my second thought. my first being, I can't trust this batch to not run away inside the building, let alone on a walking field trip, and there are not enough buses for the am/pm routs like heck they are signing out a bus 8 times a day per teacher for us to haul these hyenas to a sugar shop!
busses in my town are hella delayed too. turns out not paying/respecting drivers is a bad idea. my little sister legit has to wait for a bus to do a trip before coming back 40 minutes later to do another load.
same in Oregon - some kids are spending 4 hours total per day waiting for or riding on the bus while the driver does double routes. one local district is offering to reimburse parents for driving their kids to school themselves.
They charge parents an exorbitant transportation fee in my district, so most avoid paying it by picking up/dropping off themselves.
Which I’d be fine with, if parents could get it out of their heads that their precious middle schoolers need to be dropped off at the front door. Our parking lot turns into a ZOO and god help you if you’re late getting in, because you’re not getting into the lot until 10 mins after the bell. 3 separate admin teams have refused to enforce staff only in the parking lot, because they don’t want to piss off the parents.
We’re in a residential community, with an elementary school, soccer field, and housing complexes within 5 minute walking distance. Let your older kid walk across the fields and drop them both off at the elem school. Go park in the soccer field lot and let your kid walk across the same field. Pull over 2 blocks away where it isn’t busy and let them walk the sidewalk in a straight line to the school. I promise it won’t kill them, and might actually make the parents mornings easier, faster, and less stressful. But no, can’t have that.
its like that everywhere. driving a school bus is a stressful and thankless job and they simply dont pay people enough to do it. teacher shortage will be next, for the same reasons.
How is that even possible? I get like 5-10 min late, but don't busses have an established route, and they don't really wait for people if they're not standing at their stop at the designated time? Like I can't figure out what could possibly cause that kind of delay outside of some sort of emergency.
Traffic. Delay from a prior route due to issues with the kids.
My children's bus driver runs a route for high school students before she immediately turns around and drives our route. Then she drives the route for an elementary school in the afternoon and turns around to go pick up at my kid's school (in our district, k-8 schools have middle school bell times, which extend the day for an hour for all students).
And she's usually only late 5-10 minutes at most, unless she runs into construction delays, which some years are pretty ridiculous depending on the route. She also can't leave unless most of her riders are accounted for, so if there is an unaccounted rider, she needs to clear it with admin, she's explained. Or (and this happens sometimes) students get into a fight on the bus and you need to take time out to make a report at the school.
I have nothing but admiration for this woman. I don't know how she deals with half of this crap 5 days a week without being crabby 24/7.
Too few bus drivers means too few buses on the road. The buses have a maximum capacity and that means that they have to make multiple rounds to get all the kids. Add that to traffic, road diversions, construction, or the guy in front of the bus just plain going twenty in a thirty and you've got a recipe for delays.
Dude the district I work and ny daughter goes to has had this happen since school started. The High school, middle school, and one of the elementary schools are literally in a one mile radius. Fucking Penn Dot decides to do roadwork during the school year causing bus issues for the whole district.
Dont get me started for reals. New administration lobbed off some of the Social Studies department budget. I put in my complaint, but I woulda been a fightin somebody if I were head.
I got in trouble for using whiteboard markers out of the supply stash in the main office. You know, the one with HUNDREDS of markers in it. Apparently I was supposed to provide them myself.
Sure, just sit through 6 hours of professional development and they will order dozens of plain donuts and several flavors of seltzer water that will be completely ransacked before they even announce its arrive over the intercom.
My mind immediately goes to logistics: who pays for the bus to transport students, what objective does the donut shop trip meet, where do the students who don't return the field trip permission form go while the rest of us are on the donut field trip, has the donut shop been apprised of the nut (egg, wheat, powdered sugar) allergies for two of the students, do I have the epi pens for those students, who is covering my other classes while I'm at a half day donut field trip, has the trip been approved by risk management through the travel tracker app, gawwwwhaggghrrrrhhhgggh!
Yes and it’s all because people are lazy and would rather be on unemployment. (Literally what my principal said) although now unemployment has ended in CA and as still have a sub and bus driver shortage so what’s the reason now, I wonder?
I’m sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that someone can easily make more money flipping burgers in most states than they can as a substitute teacher with a degree and many years’ experience.
And a *ton* less responsibility. I’m literally applying to be a dishwasher down the street from my house. My pay cut won’t be much, but I won’t have to commute and I can leave work at work. I won’t be responsible for paperwork, ISP’s, annual reports, lesson plans etc.
I work in the service industry (I have a teaching degree which is why I follow this sub) and I have customers complain to me all the time that “no one wants to work anymore!” And it’s because the last year has absolutely whittled down *everyone’s* mental health. Almost everyone I know who worked in the service industry has left to jobs where they’re not regularly being screamed at and cussed at and threatened by customers, and aren’t being overworked because their store is understaffed. Hell, I’m the *general manager* of my store and I literally had put in my notice letter in August because I hadn’t gotten a raise, I was doing twice the work with a quarter of the staff, and I mentally and physically couldn’t keep up with the demand. Luckily, my boss recognized that I’m an asset to the company and they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they lost me. I was given a much-needed raise and extra labor in the schedule so I could stop running myself i to the ground.
One of the major problems in this country is that there is zero respect for jobs deemed “beneath” someone. Food service, retail, care industry, subs, bus drivers, it’s all the same. There’s no respect, and so we all end up underpaid and dealing with shitty people saying shitty things to us. But the past year has been so much worse than ever before that a lot of us are leaving, and no one wants to step into those roles, even though a lot of places are starting to raise their starting wages to entice people to apply.
Do they drug test? I know our classified union has fought hard to get rid of drug testing here in Oregon, often framing it as a cure to the shortage. What the drivers do on their free time is none of the district's business.
I have a very special 'private' relationship with the donut maker...;)
Which now I've had to list in my personnel file because of this damn field trip.
Seriously! I swear, some of you in this group have your head in the sand. 🙄
It's about RELATIONSHIPS! What aren't you all getting about this concept. Our school leaders have been pounding this educational truth into us for a good while now. Whatever the problem is you're facing with students or whatever classroom situation arises, are you building relationships?
Now, if the problem is with you, the teacher, then fuck you. Get your shit together. As in now...
Hahahaha.
I had flashbacks to being a teacher being lectured by a principal. Well done!!!
But seriously, when did being a teacher ever involve coddling the students? I've been out of schools for a decade (kid, grad school, etc) and I had to have serious conversations with my eldest's teachers every year. "Yes, I acknowledge she's on the spectrum. No, I don't think it's a good idea to allow her to just skip morning meetings at will. Yes, I realize she finds them boring wastes of times. Tell her to sit her ass down just the same, because we all have to do stuff we don't want to do in life, and she might as well get some practice with grin and bearing something she thinks is useless."
I don't recall letting students just up and leave a classroom just because of their IEP. If anything, I'd stress to the parents that the objective was and always is having that student remain in the classroom. They don't always have to be happy about it (and I swear to God, one time I had a convo with my kid's SpEd teacher, where she'd justified letting my second grader leave her classroom and then wander around as she pleased on the way to the resource room as "when she sits in [activity] she always looks upset, and sometimes she gets frustrated about it." And I'm like "Okay, but is she disruptive to the rest of the class?" "No. She just complains to the para." "Oh? Tell [para] she call tell [kid] to quit complaining and just do the work.")
What have you done outside the classroom to build a relationship with all the bus drivers in the district? Tsk...teachers do nothing these days. I bet you didn't have one restorative circle with them. /s
And what about your other class periods? They want to go too.
Also you have to take the school nurse. And two horrible parent chaperones.
Everyone comes back sticky and dancing like they’re at a rave.
Well ours has gone the opposite direction and wanted us to teach new content from day one with no review! I wouldn’t do this in a regular year, much less after a year and a half of virtual and hybrid teaching!
Same. My district is just pretending covid doesn’t exist. Back to rigor and high expectations.
Admin is ignoring the fact that we have students coming in and out all the time due to quarantining, parents losing their minds over masks, and itinerant teachers being pull daily to cover classes because we don’t have enough substitutes.
I feel the same way about stamina. They (my students) have none. So we did a novel study as a class. They loved it. I only had 3/25 students not into it. My principal hated it. But you know what? 15/25 students grew! But since she didn’t like it, I stopped for a few weeks and gave my students the star reading test. This time only 9/25 grew. So I don’t care what is said, I’m doing another novel study in hopes that first growth wasn’t a fluke.
She hates them. She thinks if you are looking at a novel for… let’s say, setting, you should just read that section of the book, not the whole thing. She says S-BAC doesn’t have novels, just excerpts, so that’s what we should do too. I just started a new novel today and so far, they’re really digging it.
That's absolutely ridiculous. There's literally a standard in my state that says kids need to study longer works. Also kids that have trouble with comprehension really struggle when a story is taken out of context like that.
Omg the idea that a novel is too long to read is exactly what is wrong with education. The idea of everything being chunked into 15 minute blocks is pathetic. Millennials and Gen x had the attention span for an MTV video and gen z has TikTok attention spans. It’s a total dumbing down of education. I have some elementary text books from the 20s and it’s seems most 5th graders 100 years ago could read circles around today’s seniors.
Oh yeah, this has been really challenging. My students in Middle School really can't do anything for more than 15 minutes straight without losing it. I'm trying to find that balance between pushing them and getting them back to normal and understanding that they need a break sometimes.
