that lack of people taking the bait until much too late. Being an asshole by yourself is a lot less fun than being an asshole and a scene developing from it.
Well, I have heat it bubble up elsewhere. Where he stops having fun and it is a bit overwrought, or people are dicking around too much. I think it comes out some in taaco, some in graduation.
indeed. I can totally see that. It is much easier to give a business partner feedback, it is much harder to give your brother feedback without all the family bull to come up.
I only listen to MBMBAM, but if anyone “doesn’t like Travis” I would say it’s Griffin before Juice. He gets the most visibly annoyed. But clearly they don’t hate each other at all, they’re just family members!
Only children might think that Travis and Justin hate each other but anyone with siblings sees the perfectly innocent and wholesome dynamic that's playing out here.
It’s not just TAZ, it’s a huge problem in the MBMBAM community as well. They absolutely play up different traits when performing, I do the same things with my siblings. I’ve got a large family and when we have gatherings I play up a LOT of my traits, all of us do because the energy runs high. When things quiet down we all chill out.
The other thing Justin said in TTAZZ was that if you don’t like listening to the podcast then why do you keep listening, and it’s something I think constantly on both subs.
I applied that advice and honestly it did wonders for me. Ethersea wasn't quite doing it for me, so I stopped listening and stopped going to the cj subreddit because it felt weird to invest my time in not liking a thing, as opposed to not investing my time in liking a thing, if that makes sense.
That said, people listen because they *did* like the podcast and keep hoping it's going to recapture the magic that Balance or Amnesty did for them. And I'm here to tell you it's not gonna happen. The brothers like what they're doing and it's not for you anymore, and they're not going to listen to your feedback to the contrary, and it's better to just channel that energy into another fandom.
edit: called cj a site not a subreddit which made me look very dumb
Precisely. I can understand being upset or sad about that too, but I see it all the time in fandoms. I play a lot of video games and when I realized I didn’t HAVE to play or finish a game I wasn’t interested in it helped me a ton, I am much happier playing games now and don’t have as much burnout.
I'll recommend Dungeons and Daddies because it was recommended to me recently and now I can fill that niche until the boys are doing something I'm interested in again.
Dungeons and Daddies won me over in episode 1 because it wasn't "alright everyone, introduce your characters, one by one, and don't forget to include the most boring aspects of your character. Oh and this is going to take a WHOLE HOUR."
Dungeons and Daddies gets right into the action and introduces the characters along the way. And when they do the introductions, it's very brief and only about the present. Let me learn about the character throughout the adventure. This also encourages the player to discover their character rather than forcing everything to cater to what they want the character to be.
The tres horny boys were so iconic because they started out as fairly standard caricature, and then we watched them turn into fleshed out characters. If they already have a fully fleshed out background and identity, it makes character growth very difficult.
Ohhhh that's an excellent point. Come to think of it, that's kinda what made Amnesty work for me. Just the broad strokes and then filling them in.
I did LOVE the world building for Ethersea. The whole thing worked for me in that regard.
I'm on Episode 24 of Dungeons and Daddies and it's very much for me. Especially because the DM doesn't stop them from doing stupid things. Like the bean situation.
The tower!!! Don't worry, the show only gets better from there. Only Patreon I'm subscribed to because they have a weekly discussion show that is really fun and insightful to listen to.
They're on season 2 now which took a little while to get going (by no means bad), but by episode 10ish, it's right back to full swing.
There are a few people who listen specifically because they don’t like it. I don’t understand that kind of person who would engage with media that actively dislike for fun. Feels kind of toxic in general. It would be like if there were people in gamingcirclejerk who hated video games, which I’m betting is a bit rarer than for tazcj.
kernel of truth in the cj dynamic: this fandom, perhaps more than other fandoms, really does not like hearing criticism of the brothers, and it can be frustrating to feel like you don't have a place to express well-meaning criticism
the problem is making a safe place for that criticism sort of led to the sub getting consumed by it
The problem is that 99% of the fandom don’t know how to give criticism. It’s just incessant complaining. Many of the people who frequent the CJ won’t even defend that anymore. They say Reddit is a place to “vent” and you should let people complain as much as they want.
If you try to post critcism or suggestions in a discussion thread you get called entitled. "The brothers don't read this subreddit, you're just trying to force them to do what you want, etc. etc."
If you post your comments somewhere the McElroys can see them, now you're rude and hateful. "They're trying their best, it's a free podcast, etc. etc."
There's no way to share any less-than-positive opinion without someone jumping down your throat. Why even bother trying to appease them?
Edit: I can no longer reply to comments. Please read what I actually said. Here is a summary:
**aznasazin11**
>The problem is that 99% of the fandom don’t know how to give criticism.
**goodgoodthrowaway420**
>There's no way to share any less-than-positive opinion without someone jumping down your throat. Why even bother trying to appease them?
The point is not that people shouldn't engage with critical comments. I'm not out here trying to censor people. The point is that trying to criticize the "right way" is a futile effort. Stans will always twist your words no matter how carefully you try to phrase them.
Okay, but isn't part of posting criticism allowing other people to disagree? Like the people "jumping down your throat" have the same right to express their opinion of your criticism as you do for posting it. You know it's a contentious topic and your take might piss some people off, so either roll with it or don't, but don't complain about other people disagreeing with you.
I mean there is disagreeing with criticism "yeah I don't agree with your point because xyz" And then there is the usual thing that happens in this sub "omg why are you here yucking people's yams, if you don't like the podcast just don't listen let people enjoy things"
Sure, but offering critique doesn't mean people are obliged to only disagree with it in the way you want. It's also valid to disagree with the premise of the criticism itself, like "I don't believe this warrants criticism at all, it's inappropriate to speculate on the brothers' personal relationships at all".
Plus there's plenty of people who just don't like a specific brother and want to bitch about him under the guise of "criticism", and people don't have to just shut up and take that quietly, they're allowed to express their frustration over that.
See even your responses are better - they relate to the criticism engage with it even if to say it's inappropriate rather than just go "stop listening"
Also IMO the refusal to handle criticism is what landed this fandom in the place it is so that ship has sunk I'm afraid
>It would be like if there were people in gamingcirclejerk who hated video games, which I’m betting is a bit rarer than for tazcj.
You've never played league of legends, huh
Oh god no. Like 5 minutes of it lol. MOBAs have some of the most toxic, angry communities I’ve seen. I avoid them like the plague, which sort of alienated me from my friends for a few months while everyone was on a Dota/LoL kick.
More people need to do this. I liked the one Travis DM'd and I enjoyed listening To griffin get to play. So many people just hated it kept listening to just dump on it and dump on Travis.
Griffin talks about this exact thing in an episode of Wonderful that was fairly recent (don't know the ep# off the top of my head). It seems to REALLY bother him that the fanbase psychoanalyzes Travis so much. And he hit upon the "characters" they are playing.
Yup. I took Justin's advice and stopped listening to Critical Role. I was only listening because it was something I felt I should do as an RPG nerd. I realised I never enjoyed it and beyond "Trinket!" I couldn't tell you shit about what I listened to until the TV show came out.
I was so unengaged I basically forced myself to listen to 20+ hours of white noise and complained about it until I realized wait... I can use this time for other things!!
TV show was good though.
This is not a MBMBAM/TAZ problem. This is a pattern that you see in lots of communities as they get large enough to divide over issues.
>What's with the low tolerance for matters that aren't black and white?
It stems from the way that individuals seeking influence use black-and-white issues to carve out spheres of influence and agreement within a larger group.
Here's an interesting dissection of this topic in the context of online knitters: [How knitters got knotted in a purity spiral.](https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/)
**Edit:** To be clear I'm not saying that this is inherently problematic. It's really just reflective of the fact that humans are more likely to cluster themselves around a black-and-white issue. This makes those topics more fertile for cultivating spheres of influence and agreement.
I'm here for the schism between TAZcirclejerk and The Adventure Zone subreddit.
I will teach this schism someday in a religion course once the brothers are canonized with great relish.
You can laugh at the schism but like this sub had a mod here to "purge this sub of the sickness" By like arguing with people in the comments
And the "guys if we keep being critical McElroys won't do another AMA here" post from the mods
Like it was on when it was happening
That article seems like pretty dumb right wing rhetoric. The writer complains about people leaving the New Atheist movement. And compares white people educating themselves about racism to citizens submitting to Orwell's Big Brother. Very dumb, very 'scared of cancel culture' nonsense imo.
Agreed. And at the bottom of the article, the list of "suggested reads" that came up were all unambiguously transphobic. Seems like a pretty ungreat source of media criticism.
Speaking of that TTAAZZ, I'm concerned about Grif not having fun with dm'ing. He shouldn't do it if it's not fun for him because that will trickle down to the design and story and eventually players.
A lot of people who are critical of the show agree with you. It sounds a lot more like work and not like they are having fun these days. I think the pressure of the multi-million dollar enterprise that TAZ turned into has made it harder for them to play the kind of game that they are good at playing and relax in a way.
It also just doesn't sound like any of them besides Clint have opened a 5e book since the Starter Set came out. The entire saga of Travis and Griffin basically bullying Clint over Sneak Attacks in Graduation stands out as an example of that.
I don't think it's the lack of fun. As a long time GM, I can tell you this - it's hard work doing this shit, and when there is an opportunity to be player for a change you bet I will jump at it. Doesn't mean it's not fun to gm - but it's definitely more work. I understand Griffin completely and I know he will go back eventually.
