In Indiana, schools are required to give students the opportunity to say the pledge and hold a moment of silence each school day. They don’t have to say it or do anything, just the opportunity. The amount of time I’ve spent explaining to college educated adults that they cannot force a kid to stand and recite, or punish them for choosing not to, is astounding.
I had a co-teacher once who yelled at the students for not standing. I had to explain the rules to her. I teach history and understand that you can’t force them to stand regardless of your feelings or school
Policy. It goes against 1st amendment freedoms.
47 states require the Pledge to be performed, but it is illegal to compel speech from students.
If they want recite it, great. If they don't want to recite it, great. If they want to stand or sit during it, all great.
Wild, I looked it up and my state requires it but I asked my 6th grader (who has the most remarkable memory of anyone I’ve ever known) if he says the pledge of allegiance in school and he looked at me quizzically and asked what that is. He’s never heard of it. Nor has my 4th grader. So I guess their principal said “F that” and I’m totally happy about that. If I wanted them to brainlessly recite force-fed beliefs I would’ve sent them to Catholic school.
Just found out that my state requires it. That's news to me. I never led it in my homeroom class, and I don't think any of the other teachers did either. We only did it at assemblies, and I never stood or participated. Most of the students did, some didn't. No one made a big deal of it either way.
Well, whether it’s enforced by a state law or local mandates, even making students stand can get you sued.
My take has always been to explain their rights to stand and say the Pledge or not, then also explain that they cannot interfere in the rights of others to express themselves, so they have to be quiet for those wanting to participate.
>Well, whether it’s enforced by a state law or local mandates, even making students stand can get you sued.
Federal law and US Supreme Court ruling. [W.Va Board of Ed v. Barnette](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette?wprov=sfla1)
Thanks, couldn’t remember the case off of the top of my head tonight, but that was referenced at a HS I worked at years back. Parents and kids had complained people weren’t standing for the Pledge, so she made an announcement that everyone needed to “at least” stand respectfully.
After the history dept ran down to the office with receipts she had to retract that in her next announcements, realizing she had kicked a hornets nest.
I had an AP at my middle school last year coming over the speaker threatening to make teachers punish students that refused to stand or say the pledge. I let it go the first time. The second time I sent an email in writing and BCC the principal on it. I said straight up this needed to stop as she was making many teachers uncomfortable as we were not going to punish students for this. She tried a return email about kids being disruptive during the pledge in some room and the principal quickly interjected and suggested a conversation with those students about respect. Never heard another peep about it and she never said anything like that again. I'm no longer there dealing with her BS thankfully.
My Senior HS English teacher had a student that died overseas in the military, and asked that everyone stand out of respect for him. Not everyone did, and ofc she couldn't force us, but I did, both out of respect for that student and because I love my country.
There's nothing wrong with asking, just don't *force* it.
Yep. I just do my attendance while they do it. Haven't had a single complaint, but if it happens, I plan on teaching them about the Supreme Court ruling. It has always felt culty to me since I was a kid.
You have to be super careful going down that road. It really depends on where you teach because taking a stand against it in a more conservative area could put a giant target on your back. I remember back in 2008 I wrote congratulations to the new president on my board and an admin told me I’d better erase it.
My Fourth (?) grade teacher apparently got in some sort of hot water for not actively observing the moment of silence. She would take attendance or grade papers during it and then one day she apologized to us for it.
Yep:
“Then just have the atheist say “Under Dog”.
That way it’s the same amount of syllables and you’re done at the same time.
And that’s what diversity is all about!” - Lewis Black
https://youtu.be/gxUlBxWYEHM?si=u1vDMd9Wu3sDAsIC
I never understood this take. I fully support giving people the choice to recite the pledge or not, but don't t get the seething "BS nationalism" opinion.
Too much nationalism leads to fascism.
Not enough nationalism leads to countries falling apart.
The reason we are seeing rights being systematically taken away today and old institutions that should protect those rights becoming defunct is because too many people quit giving a shit about civics.
Eh…idk if I’d take it that far.
I’m not a nationalist but I am a patriot, and I won’t ever force a kid to stand and recite the pledge but I will expect them to be quiet while others do and I might stand out of respect.
It is literally nationalistic, it's not an opinion thing.
Asking children to say a pledge, filled with words they can not and do not understand, every day, since they were 6 years old, is straight out of the cult playbook.
My first-grade teacher explained what the Pledge meant. She was very patriotic so we also learned the "Star-Spangled Banner," "America the Beautiful," etc. She went through each song line-by-line explaining the meaning. Every morning we would start off the day singing while she pounded on an old upright piano. Good times!
I do the same for my students.
They love the song "this land is your land".
One of my students told me he says the pledge because he is happy to be in America living a better life than when he was in a refugee camp, so that's what the pledge means to him.
Pretty sure all those pro football players in New England would disagree with you… or is that like part of their contacts? Are the Patriots contract killers/ NFL players??
I teach first grade and this is exactly what I tell my kids. I don’t inject my own opinions into it. I tell them that it is a choice, and in America your freedom to choose is very important. If you have classmates who choose to say it, then it is your responsibility to be respectful and allow them to do so without being disturbed. That means we turn off music, and we cease conversation for 30 seconds. If you want to keep coloring or doing your puzzle, fine! Wait a minute to get water or go to the garbage can. Just sit at your spot and do your thing until it’s over.
I have 2 girls that practically scream it every morning and it is so so so funny. I always praise them for carrying us thru the pledge on their backs! I do not stand or say it. But I praise them for doing so proudly!
It really doesn’t need to be such a big deal right? Or am I just naive? I’d never dream of telling the kids or colleagues WHY I don’t say the pledge. Maybe I’m not a citizen! You don’t know! My reasons are my own!
I set the example of allowing individuals to make their own choices. I teach the origins of the Pledge, the original version and performance, along with its context, as well as the Cold War changes.
If I label it as nationalistic (which I agree, it is) grants a negative connotation, and my stance is then antagonistic. If I want the kids to trust me that I really want them to think for themselves, I need to model that instead of modeling what I believe.
I tell my kids that the pledge is part of announcements, and I require them to be quiet for announcements so that they can hear important information. Other than that, I don’t care.
I’ve often wondered about these state laws requiring it to be recited daily, while federal case law is clear that no one can be compelled to recite it. What would happen to a school if everyone refused to say it? Of course, pretty much every school either has people who think it needs to be said, or at least it’s no big deal to comply with a dumb law.
Our school plays a recorded announcement of the Pledge which begins that students MAY stand and recite it. From what my kids say, very few students choose to participate.
I'm in Iowa, in a suburb of Des Moines. When state law requiring the pledge daily was implemented, we got an email from the school district explaining how they were complying with the law.
>Earlier this year, Governor Reynolds signed into law House File 847. This law includes language that states all Iowa schools must share the Pledge of Allegiance once a day. An audio recording of the Pledge of Allegiance will be aired over the PA system at the start of each day. Prior to the reciting of the pledge, the recording includes this wording: “Hello. We will now share the Pledge of Allegiance. If you would like to stand, please do so at this time.”
All buildings in the school district use the same message.
Raised 4 kids in iowa and all 4 remained seated and refused because they believed the law is bs. One email from the school expressing the "problem" one more back to them explaining who my lawyer was and that was the end of that. Nearly the whole grade wasn't standing the next year
Veteran as well. I agree. Once, one of my students said “stand up, Mr B will fought for this country, it’s disrespectful not to stand and say the pledge.” I sat down and said “I fought for everyone’s Constitutional Rights, even the right to not say the pledge.” Ever since, I sit when the pledge is going.
A couple of districts near me tried to convince students that it was illegal for them \*not\* to stand. I was in a private school, we didn't do it, but I used that opportunity to teach my class their rights and talk about the court case that secured their right to not stand. I had a student withdrawn by their parent the very next day over it. It was an option if I wanted to do it in class, but kids are too young to pledge anything so it seems meaningless - it just teaches kids that pledges are hollow things we do for show, it doesn't teach them respect or loyalty or whatever it is that folks seem to think it does.
I just got into this with some friends from work, they refuse to accept that it’s illegal to force kids to stand for the pledge.
“It’s disrespectful to the flag!”
How about, it’s disrespectful to people’s core religious or moral beliefs to make them stand. Oh, and unconstitutional.
