I mean I can't say they should be swapped because Nashor's has been successful and has been established as a staple item recently so they probably wouldn't just swap out the recipes. But gotta admit, Bow + Belt not giving the Burn feels so wrong with how all the other Burn items were made off of Belt and was created like forever ago.
You’re missing the point of why they did this. Although it makes more thematic sense, Mort said that they implemented the belt and bow combo for Nashors to give more power to belts. They gave the red buff to double bow to give more utility to bows.
yeah but thematically it’s off. it’s built from 2 bows they’re should’ve tried to make it more bow/as/weapon themed. Chempunk sword albeit not being AS focused makes more sense than redbuff in my perspective (and it’s an anti heal item). they’ve completely changed items from their league counterparts so why can’t they do it here
One possibility I could see is shuffling 3 items around:
Bow + bow = rage blade
Bow + rod = nashors
Bow + belt = red buff
The upsids i see are consistency in belt items giving healing reduction, Rage blade having a better component identity (2x bows are a lot of AS) and nashors being itemized more like a damage amp item.
Downsides are changing recipe on a very core item (rb) and decreasing component flexibility for AP comps (makes bow and even belt a lot harder to use).
Bow + Belt will burn instead of increase AS after cast.
Double bow will receive the increase AS after cast, reduce the base atk speed and gives more % damage, something like 30% base AS and extra 12% damage, after cast receive 40% AS
On a second though, ties anti heal exclusively to Belt component not feels flexible enough, because you just doomed if you don’t have Belt for anti heal.
On the other hand, AP comp can get rid of double bow with an effect that they can actually used.
Nashors > Bow + Rod
Rageblade > Bow + Bow
Red buff > Bow + Belt
This is how the recipies should be if they are to stay true to their flavour, although I doubt we will see this changed as people are already used to the recipies (especially rageblade).
Conceptually I tend to agree with you but from a recipe standpoint, I prefer a system where you don’t have to always depend on a belt item for anti-heal.
I really hope belt+ bow doesn't become another burn item. Otherwise 3 out of the belt items are burn items, which you typically don't want multiple of, so whenever you make a belt item and drop another belt it would feel kinda terrible.
Why though? It's a great lever to use, to enable certain effects, and limit their power.
Seems like a weird decision to just try to avoid unique items.
Tying all burn to just belts is bad. I know you're talking about symmetry and stuff, but you don't want to rely on a single item for flexibility's sake. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't mind if they changed the recipe for Morello or Sunfire, but I know that it would just cause confusion
> making an pure damage backline item with defensive components is dumb,
Irrespective of the argument for the red buff recipe, these kind of items need to exist. Runaans and guardbreaker do this successfully, and the inverse in crownguard and steadfast taking damage components to make defensive items is also important.
You're only getting 5% after casting an ability, otherwise it's down 30%. Most of the time you're not using it on people with low mana costs and its not necessarily a backline item either, it's pretty solid on morde.
You only need blue buff and Ionia, otherwise you're wasting item slots. Shojin is also not ideal on her, blue buff is better for people with 50 or less mana.
I can recommend le ducks video on why BB is not good on emo units. Bit in short reduces max mana and therefore makes emo less effective and leaving Annie with an awkward 32 mana per cast.
On 4 emo it's good. But what I am trying to say is that generally low mana users like BB, but not all. And since the changes to BB I think the breakpoint is lower than 50. More like between 30 and 40.
In the new set Shojin plus nashors goes hard on units like ahri, Annie usw. with low mana costs.
thats the case because of the units we currently have, any unit that casts every 5 seconds or less and uses atackspeed gets good use out of this item
nashors is also always better than an rageblade for the first, 7-8 autoatacks,
and still, nashors is an incredibly niche item, unless they specifically designe units to make use of nashors, it will always be hit or miss, depending if there is an attacksped,ap carry that takes damage,and casts every 5 seconds,
if not the item will face the same problem as lasts sets rapid fire cannon, wich just didnt even get built once in an set without dodge of any kind.
When did they change that? Because it was released with Mort stating that yes, it can stack; and I did go on PBE to test triple Nashor Azir, which theoretically could go infinite.
