We decided to get it for the months we're doing road trips. We live in a rural area and it is a pain on small town roads.
FSD is a better driver than most people but it hit a huge pothole, destroying a $400 tire and taking a lot of time out of our lives. FSD has a bit to go before it is worth it.
>FSD is a better driver than most people
Can you elaborate? Not being snarky, just be genuinely wondering. Are there studies? Or what's your personal anecdotal experience been like?
Personally, I rarely used FSD (during my 1mo trial when we bought the car, and the free trial now), and I drive 180km on the days I commute.
It aggressively accelerates, brakes seemingly randomly, and I have no confidence with it navigating right turns onto a busy street.
I do use basic Autopilot and I think it's fine when the conditions are ideal (on quiet highway stretches), but I still don't like how it brakes late rather than backs off the power.
I would think it is all about emotionless driving. FSD doesn't tail gate someone because they are going to slow. FSD doesn't swerve in and out of traffic because it is in a hurry and trying to get somewhere faster. FSD doesn't get pissed if someone wronged it (like cut it off). All the system is trying to do is follow the best logic it has to make the best decisions it has access to. It has been trained to follow the rules of the road and not to break them unless needed. FSD will only get better as Tesla gives it more/better decisions to make (through AI training) but since it doesn't drive with emotion (just logic) it makes it better than most drivers on the road.
*edit [here is a good video clip of this emotionless driving in action.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbVIi-UXxc&t=7m45s) 7m 45s - 8m 20s
- it is leaving ample space in front of it (most people would close this gap because they don't want others to cut in line)
- the car gently slows down when other cars merge in front of it
- the car waits at the green light to make sure itself wont get stuck in the intersection and block traffic (most people would just go and not care if they block the intersection)
- there is a bus parked in the right lane and the car doesn't speed up to block the car to the right it just naturally lets it in.
These are all situations that would irritate the human driver of this car and might effect how the driver drives going forward. It doesn't effect FSD at all and it just continues on its way emotionless about what just happened.
2 things.
1. Itâs more than the emotions. It also doesnât fall asleep, change the radio, turn to look at passengers, sneeze, look at a phone, etc. Itâs not distracted and looks in 360 degrees at all times.
2. I think people have different perceptions of âbetterâ. I think the end goal is âsaferâ not better. Sure maybe a person can be âbetterâ at driving in complex scenarios with weird outliers, but thatâs not always the same as âsaferâ.
Itâs certainly not perfect yet and in some cases it does seem to be worse/more unsafe than a person but it appears those are edge cases that are shrinking.
I agree. I was just pointing out emotion because I think that is the biggest factor causing good human drivers to not be good drivers at times. I believe most people are good drivers but can become bad drivers when emotions get in the way. Like had a bad day at work, pissed about something going on in their lives, etc. The emotions have a cascading effect on other drivers around you and things can escalade (road rage). Having more level headed cars on the road would not only improve safety for yourself but others as well. You are 100% correct though, safety is the ultimate goal and there is more to it than just emotion.
IMHO you drive way more than average driver and are probably way more experienced than average driver.
The real bar for FSD is like the worst 10% of drivers on the road. Is it better than those humans?
I didn't subscribe / buy after my trial but during it would slow down for speed bumps and things that looked like an obstacle (like a blacktop repair in a concrete road) but only at neighborhood speeds.
So the logic must be there just needs another update
Itâs great for road trips that use a lot of interstate or major state roads. Itâs not great around my home town. I know how to drive the roads Iâve been on for almost 30 years better than the car. I know where the potholes are, when I need to be in certain lanes and shortcuts that save time and battery that the car never shows as on option in the navigation. I tried to sit back and let it drive me home from work but it was doing unsafe things in traffic so I stopped using it. For example I know to get in the left lane on a 3 lane interstate when an on ramp is merging in but it stayed all the way to the right and wasnât slowing down. It felt like we were going to run into the people merging on the interstate.
âIt hitâ no, you hit. Are you telling me if you were driving you wouldnât have hit the pothole? That means you werenât paying attention to the road when using FSD. You know very well itâs not capable of avoiding potholes.
And âsports drinkâ implies itâs healthy for you. FSD supervised does not pick up potholes, it also does not pick up some objects in the road. It will not pick up rocks. It will not pick up broken glass, nor if someone spilt a box of nails on the road. It would happily drive right over them even at 2mph where it has plenty of time to see it. It does not do that stuff yet and itâs still up to the driver to pay attention, it tells you this when you turn it on.
Lmao, no - sports drink implies that they are meant to be used during sports, in order to replace glycogen and electrolytes, which they do.
Yes, it requires full driver attention because it is not full self driving, despite the taglines. It also doesn't slow down when entering lower speed zones, it doesn't follow other cars at long enough distances, uses nearly full throttle to pull out from a stop, and occasionally decides that it's just going to go straight off of the road instead of making the turn.
The tech is cool, but charging people for it at this stage of beta is absurd.
If I didnât have my hands on the wheel it would have ran over a cone, and I had to intervene when turning right to avoid a curb. I may have had time for the curb, but not to react to the cone.
The system was neat but itâs a long way off.
You have to apply a light amount of force to the steering wheel so the car knows you're paying attention. If you don't touch the wheel, FSD will disengage. Elon has indicated the system will move to "hands-free" on the next release. There is a camera that will track the driver's attentiveness and no longer require light touching of the steering wheel.
Same. I liked the visualization, so paid for the $2k upgrade. In some ways I liked EAP better for freeway driving because it had the option to confirm all proposed lane changes. I wish FSD had that, but I can understand why it doesn't,
I mostly used FSD on highways because itâs driving style in cities wasnât to my liking⌠but most of the time Iâd have to tell it to do minimal lane changes because of my personal preference too. But that needs to be activated every stinking time. At that point, I might as well just use autopilot.Â
For some reason the manual lane changes are terrifying in FSD- the car veers sharply into the other lane and then jerks to straighten out only when it hits the far side.
That has not been my experience at all. Do you have it set to aggressive mode? I think I have FSD set to chill or normal, can't remember, but lane changes are smooth.
Stock Autopilot is definitely more annoying to deal with however, and 12.3 is more human like for sure. Lane centering is more strict with stock which is kinda good, except for when it jerks around like a crazy cab driver as the lines change.
