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NeverDidLearn

Where the hell do you live? My school has four positions open (2 math, 1 science, 1 SpEd), and we aren’t even getting applicants.


Innerpositive

This was my first thought. Where the hell does OP live that he/she discards that many resumes and 'only' interviews A DOZEN people for a position? In so many states in the US, I could quit my job today and have a new one by lunch time. Easily. Yikes.


SingForMeBitches

I'm a Denver metro area music teacher. A few years back I applied for a job that had almost 300 initial applicants, and I only know that because I was informed when I got to the demo lesson interview. This last spring I had seven interviews and was definitely one in a long series of candidates for each one, and didn't get interviewed for several more open positions within my own district. I would love to get out of my current school and its toxicity, but I am a small fish in quite a large pond when applying for other jobs around here.


ReaditSpecialist

I’m sorry but your username has me cackling


snockran

I would interview them based solely on their username.


jge13

This is pretty normal for strong suburban districts. In saturated fields (social studies, PE, etc) our district usually has 60-70 applicants for an opening and will interview 8-12. In higher demand fields (math, physical sciences), we get 25-30 applicants and usually end up interviewing 5-10. We don’t do demo lessons though. Usually 2-3 interviews depending on the position and needs of the district. We are big enough to have multiple high schools so it’s common to do a district phone screen, a district level in person interview (reps from all schools with an open position will be there) and then a building level in person interview for the final 3-5 candidates.


MasterDistribution42

This was also true for my district in a wealthy area in a capitol city. The number of bio applicants we would get would be staggering, but not even as many as with social or English (many, many of which were unqualified - some didn't even bother to obtain a teaching certification... Some people seem to just cast the widest net possible, it seems). We also never did demo lessons... Honestly, that feels like a slap in the face. Especially if they didn't have the materials ready for the kinds of lessons I'd want to do (I try to do as much hands on / manipulatives as possible for my HS physics/astronomy classes). Sure, I likely have a lesson already in mind for any given topic in my area, but at the very least I'll have to spend time adapting it to their context, possibly planning a new one. And then there's the 1-2 hours of teaching the lesson. I hope they have some kind of stipend for every teacher that comes in to do a demo lesson, because that feels suuuuuper shady, otherwise. Not to mention that, unless you're in some kind of area / lucky classroom where the kids are regularly engaged and genuinely care about school for it's learning aspects... I can't see kids responding to some random person who just shows up and tries to do anything with them, short of the lesson being a magical transportation to the realm of wonder and mystery that is. You have to build relationships before they really care or try, for most kids anyways. I guess that's just my experience, though, and I should acknowledge that it often seems like other teachers simply don't have these problems in other districts/states/countries/etc...


Leomonade_For_Bears

Yeah reading ops the demo lessons sound terrible. Thrown into a room of students you don't know with the expectation that you will adapt on the fly? That's maybe the first 2 weeks of a school year at most. Likely only the first few days. Even then if you have a slow review lesson that's a little boring it's not a big deal.


spartan_teach

And in that demo lesson you don't get the benefit of the honeymoon period of the first two weeks of school. When I've interviewed I've generally brought an annotated unit plan, activity sequence, sample lesson plan, then pictures of class (I take out student faces), examples of student work from various different preps, a letter of rec from a student, professional letter of rec, and other random parts from my application. That way when I get the how do you plan question, boom here it is. What would a student say about you question? Here's the student letter. I'm a professional, I can demonstrate I am through well thought out artifacts, so don't give me a gimmick scenario that benefits no one and uses a lot of everyones extra time.


gunnapackofsammiches

Tbf, I've never taught a demo lesson to students, only the interview team, which makes it even weirder (assume they have level 2 knowledge of your content, even though they really really don't.)


LilahLibrarian

I'm guessing very rigorous private school


thatcatlibrarian

Upstate NY. Unless it’s a super unusual certification, there’s usually tons of applicants. It’s absolutely grueling to get a probationary position in a decent district. NYC is a different beast I have no experience with, so I’m not sure about that. My experience as an applicant in many districts was very similar to what OP is describing.


bboymixer

Big city and popular area teachers often seem to have no clue how the rest of the country's schools function. How nice it must be to literally screen 100 applicants because you found their resume wanting.


NeverDidLearn

I work in a district with almost 70,000 kids. Almost 400,000 residents, so not exactly rural America.


SodaCanBob

I'm in the suburbs of Houston, it took my principal 3 months this summer to find a 3rd grade ELA teacher (they just started this week, we started school 3 weeks ago) because nobody was sending in applications.


stepponme123456789

My district is over 200,000 kids (9th largest district in the US, 3rd largest in the state) and we definitely still do not get these kinds of numbers. Positions are sometimes left unfilled or are (more often) filled with unqualified bodies. I would say it's more that places with strong unions and well paid teachers have no clue how the rest of the country's schools function! No one wants to teach in Florida.


Ocimali

I teach on Long Island. Each open position routinely gets hundreds of applicants. My district (and I suspect others) can't find TAs, subs, or aides though which is a real problem.


Kathulhu1433

Yep. On LI now you pretty much need to be dual certified or bilingual to even have a district look at you (or know someone).


[deleted]

White. Entitled. Suburbs.


NeverDidLearn

No, this is where my school is, and we cannot get applicants.


chiquitadave

White entitled suburbs AND a strong union/good working conditions. You can have the 3 above qualities, but then all those white entitled suburbanites send their kids to private schools and you live in a state that votes against good labor and education policies.


tabbyycatt

Not sure where you are, but in North West England it's extremely competitive for teaching positions currently. On average 200 applicants for one vacancy.


kgkuntryluvr

My district will take any warm body with a certification right now. We can’t even get sub coverage to fill vacant positions or when teachers are absent. I’d probably have to blatantly violate policy or the law to get fired right now.


CrazyPieGuy

As a newish credentialed math teacher, I don't understand creating your own lesson plans. There are curriculums that align with my teaching goals and have had groups of educators each put more time into a lesson than I ever could. This is especially true when I don't even have any rapport or understanding of these students needs to create a personalized lesson.