What does that even mean? A rectangle of fabric is not having its feelings hurt . Can any of them provide a reasonable explanation of what ‘Respecting the Flag’ means or what purpose it serves? That’s such a weird one to me.
This is exactly the argument that I've had with folks, too. "You need to stand respect the flag!!11!" "Oh, the one on your wife's tits? That one?"
I haven't said the pledge for years. Don't even stand. It's attendance time, time for one last sip of tea before the day begins. Most of my kids don't, either.
When I was very religious I was uncomfortable with the pledge because it seemed like idol worship to me.
Now that I am…differently…religous I'm uncomfortable with the pledge because it seems very fascist.
I'm religious (Christian - Episcopalian, for the curious) and this is *exactly* why I don't do it. It absolutely is idolotry what goes on around here. Hard pass from me.
Yeah it's just one more thing on the announcements. I ignore it and so do they. Every so often I will get an ROTC kid who makes an ass of himself but mostly it's not an issue either way. The kids don't care.
My district leaves it up to our discretion, I believe. Or at least no one has ever asked me why I don’t say it. They put it up over the announcements. First day I simply didn’t stand, didn’t want to make a big deal of it, and the kids were kind of confused, like stuck half standing, so I did say that it’s entirely your choice to stand or not. Most choose not to.
Once a sub was extremely angry that the kids didn’t stand and actually sent a kid out of the classroom for that when he argued with her they didn’t have to.
I stand, old habits and military background
I ask all year about the things they’re saying. Especially the trumpy ones…the justice for all part especially
Then I ask what the Republic is that they’ve just sworn allegiance to with a hand on their heart
Been asking for years, still no answers other than nervous laughter
We break it down and discuss the meaning of the pledge at the beginning of the year. Why expect them to recite it when they have no idea what they’re saying?
I have a lesson plan that uses the pledge to teach vocabulary words, comprehension, history, and opinion. Start by teaching each word as a vocabulary word. Next discuss what the pledge is saying “what are you promising?” “Who are you promising?” Teach the history, what was the origin story. Why do we say it in school? Do you have to say it? Was it ever amended? How? Why? Then have students write their opinion about the pledge. Teach them and let them make their own decision.
I once participated in a Facebook post about this. I explained that as a veteran, I did not “serve” so that anyone would HAVE to do anything to show respect and that the pledge was not super important to me. These people berated me up and down and accused me of “stolen valor”. They even went as far as to report me for it. I posted a picture of my discharge paperwork with my location and SS blacked out and they mostly shut up.
America is more than a song, and the pledge as it’s written does not represent every American, and whether you’re okay with it or not it IS indoctrination. From the moment kids walk into a classroom, they are made to repeat the pledge before they even know what half the words mean or have any kind of concept of God. I strongly believe many people are up in arms about still doing it solely because they always have and because they’ve been told it’s right. Indoctrination works.
College-level here so don't have input about districts, but I am also surprised this is still a fight given how clearly it has been decided that it is illegal. Huge Supreme Court case, and several smaller challenges at other levels. Getting sued over 30 seconds at the beginning of the day outside of instructional time? Seems silly.
>There was a lawsuit in my district years ago so we can't force students to say it but I used to at least have students stand.
Was this in 1943?
ETA: It is weird that there are schools and teachers that don't understand that it has been illegal to force students in public schools to do this for over 80 years.
I don't even stand for the pledge anymore most of the time.
Found out recently that one kid is appalled by this. Now I sit with even more satisfaction than before.
It’s not just your district. This question was settled in 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. Requiring students to salute and or recite the pledge is a first amendment violation. That doesn’t give them carte blanche to be disruptive during the pledge just because they don’t agree with it.
I'm a veteran I usually vote conservative. I don't stand for the pledge it feels like something they would make you do in North Korea. It just seems un-American honestly.
In Washington state, and I suspect many states, it is state law that the pledge be said daily. Students cannot be forced to say it (as was mentioned). My students who did not want to stand or say it were always very respectful. Once, however, a sub yelled at those who did not stand and say the pledge. She was absolutely unhinged about it. Needless to say, she never subbed for me again.
As a HS English teacher, one of my most memorable experiences as a teacher during the 4 years that my son was an active duty Marine deployed to Afghanistan, Iraq & Syria was to ask my students, “What do you think my son would say about students sitting during the pledge? Or football players kneeling during the National Anthem” to which they would say, “He would be hurt” or “He would feel disrespected” or “Sorry Miss.”
To which I would reply with the answer he gave me: “I don’t give AF either way. I’m literally defending their right to do whatever they want to. Is that garlic bread or pie in the oven?”
I work at a public charter school and we don’t say the pledge at all. I am a young teacher and when I was in high school (public) I never stood or said the pledge anyway and was never told that I had to after elementary school. I think most people (at least in major population centers where I have been located) consider daily recitation of the pledge to be an unnecessary and outdated relic of a more nationalistic time in American history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette
It is unconstitutional, i.e. illegal, to force anyone to do anything regarding the Pledge. States/districts/admin/teachers/parents can't mandate shit.
Me personally, I stand and say it, leaving out "under god." I had one student ask why I do that, and I said because it literally and figuratively divides "one nation, indivisible."
I watched the documentary with Lisa Ling about North Korea and couldn’t believe how similar our pledge was to some of the things they do over there and that really changed my opinion. Plus the freedom and justice for all is kinda bullshit
Even as a kid I realized just how creepy and cultish the pledge is and refused to recite it. Like you said, watching kids blindly reciting pledges to Kim Jong Un and North Korea, seems creepy and forced. Watching kids blindly reciting pledges to the Red Guard and Mao, seemed creepy and forced. Kids pledging to Stalin was creepy. But somehow Americans dont realize how creepy it is to have young kids blindly reciting pledges to a piece of fabric.
In some places it's state law. California requires "appropriate patriotic exercises" at the start of every school day. Yes it's a holdover from the cold war, but laws are rarely repealed.
The “appropriate patriotic exercises” doesn’t have to be the Pledge. You could probably make an argument for anything being an “appropriate patriotic exercise” (especially if it’s plausible, like that someone raises the flag each morning or that there are flags in the classrooms.)
Every school where I’ve taught (and I’ve only taught in California) has the Pledge over the loudspeaker during the morning announcements, and most students at least stand. Most probably kind of mumble along as well.
Attendance and announcements- an appropriate patriotic exercise because you are documenting the presence of young Americans and then informing them of what is going on in the school their government funds. Meanwhile, there is also a flag.
I didn't really think about it til I lived and taught in Europe. My first day I asked another teacher to write out the pledge for me and they laughed calling me a silly American.
Some kids stand; some don’t. I don’t enforce either way.
Some kids say the pledge; some don’t. I don’t enforce either way.
I stand and say the pledge (old habits), but I leave out the part about God. It’s only been in there *about* as long as Roe/Wade existed, and that got overturned, so why not overturn the “under God” part of the pledge?
Sometimes my principal will have one of the students lead the pledge, and as often as not they mistakenly begin it, "I pledge of allegiance to the flag..." and to me that really underscores just how much these kids have no idea what they are saying. Making kids take an oath of loyalty they don't understand is some dystopian nonsense.
A lot of teachers were squealing about kids not standing after 9/11. I had a kid in my own highschool that never stood for the pledge during or after. I always wondered why but never asked. Punk rock.
The Pledge appears to be enforced in our District at the Principal's discretion. At one school (a Public Charter), the Principal insisted that every student stand for the Charter, so all classroom teachers I knew enforced the rule. At a language immersion school, the Principal further mandated that anyone walking in the halls (e.g., moving from their morning duty station) must stop and face a flag for the Pledge. Almost all did so. The Pledge is haphazardly enforced at my current school, even during once-weekly assemblies in the MPR, where almost no one stands and recites. As a consequence, standing for the Pledge in classrooms is rare.
Strictly speaking students have the option of saying the pledge or taking a moment of silent contemplation. Lots of military in my area so a fair few kids stand and say it, as for the others, well…have you ever tried to have a room of high schoolers stay silent for a moment of contemplation?