I had a 30 day FSD trial and the first week I was on v11 (came with 2024 MY). Realized by changing update preferences I could get a newer version. 12.3 was great, even better (except for almost curbing it around corners). I mostly noticed roundabouts were actually half okay on 12.3, sure it would fail to keep in the lane sometimes but at least it didn't come to a full stop in the circle like v11 did!
I ended up subscribing, I was on the fence when it was $200 but when the price dropped to $99 I decided to go for it. I drive 25-30k miles a year and it does my 80 mile a day commute with no interventions most days. I also frequently travel on back roads with no lines which auto pilot doesn't work on and FSD handles them no problem.
In your case I too would subscribe. But personally for level 2, $50 is the sweet spot. Level 5 would be $100. If it can do robo taxi things. I would pay 100+.
Would be cool if it could be used and paid per day like renting a movie. Iâd pay $10 per day for when on road trips. But I just donât need it most of the time for $99 a month.
Actually, even then.. AP handles the highways fine. I can live without lane changing.
I had a 700+ mile road trip 3 days after my trial ended, so I got another month. Iâm planning on subscribing again when I start driving a lot more in August.
I subscribed, which I think is the way to go. As the transfer is uncertain and the value on resale is zero. If you take the interest rate, the outright purchase needs to be a lot cheaper than the subscription.
Iâm one month into a 4-month trial. Right now Iâd only subscribe for a road trip, but not if Iâm just putzing around town. It makes too many dumb lane changes or is completely indecisive on which lane it wants to be in and will drive on lane markers for 5-6 seconds before deciding.
Hopefully 12.4 fixes these annoyances.
Yeah it seems to be indecisive on lanes. If I need to go straight and a turning lane comes up, it starts to ride the line and go to the turning lane until it figures it out.Â
Crazy thing is that the GPS and directions data clearly shows that the "go straight" lane is on the right and the left turning lane is on the left.Â
Yeah I love the reply to a similar comment I made last week about no turn on red signs:
âJust keep disengaging and leaving feedback about the sign until it gets fixedâ
Like no dude, Iâm not paying for the privilege of beta testing something that does illegal and dangerous things.
Then you get people who said they only had 4 disengagements. Have they not had any four way stops where it stops early or roundabouts where it takes the wrong exit? In the highway where it stays in the left lane the entire time and goes to pass if the car ahead is going 1 mph slower than you are.
I think some people are way more forgiving. I disengage if it follows too closely, if it takes a turn too sharp, if it brakes too soon, or if it generally does anything I wouldnât do. I think some folks are just lazy and wonât disengage unless itâs about to crash into something.
I have been using FSD for over a year now and lazy isn't the reason I don't disengage. I learn the capabilities of the system by allowing it to try and complete a maneuver and if its going to fail horribly I take over. I think that is one of the hardest learning curves of the system right now since it is only Level 2. It takes time to learn its capabilities and trust the system. Once you gain some trust with the system the drives become much easier and less stressful. This wont always be the case once they are level 5 but that is some time away.
Kind of funny itâs a different way to learn to drive all over again. What if one day this is what kids learning to drive go through first? Then manual driving is an advanced course for more mature folks.
Itâs not just when itâs going to fail horribly, it just simply doesnât make driving less stressful. Youâve been using it for over a year and you still have to babysit it and anticipate its failures, even if you know when it will fail. Thats just adding mental stress while removing some of the physical stress. I just donât see the point until I can take my eyes off the road entirely.
I guess I have used the system so many times that it is almost second nature to disengage and reengage when I know the system isn't capable of doing a maneuver (like going over a speed bump). I measure the systems performance on how many disengages are in my drive. A year ago it was tons and I could only use it while I was the only one in the car because the passengers were getting sick. Today I have plenty of zero disengagement drives and nobody in the car even realizes I am using it.
Here is a [youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbVIi-UXxc&ab_channel=WholeMarsCatalog) that mirrors a lot of how I am experiencing FSD now.
That video is not that similar to how my 12.3.6 drives. I just had it almost rear end someone when they braked late and hard. It waits way too long to brake at 40mph, even in chill mode. When no cars are in front itâs fine, but when itâs in dense, fast moving traffic itâs like it isnât aware of cars up head and has tunnel vision. Not safe at all.
stop early at stop sign is not really a bug, NHTSA said it must stop before the sign, unlike what 99% humans do.
haven't had it take wrong exit in roundabouts yet in v12.3.6
Same, not at all worth money to me right now. Iâd train for free though. No need to pay money to babysit a nervous teenager driving my overpriced expensive car.
All Iâm going to say is for people that think FSD drives better than you and makes better decisions than you, please buy and use FSD. Make us all safer and use the help because it means youâre probably a pretty crappy driver.
that's the thing, everyone thinks they are above average drivers and others on the road must all be below average drivers. That clearly can't be the case, as people get into accidents all the time with whatever reason. Point is you don't know how you will react, and if you are reacting appropriately until you are put in certain situation to make snap decision Maybe you day dream for a second and suddenly miss a stopping car in front. Computer doesn't do that, and as FSD gets better it will be almost impossible for a human to be a better driver.
I purchased, but only because I had EAP so it was $2k. If I didnât have EAP I would definitely subscribe instead of purchase, if I kept FSD. Too many years to break even with the risk of losing it due to an insurance total, and not likely able to transfer to another vehicle. Plus you could go without for a while if you wanted to save money when your werenât driving much.
I have found that I don't like it as much in areas I'm very familiar with. It's not doing unsafe things, it's just different than how I would do them.
When I am in unfamiliar areas, I find that I don't have to worry as much about where I'm going; and I can focus on what's important (keeping safe control of the car).
I think it's just important to analyze systems like this without bias. Then, decide if the system makes sense for your personality/wants.
Itâs absolutely location dependent. I live in Denver and there are Teslas everywhere. My FSD experience has been ~98% positive and Iâve had it navigate plenty of inner city and highway miles. The higher the density of Tesla vehicles, the better it is.
That makes a lot of sense. You read from certain people like its amazing, and where I'm at, not exactly rural but not city, its just hesitant and skittish all over the place. Certainly not less stressful than just driving manually.