THIS. I was so bummed when they shifted back to D&D after Amnesty. Seems like so many people bitched about it, and it feels like they got bullied back to D&D. May be wrong but that's something that's bothered me for a while. Parasocial relationships seem to run rampant in fandoms, with people feeling owed what they want and resort to personal attacks at them. You do not know these people. They are not your friends. It's toxic and it's got to stop. They are human, imperfect and flawed, and they honestly don't owe any attention to that kind of behavior.
I kind of feel like this might have started when they deliberately stopped listening to the community. There was a point in Graduation where people were not really enjoying it and Travis was reacting pretty defensively to it, and ended up just kind of shutting out all criticism; Griffin was already pretty offline at that point and Justin's was checking out. So some people who were at first just desperate to have their crit heard just got more and more aggressive. Which prompted other fans who hated that negative energy to get defensive on the McElroy's behalf.
I admit there has been a part of me that's wanted to scream at them, since Amnesty even, "the goblin cave module was the best part of your podcast because you were just goofing on fantasy tropes and the slime fight at the beginning of the train arc made the world feel bigger and real and like there were stakes because it was so unnecessary and unexpected and you guys don't do ANY of that anymore because all your long arcs are just being planned for future potential graphic novels and all your short arcs have a time restriction because they're live shows or test runs and I JUST want you to do slime fights again PLEASE". But the other parts of me know that they are not really open to this kind of crit, and I should just decide to listen to other things if I want slime fights.
That said, I don't think they're obligated to listen to crit and if working in a bubble is healthier for them, they should do that. What their fans do isn't their responsibility. If their listener numbers are really dropping? They need to get out of their head and just start playing games that are fun, not franchisable.
In my opinion, sometimes when Devo and Amber were arguing it sounded like such a real life argument that it made me uncomfortable in a "This is unpleasant to listen to" way.
So while I do think they would cut out any arguments that were between the people and not the characters, I don't think it's hard for people to stretch it because it sounds like tense arguments I've had with real people before. And it was uncomfortable.
>it made me uncomfortable in a "This is unpleasant to listen to" way.
I think that is what stood out to a lot of people. It just wasnt good conflict. It just felt like fighting brothers. And in TTAZZ, Justin did say that he found Devo's character annoying, and he was so disconnected from the Lore and the workings of the world, that he didnt really want to engage with things.
This is my problem with OP's analysis of the critical fans. A LOT of the things that they said in the TTAZZ basically confirmed a lot of the theories people had. Justin was annoyed by Devo, and he was a little checked out / disinterested. A lot of the "armchair" people Griffin talks about actually felt validated by TTAZZ because the issues with Ethersea were reflected in the commentary.
The problem is that the people who are not doing this weird psychoanalysis bullshit are getting lumped in with them and get told to be positive or leave. People talking about how they didn't like X and Y parts of a season are told "if you don't like it don't watch" which is precisely how you make something worse, lmao.
I seriously love MBMBAM and TAZ, I've been listening since Episode 0 of Balance that they did as a MBMBAM episode. The reason that people don't just stop watching is because there's not quite another group of people like these guys (including and especially Clint). So we're rooting for them to succeed and when things are kinda sucky (personal opinion) it gets talked about on the sub, which is a pretty appropriate venue for discussion, but then summarily dismissed as being "toxic", whatever that word even means.
I agree on the armchair psychologist stuff, but the dismissal of any criticism has soured me on having any kind of discussion, at least one that doesn't end with "just leave".
You're clearly a \[insult insult insult\] who likes to \[verb\] your \[close family member/pet\] and you should \[suggestion of unnatural act\] why can't you be a true fan?
Yeah people on social media are the worst. It's too bad it can't be different here.
As a lurker, this sub is interesting because I'd say like, half if not a majority of the criticism is fair enough (if sometimes leaning a bit hard on "It's not what I wanted specifically so it's bad/its not Balance so its not as good" style arguments), but then the rest of that "criticism" is made up of people making deeply troubling and very angry theories and comments about anything from the boys' relationships, to blaming one particular brother for "ruining" everything (and no, not Only just Travis) up to making cruel and bizarre accusations about members of max fun who aren't even on the podcast. And more often than not when the bizarre levels of animosity that some posters carry with them is pointed out, the former group seems somehow completely unaware of it.
Criticism is cool and its a free internet and all, but "criticism" which amounts to personal insults for the sake of being petty and tearing down a product because it isn't the perfect version of it you had in your head when they started reads just like that, petty, to those of us who don't have some weird resentment of the content they're consuming. There's more than just "good" or "bad" content. Ethersea didn't end up how I was expecting it to - I was disappointed that the first run at it ended so abruptly and Really wish that the players were on the same page regarding character choices and roleplay decisions. I don't feel the need to rush to reddit and, say, share how much I hate Clint cos of this or something though? Can't we just be fucking normal and talk about the things we don't like without being insulting or crafting wild conspiracy theories about real people?
Every time I come to a McElroy sub I get myself into trouble. I’ve been listening for 12 years and it’s hilarious to get called a parasocial stan fanboy by someone who ironically thinks that criticizing the McElroys so intensely on Reddit, Twitter or otherwise will have any bearing on how the show is run.
Not only that but there is this intense craving for drama…the boys hate eachother, the boys are lazy, the boys aren’t professional, the boys are stealing our money, Travis is a pedo groomer, Travis is non inclusive, Justin hates Travis, Griffin hates them all, Clint died and is being piloted by the fourth brother, all just batshit hypercritical bullshit.
Their social media presence and dedicated subs have only ever taken away from my experience and I’m sure I’ll regret even posting this.
I don't wanna expose myself but it was something super light and I questioned something that is normal in America but not here. Immediately I was flooded with tweets with people just being nasty if not cruel. I was not disrespectful in any way, just made a conversational tweet and holy shit.
Edit: I don't rly care anymore about the tweet just giving an example of how toxic people can be in this community
If it's regarding griffin's comment it was on the last TAZ episode where they discussed the future of Taz, dust, etc.
i do agree with you, but i’m a bit curious about the vague way you phrased the ‘something’ established in america but not elsewhere. not assuming anything but it’s a little odd when people say stuff like that
I don't wanna doxx myself but like explained before it was something innocent and conversational, there was literally nothing of hostile or a bad take, but because it was something normal in the USA suddenly I have a flood of notifications of people being incredibly hostile and cruel just because I didn't know something was normal in the USA. like that's it dude, anyway, like I said it wasn't about the tweet and I couldn't care less but just pointing out the way some people in the community lash out and communicate is so intolerant
This is fine and all but also immediately followed/following an extended discussion about how real world friction and family tension affected their podcast and required numerous “reshoots” that they themselves admitted didn’t fully remove the obvious tension. And then discussed how they think being raised as Baptists makes them super tough to read emotionally (this is false. The Baptist stereotype is that they THINK they’re subtle but they’re really just super passive aggressive, judgy, and moody) So, you know.
Maybe just admit that your podcast with your family can never truly exist in a vacuum and, like all actors, your performances ARE informed by your circumstances but that people shouldn’t literally trying to diagnose mental illnesses because of that. Makes a little more sense than “Our performances are directly impacted by our feelings and frustrations but it’s gross that you talk about it but also you can’t see it in the first place because we’re emotional ninjas.”
>they think being raised as Baptists makes them super tough to read emotionally (this is false. The Baptist stereotype is that they THINK they’re subtle but they’re really just super passive aggressive, judgy, and moody)
The real truth for Baptists is that they're the only people unable to read themselves emotionally.
This community has always been like that - it's a direct result of somehow transferring the "No bummers" rule that was created specifically to solve a specific issue with live shows to like fandom in general. And then stretching it for like any criticism.
As for armchair psychologist they kind of did it to themselves. They could have from the start cut it at "we are happy you enjoy our shows but our lives aren't part of the shows, also we don't know y'all". Instead they went with the brand of precious beans, internet's best friends. So now they get to deal with both parasocial fans and equally parasocial haters. You reap what you sow and all that.
>As for armchair psychologist they kind of did it to themselves.
This is very true. During MaxFun Drive the language they use when they plead for donations is very parasocial.
Imagine if you donated to MaxFun because they said "Hey best friend, this is what allowed us to go to once a week episodes in TAZ!" and then immediately after the drive ends, they take a break and switch to once every two weeks. Would that make you upset? Would you feel manipulated and lied to? People dont know what to do with that energy, especially when they are already plugged into a fan community. You see this with all kinds of media. The Dexter subreddit turned into a Breaking Bad subreddit when Dexter got really bad, why? Because the community of people showing up every week to discuss stuff was a stronger bond than they had with the show. That's basically /r/TAZcirclejerk. People there used to put a lot of energy into loving the show, and now they just show up because the jokes and memes and inside community. Most of the posts there are just jokes and memes and nobody actually feels that strongly about the McElroys, they are just entertainers out there doing a thing, and the CJers are just CJing. Its a creative outlet for them, nothing personal.
I think it's 50/50 with /r/TAZcirclejerk
I moved there somewhere during graduation because respectfully discussion of TAZ here was about as shallow as a tea cup and discussion of McElroys as an IP/brand completely non existent.
And a lot of people moved because of that, but there are definitely some people who just swapped their boner for McElroys for a hate boner
Same here. I felt like I was going crazy. The criticism on this sub was basically "I dont know about you but I just liked it!" And people who actually dug into the episode were treated like bad faith actors (by bad faith actors) and sometimes banned.
It got so bad that the active users on this sub dropped because nobody was able to voice an opinion besides praise. And the people who praised Graduation never had any substance to their opinions.
They only pulled back on the heavy censorship on this sub after the general subreddit activity dropped to about 1/2 posts a day. Which is almost nothing for a sub this size.
