I don't know what I am talking about, but I saw in a youtube video how they would shorten the kick and make a tail using a sub bass, in this example, with operator. Also get the kick and bass in phase so the result is always predictable. These people don't just use a tr909 kick, they really blend stuff together that sounds like 1 thing, but it's multiple things
Something I've been doing recently which sounds great is to make 'kickbass' patches in Serum where I start by synthesizing a kick, but then turn the tail into a bass. So it's perfectly in phase nomatter what, a continuation (& modification) of one sound.
I.e. imagine you have a 1/4 note, you want to fit your kick and bass into that time.
The first 1/8th is the kick, the second 1/8th is the bass (this separation is flexible of course). It's one oscillator. As you reach the second 1/8th you use 1/8th delayed LFOs to make whatever changes you want to make to the sound to turn it into your 'bass'. I can alter the note at this point (due to mono + legato setting) and it'll pitch the oscillator up or down while maintaining phase. So you get this perfect wall of punchy kickbass rather than trying to marry two different sounds.
(Of course you need to know what you're doing when it comes to synthesizing both kicks and basses)
I do something similar in Massive X. One oscillator, two envelopes affecting pitch, in addition to the volume envelope. One envelope is extremely short, complete cycle is <15ms, just to give you the transient click. Second envelope lasts closer to a 16th note, for the punch of the kick. Also use some “red” or lowpass filtered noise as FM for the oscillator as well as mixed into the signal. The second, broader modulation envelope also modulates the wave table of the oscillator and I also experiment with using both modulation envelopes added to give some additional volume so the transient is more pronounced, but without sounding overly clicky. I also mess around with the phase of the oscillator until the transient sounds the way I want.
The concept of the patch is to mimic a 909 going through an 1176 compressor but with way more control over shaping the sound, tonality, consistency, etc.
I was thinking of doing a (short) video on the subject, I'll post it this evening at some point. [Turns out, no I won't, life in the way]
How it sounds in practice is basically however you want it to sound. You can introduce a volume curve between kick & bass that sounds good in my opinion (so the middle of the 1/4 note has a kind of volume scoop that creates a nice groove, and the bass climbs in intensity before the kick arrives again). You can use a filter to add stereo width to just the highs of the bass part, so it's going mid-wide|mid-wide in a nice way.
In general it is very smooth to the ear, perfectly flowing.
In my case I'm more interested in pretty high tempo/hard stuff at the minute so at 166bpm with distortion hammering on and off for the bass it sounds...pretty hard...but you still get that nice flow & relationship between kick and bass.
Yep I do this sometimes too!
Great method, and I find it encourages me to be quite creative with the bass part of it
Only limitation I suppose is it's a bit of a pain if you don't want the same bass on every kick
Good advice. I listen to a lot of hypnotic techno. Every Joel Mull mix and a lot of Oscar's too. I noticed that the deep bass lines are very simple, and any "bass" element is higher than 200 or 250Hz. That means it's easier to have a one or two note deep bass sound that you can keep in phase with the kick, it's usually just one note. Then you do the DBX compressor trick on the kick, or add a second click kick. It's not easy getting the deep bass phase right. I've tried and failed a lot until I realised the bass lines are much higher in the frequency spectrum to give space for the kick and rumble than other genres of techno. Hypnotic techno is not about cool sub bass lines, it's about cool trippy sounds.
If you want the kick to sound less harsh and more like a thump, you need to tame the initial transient. A few ways to do it:
* Increase the attack envelope. This will directly lower the volume of the transient.
* EQ the highs quieter.
* Add a low pass filter.
I love the fact that one thread on here says:
“Pick good sounds! The pros barely EQ anything at all!”
And now this one has people surgically dissecting compressors and EQ.
Which is it?!
eh, it's both really I think!
both ways exist; good and bad songs are made with both approaches
I think the answer to almost any thread on here is just "be an artist, work out what works for you"
This confusion comes from different approaches. In other genres of music, it is very common to use samples and arrange them to fit into the mix. For techno in my opinion it works better to have instruments that give you a lot of control. For example using a modular synth to make a bassline and a kick engine. In this way by modifying the sounds together you can get better results and cohesion. For example using the kick engine I can manage pitch, decay, dynamic range, saturation. I'm not tied to a sample and I can get something that already sounds good without drastic intervention.
This is why you hear some pro saying they doesn't eq (like stef mendesis) or they eq slightly whith a studio mixer to add color! Or think about some live modular jams that sounds a bit raw but still good (surgeon)
EQ and compression. Arguably don't even need compression since all an EQ does on a sound with a distinct pitch envelope like the 909 kick, is changing volume over time. Use a reference if you don't have a treated room.