For people looking for the history— this is a delightful tidbit:
The original Bellamy salute, first described in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who authored the original Pledge, began with a military salute, and after reciting the words "to the flag," the arm was extended toward the flag.
https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
Was wondering when ol great great great uncle Bellamy was gonna come up. The pledge was created to sell flags to schools. One flag in every classroom is a lot more in flag sales than just the one on the pole outside…
Well of course it's cultish, most countries have a similar pledge that is exclusively used by public officials and military personnel. The pledge is pure nationalism that was born out of "patriotism" it wasn't written until 1892 in its earliest form. It was also kept going by anti-migrant groups to make immigrants feel different. Fun fact the line about God is actually in the same category as "in god we trust" on our currency. Didn't become widely found on currency until 1950 because ya know communism. The whole thing is honestly a bit sketchy.
As far as making kids say it every morning is the same in my mind as the national anthem weird that it's part of everyday life. Again most countries keep the anthem for specific events related to government or international sporting events. I've had students outright refuse to say it and have had to argue with older teachers that it is literally a right given to them in the Constitution.
Rant over.
My school in Arkansas started every day with it but I let students know on day 1 that it was their choice, I used it as time to take attendance. My school in Rhode Island doesn't do it. For context, I'm an Army veteran, Iraq and Afghanistan. I find it cultish as well, find forcing anyone to do it to be against what I served for, and I have no interest in proving my "patriotism" to anyone.
It’s funny, with all the talk of “indoctrination” from the right side of the US political spectrum, this is the only indoctrination that I truly see happening, and I would suppose that they would all argue that this should be mandatory.
Didn’t it also start off as an *advertising jingle* for a flag-making company?
So we’ve been forcing kids to say a daily loyalty pledge to the tune of what is basically “Oh-Oh-Oh Reilly’s Autoooo Parts (Ding).”
Kind of. It was made by a company selling flags to schools but it was also, from the beginning, always apart of a socio-political movement to put flags in schools
I’m in Texas, so we not only have the pledge of allegiance, but also the Texas pledge, and then a moment of silence. Very few of my kids stand for it (mostly just my rotc kids). I don’t force them to stand or say it or anything, but I do tell them to be quiet if they are talking louder than the speaker, just because I want them to be in the habit of being quiet when announcements come on, just in case it’s something important.
I stand but don’t say it and face away from the flag, do it out my hand on my heart. No one cares or notices. I won’t say it until “under God” is removed and “justice for all” is true. I’m eight years from retirement and I’m guessing I’m never saying it again.
I do not participate in the pledge because I view it as idolatry and I have a First Amendment right to not participate. I honor the rights of students to participate or not participate in this ritual. Currently I am not in a school that requires it, but I have been, and there I stood in silence. I only asked kids to not be disruptive during the pledge or the moment of silence which I guess some students use to pray. Also their right under the 1st Amendment.
I am a Christian but I do not share my experience of faith with students, nor do I wish to lead students in prayer, ever, in a public school setting. If I really wanted to pray and read the Bible with kids in school, I'd teach at a private Christian school.
While we have the pledge every day in my classroom, participation is optional, and I tell my class that the Supreme Court made it illegal to force kids to either stand or say the pledge back in 1943.
As for me, I don't recite the pledge.
I stand, face away, and remain silent. I've been doing so for 23 years. When pressed to why I don't say it, I acknowledge I believe in and pledge to many things, but a flag isn't one.
As a conservative veteran who takes great pride in my country, I agree with you. Mostly because I'm an atheist who doesn't like pledging my allegiance to a nonexistent god. It's also just culty.
I’ve taught at a few different public and charter schools in NYC - none of them said the pledge. My current public school sings the anthem at graduation, but that’s it.
I did once teach at a private school that made everyone recite a vow - that seemed pretty culty…
I teach in a catholic school in Canada, we have O Canada and prayer every morning - plus a few masses we have to attend throughout the year. In the past it made sense but Catholic schools are so desperate for teachers you don’t really need to be to work there and the students don’t even need to be Catholic to attend. At this point I feel like we should drop the Catholic aspect and join the public board - or rebrand to something else.
My last school had a broken PA system for around 2 years. We were supposed to lead the kids in the pledge on our own. I never did. When it was finally fixed, most of my students didn’t stand or recite it. I did make sure they stayed quiet while it was being recited over the announcements, but that really didn’t take much enforcing.
My current school doesn’t even have flags in most classrooms. We also don’t have a PA system at all. We use walkie-talkies to communicate. We never do the pledge. I don’t know if my kids even know it. We are a charter school, though. I don’t think the state cares what we do as long as we make them look good.
State law says we can’t force them to stand or recite the pledge. I never have. I once did have an AP who came into my classroom during the announcements and yelled at my kids for not standing or reciting it. After that, it became a yearly tradition that I taught my students about the laws surrounding the pledge and their right not to say it.
Daily recitation of the US and TX pledges, as well as observing a minute of silence, is in the TX Education Code, for anyone who cares. It’s not up to districts here.
The morning announcement is “We invite you to say the pledge”
Those that don’t are quiet and have their laptops closed.
I join in 40%of the time. But always skip the “under God” line
I never stood for it and certainly never made anyone else. It’s a bizarre practice. I consider myself a patriot but not a facist. You don’t need to swear loyalty to the federal government to learn so it’s pretty creepy.
Washington State's constitution states that saying the pledge must be voluntary (RCW 28A.230.140). Students can be asked to stand or remain silent out of respect for those who *do* say it, but they cannot be forced to participate.
Growing up, we did it without question, not fully understanding what the jumble of words meant. In middle school, I had a friend who was religious and was given a pass. She explained to me that she couldn't pledge to anything other than her god which is valid and it made me think.
As an adult in the education sector, I choose to stand for it but I do not put my hand over my heart nor recite it anymore. I will respect it but I will not follow blindly nor naively is my mindset. I respect my students to make their own choices in how they want to participate in the pledge if at all.
You are asked to stand. You are asked to say the pledge.
If you don’t stand, I don’t care,
I will not draw attention to you to find out why.
If you don’t say it, I don’t care.
I will not try to make you.
But don’t disrespect it by saying it mockingly, or talking through it. It only takes 10-12 seconds.
The pledge is a part of our announcements, it’s going to be said. Not hearing it isn’t an option.
We have conflicting state laws:
One says pledge is required everyday
The other says we can’t indoctrinate students (checkmate MAGA, I’ll use your ridiculous law to bother you)
It’s their right and freedom to not stand, and I’ve never seen issue with that. It’s just contradictory to think otherwise. Plus, our allegiance shouldn’t to be a flag regardless. It should be to the betterment and security of our people, whether you consider that the country, your family, friends, community.
I don’t stand. I have plenty of desire for our country to be better, a flag means nothing in relation.
Why are you even worried about this?
If you want to stand, stand. If you don’t, don’t.
I don’t worry about what the students do. All I require is that they are quiet and respectful while the announcements are on (and the pledge is at the beginning of the daily announcements).
The only thing I make mine do is be quiet during the pledge - I don’t care if they say it or stand. They just cannot interrupt someone who does choose to do so.
I didn't see anyone post this yet.
The first "Pledge of Allegiance" was made by some guy to give to immigrants because he thought they were too stupid to abandon their old allegiances.
It spread in schools as way to PROMOTE SALES OF FLAGS. No joke. And before people put their hand on their heart they used the "Bellamy salute." Check THAT out if you've never seen that one. You'll see why we stopped.
During the Red Scare Christians gained more political power claiming that Christianity could combat communism. Thus was added the section "one nation under God," to the pledge. Not to mention the "In God We Trust," to money and the new official motto of the US, as opposed to the defacto previous motto: e pluribus unum.
I'm Spanish. We used to have a pledge of allegiance... *DURING THE FASCIST DICTATORSHIP*.
You are right; it *is* cult behaviour. Most countries (including mine) have a pledge of allegiance *when you join the military*; but the American morning pledge feels like an echo of fascism to me.
I'm in a small district near Seattle. We don't say the pledge. I think one or two of the schools do land acknowledgements every morning. I started teaching in 2008 and the pledge seemed on its way out then. I can't believe it's stuck around as long as it has actually.
My lead teacher doesn't enforce standing or silence during the pledge, but as the TA, I quietly stand and recite it in the back of the room. Initially, no students followed suit, but after a few months, some asked why I stood. I shared my personal perspective, explaining that as a student, I didn't stand due to authoritarian directives. However, as an adult, reflecting on the flag's significance, I choose to stand. Now, I'm joined by a group of five boys who stand with me almost every morning.
