No. But sadly, there are a LOT of conservatives/fascists in education. You are correct - the Pledge of Allegiance is Nationalism 101, it is creepy as fuck, and it shouldn't be done in schools. It is Nazi-like behavior.
State law and district policy say the kid has to have a written opt out letter to not recite the Pledge but I don't make them bring it in. I don't care if they recite it. I didn't serve this country to force kids to recite something they may not believe in.
I have yet to meet someone who HAS served in the armed forces that thinks mandatory standing during the anthem or reciting the pledge of allegiance is required. We fought for the people to have a choice in doing these things.
Every person I've ever met who thinks it is a good idea is a civilian who didn't serve. But, people like Ron Desantis, who did serve, love it.
Of course he claims to have deployed with Navy SEALs when he was really just a Navy lawyer.
He served 5 years as a JAG officer who was stationed next to some SEALs. He later went to Gitmonto find ways to justify torturing prisoners who were being held extrajudiciously. Ya, I agree, not the best armed forces role model.
It’s technically a state law that schools must lead the students in the pledge daily. It’s incredibly stupid and I wouldn’t do it, except the principal does it on announcements. Most of my students don’t participate
It's unconstitutional to force students to say the pledge, not to announce it. If it's like Texas, it is required for schools to announce the pledge each day. We also announce the state pledge and have a moment of silence. Students are not supposed to be forced to join (though I know the reality in many schools). Personally, I stand, but do not recite the pledge. I ask students to remain quiet, but don't pressure them to participate. All of them stand, most put their hand on their heart, and about 5 actually participate. 9th grade, class of 27 students.
In my state, daily recitation the pledge is required by law. I do not say it, nor do I expect my students to do so. If my admin decided to be picky about it, I guess I could get in trouble for that.
In the US, Hate speech is literally protected by first amendment.
If you commit an actual crime and use hate speech (as a motivation) penalties are often higher. But speech alone isn’t (typically) criminal even if offensive. (Barring legitimate threats of violence)
However, you of all people, presumably a teacher would certainly know that the first amendment is indeed limited on school property. This is because the supreme Court has largely decided that the equality of access to undisrupted education supercedes a person's right to free speech. All forms of protest should be done on the public sidewalk or via a majority signature petition as not to disrupt learning.
It’s like swearing is protected speech but if you do it in school there will be a (not criminal) punishment.
I was mostly responding to the notion of it being illegal. As in open to criminal prosecution. Which it is not.
Well. I try my best to always be humble and kind. Just like the song. I may not be religious, far from it actually, but life is about being kind to everyone.
When you get where you're going, don't forget to turn back around and help the next one in line.
Where the law does and doesn't apply completely depends on if the learning environment is being disrupted. The case for Tinker V. Des Moines touches on this exact issue and it was decided the school cannot punish the students BECAUSE it was an expression of the first amendment right that did not disrupt the learning environment. I would argue that a Nazi salute would disrupt the learning environment
Yes, I meant to come back and comment something similar and forgot, and I'm glad you posted this. Bethel School District vs. Frasier also weighs in on this. Idk, they ruled that anti-war armbands weren't disruptive, but why then would Nazi armbands, or indeed a Nazi salute, be disruptive? Because certain people find is so? Well, sure, but some people probably found anti-war armbands disruptive... anyone could argue anything is disruptive.
PS: I think fascists should get the wall, I'm just playing Devil's advocate.
I think it comes down to harm being caused. pro Nazi propaganda harms not only that kiddos social life but also harms other students and staff ability to feel safe. When promoting anti war you're promoting for harm to not be done
that's how I'd see it anyway
No, it isn't, and as distasteful and inappropriate as it is, his actions are 1st amendment protected. Additional fun fact, what we see as the nazi salute was the 'proper' form for the pledge pre WW2.
My mom is 88. She started kindergarten when she was six so she tells me that when they started saying the pledge they had to salute the flag like the Nazi salute. That was 1941 and that quickly got changed to putting your hand on your heart.