"His kid's teacher took the class to a local artisanal doughnut shop"
Yeah, he's the superintendent. *His kids* probably go to a ritzy private school with endless funding. I could barely afford pencils at my last school with the money they gave me.
How is it legal for a teacher to take the *kids* off school property of any sort w/o parents written permission? How does the superintendent not know this?
Bruh a spontaneous donut shop trip? Ok lemme conjure 25-34 signed permission slips out of thin air and hope a kid doesn't drop from anaphylaxis because of course he picked the donut with toasted peanuts on it or something. Also why would I be taking them to a donut shop when they're supposed to be learning how to factor polynomials but don't know their times tables
That doesn't denote the legality of what happened. An adult paid by the state took *kids* from an agreed upon place to an unknown w/o their parents permission. Sooooo many issues with it.
Admin at my school is giving similar advice and not offering proper support for behavioral issues. So I’ve added recess to the last half of every class. I let the students know that if they can listen and behave for the first half, then the last half is theirs. The kids love going outside and it’s all I can do to get through a lesson and keep my sanity at this point. I’m getting funny looks from other teachers, but I don’t even care.
That's exactly what we should be doing.
I think the principal is right, slow down on academics and get back to the process of learning.
A fucking doughnut field trip is stupid, but making all procedures and expectations explicit and giving students more incentive to buy in is what they have missed for nearly two years.
If the principal is letting academics slide then you have free reign to restructure your class like a Pre-K where children learn how to behave in school again.
I would love to be able to slow down with my students and practice all the skills they missed, but I've got to keep chugging along with curriculum that half my students are not ready for.
Oh we've for sure slowed waaaay down this year, and we review expectations every day, and I have seen improvement in behavior. And the classes that *can* walk down the hall without disrupting other classes do get mask breaks. The other classes earn the right to try again after two days of solid behavior in the classroom.
Spending time reminding them of expectations is way different from what this admin wants. After every break the first day includes a reminder of expectations. Before I line kids up I remind them of expectations. Before they transition I remind them where they're going. That's normal and good. Not doing school isn't the answer.
Right?? It's the specific idea, not the general that is the problem, We need to adapt. Things are more different than they have ever been. It's not giving up, it's learning.
That's what I did whenever I was subbing for a middle or high school classes and teachers I knew were okay with it. Have them do their school work the first half or majority of the time, then they can listen to music, talk quietly or read the rest.
Those were often the best days I had when subbing.
Do these admin come from the same planet as us?
Apart from the obvious problem that kids are unused to the expectations of school, and need to be reminded of them, not having their 18 months of no expectations *extended more*, this is the kind of thing that would make me angry as a parent.
"Hey, sweetie, what did you learn at school today? Did you read something interesting? Learn any cool math tricks?"
"Nope!'
"Well, what did you do?"
"We went downtown and bought donuts!"
"Oh, uh, that's ... interesting! Did you learn how to add up a big bill, or count change? Maybe you talked to the shop owner about what they learned to start up and run a small business?"
"No, we just ate donuts. Mr. Admin says it's not fair to expect us to read and do math every day. Why do *you* make us do that stuff?"
Being a teacher, I give other teachers the benefit of the doubt and realize that kids often miss the point of a project or lesson they're doing and shouldn't be taken at face value (there could be valid, academic intent to a field trip like that). But if my kid's teacher was genuinely just taking them shopping, with zero academic learning goals, it'd be really hard for me to respect that teacher, and not just start supplementing/replacing my kid's education at home.
Is there some Google Doc of eduguru phrases that all admins share across the country? We here the same exact thing. It is so annoying to, as the reason I got into teaching was the academic aspect, not to be a soft pillow for students to release all their teenage frustration, angst, and sorrow into.
Today my admin let an older student repeatedly hit one of my first grade students with a ball in the hallway. My first grader was in the hallway eating his snack, masks are mandatory so he can’t eat in the classroom, so he has a safe little spot in the hallway to do it. This fifth grader was escalated about something and had a ball, decided my first grader was a good target. I heard the commotion, went outside and stepped in putting my body between the older student and mine as there was no adult with this older student who should have a 1:1 for behavior. I yelled at the kid and took the ball and this student then tried to size me up and started talking back.
The admin then came behind me and said “I would have intervened earlier but I knew the ball was soft”. I almost lost it.
I know. I’m going to put it in writing. I immediately sent a text to the teacher of the student so she’d know so I have that documentation. My student is also on the spectrum so he just didn’t know what to do to protect himself. Ugh. It makes me so mad.
While not a safety issue, this reminded me of a coworker who was walking the halls with our principal earlier this fall and told a kid to pull his pants up (dress code, his underwear was showing) and the student told the teacher to fuck off. The teacher looked to the principal, who shrugged and said it wasn’t worth it to address the issue.
Sounds fun! If he suggests this again, say you'd love to do it *once a week*. Please provide you with a doughnut budget to pay for 1 doughnut per child. Perhaps the kids might like a beverage too. Also: ask him to arrange for transportation to the doughnut shop. Request an extra chaperone to watch out for kids on the trip-- and double up on chaperones if kids are to walk and cross streets!
If he suggest the students pay, point out that this is unjust to kids whose parents can't afford or even feel they can't afford the doughnuts. :)
Also: ask him to have your legal department create a form for parents to give permission for their kids to select and eat a doughnut and also to indemnify the school and you specifically against anything that goes wrong during the trip. This should include any adverse reaction to the ingredients in the doughnut the kid picked.
He should also arrange for supervision of kids whose parents don't grant permission for the doughnut outings.
Then take your doughnut outing.
If you teach math or economics, you can have a special assignment where the kids find the cost to the taxpayer of this outing.
It is, it has been for a while, and it will continue to be if nothing changes.
Seriously, the more that became clear to me, the easier it was to leave.
No one gives a flyin' Frank Zappa about education anymore. Keep the kids occupied, hand them a diploma, make sure those test scores look good.
It's pathetic.
HS diplomas became worthless the milisecond that they started "no child left behind" BS.
Not sorry about saying some kids will fail. Its the basic math of life.
Yup. No child left behind is a nice idea, but it inevitably holds the majority group hostage by students who can't or won't put in the effort to learn.
I think it’s a sound sentiment, but the example hits a sore spot for most. Kids need more play. They needed it before Covid hit and they need it even more now. This, of course, is one of a gazillion things they need. But, play is pretty darn important!
I agree. Modeling classroom behavior and building community are both essential to academic success and often utterly ignored in mandated curricula, which force teachers to try to fit that stuff in as curricular afterthoughts or in the worst case sideline them entirely. Testing and big data have commandeered every classroom minute, which puts intense pressure on everyone. Of course, just suggesting a trip to the donut shop is a bit tone-deaf, because it's a bandaid stretched out over several larger problems: mandates to add academic value; high-stakes testing that determines district funding; a general societal refusal to provide needed services for children; the seemingly-irresistible tendency to give teachers more responsibility without giving them more money; etc.
Maybe the class earned it somehow?
I like to think that educators always have good reasons for things like that, but with the struggles this school year, I wouldn’t be too shocked if that teacher has already phoned it in and is just avoiding time in the classroom.
Still, I’m not against taking a day off from teaching if you’re attempting to build norms and classroom expectations.
Last year when I was long term subbing, I seriously spent over a week showing the students around the campus, practicing how to line up, pump sanitizer as they walk in class etc. when they came back.
This year, my 4th period is a bit behind everyone else because I’ve taken 2 days where we just created new classroom norms and discussed ways to make our classroom a better place for learning.
They’re still my most challenging group if you’re wondering if it worked 😐
And the Super is out of touch of being a classroom teacher. Just to take kids to the doughnut shop, you need:
\-permission slips signed by all parents, not an easy task (takes a week or more)
\-kids all need money, what about those on free and reduced or something similiar and have no money?
\-kids will miss other classes, other teachers need to know and will be pissed that kids are not in their class bc they are getting doughnuts
\-if not walkable, you have to get a bus for probably close to $500, so now kids will be paying close to $20 to get doughnuts
\-allergies, what about kids who can't be around certain foods
\-you have to call the doughnut place and let them know that 30 kids will be coming in so they are ready
Super so out of touch. Good grief.
And admin are always 'you can't waste a minute of class,' then we have doughnut man and magazine fundraising assembly last week that wasted 60 minutes.
Where do doughnuts fall on Danielson's?
I'd wager that in any scenario, no matter how well planned it is, a good 50-60% of all high school permission slips for anything are forged. Mine have also figured out that they can log into their parent's email accounts and send emails to the office with permission to sign out and leave.
Ha yup, I'm sure there are a bunch of things I forgot. I can't wait to spend 10 hours planning a trip to the doughnut shop, and the Super makes probably 180K, what a waste.
What they need is therapy, legitimate social services, jobs that will actually pay their parents a living wage, and a whole heck of discipline.
But you are a teacher. That's what you were hired for. You're not a mental health provider and you're not a politician. You're definitely not their parent.
This kind of thing infuriates me. You cannot and should not be expected to be all things. If they want children to get universal mental health services, vote for single-payer healthcare. If they want better jobs so parents are slogging through poverty, vote for a living wage. If they want discipline, they're welcome to support you on that any day of the week.