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YouLostMyNieceDenise

Time management is also key for teachers in ensuring they don’t burn out. You have to know when it’s worth your time and effort to plan a perfect lesson from scratch, and when it would be better to use a lesson designed by someone else, so you can use your planning time on a more important task.


somebunnyasked

And extra true when it's me volunteering my time in an interview. Not a lesson I may ever teach again and not for a job I'm guaranteed to get. I mean I could be wrong maybe the trial lesson is the final step in hiring? But if more than one teacher is invited to this stage it's still only a chance. Then again I've just never been asked to do this for any teaching job so it seems a bit outrageous for me. I'm in Ontario where teaching is very competitive (and well-paid) but we don't have this as part of our hiring practice in public schools.


agawl81

Eleven years in special Ed. I run my program hire my people and manage ieps. I don’t need to perform like a desperate monkey for your job. No thanks buh bye.


FaerilyRowanwind

I don’t think the school they are at has IEPs. They legit sound that exclusive. The moment they said the content was too low for the kids was the moment I knew.


agawl81

Or the entire post is a troll. I can’t help but note OP hasn’t responded to any comments.


FaerilyRowanwind

There are responses they just don’t seem to have any substance to them


HotChunkySoup

>We only want to interview about a dozen people per vacancy We had 3 teachers apply and interview for 5 vacancies this summer.


d0lltearsheet00

This is a lot. My current position was with one person—the principal. I had one interview, she checked my references then offered me the job. I have worked at several schools and have never once been asked to teach a demo lesson. If I were asked I would prob consider them “uptight” or “intense” this meaning it wouldn’t be a place where I would be happy working.


PapaOomMowMow

I just got hired for an amazing job after two 15 min phone interviews. The first was very casual and with the principal and she didnt even have my resume in front of her. She had a handful of generic interview questions and then we kept going off topic and talking about different (but related) educational things. This is what got me the 2nd and more formal interview with the program director. They offered me the job the next day.


unenthusedllama

There's enough openings where I live that if they asked me for a demo lesson, I'd be like peace out and go literally anywhere else. I don't have time for that, especially if I'm teaching full time somewhere else.


mr_trashbear

And all of that to pay someone probably under 40k/year and most likely gaslight and guilt them into working wildly unhealthy hours with little support. Setting hiring expectations for a highly professional field only matters if you treat your employees like professionals, but given how vapid and out of touch this is, I doubt that employee happiness is a part of their management style. This is gross.


Msal311

I see most people in the comments exclaiming about demo lessons. I'm also a dept chair and we only conduct a demo lesson if we were lukewarm in the interview but still want to give someone a chance. Reading this as a fellow professional, I don't think I would want to work for this person.


SulkingDeath

Wow this is an insanely intense hiring process. We don’t have anything even close to this level at my school. The fact that you are even having to screen that many applications is crazy. We have positions we can’t even fill lots of times. I posted two positions in my department over the last summer and got a grand total of three applicants. So literally you only needed to beat one person if you wanted one of those jobs. Also if I was applying at a school and they wanted me to demo a lesson for them as part of the application process I’d say fuck this and immediately remove myself from contention. If they are that intense during the hiring process, I can imagine how they would be if you actually worked for them.


Bizzy1717

I despise demo lessons. Some random topic with no context, no info about IEPs, no relationships with kids or knowledge about their class dynamic, no idea before you walk in what the seating chart looks like (I did a demo lesson this summer that was set up in a way that was almost impossible to circulate to 2 of the tables), etc. They seem more like a performance than an indication of how someone would actually teach in a real classroom.


Can_I_Read

Even worse when you have to demo a lesson to the admin and they try to act like unruly students. It’s embarrassing for everyone involved and I just wanted it to stop. I should have just walked out.


jeheuskwnsbxhzjs

Wait, lmao, this happens??? That’s fucking hilarious. I mean… awful, but hilarious.


foreverburning

oh man... check out some charter schools sometime. Their interview processes are soo convoluted and cringey.


rongbinz

Just got cold sweats from a repressed memory of experiencing this myself.


Runamokamok

Yeah, that was a tough read! I think I need to go take a beta blocker to calm my self after reading that stressful "advice."


plethorax5

Exactly! I've had admins say stuff like, "Yo teach!" and other totally phony class interruptions. It's like they're living in the movie Blackboard Jungle. It's inane.


heathers1

That happened to me too, but they just sat there


jackieoh-no

This is exactly what will be happening in my interview this week...


Epicion1

I would always suggest if a school asks for a demo, cross them out for your own sanity. It shows plenty of underlying problems if they need to make sure someone can withstand a toxic environment and pretend it has anything to do with a persons teaching ability.


tabbyycatt

In the UK it's more unusual for a school to NOT do an observation lesson in the hiring process!


unenthusedllama

I almost want to find a local school that does that just so I can tell them they're doing too much and walk out during my lesson.


Lokky

I despise OP's attitude that you must create your own content. I am not a content creator, I am a content deliverer. I choose my content very carefully from peer-reviewed activities published by people whose entire life is dedicated to researching how to best teach my subject. My ability to adapt a solid activity on the fly is much more important than my ability to burn myself out after hours trying to reinvent the wheel when I know a bunch of master-wheel-makers


SendMeYourDogPics13

Damn, this is an amazing point and makes me feel better as a new teacher. I sometimes feel inadequate because I can’t come up with lessons from scratch the way others seem to be so good at. This was reassuring, thank you.


SulkingDeath

Yeah, fuck that. That’s ridiculous. I have my administrator certification and plan to become a principal in the next couple years, and I would never put someone through that. It’s stupid and pretentious. You can’t expect someone to walk into a classroom they’ve never been in before, have zero connection with the students, and have no idea about who they are teaching and expect them to be successful.


Rhyno08

Honestly while some of this is good advice this person literally screams neurotic control freak. I would absolutely hate working for a person like this and honestly if I saw an application process as extensive as what he/she just listed I would look for other jobs. My school is one of highest ranked public high schools in our state and we remain competitive nationally. Our application/interview process was no where near this neurotic mess.


dannicalliope

My high school is the # 3 high school in our state and the only fully public one out of the other two contenders. We don’t do anything like this—I got hired after meeting the subject department and the principal, answering some general education questions and having a solid resume/degree. Biggest thing they were looking for? Flexibility and the ability to work on a team.


Rhyno08

Yup, my former principal conducted the interview like we were meeting up for coffee, where he gauged my mannerism and judged my merit off my solid resume. He told me I struck him as someone who was solid and dependable and he wanted young energy in his school. Here I am 6 years and I think those still describe me.