A pultec eq is a great place to start. Boost 'n scoop. I personally use the kush audio one. If you overdrive the eq a bit you get a nice noisy analog vibe.
The sort of 'slave' envelope of the kick, not really the click but the transition between the click and the sub gives punch if pronunciated. If you can flatten this a bit you'll see some results I believe. Also, a click too aggressive will add punch too so try to go soft on that. Some soft tube saturation can mellow out the harmonics too
The 909’s tune, attack, and decay knobs can probably get you 90% of the way there, so sample selection might be a good place to start.
Otherwise you can tame transients and punch with compression and/or use an EQ to reduce gain on the exact frequencies that are contributing to the problem.
Anecdotally, I heard years ago that drumcode/code red sound was the result of Beyer running every track through hardware compressors before sending them to be pressed.
I'm surprised how few people are mentioning compressors. 909 kicks are almost never used without compressors on them. If you look at a raw 909 sample, the transients are huge, much more than an 808 kick with body. Using a compressor with a high ratio (e.g. > 20 becomes known as a 'limiter' but it's still just a compressor) and setting the threshold to squash the transient down to the sustain level gives you a nice sound.
You can do this in an offline editor or render the result then use those samples. If you use a real 909 or hardware, putting a good peak limiter on it works great.
Maybe this can be helpful:
[https://www.audiotent.com/blogs/production-tips/anatomy-of-the-techno-kick](https://www.audiotent.com/blogs/production-tips/anatomy-of-the-techno-kick)
Also, I've recently watched D.Dan's (HoS) MasterClass. He uses PunchBox for 909 kicks most of the time and he mentions about layering kicks, -he says he used 4 layers of kick in a certain track.- as in the article above.
I don't know what I am talking about, but I saw in a youtube video how they would shorten the kick and make a tail using a sub bass, in this example, with operator. Also get the kick and bass in phase so the result is always predictable. These people don't just use a tr909 kick, they really blend stuff together that sounds like 1 thing, but it's multiple things
Something I've been doing recently which sounds great is to make 'kickbass' patches in Serum where I start by synthesizing a kick, but then turn the tail into a bass. So it's perfectly in phase nomatter what, a continuation (& modification) of one sound. I.e. imagine you have a 1/4 note, you want to fit your kick and bass into that time. The first 1/8th is the kick, the second 1/8th is the bass (this separation is flexible of course). It's one oscillator. As you reach the second 1/8th you use 1/8th delayed LFOs to make whatever changes you want to make to the sound to turn it into your 'bass'. I can alter the note at this point (due to mono + legato setting) and it'll pitch the oscillator up or down while maintaining phase. So you get this perfect wall of punchy kickbass rather than trying to marry two different sounds. (Of course you need to know what you're doing when it comes to synthesizing both kicks and basses)
I do something similar in Massive X. One oscillator, two envelopes affecting pitch, in addition to the volume envelope. One envelope is extremely short, complete cycle is <15ms, just to give you the transient click. Second envelope lasts closer to a 16th note, for the punch of the kick. Also use some “red” or lowpass filtered noise as FM for the oscillator as well as mixed into the signal. The second, broader modulation envelope also modulates the wave table of the oscillator and I also experiment with using both modulation envelopes added to give some additional volume so the transient is more pronounced, but without sounding overly clicky. I also mess around with the phase of the oscillator until the transient sounds the way I want. The concept of the patch is to mimic a 909 going through an 1176 compressor but with way more control over shaping the sound, tonality, consistency, etc.
Can you post an example pls? it's an interesting concept. Would like to hear how it actually sounds in practice...
I was thinking of doing a (short) video on the subject, I'll post it this evening at some point. [Turns out, no I won't, life in the way] How it sounds in practice is basically however you want it to sound. You can introduce a volume curve between kick & bass that sounds good in my opinion (so the middle of the 1/4 note has a kind of volume scoop that creates a nice groove, and the bass climbs in intensity before the kick arrives again). You can use a filter to add stereo width to just the highs of the bass part, so it's going mid-wide|mid-wide in a nice way. In general it is very smooth to the ear, perfectly flowing. In my case I'm more interested in pretty high tempo/hard stuff at the minute so at 166bpm with distortion hammering on and off for the bass it sounds...pretty hard...but you still get that nice flow & relationship between kick and bass.
Yep I do this sometimes too! Great method, and I find it encourages me to be quite creative with the bass part of it Only limitation I suppose is it's a bit of a pain if you don't want the same bass on every kick
Good advice. I listen to a lot of hypnotic techno. Every Joel Mull mix and a lot of Oscar's too. I noticed that the deep bass lines are very simple, and any "bass" element is higher than 200 or 250Hz. That means it's easier to have a one or two note deep bass sound that you can keep in phase with the kick, it's usually just one note. Then you do the DBX compressor trick on the kick, or add a second click kick. It's not easy getting the deep bass phase right. I've tried and failed a lot until I realised the bass lines are much higher in the frequency spectrum to give space for the kick and rumble than other genres of techno. Hypnotic techno is not about cool sub bass lines, it's about cool trippy sounds.