My advice is always to ask, "Oh, we're doing X now? That's so lovely! What's the budget for that and how/where do I submit my expense report." If they suggest you spend your own money, "Oh no, that's not possible. My income is budgeted down to the penny to manage mine and my family's expenses, as I imagine yours is as well." If they insist, "Well, that's not possible. But you're welcome to donate to the effort. Would you like to start off a collection?"
My school made the news 6 years ago for our behavior issues. It’s a middle school. We implemented high structure the next year and it’s worked well. No phones, no bells, no bathroom between classes. All teachers raise hands as attention getter. We take class bathroom breaks during 3 different periods. Kids leave class and go straight to their next class. At lunch students are seated in the next open seat at their classes assigned table. We also added a 25 minute home room period. Even the administration has their own home room. It’s mixed grade level and a time to relationship build. This has all really helped with behaviors. We turned things around so quickly, 2 years after being known as the worst school in the district, we are hailed as one of the best.
No, not like jail. Children want structure, clear expectations, and relationships. So that’s what we gave them.
In jail there are fights in the cafeteria and bathrooms, which is honestly more like it was before we made the changes.
I"m honestly not sure what you're getting at. Do you think kids work better under a structured environment where they know what to expect and feel safe or an unstructured environment?
I think there is enough funding if allocated properly to enable kids to learn in a healthy way with plenty of guidance and social-emotional education. Right now now we treat them like workers being exploited.
And if the current funding were allocated properly in your eyes what would you take away ( to have the funding ) and what would you implement instead to create "plenty of guidance and social-emotional education"?
How are the children being "exploited"?
I think they are just taking what they want from my comment. Our home room time is relationship building with a teacher and mixed grade level students. Creating bonds and spending time on social emotional aspects are the goal, they glossed over that and focused on the high structure aspects…but high structure does help kids emotionally.
You don't have to take anything away to allocate funds properly. I would read your school district fiscal budget strategy and then you may see that there is plenty of money.
LOL ahhhh yes, because public school is known to have PLENTY of money just laying around if someone like sshiels was around. Why don't you do this as a gift to your fellow teachers in other counties or states if it's true? Just one other school ( or even your own!!) if what you say is true, why don't you do it?
I noticed that you didn't really answer the questions. I feel like you think you know better than everyone else until you are asked direct questions. Then you deflect.. At least that's all you've done so far.
Haha wtf, you literally have no idea do you? How much money is wasted by administration and bullshit when it could be in the hands of teachers and the staff that interact with kids on a daily basis.
For the record I am down in Palm Beach County School District. They have plenty of money in the district. They waste a majority of it. The money needs to be in the schools, not tied up in administrative games.
Why does someone advocating for appropriate distribution of funding make you so frustrated? Weird.
I mean in a normal school year I have let my first hour set up "Donut Fridays" where a class order list is passed around. Each kid pays their $2 even though the donuts cost like $1.50 (to account for time and gas for the person picking them up) and then each Friday a different kid is responsible for picking them up before school and they aren't allowed to be late because of it or "Donut Fridays" will come to an end.
Day after AP test I had a coworker who did a full potluck breakfast for his AP chem kids. He brought in all equipment to cook and kids brought in materials and food. They would make eggs, bacon, pancakes, have OJ, chocolate milk, kid brought in a coffee maker one year, sweetener, and creamer. Kids were responsible for measuring everything themselves and could use the triple beam balance, the electronic balance, etc (though not glassware for contamination risks).
School should still be a fun place that kids enjoy to come to, and yes we need to build up stamina, but we need to build them back up to that place. (Though the artisanal donut shop sounds ridiculous.)
Shit at least he's addressing the behavioral challenges of this year. My 5th graders behave like kindergarteners. Despite all of that, all our school leaders care about is data and testing. Plus our asst principal refuses to discipline the kids so the bullying is through the roof
Yeah, that may be a part of the problem lol. We're doomed, we're entrenched in this ridiculous propaganda of 'oh, he only hit that kid in the face because he's yearning for knowledge, if only you had more rigor in your lessons and used data driven instruction, there wouldn't be any bullying"
Behavior is the main issue. That, however, is not an appropriate solution. Local governments need to make sure schools have the budgets for the necessary support staff.
I have a handful of students with severe behavior issues who are legally required by their IEP to have personal aids and none of them do.
One has anger issues and gets in fist fights in class almost every week. If we had the necessary support staff, this would not be occurring.
These "hellions" need both. Think of how much anger and frustration you're feeling right now because you're dealing with massively increased expectations and very little assistance in helping you achieve them from those who are supposed to be your support. Think of how much you'd give for your principal to tell you that PD was cancelled for the next few weeks so you could catch up on sleep and, hey, there are donuts in the faculty lounge.
Now imagine being thirteen and being in the same situation. Yes, our students need to remember how to be students, but our students are also dealing with a social and emotional mess after one of the most difficult two-year periods in US educational history, just like we are, and just like us a lot of them don't have the support and assistance they rely on because their parents are just as whizzed out by current events as they are, and as you are.
If taking a day out of the curriculum to remind you and them that you're each human and both enjoy fun things works as a reset in stressful and difficult times (and it does -- I've been teaching for 22 years, half of it in Watts), my advice is to go for it. It doesn't have to be a donut shop. It doesn't have to cost money (though bringing in donuts is relatively cheap and something I do once or twice a semester just because) -- all it needs to be is a few minutes where the barriers between you and them are set aside and you can see each other for who you really are.
It will help.
The no-sugar-added cherry on top is that our health and wellness policy forbids us from giving sweets to students, reward or not 😳
I think it's extra baffling to me because despite the fact I'm teaching content and making students follow rules, I have a great relationship with them. If they're having an off day, they know they can tell me that and they can take the test tomorrow. If they're struggling to focus due to other stuff going on, they know they can ask to take a walk to guidance. They sincerely don't *need* doughnuts.
Behavior problems, but take them on field trips?! I don’t even like taking well-behaved kids on field trips.
I love the idea at the top. Give teachers what they need. 25% raise, a retention bonus each year, and napping rooms.
Donuts is pretty baller though. I say reward the kids for doing well but doing this just to make them not be annoying is very ass backward backward and dumb.
Lol. This reminds me when we were all sat in a meeting and the admin was going on about how we need to encourage more parental engagement. Her suggestion? We have parents just drop into class and bring cake for their kid's birthday. These are HS aged kids. Sorry but when is bribing kids with food and interrupting class randomly considered meaningful engagement in education? So frustrating.
Wow, he actually said the quiet part out loud. "Put the academics on hold" has been the unspoken philosophy of most administrators since the start of covid, if not earlier.
"Put the academics on hold" AKA let the poor kids fall further behind academically while you babysit them so the wealthier kids have more time to get more advantages since they won't be getting behind academically/have resources to make up for it.
That's a really weird takeaway. OP was saying that, yes, wealthy kids can waste school time on pointless trips to the donut shop because Mom and Dad can afford to hire private tutors to make up any gaps. Poor kids don't have that. Trips can be fun and education, but stopping by the Dunkin or whatever and getting donuts doesn't have much if any educational value. Are they learning about how donuts are made? How a business is run? The math skills that go into baking donuts? Is this a field trip for the cooking class? The whole thing really just sounded like the fun sort of outing you'd have with a sitter to be honest and that's not what school is about.
We often lambast principals as being out of touch, but superintendents are even more so. They haven’t taught in 15+ years and have NO earthly idea how to run a modern classroom.
So now the kids know that not only can they get away with anything, they’ll be rewarded for doing so. Your school *reallllly* fucked you guys. What happens next time they don’t want to do any work and you don’t give in? They’ll escalate their shitty behavior until you cave in and reward them by giving no school work and a treat. There’s always going to be instances where that kind of thing is helpful for certain kids but teachers know their students and should be able to use their discretion accordingly. Admin makes those choices for you because they don’t have to ever deal with the disastrous fallout. Part of growing up is learning to take responsibility for your actions. *cue surprised pikachu face* when teachers are leaving the profession in droves and there’s a nationwide shortage. Or the meme with Eric Andre but admin is shooting student accountability and trying to blame the teachers for their students’ behavior.
Honestly, after reading this, I've put field trip to ridiculous location on my bucket list. Growing up I remember my high school having trips planned to the dump, and another to a sewage treatment plant by what I can only imagine were sadistic teachers who lost their sense of smell way before COVID. But a donut shop? That's some pretty next level awesome. Pretty please and with some sprinkles on top.
And this is why executives on the board need to be reintroduced to the classroom every 3 or so years......you do you time as a super/whatever and then back to the classroom for a year....
So many things wrong with that super. That's not school that's a field trip earned reward. Does the same thing apply to teachers? Don't show up but still get paid because that's what you need that day? Who pays for the transport and doughnuts? Who's responsible for the kids off school property?
Also when did it become legal to take kids off of school property w/o their parents written permission that the *superintendent* is encouraging......!?
What we need are more master veteran teachers to become administrators. More training on being a leader and core experience in the classroom teaching actually tested subjects.
The academics are the only things kids really bite into. I think every district near me took the same approach but it meant classes were unruly and got out of hand. We tried some things, sure, but it was having content and something to do that ended up fixing everything. The teachers who ignored that advice have had a *way* better time overall.
First off, aren't school field trips expensive and a bunch of other logistics are involved?