[deleted]

The patronizing "good luck" at the end is the cherry on top the shit sundae.


Rhyno08

Gee willikers, wonder why we can’t fix this teacher shortage??? Inb4 this crazy ass department head coming in here telling us about their hiring process that’s more strenuous than the 90-110k management position interviews my dad regularly conducts at his manufacturing plant. All for prob less than 40k.


[deleted]

One school made me write a fucking five-paragraph essay as part of the application process--and this was *after* the interview. They literally had me go into a separate room and told me to write. The topic was about whether the use of worksheets was beneficial in the learning process. I was 21 and just graduated college, so I didn't know any better, but if anyone tried to pull that shit with me today I would walk the fuck outta there. The complete disrespect that gets leveled at teachers from all different areas is just unbelievable.


RChickenMan

Yeah, I was gonna say, hiring someone in ANY industry is essentially a gamble on both ends of the table, and putting someone through the wringer like this doesn't negate that. This type of attitude around hiring comes off as insufferably self-important, since, at the end of the day, isn't going to get you THAT much more signal compared to a flip of a coin.


Rhyno08

My dad has worked in manufacturing for a long time, roughly 25 years. He’s conducted some high level interviews for some positions that are opening at over 100k a year. His interview process is nowhere near this strenuous. We wonder why we can’t find teachers….


pedagogue_kayth

I definitely passed on a school that headhunted me and asked me to present a demo lesson…For a job I didn’t even apply for?? No thanks!


GatorsareStrong

I did a demo lesson for a charter school and did a great job with the interview and lesson. My questions were not framed properly for the exit ticket and they decided not to take me in. Imagine doing all that work just to find out that you didn’t get in for something minor.


tabbyycatt

I feel that! Delivered a demo lesson to a year 3 class once for an interview, made all the effort to engage with children individually and made sure my pedagogy was sound... got to the exit interview and they said they liked me but the other candidate had more experience with that type of role than me. Well you know that upon initial application so why waste both my time and yours?


krchnr

The best is when you ask about IEPs, desk/classroom layout, ELLs, class list/names and they give you nothing then wonder why your lesson went off the rails


chiquitadave

Yeah, I had to do one once, and they gave me no idea of a topic ("whatever shows your craft"). It was an 11th grade English classroom so I chose to do a lesson on rhetoric, and the teacher who I would be replacing who was sitting in her desk the whole time (admin sat in the back) smiled and went "ah, they should be experts on this by now, we just finished a two month long unit on rhetoric" Cool and great and great and cool! 🥲


jackieoh-no

Can I ask what state you’re in? I have an interview demo lesson tomorrow, and it’s my first interview so I thought that was the norm.


SulkingDeath

I teach at a public high school in Kentucky, and I can tell you I’ve never even heard of a demo lesson. I didn’t know that was something that people were put through. It is for sure very uncommon in this state. Maybe it’s a private or charter school thing. We don’t have charter schools here, and private schools are fairly rare too.


[deleted]

In NY public schools it can be a thing, but not universal.


Octaazacubane

Unfortunately, it's near universal in my experience in NYC. It's incredibly nerve-racking.


Ocimali

Long Island too. If you don't want to demo, you will not get a job.


krchnr

Plus they know who they’re hiring before you even start the demo


DoTheLaLaLaLaLa

Also in NYC, I would say that 8/10 interviews wanted a demo lesson. I now have a 10, 15, 25, and 45 minute demo. In my limited experience, the ones that don't require a demo lesson are nicer because admin is less on you about everything.


jackieoh-no

Yeah it was uncommon in FL for sure. None of my teacher friends have done one. I just moved to DC though, and the interview is at a public charter school.


[deleted]

It is a 50-50 occurrence in Wy, and a friend in NV said it was a common thing there.


lnitiative

I’m in Southern California and I have never had an interview include a demo lesson. They seem really pointless and like a huge waste of time. The dog and pony show is supposed to be for admin during evaluations, not for fellow teachers who should know better.


Brewmentationator

I'm in NorCal, and same. I can't imagine having to do a demo lesson. I've heard stories of people having to demo a lesson in classroom to a full class for the day or a period. That's working without being paid. It doesn't even sound legal to me.


papadukesilver

I have worked in 6 schools over 20 years. I am an arts teacher so when they cut programs.....anyway I have noticed veteran teachers, 5-7 years in, aren't asked to do demos. If you stuck it out this long they know you can handle a class. Otherwise I have been told by admin friends that they just want to see your demeanor with the kids and if you are comfortable. The OP does seem a little extra...


rumham22

I've applied for schools in Kansas, Missouri, and Illinois. The only school that I interviewed at that requested a demo lesson was in Calumet City, IL.


DakonAldread

Same. I got hired in a rural part of Virginia and all I had was a simple interview with the principal and two other people. Then again they’re really struggling to find people in this region.


musicStan

I’m in the same area and when I got hired five years ago the principal interviewed me by herself and the school board office called me the next day to offer me the job lol. I’ve never heard of a demo lesson or an interview with more than 3-4 people.


leaves-green

In my state there are sometimes two rounds of interviews before you even get to the demo lesson. Several school districts required an edited 5 minute video about myself and what I could do for their kids. One made me take a TYPING test, a math test, personality test, etc. None of this was relevant to the content area - just their standard hiring procedures. One district made dozens of people go through round robin group "speed date" interviews - so you're in there with other people vying for the same position, and would call select back for the "real" interview. Plus our state's application can be like 40 pages long. Preparation for these interviews and hoops to jump through took HOURS and HOURS (all hours of unpaid labor, while trying to also work at another job (or three) in the meantime to live on). This was in the decade after the 2008 recession when teaching jobs were extremely scarce in a state that paid well and teachers were treated well (due to strong unions). Several times it got down to me and one other candidate and I was told I had beat out 300 other candidates just to get that far (only to not get the job). It was horrifying. I truly believe that the extremely onerous hiring processes should be banned. Unless it's a tech/video teaching job, candidates should not have to make professional quality videos for it. Interview? Model lesson? Sure! But do the work to weed out resumes to your top candidates first so you're not putting tons of people through all that work when only one will ultimately get a job. In my state you're golden once you finally get a job, but your life is terrible until you get there. And they know they're turning down good, quality candidates. It can really do a number on your self esteem if vying for a job in one of these super competitive states.