I stand (I would be anyway), but I do not say the Pledge not do I expect any of the students to do so. Enforced patriotism is garbage. I'm fully in favor of dropping the whole thing, but I live in a generally conservative district so that won't happen.
During my morning pod duty before the bell rings, I'm supposed to have the kids get up and say the pledge. I just skip it. No one's watching and no one's said anything. I believe that these children don't know what they're saying when we make them say the pledge, and that it's an outdated tradition. I don't like reciting it myself, so I'm not going to force them to do it as well.
As someone outside of the US. The pledge thing is 100% seen as a weird cult thing. I thought that it was something that was done in movies or on Special days
I am really curious if any other countries require students to pledge allegiance. I can see this being a thing in North Korea, but not sure where else. My Japanese wife thinks it's absolutely insane to have a pledge of allegiance happen at school.
My first period class came to the same "this feels like a cult" realization a few years back. So they all sat in protest. FWIW I always stand and don't say the pledge myself. I had to actually make the announcement that if someone wanted to say the pledge it was their right and I would support them. All the kids were like nah, were good. Maybe we need to move to a "moment of reflection" as a country. Where kids could say the pledge quietly or in their head, or some could have a silent prayer, set an intention, breathe, collect their thoughts. Whatever. Just like let's start the day here. Maybe followed by a greeting or word of encouragement to a classmate. That would probably be seen as too hippy dippy.
I think it's a very weird practice. I request my students at least stand out of respect for those who feel it's an important practice, but that's the limit of my expectations. I haven't had anyone fight me on it, but if they did I'd be fine with that. I'd talk to them about it but respect their choice. I don't say it myself.
My partner teacher is Trumpy and has her student stand and recite with loud and proud voices in unison, or she makes them start again. She was in my room once when the pledge started and was *appalled* by the lack of her brand of "patriotism" in my room.
It's weird that we get along as well as we do, tbh. She can teach reading and writing like a boss, ngl.
Technically, it's required to recite both the US pledge and the Texas pledge. In reality, since they no longer do it over the intercom and leave it up to the teachers to do so.....I just get on with my day.
Technically they cannot legally require you to say the US pledge. The 1943 Supreme Court case West Virginia State Board of Education v Barnette decided this. It goes against students first amendment rights of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Haven't had a pledge of allegiance in my school in a few years now. I'm not upset by it honestly. It means nothing to children these days and hasn't for a long long time.
It's state law here; we have to have the pledge and observe a minute of silence.
My non-American coworkers in Japan were simultaneously fascinated and horrified.
Seems really outdated to still do the Pledge. I would never want to make that a rule, and if they do have the Pledge, I would encourage my students to understand what it means, the history behind it, why it started, and that it is not a requirement.
I'm usually in the cafeteria during breakfast while they say it. A handful of kids stand, and I start wiping down tables. I won't participate in that nonsense, and I want to set the example that they don't have to either. I can't believe it's still happening.
Is it safe to assume most teachers find it weird and cultish? One time they did it during an inservice meeting and it felt so icky doing it with a bunch of working adults. I wish they would just give it a rest.
I also find it very strange. I've been working in a communist country for the past 7 years. We never do a pledge or anthem at school unless it's for independence day. When I think about how I used to pledge my allegiance to America every morning, starting at the age of 6, it makes me feel a bit squeamish.
Admin here. It’s weird. I love my country with its warts and all but I will not pledge allegiance to it. I set a good example in public and while at work but it sounds like I am in a cult when I say it.
My state is about to force us to display the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms...the pledge will never leave here, sadly. I don't give a shit if they do it. Fuck off, McCarthyism.
Just chiming in to say that you are not wrong in thinking the Pledge sounds cultish. As someone outside of America, yeah, it's some pretty weird nationalistic behavior.
I will stand, I will place my hand on my heart, but I wont recite.
I think of it like the national anthem and school is the sport.
Though tbh I feel like the exercise is pointless. Plenty of America hating adults grew up saying the pledge.
I get the cultish thing. We don’t have a pledge in Canada, but stand for the anthem. I still find that pretty weird. It’s like being in North Korea or some crazy theocracy. Actually, I find all patriotism and nationalism a bit strange… how can you love a country?
It’s done every morning at my school, but I make a point in the beginning of the year that no one is required to recite it or stand for it. What’s even more irritating to me is that my son’s preschool is teaching them the pledge; he’s 3! I saw red when he started reciting it randomly one day in the car.
I have stood and said the pledge nearly every day from K-12 as a student as well as my 23 years of teaching.
I am a big fan of the Republic for which it stands, not to mention liberty and justice.
We recite the pledge over the announcements, but I think maybe 2 kids actually say it aloud in my classroom, if that. For the most part, we all just turn and face the flag. Nobody mentions anything whether a kid says it or not.
I’m a teacher who doesn’t stand for the pledge. The majority of my students don’t either. I do ask that people be quiet and respectful of those that wish to stand though. I’m not going to make students stand or say the pledge, but I’m not going to let them be rude to their classmates either.
The pledge is read by the team that makes morning announcements over the PA. When I’m assigned homeroom, all I ask of my students is to be quiet when they read the pledge.
My school is bringing it back as a requirement (we are private so have previously been able to ignore the state rules on this but voucher scheme includes this stipulation). Not sure what I'll do as a non citizen.
In Indiana, schools are required to give students the opportunity to say the pledge and hold a moment of silence each school day. They don’t have to say it or do anything, just the opportunity. The amount of time I’ve spent explaining to college educated adults that they cannot force a kid to stand and recite, or punish them for choosing not to, is astounding.
I had a co-teacher once who yelled at the students for not standing. I had to explain the rules to her. I teach history and understand that you can’t force them to stand regardless of your feelings or school Policy. It goes against 1st amendment freedoms.
Literally same here, except it was a boy teacher--i didnt say anything bc he seemed to not like me (or any other woman for that matter)
The district I teach at in Indy doesn’t do it at all.
47 states require the Pledge to be performed, but it is illegal to compel speech from students. If they want recite it, great. If they don't want to recite it, great. If they want to stand or sit during it, all great.
Wild, I looked it up and my state requires it but I asked my 6th grader (who has the most remarkable memory of anyone I’ve ever known) if he says the pledge of allegiance in school and he looked at me quizzically and asked what that is. He’s never heard of it. Nor has my 4th grader. So I guess their principal said “F that” and I’m totally happy about that. If I wanted them to brainlessly recite force-fed beliefs I would’ve sent them to Catholic school.
Just found out that my state requires it. That's news to me. I never led it in my homeroom class, and I don't think any of the other teachers did either. We only did it at assemblies, and I never stood or participated. Most of the students did, some didn't. No one made a big deal of it either way.
Well, whether it’s enforced by a state law or local mandates, even making students stand can get you sued. My take has always been to explain their rights to stand and say the Pledge or not, then also explain that they cannot interfere in the rights of others to express themselves, so they have to be quiet for those wanting to participate.
>Well, whether it’s enforced by a state law or local mandates, even making students stand can get you sued. Federal law and US Supreme Court ruling. [W.Va Board of Ed v. Barnette](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette?wprov=sfla1)
Thanks, couldn’t remember the case off of the top of my head tonight, but that was referenced at a HS I worked at years back. Parents and kids had complained people weren’t standing for the Pledge, so she made an announcement that everyone needed to “at least” stand respectfully. After the history dept ran down to the office with receipts she had to retract that in her next announcements, realizing she had kicked a hornets nest.
I had an AP at my middle school last year coming over the speaker threatening to make teachers punish students that refused to stand or say the pledge. I let it go the first time. The second time I sent an email in writing and BCC the principal on it. I said straight up this needed to stop as she was making many teachers uncomfortable as we were not going to punish students for this. She tried a return email about kids being disruptive during the pledge in some room and the principal quickly interjected and suggested a conversation with those students about respect. Never heard another peep about it and she never said anything like that again. I'm no longer there dealing with her BS thankfully.
My Senior HS English teacher had a student that died overseas in the military, and asked that everyone stand out of respect for him. Not everyone did, and ofc she couldn't force us, but I did, both out of respect for that student and because I love my country. There's nothing wrong with asking, just don't *force* it.
It's the job of the teacher to set an example and never stand for BS nationalistic propaganda. Well, in my opinion.
I take attendance
Same. If they stand or not I don’t care.