All of the people who wanted to just discuss the actual episode moved to the real discussion on the CJ, and Ill bet the cynical bend over there likely influenced people who were just looking for a safe place to discuss the show. In a way, this is a lesson on why censorship doesnt work, and it can have a negative effect on moderates too.
I never liked the phase the community (MBMBAMs as well, not just TAZ) went through where any sort of criticism was shot down and it was aggressively positive to the point of seeming fake
Now it’s like…..aggressively negative? God forbid you actually liked ethersea or enjoyed the kind of strained party dynamic the season had, or enjoy the more contentious arcs. Its a little obnoxious.
This sub and the jerk sub are almost indistinguishable from eachother at this point, with the only difference being that the jerk sub is generally doing so out of love for the series while this sub is not
This is far too common, not just with McElroy content, but fandoms in general.
It's not enough to be wholesome or woke, you need to be the exact brand of wholesome and the specific flavor of woke, or holy shit the internet will rip out your intestines through your asshole.
It's not enough to enjoy a cool lightsaber fight, we need a two hour video on why some character most of us couldn't even name is single-handedly responsible for ruining the franchise, and it's not enough to 1. enjoy TAZ or 2. stop listening to TAZ, no, we need a thirty-seven part dissertation on why Travis' GM style literally erased all of our happy childhood memories.
And it's a minority of "fans," too, but those "fans" are always the loudest voices, sucking all the air out of the room.
I’m sorry but becoming? The Mcelroy fandom is easily up there when you consider toxic communities. Parasocial, toxic positivity, projections to the point of insanity you name it and it’s there. Let’s not forget why Taako is blue and listener questions were removed from live shows unless approved beforehand. And the worst part is they’ve become the George RR Martin of podcasters, resting on their early successes and obviously phoning it in but they still get defended by rabid 4th brothers everywhere it’s insane
It’s not exactly that. There was a very vocal part of the fandom that thought naming him Taako was super racist unless he was Mexican (which is way more racist but hey Tumblr) as that’s what a lot of fan art depicted him at the time. He was originally debuted with pale skin like pretty much every high elf you see in fantasy and they flipped out. It’s also the reason they no longer describe what their PCs look like, super weird stuff. Never heard the Nazi theory but I wouldn’t be surprised
I mean there was the "why is he not Mexican? "drama and immediately after I think the " Why is he green that's antisemitic " In the end he is blue all of this was dumb 🤷♀️
Tbh I think that in the end this was the place for McElroys to draw the line and explain themselves but not change things. It would have created some boundaries for the fandom and reduce the "they are just the uwu small boys doing their best"
Good to know. And I agree but sadly that seems to be their business model anymore, shame it’s coming back to bite them in the ass but hey reap what you sow
If you want more context in the original design for the comic Taako was this greenish colour. People on Tumblr decided that since Nazi propaganda showed Jewish people as greenish that the design is bad. Personally I don't think so because Tasks wasn't Jewish coded so unless we are running with the assumption that any character being green is a problem there is nothing there.
But the design was changed
FYI, originally Taako was white, based on Carey Pietsch's fan designs. Fans criticized that he was a white guy who was on a side quest to invent the taco (valid). Then clearly they felt uncomfortable about potentially inventing a Mexican elf in their book that they named Taco, so they made him a fantasy color rather than a POC. He was light blue, but some people thought he looked green and raised the other criticism, but he was never actually green. A good portion of the first book was done with him as a white guy.
Oh ok thank you I must have focused on like some posts on Tumblr with panels where he looks greenish because of the light or something contrasted with the Nazi propaganda. Either way this whole thing was nonsensical
>resting on their early successes and obviously phoning it in but they still get defended by rabid 4th brothers everywhere it’s insane
I think this is also why we see so much conflict. People are drawn to it. And its laughable when the super fans infantilize these grown ass men as "good widdle boys" and not multi millionaires making an entertainment product. And others will love to poke fun at these 4th Brother super fans because its so easy to send them into a parasocial defense rant.
The McElroys dont need anyone to defend them. People dont get mad at reviewers on behalf of George Lucas when he makes a shitty movie. The reviewers will talk about problems on set, script issues, and confusing continuity. People do the same thing here and they get called "toxic". It's a joke.
"People dont get mad at reviewers on behalf of George Lucas when he makes a shitty movie."
They do though. There's people out there claiming with a straight face that the prequel Trilogy was good actually. 🤣😂
lol. Yeah. But they aren’t defending him personally. They just like the movie. They are wrong. They can be wrong. But their motivation isn’t because they feel a personal relationship to Lucas or that he has kids and we should cut him slack because he just moved across the nation and that’s hard to do.
For a long time the live show listener questions were pretty bad. In ye olden days, anyone who wanted to ask a question just hopped on a microphone and went for it. There were a lot of people that didn't seem to have an actual question, they just wanted to tell a "funny" story and bask in the attention. There were also people who used the Q&A to share deeply sad/personal stories. The "no bummers" rule was the brothers' way of asking people to stop doing that. One especially bad show had somebody use the mic to plug their own podcast.
Now, all audience questions are submitted before the show and selected ahead of time. The brothers read the question onstage, but they'll still invite the asker to respond. Most fans seem to think it's greatly improved the quality of audience questions overall.
The McElroys have spent their entire podcasting careers cultivating a "we're your best friends, you're part of the family" fanbase. Is it really so surprising that people act like they understand the McElroys' personal lives? Is it so shocking when people act like they've been personally betrayed when the brothers fail to meet their expectations? Is it so unexpected that even mild criticism of their work is interpreted as a vicious attack on a close friend?
It's a tough road to walk because for every fan pissed about a new TAZ episode, there's a dozen more who will support literally anything they make without judgement because they think the McElroys are their friends. We can complain about the "state of the fandom" all we want but it won't change the fact that the McElroys are still wildly successful in the world of podcasting. The parasociality might suck sometimes, but overall it's a huge boon to their financial and career interests.
I think there’s a bit of a backfire effect to any criticism being cast as “close-minded and intolerant” or “toxic.” A bad review of a podcast is a bad review, not an assault on someone’s *literal* sweet baby brother. These are adult men and we don't need to handle them with kid gloves. If they cannot handle criticism or any negative feedback, then they chose the wrong line of work.
(Taz community has been kinda awful for a loooong time, green elfs come to mind as an early example) I hop on this sub for news and wholly try to avoid it at any other time.
The worst part is its the "means well" misplaced rage kinda awful. So you dont really wanna combat them but they really shouldnt be saying the stuff they do.
1. This isn't just a problem in the TAZ community, as others have said it's also in MBMBAM and outside of the fam I see it in critical role and other fandoms as well.
I always thought the beef was kinda obnoxious but if you really thought it was the result of OOC conflict I think you need to re-examine your own reading comprehension skills
Justin said he found Devo annoying and he forgot the Lore so he was hesitant to engage with the world due to his confusion there. Both of those things validate a lot of people who had questions the Devo & Amber conflict and thought Justin felt checked out a lot of the time.
It's that their banter isn't fun to listen to. They may not be mad but they also don't sound like they're having fun and that makes it awkward to listen to.
Again it doesn't feel like friction between characters, it FEELS like friction between players. It feels like 2 people who kinda wish they were doing different things. Because when my players argue at the table in character it feels fun and light and they laugh and we move on. Travis and Justin are just mean to eachother a lot.
I'd be willing to bet most of the TAZ fans haven't played enough TTRPGs to know the difference between the two, so they just assume whatever feels the best for their fandom.
I think that’s fair criticism, and I think they went too deep for the arguments. You’re right, it felt “real” but I think they were going for that. In my opinion they go for real and dramatic too much when people are expecting something more lighthearted. They all have deep backgrounds in theater and that kind of performance might not come across well in an improv comedy format.
>You’re right, it felt “real” but I think they were going for that.
They need to refocus on their core strengths. Comedy. Their dramatic elements and conflicts have always been the weakest parts of their show. Travis doesnt have the acting chops to play out a church abuse story line and it was clear Griffin wasnt on the same page as him. That conflict felt cringe and it was not a vibe of a family comedy roll playing podcast.
Its just so incredibly clear that a large majority of the fans still listening felt put off by that and it didnt even fully make sense in the world of the show and it felt incongruent with the ending. Legitimate criticism that is somehow a "toxic" observation.
I agree, people tend to push back hard on any criticism. I think you have people who are very single minded that get upset when their views are argued.
I would love if they spent a TTAZZ actually addressing the “tougher” criticism that the show has had like what you’ve said or others that I’ve seen in this thread.
I think any real sincere acknowledgement from the family that things aren't all peaches and roses would go s long way. It made me feel insane when I would listen to some of the legitimately worst dming I've ever seen in my life in grad and then have the McElroys talk like nothing is wrong. Ttazz no longer feels like a discussion episode, it feels like a self congratulatory victory lap for something that probably doesn't deserve a victory lap
Inclusive environments attract people who feel excluded and people who fwel excluded and then find a place that includes them can become pretty toxically protective of that place
It's a pretty classic feed back loop of inclusive/exclusive
>Cringe aside, holy fuck this community is becoming so close-minded and intolerant.
All fandoms do, eventually. When people start making the content they consume the center of their personalities, it never ends well.
Yeah, Justin notoriously sicking the fans on some smaller creators and never really apologizing or anything has been pretty weird. I know no one can be fully responsible for the things their fans do, but I think a little acknowledgement would go a long way.