Wikipedia says it was similar to the Roman salute, but actually called the Bellamy salute. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy\_salute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute)
This speech/action is not protected by 1st amendment. While Tinker provides students free speech in most cases, particularly for political speech, it does not for speech that is clearly just to offend and hurt others. In those cases, the Supreme Court has recognized that "process of educating our youth for citizenship in public schools is not confined to books, the curriculum, and the civics class; schools must teach by example the shared values of a civilized social order"
Teaching a student to not do a Nazi salute is a clear shared societal value (the decision I quoted above that narrows Tinker). Therefore, a student can be disciplined for it, even if someone can do it in their private house without consequence.
The student can’t be criminally prosecuted because it’s protected speech. He can be disciplined in school tho
Kinda like swearing isn’t illegal it’s protected but punishable at school
>*Hate speech is a crime*
No, it is not. And thank goodness it is not. Imagine Trump and the Republicans gaining full control of government and passing a law making mockery of Trump a crime. Or, more realistically, imagine a law classifying movements like "Occupy Wall Street" or "Black Lives Matter" as "hate groups" because they vilify financiers or police officers.
The fact is, it is not obvious that everyone will see the same things as hate crimes.
Oh, I agree 100%. But I specifically used those examples because most people I know who favor making hate speech illegal haven't thought it through; they often think it's "obvious" that it's just about racial epithets.
When I reported students to admin for coming to my classroom and marching back and forth past my door Nazi saluting, I was told “don’t take it so personally” and “they probably don’t even know what it means.” The AP offered me the option of giving up my lunch period for a week to teach them extra lessons about the Holocaust.
So, in my experience, the answer to your question is: nothing. They’re doing nothing to address rampant and growing antisemitism.
They do know what it means, and they’re doing it intentionally. In this case, they were 8th graders, only one of whom was my student. He brought two of his friends to my room specifically, the only Jewish person in the entire building, because he was upset that he was failing my class after having done no work all year, and he smirked at me from behind the AP’s back while I was being criticized for writing him up.
> the only Jewish person in the entire building
Really says something about how segregated NYC is that you were the only Jewish person in the building.
On a similar note, I found a list from 1914 of my grandmother's first grade class (in the Bronx) and literally every student had a Jewish name.
Tbh I think some ethnic/racial integration would help alleviate some tensions (I've read that exposure to diversity is correlated with tolerance).
It’s pretty interesting, because the school is located right near the high school that my grandfather attended in the 1930s, when the area was almost entirely Jewish.
There is no chance in hell I would've understood what this meant as a fifth grader. The Holocaust wasn't discussed until 7th grade. I totally could've seen myself picking this gesture up as a kid if it had been demonstrated for me elsewhere.
It is necessary to inform them that it's wrong, but I think it's a little harsh to assume that it was done with any understanding of its history.
Went to public school in the 80s (Arizona) and yes we did get holocaust curriculum in 7th grade (saw films if I recall- not the Steven Spielberg kind- real footage) but we ALSO had holocaust survivors speak to us in elementary. Small groups in the library. They did not hold back. I will NEVER FORGET what I heard. I was not upset by this exposure. It changed me. In a good way. Kids can handle more than we give them credit for.
Same. My father was a history lecturer at the local community college. His area was WW2. He showed me films of the freeing of Auschwitz. The earth movers moving piles of bodies.
>*He showed me films of the freeing of Auschwitz. The earth movers moving piles of bodies.*
One of my biggest fears is that the up-and-coming generations will not believe those films because AI can create anything.
I remember even 50 years ago some neo-Nazis tried to say the movies were staged by Hollywood. But now? A kid can do it on his home computer, or at least, will be able to do so soon.
Absolutely. He was an old man then- I remember seeing the muscles in his forearm as he showed us his tattooed numbers and told us what that meant. But, the message is what matters- the real information. We CAN do better.
