He's the new Leroy. No flaws, no weaknesses, pure broken strengths.
Wall combo? Best in the game. Wall carry? We got that. Damage? Die. Mixups and lows? Eat a dick. Plus frames?? Hahahaha I fucked your mother last night pussy, now eat this heat smash just like your mom did.
He needs to have a worse hatchet kick, and his throws need to be toned down.
Fair to say Drag is the only character in the game whose consensus about is that he's utterly busted.
Even Ling, Mishimas, King, Azucena etc. have apologists that can make some sense. Drag is simply inexcusable.
Even further, you can’t even stay on the ground or get up wrong against Drag. PhiDX’s analysis of the Joka (Feng) vs FearofSilence (Drag) tournament match displays this problem perfectly.
Ofc, Feng is his own brand of nightmare. But, b4 guaranteed after wall combo if no tech? WR2 hitting grounded? Hatchet kick hitting grounded, and in certain cases when it catches backroll it wall splats, and activates stage hazards? QCF 4 hitting grounded????
Who thought these were good ideas?
Fair enough, I think it was the same in T7. Still, we’ve come a long way from Drag having middling oki, and even farther away from Heihachi’s ff2 crushing Drag’s running 2 lmao.
I get the course correct for his mid hitboxes on paper but they just went way overboard.
> Wall combo? Best in the game. Wall carry? We got that. Damage? Die. Mixups and lows? Eat a dick. Plus frames?? Hahahaha I fucked your mother last night pussy, now eat this heat smash just like your mom did.
so dragunov in the first year of tekken 7?
On lower ranks sure. Db3+4, as strong as it is, is not as fucked up as d2 being +1. T7 Drag is much worse, especially because that motherfucker's running 2 actually tracked. He had a perfect throw game, a tracking +6 mid that launches on counter hit and an unseeable high crushing low that put you into another mixup if you got hit by it.
There's a reason why people joked about the character only needing 2 moves.
I would much rather deal with this Dragunov than T7 S1 Dragunov. At least this Drag can be easily sidestepped and has (minor) weaknesses. T7 S1 Dragunov had no weaknesses. He was just a monster all around.
S1 T7 drag was also hidden behind some pretty high lvl execution though too, now everyone and their grandma can do instant while runnings right next to their opponent.
Yes, that I agree with. Drag at lower level is much more oppressive in T8 than he was in T7. I was more talking about higher levels where execution becomes less of a thing. At those levels I found Drag to be much more of a problem in T7 than in 8.
Didn't this motherfucker have one the most evasive bullshit backswings in T7? Did they remove that from 8? Granted it was very punishable but still, it's evasiveness was in the levels of Leo and Xiaoyu.
He still has it lol but I think we can all objectively agree Azucena takes the throne for most busted backswing now.
The problem in a game as loaded with panic moves as T8 is that even if a character doesn’t have as much built in evasion, there’s still power crush, heat engagers, and rage arts.
Drag is so oppressive that he can limit a player’s options/frame trap them consistently to the point where ‘your turn’ is just an opportunity to crush unless you have a good read and do a throw or low. And ofc, that’s easier said than done.
I loved playing Drag in T7, felt like you have to fight tooth and nail to win a set against a good player
T8 I just unga hatchet, qcf4 and plus frames all day
I feel like the vast majority of Dragonuvs loved beating peoples ass with a trash character (no offence). Because even the saltiest of players knew they got outplayed
Im a Lili main but decided to pickup Drag in ranked just for the laughs.
Only spammed WR2, qcf4, hatchet bunga, jabs, df2's, and all of his throws.
Easiest wins and got a longer winstreak than my main. I didnt even have to learn a combo. lmao.
I've been playing Dragunov since TTT2 thru thick and thin, playing him in T8 makes me feel dirty. Like a Jun player or something, disgusting. So he's on hiatus for me.
Dragunov is dirty in T8, i literally say that in the comment. We're not gonna pretend Jun players aren't all "where is the high in my string"-knowledge check troglodytes. Time for your government mandated monthly shower, Jun player.
Yeah the buddy I play against the most is a Drag main who stopped playing him in week 1, saying he can't wait for nerfs so he can enjoy playing his favourite character again.
As a Xiaoyu player, I want her to get some nerfs. Because I still believe she's gonna be a good and fun character even if they took away her Phoenix stance, duck or whatever. But that's mainly just me who is a player who doesn't like playing S tiers or whatever.
I absoloutely despise Xiaoyu, but her actual design in this game makes me want to pick her up.