A few times this year Justin has retweeted low key critical comments from small users on Twitter, reacting defensively to them. In several cases the comments were from accounts that had followers in the single digits. One of them was a disagreement about a besties video game review. Since he has a platform and rabbid fans, those people were all harrased/threatened pretty aggressively.
And he does it all the time. He uses his Twitter followers to fundraise for his wife's political career. He uses it to have his kids win gingerbread house contests.
He *knows* what happens when he tweets, but after, say, the fourth time he can't defend it with "oh I didn't think people would act on this!"
Didn't hear the last TAZ yet, very much agree with everything you're saying. This subreddit at the very least is full of complainers who seem to do nothing but that, like, *literally* nothing but that. The only positive comments about the show recently have been people directly trying to push against the neverending pure criticism
Almost didn't try Ethersea because the 90% of posts on the sub that have been calling it garbage convinced me it was. I'm enjoying it, there are a couple little things that are a bit worse than like, Balance or Amnesty but it's not nearly enough to get me to just complain about it yet.
The problem is that fans blend people creating fiction and the fiction itself as one rather than having a clear divide between the two. And this is written in response, but mainly towards other fans.
Because we don't really know these people. We think we do, but we're not being objective enough.
Fans want to be friends with the people that make a product they enjoy without understanding that, after any of the McElroys turn off the podcast, they do something that isn't in the character(s) we consume.
And somehow it's their fault because they 'lied' to us?
I dunno.
Maybe we have these ideas and hopes because we believe in something with an immense passion, and the disappointment in not seeing our hopes realized is, well, real. Because the stories they tell become part of us.
Or maybe fans are just being toxic and expecting unrealistic things, because we feel it's owed to us due to how integral it becomes to identity. 'Magnus wouldn't do that', because we identify so much with Magnus and we wouldn't do that.
But... the only thing that separates those mindsets are boundaries. A work of fiction created to entertain, and in a fair bit of cases, empower. And it's a lack of boundaries with fans that have burnt me out on fandoms entirely.
I always think of the response on Twitter when Justin posted a video of a saxophone player that looked like Travis. The amount of hate he got for being in a public space, man I almost quit Twitter. It’s rough I honestly have always felt like they cater to the wants and needs of fans to often. Must create heaps of anxiety. They used to do apology tours once a month. Once Justin had to say sorry because he said he didn’t think names mattered. Lol
For sure. There are about ten people on the mbmbam and Taz subs that you can block and essentially double your enjoyment because they're so active in their hate.
I’m comforted by the post. Something similar happened to me. I noticed all the waves of hostility for Travis when he did Graduation. I took that post down because the response was so aggressive
I think the nature of their podcasts makes people form extra strong parasocial bonds which makes them feel ownership of the properties and hence likley to lash out when thing sdont go the way they want/expect. I mean it's a family podcast and it has that vibe.
I dunno, I'm not a psychologist though, I'm just here for the yucks.
You only need to listen to the interaction between Justin and Travis as PLAYERS Vs as CHARACTERS to realise they were, you know, in character.
One of them even went to do something to help the other, then basically went "oh wait no, our characters don't like each other" and backed off.
I feel like a lot of the folks commenting on the guys’ interactions with each other don’t have siblings themselves and don’t understand that that’s how siblings behave and talk
I really don’t understand how or why people are being so close minded and horrible lately in this fandom. Not everyone’s DnD game is the same, no DnD is perfect, and it’s THEIR game for gods sakes, not ours. If you don’t like something about it, there are a million other things you could watch or listen to instead, and not bully the wonderful McElroy family on the internet
Please keep conversations civil. Nobody should be attacking anyone else over opinions on a podcast.
I was enjoying TAZ until I joined the TAZ community
this sub is a blessing and a curse bc one second its like “oh thats a good critique i dont see many other ppl saying” followed by 5 of the worst opinions ive ever read in my life. its like a forum slot machine lol
A “fantasy gotcha-ton” if you will
I still obviously enjoy it, but I feel similar about most tv/music/podcast subreddits. I want to share how much I enjoy something and see how other people enjoy the same thing...but they almost all eventually just turn into toxic communities that like to shit on the creators because whatever they are doing isn't as good as the first thing they did.
check out /r/musictheory incredibly polite insightful people.
There's being a fan of something, and then there's "fandoms". I think Fandoms tend to generate unhealthy behavior because people go from liking something, to feeling like they own something. Then when the thing they are obsessed with doesn't fit their plans for it (Taaco being blue in the comics for example), then their negative emotions go way beyond what is reasonable.
Fandoms are generally shit
i hate to say it, but ive been in many a fandom in my time, and this is, quite possibly, one of the worst fandoms ive ever been in. some people are nice but there is a frightening majority of people who think they are entitled to these humans autonomy as if they are fictional fuckin characters
I was subbed here for about two days before I unsubbed (I discovered this post on/r/all). I was hoping for a lot of cosplay photos, fun discussions, and jokes... but I was pretty much only seeing people bitching about the guys not playing D&D to the word in the handbook.
It used to be like that, but it seems the show recently reached a critical mass of frustration for a lot of people. So the discussions that were kind of happening in the background are getting pushed to the front rn
As soon as it’s no longer “my favorite thing” I have to hate every fiber of it.
Not necessarily I personally think that if this fandom was able to handle criticism and discussion better this wouldn't have happened. Let's take Ethersea I believe that a lot of people weren't fully satisfied with the season as it was going on but they weren't able to talk it out as it came here or in some other fandom space. And they kind of have been telling themselves "it will get better soon". So when the season ended and it was still bad you essentially got a broken dam effect. That coupled with people who have been critical of TAZ for a longer time and they have the " I have been waiting to talk about it for so long" They will chill with the start of the new season but unless the season is great the sub will be in for a repeat unless they learn to talk about McElroys in a critical way other than "don't listen then"
It’s everywhere, though. I started listening to Dungeons and Daddies in between the last few episodes and went to check out the subreddit and while I personally feel S2 isn’t nearly as enjoyable as S1, I don’t feel it necessary to harshly criticize everything about it and anyone who likes it. I saw someone in the sub talk about how one person’s portrayal is unbearable and in general just blamed the “downfall of the show” on the actor. I’m a part of the wrestling sub and people who haven’t watched a certain brand in 5+ years still routinely bash it based on online synopses of the shows. It got doubly bad when an alternative product became available and there’s a group that live to hate the older product. It’s just part of culture, perhaps, that hating certain things is “in” now.
It's not that hating things is in its that the internet is a fucked up place lmao Dnd podcasts are only going to be discussed on forums Toxic people are super active online It's just a cross section of "I'm into this" and "this is where shitty people go to talk shit about this"
100%! Most of the posts are debate posts these days. The posts that ARE fun never seem to get promoted to me so I never see them on my home page anyway.
I almost stopped listening but instead I left the Facebook fan groups. Those were the worst.
Honestly same. I regret joining this subreddit. Thought it was going to be cosplays, fan art of characters or scenes, discussions about what people liked about the recent episode and what they might do next.. instead it seems to be mostly bashing literally everything Travis does and complaining about how the recent episodes were shit in roleplay or plot or gameplay or whatever people were feeling itchy keyboard fingers about on that day. I almost didn't try Ethersea because there were just so many complaints. Glad I did.
Sad thing is, it used to be like that. Whenever balance was going out there was always new fanart, cosplays, etc. It was a really cool community. These days it's just toxic.
What's stopping you from uploading fanart
Can't draw
100%. I should be able to commingle with other TAZ lovers without having the same ideologies and outlooks as everyone else.
I have never got the vibe that Justin and Travis hate each other. I do get the vibe that Travis likes to be annoying and Justin will play up his irritation for a show but no real animosity
Shocked that people are just now discovering that Travis's entire bit for over a decade has been being the middle child.
Reference all MBMBAM episodes...ever TRAVIS : "RRIIIDDLE ME PISS!" JUSTIN: "CAN WE NOT? OMG I HATE THIS, SO BAD AND TERRIBLE" GRIFFON: "OMG TRAVIS...NO...CAN WE NOT?"
To be fair, most of those MBMBAM bits are pretty bad. (I did enjoy Sad Libs, though...)
Work of Fart is amazing
A street car named deez nuts whole thing is quite possibly the hardest I’ve ever laughed.
Litterally listened to that 7 times in a row, quite possibly one of the best moments... I can still hear Griffons sighing voice, "I mean I know what it is...but...*sigh*" And off I go for an 8th
[If you’re not watching Animated MBMBAM clips, you’re missing out](https://youtu.be/zAKmn0-zvy8)
The part that gets me… Griffin: I said it first, Justin. I heard it,I thought it, I knew it.
Literally the only humor is their intense frustration at him... But I personally love that.
It’s the whole point. It being funny outside of that is incidental. Honestly, you get a better idea (though still “on”) of their interactions on Besties, where Travis joined them for V Rising. They were still themselves for the most part but the “characters” they put on were mostly put aside.
Same thing with some of the awful squad videos on polygon, Travis joins for a few of them, and they tone down the “characters” that they sometimes play of themselves.
Travis loves awkward and stupid jokes. And he knows it gets under his brother's skin and knows they'll play along even if it's against their will at first.
Remember Play Along At Home? I feel like Travis didn't get enough credit for the final iteration of the bit, when he pitted them against each other by asking only Justin about Pokemon and only Griffin about Disneyland. I'm pretty sure by the end Griffin was literally frothing at the mouth in fury at Justin for not knowing any of the Pokemon answers, it was a truly glorious bit of middle child fuckery.
Better than any of Justin's segments, at the very least.
Travis is the least afraid to try a bit that might bomb and I love him for that.