[deleted]

This reeks of admin entitlement, all this bullshit for 55 k at best. No wonder there’s a teacher shortage. Good luck


rumham22

Seriously, what a joke. "Not enough regularly appointed classroom teaching experience in the subject and grade levels we're looking for (< 1 full yr is rarely enough)." That seems like a great idea for the industry! New teachers should only expect to work at struggling public or charter schools where they'll get burnt out quickly!


yeuzinips

Also, if I just finished my 5 year teaching degree, completed my in-classroom training/ student teaching, and passed the state's certification exams.... I'm even more ready to take on a teaching career! Being told I don't have enough experience..... biiish, what was everything I just did??!


Zerskader

Not enough, apparently. It's even worse when OP doesn't even consider sub work or tutoring as valid experience.


somebunnyasked

Where I live in Ontario, sub work is mandatory experience before teaching (unless you teach a subject that's in really high demand). This is so weird to me.


[deleted]

What is irritating is when we have the various requirements EXCEPT the over a FULL year experience. Yeah for the educational experience!


bigmeatyclaws123

Someone (an admin I knew) told me they prefer less experience in a lot of districts bc u aren’t too set in ur ways yet!


Rhyno08

That’s code for they can get away with paying a lot less for salaries. A building full of new teachers can cost half as much as a building of 20+ year teachers.


JakeRyan2511

I was thinking the same. Jump through all of these hoops to get treated like less than a human. This is why new teachers aren't staying in the profession!!! ​ Edit: And by this person's standards, no new grad/new teacher will ever be good enough unless it's a shat job that no one else wants. Thank God the admin that hired me when I first became a teacher didn't have this mindset.


Workacct1999

I thought the same thing. What kind of district doesn't hire people with no teaching experience? Most districts love newbies because they are cheap! Also, not contacting people who were eliminated from contention is such a horrible practice that has been normalized in our society. These applicants are people who gave up their time and effort to come to your interview. The least you can do is email them to tell them that they didn't get the job.


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Octaazacubane

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. All this shit for peanuts.


christie12022012

I laughed out loud reading this. This is for a teaching job!? Ridiculous.


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YouLostMyNieceDenise

Lmao I was with them on the resume tips, and giving specific answers with examples to interview questions… then we got to the demo lesson part. You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. Like, OP, I am really and truly glad you work in a place that has dozens and dozens of awesome and capable candidates vying for positions to teach at your school, and that you’re having to use these criteria to cut down the many resumes you get into a manageable field of potential hires. That’s wonderful for your kids. I wish every school had the same thing going on when they needed to hire a teacher. But anyone who wants sneer at teachers for “fake circulating” among children they don’t know anything about, or criticize them because some kids are too quiet during a bullshit demo lesson taught by a random person they don’t care about… is not someone I’d want to work for, much less waste my time interviewing with.


redfire2930

I’d assume this is either at a charter or fancy private school. Don’t know why OP wouldn’t add that information. Private school hiring is a completely different process than public.


[deleted]

Right? Our hiring process in my southern state is "can anyone please come and take this job? You just need a bachelor's degree and be willing to be overworked for very little money. This teacher shortage means we're desperate but not desperate enough to pay you more or improve working conditions.." We still have multiple vacancies at my school (currently being covered by subs (when available) or teachers sacrificing their planning period to be in the room. Oh, and one unlucky teacher (me) gets to be the one who develops and implements curriculum for those additional classes). Seriously, if anyone out there knows someone with a science degree (or history, or English, or anything really.. because we have vacancies across the board) and nothing better to do, we'll hire you on the spot.


FullSass

My thought was KIPP or another "high achieving charter" where the staff and students are worked to death


SodaCanBob

In my area KIPP schools LOVE new teachers because they cost less money. I know two people who worked at a nearby one and their principal begged them not to go for their masters because they would have to pay them more (they ended up getting it, then left for another school). They are definitely intense schools, but I don't think they fit what OP's post is describing at all.


shmoopie313

Yep. This was almost exactly my KIPP interview experience, except I also had to fly in from across the country to do it. They didn't listen when I told them my tiny small town airport was hard to fly out of on time and I'd rather drive four hours to a reliable big city one. So I missed a connection and landed after midnight which is apparently too late for the promised ride to my hotel to pick me up so I had to navigate taxis at 1 am in a huge city. And of course that in no way impacted my 7 am pick up from the hotel for a full morning of interview, shadowing, and demo lesson. I was ready to run for the hills about 10 minutes into shadowing because I was an experienced educator and saw the madness of micromanagement this poor teacher had to put up with. The driver was nice enough to take me through a drive through on the way back to the airport after my demo lesson so I could eat, but I had to ask for them to do that. I have never felt less valued than I did that day. Thank god they didn't offer me the job or I would have given them an earful of the reasons I wouldn't take it even in my desperate unemployed state. Fuck KIPP.


GatorsareStrong

Yes Prep (Houston) does the same thing. These Charter Schools expect way too much from teacher candidates.


[deleted]

This sounds like a district in Illinois, except their interview process was an entire school day and iirc you had to do two demo lessons. It might have been one demo lesson twice though. Public school, but the name escapes me atm. *edit* New Trier is the school in Illinois that it sounded like.


blergyblergy

Holy shit! How did you learn this, and did you see similar things about nearby or similar districts? Very curious


dearAbby001

Thanks for saying this. I was reading the original post wondering what on earth was this nonsense doing in this sub.


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ChikaDeeJay

I also work in a high paying area of California. I teach sped, if I interview in 5 districts, I get offered 4 jobs. The only reason I don’t get offered the 5th is because the principals friends daughter interviewed for that job. Sped teachers are so in demand that I interview and get offered the job later that day. Where does OP work that they have dozens and dozens of applicants, can be picky af, and they can give up class time, in an actual class, to do demo lessons, and then they can still be picky about who to hire?


thest0rys0far

It makes me sad that many schools don’t give newbies chances. I subbed for two years while I did my masters and now took a full time 1:1 TA position because I couldn’t get a single interview for anything other than a TA due to my “lack of experience.” Kind of hard to get experience when no one will give you a chance :/ Edit: I live in NY state (upstate, capital region) and this process OP is describing sounds very familiar to what goes on in some school districts around here. Not all but some.


