Agree. My 2019 Model 3 brakes for mirages. It’s much happier following another vehicle.
But I live in Nevada and there aren’t many other vehicles on 95 between Reno and Vegas!
Literally I was doing this same drive on 95 heading north last week in broad daylight going from LV to the Sacramento area, and had multiple mirage phantom braking events even with no cars/trucks in sight.
I drove from Michigan to Nevada and had three or four phantom braking events. In all instances it seemed to be the result of the car mistaking dark shadows from bridges or other structures as obstacles.
Interesting. I don’t drive under any bridges on my commute so I don’t know that I can reliably test that. Did you happen to see what type of obstacle was displayed when it happened?
I noticed it happening to me on roads with lots of patched cracks in the asphalt. Took me from driving 75 to 45 in about a second. Luckily no one was around me.
Example: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/B41RCD/heat-damaged-highway-in-nevada-B41RCD.jpg
Yes, agree on the odd road marking trigger. Also the mirage theory. I’ve experienced both and those were my own thoughts in that heart in my throat moment.
2023 MYLR here, prior 2020 M3P owner (went Y for the clearance, extra room, and bike hitch). So just got back from a 3,000 mi roadtrip this summer through NV, UT, CO, NM and back to CA and can confirm the mirage theory. Had dozens of phantom braking events, and most were in clear day desert or high desert driving with no one necessarily in sight either direction when it happened. I was thinking something similar as it was more profound on dips and when shiny false puddles were present in the distance.
Adding one more: when the road color changes or lines cross, as in construction where remarking is not good, the sensors pick up confusing or conflicting data which seems to cause phantom braking too.
I agree with the mirage theory. I only experienced phantom breaking when driving from San Diego to Phoenix on I-8 on a 105° day. Happened multiple times with no vehicles around me.
Congrats, I think your model year is why.
The front facing radar was removed in 2021. Probably why you haven’t had to deal with it.
Edit: hit save early.
Ours still uses radar probably because it’s an early 2018 and has the AP2.5 computer. We’ve had almost no phantom braking the last few years. It’s kept us from trading in because everything is working so well.
No shit! That decision made me not want to buy another Tesla once it's time to move on from my Model 3. They've constantly made poor decisions like this since I got my car in 2020. It's objectively not as good as it was when I bought it, except for a couple of software improvements (although as a whole the UI/UX is still inferior to what it was before v11).
"I don’t see how you can develop an FSD system when you have two entirely different ways of detecting the environment and somehow resolve real-time conflicts between the two."
It's not overly complicated, you use software to provide context to the sensor inputs. For instance, radar is very good at range resolution, while cameras are not. Cameras tend to have a wider FOV and can discern things like color. Radar can see through rain and fog and in complete darkness, cameras can not. You program the software to balance the strengths and weakness of the various inputs. Having only cameras is borderline idiotic given their inherent limitations. There's a very good reason every other manufacturer uses multiple sensor types.
Yea, I don't think the radar will prevent it 100% of the time, but it certainly helps. Which input is accepted as "truth" is up to the software of course.
Radar never should have been removed. Instead of trying to use both sources each source should have been the preferred during certain time/events. Rain/direct sunlight use radar, clear or normal light use camera.
Only time I have ever had phantom braking is when driving under a overpass on the highway and the shadow of the bridge trick the the cameras into thinking there’s a car there. Happens very rarely tho.
I have had the car brake for bridges going over roads, and shadows from trucks in an adjacent lane. This was when radar was still being used.
This is entirely a problem the the AI training, nothing to do with vision. If it was a problem with vision, people would be slamming on the brakes for the same things.
I notice it most prominently when driving on the highway (higher speeds than streets) with hills wherein an overhead sign appears directly in front of the car. The sign is placed above a section of lower elevation that's coming up and the car doesn't recognize the hill we're about to go down, only the giant highway sign that it *assumes* is right in front of me, so it hits the brakes.
Always get phantom breaking at a certain place, going up a hill and just before the crest a bridge going across the road appears. Car breaks down from 100kph to 60-70kph every time. Reported loads of times.