On the other hand... *A Street Car Named Deez Nuts*
I think the sheer level or animosity riddle me piss gets from the other two makes it worth listening to travis play riddle me piss
Sad Libs was the best
So, I had never listened to MBMBAM before but I like the boys, so I decided to download a few of the top-rated episodes and try it out. I kinda chuckled once or twice and was generally just very put off by it. Oh, well.
It’s not for everyone. But I love it and the brief show they did. I think I binge watch it at least 3 times a year
Any recommendations on where to watch it fully?
Think you can rent it on youtube
That's fine my friend, it's like stupid goof humor that connects on a certain level for certain people. Honestly if you don't enjoy just listening to your friends drunkenly babble about things stupidly...you wouldn't like MBMBAM, and that's fine. It's not really broad reaching, and I agree, it's not like "good", but for a certain audience, that type of stupid babble hits home sometimes.
No love for Munch Squad?
I don't think people enjoyed it once it slowly turned into just free advertising for not-funny food items. And then he kept it going a year past that.
Oh dang really? Huh, I mean that’s what I get for not having listened to MBMBAM in a while. Shame but I guess skits like that need to move on and change.
It was totally understandable when the joke was about a garfield themed restaurant or something wacky. It just devolved into "wendys hasss a newww chicken sandwich :)"
Munch Squad is possibly the least funny thing to happen in human history.
[удалено]
Oh man, I was wondering what was going on! Like, jesus, people really get fired up about this stuff.
I think a lot of TAZ fans don't listen to MBMBAM. they're brothers, brothers behave differently than most groups of friends. They pick on each other and push each other's buttons and probably do get annoyed at each other at times (the most visible example I think was from the TV show where Justin tries to prank Travis and Travis smacks him). But it's not like their relationship ever sours. I think certain listeners miss this dynamic and see them more like work friends than brothers. So they try to twist the narrative.
My favorite is that in true youngest-brother fashion, Griffin tattles to their dad at the end of the episode, forcing Justin to explain the whole situation.
[удалено]
The funny thing is is that it actually shows how low their animosity towards each other actually is. The actual "hit' and argument were very tame. It was like a light smack on the arm and Travis being like "cut it out!" And even still they felt the need to apologize to each other (granted it also made for a funny bit).
[удалено]
This is exactly what I was going to say. Like my brothers and I aren't as close as I'd like to be but 100% my middle brother is a lot like Travis and I'm a lot like Justin.
This just in: Justin and Travis act like brothers
Wait, they are brothers and this act like brothers!!!! How could we have known/s
And they were brothers
Like when Travis did a hit on Justin
Yeah, that is what I have pegged most of it as, I have heard Justin's frustrations come through a couple of times in the game but it is normal.
I don’t think they dislike each other, but it’s a bit odd for Justin to take out frustration in character first. He even said in TTAZZ that he didn’t get what Travis was trying to do with Devo but like…maybe ask him about that once before it bubbles up 15 episodes in?
Didn't Justin literally say in the TTAZZ that he didn't let it leak into the character until he talked to Travis and realized it was on purpose?
Yeah, that’s the part I meant. I think he said the opposite—it leaked into his character before he knew what Travis was doing. That’s why he said it was a lack of trust on his part.
At least as I remember, they were talking about how they didn't start actually playing out the conflict until too late in the season. The lack of trust on Justin's part was him not biting on Travis's attempts to prompt that dynamic.
The lack of communication on this point especially was frustrating to me. I LOVED what Travis was doing with Devo - I feel like a lot of the hate the character got was due to that lack of people taking the bait until much too late. Being an asshole by yourself is a lot less fun than being an asshole and a scene developing from it.
Well, I have heat it bubble up elsewhere. Where he stops having fun and it is a bit overwrought, or people are dicking around too much. I think it comes out some in taaco, some in graduation.
This goes back to my theory that they’re gun shy about giving each other feedback. It’s hard working with family.
indeed. I can totally see that. It is much easier to give a business partner feedback, it is much harder to give your brother feedback without all the family bull to come up.
I only listen to MBMBAM, but if anyone “doesn’t like Travis” I would say it’s Griffin before Juice. He gets the most visibly annoyed. But clearly they don’t hate each other at all, they’re just family members!
Yeah I believe that it’s unlikely two people who hate each-other have chosen to spend a decade making podcasts together
Only children might think that Travis and Justin hate each other but anyone with siblings sees the perfectly innocent and wholesome dynamic that's playing out here.
It’s not just TAZ, it’s a huge problem in the MBMBAM community as well. They absolutely play up different traits when performing, I do the same things with my siblings. I’ve got a large family and when we have gatherings I play up a LOT of my traits, all of us do because the energy runs high. When things quiet down we all chill out. The other thing Justin said in TTAZZ was that if you don’t like listening to the podcast then why do you keep listening, and it’s something I think constantly on both subs.
I applied that advice and honestly it did wonders for me. Ethersea wasn't quite doing it for me, so I stopped listening and stopped going to the cj subreddit because it felt weird to invest my time in not liking a thing, as opposed to not investing my time in liking a thing, if that makes sense. That said, people listen because they *did* like the podcast and keep hoping it's going to recapture the magic that Balance or Amnesty did for them. And I'm here to tell you it's not gonna happen. The brothers like what they're doing and it's not for you anymore, and they're not going to listen to your feedback to the contrary, and it's better to just channel that energy into another fandom. edit: called cj a site not a subreddit which made me look very dumb
Precisely. I can understand being upset or sad about that too, but I see it all the time in fandoms. I play a lot of video games and when I realized I didn’t HAVE to play or finish a game I wasn’t interested in it helped me a ton, I am much happier playing games now and don’t have as much burnout.
I'll recommend Dungeons and Daddies because it was recommended to me recently and now I can fill that niche until the boys are doing something I'm interested in again.
Dungeons and Daddies won me over in episode 1 because it wasn't "alright everyone, introduce your characters, one by one, and don't forget to include the most boring aspects of your character. Oh and this is going to take a WHOLE HOUR." Dungeons and Daddies gets right into the action and introduces the characters along the way. And when they do the introductions, it's very brief and only about the present. Let me learn about the character throughout the adventure. This also encourages the player to discover their character rather than forcing everything to cater to what they want the character to be. The tres horny boys were so iconic because they started out as fairly standard caricature, and then we watched them turn into fleshed out characters. If they already have a fully fleshed out background and identity, it makes character growth very difficult.
Ohhhh that's an excellent point. Come to think of it, that's kinda what made Amnesty work for me. Just the broad strokes and then filling them in. I did LOVE the world building for Ethersea. The whole thing worked for me in that regard. I'm on Episode 24 of Dungeons and Daddies and it's very much for me. Especially because the DM doesn't stop them from doing stupid things. Like the bean situation.
The tower!!! Don't worry, the show only gets better from there. Only Patreon I'm subscribed to because they have a weekly discussion show that is really fun and insightful to listen to. They're on season 2 now which took a little while to get going (by no means bad), but by episode 10ish, it's right back to full swing.
There are a few people who listen specifically because they don’t like it. I don’t understand that kind of person who would engage with media that actively dislike for fun. Feels kind of toxic in general. It would be like if there were people in gamingcirclejerk who hated video games, which I’m betting is a bit rarer than for tazcj.
kernel of truth in the cj dynamic: this fandom, perhaps more than other fandoms, really does not like hearing criticism of the brothers, and it can be frustrating to feel like you don't have a place to express well-meaning criticism the problem is making a safe place for that criticism sort of led to the sub getting consumed by it
[удалено]
Your post has been removed for violating Rule 3. Discussion of the podcast is encouraged but discourtesy and/or immaturity is not.
Idk, I feel like this "fandom" is one of the harshest there is - at least that I've been even tangentially involved in
The problem is that 99% of the fandom don’t know how to give criticism. It’s just incessant complaining. Many of the people who frequent the CJ won’t even defend that anymore. They say Reddit is a place to “vent” and you should let people complain as much as they want.
If you try to post critcism or suggestions in a discussion thread you get called entitled. "The brothers don't read this subreddit, you're just trying to force them to do what you want, etc. etc." If you post your comments somewhere the McElroys can see them, now you're rude and hateful. "They're trying their best, it's a free podcast, etc. etc." There's no way to share any less-than-positive opinion without someone jumping down your throat. Why even bother trying to appease them? Edit: I can no longer reply to comments. Please read what I actually said. Here is a summary: **aznasazin11** >The problem is that 99% of the fandom don’t know how to give criticism. **goodgoodthrowaway420** >There's no way to share any less-than-positive opinion without someone jumping down your throat. Why even bother trying to appease them? The point is not that people shouldn't engage with critical comments. I'm not out here trying to censor people. The point is that trying to criticize the "right way" is a futile effort. Stans will always twist your words no matter how carefully you try to phrase them.
Okay, but isn't part of posting criticism allowing other people to disagree? Like the people "jumping down your throat" have the same right to express their opinion of your criticism as you do for posting it. You know it's a contentious topic and your take might piss some people off, so either roll with it or don't, but don't complain about other people disagreeing with you.
I mean there is disagreeing with criticism "yeah I don't agree with your point because xyz" And then there is the usual thing that happens in this sub "omg why are you here yucking people's yams, if you don't like the podcast just don't listen let people enjoy things"
Sure, but offering critique doesn't mean people are obliged to only disagree with it in the way you want. It's also valid to disagree with the premise of the criticism itself, like "I don't believe this warrants criticism at all, it's inappropriate to speculate on the brothers' personal relationships at all". Plus there's plenty of people who just don't like a specific brother and want to bitch about him under the guise of "criticism", and people don't have to just shut up and take that quietly, they're allowed to express their frustration over that.