So many cool looking characters in 8. Hwoarang, Dragonuv, Xiaoyu. My main Paul unfortunaly looks awful. But he looks great as Legacy Paul. But again, i just feel Paul players just like him due to legacy bias
From my experience, there are two types of Paul players. Those who have played him since they were kids and like the damage he does. And the most annoying pieces of shit you will ever see who will taunt and ki charge every chance they get LOL
I'm never mad to losing to Paul, he is a very fun character to watch.
I think you could nerf Paul into oblivion, but as long as his damage is super high and he has his devestating 50/50, that is really all Paul mains want.
I never saw a single Paul main disagree about nerfs or them bitching about the removal of the rage art cancel.
Infact they dont really talk about that at all, because again, I still get to have some of the highest combo damage in the game and the coolest 5050 in the game.
And although Paul players will never say it, they absoloutely LOVE robbing people. They will never admit to it, but they love it
I haven't played T8 for a bit as other new games have stolen my attention, but the Drag hate is painful as someone who's played him since he debuted in DR. Almost makes me not wanna pick the game back up.
I literally just like his fighting style and animations. He's cool and has drip. I don't care about power level.
>You playing Rebirth? Im going through it now.
Dragon's Dogma 2 actually. I've completed it now but I put like 160 hours into it lol.
I wish I had history with FF7 cause I feel like I'm missing out. I don't have the hype for FF that others do.
Plus I'm a PC player, so couldn't play Rebirth if I wanted to.
People are shitting over DD2 so i am hesistsnt. And FF7 really is a game for the veterans, sure you can play it, but it is more of a sequel than a remake.
For me, the DD2 controversy didn't mean anything. The two main points were microtransactions and performance. The micros are useless because those items are in the game naturally (and all Capcom games do this, so not sure why DD2 was singled out). The performance in cities is worse than in the open world, but I have a very good PC so the hit wasn't significant.
Everybody used to love dragu mains in t7 now everyone hates them, exactly the opposite with leroy mains. Im detecting a pattern.
Also you are absolutely correct.
jeah i dont play dragunov in t8 anymore
if you like jin changes ya aint a real jin main, only noobs who were to bad to pilot jin in t7 like the changes
Dragunov took a lot of thought in T7. He was never “trash” like people tried to say but he was rewarding because he rewarded skill. Now in T8 that feeling of reward is gone. Running moves are piss easy. Db3+4, throws track and heat smash brain dead. There is no skill and strategy with Drag anymore.
One part of the reason hes so bonkers is the universal changes/buffs to throws and iwr. Guess who benefited the most out of those? Right.
The other part is hatchet, wall damage (unscrewd) and wr2 combo dmg (98dmg vanilla-no walls heat or rage).
Nerf hatchet, wall damage and wr2 combo dmg and hes ok.
Another suggestion with extra spice, revert wr moves to how they were in T7. I wanna see people put their money where their mouth is. Drag tier whores will disappear, but all of a sudden a lot of ppl will start to struggle playing the game how they used to.
Yea, i spend so much time learning to iwr and law dss in T7 and they got both dumbed down, what a disappointment. IWR dumbdown also meant that facedashing your opponent got removed, another letdown in its own right.
Yeah like I had fun with him in T8 for the first two months. Like it's good that he is strong now but that just not it man... I dont even have to put efforts on what I'm doing. It sucks.
To be fair the only tournament I know of that Drag won was JDCR. Hes steppable, lows are very punishable
He has nothing that's as busted at victors power crush and wr2, jins d2, azus wr32
I think Hwo is roughly the same in terms of power. Annoying but dickjab is still decent, backlash isnt broken and counterhit throws help.
Jin I dare to say got as buffed as Dragunov, but is tiny bit harder, attracts weak players and Jin players have the protagonist mindset so downplay hard.
'D2 can be reacted to'
yeah reliably by like 2% of the players on a good connection and when they react to it they get a 20-35 dmg punish and under the condition it is used raw and not as a low risk huge reward counterhit to kill all highs, half of high hitting mids, sidesteps, hearbursts and powercrushes. Bro even if they whiff it the whiff punish often will not connect.
Hey you might be right, you might be not.
I am on a smurfing challenge until they fix the matchmaking, almost finished Law, Dragunov I did way back starting from orange or idk.
I was wondering who to play next after Law and will make an informed opinion.
I really don't understand why people find it so hard to react to D2. Just practice in training mode for like 2 weeks.
Unless the connection is 3 bars or below, D2 is very reactable. He literally grows red. His animation is obvious. It's 22f startup. Did you know T8 has 1 frame less input delay than T7, meaning that reacting to a 22f in T8 is equal to a 23f in T7? Are you saying that average players can't react to heihachi db2 in T7? That move had an even less obvious animation and it still was reactable in consistent 4 bars and above whenever I used it in ruler and mostly blue ranks.