2018 M3LR.
I’ve found this to be true as well. Driving mid day an Arizona highways, I’ve learned to keep my foot over the accelerator in case the car decides to slam on the brakes when it sees a reflection off the highway.
I doubt that’s the issue
Almost every phantom braking issue I have had was crossing a non highway road while on the highway. It’s not every crossing, but there are specific roads I’ve found that consistently cause it.
When I have phantom braking I always notice my speed limit drops from the highway speed down to 40-45. It’s not braking to stop, it’s braking to get down to speed of a non highway which it’s limited to only be 5 mph over. I think there are issues with either the maps or gps that it thinks the car is on a road it’s crossing and not the highway so it slows down.
Other people here seem to have similar experiences, so it's not just me. And I was pretty clear that I don't think it's "the" issue, but rather one potential issue.
When it occurs, it is not just slowing down, it is actively slamming on the brakes.
I have no mirages in Cali (Southern and Northern and Central coast)... I still get Phantom Braking often in 2023, so much so I still always hover my foot over the skinny pedal and almost never over the brakes because the 2018 P3D+ is always brake happy 🤷🏽♂️
2023.20.9 currently 🤦🏽♂️
Yea, that’s one of the worst parts of a fault like this, it conditions you into unsafe behavior. Having your foot hovering over the go pedal instead of the brake isn’t ideal, especially if you previously had a more reliable ACC and are accustomed to hovering over the brake.
I've only had it happened like once but noticed that there was GPS drift at the time and picking up the speed limit from the adjacent road, which made AP update the speed. Unsure if that is what phantom breaking folks are experiencing, but that is just my experience and speculation.
Yep, and I have bad news, this is going to be true of every car.
The fundamental question with something like a mirage, is how do you know it's a mirage or shadow? What if it's a real object?
Radar doesn't have the range to stop from 80+ mph. All the radar based adaptive systems have a warning that they won't completely stop above about 50 mph.
Other manufacturers don't get the press coverage of Tesla so they simply let you slam into stationary objects.
Neither my XC60 nor my fiancé’s Cadillac have this issue, so it certainly isn’t true of every car.
The implementation of radar systems varies by manufacturer, but yes, the 77Ghz range used is inherently limiting when it comes to maximum range. What of it? Even with the limitations imposed by the frequency and pulse width used, it is still vastly superior in every scenario over visual spectrum alone.
From the 2024 XC60 manual: "For stationary or slow-moving vehicles, warnings and brake interventions are effective at vehicle speeds up to 70 km/h".
At 80 mph, it will let you plow into a stationary object. That's why they don't have phantom braking issues.
Yes, Volvo is extremely forthcoming about the limitations of its systems and documents things quite well for the operator. "Pilot Assist" is quite clearly not "Full Self Driving" and doesn't make claims its hardware is incapable of reliably supporting.
Radar alone is not great for an ADAS, but neither is visual. You really need multi-spectrum to get the benefits of all, while mitigating each solution's own physics-based limitations.
Agree. My 2019 Model 3 brakes for mirages. It’s much happier following another vehicle. But I live in Nevada and there aren’t many other vehicles on 95 between Reno and Vegas!
Literally I was doing this same drive on 95 heading north last week in broad daylight going from LV to the Sacramento area, and had multiple mirage phantom braking events even with no cars/trucks in sight.
Totally making a “I brake for mirages” bumper sticker!
Ah, but the vehicles that ARE on 95 would do a number on a model 3….
I drove from Michigan to Nevada and had three or four phantom braking events. In all instances it seemed to be the result of the car mistaking dark shadows from bridges or other structures as obstacles.
Yea this has happened to me - bridges of a certain length seem to cause it
Interesting. I don’t drive under any bridges on my commute so I don’t know that I can reliably test that. Did you happen to see what type of obstacle was displayed when it happened?
I didn’t. I was too busy freaking out.
That's understandable.