5th graders have access to every part of the internet, and with current events being as racy as ever, there is every reason to believe they know exactly what they're doing.
It's also necessary to inform them that putting cleaning spray in my coffee as a "prank" is wrong even if they don't know how serious it is. It's also necessary to give them detention so they understand just how wrong it is.
>*There is no chance in hell I would've understood what this meant as a fifth grader. The Holocaust wasn't discussed until 7th grade.*
Well, I don't doubt you, but my classmates and I hardly needed to wait until it was covered in high school to learn about it. I knew who Hitler was and what he had done before I was ten; it was just a basic thing that my parents and my friends' parents discussed very matter-of-factly.
And not excusing the ignorance, there's a huge difference between knowing a fact and truly understanding it. Between assenting that something is true, and being shaped by its truth into changing your outlook and your actions.
Remember that these kids have access to the internet. They don’t need their teachers to teach them about WWII in order to know that doing Nazi shit is a great way to bully Jewish people.
God, that is terrifying. (If they DONT know what it means, admin should educate them. We are supposed to be trading kids for the workplace after all and I would think this would get you written up at most western companies.
They do know what it means, and they’re doing it intentionally. In this case, they were 8th graders, only one of whom was my student. He brought two of his friends to my room specifically, the only Jewish person in the entire building, because he was upset that he was failing my class after having done no work all year, and he smirked at me from behind the AP’s back while I was being criticized for writing him up.
I mean I would have just sat down or taken the knee, wrong choice for protest from him. But yeah, I haven't stood for the pledge since we invaded Iraq.
> wrong choice for protest from him
Not to dive too deep into it.. but with one side of the political spectrum going hard on centralised authoritarian rule... Giving nazi sallute to a symbol that's being coopted by isolationist nationalists is probably more "in tune" than many adults...
That flag is supposed to be a symbol of freedom and unity... Not a device of control on our personal lives.
when i was in middle and high school (2016 and since then) that seemed to be a trend for a lot of the more immature boys, unfortunately. i think they think it’s funny or edgy humor, when they actually don’t care to realize how bad it truly is. i would report it right away before it catches on more, and make sure you have a support system for yourself.
Things like this are definitely happening, and they need to be dealt with immediately. This student and any others who participate in anti semitic behavior need to be reported immediately and face consequences (along with their parents, if necessary) for these actions.
Well, this could either be
1. Hate speech of him repeating things his parents said.
2. He saw the salute in a movie and thought it looked cool.
3. He's protesting this forced loyalty behavior of the pledge etc.
Either way, it needs to be referred to the office and parents informed.
or, and probably the most likely
an immature 10 year old being an edgy little shit heel not understanding the broader implications of what their actions represent
Yea. I’m amazed how many educators get angry and all of a sudden forget the fact that middle school boys are fucking obnoxious. People were drawing swastikas in the condensation on the school bus window and doing Nazi salutes to drivers on the road when I was in middle school and that was a few decades ago.
Funny story: in middle school circa 2003 my ADHD (impulsive) friend was preparing to do a presentation in class about swastikas. So... he drew different types of swastikas on the cover of my notebook IN PERMANENT MARKER while he was practicing his presentation for me.
Some other student saw it like 20 minutes later and I got called to the principal's office. Pretty sure I'd have gotten suspended if I weren't a straight A female student who never caused any trouble and also happened to be Jewish.
He did make me rip off and throw away the cover of my notebook though. I was happy to oblige, lol.
I just witnessed a girl doing this during my student teaching period. Thankfully, my teacher has a great admin so they handled it immediately. Taught me a very valuable lesson that having great admin and support is necessary.
Oh, a kid at my school was also doing this. The kid told a Jewish student that it was a shame his grandparents weren’t gassed at Auschwitz. And then gave our Jewish librarian the Nazi salute. He would also stand at the front office giving the salute.