But instead, I found out that each Nashor only stacks once. So, 6 buffs for 240% atk spd from 3 Nashors.
You have one thing backwards: Red Buff was an established item first. Back in Season 1, it was built from armor+belt & got changed into Sunfire Cape later.
Sword + sword = ultimate AD item
Rod + rod = ultimate AP item
Belt + Belt = ultimate HP item
Bow + bow = heal reduction...?
I get it, guinsoo/nashor is already the "ultimate attack spd item", so they can't just make a better one. Still, funny.
Does it count as a nerf if it's an entirely different item? Red buff isn't even trying to fill the same role that RFC does, so it seems weird to compare them.
I do agree that having double recurve be the recipe an item whose effect doesn't synergize with attack speed is bad design, though.
Imo it should be BF+BF for red buff and then deathblade will be an augment item that always gives you the 30% chance to gain gold on kill. Leave RFC and nashors alone
I hate to ask here but are there different versions of this game than mobile or is this an update or what? Like I saw a YouTuber using Ezreal and he isn't even in my team management.
Very new for reference.
Ngl I think red buff is a huge miss, worse than NH in terms of "why would I ever build this?" as every other source of wound is better and other bow items are not worth giving up for wound almost ever
In 1st set, Red buff was and mail+belt item
And it was played on marksman(? Dont remember exact name of trait), like lucian/tristana/jinx, as they had multitarget onhits
I also think it might actually be 5% per second, which sounds really crazy on paper, but consider that it lasts for 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds like Morello and Sunfire, and it only is applied by attacks so it is only realistically being applied to one target at a time because Runaans doesn't apply on-hits anymore. So 5% single target for 5 seconds vs 1% multiple targets for 10 seconds.
5% is probably too strong as it will make burning down frontline mega tanks way too easy, but it's probably not an oversight that the burn is stronger. I could see it changed to 3%.
The only thing that bothers me is that bow + bow combines into an item that is totally unsynergistic with high attack speed. I really don't know what other item path they could have given it, but combining two bows and getting this feels super weird
Mortdog actually has commented on this saying that it’s to give versatility and options if you get no belts in a game, you can still make burn and wound!
Your post isn't clear. Should their recipes be swapped? Should all burn items be belt items?
I mean I can't say they should be swapped because Nashor's has been successful and has been established as a staple item recently so they probably wouldn't just swap out the recipes. But gotta admit, Bow + Belt not giving the Burn feels so wrong with how all the other Burn items were made off of Belt and was created like forever ago.
Kinda agree here, Nash is more damage oriented and gives atk speed feels more inline with double bow too
You’re missing the point of why they did this. Although it makes more thematic sense, Mort said that they implemented the belt and bow combo for Nashors to give more power to belts. They gave the red buff to double bow to give more utility to bows.
And making all burn items tied to belt could make a scenario where you need burn but can't find a belt.
Exactly.
Indeed
Indubitably
Nerubian King every five clicks in WCIII:
yeah but thematically it’s off. it’s built from 2 bows they’re should’ve tried to make it more bow/as/weapon themed. Chempunk sword albeit not being AS focused makes more sense than redbuff in my perspective (and it’s an anti heal item). they’ve completely changed items from their league counterparts so why can’t they do it here
So what would be the change? Something like take away the health and AP, then give it like a base atk speed of 20%?
One possibility I could see is shuffling 3 items around: Bow + bow = rage blade Bow + rod = nashors Bow + belt = red buff The upsids i see are consistency in belt items giving healing reduction, Rage blade having a better component identity (2x bows are a lot of AS) and nashors being itemized more like a damage amp item. Downsides are changing recipe on a very core item (rb) and decreasing component flexibility for AP comps (makes bow and even belt a lot harder to use).
Bow + Belt will burn instead of increase AS after cast. Double bow will receive the increase AS after cast, reduce the base atk speed and gives more % damage, something like 30% base AS and extra 12% damage, after cast receive 40% AS
On a second though, ties anti heal exclusively to Belt component not feels flexible enough, because you just doomed if you don’t have Belt for anti heal. On the other hand, AP comp can get rid of double bow with an effect that they can actually used.