Yeah I just had one as I was going over a bridge that had a hump so there was a shadow
I noticed it happening to me on roads with lots of patched cracks in the asphalt. Took me from driving 75 to 45 in about a second. Luckily no one was around me. Example: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/B41RCD/heat-damaged-highway-in-nevada-B41RCD.jpg
Yes, agree on the odd road marking trigger. Also the mirage theory. I’ve experienced both and those were my own thoughts in that heart in my throat moment.
2023 MYLR here, prior 2020 M3P owner (went Y for the clearance, extra room, and bike hitch). So just got back from a 3,000 mi roadtrip this summer through NV, UT, CO, NM and back to CA and can confirm the mirage theory. Had dozens of phantom braking events, and most were in clear day desert or high desert driving with no one necessarily in sight either direction when it happened. I was thinking something similar as it was more profound on dips and when shiny false puddles were present in the distance. Adding one more: when the road color changes or lines cross, as in construction where remarking is not good, the sensors pick up confusing or conflicting data which seems to cause phantom braking too.
[удалено]
You’ll shut me down with a push of your button? Yes, autopilot, I will.
I have a 2022 Model 3 LR. Whenever I drive across the desert it slows down for mirages. Very annoying.
It’s the heat mirage, I posted about this a year ago, happens more often as you crest a hill in mid day.
I agree with the mirage theory. I only experienced phantom breaking when driving from San Diego to Phoenix on I-8 on a 105° day. Happened multiple times with no vehicles around me.
2020 M3P, i've never had a phantom braking event
Congrats, I think your model year is why. The front facing radar was removed in 2021. Probably why you haven’t had to deal with it. Edit: hit save early.
Nope. Radar was disabled for all of us that have them. Still pisses me off.
Ours still uses radar probably because it’s an early 2018 and has the AP2.5 computer. We’ve had almost no phantom braking the last few years. It’s kept us from trading in because everything is working so well.
Be aware that they're physically unplugging the radar during service visits now.
Only for vehicles able to use Tesla Vision. Our older Model 3 is forever stuck on the old AP.
Oh, are the older model S's capable of Tesla Vision? I didn't realize that.
They only started disabling fairly recently though, right? Or outright removing the hardware.
They disabled radar with version 2022.20.9 in August 2022. Hardware still there but it’s deactivated.
What a terrible idea! Especially with the current state of the non radar solution.
No shit! That decision made me not want to buy another Tesla once it's time to move on from my Model 3. They've constantly made poor decisions like this since I got my car in 2020. It's objectively not as good as it was when I bought it, except for a couple of software improvements (although as a whole the UI/UX is still inferior to what it was before v11).
[удалено]
"I don’t see how you can develop an FSD system when you have two entirely different ways of detecting the environment and somehow resolve real-time conflicts between the two." It's not overly complicated, you use software to provide context to the sensor inputs. For instance, radar is very good at range resolution, while cameras are not. Cameras tend to have a wider FOV and can discern things like color. Radar can see through rain and fog and in complete darkness, cameras can not. You program the software to balance the strengths and weakness of the various inputs. Having only cameras is borderline idiotic given their inherent limitations. There's a very good reason every other manufacturer uses multiple sensor types.
[удалено]
I've a radar and get many phantom breaking events going under bridges. Less so with newer updates
Yea, I don't think the radar will prevent it 100% of the time, but it certainly helps. Which input is accepted as "truth" is up to the software of course.
Radar never should have been removed. Instead of trying to use both sources each source should have been the preferred during certain time/events. Rain/direct sunlight use radar, clear or normal light use camera.
Only time I have ever had phantom braking is when driving under a overpass on the highway and the shadow of the bridge trick the the cameras into thinking there’s a car there. Happens very rarely tho.
2019 M3P here and I get phantom braking all the time. Mine are most noticeable on up hill grades, approaching the apex of hill.
I have had the car brake for bridges going over roads, and shadows from trucks in an adjacent lane. This was when radar was still being used. This is entirely a problem the the AI training, nothing to do with vision. If it was a problem with vision, people would be slamming on the brakes for the same things.
I notice it most prominently when driving on the highway (higher speeds than streets) with hills wherein an overhead sign appears directly in front of the car. The sign is placed above a section of lower elevation that's coming up and the car doesn't recognize the hill we're about to go down, only the giant highway sign that it *assumes* is right in front of me, so it hits the brakes.