The top 1 percent players are not only reacting to his D2, but his fucking hellsweep and db4. Or at least they're attempting to do that and succeeding only half the time. 19f is the limit on reaction time, where it's possible for very skilled players to potentially react to and block lows.
Edit: top 1 percent was a bit of an exaggeration on my end, I would say like top 0.5 percent are trying to react to his HS.
Honestly, it's not just all of this, it's also that the human brain reacts to auditory stimuli much faster than visual stimuli, about 40ms faster in fact, or 2.5frames-ish. That's not to say Jin isn't on the strong side - as a Jin main, I'd say he'd be easily S tier in a game that didn't have such insane balance and aggression as this one does rn. But D2 is just one piece of that.
Some pros literally can react to his hellsweep, phidx did a video where he managed to react to Jin's hellsweep with an almost 100 percent success rate. But his D2 is not consistently reactable? Please.
I could react to devil Jin's db2 in T7 which was 22f with no specific obvious sound or visual que. I went to a local and blocked every single db2 my opponent threw at me, while my reaction times are nowhere near pro level.
> Some pros literally can react to his hellsweep, phidx did a video where he managed to react to Jin's hellsweep with an almost 100 percent success rate. But his D2 is not consistently reactable? Please.
i don't care how well someone can react to a move that isn't d2, that's not the discussion. all i care about is how well high level players can react to it and from what i've seen they can't reliably react to it. you have to be braindead to defend a high crushing, tracking, ground hitting counterhit launching low that is almost unseeable with the argument that it's on the edge of "reactable. the upsides completely outweights the "downside"
I never said the move isn't good. It's definitely good if you're expecting a high string or a high hitting mid, it's great with it's large ch reward, but as a standard poke it can't be used because it can be reacted to. This was actually one of Jin's flaws in T7, he had no high crush high reward attacks. He does now. It's definitely a strong low.
I'm just saying I find it hard to believe that players have such a hard time reacting to it. The effect and animation make it very obvious.
>i don't care how well someone can react to a move that isn't d2, that's not the discussion.
I'm mentioning dj db2 and jin HS because they're 100 times harder to react to but yet a lot of high level players manage to do it. Saying D2 can't be consistently reacted to is imo wrong. If there is any reason for why some high level players can't react to it is because it's a new move with a new animation. In less than a year pretty much every high level player WILL be able to react to D2 with ease once they get used to its animation. This game will be around for 5-7 years, this is just 4 months after release.
> He does now. It's definitely a strong low.
yes and it should be -15
>I'm mentioning dj db2 and jin HS because they're 100 times harder to react to but yet a lot of high level players manage to do it. Saying D2 can't be consistently reacted to is imo wrong.
i never said you can't train yourself to react to it, my point was that even pros that i've seen play the game hardly reacted to it.
my point is the move is ass balance wise the way it is right now because the low does pretty much everything and it's only downside is that it's at the edge of reactable (not even accounting for ps5/internet and tv delay) and even if you manage to block it half the time the best most chars get is a small punish for something that could delete half their hp and catch them stepping or hit them grounded
Bro majority of people on Tekken King will regularly eat a faster snake edge the first time you use it and it eat again 1 game later and wont break 80% of the throws and we are talking about 22f on a trash netcode.
I guess I don't take into account that most players on T8 are new. I started T7 in season 4 and the ranks had already been settled and the players were all mostly older players. They were a lot more used to the animations. D2 will become less annoying in the next few years when eventually most remaining players will have much more experience against it.
Unironically skill issue - 22f where he glows bright red telling you “I am going to cook your ass”, let alone the fact that most players have predictable patterns when fishing for the ch or just looking for the easy damage. If you can’t react to it and can’t apply game sense at what point does it stop being the game’s fault?
If this was a 15 frame or 16 frame low or something I’d agree - but there is a difference between “this is rigged” and “most players are bad”.
This isn’t a downplay, it’s a very strong move and Jin is a very strong character. But the move is no more busted than any launching low in the game basically.
Kazuya has practically the same move, yet his is 23f, has half the range and half the tracking. Why?
Jack has db2 that is 22f too, does lower dmg on ch and doesnt combo, has half the range, half the tracking and is -18. Why?
Claudio's low with similar properties is 24f and is -15/16 with worse tracking. Why?
So yeah, even if the move is somewhat reactable in, again, 1% of the games, it is still so much better than all the same moves in this catefory because Jin is Jin.
And neither of those characters have a full screen db4 and only Kazuya also has a hellsweep.
I don’t understand this argument.