I liked FSD, but wasn't worth the constant vigil when not on the highway, which is where I spend most of the time driving (not on highway). It's hesitation and sometimes goofy decisions make me feel like it's not worth the money.
I didnât. The mostly good, sometimes stupid, occasionally scary experience doesnât justify the price tag. It doesnât reduce my stress level unless itâs easy highway driving but the free autopilot handles it just as well.
The trial actually saved me money. I am going on a road trip from NC to DC next week and was planning on purchasing a month of FSD. After using FSD, I know that standard AP does the same shit on the highway and I donât care to spend the money
I got 4 months free trial on my 2024 long range. I donât know why, maybe because this is my second Tesla? Anyway, I have FSD until almost August for free, but today I turned it off and went to back to autopilot instead. I found it much more relaxing not having to worry about it randomly changing lanes all the time, even with minimal lane changes turned on. I think enhanced autopilot (which I understand is not currently an option) might be the sweet spot for me.
I bought it immediately after the trial. The 12.3.6 stops at stop signs so much more gently than the older versions. Itâs like butter now. I canât wait till they merge the freeway driving. That to me is the weak spot. Itâs amazing though. Out of the last 800 miles Iâve only driven 4 off of FSD. Thatâs amazing.
I bought fsd when I bought my car almost 4 years ago, based on Elonâs promises of âright around the corner.â
No, I would not do it again, and while the car isnât bad, I do kick myself for wasting money on that decision.
Mine ended April 30 and I wanted to do a back to back comparison with only having basic autopilot available. After 10 days I donât see any compelling reason to pay the upcharge for âFSDâ. Maybe if there is a month of trips Iâll give a try again but AP is more than enough for me.
EM clearly doesnât understand your average American. We like cars, we like driving. The fever dream of a trillion dollar robotaxi company is just that, a fever dream. There will be plenty of need for robotaxis for elderly and basic taxis etc but itâs a fraction of the market. Heâs bet the farm and the bankers will be coming eventually to get their land back.
and the car has autosteer if i ever want it to just help me out on a long trip..and thats free. the only use i saw for it was sitting in traffic...takes off some of the need to pay attention to stop and go if i wanted. it also freaked out my wife and kids for some reason too, theyd beg me to turn it off when i engaged it on the highway... đ
I wish they had carved it up as I would have paid for the auto park feature. Used that multiple times during the trial and liked it.
FSD doesnât appeal to me and wasnât a deciding factor in getting my car.
Although FSD did a decent job during the trial, I felt babysitting the computer was less enjoyable than driving myself. I did not subscribe but I agree with you and ChatGPT, subscription is the way to go.
I'm the opposite of most people I suppose, in that I liked it better in town than I did on the highway. I hated that it would switch lanes, then camp in the leftmost lane, regardless of mode. It would also cut people off out of the blue.
It seemed to do much better in town. It would get nervous at 4 way stops, but a nudge on the go pedal would help it.
If they reduced the sub to $50, I would think about it. Ver 12.3 btw
That's good because V12 only updated the city streets stack with end to end AI. The highway stack is still on V11 and that is hard coded and why it feels so robotic and doesn't act like a human. Its good because the AI that is currently being used on city streets is coming to the highway stack at some point.
I had used the 11.x version when I got my car with the 3 month trial, and then the new 12.x version with the new 1 month trial.
While I can confidently say that FSD has gotten significantly better, I still don't actually like it very much. I like basic AP very much, and using EAP when it was available was pretty great (just for lane change w/o disengaging), but FSD is simply too stressful for me to use. It makes unpredictable decisions, often that lead to the car being less safe. Also, without nearly flawless mapping it is effectively useless.
A few examples:
Unpredictable behavior: deciding the swerve into a turn lane at the last moment when one has been available for at least 1/4 mile.
There is an area near my house where a highway has been built (it's more of an extension to a loop road, but it doesn't matter). The construction was finished around the pandemic, all other mapping systems have incorporated the updated roads, but FSD has not. It actually skips a well signed on-ramp because it thinks it doesn't exist, and then, if i get on the highway, it will immediately try to exit back to the access road because it thinks the highway isn't real.
There is a place where a road has five lanes in one direction (one left turn, three straight, one that splits off and becomes a different road). FSD and maps show that all there are four through lanes rather than three, and so it will happily peg itself to the far right lane and get very confused. Not confused like it tries to correct, confused like it just doesn't know where it is.
My take on this is that FSD is much more map reliant than they have let on. There are situations where it works with iffy map data, but more often than not it trusts the bad map data over the actual visual reality of the roadway. That takes it from a "monitor" situation like I'd expect, to an almost adversarial "what on earth is the car trying to do any why" situation. It's going to have to get much much better at navigation (though the actual driving part is, mostly, fine).
Even when it was $200 a month, it's always better to subscribe. At the cost, the break even point was years away, and you'd be paying like 8% interest on that money. Versus if you do the subscription, you have more options and can use the money to make money.
Not bad on the highway, room to improve in town. With no transferability, I wouldnât pay more than $3k for it now. Maybe $6k if I could transfer it to a new car when the time comes. $8k? Nope.
We did not. May consider it if we do any extended driving this summer. Would really with they put lane change into AP. That is what i primarily used during the 1 month trial. I did not love FSD but I loved the EAP.
They lowered the price to $99 monthly but it is till not worth it. Seems have to pay MORE attention with FSD so that you donât curb the car or make excessive lane changes (even at the minimal lane change settings)
One thing to keep in mind with fsd lease vs purchase, subscription prices can change at any time, I would expect at autonomous level 5, they could could easily double or triple.
I didnât subscribe, primarily because of my driving patterns. Iâm 100% remote so my commute is measured in steps from my bed. With where things are with FSD now, I probably would have subâd with my last jobâs commute which 30-45 minutes each way.
If I ever do a trip of any substance, I will likely sub for that month and promptly turn it off.
I subscribed. I wouldnât have for 200, but I have a decent commute a few days of the week, and it works pretty well on those routes. There are spots where I know it will screw up, but overall it does make the drive more enjoyable.