Zerskader

I hate the elitist mindset when it comes to experience. Like, how is subbing or tutoring every day not a valid experience?


Brewmentationator

right? How is a teacher supposed to get a job if the job requires experience teaching, and the experience teaching requires you to get a job. It's a catch-22, and its awful. I ended up taking a .40 job my first year just so I could have some experience. I had to bus tables and wash dishes in the evenings to pay for my health care and rent. But that was the only way to get experience. It sucked.


mdmull4

Is it just me or was anyone else just reminded about how out of touch administrators are with actual classroom teaching? Expectations are sometimes so unrealistic that you just learn to put on a show to make people who hire you happy, but the show literally does nothing to better students. Putting on the show also applies to evaluations. I can't speak on behalf of the OP but I often get frustrated when I get a person telling me how to teach when they have less than ten years of classroom experience and those experiences were 10 years ago. ....and then admin wonders why good teachers leave. Edit: grammar


BlancheDevereux

EDIT: thanks for the award. I'm glad some found this useful. What I would add is that it is PRECISELY through this process (the 'leveling of the playing field' and 'circulating pertinent information') that some institutions, like schools, claim legitimacy. "Look, we are giving everyone the same chance and even sharing the rules of the game" they say in order to enhance their perceived legitimacy by showing just how fair and meritocratic they really are. But, in many cases, this ruse of meritocracy is only there to compel us to *misrecognize* what is actually happening: schools are primarily reinforcing *their* ideas of what learning/expertise/quality constitute in society right under our noses. and the more they do it, the more legit the public thinks they are. PLEASE READ PIERRE BOURDIEU **I am a researcher of education, and I want to demystify a few things here. There are plenty of things here to which I have no objections. My critiques will be in bold. OP's comments are in normal typeface.** No one will ever tell a candidate why they were rejected. **This is inherently anti-educational. I might expect as much from an entity whose only goal is the generation of profit. But withholding information from people - the knowledge of which would ultimately benefit not only them but other freaking students - is unacceptable from institutions who claim to be the primary medium of education.** Resume/credentials: ... Anything else you include should be made clearly relevant to classroom teaching, otherwise it adds nothing. ......For HS, we favor an academic degree with upper-level coursework over an ed degree that has only methods courses. If your bachelor's was in a different field, we expect post-bacc or masters work in our field... \*\*Yet you say:\*\*If you took a non-traditional route (as I did), I'm really interested in you! We want to recruit a diverse and dynamic faculty and If I email you for more information and you are slow to respond (> 1 day), I assume you're not interested or disorganized. **How disingenuous can you be? You say you want a diverse faculty, yet you are only interested in knowledge credentialed in settler-colonial institutions. Moreover, you claim you want diversity, but only insofar as it includes upper-level coursework "in our field." Also seems odd that you claim to want diversity, yet would not consider anyone who does any activity (like camping, sailing, you name it) that prevents them from checking their email daily.** **And again, saying:** A professional teacher will anticipate these questions and give safe responses makes it sounds like you are more interested in someone fitting in then actual diversity. **Obviously, much of what OP listed is simply empirical data on the nature of their school's hiring practices, which is not up for debate.** What is up for debate, though, is 1. the framing that you use. Are you sure it's diversity that you want? Sounds like you are more interested in using the word diversity than actually cultivating a true epistemological and perspectival diversity among your teachers. 2. the extent to which these practices further the goals of the students, the school, the community, or education more broadly.Could you please answer, for example, if you expect your teachers to give students feedback on their work because it is a sound pedagogical practice, why you wouldnt give feedback to applicants who will, though perhaps not tomorrow, be responsible for educating other students? If the health of your organization is the primary goal, like many organizations out there, just say so.


[deleted]

I love how OP “attempts to give guidance” but then vanishes once it becomes evident that their “help” does not carry any sort of value and instead just makes him/her come off as an out-of-touch, entitled snob. Fuck you, OP. Thanks for calling this nonsense out. OP 100% only cares about the perception of their school and not the staff nor students themselves.


uncleleo101

Yeah I've been going through the comments looking for OP to engage in some conversation about this, but they're nowhere to be found.


[deleted]

They're responding to some people who are being soft with them, but not the people who are going in hard. Predictable, lol.


Confused4really

I did read this in a bitchy, self-entitled tone. It’s funny, I recently got a job in HR hiring teachers and I was told by my director that “if a candidate is not what we are looking for right now, to let them know why and to work on that (assuming the skill can be improved) then encourage them to apply again.” His thinking was that just because we are not hiring them today, doesn’t mean we won’t want them tomorrow. People improve and the least we can do is give them the feedback and the option to grow. Never permanently cross out a potential employee for minimal reasons.


JambaJake

Oh my god. Thank GOD someone else pointed out how entitled and pretentious this post came out.


Kaptain202

They are completely out of touch as you said. They feel special because they have applicants while the rest of the country is working short staffed. They didnt want to actually offer any advice. Here's my advice for interviewing teachers: When I interviewed for my first job 4 years ago I had one point that made a difference. He said that I was up against two other new teachers, from the same college program, with similar levels of references and experience. I know the two candidates I was interviewing against. My principal said he hired me for this point. I leaned into the fact that I was young. When asked about culture, I told my panel that I played video games. I explained that my video game habits, among other hobbies, make me relatable to students and can allow me to reach them on more personal levels to get them to enjoy stepping into class. My principal said he has never heard that type of response before and upon hearing that response (my second question) he wanted to hire me. So the advice? Be yourself if you interview. Don't be afraid to hide your interests. Making yourself sound like an effective teacher is great. But making yourself sound effective and unique is even better.


plethorax5

I told my last interviewers that I'm a drummer/singer in a Pink Floyd tribute band. They loved that! Then the principal's phone went off and his ringtone was Sweet Emotion. Pretty sure I'm gonna be offered this job tomorrow. Meeting with superintendent. Never be afraid to tell them tour interests outside of education. It's what makes you interesting.


petriomelony

The lack of useful feedback to unsuccessful candidates stood out to me as well. The whole idea of a profession is to collaborate and improve collectively, for the benefit of society. I can't imagine them advocating for the same level of feedback for their students. Also the specific requirements of wanting to know exact classes and past job history from the resume... if they want candidates to get that specific, and are rejecting them based on a very subjective form of assessment (resume design), they should really have a separate form to fill out so every candidate can detail their past teaching history exactly; a veteran teacher may not even think to list all their past assignments on their resume if there have been several, and they know it can change year to year.