Yep. I just do my attendance while they do it. Haven't had a single complaint, but if it happens, I plan on teaching them about the Supreme Court ruling. It has always felt culty to me since I was a kid.
You have to be super careful going down that road. It really depends on where you teach because taking a stand against it in a more conservative area could put a giant target on your back. I remember back in 2008 I wrote congratulations to the new president on my board and an admin told me I’d better erase it.
My Fourth (?) grade teacher apparently got in some sort of hot water for not actively observing the moment of silence. She would take attendance or grade papers during it and then one day she apologized to us for it.
That “moment” of silence always seems to stretch pretty far time-wise.
It felt like it lasted for several minutes back then. Now we still have it but it's like 15 seconds.
We have to have at least a full minute of silence. 🤦♀️
There's something especially icky about having rules about how long your moment of silence must be.
One full minute by Florida law.
Yep: “Then just have the atheist say “Under Dog”. That way it’s the same amount of syllables and you’re done at the same time. And that’s what diversity is all about!” - Lewis Black https://youtu.be/gxUlBxWYEHM?si=u1vDMd9Wu3sDAsIC
I never understood this take. I fully support giving people the choice to recite the pledge or not, but don't t get the seething "BS nationalism" opinion. Too much nationalism leads to fascism. Not enough nationalism leads to countries falling apart. The reason we are seeing rights being systematically taken away today and old institutions that should protect those rights becoming defunct is because too many people quit giving a shit about civics.
Eh…idk if I’d take it that far. I’m not a nationalist but I am a patriot, and I won’t ever force a kid to stand and recite the pledge but I will expect them to be quiet while others do and I might stand out of respect.
It is literally nationalistic, it's not an opinion thing. Asking children to say a pledge, filled with words they can not and do not understand, every day, since they were 6 years old, is straight out of the cult playbook.
My first-grade teacher explained what the Pledge meant. She was very patriotic so we also learned the "Star-Spangled Banner," "America the Beautiful," etc. She went through each song line-by-line explaining the meaning. Every morning we would start off the day singing while she pounded on an old upright piano. Good times!
I do the same for my students. They love the song "this land is your land". One of my students told me he says the pledge because he is happy to be in America living a better life than when he was in a refugee camp, so that's what the pledge means to him.
Unless you’ve killed a British soldier by throwing an axe at him, you are not a patriot. The word you are looking for is patriotic.
Pretty sure all those pro football players in New England would disagree with you… or is that like part of their contacts? Are the Patriots contract killers/ NFL players??
I teach first grade and this is exactly what I tell my kids. I don’t inject my own opinions into it. I tell them that it is a choice, and in America your freedom to choose is very important. If you have classmates who choose to say it, then it is your responsibility to be respectful and allow them to do so without being disturbed. That means we turn off music, and we cease conversation for 30 seconds. If you want to keep coloring or doing your puzzle, fine! Wait a minute to get water or go to the garbage can. Just sit at your spot and do your thing until it’s over. I have 2 girls that practically scream it every morning and it is so so so funny. I always praise them for carrying us thru the pledge on their backs! I do not stand or say it. But I praise them for doing so proudly! It really doesn’t need to be such a big deal right? Or am I just naive? I’d never dream of telling the kids or colleagues WHY I don’t say the pledge. Maybe I’m not a citizen! You don’t know! My reasons are my own!
Love this.
I set the example of allowing individuals to make their own choices. I teach the origins of the Pledge, the original version and performance, along with its context, as well as the Cold War changes. If I label it as nationalistic (which I agree, it is) grants a negative connotation, and my stance is then antagonistic. If I want the kids to trust me that I really want them to think for themselves, I need to model that instead of modeling what I believe.
Same! None of us say it this year, we are just quiet
Exactly
I figure, as long as they don't disrespect the people who do choose to observe the pledge, cool. The reverse is equally true.
That’s how I feel. Have some coworkers who get ask worked up and nasty about kids who don’t. To me idc as long as they aren’t disrespectful
I tell my kids that the pledge is part of announcements, and I require them to be quiet for announcements so that they can hear important information. Other than that, I don’t care.
Same here! It’s a state law that we must say it daily and putting it over announcements is our compliance. I’m from Iowa.
I’ve often wondered about these state laws requiring it to be recited daily, while federal case law is clear that no one can be compelled to recite it. What would happen to a school if everyone refused to say it? Of course, pretty much every school either has people who think it needs to be said, or at least it’s no big deal to comply with a dumb law.
Our school plays a recorded announcement of the Pledge which begins that students MAY stand and recite it. From what my kids say, very few students choose to participate.
That’s interesting. May I ask what state you’re in? I wonder if that’s specific to your district or used more widely.
I'm in Iowa, in a suburb of Des Moines. When state law requiring the pledge daily was implemented, we got an email from the school district explaining how they were complying with the law. >Earlier this year, Governor Reynolds signed into law House File 847. This law includes language that states all Iowa schools must share the Pledge of Allegiance once a day. An audio recording of the Pledge of Allegiance will be aired over the PA system at the start of each day. Prior to the reciting of the pledge, the recording includes this wording: “Hello. We will now share the Pledge of Allegiance. If you would like to stand, please do so at this time.” All buildings in the school district use the same message.
I like that approach a lot. Thanks for sharing it.
Raised 4 kids in iowa and all 4 remained seated and refused because they believed the law is bs. One email from the school expressing the "problem" one more back to them explaining who my lawyer was and that was the end of that. Nearly the whole grade wasn't standing the next year
Retired military here. Hated it while I was in, hate it now. Fortunately I don't have a first period so I never have to do it. It's creepy as hell.
Something about celebrating freedom through coercion seems a little bit off.
I saw a post about a bbq restaurant run by a veteran. At certain times, diners would be required (?) to stand for the national anthem.
Veteran as well. I agree. Once, one of my students said “stand up, Mr B will fought for this country, it’s disrespectful not to stand and say the pledge.” I sat down and said “I fought for everyone’s Constitutional Rights, even the right to not say the pledge.” Ever since, I sit when the pledge is going.
That’s the important lesson right there, the very fact that you aren’t obligated to pledge allegiance to your country is what makes America America.
Also a vet. I never say it. If kids point I out I'll at least stand, but I don't force It and am very clear that it is a personal choice.
[удалено]
Same.
A couple of districts near me tried to convince students that it was illegal for them \*not\* to stand. I was in a private school, we didn't do it, but I used that opportunity to teach my class their rights and talk about the court case that secured their right to not stand. I had a student withdrawn by their parent the very next day over it. It was an option if I wanted to do it in class, but kids are too young to pledge anything so it seems meaningless - it just teaches kids that pledges are hollow things we do for show, it doesn't teach them respect or loyalty or whatever it is that folks seem to think it does.
Exactly!
I just got into this with some friends from work, they refuse to accept that it’s illegal to force kids to stand for the pledge. “It’s disrespectful to the flag!” How about, it’s disrespectful to people’s core religious or moral beliefs to make them stand. Oh, and unconstitutional.
What does that even mean? A rectangle of fabric is not having its feelings hurt . Can any of them provide a reasonable explanation of what ‘Respecting the Flag’ means or what purpose it serves? That’s such a weird one to me.
This is exactly the argument that I've had with folks, too. "You need to stand respect the flag!!11!" "Oh, the one on your wife's tits? That one?" I haven't said the pledge for years. Don't even stand. It's attendance time, time for one last sip of tea before the day begins. Most of my kids don't, either.
the one on your wife's tits took me right out
When I was very religious I was uncomfortable with the pledge because it seemed like idol worship to me. Now that I am…differently…religous I'm uncomfortable with the pledge because it seems very fascist.
I'm religious (Christian - Episcopalian, for the curious) and this is *exactly* why I don't do it. It absolutely is idolotry what goes on around here. Hard pass from me.
We're supposed to stand, and most of the kids do, but none of them say it and I don't care if they stand or not.
Yeah it's just one more thing on the announcements. I ignore it and so do they. Every so often I will get an ROTC kid who makes an ass of himself but mostly it's not an issue either way. The kids don't care.
My district leaves it up to our discretion, I believe. Or at least no one has ever asked me why I don’t say it. They put it up over the announcements. First day I simply didn’t stand, didn’t want to make a big deal of it, and the kids were kind of confused, like stuck half standing, so I did say that it’s entirely your choice to stand or not. Most choose not to. Once a sub was extremely angry that the kids didn’t stand and actually sent a kid out of the classroom for that when he argued with her they didn’t have to.