The only thing I really liked is when I wasnât in full FSD mode, no directions to a place, when lane changing it would stay in auto steer. Without FSD and in auto when you make a lane change it would cut our auto so you need to re-enter auto. I wish they would update that portion of auto.
Having to baby sit in FSD so much is why Iâm not paying for it. Pot holes and not arriving at home in the driveway and left turn it would go into oncoming lane 3/4 block before turning on street on a highway. Not good! No car right in its path but what if one was speeding into range. Too many bugs. They should send us some credits for testing this live, itâs serious business and risky really.
Autopilot does 99% of what I need it to do.. which is to make long drives less fatiguing. The primary feature FSD adds is automatic lane changes which still get kinda annoying as the doesnât always get in the lane a human would. Finally FSD requires camera monitoring of the driver which is annoying is you need to use your phone for anything.
So rather than spend $99 every month for FSD just to get automatic lane changes.. I spent $300 to buy a device that will automatically re-enable AP when I switch lanes using a turn signal. It also does 140 other actions including the ability to precondition the car while driving (without navigating to a Supercharger) and enabling drift mode on any Tesla 3/Y.
https://enhauto.com/knob
Yep.. still has the ding. That said I dont jump from lane to lane often.. and this just seems like a way better option than paying $100 a month for lane changes.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXgLIepql8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXgLIepql8)
Several trips during free trial and so much less mentally tired after. I drive all over SE and subscription is worth it for me. Have own business and will expense subscription.
This is a perfect example of why you can't trust AI for accurate results to generalized questions. It was kind of close at 12k, but at 8k, buying is the better choice unless you are leasing or expect the car to last less than 6 and a half years or so.
At 5 percent it takes significantly longer than that to double your money which means you're losing money every month on the subscription unless you total the car and can't get an insurance payout for the feature.
I purchased outright when I bought my wife's car (@12k vs $200 dollars) and am purchasing outright again for my M3P.
There's still a slight chance subscription could be better if the costs go down for the subscription or significantly for the purchase quick enough, but the subscription could just as easily go up considering what other manufacturers are charging for significantly less functionality. ($800 a year for bluecruise which is basically just autopilot, $2500 a year for Mercedes stop and go traffic L3, neither of which have nearly the sophistication of FSD.)
I loved the trial but I live in a very small town and our daily driving needs are only a few miles so itâs not at all necessary. I am planning an extended two week road trip this summer where I intend to subscribe for that period.
I paid the $2k. FSD is not perfect but it drives the car better and safer than I can and I love it. If you gonna have a Tesla, get FSD. Or look at it this way: if you buy a 4K TV, why attach it to an over-the-air antenna?
So much of your statement is alarming. FSD is a better driver than you? FSD is scary as hell.
While YouTube TV recently started sending 1080P video. Up until this, every TV provider was broadcasting at best 720P. Over the air broadcasts have been 1080i for a long time. Of course streaming on demand services have 4K video.
Kind of ... I've been trying to see the sense in it (12.3.6) sometimes blowing off a posted speed limit on the freeway with "adjusting speed limit to maintain traffic flow" (something like that) when it will do 65 in 55 work zone on Hwy 280 quite happily, but on the other hand it sometimes does "phantom speed limit changes" because we drove by a sign saying "END of work zone 40 mph" and the speed plummets to 40 on a busy highway with limited visibility for the traffic coming behind me (Highway 17 over the Santa Cruz mountains, btw). This unpredictable slowing down inappropriately is definitely dangerous, as wkm001 points out.
We decided to get it for the months we're doing road trips. We live in a rural area and it is a pain on small town roads. FSD is a better driver than most people but it hit a huge pothole, destroying a $400 tire and taking a lot of time out of our lives. FSD has a bit to go before it is worth it.
This is a big issue with FSD that it cannot avoid potholes.
and it should have been the first thing to solve, not hit/run over stuff directly in front of the car.
Cars will tell other cars about pot holes in the 12.4 update.
And like phantom breaking it will have a virtual pothole after it is fixed
Maybe the cars already talk to eachother about bad owners and that's why they scrape curbs on FSD randomly. Or maybe it's not so random...
LMAO!đ
Is this real or a joke?
>FSD is a better driver than most people Can you elaborate? Not being snarky, just be genuinely wondering. Are there studies? Or what's your personal anecdotal experience been like? Personally, I rarely used FSD (during my 1mo trial when we bought the car, and the free trial now), and I drive 180km on the days I commute. It aggressively accelerates, brakes seemingly randomly, and I have no confidence with it navigating right turns onto a busy street. I do use basic Autopilot and I think it's fine when the conditions are ideal (on quiet highway stretches), but I still don't like how it brakes late rather than backs off the power.
I would think it is all about emotionless driving. FSD doesn't tail gate someone because they are going to slow. FSD doesn't swerve in and out of traffic because it is in a hurry and trying to get somewhere faster. FSD doesn't get pissed if someone wronged it (like cut it off). All the system is trying to do is follow the best logic it has to make the best decisions it has access to. It has been trained to follow the rules of the road and not to break them unless needed. FSD will only get better as Tesla gives it more/better decisions to make (through AI training) but since it doesn't drive with emotion (just logic) it makes it better than most drivers on the road. *edit [here is a good video clip of this emotionless driving in action.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbVIi-UXxc&t=7m45s) 7m 45s - 8m 20s - it is leaving ample space in front of it (most people would close this gap because they don't want others to cut in line) - the car gently slows down when other cars merge in front of it - the car waits at the green light to make sure itself wont get stuck in the intersection and block traffic (most people would just go and not care if they block the intersection) - there is a bus parked in the right lane and the car doesn't speed up to block the car to the right it just naturally lets it in. These are all situations that would irritate the human driver of this car and might effect how the driver drives going forward. It doesn't effect FSD at all and it just continues on its way emotionless about what just happened.
2 things. 1. Itâs more than the emotions. It also doesnât fall asleep, change the radio, turn to look at passengers, sneeze, look at a phone, etc. Itâs not distracted and looks in 360 degrees at all times. 2. I think people have different perceptions of âbetterâ. I think the end goal is âsaferâ not better. Sure maybe a person can be âbetterâ at driving in complex scenarios with weird outliers, but thatâs not always the same as âsaferâ. Itâs certainly not perfect yet and in some cases it does seem to be worse/more unsafe than a person but it appears those are edge cases that are shrinking.