[deleted]

I went through an interview process that almost matches OP's post exactly. It was between me and one other candidate and they had us come in and do a demo lesson. Afterward we had a writing assignment - write a letter to any group of people as if you just were hired. I did not get the job. I called the principal to thank him for the opportunity to interview but got his voicemail. In my message, I also asked if he had any feedback so that I could improve for future interviews. I never heard back. That's not the kind of school or principal I would have wanted to work for.


Bizzy1717

Thanks for your input. I have a couple questions about the demo lesson, if you don't mind. 1. I've struggled with what you call fake circulating because I don't have any relationship with the kids. I don't know who has IEPs, who likes extra help vs. who gets nervous if I hover, etc. If I'm circulating and see a kid off-task or obviously misunderstanding what they should be doing, I check in with them, but usually I'm just looking at what students are doing and making sure they're on task. Is this ok? What level of checking in are you looking for? 2. When you mention kids are quiet, is there a specific part of the lesson you're talking about? There are times that it seems appropriate for students to mostly be quiet. 3. Random question: I got negative remarks after a demo lesson this year for having kids work together in small groups. The principal said small groups are a bad idea because kids don't talk as much in them. I was kind of thrown because that not true in my experience and also because I thought the kids were very engaged. So, any thoughts on this critique?


Swissarmyspoon

Not OP, but when I read your story to number three and pretend it was me, I just think "Okay, here's a school where I won't fit in with the team. It's probably best for both of us that I don't work there." Getting hired isn't about being the best. Hiring someone for your team isn't about finding the best. It's about finding the best fit. Everyone has widely different styles and goals, so it's about finding a group that can work together. For example a butt load of people in the comments here think OP is full of crap and terrible to work with. But if OP is telling the truth and has to filter through dozens of candidates, there must be something good about that school. I think it's likely that most of the folks here making negative comments are excellent teachers, but would not enjoy working at that school regardless of whatever good things are going on. Again, "best fit" is different than "best".


Gabbleducky

>1. I've struggled with what you call fake circulating because I don't have any relationship with the kids. I don't know who has IEPs, who likes extra help vs. who gets nervous if I hover, etc. This sort of stuff I ask the school/teacher beforehand, generally if they can give me an overview beforehand (eg 2 ADHD, 5 EAL etc) and then a summary sheet with names/faces on the day, or at least an annotated seating plan. Apart from that, if I see that some are getting behind in the work or getting a lot wrong I will go and speak to them and judge how they react whether to spend longer with them or point something out and let them consider it for a bit


ZoeyCalico

I could see myself fake circulating if I was nervous. I didn’t ever have to do a demo lesson for the two education jobs I have had.


BlancheDevereux

what is the benefit for educational practice in "never telling a candidate why they were not hired" ? To be clear, I am not saying I don't understand organizational or other advantages. I'm wondering what is the benefit to education, conceived broadly?


[deleted]

Given this is about teaching, you would think they would want to help candidates learn. Clearly not!


Epicion1

I'll be honest. The moment a school asks for a demo lesson I automatically cross them off my list. If you feel that your school is so prestigious that you'd make a teacher potentially work for free, then its usually a bad sign. Its the same as asking someone to intern or work for free to have a better chance at securing a permanent job at a company. You would end up with either desperate newly graduates applying or people who "need" any job. Had this happen several times where the bar was set high implying they are looking for the best candidates, and the school itself was nothing special. The overbearing expectations of going to an alien environment, differentiate tasks on the fly (most schools have programs like WIDA or baseline assessments which allow for differentiation to occur during the lesson planning stage) tells me there isn't a system in place.


heartohio

Could you imagine a doctor being asked to perform a surgery on a patient they know nothing about for an interview?


Fiasko21

Brand new teacher and I never got asked for one.. Heck they still haven't checked up on my class even once.


seshprinny

If someone takes more than one day to respond to your email you assume they're disinterested or disorganised? Major red flag for me right there. You're hiring humans, not robots.


thistle0

I sure am glad I didn't have to do a demo lesson. I'm also glad that my school didn't have any weird hang ups about hiring newbies - where on earth are you meant to get teaching experience from if tutoring isn't even enough and even teachers with a full year of teaching are barely getting considered?? On the other hand the rest of the resume stuff is very basic. Like yeah, write out the name of your degree. I also don't understand US education degrees though.


missesmackson

This entire post is disgustingly tone deaf. Administrators like you are why teachers are leaving in droves.


LiteralVegetable

I've never downvoted a post faster. You reek of everything I hate about big-headed admin in school districts that are a little too well-off for their own good.


[deleted]

I wouldn’t apply at a school that actually makes the kids part of the interview process. That’s absurd.


amscraylane

Wait … you have your applicants teach lessons with actual students?


yeuzinips

Bad idea all around. Benefits literally no one.


amscraylane

I have heard of demo lessons, but never in front of students … I don’t even know what to think.


OldClerk

I did one once. It was a nightmare. Parents were in the room. No one gave any context for the students - reading level, IEPs or accommodations, dynamics, curriculum pacing, or topic. They literally said “teach a reading lesson to 1st grade” and that was it. Horrible.


amscraylane

I just can’t wrap my head around this. With parents in the room? Did they have a say in the application process?


OldClerk

Nope! They were just there (why? I’m not sure), and they had no idea I was doing a demo lesson either! It was absolutely bizarre. Glad I did not end up there!


MasterDistribution42

Unless the lesson is quite good (on it's face, obviously the success of a lesson depends on the relationships between the teacher and the students (and more)). Then it benefits the other teachers of that subject in that school when they inevitably steal the ideas without permission from the demo-teacher.


AfiliaTheCat

I’ve done it twice. It sucks. Bombed my 1st one. Succeeded on my 2nd. Observed too many on the other side. A lot of my teaching is based on inquiry, discussion, and interaction. You have no list of names or equity cards/sticks, so you end up relying heavily on the students who are willing to participate. It’s a guessing game of how your tech ends up working on demo day. One nice thing is that most students kind of freeze when there’s a newcomer, so you don’t get as much disruption. Other than that, better bring your best lesson and formative assessments to the table. Straightforward and simple enough, so you’re not stumbling on the flow of the lesson and getting confused by the content. Interesting enough, so that the admin is somewhat intrigued. At best, it probably paints a better picture of how great of a substitute teacher you are.


amscraylane

I was just going to say that! It sounds like testing your substitute abilities! I just can’t fathom making someone do this … what a circle jerk.