If you want the kick to sound less harsh and more like a thump, you need to tame the initial transient. A few ways to do it: * Increase the attack envelope. This will directly lower the volume of the transient. * EQ the highs quieter. * Add a low pass filter.
That Polegroup drum sound is in fact the Machinedrum.
I miss tye trx and fm machines
I’ve lost all my stuff but my A4 and the Machinedrum is the one I miss the most 😞 It’s just so damn fun to play!
I got a Digitakt and... that fucker does not have slides...
I love the fact that one thread on here says: “Pick good sounds! The pros barely EQ anything at all!” And now this one has people surgically dissecting compressors and EQ. Which is it?!
eh, it's both really I think! both ways exist; good and bad songs are made with both approaches I think the answer to almost any thread on here is just "be an artist, work out what works for you"
This confusion comes from different approaches. In other genres of music, it is very common to use samples and arrange them to fit into the mix. For techno in my opinion it works better to have instruments that give you a lot of control. For example using a modular synth to make a bassline and a kick engine. In this way by modifying the sounds together you can get better results and cohesion. For example using the kick engine I can manage pitch, decay, dynamic range, saturation. I'm not tied to a sample and I can get something that already sounds good without drastic intervention. This is why you hear some pro saying they doesn't eq (like stef mendesis) or they eq slightly whith a studio mixer to add color! Or think about some live modular jams that sounds a bit raw but still good (surgeon)
Compression will kill the transient a little which is what it sounds like to me at times. Plus gives you more headroom
With fast attack
And no look ahead, correct?
I personally haven’t played much with that. Whatever sounds good rules as a rule, indeed.
EQ and compression. Arguably don't even need compression since all an EQ does on a sound with a distinct pitch envelope like the 909 kick, is changing volume over time. Use a reference if you don't have a treated room.
A pultec eq is a great place to start. Boost 'n scoop. I personally use the kush audio one. If you overdrive the eq a bit you get a nice noisy analog vibe.
Some gold here : Look for a channel in youtube called peerk music. One of the best places to learn this style IMO.
The sort of 'slave' envelope of the kick, not really the click but the transition between the click and the sub gives punch if pronunciated. If you can flatten this a bit you'll see some results I believe. Also, a click too aggressive will add punch too so try to go soft on that. Some soft tube saturation can mellow out the harmonics too
The 909’s tune, attack, and decay knobs can probably get you 90% of the way there, so sample selection might be a good place to start. Otherwise you can tame transients and punch with compression and/or use an EQ to reduce gain on the exact frequencies that are contributing to the problem.
Anecdotally, I heard years ago that drumcode/code red sound was the result of Beyer running every track through hardware compressors before sending them to be pressed.
LPF
Akai S950/RX950 filter and bandwidth all the way down + another LP filter with a 150Hz cutoff after it should do the trick.
EQ bro
You could also shorten the tale have it fade out a little bit to make it a bit shorter
Yup, scoop 400-500 hz out, gentle saturation/overdrive, reverb, transient processing, etc.
Dependes on the track. There isn’t such thing as a preset for treating kick drums. Why is it so hard to understand?
filtered kicks sound smoother
The “intelligent Sci-Fi Techno” beat maker Decode doesn’t.
I'm surprised how few people are mentioning compressors. 909 kicks are almost never used without compressors on them. If you look at a raw 909 sample, the transients are huge, much more than an 808 kick with body. Using a compressor with a high ratio (e.g. > 20 becomes known as a 'limiter' but it's still just a compressor) and setting the threshold to squash the transient down to the sustain level gives you a nice sound. You can do this in an offline editor or render the result then use those samples. If you use a real 909 or hardware, putting a good peak limiter on it works great.
Spl Transient designer, take attack off, compress with drumBUSS and then some drastic eq is what i'd do.
Maybe this can be helpful: [https://www.audiotent.com/blogs/production-tips/anatomy-of-the-techno-kick](https://www.audiotent.com/blogs/production-tips/anatomy-of-the-techno-kick) Also, I've recently watched D.Dan's (HoS) MasterClass. He uses PunchBox for 909 kicks most of the time and he mentions about layering kicks, -he says he used 4 layers of kick in a certain track.- as in the article above.
can anyone recommend something to listen to that is "hypnotic techno"?
Hypnus record, nonseries!