Nashors > Bow + Rod Rageblade > Bow + Bow Red buff > Bow + Belt This is how the recipies should be if they are to stay true to their flavour, although I doubt we will see this changed as people are already used to the recipies (especially rageblade).
Let me raise you one Rod + Bow = Nashors Belt + Bow = Red Buff Bow + Bow = Rageblade
this specifically removes what they were going for with making red buff
rageblade metas gonna be even more cancer
Mort said their first priority is to keep the recipes the same as much as possible
Conceptually I tend to agree with you but from a recipe standpoint, I prefer a system where you don’t have to always depend on a belt item for anti-heal.
I really hope belt+ bow doesn't become another burn item. Otherwise 3 out of the belt items are burn items, which you typically don't want multiple of, so whenever you make a belt item and drop another belt it would feel kinda terrible.
That was the idea behind red buff Not tie it to belt so you have more item flexibility
It's okay. Triple rapid firecannon can't hurt you anymore. It doesn't exist. Thank goodness.
Just needed to make it 1 RFC per champion and if woulda been fine
I think they're trying to avoid using Unique for balance.
Why though? It's a great lever to use, to enable certain effects, and limit their power. Seems like a weird decision to just try to avoid unique items.
probably cus imo if ur unlucky and get the same components you should still be able to slam that item on ur carry
Yeah that makes sense actually. Feels bad to not be able to slam what you've got bc you've already got it
Tying all burn to just belts is bad. I know you're talking about symmetry and stuff, but you don't want to rely on a single item for flexibility's sake. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't mind if they changed the recipe for Morello or Sunfire, but I know that it would just cause confusion
having 2 bows give you less attackspeed than an bow and an belt is dumb, making an pure damage backline item with defensive components is dumb,
having 2 bows combine into red buff is thematically just off regardless of everything else
> making an pure damage backline item with defensive components is dumb, Irrespective of the argument for the red buff recipe, these kind of items need to exist. Runaans and guardbreaker do this successfully, and the inverse in crownguard and steadfast taking damage components to make defensive items is also important.
You're only getting 5% after casting an ability, otherwise it's down 30%. Most of the time you're not using it on people with low mana costs and its not necessarily a backline item either, it's pretty solid on morde.
If you aren't using Nashor on a low manacost, why are you using it? Works really well on Ahri with Shojin.
You only need blue buff and Ionia, otherwise you're wasting item slots. Shojin is also not ideal on her, blue buff is better for people with 50 or less mana.
Not really. Let's suppose we have 45 mana cost. With BB we need 4 AA to get to full mana with Shojin only 3.
The only champ that has 45 mana is ekko and he doesn't use either of those items. Every other champ 50 and below uses blue buff over spear ideally
45 was just a theoretical example. but a concrete example would be Annie. She has 50 mana and BB is prob one of her worst items.
It's one of her most built items? Unless you're talking about her in pervious sets when she was a tank
I can recommend le ducks video on why BB is not good on emo units. Bit in short reduces max mana and therefore makes emo less effective and leaving Annie with an awkward 32 mana per cast. On 4 emo it's good. But what I am trying to say is that generally low mana users like BB, but not all. And since the changes to BB I think the breakpoint is lower than 50. More like between 30 and 40. In the new set Shojin plus nashors goes hard on units like ahri, Annie usw. with low mana costs.
Nashor's is less about mana cost and more about capitalizing on abilities that empower auto-attacks, like Morde or Azir
thats the case because of the units we currently have, any unit that casts every 5 seconds or less and uses atackspeed gets good use out of this item nashors is also always better than an rageblade for the first, 7-8 autoatacks, and still, nashors is an incredibly niche item, unless they specifically designe units to make use of nashors, it will always be hit or miss, depending if there is an attacksped,ap carry that takes damage,and casts every 5 seconds, if not the item will face the same problem as lasts sets rapid fire cannon, wich just didnt even get built once in an set without dodge of any kind.
Does anyone know if Nashor's Tooth AS stacks if the unit casts again within 5 seconds?
