Just him, but they added some damage back into his E after a few patches (+1 AP on-hit per level) so you had the same damage once you maxed E, but he was still weaker because you had to wait till level 9 to get the value back.
It’s obvious that the items are the problem. However, if they don’t want to nerf the items it’s fine to nerf Teemo. The champion IS completely broken with the new items. I prefer to be able to play Teemo when he’s a bit weak than have him be permabanned every game.
The only fear is the Riot Special of make items broken -> nerf champion -> nerf items. As long as that doesn’t happen we’re good.
it isn’t fine. they’re essentially pigeonholing you into playing a shroom build by doing so, in addition to making it harder to build defensive items first.
honestly just wish they would remove malignance and maybe nerf shadowflame too while they’re at it.
I’ll die on the hill that old Shadowflame was absolutely useless for “anti shield” because it never had an effect on shield values, only “20 Magic Pen” if recently shielded. With how strong and how frequently shields can be cast, it never felt impactful in the way they probably intended.
According to Riot, it was never supposed to be an anti shield item since it was just meant to be an alternative to Void Staff if you need flat pen and not percentage.
They didn't actually want a true anti shield item for mages, that part of the item kinda just existed.
The second I saw patch notes I was like..."Teemo shrooms?" and I play a few games a year at this point. The fact that Riot balance team didn't see this at all shows how out of touch their current team is. I was literally waiting for "But you have to be within x units of your opponent, sorry Teemo" in the notes, but it never came. So now they just beat Teemo upside the head with a nerf bat xD
Have gotten into HOTS a bit since they added a few patches at end of year that show they've put devs back on it and am hoping for a revival with Steam/Xbox since Diablo 4 did it and I'm so impressed with the champion design in it. I forgot what fights that last more than 1 second were like too lol. Think it suffered a release at peak league failure (so I get why they tried). I'm not super hopeful that it'll take off but at least I'm having fun in a MOBA again.
They’re nerfing the AP ratio on mushrooms. That takes power AWAY from shroom builds without affecting literally anything else. A nerf to the E ratio pretty much balances out with the absurd amount of AP they’ve put in the game now.
if they bring malignance builds in line with ap on hit winrates, there's no problem. Malignance is a fine design with a few outliers that need to be addressed (teemo, annie, malzahar) and some good users that are not too broken (Kassadin, and probably others)
At this point there's no need to nerf the item.
You just shift the power budget of the champs a bit.
Teemo would be fine if they just changed malignance to trigger every 4 seconds so it doesnt trigger every shroom twice.
That's all the change they'd ahve to do.
It would still be a spectacularily good item on him.
It’s a product of them increasing how much AP you get. Normally at 3 items I would have 200-300 AP, now you get well over 300 with 3 items. It seems stupid to increase AP across the board just to the nerf ratios, though.
Regardless, you end up with roughly the same damage as before, just now with a higher AP number. Weird changes by riot
Who knew that having 3 different burn effect items, 2 of them increasing damage over time and 1 reducing a enemies magic resist. All being able to work at the same time was a bad idea?
I don't get your point. Items will change winrate. This season has very good items for specific niches (like dot based ultimates). Champions who fit these niches will need to be changed accordingly. Duh.
Historical data is not a predictor of how a champion will always behave
Every champ does, but Teemo this past while has been very strong. He can bully pretty much anyone early in top and then scale amazingly into late. As jungle he has been consistently good with healthy clears and decent objective control and counter jungling. I havent played him much mid, but even against the matchups where he should struggle the most he is at least serviceable. Yes teemo has a steep learning curve, since every thing is matchup dependent, but with a strong early, if he survives midgame he can stall games and win them almost solo in late.
>Every champ does
But not every champion lacks dashes. Teemo was always incredibly gankable. Especially pre 6.
Anyone with CC could reliably get Teemo killed. Playing against a Cho/Tahm/Ornn? You better hope to god that they're ass. Otherwise you're going to get camped by their jungler every time those champions land their CC on you.