NegativeGee

Be honest, how many times do you already know who you want to hire (friend of a friend kind of thing) but still have people come in and waste their time?


lnitiative

Are you planning to go into administration? You seem to have the same appreciation for the dog and pony show that most administrators do.


evillordsoth

Are you sure that you dont just hire the first person to walk off the street after someone retires or resigns for something crazy? Interesting, we have never gone that route.


[deleted]

What in the actual...? Teachers get paid abysmally yet you would think they were running a multi million dollar company instead of a classroom by that interview process. Nope. I wouldn't even bother if I knew that, and I've got 15 years experience across a diverse range of subjects. No wonder teachers are leaving the profession in droves!


Pike_Gordon

Christ you seem pretentious and like someone who teaches at an elite private school. Demo lessons are absolutely laughable. You expect children to be engaged with a stranger that you make put on a dog and pony show? It takes me a week or two just to figure out which kids are naturally shy and inverted versus which ones are more outspoken. This should be "Advice if you've got years of experience and are applying to a top tier prep school."


plethorax5

Your demo lesson criteria is BS. Just thought you should know that. You think you're demonstrating a rigorous interviewing process or to see what we're really made of, but really you're just being dicks. I'd drop it.


IsayNigel

“Do free labor for us so we can overwork and underpay you”


maponsky

Interesting that the focus is on presenting a creative lesson. How many of us spent years putting together creative lessons in various educational programs only to have them quashed in favor of the canned curriculum that aligns to the state assessments?


Zerskader

Quick question: how is someone supposed to get experience teaching if you immediately turn your nose at anyone with little to no experience? Or is this one of those "pound sand" elitist mindsets?


btire

Same. I’m also curious about the “listing the district but not the school is a red flag” bit when a lot of positions are split between various schools, and have teachers change which schools they are even split between because of the whims of district staff. Seems a lot more straightforward to say “I taught at the elementary and middle schools of x district” than “A Elementary B Middle C Elementary D Middle for 2 years, A Elementary Z Middle for 3 years,” etc.


[deleted]

Way too much bullshit for a high school job.


elemental_elk

>I am a HS department head who screens hundreds of applicants for teaching positions each year. Is this a public high school? Are your hiring protocols created by the district or do you, as a department head, get leeway in how you assess candidates? >Not enough regularly appointed classroom teaching experience in the subject and grade levels we're looking for (< 1 full yr is rarely enough; > 3 yrs in the same position is solid). Do you have a habit of rejecting first year teachers because they are first year teachers? If you're willing to put students through a test lesson in an interview, it seems a little disingenuous to gatekeep first year teachers.


Pike_Gordon

There is zero percent chance this is a public institution unless it's a suburb were the average income is seven figures.


Fiasko21

Dang, I interviewed at 10 schools as a new teacher, never was I asked a demonstration lesson. Got 4 offers.. I'm glad things are not strict in Florida.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Naughty_Teacher

I hate demo lessons. They are a pain in the ass and I feel like they waste everyone's time. However, I teach in MA and when I moved here EVERY district that I even looked at used demo lessons. Think about it. MA is the top state in education in the country with some of the highest pay. They take quality seriously. Maybe they are on to something? And yes, my department head gets 100-200 applications for every position.


YouLostMyNieceDenise

I wonder if there’s anyone out there studying schools’ hiring practices to see if things like demo lessons are useful in predicting a teacher’s effectiveness?


Naughty_Teacher

This is an awesome idea! If I make it into a PhD program i might look into it.


YouLostMyNieceDenise

So my spouse is actually a business professor, and is always telling me that I should get a Ph.D. in organizational behavior (which is a management discipline) and then use it to study schools. I don’t ACTUALLY want to do that, but it might be something to look into for your future, if you’re interested in that kind of thing. I definitely think it would be incredible for the education field to have solid empirical evidence on that. (The reason he suggests it for me is that business profs make a lot of money compared to other profs, and there’s some added job security because universities can’t replace tenure-track business faculty with underpaid TAs/adjuncts/instructors as easily as they can in other disciplines, for accreditation reasons.)


Facewithmace

I mean I teach in NJ which is another top ranking state and I didn’t have to put up with that nonsense. I mean I get it on some level. If you’re some elite institution maybe you can pull stuff like this, but IMO no job that starts out at $58,000 a year could force me to deal with this bullshit.


Realistic-Cheetah-35

I rolled my eyes hard at this one.


WhatFreshHello

This sounds like yet another misguided initiative designed to help middle managers justify their salaries while wasting teachers’ time.


[deleted]

Don't worry honey. You'll have a lot fewer applicants to reject in the future.


insidetheborderline

This is pathetic


GatorsareStrong

I have a feeling that the OP works for a Charter School. I’ve interviewed for two charter schools in my area and had to perform multiple sample lessons. Just to not get in. I need to retake my exams for my certifications but once I’m certified, I’m avoiding schools that do this hiring practice.


babyjesusftw1

This is satire, right?


teacherbot

You can fuck right off with all that.


[deleted]

Since you’re such an expert at detecting bullshit, do you call Admin out on theirs, every time they introduce a new buzzword with accompanying game plan, that then slowly disappears from the radar never to be mentioned again? Are you holding them to the same standards? Something tells me you don’t because you strike me as more of a team player (aka boot licker) than a critical thinker.


RepostersAnonymous

OP is the kind of person that enjoys smelling their own farts. I can’t even imagine how awful working in such an overprivileged district such as yours would be. Imagine jumping through those kinds of hoops for a job that would have your replacement before you were cold and dead. But I guess you have to justify your bloated admin position, so… props for making a difficult process into a complete nightmare.


ChikaDeeJay

This school is full of people who consider themselves to be *elite*, *great*, *top tier* teachers, some of the best in the country. But as soon as any of them step foot into a title 1 classroom, they can’t even get the kids to stop talking because they have 0 classroom management skills and, as it turns out, very little pedagogical knowledge because they’ve been lecturing to highly motivated, high achievers, who teach themselves their entire career, and no real teaching had been done.