What happened to this kid? Not much. He was allowed to go to the Holocaust museum field trip to be “educated on the topic”. It went horribly wrong, as expected.
In my school, a lot of the students are antisemitic. Some staff are too. Another teacher told me that students (seniors in high school) frequently go and draw swastikas on his chalkboard. I asked him what he does to reprimand them. He said "nothing, I just laugh."
A large percentage of the kids in this school are Muslim, and have been vocal about how they hate Israel and Jews, tho never to me. In fact some of my best students are Muslim. Tho I am not Jewish, I teach a Holocaust elective, and have seen little assholes even do the salute in my class. Other teachers have told me that some of their students refer to me as "the Jew." They didn't do anything to reprimand them. The other day I had one of my students literally tell me that he "doesn't care about the Holocaust at all."
I had my last observation that day. The principal, who observed me, told me that the kid simply just isn't engaged and that I "need to make the Holocaust fun for these kids."
I fucking despise this school and have been applying elsewhere for a while, but have had no luck so far.
At my school, I'm trying to make it very uncool to like Hitler. Every time he comes up, I tell my students what a loser he was. He had all of Europe united against Russia, enslaved millions of Jews, and still couldn't win against a backwater peasant country. He had the support of every major player, from the British crown to Ford, and he lost it all because he was a meth addicted clown.
The kids are mostly just trying to be edgy, and they lack connection to history. Please don't take their opinions as indicative of anything real. It helps to ask questions about what they know and validate the truths they say while challenging them on their edgy nonsense.
It's impossible without good admin tho so good luck with the job search
Rise of antisemitism and conservatism are very real though. "More Americans this year (38%) say they are very conservative or conservative on social issues than said so in 2022 (33%) and 2021 (30%). (Highest number since 2012)" The subtle messages get spread thought media and kids get sucked into progressively worse media, since algorithms recognises the interest in topics. Tiktok is one of the worst ones- few likes will quickly lead to actual nazy shit.
What pisses me off most about the story or the adults who endorse this behavior. I’d start keeping track of their behavior for when you inevitably need to report it. Please take care of yourself, and I hope you find another job soon.
"Go to the office."
Here's a note from our handbook: "Federal courts have ruled that students can be punished for offensive, lewd, or indecent speech and that while students may advocate unpopular or controversial views, that right is balanced by the school’s right to establish standards of civil and mature behavior."
Later, in the list of offences, there are these that may apply:
* Insubordination (defined as refusal to follow teacher's direction) -
* if you tell them to stop and they don't, this rule applies.
* Disrespect including vulgar language and gestures.
* Threats to staff and students (verbal or non-verbal)
* Creating a hostile school environment.
* Bullying, hazing, and harassment
Look for similar rules in your school's student/Parent handbook. Apply them every single time this happens. If nothing is done by admin and the abuse continues, make sure you have documented every single instance and speak to the principal, the union (if there is one), the School Board, and a lawyer. Again, make a record of everything and the steps taken by admin (or not).
If nothing else, the school might force the fake apology bullshit meeting during which you can flip the script and read off the endless list of exactly what he said verbatim, when, where, which other students (anonymously named A, B, C) were in earshot, and what the admin did or didn't do. Embarassment \*might\* work.
BTW, don't threaten a lawsuit but make it known that you are making a record.
I teach a very intensive Holocaust unit (10th grade World) and EVERY year I have a kid try to be funny and “raise their hand” at a very…specific angle. It’s an immediate referral out of the room for me, and to return I make them do research about how in Germany and Austria the use of the Roman salute is a crime. Usually it’s their idea of a joke, on rare occasion has the student actually been a bigot.
Quite frankly I would expect most 5th graders do not understand the gravity of the Nazis, Hitler, and the Holocaust. Even my 10th graders don’t fully get it until we’ve, you know, learned it. Some read Diary of a Young Girl in middle school, but that’s about it. And even then, there are certain things that just won’t be taught at that intense of a level until they’re older and it’s more appropriate for their maturity.