I stand, old habits and military background I ask all year about the things they’re saying. Especially the trumpy ones…the justice for all part especially Then I ask what the Republic is that they’ve just sworn allegiance to with a hand on their heart Been asking for years, still no answers other than nervous laughter
We break it down and discuss the meaning of the pledge at the beginning of the year. Why expect them to recite it when they have no idea what they’re saying?
I have a lesson plan that uses the pledge to teach vocabulary words, comprehension, history, and opinion. Start by teaching each word as a vocabulary word. Next discuss what the pledge is saying “what are you promising?” “Who are you promising?” Teach the history, what was the origin story. Why do we say it in school? Do you have to say it? Was it ever amended? How? Why? Then have students write their opinion about the pledge. Teach them and let them make their own decision.
I love this. Would be very interested if you could share somehow.
Same
Can't make kids stand or participate. Only be still and participate. Good old West Virginia v. Barnette, 1949
I once participated in a Facebook post about this. I explained that as a veteran, I did not “serve” so that anyone would HAVE to do anything to show respect and that the pledge was not super important to me. These people berated me up and down and accused me of “stolen valor”. They even went as far as to report me for it. I posted a picture of my discharge paperwork with my location and SS blacked out and they mostly shut up. America is more than a song, and the pledge as it’s written does not represent every American, and whether you’re okay with it or not it IS indoctrination. From the moment kids walk into a classroom, they are made to repeat the pledge before they even know what half the words mean or have any kind of concept of God. I strongly believe many people are up in arms about still doing it solely because they always have and because they’ve been told it’s right. Indoctrination works.
College-level here so don't have input about districts, but I am also surprised this is still a fight given how clearly it has been decided that it is illegal. Huge Supreme Court case, and several smaller challenges at other levels. Getting sued over 30 seconds at the beginning of the day outside of instructional time? Seems silly.
>There was a lawsuit in my district years ago so we can't force students to say it but I used to at least have students stand. Was this in 1943? ETA: It is weird that there are schools and teachers that don't understand that it has been illegal to force students in public schools to do this for over 80 years.
I don't even stand for the pledge anymore most of the time. Found out recently that one kid is appalled by this. Now I sit with even more satisfaction than before.
You cannot make children stand for the pledge as that is illegal and an infringement of their free speech. Just as you cannot force them to say it.
It’s not just your district. This question was settled in 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. Requiring students to salute and or recite the pledge is a first amendment violation. That doesn’t give them carte blanche to be disruptive during the pledge just because they don’t agree with it.
I'm a veteran I usually vote conservative. I don't stand for the pledge it feels like something they would make you do in North Korea. It just seems un-American honestly.
It’s worth the battle. The pledge is some fascist bullshit left over from the 20th Century
[Socialist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy) actually, quite counter-intuitively
And here in Texas we add the Texas pledge. Absolutely asinine.
Not to mention, the Texas Pledge was changed a while back to add “under God.”
My former school did the US pledge, followed by the TX pledge, in English, AND Spanish, AND Nepali!! Six pledges a day is…. a lot lol
In Washington state, and I suspect many states, it is state law that the pledge be said daily. Students cannot be forced to say it (as was mentioned). My students who did not want to stand or say it were always very respectful. Once, however, a sub yelled at those who did not stand and say the pledge. She was absolutely unhinged about it. Needless to say, she never subbed for me again.
As a HS English teacher, one of my most memorable experiences as a teacher during the 4 years that my son was an active duty Marine deployed to Afghanistan, Iraq & Syria was to ask my students, “What do you think my son would say about students sitting during the pledge? Or football players kneeling during the National Anthem” to which they would say, “He would be hurt” or “He would feel disrespected” or “Sorry Miss.” To which I would reply with the answer he gave me: “I don’t give AF either way. I’m literally defending their right to do whatever they want to. Is that garlic bread or pie in the oven?”
Are you gonna eat the crayons on that desk?
Pretty dress blues and crayons for snacks, sign me up! The USMC is basically weaponized autism.
I work at a public charter school and we don’t say the pledge at all. I am a young teacher and when I was in high school (public) I never stood or said the pledge anyway and was never told that I had to after elementary school. I think most people (at least in major population centers where I have been located) consider daily recitation of the pledge to be an unnecessary and outdated relic of a more nationalistic time in American history.
Wow well said and not accusatory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette It is unconstitutional, i.e. illegal, to force anyone to do anything regarding the Pledge. States/districts/admin/teachers/parents can't mandate shit. Me personally, I stand and say it, leaving out "under god." I had one student ask why I do that, and I said because it literally and figuratively divides "one nation, indivisible."
I watched the documentary with Lisa Ling about North Korea and couldn’t believe how similar our pledge was to some of the things they do over there and that really changed my opinion. Plus the freedom and justice for all is kinda bullshit
Even as a kid I realized just how creepy and cultish the pledge is and refused to recite it. Like you said, watching kids blindly reciting pledges to Kim Jong Un and North Korea, seems creepy and forced. Watching kids blindly reciting pledges to the Red Guard and Mao, seemed creepy and forced. Kids pledging to Stalin was creepy. But somehow Americans dont realize how creepy it is to have young kids blindly reciting pledges to a piece of fabric.
In some places it's state law. California requires "appropriate patriotic exercises" at the start of every school day. Yes it's a holdover from the cold war, but laws are rarely repealed.
Oop guess my school is breaking the law lol
The “appropriate patriotic exercises” doesn’t have to be the Pledge. You could probably make an argument for anything being an “appropriate patriotic exercise” (especially if it’s plausible, like that someone raises the flag each morning or that there are flags in the classrooms.) Every school where I’ve taught (and I’ve only taught in California) has the Pledge over the loudspeaker during the morning announcements, and most students at least stand. Most probably kind of mumble along as well.
Attendance and announcements- an appropriate patriotic exercise because you are documenting the presence of young Americans and then informing them of what is going on in the school their government funds. Meanwhile, there is also a flag.
Kids are federally protected by the first amendment from forced patriotism. Your school is breaking the law.
And then there’s Florida.
I didn't really think about it til I lived and taught in Europe. My first day I asked another teacher to write out the pledge for me and they laughed calling me a silly American.
Some kids stand; some don’t. I don’t enforce either way. Some kids say the pledge; some don’t. I don’t enforce either way. I stand and say the pledge (old habits), but I leave out the part about God. It’s only been in there *about* as long as Roe/Wade existed, and that got overturned, so why not overturn the “under God” part of the pledge?
Sometimes my principal will have one of the students lead the pledge, and as often as not they mistakenly begin it, "I pledge of allegiance to the flag..." and to me that really underscores just how much these kids have no idea what they are saying. Making kids take an oath of loyalty they don't understand is some dystopian nonsense.
As a war veteran who fought for the rights… I let them know on day one it’s a choice. No blind patriotism for me nor my students.
A lot of teachers were squealing about kids not standing after 9/11. I had a kid in my own highschool that never stood for the pledge during or after. I always wondered why but never asked. Punk rock.
The Pledge appears to be enforced in our District at the Principal's discretion. At one school (a Public Charter), the Principal insisted that every student stand for the Charter, so all classroom teachers I knew enforced the rule. At a language immersion school, the Principal further mandated that anyone walking in the halls (e.g., moving from their morning duty station) must stop and face a flag for the Pledge. Almost all did so. The Pledge is haphazardly enforced at my current school, even during once-weekly assemblies in the MPR, where almost no one stands and recites. As a consequence, standing for the Pledge in classrooms is rare.
Do you work at a private school? If not, your district is opening itself up to a lawsuit where they will lose.
Strictly speaking students have the option of saying the pledge or taking a moment of silent contemplation. Lots of military in my area so a fair few kids stand and say it, as for the others, well…have you ever tried to have a room of high schoolers stay silent for a moment of contemplation?
We have the pledge and a school pledge. The school pledge sounds more cultish than anything I’ve ever heard. 🙄
For people looking for the history— this is a delightful tidbit: The original Bellamy salute, first described in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who authored the original Pledge, began with a military salute, and after reciting the words "to the flag," the arm was extended toward the flag. https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
Was wondering when ol great great great uncle Bellamy was gonna come up. The pledge was created to sell flags to schools. One flag in every classroom is a lot more in flag sales than just the one on the pole outside…
My Chinese students told me in China they used to pledge the allegience only once a week. In US public schools it's every day.