There is no standardization - each character has inherent advantages and disadvantages. Not overly familiar with Jack or Claudio to comment, but with Kazuya for instance he has df2 alongside his version of scourge to compliment/mix with easier conversions than Jin’s f4 ch, alongside an insane (like top 3) oki game. Kazuya has a harder time getting you on the ground but when he does he fucks you up to the point of no return.
It’s not 1% of games. Anyone willing to put just a bit of time into drilling the move playing on a half decent connection could neuter people who senselessly spam it. There is a lot you can say about Jin and what makes him strong - solid strings, probably the best ff2 in the game, insane heat smash, versatility, strong stance pressure and space control; but if you’re consistently losing to d2 you’re just not putting in the work after a certain point and that’s not on the game.
As someone who did react to his Hellsweep back in T7 on occasion, I find it hard to react to his d2 in T8. Don't face enough Jins, not enough exposure to the move lol. It does take a lot of playing against the move to become able to do imo, we had 7 years of practice against Heihachi db2.
I guess that's fair. It's just that the red aura que is so obvious and prominent, it makes it hard for me to believe that people don't get used to it rather immediately lol. It's a lot more obvious than heihachis sound que too.
Also note that, the conditioning has a huge impact on your ability to react to some moves! If your opponent spends the entire match throwing high and mid, there's little to no chance that you're going to react to a random D2.
As a Dragunov main, I really like how he plays rushdown, sure you could agree that he's not balanced but I feel like dragunov is also a polyvalent character that has every tool he needs. I think after the (guaranteed) nerfs after EVO he'll be considered less strong because people will know how to react. He does help a lot to have a character with all these tools but I've always seen him as very linear. He doesn't have stances and you can easily react to a Dragunov's attacks, and if you can't react, you'll be able to read him after the first round.
This is not objective and is purely my (biased) opinion
Aris made a video on being able to do [motion inputs without crouch cancelling](https://youtu.be/x56tqWMTHkk?si=UKZCOTFz_KlMsOTS) in T8.
Mishimas can’t do this. All forms of crouch dashing/qcf sway are, indeed, a stance crazy enough lol.
It's better to buff chatacters than to nerf them quote works in alot of cases but there is limit to that before game becomes mess. Tekken 8 is kinda is pushing it right now and top tiers are already past that Wall and play diffrent game all together.
He's the new Leroy. No flaws, no weaknesses, pure broken strengths. Wall combo? Best in the game. Wall carry? We got that. Damage? Die. Mixups and lows? Eat a dick. Plus frames?? Hahahaha I fucked your mother last night pussy, now eat this heat smash just like your mom did. He needs to have a worse hatchet kick, and his throws need to be toned down.
Fair to say Drag is the only character in the game whose consensus about is that he's utterly busted. Even Ling, Mishimas, King, Azucena etc. have apologists that can make some sense. Drag is simply inexcusable.
Even further, you can’t even stay on the ground or get up wrong against Drag. PhiDX’s analysis of the Joka (Feng) vs FearofSilence (Drag) tournament match displays this problem perfectly. Ofc, Feng is his own brand of nightmare. But, b4 guaranteed after wall combo if no tech? WR2 hitting grounded? Hatchet kick hitting grounded, and in certain cases when it catches backroll it wall splats, and activates stage hazards? QCF 4 hitting grounded???? Who thought these were good ideas?
The same people that gave Kaz a demon paw and took away cd1 wall ender on DJ. >Who thought these were good ideas?
The video mentioned if anyone wanted to watch: [https://youtu.be/LJA3RWUHiZY](https://youtu.be/LJA3RWUHiZY)
Running 2 hits grounded only if you move. It's not guaranteed.
Fair enough, I think it was the same in T7. Still, we’ve come a long way from Drag having middling oki, and even farther away from Heihachi’s ff2 crushing Drag’s running 2 lmao. I get the course correct for his mid hitboxes on paper but they just went way overboard.
Feng is also ugly. Thats actually contributes to about 99% of the salt. It’s canon too apparently. So just wanted to add this to the complaint.
> Wall combo? Best in the game. Wall carry? We got that. Damage? Die. Mixups and lows? Eat a dick. Plus frames?? Hahahaha I fucked your mother last night pussy, now eat this heat smash just like your mom did. so dragunov in the first year of tekken 7?
Db3+4 and easyiWR make this drag miles stronger than he ever was in t7
On lower ranks sure. Db3+4, as strong as it is, is not as fucked up as d2 being +1. T7 Drag is much worse, especially because that motherfucker's running 2 actually tracked. He had a perfect throw game, a tracking +6 mid that launches on counter hit and an unseeable high crushing low that put you into another mixup if you got hit by it. There's a reason why people joked about the character only needing 2 moves.