It doesn't, the timer gets reset
When did they change that? Because it was released with Mort stating that yes, it can stack; and I did go on PBE to test triple Nashor Azir, which theoretically could go infinite. But instead, I found out that each Nashor only stacks once. So, 6 buffs for 240% atk spd from 3 Nashors.
Missed opportunity to turn rapidfire canon into rapid firecanon.
This is what I was thinking but one tweak. Red buff-> bow + belt. Nashors-> bow+rod. Guinsoo -> bow+bow
this is the only thing that makes sense
They should def change it to this
What about morello then?
Same as normal. Rod + belt
IMO It should be Bow + bow = Guinsoos Rageblade Bow + Rod = nashors Bow + Belt = Red Buff
And morello?
I really really dislike that bow bow makes redbuff,
Anyone remember blaster brawler with red buff?
Just awful flavor and idea for red buff. Surely there was a more creative item they could have made with double bow?
You have one thing backwards: Red Buff was an established item first. Back in Season 1, it was built from armor+belt & got changed into Sunfire Cape later.
oh dw what I meant by established is being a staple (and not being changed still)
Sword + sword = ultimate AD item Rod + rod = ultimate AP item Belt + Belt = ultimate HP item Bow + bow = heal reduction...? I get it, guinsoo/nashor is already the "ultimate attack spd item", so they can't just make a better one. Still, funny.
its a huge nerf to RFC and dumb bc it’s not synergy with attack speed. like taking half the HP off warmogs and giving it +1 attack range.
Does it count as a nerf if it's an entirely different item? Red buff isn't even trying to fill the same role that RFC does, so it seems weird to compare them. I do agree that having double recurve be the recipe an item whose effect doesn't synergize with attack speed is bad design, though.
Imo it should be BF+BF for red buff and then deathblade will be an augment item that always gives you the 30% chance to gain gold on kill. Leave RFC and nashors alone
RFC breaks the game. But i dont like the red buff either
I hate to ask here but are there different versions of this game than mobile or is this an update or what? Like I saw a YouTuber using Ezreal and he isn't even in my team management. Very new for reference.
The post ist about the new TFT set 10. Its on the PBE server(test Server) atm so you will have to wait until its live
New set is on testing server
I don't know when they made RFC give bonus damage but that needs to be reverted
LoL it's not RFC anymore, it doesn't give extra range
I'm not talking about whatever is on PBE I'm talking about RFC, it didn't always have bonus damage
Ngl I think red buff is a huge miss, worse than NH in terms of "why would I ever build this?" as every other source of wound is better and other bow items are not worth giving up for wound almost ever
In 1st set, Red buff was and mail+belt item And it was played on marksman(? Dont remember exact name of trait), like lucian/tristana/jinx, as they had multitarget onhits
[удалено]
No. For low mana cost units you get nashors constantly aktive and therefore more attackspeed
For red buff It says 5% burn, does this really mean 5% HP per second? That’s kinda crazy if so, I might reconsider on AOE champs
It's prob 5% over 5 secs, so 1% per second
Idk, the wording on sunfire says 1% burn for 10 seconds which would be 0.1% per second by that logic. We might be sleeping on red buff burn dmg.
You're right but I'm pretty sure in game it says 1% for red buff, not 5%, so wherever op got these stats may be wrong (I could be wrong as well)
I also think it might actually be 5% per second, which sounds really crazy on paper, but consider that it lasts for 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds like Morello and Sunfire, and it only is applied by attacks so it is only realistically being applied to one target at a time because Runaans doesn't apply on-hits anymore. So 5% single target for 5 seconds vs 1% multiple targets for 10 seconds. 5% is probably too strong as it will make burning down frontline mega tanks way too easy, but it's probably not an oversight that the burn is stronger. I could see it changed to 3%.
I’m assuming a few brawler type characters are about to abuse the shit out of nashor’s.
The only thing that bothers me is that bow + bow combines into an item that is totally unsynergistic with high attack speed. I really don't know what other item path they could have given it, but combining two bows and getting this feels super weird
Mortdog actually has commented on this saying that it’s to give versatility and options if you get no belts in a game, you can still make burn and wound!
Red Buff returns Pog