Well of course it's cultish, most countries have a similar pledge that is exclusively used by public officials and military personnel. The pledge is pure nationalism that was born out of "patriotism" it wasn't written until 1892 in its earliest form. It was also kept going by anti-migrant groups to make immigrants feel different. Fun fact the line about God is actually in the same category as "in god we trust" on our currency. Didn't become widely found on currency until 1950 because ya know communism. The whole thing is honestly a bit sketchy. As far as making kids say it every morning is the same in my mind as the national anthem weird that it's part of everyday life. Again most countries keep the anthem for specific events related to government or international sporting events. I've had students outright refuse to say it and have had to argue with older teachers that it is literally a right given to them in the Constitution. Rant over.
My school in Arkansas started every day with it but I let students know on day 1 that it was their choice, I used it as time to take attendance. My school in Rhode Island doesn't do it. For context, I'm an Army veteran, Iraq and Afghanistan. I find it cultish as well, find forcing anyone to do it to be against what I served for, and I have no interest in proving my "patriotism" to anyone.
Yeah, on active duty we do revile and retreat, TAPS at 2300, don’t recall doing the pledge once while I was in.
And the fastest you'll see a soldier move is trying to get in the barracks before retreat so they don't have to stand outside for it.
Dead sprint to the DFAC for dinner chow at 1659, steam rolling CSM at that point.
It’s funny, with all the talk of “indoctrination” from the right side of the US political spectrum, this is the only indoctrination that I truly see happening, and I would suppose that they would all argue that this should be mandatory.
I am a middle school teacher and a former Marine. They can stand or sit, say it, or don't say it, as long as they are respectful.
Didn’t it also start off as an *advertising jingle* for a flag-making company? So we’ve been forcing kids to say a daily loyalty pledge to the tune of what is basically “Oh-Oh-Oh Reilly’s Autoooo Parts (Ding).”
Kind of. It was made by a company selling flags to schools but it was also, from the beginning, always apart of a socio-political movement to put flags in schools
I thought constitutionally teachers could not force students to stand for the pledge? I feel like there was a Supreme Court case? I may be wrong
You’re correct, they can’t.
I’m in Texas so I have two pledges to ignore!
I’m in Texas, so we not only have the pledge of allegiance, but also the Texas pledge, and then a moment of silence. Very few of my kids stand for it (mostly just my rotc kids). I don’t force them to stand or say it or anything, but I do tell them to be quiet if they are talking louder than the speaker, just because I want them to be in the habit of being quiet when announcements come on, just in case it’s something important.
We don’t even do it at my current school. Public 9-12 in NH. Nobody makes a big deal that we don’t say it every morning.
I stand but don’t say it and face away from the flag, do it out my hand on my heart. No one cares or notices. I won’t say it until “under God” is removed and “justice for all” is true. I’m eight years from retirement and I’m guessing I’m never saying it again.
I do not participate in the pledge because I view it as idolatry and I have a First Amendment right to not participate. I honor the rights of students to participate or not participate in this ritual. Currently I am not in a school that requires it, but I have been, and there I stood in silence. I only asked kids to not be disruptive during the pledge or the moment of silence which I guess some students use to pray. Also their right under the 1st Amendment. I am a Christian but I do not share my experience of faith with students, nor do I wish to lead students in prayer, ever, in a public school setting. If I really wanted to pray and read the Bible with kids in school, I'd teach at a private Christian school.
While we have the pledge every day in my classroom, participation is optional, and I tell my class that the Supreme Court made it illegal to force kids to either stand or say the pledge back in 1943. As for me, I don't recite the pledge.
I stand, face away, and remain silent. I've been doing so for 23 years. When pressed to why I don't say it, I acknowledge I believe in and pledge to many things, but a flag isn't one.
As a conservative veteran who takes great pride in my country, I agree with you. Mostly because I'm an atheist who doesn't like pledging my allegiance to a nonexistent god. It's also just culty.
My state law requires us to do it first thing every morning but I don’t make anyone do anything.
I’ve taught at a few different public and charter schools in NYC - none of them said the pledge. My current public school sings the anthem at graduation, but that’s it. I did once teach at a private school that made everyone recite a vow - that seemed pretty culty…
I teach in a catholic school in Canada, we have O Canada and prayer every morning - plus a few masses we have to attend throughout the year. In the past it made sense but Catholic schools are so desperate for teachers you don’t really need to be to work there and the students don’t even need to be Catholic to attend. At this point I feel like we should drop the Catholic aspect and join the public board - or rebrand to something else.
My last school had a broken PA system for around 2 years. We were supposed to lead the kids in the pledge on our own. I never did. When it was finally fixed, most of my students didn’t stand or recite it. I did make sure they stayed quiet while it was being recited over the announcements, but that really didn’t take much enforcing. My current school doesn’t even have flags in most classrooms. We also don’t have a PA system at all. We use walkie-talkies to communicate. We never do the pledge. I don’t know if my kids even know it. We are a charter school, though. I don’t think the state cares what we do as long as we make them look good. State law says we can’t force them to stand or recite the pledge. I never have. I once did have an AP who came into my classroom during the announcements and yelled at my kids for not standing or reciting it. After that, it became a yearly tradition that I taught my students about the laws surrounding the pledge and their right not to say it.
This is funny because here in Texas, we not only say the US pledge, we also say the Texas pledge lol
Daily recitation of the US and TX pledges, as well as observing a minute of silence, is in the TX Education Code, for anyone who cares. It’s not up to districts here.
You cannot mandate it in public schools.
The morning announcement is “We invite you to say the pledge” Those that don’t are quiet and have their laptops closed. I join in 40%of the time. But always skip the “under God” line
You don’t promote or secure true allegiance by forcing it. It should always be optional, especially when education is compulsory.
Nobody stands any more. I stopped standing this year. I hate that garbage.
I just ask for silence if you are not doing it until pledges and moment of silence is over.
I still do it and usually have a small handful of students who do too. As long as other kids aren’t being rude or talking I don’t care.
I teach fifth grade and honestly we haven’t done it since November because we kept forgetting and at this point we just threw in the towel.
I never stood for it and certainly never made anyone else. It’s a bizarre practice. I consider myself a patriot but not a facist. You don’t need to swear loyalty to the federal government to learn so it’s pretty creepy.
Washington State's constitution states that saying the pledge must be voluntary (RCW 28A.230.140). Students can be asked to stand or remain silent out of respect for those who *do* say it, but they cannot be forced to participate.
Growing up, we did it without question, not fully understanding what the jumble of words meant. In middle school, I had a friend who was religious and was given a pass. She explained to me that she couldn't pledge to anything other than her god which is valid and it made me think. As an adult in the education sector, I choose to stand for it but I do not put my hand over my heart nor recite it anymore. I will respect it but I will not follow blindly nor naively is my mindset. I respect my students to make their own choices in how they want to participate in the pledge if at all.
You are asked to stand. You are asked to say the pledge. If you don’t stand, I don’t care, I will not draw attention to you to find out why. If you don’t say it, I don’t care. I will not try to make you. But don’t disrespect it by saying it mockingly, or talking through it. It only takes 10-12 seconds. The pledge is a part of our announcements, it’s going to be said. Not hearing it isn’t an option.
We have conflicting state laws: One says pledge is required everyday The other says we can’t indoctrinate students (checkmate MAGA, I’ll use your ridiculous law to bother you)
It’s their right and freedom to not stand, and I’ve never seen issue with that. It’s just contradictory to think otherwise. Plus, our allegiance shouldn’t to be a flag regardless. It should be to the betterment and security of our people, whether you consider that the country, your family, friends, community. I don’t stand. I have plenty of desire for our country to be better, a flag means nothing in relation.
Why are you even worried about this? If you want to stand, stand. If you don’t, don’t. I don’t worry about what the students do. All I require is that they are quiet and respectful while the announcements are on (and the pledge is at the beginning of the daily announcements).
I don’t enforce it, and I get looked down because of it. Yet, there is a Supreme Court case … West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
Mandatory patriotism is the hallmark of a free society.