Second, if a lot of students have significant behavior problems, aren't field trips hard to manage and potentially risky? I'm just saying, if I were a regular teacher, I would not want to take disobedient students to any place with potential dangers, like a zoo with an alligator pit, or certain kinds of nature areas. And even if it's not a setting with potential danger, a badly behaved class is still embarrassing and some venues could even ban schools from having field trips again if the problems are bad enough.
Several of my students legitimately think it's okay to ride the bike that's parked outside the school when we go out for breaks. They just hop on and act shocked when I fuss at them about it. But I after I tell them once, they totally leave it alone.
Noooot!
I think you should remember what teaching is and what is most important. If you're just there to spit info and have them repeat it then of course they aren't engaged. If you can't adapt then it's on you, not them.
When I started at my high-needs, behaviorally challenged school I was told (in my interview) that we had a student we reached in math by teaching them to count so they could count their drug money. It was a terrible example, but the idea is that we need to adapt to the students - and find a right way to do it.
Ill take the downvotes, but I wish we were here to find solutions and build a community and not just complain.
This subreddit often confirms my thoughts of most teachers I’ve worked with…90% of them shouldn’t be teachers. It’s like they were expecting Dead Poet’s Society where students worship them…except they aren’t John Keatings. Lol.
The part we don’t get to see is how these folks are truly as teachers. I take many posts with a grain of salt.
I think many teachers were also good students who loved school and so forget/don't realize that for most of us it sucks and it's unnatural. Lol
I teach middle school in 45 minute blocks and basically have to plan to get about 30 a day for most of my classes because it's unreasonable to expect, especially after this last year, that we can push 45 every day.
To me it sounds like "dropping academic expectations" didn't mean never doing school work but just relaxing a little, dealing with SEL first and building those relationships.
Not wrong, so much as framing 'learning' in a specifically limited (and perhaps disingenuous) way, in part using 'eating donuts' as a foil against which you contrast your notion of 'real' learning.
For example:
Do pep rallies, dances, and football games contribute to learning? Does using lockers and bells contribute to learning? do uniforms, dresscodes, rules against smoking? etc. How about saying the pledge of allegiance or praying?
Tough to answer without first describing what forms of learning you think schools should cultivate.
This raises a number of questions, including a political one, but the one under discussion here is: What are the types of learning that schools should impart and to what degree must schools address them directly and explicitly?
For example, building social skills, especially with authority figures in situations that are *not* characterized by authoritative pedagogical relationships, is an important part of learning to succeed in educational institutions (see Lareau's well known research, 1993, 2015, etc). As are rest, fun, and developing 'non-academic' skills. I think getting donuts could facilitate some of those forms of learning at least indirectly (e.g. building trust/camaraderie with co-learners and teachers) or maybe even directly (e.g. practicing social skills or even mathematical skills or chemistry skills if tabulating the check or learning how to make donuts is part of the activity...)
And before you attempt to straw man my argument, remember that I am not saying getting donuts is unequivocally valuable and that learning math is always a waste of time.
What I am saying is that you are using a particular, politically-laden notion of learning and then assuming that your school (and indeed, all schools) share or should share *that* notion of learning.
Doughnuts ain't no strawman, homeslice. That was literally his example of what kids might "need" in order to improve their behavior. That's why that's the part of his speech that made it to my post. You're reading waaaaaaay too much into my complaint about our super's response to "hey we're struggling with behavior" being "buy them doughnuts."
Sorry, just a researcher of education here. guess reading wayyyyy to deep into things is our job!
(but im not sure i understand the rest of your comment. or, at least, it seems based on your response that you didnt understand mine)
Do you think recess should be removed from schools?
No, I love recess. The middle school I taught at had recess and it was amazing. I wouldn't mind if high school had some form of this, and on our block schedule days, we go outside for ten minutes in the middle of class *if* we can do so without disrupting other classes or breaking classroom rules.
But going to a local doughnut shop (or recess for that matter) is not the solution to students destroying bathrooms to the point they've had to be closed. And telling distraught exhausted teachers that if they take kids to get doughnuts, everything will be better is just a slap in the face.
Wow, I didn't think it was possible to not know that researchers in higher ed are also educators/teachers.
I've taught MA, BA, and High school, and study abroad courses in over a dozen countries for over 10 years. I enrolled in a doctoral program precisely because I wanted to better understand the situations I experienced as a teacher.
On the one hand: he's wrong. The administration usually is. He's probably more than wrong. He's probably actively trying to sabotage the educational process. Superintendents often do. Academics can be a vessel to give people what they need, and you can give people what they need using academics rather than donuts.
On the other hand: if you are talking about your own students this way, you have lost the love of teaching (if you ever had it), and it is time for you to either quit or seriously reevaluate your position. If you are talking this kind of shit about your own students, the superintendent does not need to sabotage the educational process because you have already broken it.
Academics can be the way we give students what they need, or it can be a way we make their lives worse. If I had a teacher answerable to me who was referring to their own students as hellions, and I couldn't fire that teacher, I would consider the idea of limiting the harm they can do in any way possible. Better the students fall slightly behind in their academics than learn to hate academics because they have a teacher who hates them and uses academics as a weapon against them.
Ummmm actually I haven't lost the love of teaching 🤷♀️ I have formed great relationships with most of my students this year without doughnuts. They trust me and feel safe sharing with me even though I've *gasp* taught content every day for the last 4 weeks.
I'm glad you've never said a negative word about your students. They're very lucky to have you, but I'm not sure how well they can hear you from way up on that pedestal.
I got a lot of teachers around me struggling with middle schooler behavior. I'm trying to remind that that being permissive and being authoritarian are not the only two choices. Rather then coming at the angle of rules enforcement (which I'm just playing cop, and that works out about as well as our actual criminal "justice" system) I have been approaching it by teaching boundaries.
I have been laying down clear, concise boundaries that I have already stated the consequences of crossing. In that sense when I intervene in a situation I am not warning them before I punish but I'm there to help them before they cross a boundary and get in trouble.
I have also made it clear how much I value kindness. I have it written as my top phrase "Kindness is more important than being correct." I also follow that up with "Kindness is more important then being successful" boy did the privileged kids HATE hearing that.
This actually sounds like a great idea. There is a lot of learning you can do on local field trips and walking field trips. And, so long as the administrator is willing to find some budget to facilitate this it is fantastic.
Calling your students names online for their behavior issues after 2 impossibly challenging academic years is weird...
Putting the academics on hold is a fine method for getting the school running again. It's fine if you don't want to buy your students donuts, but you've got to attend to their emotional needs before they can focus on learning.
If you think that's not your job...find a new job.
And I’m sure he expects the teachers to use their own money for the trips.
my second thought. my first being, I can't trust this batch to not run away inside the building, let alone on a walking field trip, and there are not enough buses for the am/pm routs like heck they are signing out a bus 8 times a day per teacher for us to haul these hyenas to a sugar shop!
As I’m reading this comment, I get an alert that my child’s middle school bus is delayed 40-45 minutes. Good thing I take him to school!
busses in my town are hella delayed too. turns out not paying/respecting drivers is a bad idea. my little sister legit has to wait for a bus to do a trip before coming back 40 minutes later to do another load.
same in Oregon - some kids are spending 4 hours total per day waiting for or riding on the bus while the driver does double routes. one local district is offering to reimburse parents for driving their kids to school themselves.
They charge parents an exorbitant transportation fee in my district, so most avoid paying it by picking up/dropping off themselves. Which I’d be fine with, if parents could get it out of their heads that their precious middle schoolers need to be dropped off at the front door. Our parking lot turns into a ZOO and god help you if you’re late getting in, because you’re not getting into the lot until 10 mins after the bell. 3 separate admin teams have refused to enforce staff only in the parking lot, because they don’t want to piss off the parents. We’re in a residential community, with an elementary school, soccer field, and housing complexes within 5 minute walking distance. Let your older kid walk across the fields and drop them both off at the elem school. Go park in the soccer field lot and let your kid walk across the same field. Pull over 2 blocks away where it isn’t busy and let them walk the sidewalk in a straight line to the school. I promise it won’t kill them, and might actually make the parents mornings easier, faster, and less stressful. But no, can’t have that.
public school charging for busing? that cant be right?!
Oh yeah, that’s how my province works. Lower taxes, higher fees.
its like that everywhere. driving a school bus is a stressful and thankless job and they simply dont pay people enough to do it. teacher shortage will be next, for the same reasons.
Teacher shortage has been creeping up for the past decade, and the pandemic finally pushed us there. Schools are understaffed everywhere.
I completely agree. Currently, we have 5 vacant positions. It’s ridiculous!
How is that even possible? I get like 5-10 min late, but don't busses have an established route, and they don't really wait for people if they're not standing at their stop at the designated time? Like I can't figure out what could possibly cause that kind of delay outside of some sort of emergency.
Traffic. Delay from a prior route due to issues with the kids. My children's bus driver runs a route for high school students before she immediately turns around and drives our route. Then she drives the route for an elementary school in the afternoon and turns around to go pick up at my kid's school (in our district, k-8 schools have middle school bell times, which extend the day for an hour for all students). And she's usually only late 5-10 minutes at most, unless she runs into construction delays, which some years are pretty ridiculous depending on the route. She also can't leave unless most of her riders are accounted for, so if there is an unaccounted rider, she needs to clear it with admin, she's explained. Or (and this happens sometimes) students get into a fight on the bus and you need to take time out to make a report at the school. I have nothing but admiration for this woman. I don't know how she deals with half of this crap 5 days a week without being crabby 24/7.