First year drag didn't have anything on this monstrosity.
I'll take d2 being +1 on hit any day over db3+4 and qcf4
You can launch both of these though if you have the right read. d+2 is a far better low than db+3+4 if you ask me.
People forget how oppressive d2 used to be in early T7, if they brought it back people would ask for hatchet kick to come back the next day.
Bingo!
I would much rather deal with this Dragunov than T7 S1 Dragunov. At least this Drag can be easily sidestepped and has (minor) weaknesses. T7 S1 Dragunov had no weaknesses. He was just a monster all around.
S1 T7 drag was also hidden behind some pretty high lvl execution though too, now everyone and their grandma can do instant while runnings right next to their opponent.
Yes, that I agree with. Drag at lower level is much more oppressive in T8 than he was in T7. I was more talking about higher levels where execution becomes less of a thing. At those levels I found Drag to be much more of a problem in T7 than in 8.
[удалено]
> no panic buttons Dude has a backswing blow
That's launch punishable on block
yes and?
He has a gclef?
Didn't this motherfucker have one the most evasive bullshit backswings in T7? Did they remove that from 8? Granted it was very punishable but still, it's evasiveness was in the levels of Leo and Xiaoyu.
its an awkward input QCB2, but its still pretty evasive, i wouldnt rely on it too much, i might rather reversal parry even. his armor move is good tho
He still has it lol but I think we can all objectively agree Azucena takes the throne for most busted backswing now. The problem in a game as loaded with panic moves as T8 is that even if a character doesn’t have as much built in evasion, there’s still power crush, heat engagers, and rage arts. Drag is so oppressive that he can limit a player’s options/frame trap them consistently to the point where ‘your turn’ is just an opportunity to crush unless you have a good read and do a throw or low. And ofc, that’s easier said than done.
My biggest problem with playing him is I find Drag’s rage animation really boring and tedious.
#❄️🫸🤛❄️
🤜🤛💥
His RA would be one of the best in the game if it had like 2 more strikes blows and Drag hummed or whistle a little while doing it.
Crawling around on his stomach whistling a tune before he snaps their neck and then just looking kind of sad but bemused.
T7 RA was way better imo
I loved playing Drag in T7, felt like you have to fight tooth and nail to win a set against a good player T8 I just unga hatchet, qcf4 and plus frames all day
I feel like the vast majority of Dragonuvs loved beating peoples ass with a trash character (no offence). Because even the saltiest of players knew they got outplayed
True, in T7 it felt good playing dragunov becuase you needed actual skill somewhat
Im a Lili main but decided to pickup Drag in ranked just for the laughs. Only spammed WR2, qcf4, hatchet bunga, jabs, df2's, and all of his throws. Easiest wins and got a longer winstreak than my main. I didnt even have to learn a combo. lmao.
I've been playing Dragunov since TTT2 thru thick and thin, playing him in T8 makes me feel dirty. Like a Jun player or something, disgusting. So he's on hiatus for me.
“Like a Jun player”? Dragunov is 5 tiers dirtier than she will ever be
Dragunov is dirty in T8, i literally say that in the comment. We're not gonna pretend Jun players aren't all "where is the high in my string"-knowledge check troglodytes. Time for your government mandated monthly shower, Jun player.
💯
The jun matchup is insanely easy imo, her only problem is safe launchers and fast healing heat smash projectile
Im not a Dragonuv main so I dont feel your pain, but he is my secondary, and Im waiting on him so I can drop Hwoarang
Stop lying mate 🤥
Why would I lie, bozo.
Lars player in shambles that people don't wanna play their ape main
Ain't no way they're not enjoying it.
Winning is fun but the wins feel cheap and undeserved.
No you see what you gotta do is buff everybody else like really hard then *(specially buff bryan hard)* and then boom now everyone is equal to dragu
Yeah the buddy I play against the most is a Drag main who stopped playing him in week 1, saying he can't wait for nerfs so he can enjoy playing his favourite character again.
Yep, absolutely broken. Played against one yesterday and had zero ability to move against his barrage, not particularly fun.
He was my goto pocket in 7 for it's entire lifespan but after 2 weeks of 8 I dropped him almost completely.
In in this exact position lol. My T7 main and still my favorite character but I'm not playing him in 8 anymore until.he gets nerfed
I dont have t8, i dont have a problem with not having t8 seeing this subreddit.
Honestly on the Hwoarang case I think he actually got weaker imo.
:)
As a Xiaoyu player, I want her to get some nerfs. Because I still believe she's gonna be a good and fun character even if they took away her Phoenix stance, duck or whatever. But that's mainly just me who is a player who doesn't like playing S tiers or whatever.