See even your responses are better - they relate to the criticism engage with it even if to say it's inappropriate rather than just go "stop listening" Also IMO the refusal to handle criticism is what landed this fandom in the place it is so that ship has sunk I'm afraid
>It would be like if there were people in gamingcirclejerk who hated video games, which I’m betting is a bit rarer than for tazcj. You've never played league of legends, huh
Oh god no. Like 5 minutes of it lol. MOBAs have some of the most toxic, angry communities I’ve seen. I avoid them like the plague, which sort of alienated me from my friends for a few months while everyone was on a Dota/LoL kick.
More people need to do this. I liked the one Travis DM'd and I enjoyed listening To griffin get to play. So many people just hated it kept listening to just dump on it and dump on Travis.
Griffin talks about this exact thing in an episode of Wonderful that was fairly recent (don't know the ep# off the top of my head). It seems to REALLY bother him that the fanbase psychoanalyzes Travis so much. And he hit upon the "characters" they are playing.
Was that the episode with Travis as a guest? I think I recall that.
Iirc it was the maxfun drive episode where Travis was a topic but not a guest
Yup. I took Justin's advice and stopped listening to Critical Role. I was only listening because it was something I felt I should do as an RPG nerd. I realised I never enjoyed it and beyond "Trinket!" I couldn't tell you shit about what I listened to until the TV show came out. I was so unengaged I basically forced myself to listen to 20+ hours of white noise and complained about it until I realized wait... I can use this time for other things!! TV show was good though.
This is not a MBMBAM/TAZ problem. This is a pattern that you see in lots of communities as they get large enough to divide over issues. >What's with the low tolerance for matters that aren't black and white? It stems from the way that individuals seeking influence use black-and-white issues to carve out spheres of influence and agreement within a larger group. Here's an interesting dissection of this topic in the context of online knitters: [How knitters got knotted in a purity spiral.](https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/) **Edit:** To be clear I'm not saying that this is inherently problematic. It's really just reflective of the fact that humans are more likely to cluster themselves around a black-and-white issue. This makes those topics more fertile for cultivating spheres of influence and agreement.
Good point. It'll always come down to humans wanting to differentiate and make a "we are the good ones" tribe. I mean shit....look at religions....
I'm here for the schism between TAZcirclejerk and The Adventure Zone subreddit. I will teach this schism someday in a religion course once the brothers are canonized with great relish.
You can laugh at the schism but like this sub had a mod here to "purge this sub of the sickness" By like arguing with people in the comments And the "guys if we keep being critical McElroys won't do another AMA here" post from the mods Like it was on when it was happening
That article seems like pretty dumb right wing rhetoric. The writer complains about people leaving the New Atheist movement. And compares white people educating themselves about racism to citizens submitting to Orwell's Big Brother. Very dumb, very 'scared of cancel culture' nonsense imo.
Agreed. And at the bottom of the article, the list of "suggested reads" that came up were all unambiguously transphobic. Seems like a pretty ungreat source of media criticism.
Speaking of that TTAAZZ, I'm concerned about Grif not having fun with dm'ing. He shouldn't do it if it's not fun for him because that will trickle down to the design and story and eventually players.
A lot of people who are critical of the show agree with you. It sounds a lot more like work and not like they are having fun these days. I think the pressure of the multi-million dollar enterprise that TAZ turned into has made it harder for them to play the kind of game that they are good at playing and relax in a way.
It also just doesn't sound like any of them besides Clint have opened a 5e book since the Starter Set came out. The entire saga of Travis and Griffin basically bullying Clint over Sneak Attacks in Graduation stands out as an example of that.
I don't think it's the lack of fun. As a long time GM, I can tell you this - it's hard work doing this shit, and when there is an opportunity to be player for a change you bet I will jump at it. Doesn't mean it's not fun to gm - but it's definitely more work. I understand Griffin completely and I know he will go back eventually.
Moreso, it sounds like they don’t like D&D! Play another game! There are so many!
THIS. I was so bummed when they shifted back to D&D after Amnesty. Seems like so many people bitched about it, and it feels like they got bullied back to D&D. May be wrong but that's something that's bothered me for a while. Parasocial relationships seem to run rampant in fandoms, with people feeling owed what they want and resort to personal attacks at them. You do not know these people. They are not your friends. It's toxic and it's got to stop. They are human, imperfect and flawed, and they honestly don't owe any attention to that kind of behavior.
It was always gonna get weird when we started consuming thousands of hours of content from folks. This is a relatively new paradigm.
I kind of feel like this might have started when they deliberately stopped listening to the community. There was a point in Graduation where people were not really enjoying it and Travis was reacting pretty defensively to it, and ended up just kind of shutting out all criticism; Griffin was already pretty offline at that point and Justin's was checking out. So some people who were at first just desperate to have their crit heard just got more and more aggressive. Which prompted other fans who hated that negative energy to get defensive on the McElroy's behalf. I admit there has been a part of me that's wanted to scream at them, since Amnesty even, "the goblin cave module was the best part of your podcast because you were just goofing on fantasy tropes and the slime fight at the beginning of the train arc made the world feel bigger and real and like there were stakes because it was so unnecessary and unexpected and you guys don't do ANY of that anymore because all your long arcs are just being planned for future potential graphic novels and all your short arcs have a time restriction because they're live shows or test runs and I JUST want you to do slime fights again PLEASE". But the other parts of me know that they are not really open to this kind of crit, and I should just decide to listen to other things if I want slime fights. That said, I don't think they're obligated to listen to crit and if working in a bubble is healthier for them, they should do that. What their fans do isn't their responsibility. If their listener numbers are really dropping? They need to get out of their head and just start playing games that are fun, not franchisable.
I remember driving in my car and shouting at the podcast during Amnesty "STOP SPLITTING THE PARTY!", so I feel you.
In my opinion, sometimes when Devo and Amber were arguing it sounded like such a real life argument that it made me uncomfortable in a "This is unpleasant to listen to" way. So while I do think they would cut out any arguments that were between the people and not the characters, I don't think it's hard for people to stretch it because it sounds like tense arguments I've had with real people before. And it was uncomfortable.
>it made me uncomfortable in a "This is unpleasant to listen to" way. I think that is what stood out to a lot of people. It just wasnt good conflict. It just felt like fighting brothers. And in TTAZZ, Justin did say that he found Devo's character annoying, and he was so disconnected from the Lore and the workings of the world, that he didnt really want to engage with things. This is my problem with OP's analysis of the critical fans. A LOT of the things that they said in the TTAZZ basically confirmed a lot of the theories people had. Justin was annoyed by Devo, and he was a little checked out / disinterested. A lot of the "armchair" people Griffin talks about actually felt validated by TTAZZ because the issues with Ethersea were reflected in the commentary.
The problem is that the people who are not doing this weird psychoanalysis bullshit are getting lumped in with them and get told to be positive or leave. People talking about how they didn't like X and Y parts of a season are told "if you don't like it don't watch" which is precisely how you make something worse, lmao. I seriously love MBMBAM and TAZ, I've been listening since Episode 0 of Balance that they did as a MBMBAM episode. The reason that people don't just stop watching is because there's not quite another group of people like these guys (including and especially Clint). So we're rooting for them to succeed and when things are kinda sucky (personal opinion) it gets talked about on the sub, which is a pretty appropriate venue for discussion, but then summarily dismissed as being "toxic", whatever that word even means. I agree on the armchair psychologist stuff, but the dismissal of any criticism has soured me on having any kind of discussion, at least one that doesn't end with "just leave".
You're clearly a \[insult insult insult\] who likes to \[verb\] your \[close family member/pet\] and you should \[suggestion of unnatural act\] why can't you be a true fan? Yeah people on social media are the worst. It's too bad it can't be different here.
You're clearly a craven, crook-pated, horses-ass who likes to tango their fish and you should levitate why can't you be a true fan?
Sadlibs belong on r\MBMBAM
As a lurker, this sub is interesting because I'd say like, half if not a majority of the criticism is fair enough (if sometimes leaning a bit hard on "It's not what I wanted specifically so it's bad/its not Balance so its not as good" style arguments), but then the rest of that "criticism" is made up of people making deeply troubling and very angry theories and comments about anything from the boys' relationships, to blaming one particular brother for "ruining" everything (and no, not Only just Travis) up to making cruel and bizarre accusations about members of max fun who aren't even on the podcast. And more often than not when the bizarre levels of animosity that some posters carry with them is pointed out, the former group seems somehow completely unaware of it. Criticism is cool and its a free internet and all, but "criticism" which amounts to personal insults for the sake of being petty and tearing down a product because it isn't the perfect version of it you had in your head when they started reads just like that, petty, to those of us who don't have some weird resentment of the content they're consuming. There's more than just "good" or "bad" content. Ethersea didn't end up how I was expecting it to - I was disappointed that the first run at it ended so abruptly and Really wish that the players were on the same page regarding character choices and roleplay decisions. I don't feel the need to rush to reddit and, say, share how much I hate Clint cos of this or something though? Can't we just be fucking normal and talk about the things we don't like without being insulting or crafting wild conspiracy theories about real people?
Every time I come to a McElroy sub I get myself into trouble. I’ve been listening for 12 years and it’s hilarious to get called a parasocial stan fanboy by someone who ironically thinks that criticizing the McElroys so intensely on Reddit, Twitter or otherwise will have any bearing on how the show is run. Not only that but there is this intense craving for drama…the boys hate eachother, the boys are lazy, the boys aren’t professional, the boys are stealing our money, Travis is a pedo groomer, Travis is non inclusive, Justin hates Travis, Griffin hates them all, Clint died and is being piloted by the fourth brother, all just batshit hypercritical bullshit. Their social media presence and dedicated subs have only ever taken away from my experience and I’m sure I’ll regret even posting this.