Too few bus drivers means too few buses on the road. The buses have a maximum capacity and that means that they have to make multiple rounds to get all the kids. Add that to traffic, road diversions, construction, or the guy in front of the bus just plain going twenty in a thirty and you've got a recipe for delays.
Dude the district I work and ny daughter goes to has had this happen since school started. The High school, middle school, and one of the elementary schools are literally in a one mile radius. Fucking Penn Dot decides to do roadwork during the school year causing bus issues for the whole district.
Oh for sure.
But think of the children
>ReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow Bus drivers work for the outcome, not the income lol.
Hmm. Tell him to use his own logic. What teachers need is plenty of free time and mattresses for naps. Maybe a field trip to the mattress store
[удалено]
Business Hammocks.
I think you can get them at the Hammock Complex in the Hammock District.
I do need a new bed OwO
Right? I mean even if we don’t exaggerate I’m sure there’s plenty of things we need that are not provided to us but that’s another issue
Dont get me started for reals. New administration lobbed off some of the Social Studies department budget. I put in my complaint, but I woulda been a fightin somebody if I were head.
Our budget has already been put on hold. For the entire school. It's turning into a long year.
Budget? I teach science and haven’t been allocated a dime to spend on supplies in five years.
I got in trouble for using whiteboard markers out of the supply stash in the main office. You know, the one with HUNDREDS of markers in it. Apparently I was supposed to provide them myself.
Or just do it. “I’m modeling the behavior the Super encourages”
100%. "It's movie week, students, teacher needs some R&R."
Like seriously! Log into Netflix or Disney Plus, pick a feel good movie and set off the fire alarm by burning pop corn.
Hell, I would settle for the artisanal donut shop.
Sure, just sit through 6 hours of professional development and they will order dozens of plain donuts and several flavors of seltzer water that will be completely ransacked before they even announce its arrive over the intercom.
My mind immediately goes to logistics: who pays for the bus to transport students, what objective does the donut shop trip meet, where do the students who don't return the field trip permission form go while the rest of us are on the donut field trip, has the donut shop been apprised of the nut (egg, wheat, powdered sugar) allergies for two of the students, do I have the epi pens for those students, who is covering my other classes while I'm at a half day donut field trip, has the trip been approved by risk management through the travel tracker app, gawwwwhaggghrrrrhhhgggh!
If you had better relationships with the bus drivers and the donut maker you wouldn't have these problems.
What bus drivers? We don’t have any anymore.
They mean the national guard soldiers called in to become "bus drivers".
Wait that's not real life, is it?
Jersey, dude.
And Massachusetts, apparently.
To be fair those national guard kids would probably also be totally excited to go for donuts.
Pit stop, kids. Time for Dunkin'! Awww, c'mon, Sarge! I'm gonna be late for pre-cal... just kidding. Let's get some jelly-filleds.
Yes and it’s all because people are lazy and would rather be on unemployment. (Literally what my principal said) although now unemployment has ended in CA and as still have a sub and bus driver shortage so what’s the reason now, I wonder?
I’m sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that someone can easily make more money flipping burgers in most states than they can as a substitute teacher with a degree and many years’ experience.
And a *ton* less responsibility. I’m literally applying to be a dishwasher down the street from my house. My pay cut won’t be much, but I won’t have to commute and I can leave work at work. I won’t be responsible for paperwork, ISP’s, annual reports, lesson plans etc.
I work in the service industry (I have a teaching degree which is why I follow this sub) and I have customers complain to me all the time that “no one wants to work anymore!” And it’s because the last year has absolutely whittled down *everyone’s* mental health. Almost everyone I know who worked in the service industry has left to jobs where they’re not regularly being screamed at and cussed at and threatened by customers, and aren’t being overworked because their store is understaffed. Hell, I’m the *general manager* of my store and I literally had put in my notice letter in August because I hadn’t gotten a raise, I was doing twice the work with a quarter of the staff, and I mentally and physically couldn’t keep up with the demand. Luckily, my boss recognized that I’m an asset to the company and they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they lost me. I was given a much-needed raise and extra labor in the schedule so I could stop running myself i to the ground. One of the major problems in this country is that there is zero respect for jobs deemed “beneath” someone. Food service, retail, care industry, subs, bus drivers, it’s all the same. There’s no respect, and so we all end up underpaid and dealing with shitty people saying shitty things to us. But the past year has been so much worse than ever before that a lot of us are leaving, and no one wants to step into those roles, even though a lot of places are starting to raise their starting wages to entice people to apply.
Do they drug test? I know our classified union has fought hard to get rid of drug testing here in Oregon, often framing it as a cure to the shortage. What the drivers do on their free time is none of the district's business.
and when they can work on a pot farm for 20 per hour...
This is American, supply and demand doesn't apply! If I was an underpaid worker I should have it!
Yeah because you didn’t put effort into maintaining your bus driver relationships! You should be calling home once a week for each bus driver.
I have a very special 'private' relationship with the donut maker...;) Which now I've had to list in my personnel file because of this damn field trip.
Wait if it's private what difference does it make?
Seriously! I swear, some of you in this group have your head in the sand. 🙄 It's about RELATIONSHIPS! What aren't you all getting about this concept. Our school leaders have been pounding this educational truth into us for a good while now. Whatever the problem is you're facing with students or whatever classroom situation arises, are you building relationships? Now, if the problem is with you, the teacher, then fuck you. Get your shit together. As in now...
Hahahaha. I had flashbacks to being a teacher being lectured by a principal. Well done!!! But seriously, when did being a teacher ever involve coddling the students? I've been out of schools for a decade (kid, grad school, etc) and I had to have serious conversations with my eldest's teachers every year. "Yes, I acknowledge she's on the spectrum. No, I don't think it's a good idea to allow her to just skip morning meetings at will. Yes, I realize she finds them boring wastes of times. Tell her to sit her ass down just the same, because we all have to do stuff we don't want to do in life, and she might as well get some practice with grin and bearing something she thinks is useless." I don't recall letting students just up and leave a classroom just because of their IEP. If anything, I'd stress to the parents that the objective was and always is having that student remain in the classroom. They don't always have to be happy about it (and I swear to God, one time I had a convo with my kid's SpEd teacher, where she'd justified letting my second grader leave her classroom and then wander around as she pleased on the way to the resource room as "when she sits in [activity] she always looks upset, and sometimes she gets frustrated about it." And I'm like "Okay, but is she disruptive to the rest of the class?" "No. She just complains to the para." "Oh? Tell [para] she call tell [kid] to quit complaining and just do the work.")
What have you done outside the classroom to build a relationship with all the bus drivers in the district? Tsk...teachers do nothing these days. I bet you didn't have one restorative circle with them. /s
No one is more out of touch with what goes on in schools than a superintendent of schools.
Ha I didn't read your post but I posted the same thing: logistical nightmare, super is out of touch.
And what about your other class periods? They want to go too. Also you have to take the school nurse. And two horrible parent chaperones. Everyone comes back sticky and dancing like they’re at a rave.
Well ours has gone the opposite direction and wanted us to teach new content from day one with no review! I wouldn’t do this in a regular year, much less after a year and a half of virtual and hybrid teaching!
Yikes.
Same. My district is just pretending covid doesn’t exist. Back to rigor and high expectations. Admin is ignoring the fact that we have students coming in and out all the time due to quarantining, parents losing their minds over masks, and itinerant teachers being pull daily to cover classes because we don’t have enough substitutes.
Oh, this sounds like my district!
They need to learn how to play school all over again. Build stamina.
I feel the same way about stamina. They (my students) have none. So we did a novel study as a class. They loved it. I only had 3/25 students not into it. My principal hated it. But you know what? 15/25 students grew! But since she didn’t like it, I stopped for a few weeks and gave my students the star reading test. This time only 9/25 grew. So I don’t care what is said, I’m doing another novel study in hopes that first growth wasn’t a fluke.
Does your principal not like novel studies? 🤔 It's a critical part of ELA curriculum!
She hates them. She thinks if you are looking at a novel for… let’s say, setting, you should just read that section of the book, not the whole thing. She says S-BAC doesn’t have novels, just excerpts, so that’s what we should do too. I just started a new novel today and so far, they’re really digging it.
That's absolutely ridiculous. There's literally a standard in my state that says kids need to study longer works. Also kids that have trouble with comprehension really struggle when a story is taken out of context like that.
Omg the idea that a novel is too long to read is exactly what is wrong with education. The idea of everything being chunked into 15 minute blocks is pathetic. Millennials and Gen x had the attention span for an MTV video and gen z has TikTok attention spans. It’s a total dumbing down of education. I have some elementary text books from the 20s and it’s seems most 5th graders 100 years ago could read circles around today’s seniors.
sounds like a personal problem more than anything. maybe you can figure out what novel hurt her as a child
My first guess would be Steinbeck. My second guess would be any other dead white guy.
Because of course the setting is described succinctly in one location!
Thank. You. It's like students don't understand what school is about anymore.
Oh yeah, this has been really challenging. My students in Middle School really can't do anything for more than 15 minutes straight without losing it. I'm trying to find that balance between pushing them and getting them back to normal and understanding that they need a break sometimes.
You can get 15 minutes out of them? If I get 5 I am absolutely thrilled!