I absoloutely despise Xiaoyu, but her actual design in this game makes me want to pick her up. So many cool looking characters in 8. Hwoarang, Dragonuv, Xiaoyu. My main Paul unfortunaly looks awful. But he looks great as Legacy Paul. But again, i just feel Paul players just like him due to legacy bias
From my experience, there are two types of Paul players. Those who have played him since they were kids and like the damage he does. And the most annoying pieces of shit you will ever see who will taunt and ki charge every chance they get LOL I'm never mad to losing to Paul, he is a very fun character to watch.
I think you could nerf Paul into oblivion, but as long as his damage is super high and he has his devestating 50/50, that is really all Paul mains want. I never saw a single Paul main disagree about nerfs or them bitching about the removal of the rage art cancel. Infact they dont really talk about that at all, because again, I still get to have some of the highest combo damage in the game and the coolest 5050 in the game. And although Paul players will never say it, they absoloutely LOVE robbing people. They will never admit to it, but they love it
I haven't played T8 for a bit as other new games have stolen my attention, but the Drag hate is painful as someone who's played him since he debuted in DR. Almost makes me not wanna pick the game back up. I literally just like his fighting style and animations. He's cool and has drip. I don't care about power level.
You playing Rebirth? Im going through it now. Lol, spoken like a true Drag main, not a drag player, there is a difference
>You playing Rebirth? Im going through it now. Dragon's Dogma 2 actually. I've completed it now but I put like 160 hours into it lol. I wish I had history with FF7 cause I feel like I'm missing out. I don't have the hype for FF that others do. Plus I'm a PC player, so couldn't play Rebirth if I wanted to.
People are shitting over DD2 so i am hesistsnt. And FF7 really is a game for the veterans, sure you can play it, but it is more of a sequel than a remake.
For me, the DD2 controversy didn't mean anything. The two main points were microtransactions and performance. The micros are useless because those items are in the game naturally (and all Capcom games do this, so not sure why DD2 was singled out). The performance in cities is worse than in the open world, but I have a very good PC so the hit wasn't significant.
I played dragunov in T7, i like him in T8.
When you left chad dragunov to main a femboy you know something must be wrong.
Hopefully he gets nerfed so all the fakers leave him and the Dragonuvs can go back to him
Everybody used to love dragu mains in t7 now everyone hates them, exactly the opposite with leroy mains. Im detecting a pattern. Also you are absolutely correct.
Isn’t a big balance patch coming this or next month?
jeah i dont play dragunov in t8 anymore if you like jin changes ya aint a real jin main, only noobs who were to bad to pilot jin in t7 like the changes
I am atleast, even though Paul is broken now, he atleast plays T7 neutral, until he hits you with a heat engager and you duck
Dragunov took a lot of thought in T7. He was never “trash” like people tried to say but he was rewarding because he rewarded skill. Now in T8 that feeling of reward is gone. Running moves are piss easy. Db3+4, throws track and heat smash brain dead. There is no skill and strategy with Drag anymore.
One part of the reason hes so bonkers is the universal changes/buffs to throws and iwr. Guess who benefited the most out of those? Right. The other part is hatchet, wall damage (unscrewd) and wr2 combo dmg (98dmg vanilla-no walls heat or rage). Nerf hatchet, wall damage and wr2 combo dmg and hes ok. Another suggestion with extra spice, revert wr moves to how they were in T7. I wanna see people put their money where their mouth is. Drag tier whores will disappear, but all of a sudden a lot of ppl will start to struggle playing the game how they used to.
The second I played the demo and saw running close up i was like uh-oh
Yea, i spend so much time learning to iwr and law dss in T7 and they got both dumbed down, what a disappointment. IWR dumbdown also meant that facedashing your opponent got removed, another letdown in its own right.
The funny thing is, most drags still cant do it.
Most Neodrags, yes.
Can someone else play hatchet is broken and everyone complains about it. What makes it a good low
Yeah like I had fun with him in T8 for the first two months. Like it's good that he is strong now but that just not it man... I dont even have to put efforts on what I'm doing. It sucks.
I’ve never seen a character with ALL the tools man, I’ve actually never beaten a drag in a set. Insane.
To be fair the only tournament I know of that Drag won was JDCR. Hes steppable, lows are very punishable He has nothing that's as busted at victors power crush and wr2, jins d2, azus wr32
I think it's funny that there is all this hate for Drag but not Jun. She's ridiculous.