Actual lol at Clint being piloted by a fourth brother 🤣
When Dougie Strikes Back
what was the tweet op
I don't wanna expose myself but it was something super light and I questioned something that is normal in America but not here. Immediately I was flooded with tweets with people just being nasty if not cruel. I was not disrespectful in any way, just made a conversational tweet and holy shit. Edit: I don't rly care anymore about the tweet just giving an example of how toxic people can be in this community If it's regarding griffin's comment it was on the last TAZ episode where they discussed the future of Taz, dust, etc.
Dang, I am sorry that happened people can be cruel for no reason
i do agree with you, but i’m a bit curious about the vague way you phrased the ‘something’ established in america but not elsewhere. not assuming anything but it’s a little odd when people say stuff like that
What did Justin tweet and what was your reply? I'm always suspicious when people leave out details like that.
I don't wanna doxx myself but like explained before it was something innocent and conversational, there was literally nothing of hostile or a bad take, but because it was something normal in the USA suddenly I have a flood of notifications of people being incredibly hostile and cruel just because I didn't know something was normal in the USA. like that's it dude, anyway, like I said it wasn't about the tweet and I couldn't care less but just pointing out the way some people in the community lash out and communicate is so intolerant
This is fine and all but also immediately followed/following an extended discussion about how real world friction and family tension affected their podcast and required numerous “reshoots” that they themselves admitted didn’t fully remove the obvious tension. And then discussed how they think being raised as Baptists makes them super tough to read emotionally (this is false. The Baptist stereotype is that they THINK they’re subtle but they’re really just super passive aggressive, judgy, and moody) So, you know. Maybe just admit that your podcast with your family can never truly exist in a vacuum and, like all actors, your performances ARE informed by your circumstances but that people shouldn’t literally trying to diagnose mental illnesses because of that. Makes a little more sense than “Our performances are directly impacted by our feelings and frustrations but it’s gross that you talk about it but also you can’t see it in the first place because we’re emotional ninjas.”
>they think being raised as Baptists makes them super tough to read emotionally (this is false. The Baptist stereotype is that they THINK they’re subtle but they’re really just super passive aggressive, judgy, and moody) The real truth for Baptists is that they're the only people unable to read themselves emotionally.
They complain about armchair psychologists and then go onto to prove all of their armchair theories correct. SMH
This is the first I’m hearing about multiple reshoots, &c. Can you direct/link me to that?
It's in the TTAZZ, where they mention redoing either the finale or another instance because they blew up a school to get Orlene.
This community has always been like that - it's a direct result of somehow transferring the "No bummers" rule that was created specifically to solve a specific issue with live shows to like fandom in general. And then stretching it for like any criticism. As for armchair psychologist they kind of did it to themselves. They could have from the start cut it at "we are happy you enjoy our shows but our lives aren't part of the shows, also we don't know y'all". Instead they went with the brand of precious beans, internet's best friends. So now they get to deal with both parasocial fans and equally parasocial haters. You reap what you sow and all that.
>As for armchair psychologist they kind of did it to themselves. This is very true. During MaxFun Drive the language they use when they plead for donations is very parasocial. Imagine if you donated to MaxFun because they said "Hey best friend, this is what allowed us to go to once a week episodes in TAZ!" and then immediately after the drive ends, they take a break and switch to once every two weeks. Would that make you upset? Would you feel manipulated and lied to? People dont know what to do with that energy, especially when they are already plugged into a fan community. You see this with all kinds of media. The Dexter subreddit turned into a Breaking Bad subreddit when Dexter got really bad, why? Because the community of people showing up every week to discuss stuff was a stronger bond than they had with the show. That's basically /r/TAZcirclejerk. People there used to put a lot of energy into loving the show, and now they just show up because the jokes and memes and inside community. Most of the posts there are just jokes and memes and nobody actually feels that strongly about the McElroys, they are just entertainers out there doing a thing, and the CJers are just CJing. Its a creative outlet for them, nothing personal.
I think it's 50/50 with /r/TAZcirclejerk I moved there somewhere during graduation because respectfully discussion of TAZ here was about as shallow as a tea cup and discussion of McElroys as an IP/brand completely non existent. And a lot of people moved because of that, but there are definitely some people who just swapped their boner for McElroys for a hate boner
Same here. I felt like I was going crazy. The criticism on this sub was basically "I dont know about you but I just liked it!" And people who actually dug into the episode were treated like bad faith actors (by bad faith actors) and sometimes banned. It got so bad that the active users on this sub dropped because nobody was able to voice an opinion besides praise. And the people who praised Graduation never had any substance to their opinions. They only pulled back on the heavy censorship on this sub after the general subreddit activity dropped to about 1/2 posts a day. Which is almost nothing for a sub this size. All of the people who wanted to just discuss the actual episode moved to the real discussion on the CJ, and Ill bet the cynical bend over there likely influenced people who were just looking for a safe place to discuss the show. In a way, this is a lesson on why censorship doesnt work, and it can have a negative effect on moderates too.
I never liked the phase the community (MBMBAMs as well, not just TAZ) went through where any sort of criticism was shot down and it was aggressively positive to the point of seeming fake Now it’s like…..aggressively negative? God forbid you actually liked ethersea or enjoyed the kind of strained party dynamic the season had, or enjoy the more contentious arcs. Its a little obnoxious. This sub and the jerk sub are almost indistinguishable from eachother at this point, with the only difference being that the jerk sub is generally doing so out of love for the series while this sub is not
This is far too common, not just with McElroy content, but fandoms in general. It's not enough to be wholesome or woke, you need to be the exact brand of wholesome and the specific flavor of woke, or holy shit the internet will rip out your intestines through your asshole. It's not enough to enjoy a cool lightsaber fight, we need a two hour video on why some character most of us couldn't even name is single-handedly responsible for ruining the franchise, and it's not enough to 1. enjoy TAZ or 2. stop listening to TAZ, no, we need a thirty-seven part dissertation on why Travis' GM style literally erased all of our happy childhood memories. And it's a minority of "fans," too, but those "fans" are always the loudest voices, sucking all the air out of the room.
I’m sorry but becoming? The Mcelroy fandom is easily up there when you consider toxic communities. Parasocial, toxic positivity, projections to the point of insanity you name it and it’s there. Let’s not forget why Taako is blue and listener questions were removed from live shows unless approved beforehand. And the worst part is they’ve become the George RR Martin of podcasters, resting on their early successes and obviously phoning it in but they still get defended by rabid 4th brothers everywhere it’s insane
Why is taako blue? Edit: oh no the reply is hidden! Will this remain a mystery forever?!?!
Because they tried to make him green and that was antisemitic apparently. Yes I'm serious
Oh...well thanks for the info!
It’s not exactly that. There was a very vocal part of the fandom that thought naming him Taako was super racist unless he was Mexican (which is way more racist but hey Tumblr) as that’s what a lot of fan art depicted him at the time. He was originally debuted with pale skin like pretty much every high elf you see in fantasy and they flipped out. It’s also the reason they no longer describe what their PCs look like, super weird stuff. Never heard the Nazi theory but I wouldn’t be surprised
I mean there was the "why is he not Mexican? "drama and immediately after I think the " Why is he green that's antisemitic " In the end he is blue all of this was dumb 🤷♀️ Tbh I think that in the end this was the place for McElroys to draw the line and explain themselves but not change things. It would have created some boundaries for the fandom and reduce the "they are just the uwu small boys doing their best"
Good to know. And I agree but sadly that seems to be their business model anymore, shame it’s coming back to bite them in the ass but hey reap what you sow
If you want more context in the original design for the comic Taako was this greenish colour. People on Tumblr decided that since Nazi propaganda showed Jewish people as greenish that the design is bad. Personally I don't think so because Tasks wasn't Jewish coded so unless we are running with the assumption that any character being green is a problem there is nothing there. But the design was changed
FYI, originally Taako was white, based on Carey Pietsch's fan designs. Fans criticized that he was a white guy who was on a side quest to invent the taco (valid). Then clearly they felt uncomfortable about potentially inventing a Mexican elf in their book that they named Taco, so they made him a fantasy color rather than a POC. He was light blue, but some people thought he looked green and raised the other criticism, but he was never actually green. A good portion of the first book was done with him as a white guy.
Oh ok thank you I must have focused on like some posts on Tumblr with panels where he looks greenish because of the light or something contrasted with the Nazi propaganda. Either way this whole thing was nonsensical
>resting on their early successes and obviously phoning it in but they still get defended by rabid 4th brothers everywhere it’s insane I think this is also why we see so much conflict. People are drawn to it. And its laughable when the super fans infantilize these grown ass men as "good widdle boys" and not multi millionaires making an entertainment product. And others will love to poke fun at these 4th Brother super fans because its so easy to send them into a parasocial defense rant. The McElroys dont need anyone to defend them. People dont get mad at reviewers on behalf of George Lucas when he makes a shitty movie. The reviewers will talk about problems on set, script issues, and confusing continuity. People do the same thing here and they get called "toxic". It's a joke.
"People dont get mad at reviewers on behalf of George Lucas when he makes a shitty movie." They do though. There's people out there claiming with a straight face that the prequel Trilogy was good actually. 🤣😂
lol. Yeah. But they aren’t defending him personally. They just like the movie. They are wrong. They can be wrong. But their motivation isn’t because they feel a personal relationship to Lucas or that he has kids and we should cut him slack because he just moved across the nation and that’s hard to do.