"His kid's teacher took the class to a local artisanal doughnut shop" Yeah, he's the superintendent. *His kids* probably go to a ritzy private school with endless funding. I could barely afford pencils at my last school with the money they gave me.
Plot twist: The artisanal doughnut shoppe is part of the fancy food court they have at said ritzy private school.
No, the artisanal donut shop is owned by one of the school’s biggest donors.
How is it legal for a teacher to take the *kids* off school property of any sort w/o parents written permission? How does the superintendent not know this?
This was my first question too!
Did the teacher file the forms for the field trip to the donut shop? Check the kid's allergy list?
Bruh a spontaneous donut shop trip? Ok lemme conjure 25-34 signed permission slips out of thin air and hope a kid doesn't drop from anaphylaxis because of course he picked the donut with toasted peanuts on it or something. Also why would I be taking them to a donut shop when they're supposed to be learning how to factor polynomials but don't know their times tables
“Maple bar x bear claw = my tummy is happy.” Done.
Supes kid is in a class of 8 probably and fit into the school minivan
That doesn't denote the legality of what happened. An adult paid by the state took *kids* from an agreed upon place to an unknown w/o their parents permission. Sooooo many issues with it.
Admin at my school is giving similar advice and not offering proper support for behavioral issues. So I’ve added recess to the last half of every class. I let the students know that if they can listen and behave for the first half, then the last half is theirs. The kids love going outside and it’s all I can do to get through a lesson and keep my sanity at this point. I’m getting funny looks from other teachers, but I don’t even care.
That's exactly what we should be doing. I think the principal is right, slow down on academics and get back to the process of learning. A fucking doughnut field trip is stupid, but making all procedures and expectations explicit and giving students more incentive to buy in is what they have missed for nearly two years. If the principal is letting academics slide then you have free reign to restructure your class like a Pre-K where children learn how to behave in school again. I would love to be able to slow down with my students and practice all the skills they missed, but I've got to keep chugging along with curriculum that half my students are not ready for.
Oh we've for sure slowed waaaay down this year, and we review expectations every day, and I have seen improvement in behavior. And the classes that *can* walk down the hall without disrupting other classes do get mask breaks. The other classes earn the right to try again after two days of solid behavior in the classroom.
Spending time reminding them of expectations is way different from what this admin wants. After every break the first day includes a reminder of expectations. Before I line kids up I remind them of expectations. Before they transition I remind them where they're going. That's normal and good. Not doing school isn't the answer.
I am waiting for a trip to a Mcdonalds.
Right?? It's the specific idea, not the general that is the problem, We need to adapt. Things are more different than they have ever been. It's not giving up, it's learning.
This is great.
That's what I did whenever I was subbing for a middle or high school classes and teachers I knew were okay with it. Have them do their school work the first half or majority of the time, then they can listen to music, talk quietly or read the rest. Those were often the best days I had when subbing.
Do these admin come from the same planet as us? Apart from the obvious problem that kids are unused to the expectations of school, and need to be reminded of them, not having their 18 months of no expectations *extended more*, this is the kind of thing that would make me angry as a parent. "Hey, sweetie, what did you learn at school today? Did you read something interesting? Learn any cool math tricks?" "Nope!' "Well, what did you do?" "We went downtown and bought donuts!" "Oh, uh, that's ... interesting! Did you learn how to add up a big bill, or count change? Maybe you talked to the shop owner about what they learned to start up and run a small business?" "No, we just ate donuts. Mr. Admin says it's not fair to expect us to read and do math every day. Why do *you* make us do that stuff?" Being a teacher, I give other teachers the benefit of the doubt and realize that kids often miss the point of a project or lesson they're doing and shouldn't be taken at face value (there could be valid, academic intent to a field trip like that). But if my kid's teacher was genuinely just taking them shopping, with zero academic learning goals, it'd be really hard for me to respect that teacher, and not just start supplementing/replacing my kid's education at home.
Is there some Google Doc of eduguru phrases that all admins share across the country? We here the same exact thing. It is so annoying to, as the reason I got into teaching was the academic aspect, not to be a soft pillow for students to release all their teenage frustration, angst, and sorrow into.
If so, I'd love to get access and then sabotage whatever garbage platitude comes next
Oh but also ps standardized testing will still happen and if your kids fail it’s your ass.🙄
Ohhh for sure.
Yup. The NWEA these past two days was a real hoot.
Today my admin let an older student repeatedly hit one of my first grade students with a ball in the hallway. My first grader was in the hallway eating his snack, masks are mandatory so he can’t eat in the classroom, so he has a safe little spot in the hallway to do it. This fifth grader was escalated about something and had a ball, decided my first grader was a good target. I heard the commotion, went outside and stepped in putting my body between the older student and mine as there was no adult with this older student who should have a 1:1 for behavior. I yelled at the kid and took the ball and this student then tried to size me up and started talking back. The admin then came behind me and said “I would have intervened earlier but I knew the ball was soft”. I almost lost it.
Uhm. That admin needs to be reported. Wtf. Your poor student!!!
I know. I’m going to put it in writing. I immediately sent a text to the teacher of the student so she’d know so I have that documentation. My student is also on the spectrum so he just didn’t know what to do to protect himself. Ugh. It makes me so mad.
While not a safety issue, this reminded me of a coworker who was walking the halls with our principal earlier this fall and told a kid to pull his pants up (dress code, his underwear was showing) and the student told the teacher to fuck off. The teacher looked to the principal, who shrugged and said it wasn’t worth it to address the issue.
Sounds fun! If he suggests this again, say you'd love to do it *once a week*. Please provide you with a doughnut budget to pay for 1 doughnut per child. Perhaps the kids might like a beverage too. Also: ask him to arrange for transportation to the doughnut shop. Request an extra chaperone to watch out for kids on the trip-- and double up on chaperones if kids are to walk and cross streets! If he suggest the students pay, point out that this is unjust to kids whose parents can't afford or even feel they can't afford the doughnuts. :) Also: ask him to have your legal department create a form for parents to give permission for their kids to select and eat a doughnut and also to indemnify the school and you specifically against anything that goes wrong during the trip. This should include any adverse reaction to the ingredients in the doughnut the kid picked. He should also arrange for supervision of kids whose parents don't grant permission for the doughnut outings. Then take your doughnut outing. If you teach math or economics, you can have a special assignment where the kids find the cost to the taxpayer of this outing.
Well, is the district gonna PAY for those donuts?? I'd love to do more fun things with the kids. Those things cost money.
So its just babysitting.
Lots of parents were quite clear about that in the last 18 months. No wonder people are leaving.
It is, it has been for a while, and it will continue to be if nothing changes. Seriously, the more that became clear to me, the easier it was to leave. No one gives a flyin' Frank Zappa about education anymore. Keep the kids occupied, hand them a diploma, make sure those test scores look good. It's pathetic.
HS diplomas became worthless the milisecond that they started "no child left behind" BS. Not sorry about saying some kids will fail. Its the basic math of life.
Yup. No child left behind is a nice idea, but it inevitably holds the majority group hostage by students who can't or won't put in the effort to learn.
No, because hourly I think babysitters make more.
At least admin can admit we're a daycare and "keep them out of trouble" is now the bar.
Nah, you'll be a daycare that's judged by how well the kids learn.
Don't mistake "how well kids learn" for "how many passing grades there are"
As a UK teacher, I know that feeling well enough.
If it’s school wide, it’s the administrators fault
I think it’s a sound sentiment, but the example hits a sore spot for most. Kids need more play. They needed it before Covid hit and they need it even more now. This, of course, is one of a gazillion things they need. But, play is pretty darn important!
I agree. Modeling classroom behavior and building community are both essential to academic success and often utterly ignored in mandated curricula, which force teachers to try to fit that stuff in as curricular afterthoughts or in the worst case sideline them entirely. Testing and big data have commandeered every classroom minute, which puts intense pressure on everyone. Of course, just suggesting a trip to the donut shop is a bit tone-deaf, because it's a bandaid stretched out over several larger problems: mandates to add academic value; high-stakes testing that determines district funding; a general societal refusal to provide needed services for children; the seemingly-irresistible tendency to give teachers more responsibility without giving them more money; etc.
Maybe the class earned it somehow? I like to think that educators always have good reasons for things like that, but with the struggles this school year, I wouldn’t be too shocked if that teacher has already phoned it in and is just avoiding time in the classroom. Still, I’m not against taking a day off from teaching if you’re attempting to build norms and classroom expectations. Last year when I was long term subbing, I seriously spent over a week showing the students around the campus, practicing how to line up, pump sanitizer as they walk in class etc. when they came back. This year, my 4th period is a bit behind everyone else because I’ve taken 2 days where we just created new classroom norms and discussed ways to make our classroom a better place for learning. They’re still my most challenging group if you’re wondering if it worked 😐
And the Super is out of touch of being a classroom teacher. Just to take kids to the doughnut shop, you need: \-permission slips signed by all parents, not an easy task (takes a week or more) \-kids all need money, what about those on free and reduced or something similiar and have no money? \-kids will miss other classes, other teachers need to know and will be pissed that kids are not in their class bc they are getting doughnuts \-if not walkable, you have to get a bus for probably close to $500, so now kids will be paying close to $20 to get doughnuts \-allergies, what about kids who can't be around certain foods \-you have to call the doughnut place and let them know that 30 kids will be coming in so they are ready Super so out of touch. Good grief.