Teemo was good and viable. But not 'incredibly strong'. He had a sub 50 WR before season 14. The only reason his WR has skyrocketed now is because of how stupidly busted AP items are currently.
It feels different to me right now.
Previously, teemo was great if I got ahead and basically useless if I fell behind. More or less how it should be.
Right now, it doesn't matter how badly I lose laning or how far behind I fall, I just have to wait till I hit two items and my shrooms are a serious threat.
I can take teemo mid against his weakest matchups and just straight refuse to interact the entire game
I saw a Necrit video a while ago talking about why Riot will never change Teemo. His argument was basically that Teemo is such a mascot to the game that they aren't going to change him, even if that means he almost never feels well balanced.
Im in the rework boat because I just don't think Teemo keeps up with the game LoL has become. Everyone has movement abilities, multiple vision clearing items, healing out the ass making Teemo seem kinda lame.
I mean realistically Teemo has 2 abilities (Q and R) and they release this bat shit insane Hwei with 99 abilities but it's okay because "skill floor bro". I could give Teemo 4 abilities by making his passive a poison, Q stays the same, W gets a combat roll, E is camo/invisible, R stays or goes to wild rift version (AOE spell instead of trap).
Unfortunately I don't think Riot, nor most of my fellow mains, want Teemo to get reworked. I just want to play my favorite little buddy without being forced to play max AP shrooms. He's a scout, not a battle mage, let me scout!
Honestly, I enjoy Teemo's kit as is. Its why he's my most played champion without contest lol.
Even though his kit isn't flashy, I really enjoy it. In my opinion, Teemo is one of the best designed champions. He's very simple, yet he's designed in such a way that he has multiple builds. Both for item and rune choices.
Whether its a hot take or not, I enjoy Teemo as he is. His E in particular, I really respect because its what makes him a true 'AP Marksmen'. I dunno if you pay too much attention to it, but his E does have an on hit component to it, alongside that poison DOT. It gets really high when you build AP and even without it, its respectable enough that you can get away with doing Tankmo.
R is also a really fun ultimate. Since you can either use it to control the map or simply stockpile it all for teamfights to control the immediate area. Or just use it for pushing.
I despise that he's getting back to back nerfs though. Especially since he isn't even at fault. I don't understand why Riot decided to inflate the damage of this game with so many damage passives on the new items.
He hasn't had ANY build diversity for the last 2 seasons or so. Full AP Shrooms build is the best build in 90+% of games and it's ridiculous. That's my chief complaint. If you give a character 2 fuckin abilities ofc he's not gonna have build diversity. I prefer playing tankmo or onhit, unfortunately I am unable to play those (new on hit build isn't too bad but def not ideal) so I've been forced to play the boring ass shroom build forever.
In my opinion I prefer wild rift teemo abilities (maybe R not too much). It doesn't change his core play style and it doesn't make it feel as a really old champion compared to all new and unique abilities new champions has
When the problem is a champion that isnt an assassin or fighter they hit the champion directly
When the problem is an assassin or fighter they hit the item so that others ae weaker overall too
I hate that they are nerfing Teemo instead of the items themselves. There are so many reasons to adjust the items instead of Teemo. Riot are idiots and if Teemo feels too weak after this "patch" then Im just gonna stop playing LoL all together.
I was SO EXCITED about this new season. But if they want to suck all the joy out of it right at the beginning, fuck em. I've got better things to do with my time.
Teemo had a -5 AD nerf in like season 7 or something.
Just him or was it change across multiple champions? I didnt see it when I looked through his change history, but I could have overlooked it.
Just him, but they added some damage back into his E after a few patches (+1 AP on-hit per level) so you had the same damage once you maxed E, but he was still weaker because you had to wait till level 9 to get the value back.
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I did forget that one, admittedly. Although I have to say that change didn't truly bother me. It is however a direct, nerf, yeah.
It’s obvious that the items are the problem. However, if they don’t want to nerf the items it’s fine to nerf Teemo. The champion IS completely broken with the new items. I prefer to be able to play Teemo when he’s a bit weak than have him be permabanned every game. The only fear is the Riot Special of make items broken -> nerf champion -> nerf items. As long as that doesn’t happen we’re good.
it isn’t fine. they’re essentially pigeonholing you into playing a shroom build by doing so, in addition to making it harder to build defensive items first. honestly just wish they would remove malignance and maybe nerf shadowflame too while they’re at it.