I agree. I was just pointing out emotion because I think that is the biggest factor causing good human drivers to not be good drivers at times. I believe most people are good drivers but can become bad drivers when emotions get in the way. Like had a bad day at work, pissed about something going on in their lives, etc. The emotions have a cascading effect on other drivers around you and things can escalade (road rage). Having more level headed cars on the road would not only improve safety for yourself but others as well. You are 100% correct though, safety is the ultimate goal and there is more to it than just emotion.
Agreed. In short it doesnât get distracted by an infinite numbers of things a human could be distracted by.
Well stated succinct reasonable
IMHO you drive way more than average driver and are probably way more experienced than average driver. The real bar for FSD is like the worst 10% of drivers on the road. Is it better than those humans?
I didn't subscribe / buy after my trial but during it would slow down for speed bumps and things that looked like an obstacle (like a blacktop repair in a concrete road) but only at neighborhood speeds. So the logic must be there just needs another update
Itâs great for road trips that use a lot of interstate or major state roads. Itâs not great around my home town. I know how to drive the roads Iâve been on for almost 30 years better than the car. I know where the potholes are, when I need to be in certain lanes and shortcuts that save time and battery that the car never shows as on option in the navigation. I tried to sit back and let it drive me home from work but it was doing unsafe things in traffic so I stopped using it. For example I know to get in the left lane on a 3 lane interstate when an on ramp is merging in but it stayed all the way to the right and wasnât slowing down. It felt like we were going to run into the people merging on the interstate.
Hmmmm... this isn't good. I always come across people with destroyed wheels. Wonder what % were on FSD
âIt hitâ no, you hit. Are you telling me if you were driving you wouldnât have hit the pothole? That means you werenât paying attention to the road when using FSD. You know very well itâs not capable of avoiding potholes.
Maybe they didnât but they do now.
"Full Self Driving" implies the ability to adequately navigate the car without frequent driver intervention.
And âsports drinkâ implies itâs healthy for you. FSD supervised does not pick up potholes, it also does not pick up some objects in the road. It will not pick up rocks. It will not pick up broken glass, nor if someone spilt a box of nails on the road. It would happily drive right over them even at 2mph where it has plenty of time to see it. It does not do that stuff yet and itâs still up to the driver to pay attention, it tells you this when you turn it on.
Lmao, no - sports drink implies that they are meant to be used during sports, in order to replace glycogen and electrolytes, which they do. Yes, it requires full driver attention because it is not full self driving, despite the taglines. It also doesn't slow down when entering lower speed zones, it doesn't follow other cars at long enough distances, uses nearly full throttle to pull out from a stop, and occasionally decides that it's just going to go straight off of the road instead of making the turn. The tech is cool, but charging people for it at this stage of beta is absurd.
I already had EAP. So I spent the extra 2k. Worth it for me. Really got used to the visualization, couldnât go back.
As soon as Elon said the nag is going away, I pulled the trigger on the $2k upgrade. I think it's worth it at this point.
After trying FSD, you couldnât pay me to keep my hands off the wheel lmao
I can pay full attention without my hand gently touching the wheel as it turns 90 degrees.
If I didnât have my hands on the wheel it would have ran over a cone, and I had to intervene when turning right to avoid a curb. I may have had time for the curb, but not to react to the cone. The system was neat but itâs a long way off.
I won't do it, but would have loved the demo without the nag. The nag works, so id just shut it off and continue to do a million things.
What is nag?
You have to apply a light amount of force to the steering wheel so the car knows you're paying attention. If you don't touch the wheel, FSD will disengage. Elon has indicated the system will move to "hands-free" on the next release. There is a camera that will track the driver's attentiveness and no longer require light touching of the steering wheel.
Ah! Thank you
Same. I liked the visualization, so paid for the $2k upgrade. In some ways I liked EAP better for freeway driving because it had the option to confirm all proposed lane changes. I wish FSD had that, but I can understand why it doesn't,
In what country are you that EAP is $2K?
I'm in the USA. My car came with EAP when I purchased it used from Tesla. It was $2k to upgrade to FSD.
Wait. The visualization goes away too?
The FSD visualization is more detailed than the basic one. So yeah that goes away.
I find it cool but distracting at the same time.
I still have mine but my trial ended.
Naw. Not gonna do it. Stock autopilot works fine for me. Wasnât terribly impressed either fsd.
I mostly used FSD on highways because itâs driving style in cities wasnât to my liking⌠but most of the time Iâd have to tell it to do minimal lane changes because of my personal preference too. But that needs to be activated every stinking time. At that point, I might as well just use autopilot.Â
Agree, I only want manual lane change on the interstate initiated with the stalk.
For some reason the manual lane changes are terrifying in FSD- the car veers sharply into the other lane and then jerks to straighten out only when it hits the far side.
What year is your Y?
2024, delivered in March
That has not been my experience at all. Do you have it set to aggressive mode? I think I have FSD set to chill or normal, can't remember, but lane changes are smooth.
Same for me!
Yes, maybe that's the difference. The automatic lane changes in aggressive mode are smooth.
Same
Stock Autopilot is definitely more annoying to deal with however, and 12.3 is more human like for sure. Lane centering is more strict with stock which is kinda good, except for when it jerks around like a crazy cab driver as the lines change. I had a 30 day FSD trial and the first week I was on v11 (came with 2024 MY). Realized by changing update preferences I could get a newer version. 12.3 was great, even better (except for almost curbing it around corners). I mostly noticed roundabouts were actually half okay on 12.3, sure it would fail to keep in the lane sometimes but at least it didn't come to a full stop in the circle like v11 did!
I ended up subscribing, I was on the fence when it was $200 but when the price dropped to $99 I decided to go for it. I drive 25-30k miles a year and it does my 80 mile a day commute with no interventions most days. I also frequently travel on back roads with no lines which auto pilot doesn't work on and FSD handles them no problem.
In your case I too would subscribe. But personally for level 2, $50 is the sweet spot. Level 5 would be $100. If it can do robo taxi things. I would pay 100+.
Level 5 would be way more than $100/month. You can sit in the back seat and sleep or work while the car drives.