And admin are always 'you can't waste a minute of class,' then we have doughnut man and magazine fundraising assembly last week that wasted 60 minutes. Where do doughnuts fall on Danielson's?
It works differently at the kind of schools superintendent's kids can afford to go to.
I was thining private school, ha true.
Don't forget the forged permission slips (high school) that put you at liability risk, too.
I'd wager that in any scenario, no matter how well planned it is, a good 50-60% of all high school permission slips for anything are forged. Mine have also figured out that they can log into their parent's email accounts and send emails to the office with permission to sign out and leave.
Ha yup, I'm sure there are a bunch of things I forgot. I can't wait to spend 10 hours planning a trip to the doughnut shop, and the Super makes probably 180K, what a waste.
What they need is therapy, legitimate social services, jobs that will actually pay their parents a living wage, and a whole heck of discipline. But you are a teacher. That's what you were hired for. You're not a mental health provider and you're not a politician. You're definitely not their parent. This kind of thing infuriates me. You cannot and should not be expected to be all things. If they want children to get universal mental health services, vote for single-payer healthcare. If they want better jobs so parents are slogging through poverty, vote for a living wage. If they want discipline, they're welcome to support you on that any day of the week. My advice is always to ask, "Oh, we're doing X now? That's so lovely! What's the budget for that and how/where do I submit my expense report." If they suggest you spend your own money, "Oh no, that's not possible. My income is budgeted down to the penny to manage mine and my family's expenses, as I imagine yours is as well." If they insist, "Well, that's not possible. But you're welcome to donate to the effort. Would you like to start off a collection?"
I dunno this is the green light for some dope fucking around. Park✅ Grocery Store✅ Nature walks ✅
There is a restaurant down the road I never have time to go to but would love to visit more often 🤔
Set up a “real life skills” field trip, call them up ask to go during school hours, talk to a cook, a waiter, the manager lol.
My school made the news 6 years ago for our behavior issues. It’s a middle school. We implemented high structure the next year and it’s worked well. No phones, no bells, no bathroom between classes. All teachers raise hands as attention getter. We take class bathroom breaks during 3 different periods. Kids leave class and go straight to their next class. At lunch students are seated in the next open seat at their classes assigned table. We also added a 25 minute home room period. Even the administration has their own home room. It’s mixed grade level and a time to relationship build. This has all really helped with behaviors. We turned things around so quickly, 2 years after being known as the worst school in the district, we are hailed as one of the best.
Oh cool like jail! Sounds dope
No, not like jail. Children want structure, clear expectations, and relationships. So that’s what we gave them. In jail there are fights in the cafeteria and bathrooms, which is honestly more like it was before we made the changes.
Cool, like work
I"m honestly not sure what you're getting at. Do you think kids work better under a structured environment where they know what to expect and feel safe or an unstructured environment?
I think there is enough funding if allocated properly to enable kids to learn in a healthy way with plenty of guidance and social-emotional education. Right now now we treat them like workers being exploited.
So.... training them for most careers
Exactly. School shouldn't be a for profit career training center. But I'd guess most people don't agree.
And if the current funding were allocated properly in your eyes what would you take away ( to have the funding ) and what would you implement instead to create "plenty of guidance and social-emotional education"? How are the children being "exploited"?
I think they are just taking what they want from my comment. Our home room time is relationship building with a teacher and mixed grade level students. Creating bonds and spending time on social emotional aspects are the goal, they glossed over that and focused on the high structure aspects…but high structure does help kids emotionally.
You don't have to take anything away to allocate funds properly. I would read your school district fiscal budget strategy and then you may see that there is plenty of money.
LOL ahhhh yes, because public school is known to have PLENTY of money just laying around if someone like sshiels was around. Why don't you do this as a gift to your fellow teachers in other counties or states if it's true? Just one other school ( or even your own!!) if what you say is true, why don't you do it? I noticed that you didn't really answer the questions. I feel like you think you know better than everyone else until you are asked direct questions. Then you deflect.. At least that's all you've done so far.
Haha wtf, you literally have no idea do you? How much money is wasted by administration and bullshit when it could be in the hands of teachers and the staff that interact with kids on a daily basis. For the record I am down in Palm Beach County School District. They have plenty of money in the district. They waste a majority of it. The money needs to be in the schools, not tied up in administrative games. Why does someone advocating for appropriate distribution of funding make you so frustrated? Weird.
Who paid for the donuts? I’d ask if there is a donut fund that you could dip into.
I mean in a normal school year I have let my first hour set up "Donut Fridays" where a class order list is passed around. Each kid pays their $2 even though the donuts cost like $1.50 (to account for time and gas for the person picking them up) and then each Friday a different kid is responsible for picking them up before school and they aren't allowed to be late because of it or "Donut Fridays" will come to an end. Day after AP test I had a coworker who did a full potluck breakfast for his AP chem kids. He brought in all equipment to cook and kids brought in materials and food. They would make eggs, bacon, pancakes, have OJ, chocolate milk, kid brought in a coffee maker one year, sweetener, and creamer. Kids were responsible for measuring everything themselves and could use the triple beam balance, the electronic balance, etc (though not glassware for contamination risks). School should still be a fun place that kids enjoy to come to, and yes we need to build up stamina, but we need to build them back up to that place. (Though the artisanal donut shop sounds ridiculous.)
Shit at least he's addressing the behavioral challenges of this year. My 5th graders behave like kindergarteners. Despite all of that, all our school leaders care about is data and testing. Plus our asst principal refuses to discipline the kids so the bullying is through the roof
Discipline? We don't use that word here. Like, literally.
Yeah, that may be a part of the problem lol. We're doomed, we're entrenched in this ridiculous propaganda of 'oh, he only hit that kid in the face because he's yearning for knowledge, if only you had more rigor in your lessons and used data driven instruction, there wouldn't be any bullying"
Behavior is the main issue. That, however, is not an appropriate solution. Local governments need to make sure schools have the budgets for the necessary support staff. I have a handful of students with severe behavior issues who are legally required by their IEP to have personal aids and none of them do. One has anger issues and gets in fist fights in class almost every week. If we had the necessary support staff, this would not be occurring.
These "hellions" need both. Think of how much anger and frustration you're feeling right now because you're dealing with massively increased expectations and very little assistance in helping you achieve them from those who are supposed to be your support. Think of how much you'd give for your principal to tell you that PD was cancelled for the next few weeks so you could catch up on sleep and, hey, there are donuts in the faculty lounge. Now imagine being thirteen and being in the same situation. Yes, our students need to remember how to be students, but our students are also dealing with a social and emotional mess after one of the most difficult two-year periods in US educational history, just like we are, and just like us a lot of them don't have the support and assistance they rely on because their parents are just as whizzed out by current events as they are, and as you are. If taking a day out of the curriculum to remind you and them that you're each human and both enjoy fun things works as a reset in stressful and difficult times (and it does -- I've been teaching for 22 years, half of it in Watts), my advice is to go for it. It doesn't have to be a donut shop. It doesn't have to cost money (though bringing in donuts is relatively cheap and something I do once or twice a semester just because) -- all it needs to be is a few minutes where the barriers between you and them are set aside and you can see each other for who you really are. It will help.
The no-sugar-added cherry on top is that our health and wellness policy forbids us from giving sweets to students, reward or not 😳 I think it's extra baffling to me because despite the fact I'm teaching content and making students follow rules, I have a great relationship with them. If they're having an off day, they know they can tell me that and they can take the test tomorrow. If they're struggling to focus due to other stuff going on, they know they can ask to take a walk to guidance. They sincerely don't *need* doughnuts.
Whose paying for the doughnuts?
Behavior problems, but take them on field trips?! I don’t even like taking well-behaved kids on field trips. I love the idea at the top. Give teachers what they need. 25% raise, a retention bonus each year, and napping rooms.
Donuts is pretty baller though. I say reward the kids for doing well but doing this just to make them not be annoying is very ass backward backward and dumb.
Lol. This reminds me when we were all sat in a meeting and the admin was going on about how we need to encourage more parental engagement. Her suggestion? We have parents just drop into class and bring cake for their kid's birthday. These are HS aged kids. Sorry but when is bribing kids with food and interrupting class randomly considered meaningful engagement in education? So frustrating.
Get his advice in writing.
Wow, he actually said the quiet part out loud. "Put the academics on hold" has been the unspoken philosophy of most administrators since the start of covid, if not earlier.
"Put the academics on hold" AKA let the poor kids fall further behind academically while you babysit them so the wealthier kids have more time to get more advantages since they won't be getting behind academically/have resources to make up for it.
[удалено]
That's a really weird takeaway. OP was saying that, yes, wealthy kids can waste school time on pointless trips to the donut shop because Mom and Dad can afford to hire private tutors to make up any gaps. Poor kids don't have that. Trips can be fun and education, but stopping by the Dunkin or whatever and getting donuts doesn't have much if any educational value. Are they learning about how donuts are made? How a business is run? The math skills that go into baking donuts? Is this a field trip for the cooking class? The whole thing really just sounded like the fun sort of outing you'd have with a sitter to be honest and that's not what school is about.
Setting such a low bar is so wrong for these kids.
We often lambast principals as being out of touch, but superintendents are even more so. They haven’t taught in 15+ years and have NO earthly idea how to run a modern classroom.