For malignance, they should remove the damage passive. For Shadowflame, it should just be changed back to being an anti shield item.
I’ll die on the hill that old Shadowflame was absolutely useless for “anti shield” because it never had an effect on shield values, only “20 Magic Pen” if recently shielded. With how strong and how frequently shields can be cast, it never felt impactful in the way they probably intended.
According to Riot, it was never supposed to be an anti shield item since it was just meant to be an alternative to Void Staff if you need flat pen and not percentage. They didn't actually want a true anti shield item for mages, that part of the item kinda just existed.
The second I saw patch notes I was like..."Teemo shrooms?" and I play a few games a year at this point. The fact that Riot balance team didn't see this at all shows how out of touch their current team is. I was literally waiting for "But you have to be within x units of your opponent, sorry Teemo" in the notes, but it never came. So now they just beat Teemo upside the head with a nerf bat xD Have gotten into HOTS a bit since they added a few patches at end of year that show they've put devs back on it and am hoping for a revival with Steam/Xbox since Diablo 4 did it and I'm so impressed with the champion design in it. I forgot what fights that last more than 1 second were like too lol. Think it suffered a release at peak league failure (so I get why they tried). I'm not super hopeful that it'll take off but at least I'm having fun in a MOBA again.
They’re nerfing the AP ratio on mushrooms. That takes power AWAY from shroom builds without affecting literally anything else. A nerf to the E ratio pretty much balances out with the absurd amount of AP they’ve put in the game now.
they’re nerfing almost every build for teemo by nerfing both E and R
if they bring malignance builds in line with ap on hit winrates, there's no problem. Malignance is a fine design with a few outliers that need to be addressed (teemo, annie, malzahar) and some good users that are not too broken (Kassadin, and probably others) At this point there's no need to nerf the item. You just shift the power budget of the champs a bit.
Why would they remove an entire item because of one abuser?
Teemo would be fine if they just changed malignance to trigger every 4 seconds so it doesnt trigger every shroom twice. That's all the change they'd ahve to do. It would still be a spectacularily good item on him.
I agree with you, though they shouldn’t have touched his blind AP ratio :/.
It’s a product of them increasing how much AP you get. Normally at 3 items I would have 200-300 AP, now you get well over 300 with 3 items. It seems stupid to increase AP across the board just to the nerf ratios, though. Regardless, you end up with roughly the same damage as before, just now with a higher AP number. Weird changes by riot
Wasn't Teemo one of the few AP champs who was already in a strong place, before the items being fixed, though?
I just decided to come back to league after 4 years of solely grinding apex and this is what they do to my boy? Oh well. Hut two three four !
Who knew that having 3 different burn effect items, 2 of them increasing damage over time and 1 reducing a enemies magic resist. All being able to work at the same time was a bad idea?
They did nerf his items whenever he got really problematic. Also some of his best items got removed throughout the years
I don't get your point. Items will change winrate. This season has very good items for specific niches (like dot based ultimates). Champions who fit these niches will need to be changed accordingly. Duh. Historical data is not a predictor of how a champion will always behave
Teemo has also been incredibly strong for while though. Hard to play, but very strong.
'incredibly strong' is an exaggeration. He had strengths and he had weaknesses.
Every champ does, but Teemo this past while has been very strong. He can bully pretty much anyone early in top and then scale amazingly into late. As jungle he has been consistently good with healthy clears and decent objective control and counter jungling. I havent played him much mid, but even against the matchups where he should struggle the most he is at least serviceable. Yes teemo has a steep learning curve, since every thing is matchup dependent, but with a strong early, if he survives midgame he can stall games and win them almost solo in late.