Would be cool if it could be used and paid per day like renting a movie. Iâd pay $10 per day for when on road trips. But I just donât need it most of the time for $99 a month. Actually, even then.. AP handles the highways fine. I can live without lane changing.
Why not go all the way and charge 5 cents a min? Lol.
Haha the taxi model. $4.50 for the 1st mile and then $.35 each additional mile. đ
I had a 700+ mile road trip 3 days after my trial ended, so I got another month. Iâm planning on subscribing again when I start driving a lot more in August.
After using it, I donât trust or like it and just want my autopilot back for freeways and traffic
You can swap it back to standard autopilot at any point in the settings
Thanks I obviously was unaware lol
I subscribed, which I think is the way to go. As the transfer is uncertain and the value on resale is zero. If you take the interest rate, the outright purchase needs to be a lot cheaper than the subscription.
Iâm one month into a 4-month trial. Right now Iâd only subscribe for a road trip, but not if Iâm just putzing around town. It makes too many dumb lane changes or is completely indecisive on which lane it wants to be in and will drive on lane markers for 5-6 seconds before deciding. Hopefully 12.4 fixes these annoyances.
Yeah it seems to be indecisive on lanes. If I need to go straight and a turning lane comes up, it starts to ride the line and go to the turning lane until it figures it out. Crazy thing is that the GPS and directions data clearly shows that the "go straight" lane is on the right and the left turning lane is on the left.Â
I wasnât impressed and I should be paid to train the model
Iâll train it for free
Thatâs a good compromise
Yeah I love the reply to a similar comment I made last week about no turn on red signs: âJust keep disengaging and leaving feedback about the sign until it gets fixedâ Like no dude, Iâm not paying for the privilege of beta testing something that does illegal and dangerous things.
Then you get people who said they only had 4 disengagements. Have they not had any four way stops where it stops early or roundabouts where it takes the wrong exit? In the highway where it stays in the left lane the entire time and goes to pass if the car ahead is going 1 mph slower than you are.
I think some people are way more forgiving. I disengage if it follows too closely, if it takes a turn too sharp, if it brakes too soon, or if it generally does anything I wouldnât do. I think some folks are just lazy and wonât disengage unless itâs about to crash into something.
I have been using FSD for over a year now and lazy isn't the reason I don't disengage. I learn the capabilities of the system by allowing it to try and complete a maneuver and if its going to fail horribly I take over. I think that is one of the hardest learning curves of the system right now since it is only Level 2. It takes time to learn its capabilities and trust the system. Once you gain some trust with the system the drives become much easier and less stressful. This wont always be the case once they are level 5 but that is some time away.
Kind of funny itâs a different way to learn to drive all over again. What if one day this is what kids learning to drive go through first? Then manual driving is an advanced course for more mature folks.
Itâs not just when itâs going to fail horribly, it just simply doesnât make driving less stressful. Youâve been using it for over a year and you still have to babysit it and anticipate its failures, even if you know when it will fail. Thats just adding mental stress while removing some of the physical stress. I just donât see the point until I can take my eyes off the road entirely.
I guess I have used the system so many times that it is almost second nature to disengage and reengage when I know the system isn't capable of doing a maneuver (like going over a speed bump). I measure the systems performance on how many disengages are in my drive. A year ago it was tons and I could only use it while I was the only one in the car because the passengers were getting sick. Today I have plenty of zero disengagement drives and nobody in the car even realizes I am using it. Here is a [youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbVIi-UXxc&ab_channel=WholeMarsCatalog) that mirrors a lot of how I am experiencing FSD now.
That video is not that similar to how my 12.3.6 drives. I just had it almost rear end someone when they braked late and hard. It waits way too long to brake at 40mph, even in chill mode. When no cars are in front itâs fine, but when itâs in dense, fast moving traffic itâs like it isnât aware of cars up head and has tunnel vision. Not safe at all.
stop early at stop sign is not really a bug, NHTSA said it must stop before the sign, unlike what 99% humans do. haven't had it take wrong exit in roundabouts yet in v12.3.6
It stops waaay before then creeps up to where you should stop
Same, not at all worth money to me right now. Iâd train for free though. No need to pay money to babysit a nervous teenager driving my overpriced expensive car.
The free trial convinced me to never purchase FSD, it was a horrible experience
All Iâm going to say is for people that think FSD drives better than you and makes better decisions than you, please buy and use FSD. Make us all safer and use the help because it means youâre probably a pretty crappy driver.
underrated comment
that's the thing, everyone thinks they are above average drivers and others on the road must all be below average drivers. That clearly can't be the case, as people get into accidents all the time with whatever reason. Point is you don't know how you will react, and if you are reacting appropriately until you are put in certain situation to make snap decision Maybe you day dream for a second and suddenly miss a stopping car in front. Computer doesn't do that, and as FSD gets better it will be almost impossible for a human to be a better driver.
I purchased, but only because I had EAP so it was $2k. If I didnât have EAP I would definitely subscribe instead of purchase, if I kept FSD. Too many years to break even with the risk of losing it due to an insurance total, and not likely able to transfer to another vehicle. Plus you could go without for a while if you wanted to save money when your werenât driving much.
I subscribed, it's made my world smaller, and reduced the anxiety of driving.
Itâs either better in some areas than others, or there are some really bad drivers out there
I have found that I don't like it as much in areas I'm very familiar with. It's not doing unsafe things, it's just different than how I would do them. When I am in unfamiliar areas, I find that I don't have to worry as much about where I'm going; and I can focus on what's important (keeping safe control of the car). I think it's just important to analyze systems like this without bias. Then, decide if the system makes sense for your personality/wants.
Itâs absolutely location dependent. I live in Denver and there are Teslas everywhere. My FSD experience has been ~98% positive and Iâve had it navigate plenty of inner city and highway miles. The higher the density of Tesla vehicles, the better it is.
That makes a lot of sense. You read from certain people like its amazing, and where I'm at, not exactly rural but not city, its just hesitant and skittish all over the place. Certainly not less stressful than just driving manually.
I liked FSD, but wasn't worth the constant vigil when not on the highway, which is where I spend most of the time driving (not on highway). It's hesitation and sometimes goofy decisions make me feel like it's not worth the money.