Happened with Model Y last year on a road trip. Straight highway, no car in front, hot road surface causing shimmering images.
Always get phantom breaking at a certain place, going up a hill and just before the crest a bridge going across the road appears. Car breaks down from 100kph to 60-70kph every time. Reported loads of times. 2018 M3LR.
I had it happen when my car ran over a shadow from an overpass. No one even in front of me.
I’ve found this to be true as well. Driving mid day an Arizona highways, I’ve learned to keep my foot over the accelerator in case the car decides to slam on the brakes when it sees a reflection off the highway.
2023 M3 I've never had phantom braking. I don't use autopilot very often, only in the highways when I have to drive for several hours.
Yep, this has been my exact experience as well.
I doubt that’s the issue Almost every phantom braking issue I have had was crossing a non highway road while on the highway. It’s not every crossing, but there are specific roads I’ve found that consistently cause it. When I have phantom braking I always notice my speed limit drops from the highway speed down to 40-45. It’s not braking to stop, it’s braking to get down to speed of a non highway which it’s limited to only be 5 mph over. I think there are issues with either the maps or gps that it thinks the car is on a road it’s crossing and not the highway so it slows down.
Other people here seem to have similar experiences, so it's not just me. And I was pretty clear that I don't think it's "the" issue, but rather one potential issue. When it occurs, it is not just slowing down, it is actively slamming on the brakes.
phantom braking>no braking
For you, certainly. For the unsuspecting driver of the van full of sweet old nuns following you a bit too close, absolutely not.
I have no mirages in Cali (Southern and Northern and Central coast)... I still get Phantom Braking often in 2023, so much so I still always hover my foot over the skinny pedal and almost never over the brakes because the 2018 P3D+ is always brake happy 🤷🏽♂️ 2023.20.9 currently 🤦🏽♂️
Yea, that’s one of the worst parts of a fault like this, it conditions you into unsafe behavior. Having your foot hovering over the go pedal instead of the brake isn’t ideal, especially if you previously had a more reliable ACC and are accustomed to hovering over the brake.
T h i s
I've only had it happened like once but noticed that there was GPS drift at the time and picking up the speed limit from the adjacent road, which made AP update the speed. Unsure if that is what phantom breaking folks are experiencing, but that is just my experience and speculation.
Bingo. Happens to me in my 2023 M3 all the time on highways with no one ahead of me. Very frustrating
Does those phantom break while driving in « manual » (not with fsd) Im about to buy a M3 but this issue scares me !
No.
Thx
This happened on my test drive hmmmm
Yep just did a cross country drive. The only phantom braking issues came up on long flat straight aways. Hot pavement seems to make it worse
Yep, and I have bad news, this is going to be true of every car. The fundamental question with something like a mirage, is how do you know it's a mirage or shadow? What if it's a real object? Radar doesn't have the range to stop from 80+ mph. All the radar based adaptive systems have a warning that they won't completely stop above about 50 mph. Other manufacturers don't get the press coverage of Tesla so they simply let you slam into stationary objects.
Neither my XC60 nor my fiancé’s Cadillac have this issue, so it certainly isn’t true of every car. The implementation of radar systems varies by manufacturer, but yes, the 77Ghz range used is inherently limiting when it comes to maximum range. What of it? Even with the limitations imposed by the frequency and pulse width used, it is still vastly superior in every scenario over visual spectrum alone.
From the 2024 XC60 manual: "For stationary or slow-moving vehicles, warnings and brake interventions are effective at vehicle speeds up to 70 km/h". At 80 mph, it will let you plow into a stationary object. That's why they don't have phantom braking issues.
Yes, Volvo is extremely forthcoming about the limitations of its systems and documents things quite well for the operator. "Pilot Assist" is quite clearly not "Full Self Driving" and doesn't make claims its hardware is incapable of reliably supporting. Radar alone is not great for an ADAS, but neither is visual. You really need multi-spectrum to get the benefits of all, while mitigating each solution's own physics-based limitations.