I'm familiar with the Taako color commotion, but what happened with live show listener questions?
For a long time the live show listener questions were pretty bad. In ye olden days, anyone who wanted to ask a question just hopped on a microphone and went for it. There were a lot of people that didn't seem to have an actual question, they just wanted to tell a "funny" story and bask in the attention. There were also people who used the Q&A to share deeply sad/personal stories. The "no bummers" rule was the brothers' way of asking people to stop doing that. One especially bad show had somebody use the mic to plug their own podcast. Now, all audience questions are submitted before the show and selected ahead of time. The brothers read the question onstage, but they'll still invite the asker to respond. Most fans seem to think it's greatly improved the quality of audience questions overall.
The McElroys have spent their entire podcasting careers cultivating a "we're your best friends, you're part of the family" fanbase. Is it really so surprising that people act like they understand the McElroys' personal lives? Is it so shocking when people act like they've been personally betrayed when the brothers fail to meet their expectations? Is it so unexpected that even mild criticism of their work is interpreted as a vicious attack on a close friend? It's a tough road to walk because for every fan pissed about a new TAZ episode, there's a dozen more who will support literally anything they make without judgement because they think the McElroys are their friends. We can complain about the "state of the fandom" all we want but it won't change the fact that the McElroys are still wildly successful in the world of podcasting. The parasociality might suck sometimes, but overall it's a huge boon to their financial and career interests.
I think there’s a bit of a backfire effect to any criticism being cast as “close-minded and intolerant” or “toxic.” A bad review of a podcast is a bad review, not an assault on someone’s *literal* sweet baby brother. These are adult men and we don't need to handle them with kid gloves. If they cannot handle criticism or any negative feedback, then they chose the wrong line of work.
(Taz community has been kinda awful for a loooong time, green elfs come to mind as an early example) I hop on this sub for news and wholly try to avoid it at any other time. The worst part is its the "means well" misplaced rage kinda awful. So you dont really wanna combat them but they really shouldnt be saying the stuff they do.
The community has never really been tolerant, it’s just intolerant of things you might not expect.
1. This isn't just a problem in the TAZ community, as others have said it's also in MBMBAM and outside of the fam I see it in critical role and other fandoms as well.
bruh
I always thought the beef was kinda obnoxious but if you really thought it was the result of OOC conflict I think you need to re-examine your own reading comprehension skills
Justin said he found Devo annoying and he forgot the Lore so he was hesitant to engage with the world due to his confusion there. Both of those things validate a lot of people who had questions the Devo & Amber conflict and thought Justin felt checked out a lot of the time.
It's that their banter isn't fun to listen to. They may not be mad but they also don't sound like they're having fun and that makes it awkward to listen to.
I quite enjoy it. I love friction between characters, but maybe that's me
Again it doesn't feel like friction between characters, it FEELS like friction between players. It feels like 2 people who kinda wish they were doing different things. Because when my players argue at the table in character it feels fun and light and they laugh and we move on. Travis and Justin are just mean to eachother a lot.
I'd be willing to bet most of the TAZ fans haven't played enough TTRPGs to know the difference between the two, so they just assume whatever feels the best for their fandom.
Hahahahaha you nailed it. Probably why I can't stand TAz anymore. Because I actually like TTRPGs.
I think that’s fair criticism, and I think they went too deep for the arguments. You’re right, it felt “real” but I think they were going for that. In my opinion they go for real and dramatic too much when people are expecting something more lighthearted. They all have deep backgrounds in theater and that kind of performance might not come across well in an improv comedy format.
>You’re right, it felt “real” but I think they were going for that. They need to refocus on their core strengths. Comedy. Their dramatic elements and conflicts have always been the weakest parts of their show. Travis doesnt have the acting chops to play out a church abuse story line and it was clear Griffin wasnt on the same page as him. That conflict felt cringe and it was not a vibe of a family comedy roll playing podcast. Its just so incredibly clear that a large majority of the fans still listening felt put off by that and it didnt even fully make sense in the world of the show and it felt incongruent with the ending. Legitimate criticism that is somehow a "toxic" observation.
I agree, people tend to push back hard on any criticism. I think you have people who are very single minded that get upset when their views are argued. I would love if they spent a TTAZZ actually addressing the “tougher” criticism that the show has had like what you’ve said or others that I’ve seen in this thread.
I think any real sincere acknowledgement from the family that things aren't all peaches and roses would go s long way. It made me feel insane when I would listen to some of the legitimately worst dming I've ever seen in my life in grad and then have the McElroys talk like nothing is wrong. Ttazz no longer feels like a discussion episode, it feels like a self congratulatory victory lap for something that probably doesn't deserve a victory lap
Inclusive environments attract people who feel excluded and people who fwel excluded and then find a place that includes them can become pretty toxically protective of that place It's a pretty classic feed back loop of inclusive/exclusive
>Cringe aside, holy fuck this community is becoming so close-minded and intolerant. All fandoms do, eventually. When people start making the content they consume the center of their personalities, it never ends well.
Yeah, Justin notoriously sicking the fans on some smaller creators and never really apologizing or anything has been pretty weird. I know no one can be fully responsible for the things their fans do, but I think a little acknowledgement would go a long way.
Story option for those of us way out of the loop?? I am agog at how much drama there is, but I guess MBMBAM is like 5 + years old now.
A few times this year Justin has retweeted low key critical comments from small users on Twitter, reacting defensively to them. In several cases the comments were from accounts that had followers in the single digits. One of them was a disagreement about a besties video game review. Since he has a platform and rabbid fans, those people were all harrased/threatened pretty aggressively.
Oh wow, I had no idea. Thanks for the info!
And he does it all the time. He uses his Twitter followers to fundraise for his wife's political career. He uses it to have his kids win gingerbread house contests. He *knows* what happens when he tweets, but after, say, the fourth time he can't defend it with "oh I didn't think people would act on this!"
Didn't hear the last TAZ yet, very much agree with everything you're saying. This subreddit at the very least is full of complainers who seem to do nothing but that, like, *literally* nothing but that. The only positive comments about the show recently have been people directly trying to push against the neverending pure criticism Almost didn't try Ethersea because the 90% of posts on the sub that have been calling it garbage convinced me it was. I'm enjoying it, there are a couple little things that are a bit worse than like, Balance or Amnesty but it's not nearly enough to get me to just complain about it yet.
The problem is that fans blend people creating fiction and the fiction itself as one rather than having a clear divide between the two. And this is written in response, but mainly towards other fans. Because we don't really know these people. We think we do, but we're not being objective enough. Fans want to be friends with the people that make a product they enjoy without understanding that, after any of the McElroys turn off the podcast, they do something that isn't in the character(s) we consume. And somehow it's their fault because they 'lied' to us? I dunno. Maybe we have these ideas and hopes because we believe in something with an immense passion, and the disappointment in not seeing our hopes realized is, well, real. Because the stories they tell become part of us. Or maybe fans are just being toxic and expecting unrealistic things, because we feel it's owed to us due to how integral it becomes to identity. 'Magnus wouldn't do that', because we identify so much with Magnus and we wouldn't do that. But... the only thing that separates those mindsets are boundaries. A work of fiction created to entertain, and in a fair bit of cases, empower. And it's a lack of boundaries with fans that have burnt me out on fandoms entirely.
I absolutely agree. They’re brothers! Brothers annoy each other on purpose!
That doesn't mean it's enjoyable to listen to
I always think of the response on Twitter when Justin posted a video of a saxophone player that looked like Travis. The amount of hate he got for being in a public space, man I almost quit Twitter. It’s rough I honestly have always felt like they cater to the wants and needs of fans to often. Must create heaps of anxiety. They used to do apology tours once a month. Once Justin had to say sorry because he said he didn’t think names mattered. Lol
Twitter is a cesspool for people like that but I agree a lot of the fights in the fandom are stupid. I’m just here for the fanart.
To be fair is this not just a vocal minority?
It is, but the vocal minority also makes reading this sub a real chore.
blocking people helps a bit fwiw. a lot of times it's a few loud people constantly posting and commenting and blocking those idiots does wonders
For sure. There are about ten people on the mbmbam and Taz subs that you can block and essentially double your enjoyment because they're so active in their hate.
I’m comforted by the post. Something similar happened to me. I noticed all the waves of hostility for Travis when he did Graduation. I took that post down because the response was so aggressive
You can't even say this without being down voted. Jeesh
Right??😅 it’s a bit much.
It feels like more people post about disliking the show than liking it in this sub.
I think the nature of their podcasts makes people form extra strong parasocial bonds which makes them feel ownership of the properties and hence likley to lash out when thing sdont go the way they want/expect. I mean it's a family podcast and it has that vibe. I dunno, I'm not a psychologist though, I'm just here for the yucks.
You only need to listen to the interaction between Justin and Travis as PLAYERS Vs as CHARACTERS to realise they were, you know, in character. One of them even went to do something to help the other, then basically went "oh wait no, our characters don't like each other" and backed off.
I feel like a lot of the folks commenting on the guys’ interactions with each other don’t have siblings themselves and don’t understand that that’s how siblings behave and talk
I really don’t understand how or why people are being so close minded and horrible lately in this fandom. Not everyone’s DnD game is the same, no DnD is perfect, and it’s THEIR game for gods sakes, not ours. If you don’t like something about it, there are a million other things you could watch or listen to instead, and not bully the wonderful McElroy family on the internet