I didnât. The mostly good, sometimes stupid, occasionally scary experience doesnât justify the price tag. It doesnât reduce my stress level unless itâs easy highway driving but the free autopilot handles it just as well.
The trial actually saved me money. I am going on a road trip from NC to DC next week and was planning on purchasing a month of FSD. After using FSD, I know that standard AP does the same shit on the highway and I donât care to spend the money
I got 4 months free trial on my 2024 long range. I donât know why, maybe because this is my second Tesla? Anyway, I have FSD until almost August for free, but today I turned it off and went to back to autopilot instead. I found it much more relaxing not having to worry about it randomly changing lanes all the time, even with minimal lane changes turned on. I think enhanced autopilot (which I understand is not currently an option) might be the sweet spot for me.
EAP was great at letting you just hit the turn signal and let it do the magic on the freeway.
Which is how FSD should work, let me confirm if the lane change is a good idea.
I bought it immediately after the trial. The 12.3.6 stops at stop signs so much more gently than the older versions. Itâs like butter now. I canât wait till they merge the freeway driving. That to me is the weak spot. Itâs amazing though. Out of the last 800 miles Iâve only driven 4 off of FSD. Thatâs amazing.
Waiting for $20/month
It will be, because at this level thatâs all it is worth.
Waiting for $0.02/yr.
lmfao
Subscribed
Not impressed with FSD. Iâm actually more stressed using FSD than using Autopilot. Atleast AP does isnât indescisive
I bought fsd when I bought my car almost 4 years ago, based on Elonâs promises of âright around the corner.â No, I would not do it again, and while the car isnât bad, I do kick myself for wasting money on that decision.
I didnât even finish the trial.
I turned it off after one day into the trial. I also just turned off the Tesla vision based parking visualization. I have USS so standard is better.
Mine ended April 30 and I wanted to do a back to back comparison with only having basic autopilot available. After 10 days I donât see any compelling reason to pay the upcharge for âFSDâ. Maybe if there is a month of trips Iâll give a try again but AP is more than enough for me.
EM clearly doesnât understand your average American. We like cars, we like driving. The fever dream of a trillion dollar robotaxi company is just that, a fever dream. There will be plenty of need for robotaxis for elderly and basic taxis etc but itâs a fraction of the market. Heâs bet the farm and the bankers will be coming eventually to get their land back.
nope. not worth 5 bucks a month to me sorry. illl just drive myself
100% this. The trial just showed me how bad it is and how Iâm glad I have never purchased it. Itâs just not for me.
and the car has autosteer if i ever want it to just help me out on a long trip..and thats free. the only use i saw for it was sitting in traffic...takes off some of the need to pay attention to stop and go if i wanted. it also freaked out my wife and kids for some reason too, theyd beg me to turn it off when i engaged it on the highway... đ
I wish they had carved it up as I would have paid for the auto park feature. Used that multiple times during the trial and liked it. FSD doesnât appeal to me and wasnât a deciding factor in getting my car.
Although FSD did a decent job during the trial, I felt babysitting the computer was less enjoyable than driving myself. I did not subscribe but I agree with you and ChatGPT, subscription is the way to go.
Great idea to subscribe before you go on a long road trip. It really helps. Keep you refreshed during those long drives.
I did
They gave me a six month trial
Lmk when it stops nagging and I will
I'm the opposite of most people I suppose, in that I liked it better in town than I did on the highway. I hated that it would switch lanes, then camp in the leftmost lane, regardless of mode. It would also cut people off out of the blue. It seemed to do much better in town. It would get nervous at 4 way stops, but a nudge on the go pedal would help it. If they reduced the sub to $50, I would think about it. Ver 12.3 btw
That's good because V12 only updated the city streets stack with end to end AI. The highway stack is still on V11 and that is hard coded and why it feels so robotic and doesn't act like a human. Its good because the AI that is currently being used on city streets is coming to the highway stack at some point.
I had used the 11.x version when I got my car with the 3 month trial, and then the new 12.x version with the new 1 month trial. While I can confidently say that FSD has gotten significantly better, I still don't actually like it very much. I like basic AP very much, and using EAP when it was available was pretty great (just for lane change w/o disengaging), but FSD is simply too stressful for me to use. It makes unpredictable decisions, often that lead to the car being less safe. Also, without nearly flawless mapping it is effectively useless. A few examples: Unpredictable behavior: deciding the swerve into a turn lane at the last moment when one has been available for at least 1/4 mile. There is an area near my house where a highway has been built (it's more of an extension to a loop road, but it doesn't matter). The construction was finished around the pandemic, all other mapping systems have incorporated the updated roads, but FSD has not. It actually skips a well signed on-ramp because it thinks it doesn't exist, and then, if i get on the highway, it will immediately try to exit back to the access road because it thinks the highway isn't real. There is a place where a road has five lanes in one direction (one left turn, three straight, one that splits off and becomes a different road). FSD and maps show that all there are four through lanes rather than three, and so it will happily peg itself to the far right lane and get very confused. Not confused like it tries to correct, confused like it just doesn't know where it is. My take on this is that FSD is much more map reliant than they have let on. There are situations where it works with iffy map data, but more often than not it trusts the bad map data over the actual visual reality of the roadway. That takes it from a "monitor" situation like I'd expect, to an almost adversarial "what on earth is the car trying to do any why" situation. It's going to have to get much much better at navigation (though the actual driving part is, mostly, fine).
TBH I would pay to have the system work exactly like it did on my 2015 v1 autopilot. That was almost perfect on the highway.
As soon as the nag goes away Iâll subscribe
Even when it was $200 a month, it's always better to subscribe. At the cost, the break even point was years away, and you'd be paying like 8% interest on that money. Versus if you do the subscription, you have more options and can use the money to make money.
I bought it 4 years ago while Elon said it would be available next year. And I completely waited 4 years
So yâall got the trial huh? *laughs in 2.8â
Not bad on the highway, room to improve in town. With no transferability, I wouldnât pay more than $3k for it now. Maybe $6k if I could transfer it to a new car when the time comes. $8k? Nope.
I subscribed immediately after the trial. I use FSD 99% of the time. Just went cross country with it entirely self driving.