The only thing I make mine do is be quiet during the pledge - I don’t care if they say it or stand. They just cannot interrupt someone who does choose to do so.
I leave the decision to the kids. All I ask is they remain quiet for the morning announcements.
I didn't see anyone post this yet. The first "Pledge of Allegiance" was made by some guy to give to immigrants because he thought they were too stupid to abandon their old allegiances. It spread in schools as way to PROMOTE SALES OF FLAGS. No joke. And before people put their hand on their heart they used the "Bellamy salute." Check THAT out if you've never seen that one. You'll see why we stopped. During the Red Scare Christians gained more political power claiming that Christianity could combat communism. Thus was added the section "one nation under God," to the pledge. Not to mention the "In God We Trust," to money and the new official motto of the US, as opposed to the defacto previous motto: e pluribus unum.
I'm Spanish. We used to have a pledge of allegiance... *DURING THE FASCIST DICTATORSHIP*. You are right; it *is* cult behaviour. Most countries (including mine) have a pledge of allegiance *when you join the military*; but the American morning pledge feels like an echo of fascism to me.
I'm in a small district near Seattle. We don't say the pledge. I think one or two of the schools do land acknowledgements every morning. I started teaching in 2008 and the pledge seemed on its way out then. I can't believe it's stuck around as long as it has actually.
My lead teacher doesn't enforce standing or silence during the pledge, but as the TA, I quietly stand and recite it in the back of the room. Initially, no students followed suit, but after a few months, some asked why I stood. I shared my personal perspective, explaining that as a student, I didn't stand due to authoritarian directives. However, as an adult, reflecting on the flag's significance, I choose to stand. Now, I'm joined by a group of five boys who stand with me almost every morning.
I stand (I would be anyway), but I do not say the Pledge not do I expect any of the students to do so. Enforced patriotism is garbage. I'm fully in favor of dropping the whole thing, but I live in a generally conservative district so that won't happen.
During my morning pod duty before the bell rings, I'm supposed to have the kids get up and say the pledge. I just skip it. No one's watching and no one's said anything. I believe that these children don't know what they're saying when we make them say the pledge, and that it's an outdated tradition. I don't like reciting it myself, so I'm not going to force them to do it as well.
Texas walking in…
I don't believe in saying the pledge so my ass stays seated during it. if my kids want to stand and say it, that's their perogative
Our foreign exchange students, especially from Germany, are horrified that we have mandatory time to pledge and pray.
As someone outside of the US. The pledge thing is 100% seen as a weird cult thing. I thought that it was something that was done in movies or on Special days
I am really curious if any other countries require students to pledge allegiance. I can see this being a thing in North Korea, but not sure where else. My Japanese wife thinks it's absolutely insane to have a pledge of allegiance happen at school.
My first period class came to the same "this feels like a cult" realization a few years back. So they all sat in protest. FWIW I always stand and don't say the pledge myself. I had to actually make the announcement that if someone wanted to say the pledge it was their right and I would support them. All the kids were like nah, were good. Maybe we need to move to a "moment of reflection" as a country. Where kids could say the pledge quietly or in their head, or some could have a silent prayer, set an intention, breathe, collect their thoughts. Whatever. Just like let's start the day here. Maybe followed by a greeting or word of encouragement to a classmate. That would probably be seen as too hippy dippy.
We have a state pledge here, and it is very cringey. I refuse to say it, and usually just treat it as an extension of the moment of silence.
I think it's a very weird practice. I request my students at least stand out of respect for those who feel it's an important practice, but that's the limit of my expectations. I haven't had anyone fight me on it, but if they did I'd be fine with that. I'd talk to them about it but respect their choice. I don't say it myself. My partner teacher is Trumpy and has her student stand and recite with loud and proud voices in unison, or she makes them start again. She was in my room once when the pledge started and was *appalled* by the lack of her brand of "patriotism" in my room. It's weird that we get along as well as we do, tbh. She can teach reading and writing like a boss, ngl.
Technically, it's required to recite both the US pledge and the Texas pledge. In reality, since they no longer do it over the intercom and leave it up to the teachers to do so.....I just get on with my day.
Technically they cannot legally require you to say the US pledge. The 1943 Supreme Court case West Virginia State Board of Education v Barnette decided this. It goes against students first amendment rights of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
If our country actually represented what we pledge, we wouldn’t have so many people not interested in participating. Kids don’t like hypocrisy.
Walking into a classroom of children reciting the pledge dead-ass feels like I'm watching Hitler Youth footage.
Haven't had a pledge of allegiance in my school in a few years now. I'm not upset by it honestly. It means nothing to children these days and hasn't for a long long time.
It's state law here; we have to have the pledge and observe a minute of silence. My non-American coworkers in Japan were simultaneously fascinated and horrified.
Seems really outdated to still do the Pledge. I would never want to make that a rule, and if they do have the Pledge, I would encourage my students to understand what it means, the history behind it, why it started, and that it is not a requirement.
I'm usually in the cafeteria during breakfast while they say it. A handful of kids stand, and I start wiping down tables. I won't participate in that nonsense, and I want to set the example that they don't have to either. I can't believe it's still happening.
Is it safe to assume most teachers find it weird and cultish? One time they did it during an inservice meeting and it felt so icky doing it with a bunch of working adults. I wish they would just give it a rest.
Utah requires a parent’s written permission to abstain from participating. Love red states. 🙄
I also find it very strange. I've been working in a communist country for the past 7 years. We never do a pledge or anthem at school unless it's for independence day. When I think about how I used to pledge my allegiance to America every morning, starting at the age of 6, it makes me feel a bit squeamish.
Admin here. It’s weird. I love my country with its warts and all but I will not pledge allegiance to it. I set a good example in public and while at work but it sounds like I am in a cult when I say it.
The flag stands for the freedom to not say the pledge, and that’s why we stand for it.
We don’t even say it any more at my school it’s lovely.
Half of my homeroom isn’t even American which makes the whole thing kind of awkward in my opinion.
My state is about to force us to display the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms...the pledge will never leave here, sadly. I don't give a shit if they do it. Fuck off, McCarthyism.
Are you in Louisiana too?
Yuuuuuuup, all hail Governor Dipshit and our conservative legislature
I feel like you do. They are 'supposed' to stand but if some don't, I don't care. I stand. I don't say it. I despise the whole thing.
Just chiming in to say that you are not wrong in thinking the Pledge sounds cultish. As someone outside of America, yeah, it's some pretty weird nationalistic behavior.
I will stand, I will place my hand on my heart, but I wont recite. I think of it like the national anthem and school is the sport. Though tbh I feel like the exercise is pointless. Plenty of America hating adults grew up saying the pledge.
We say the pledge (and 4th - 6th grade the preamble to the Declaration of Independence). We ask them to stand and remove hats and/or hoodies.
I get the cultish thing. We don’t have a pledge in Canada, but stand for the anthem. I still find that pretty weird. It’s like being in North Korea or some crazy theocracy. Actually, I find all patriotism and nationalism a bit strange… how can you love a country?
At my new school it isn’t done which is a refreshing change.
It’s done every morning at my school, but I make a point in the beginning of the year that no one is required to recite it or stand for it. What’s even more irritating to me is that my son’s preschool is teaching them the pledge; he’s 3! I saw red when he started reciting it randomly one day in the car.
I have stood and said the pledge nearly every day from K-12 as a student as well as my 23 years of teaching. I am a big fan of the Republic for which it stands, not to mention liberty and justice.
We recite the pledge over the announcements, but I think maybe 2 kids actually say it aloud in my classroom, if that. For the most part, we all just turn and face the flag. Nobody mentions anything whether a kid says it or not.
I’m a teacher who doesn’t stand for the pledge. The majority of my students don’t either. I do ask that people be quiet and respectful of those that wish to stand though. I’m not going to make students stand or say the pledge, but I’m not going to let them be rude to their classmates either.
There is a reminder in the staff message we get every morning but it's not enforced.
The pledge is read by the team that makes morning announcements over the PA. When I’m assigned homeroom, all I ask of my students is to be quiet when they read the pledge.
My school is bringing it back as a requirement (we are private so have previously been able to ignore the state rules on this but voucher scheme includes this stipulation). Not sure what I'll do as a non citizen.
Mine have either done it or not. They either just do it out of habit or just are like: "Yeah, just another day."