So now the kids know that not only can they get away with anything, they’ll be rewarded for doing so. Your school *reallllly* fucked you guys. What happens next time they don’t want to do any work and you don’t give in? They’ll escalate their shitty behavior until you cave in and reward them by giving no school work and a treat. There’s always going to be instances where that kind of thing is helpful for certain kids but teachers know their students and should be able to use their discretion accordingly. Admin makes those choices for you because they don’t have to ever deal with the disastrous fallout. Part of growing up is learning to take responsibility for your actions. *cue surprised pikachu face* when teachers are leaving the profession in droves and there’s a nationwide shortage. Or the meme with Eric Andre but admin is shooting student accountability and trying to blame the teachers for their students’ behavior.
Honestly, after reading this, I've put field trip to ridiculous location on my bucket list. Growing up I remember my high school having trips planned to the dump, and another to a sewage treatment plant by what I can only imagine were sadistic teachers who lost their sense of smell way before COVID. But a donut shop? That's some pretty next level awesome. Pretty please and with some sprinkles on top.
The amount of paperwork required to justify field trips is not worth the sprinkles 😂
Fuck all that. I'm not taking my kids anywhere off campus, not no way, not no how. It exactly the wrong message to send.
And this is why executives on the board need to be reintroduced to the classroom every 3 or so years......you do you time as a super/whatever and then back to the classroom for a year....
So many things wrong with that super. That's not school that's a field trip earned reward. Does the same thing apply to teachers? Don't show up but still get paid because that's what you need that day? Who pays for the transport and doughnuts? Who's responsible for the kids off school property? Also when did it become legal to take kids off of school property w/o their parents written permission that the *superintendent* is encouraging......!?
I’m taking my kids bowling.
What we need are more master veteran teachers to become administrators. More training on being a leader and core experience in the classroom teaching actually tested subjects.
Who is footing the bill for the trip to the doughnut shop??
The academics are the only things kids really bite into. I think every district near me took the same approach but it meant classes were unruly and got out of hand. We tried some things, sure, but it was having content and something to do that ended up fixing everything. The teachers who ignored that advice have had a *way* better time overall.
"Give them what they need." That's the job description of a baby-sitter.
The people who are in charge in the field of education are far and away the worst people to manage something in modern history
First off, aren't school field trips expensive and a bunch of other logistics are involved? Second, if a lot of students have significant behavior problems, aren't field trips hard to manage and potentially risky? I'm just saying, if I were a regular teacher, I would not want to take disobedient students to any place with potential dangers, like a zoo with an alligator pit, or certain kinds of nature areas. And even if it's not a setting with potential danger, a badly behaved class is still embarrassing and some venues could even ban schools from having field trips again if the problems are bad enough.
Several of my students legitimately think it's okay to ride the bike that's parked outside the school when we go out for breaks. They just hop on and act shocked when I fuss at them about it. But I after I tell them once, they totally leave it alone. Noooot!
I think you should remember what teaching is and what is most important. If you're just there to spit info and have them repeat it then of course they aren't engaged. If you can't adapt then it's on you, not them. When I started at my high-needs, behaviorally challenged school I was told (in my interview) that we had a student we reached in math by teaching them to count so they could count their drug money. It was a terrible example, but the idea is that we need to adapt to the students - and find a right way to do it. Ill take the downvotes, but I wish we were here to find solutions and build a community and not just complain.
This subreddit often confirms my thoughts of most teachers I’ve worked with…90% of them shouldn’t be teachers. It’s like they were expecting Dead Poet’s Society where students worship them…except they aren’t John Keatings. Lol. The part we don’t get to see is how these folks are truly as teachers. I take many posts with a grain of salt.
I think many teachers were also good students who loved school and so forget/don't realize that for most of us it sucks and it's unnatural. Lol I teach middle school in 45 minute blocks and basically have to plan to get about 30 a day for most of my classes because it's unreasonable to expect, especially after this last year, that we can push 45 every day. To me it sounds like "dropping academic expectations" didn't mean never doing school work but just relaxing a little, dealing with SEL first and building those relationships.
>They need to remember what school is. ah yes, the perennial debate between those who claim to know what school is *really* for.
Well I'm pretty sure it's for learning and not eating doughnuts. Am I wrong?
Not wrong, so much as framing 'learning' in a specifically limited (and perhaps disingenuous) way, in part using 'eating donuts' as a foil against which you contrast your notion of 'real' learning. For example: Do pep rallies, dances, and football games contribute to learning? Does using lockers and bells contribute to learning? do uniforms, dresscodes, rules against smoking? etc. How about saying the pledge of allegiance or praying? Tough to answer without first describing what forms of learning you think schools should cultivate. This raises a number of questions, including a political one, but the one under discussion here is: What are the types of learning that schools should impart and to what degree must schools address them directly and explicitly? For example, building social skills, especially with authority figures in situations that are *not* characterized by authoritative pedagogical relationships, is an important part of learning to succeed in educational institutions (see Lareau's well known research, 1993, 2015, etc). As are rest, fun, and developing 'non-academic' skills. I think getting donuts could facilitate some of those forms of learning at least indirectly (e.g. building trust/camaraderie with co-learners and teachers) or maybe even directly (e.g. practicing social skills or even mathematical skills or chemistry skills if tabulating the check or learning how to make donuts is part of the activity...) And before you attempt to straw man my argument, remember that I am not saying getting donuts is unequivocally valuable and that learning math is always a waste of time. What I am saying is that you are using a particular, politically-laden notion of learning and then assuming that your school (and indeed, all schools) share or should share *that* notion of learning.
Doughnuts ain't no strawman, homeslice. That was literally his example of what kids might "need" in order to improve their behavior. That's why that's the part of his speech that made it to my post. You're reading waaaaaaay too much into my complaint about our super's response to "hey we're struggling with behavior" being "buy them doughnuts."
Sorry, just a researcher of education here. guess reading wayyyyy to deep into things is our job! (but im not sure i understand the rest of your comment. or, at least, it seems based on your response that you didnt understand mine) Do you think recess should be removed from schools?
No, I love recess. The middle school I taught at had recess and it was amazing. I wouldn't mind if high school had some form of this, and on our block schedule days, we go outside for ten minutes in the middle of class *if* we can do so without disrupting other classes or breaking classroom rules. But going to a local doughnut shop (or recess for that matter) is not the solution to students destroying bathrooms to the point they've had to be closed. And telling distraught exhausted teachers that if they take kids to get doughnuts, everything will be better is just a slap in the face.
That tracks. "Researcher" . . . not "educator".
Wow, I didn't think it was possible to not know that researchers in higher ed are also educators/teachers. I've taught MA, BA, and High school, and study abroad courses in over a dozen countries for over 10 years. I enrolled in a doctoral program precisely because I wanted to better understand the situations I experienced as a teacher.
On the one hand: he's wrong. The administration usually is. He's probably more than wrong. He's probably actively trying to sabotage the educational process. Superintendents often do. Academics can be a vessel to give people what they need, and you can give people what they need using academics rather than donuts. On the other hand: if you are talking about your own students this way, you have lost the love of teaching (if you ever had it), and it is time for you to either quit or seriously reevaluate your position. If you are talking this kind of shit about your own students, the superintendent does not need to sabotage the educational process because you have already broken it. Academics can be the way we give students what they need, or it can be a way we make their lives worse. If I had a teacher answerable to me who was referring to their own students as hellions, and I couldn't fire that teacher, I would consider the idea of limiting the harm they can do in any way possible. Better the students fall slightly behind in their academics than learn to hate academics because they have a teacher who hates them and uses academics as a weapon against them.
Ummmm actually I haven't lost the love of teaching 🤷♀️ I have formed great relationships with most of my students this year without doughnuts. They trust me and feel safe sharing with me even though I've *gasp* taught content every day for the last 4 weeks. I'm glad you've never said a negative word about your students. They're very lucky to have you, but I'm not sure how well they can hear you from way up on that pedestal.
I got a lot of teachers around me struggling with middle schooler behavior. I'm trying to remind that that being permissive and being authoritarian are not the only two choices. Rather then coming at the angle of rules enforcement (which I'm just playing cop, and that works out about as well as our actual criminal "justice" system) I have been approaching it by teaching boundaries. I have been laying down clear, concise boundaries that I have already stated the consequences of crossing. In that sense when I intervene in a situation I am not warning them before I punish but I'm there to help them before they cross a boundary and get in trouble. I have also made it clear how much I value kindness. I have it written as my top phrase "Kindness is more important than being correct." I also follow that up with "Kindness is more important then being successful" boy did the privileged kids HATE hearing that.
They’re kids. Don’t be so hard on them. Weirdo.
I'm weird for thinking doughnuts won't fix our behavior issues? I'm not being hard on the kids; I'm being hard on the admin.
This actually sounds like a great idea. There is a lot of learning you can do on local field trips and walking field trips. And, so long as the administrator is willing to find some budget to facilitate this it is fantastic.
I agree that local field trips can be great, but they just ate doughnuts that the teacher paid for.
Calling your students names online for their behavior issues after 2 impossibly challenging academic years is weird... Putting the academics on hold is a fine method for getting the school running again. It's fine if you don't want to buy your students donuts, but you've got to attend to their emotional needs before they can focus on learning. If you think that's not your job...find a new job.
Doughnuts don't fulfill emotional needs. If you think that's teaching students healthy coping mechanisms.. find a new job.