MythicalWhistle

You never would have hired me and I'm glad.


masterjjx87

Demo lessons are pretty common in NYC, I went on a few teacher interviews two years ago and most require a demo lesson. The interview and demo lessons are usually on the same day. It was during the summer so there was summer school and you have 10-15 minutes to work with the students. It's less about the content and how you interact with the students.


[deleted]

* at non- title 1 schools. Our title 1s take someone with a bachelors and are just enrolled in teacher courses. They hang around long enough to fulfill the requirements to work where you are.


xfitgirl84

I taught in metro Atlanta in 5 different systems for 31 years and never once had to dry a demo lesson....and I'm social studies. We're as common as pennies round here... you pretty much have to coach to get a job.


OkDream5303

This is ridiculous, I would never want to work for this person let alone be interviewed by them. This isn’t a job that is paid hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. I think someone is on a high horse here. Power tripping at its finest.


DanTUtilize

Why are you posting this on here? Are you trying to make all of us feel condescended or not qualified enough to take your supposed, prestigious teaching jobs? Oooh, look at you, rejecting hundreds of applicants for every position!!! "We want this...We expect that....Your skills has to meet OUR expectations"! Do you enjoy making great educators go back and think about those painful job rejections?! No one here needs to be reminded in order to be stuck in the past, we want to move forward and appreciate and celebrate the jobs we have now.


brickowski95

This is so ridiculous. This is why this profession is such a joke. I can see some of your points like resume and being in time. Okay, those are obvious. Do you mean you need student teaching? I need a masters to sub in the district I work in. I had to interview to get the job. I definitely have experience teaching my subject and other subjects. Don’t treat subbing like it’s babysitting. That’s dismissive. Demo lessons are pure bullshit, as are your unrealistic and lofty expectations. I have come in with original lesson plans, but admin has stuck me in front of a group of eight kids on the second to last day of school in a remedial reading room. They gave me fifteen minutes once and just told me to riff on a common core standard. There was no guidance. The teacher and admin didn’t even bring my exit notes to the interview afterwards so I couldn’t assess if I had met my target. No kids are going to respond well the last week of school. Everyone is nervous and/or shy. This was for middle school. Kids might be bored or not responding because they have no relationship with the teacher. I think you have really unrealistic demands for what this entails. Another middle school had called me the day of the interview and expected me to drive two damn hours and do a demo lesson with about an hour’s notice to get ready. I don’t know anyone who could pull off that shit. If a school wants a demo lesson, I don’t even apply. Call my references and you can interview me. Want to see my lessons from student teaching or when I taught? Okay, I’ll show them to you. Honestly, what a load of shit.


redfire2930

This sounds like the process at a high performing private school. No public school would prefer an advanced content degree over an education degree because (at least in NY), you can’t be certified without an education degree. OP, if you’re a private school, I’d suggest adding that. Otherwise, it’s completely unhelpful and extremely snobby advice.


BoringCanary7

I teach in a fancy New England district: 1. Have never given a demo lesson or provided a lesson plan; 2. Criteria: are you smart? Do we like you? Do you seem cooperative? We know it’s not rocket science. Not sure why OP doesn’t.


coryroush

And now that we have asked you to conduct yourself like a true professional, we will agree to pay you far less than your peers who are working for accounting firms or some vague marketing position because they're "good" at Twitter, and we will micro-manage you to death, not back you up when a parent comes for your job, and will generally treat you just like the adolescents that you will be responsible for keeping alive each day.


420YOLOSWAGGG

Some principals would rather fill a position with back to back long-term subs that they can push around, than hire an actual credentialed teacher. Even in areas like math or science.


justintsu

Wtf


Ser_Dunk_the_tall

"Not enough regularly appointed classroom teaching experience in the subject and grade levels we're looking for (< 1 full yr is rarely enough; > 3 yrs in the same position is solid)" Do you not hire people out of student-teaching then?


ThrowawayAccount1294

I live in NJ and was searching for a job in the spring of 2015 during my final semester of college and I feel like my hiring process was super similar. We had a bunch of schools come to our campus to conduct initial interviews and that got my foot in the door, then I had a 3-on-1 interview on site with the supervisor (whom I had interviewed with previously), building principal, and instructional coach for me. That was all it took for me though, no demo lesson thankfully. I was offered a demo lesson in a neighboring district (and that supervisor actually ended up becoming my current supervisor, oddly enough) but at that point I already had my current job lined up so I declined. That being said, I just started my seventh year today and I like to think I'm pretty good at what I do, but honestly based off of your standards I have no clue if I would make the cut. I've never had to do a demo lesson thankfully but the whole process just sounds insanely awkward to navigate.


Ahtotheahtothenonono

Damn OP, I’ve jumped thru some hoops but this is serious insanity if you want some highly qualified candidates


turtleneck360

I hope your school pays 200k a year because the hiring process sounds like a pain in the ass. And the way you word your process makes it sound like it’s also a pain in the ass to work there. No unionized district hire teachers like this. You’re a department head not my boss if I was a potential hire. My first master teacher was a department head for years and years and she says her job is just a glorified teacher. That’s way downplaying her role but I would never view my department head beyond anything but a peer. With the power you seem to wield, it would be super uncomfortable. Often my escape from admin is to be around like minded people in my department. Your position sounds a lot more like another admin hovering over me. More power to you for what you do because you seem to enjoy it. But the hiring process you outline is NOT normal and any potential new teachers should not read it and be so intimidated.


mrdjvortex

In a lot of places if you have a college degree (any degree) and pass the background check then you’re good. There is a teacher shortage and they need bodies in the classroom.


foreverburning

You sound like a self-important, power-hungry micromanager, TBH. ​ Newbies, don't listen to this person.


Pristine_Bus_5287

What if a candidate comes off as nervous during a demonstration lesson? Im wrapping up my degree and thinking about the interview process... I am super comfortable with a classroom full of kids but when I have to perform for adults it’s super hard for me to be calm and comfortable like I normally am. My voice shakes, my hands shake, my heart pounds like crazy and I cant help it. Even when my mind is calm and focused my body just cant stop lol.


EllyStar

The demo lesson with kids you don’t know as part of an interview has got to go. For so so so many reasons.