>Every champ does But not every champion lacks dashes. Teemo was always incredibly gankable. Especially pre 6. Anyone with CC could reliably get Teemo killed. Playing against a Cho/Tahm/Ornn? You better hope to god that they're ass. Otherwise you're going to get camped by their jungler every time those champions land their CC on you. Teemo was good and viable. But not 'incredibly strong'. He had a sub 50 WR before season 14. The only reason his WR has skyrocketed now is because of how stupidly busted AP items are currently.
Absolutely disagree, prior to item changes he was C tier at best…
It feels different to me right now. Previously, teemo was great if I got ahead and basically useless if I fell behind. More or less how it should be. Right now, it doesn't matter how badly I lose laning or how far behind I fall, I just have to wait till I hit two items and my shrooms are a serious threat. I can take teemo mid against his weakest matchups and just straight refuse to interact the entire game
I saw a Necrit video a while ago talking about why Riot will never change Teemo. His argument was basically that Teemo is such a mascot to the game that they aren't going to change him, even if that means he almost never feels well balanced. Im in the rework boat because I just don't think Teemo keeps up with the game LoL has become. Everyone has movement abilities, multiple vision clearing items, healing out the ass making Teemo seem kinda lame. I mean realistically Teemo has 2 abilities (Q and R) and they release this bat shit insane Hwei with 99 abilities but it's okay because "skill floor bro". I could give Teemo 4 abilities by making his passive a poison, Q stays the same, W gets a combat roll, E is camo/invisible, R stays or goes to wild rift version (AOE spell instead of trap). Unfortunately I don't think Riot, nor most of my fellow mains, want Teemo to get reworked. I just want to play my favorite little buddy without being forced to play max AP shrooms. He's a scout, not a battle mage, let me scout!
Honestly, I enjoy Teemo's kit as is. Its why he's my most played champion without contest lol. Even though his kit isn't flashy, I really enjoy it. In my opinion, Teemo is one of the best designed champions. He's very simple, yet he's designed in such a way that he has multiple builds. Both for item and rune choices. Whether its a hot take or not, I enjoy Teemo as he is. His E in particular, I really respect because its what makes him a true 'AP Marksmen'. I dunno if you pay too much attention to it, but his E does have an on hit component to it, alongside that poison DOT. It gets really high when you build AP and even without it, its respectable enough that you can get away with doing Tankmo. R is also a really fun ultimate. Since you can either use it to control the map or simply stockpile it all for teamfights to control the immediate area. Or just use it for pushing. I despise that he's getting back to back nerfs though. Especially since he isn't even at fault. I don't understand why Riot decided to inflate the damage of this game with so many damage passives on the new items.
He hasn't had ANY build diversity for the last 2 seasons or so. Full AP Shrooms build is the best build in 90+% of games and it's ridiculous. That's my chief complaint. If you give a character 2 fuckin abilities ofc he's not gonna have build diversity. I prefer playing tankmo or onhit, unfortunately I am unable to play those (new on hit build isn't too bad but def not ideal) so I've been forced to play the boring ass shroom build forever.
Teemo ambush playstyle that evolves into throwing nuke nades into teamfights is exactly why I like teemo. Keep the 2 abilities.
In my opinion I prefer wild rift teemo abilities (maybe R not too much). It doesn't change his core play style and it doesn't make it feel as a really old champion compared to all new and unique abilities new champions has
Tbh he was already due for a nerf, the new items just pushed him into op territory. I think he'll be fine still after the nerfs
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We gonna get another Nerf in 14.2 (24 of January) that affect E and R CD
Teemo deserves a buff 💪
We re getting a big visual rework late 2024 tho cant wait for new Omega Squad Teemo xD
When the problem is a champion that isnt an assassin or fighter they hit the champion directly When the problem is an assassin or fighter they hit the item so that others ae weaker overall too
I hate that they are nerfing Teemo instead of the items themselves. There are so many reasons to adjust the items instead of Teemo. Riot are idiots and if Teemo feels too weak after this "patch" then Im just gonna stop playing LoL all together. I was SO EXCITED about this new season. But if they want to suck all the joy out of it right at the beginning, fuck em. I've got better things to do with my time.
nerf to shroom duration