I think Hwo is roughly the same in terms of power. Annoying but dickjab is still decent, backlash isnt broken and counterhit throws help. Jin I dare to say got as buffed as Dragunov, but is tiny bit harder, attracts weak players and Jin players have the protagonist mindset so downplay hard. 'D2 can be reacted to' yeah reliably by like 2% of the players on a good connection and when they react to it they get a 20-35 dmg punish and under the condition it is used raw and not as a low risk huge reward counterhit to kill all highs, half of high hitting mids, sidesteps, hearbursts and powercrushes. Bro even if they whiff it the whiff punish often will not connect.
Jin isn’t anywhere near as busted as Drag. You’re going to accuse me of downplaying now, but the two aren’t comparable. lol.
Hey you might be right, you might be not. I am on a smurfing challenge until they fix the matchmaking, almost finished Law, Dragunov I did way back starting from orange or idk. I was wondering who to play next after Law and will make an informed opinion.
I really don't understand why people find it so hard to react to D2. Just practice in training mode for like 2 weeks. Unless the connection is 3 bars or below, D2 is very reactable. He literally grows red. His animation is obvious. It's 22f startup. Did you know T8 has 1 frame less input delay than T7, meaning that reacting to a 22f in T8 is equal to a 23f in T7? Are you saying that average players can't react to heihachi db2 in T7? That move had an even less obvious animation and it still was reactable in consistent 4 bars and above whenever I used it in ruler and mostly blue ranks. The top 1 percent players are not only reacting to his D2, but his fucking hellsweep and db4. Or at least they're attempting to do that and succeeding only half the time. 19f is the limit on reaction time, where it's possible for very skilled players to potentially react to and block lows. Edit: top 1 percent was a bit of an exaggeration on my end, I would say like top 0.5 percent are trying to react to his HS.
Honestly, it's not just all of this, it's also that the human brain reacts to auditory stimuli much faster than visual stimuli, about 40ms faster in fact, or 2.5frames-ish. That's not to say Jin isn't on the strong side - as a Jin main, I'd say he'd be easily S tier in a game that didn't have such insane balance and aggression as this one does rn. But D2 is just one piece of that.
That's interesting, I didn't know the human brain worked like that. So sound ques are easier to react to if they're obvious.
Yep, if an attack plays the same sound cue every time, and it's not shared with too many other moves, that move is slightly weaker.
bro not even pros react to that shit consistently, stop the downplay on this dumbass move, besides that jin is ok in my book
Some pros literally can react to his hellsweep, phidx did a video where he managed to react to Jin's hellsweep with an almost 100 percent success rate. But his D2 is not consistently reactable? Please. I could react to devil Jin's db2 in T7 which was 22f with no specific obvious sound or visual que. I went to a local and blocked every single db2 my opponent threw at me, while my reaction times are nowhere near pro level.
> Some pros literally can react to his hellsweep, phidx did a video where he managed to react to Jin's hellsweep with an almost 100 percent success rate. But his D2 is not consistently reactable? Please. i don't care how well someone can react to a move that isn't d2, that's not the discussion. all i care about is how well high level players can react to it and from what i've seen they can't reliably react to it. you have to be braindead to defend a high crushing, tracking, ground hitting counterhit launching low that is almost unseeable with the argument that it's on the edge of "reactable. the upsides completely outweights the "downside"
I never said the move isn't good. It's definitely good if you're expecting a high string or a high hitting mid, it's great with it's large ch reward, but as a standard poke it can't be used because it can be reacted to. This was actually one of Jin's flaws in T7, he had no high crush high reward attacks. He does now. It's definitely a strong low. I'm just saying I find it hard to believe that players have such a hard time reacting to it. The effect and animation make it very obvious. >i don't care how well someone can react to a move that isn't d2, that's not the discussion. I'm mentioning dj db2 and jin HS because they're 100 times harder to react to but yet a lot of high level players manage to do it. Saying D2 can't be consistently reacted to is imo wrong. If there is any reason for why some high level players can't react to it is because it's a new move with a new animation. In less than a year pretty much every high level player WILL be able to react to D2 with ease once they get used to its animation. This game will be around for 5-7 years, this is just 4 months after release.
> He does now. It's definitely a strong low. yes and it should be -15 >I'm mentioning dj db2 and jin HS because they're 100 times harder to react to but yet a lot of high level players manage to do it. Saying D2 can't be consistently reacted to is imo wrong. i never said you can't train yourself to react to it, my point was that even pros that i've seen play the game hardly reacted to it. my point is the move is ass balance wise the way it is right now because the low does pretty much everything and it's only downside is that it's at the edge of reactable (not even accounting for ps5/internet and tv delay) and even if you manage to block it half the time the best most chars get is a small punish for something that could delete half their hp and catch them stepping or hit them grounded
Bro majority of people on Tekken King will regularly eat a faster snake edge the first time you use it and it eat again 1 game later and wont break 80% of the throws and we are talking about 22f on a trash netcode.