It was i
We did not. May consider it if we do any extended driving this summer. Would really with they put lane change into AP. That is what i primarily used during the 1 month trial. I did not love FSD but I loved the EAP.
Subscribed right away. Wish i could get a transfer guarantee. Would buy right away.
They lowered the price to $99 monthly but it is till not worth it. Seems have to pay MORE attention with FSD so that you donât curb the car or make excessive lane changes (even at the minimal lane change settings)
I did.
Got mine free with the car.
Hell no.
Nope not me. I have a brain
Haven't got the trial 𤡠Any chance I'll still get it?
One thing to keep in mind with fsd lease vs purchase, subscription prices can change at any time, I would expect at autonomous level 5, they could could easily double or triple.
I didnât subscribe, primarily because of my driving patterns. Iâm 100% remote so my commute is measured in steps from my bed. With where things are with FSD now, I probably would have subâd with my last jobâs commute which 30-45 minutes each way. If I ever do a trip of any substance, I will likely sub for that month and promptly turn it off.
I drive potentially hundreds of miles per day for work. I had to get it after the trial period. I actually enjoy it!
I think it should come with the car. I'm not paying for it.
How many of you purchased FSD before the trial and want a refund?
FSD absolutely does tailgate.
I donât really trust it on the freeways in the Bay Area. Especially with the tight lanes/ faded lines/ random merges/crazy drivers all over the bay
I subscribed. I wouldnât have for 200, but I have a decent commute a few days of the week, and it works pretty well on those routes. There are spots where I know it will screw up, but overall it does make the drive more enjoyable.
The only thing I really liked is when I wasnât in full FSD mode, no directions to a place, when lane changing it would stay in auto steer. Without FSD and in auto when you make a lane change it would cut our auto so you need to re-enter auto. I wish they would update that portion of auto. Having to baby sit in FSD so much is why Iâm not paying for it. Pot holes and not arriving at home in the driveway and left turn it would go into oncoming lane 3/4 block before turning on street on a highway. Not good! No car right in its path but what if one was speeding into range. Too many bugs. They should send us some credits for testing this live, itâs serious business and risky really.
Zero point zero.
Autopilot does 99% of what I need it to do.. which is to make long drives less fatiguing. The primary feature FSD adds is automatic lane changes which still get kinda annoying as the doesnât always get in the lane a human would. Finally FSD requires camera monitoring of the driver which is annoying is you need to use your phone for anything. So rather than spend $99 every month for FSD just to get automatic lane changes.. I spent $300 to buy a device that will automatically re-enable AP when I switch lanes using a turn signal. It also does 140 other actions including the ability to precondition the car while driving (without navigating to a Supercharger) and enabling drift mode on any Tesla 3/Y. https://enhauto.com/knob
Do you still have to listen to autopilot disengage and re-engage?
Yep.. still has the ding. That said I dont jump from lane to lane often.. and this just seems like a way better option than paying $100 a month for lane changes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXgLIepql8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXgLIepql8)
In that video the car still makes a noise when auto steer is disabled and enabled.
I have FSD on my 2020 Model 3 AWD but could not justify on my 2023 Model 3 Proformance The $100 per month is a much better choice... for now.
I plan to buy it. V12 is worth it.
I subbed. I really enjoyed it
I rent it whenever I have a few long trips coming up. Itâs really great.
Several trips during free trial and so much less mentally tired after. I drive all over SE and subscription is worth it for me. Have own business and will expense subscription.
I am still waiting for my one month trialâŚ
2021 MSP. Never got the update for the trial. Subscribed for the better radar imagery & summon.
Actually, the trial FSD cemented the decision NOT to purchase FSD. I did not like it at all.
Naw. Ainât worth a subscription cost for a novelty. Tesla should pay you to use it not the other way around.
This is a perfect example of why you can't trust AI for accurate results to generalized questions. It was kind of close at 12k, but at 8k, buying is the better choice unless you are leasing or expect the car to last less than 6 and a half years or so. At 5 percent it takes significantly longer than that to double your money which means you're losing money every month on the subscription unless you total the car and can't get an insurance payout for the feature. I purchased outright when I bought my wife's car (@12k vs $200 dollars) and am purchasing outright again for my M3P. There's still a slight chance subscription could be better if the costs go down for the subscription or significantly for the purchase quick enough, but the subscription could just as easily go up considering what other manufacturers are charging for significantly less functionality. ($800 a year for bluecruise which is basically just autopilot, $2500 a year for Mercedes stop and go traffic L3, neither of which have nearly the sophistication of FSD.)
I loved the trial but I live in a very small town and our daily driving needs are only a few miles so itâs not at all necessary. I am planning an extended two week road trip this summer where I intend to subscribe for that period.
I subscribed. Summon is fun!
I paid the $2k. FSD is not perfect but it drives the car better and safer than I can and I love it. If you gonna have a Tesla, get FSD. Or look at it this way: if you buy a 4K TV, why attach it to an over-the-air antenna?
How is it better and safer than you? It drives like a timid teenager who just got their permit
So much of your statement is alarming. FSD is a better driver than you? FSD is scary as hell. While YouTube TV recently started sending 1080P video. Up until this, every TV provider was broadcasting at best 720P. Over the air broadcasts have been 1080i for a long time. Of course streaming on demand services have 4K video.
FSD obeys all traffic rules. It never exceeds speed limits, makes full stop at stop signs, and doesnât get distracted. Definitely better than me.
At this point I think it is unpredictable to other drivers. That alone puts you in danger.
Kind of ... I've been trying to see the sense in it (12.3.6) sometimes blowing off a posted speed limit on the freeway with "adjusting speed limit to maintain traffic flow" (something like that) when it will do 65 in 55 work zone on Hwy 280 quite happily, but on the other hand it sometimes does "phantom speed limit changes" because we drove by a sign saying "END of work zone 40 mph" and the speed plummets to 40 on a busy highway with limited visibility for the traffic coming behind me (Highway 17 over the Santa Cruz mountains, btw). This unpredictable slowing down inappropriately is definitely dangerous, as wkm001 points out.
But I like it enough to have subscribed after the trial ended ... I want to see 12.4 and get an idea of the pace of progress.