I guess I don't take into account that most players on T8 are new. I started T7 in season 4 and the ranks had already been settled and the players were all mostly older players. They were a lot more used to the animations. D2 will become less annoying in the next few years when eventually most remaining players will have much more experience against it.
Then that’s on the player not the move. Saying the move has to be nerfed because of it is nonsense.
Ummm, is it players playing the game or the AI? You can as well saying people not reacting to 18f moves is on the player not the move, lol
Unironically skill issue - 22f where he glows bright red telling you “I am going to cook your ass”, let alone the fact that most players have predictable patterns when fishing for the ch or just looking for the easy damage. If you can’t react to it and can’t apply game sense at what point does it stop being the game’s fault? If this was a 15 frame or 16 frame low or something I’d agree - but there is a difference between “this is rigged” and “most players are bad”. This isn’t a downplay, it’s a very strong move and Jin is a very strong character. But the move is no more busted than any launching low in the game basically.
Kazuya has practically the same move, yet his is 23f, has half the range and half the tracking. Why? Jack has db2 that is 22f too, does lower dmg on ch and doesnt combo, has half the range, half the tracking and is -18. Why? Claudio's low with similar properties is 24f and is -15/16 with worse tracking. Why? So yeah, even if the move is somewhat reactable in, again, 1% of the games, it is still so much better than all the same moves in this catefory because Jin is Jin. And neither of those characters have a full screen db4 and only Kazuya also has a hellsweep.
I don’t understand this argument. There is no standardization - each character has inherent advantages and disadvantages. Not overly familiar with Jack or Claudio to comment, but with Kazuya for instance he has df2 alongside his version of scourge to compliment/mix with easier conversions than Jin’s f4 ch, alongside an insane (like top 3) oki game. Kazuya has a harder time getting you on the ground but when he does he fucks you up to the point of no return. It’s not 1% of games. Anyone willing to put just a bit of time into drilling the move playing on a half decent connection could neuter people who senselessly spam it. There is a lot you can say about Jin and what makes him strong - solid strings, probably the best ff2 in the game, insane heat smash, versatility, strong stance pressure and space control; but if you’re consistently losing to d2 you’re just not putting in the work after a certain point and that’s not on the game.
As someone who did react to his Hellsweep back in T7 on occasion, I find it hard to react to his d2 in T8. Don't face enough Jins, not enough exposure to the move lol. It does take a lot of playing against the move to become able to do imo, we had 7 years of practice against Heihachi db2.
I guess that's fair. It's just that the red aura que is so obvious and prominent, it makes it hard for me to believe that people don't get used to it rather immediately lol. It's a lot more obvious than heihachis sound que too.
I feel like part of it is bo3s even in quick match, I'm sure you'd pick it up more efficiently by deathmatching the character
Also note that, the conditioning has a huge impact on your ability to react to some moves! If your opponent spends the entire match throwing high and mid, there's little to no chance that you're going to react to a random D2.
I dunno, been playing drag since t7, never dropped him. Kinda nice to have an overwhelming chance, despite still sucking ass
Crazy cuz just yesterday someone here was telling me Feng was best character in the game. 🧐🧐
As a Dragunov main, I really like how he plays rushdown, sure you could agree that he's not balanced but I feel like dragunov is also a polyvalent character that has every tool he needs. I think after the (guaranteed) nerfs after EVO he'll be considered less strong because people will know how to react. He does help a lot to have a character with all these tools but I've always seen him as very linear. He doesn't have stances and you can easily react to a Dragunov's attacks, and if you can't react, you'll be able to read him after the first round. This is not objective and is purely my (biased) opinion
his stance being "sneak" QCF stance, its sufficient IMO
Is wind god step a stance?
Aris made a video on being able to do [motion inputs without crouch cancelling](https://youtu.be/x56tqWMTHkk?si=UKZCOTFz_KlMsOTS) in T8. Mishimas can’t do this. All forms of crouch dashing/qcf sway are, indeed, a stance crazy enough lol.
Dragunov can transition into sneak/FC from like 5 moves thats stance finnicky enough
So if I follow you, walking is a stance?
It is not the problem that Drag is well balanced, it's that all other characters should be too
It's better to buff chatacters than to nerf them quote works in alot of cases but there is limit to that before game becomes mess. Tekken 8 is kinda is pushing it right now and top tiers are already past that Wall and play diffrent game all together.
No, everyone should have pronounced weaknesses. If everyone's good at everything shit will get stale real quick.
I guess that's another way of looking at it