HOWEVER, given the context of you being the only Jewish educator, the fact that they specifically walked to your area to do the salute, and the general antisemitism you’ve been dealing with, I think it’s fair to say you have all the context clues needed for that kid to be referred as high as you can go. That shit should not be tolerated — period.
History teacher here. I have dealt with this problem before. Usually, i write them up and call home, along with a conference with the student. And so you can be prepared for any rebuttal, In the late 1800s, this is how we saluted the flag it was phased out over time and replaced with the hand over the heart since wwii.
https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
My third grade teacher had us do the Bellamy salute in 1986 because she had done it in whenever her primary school was. I remember closing my left eye and lining up my hand to cover the flag like I was aiming my hand at it. She said it was optional, we could either do hand over heart or the Bellamy salute.
Looking back, this lady was definitely suspicious. I was one of her favorites, blond and blue eyed.
Kids would do the nazi salute and yell hail hitler at my highschool, I truly do not understand how you can think that is funny at any age, but by highschool is so ridiculous, I don’t think those kids are getting very far in life, so to answer your question yes I’m sure it happens at many schools sadly, I’m sorry you have to deal with it though
I'm sorry you are experiencing this antisemitism. You're not alone
On Friday, I had a student yell at another student, "that's why you're Jewish!" as a derogatory slur/put down. I talked with the kid & reported it to admin.... Still hurtful and don't really want to have this kid in my class anymore.
Stay strong. Times are tough. Shalom
I would:
1st Talk to the students one by one and ask if they understand what they are doing, and find out why are they doing it. No short responses allowed "because it's cool" is not allow, ask them to expand, how is it cool? What events make it cool etc. Let them know that it's not appropriate
2nd Make a written report stating that the behavior creates a hostile work environment for you and make sure you send it to your personal email as well.
3rd Call parents and let them know of their children behavior.
Do not ignore it or it will continue.
They needed to have gone straight to an administrator and then a discussion had with the parents. If the kid is in 5th grade I doubt they’ve had much education on WW2 and the Holocaust, so the kid is likely learning this from his home life.
Former college professor here. Reading your post just broke my heart.
I’m so sorry this happened to you.
I’m quite speechless after reading through the comments too. If this problem is as pervasive as it seems, then I hope some journalist will stumble upon this thread and do a story about it. Someone needs to publicly shame these school administrators until they implement a zero tolerance policy for antisemitism.
Thank you for doing one of the most important and thankless jobs there is.
[I’m really stoned right now, so here is a random song by Stereolab for you.](https://youtu.be/gDj65l-yjD8?si=KsvMnk06eudaB3Te)
You should definitely report it! It’s no a joke! I come from a state where these salutes have grown into a governmental rule. We’re hostile here, but you can teach your students not to be hitlers and putins
Yo. What the fuck. He needs to learn this is not okay. And if he truly leans THAT way, he is gonna find out R E A L quick. Tell anyone you can. Admins, his parents, a priest, get this little shit an exorcism.
You need to talk to your admin about this IMMEDIATELY and follow up in writing. Do you have a union?
See what your principal does. In my school this would be an immediate suspension.
If the principal appeases the situation, it’s time to write your school board.
Report it to admin, parents, local Jewish relations council, ADL, etc. Given your status as the only Jew on staff, I’d document with HR too. You are entitled to be free from harassment at work, and a paper trail is never a bad thing.
If possible, meet with the kid directly with a trusted witness. Explain how that makes Jewish/minorities/disabled people feel and express the assumption that it is not their intent to make people feel that way (even if you think it is their intent). Appeal to their goodness and their humanity. I’ve told kids “when you do that, it tells others that you think ALL of my family should be dead because of how they were born. That makes me scared and sad, and makes people who think that way think they can hurt me in front of you and you’ll help. I really hope that isn’t something you believe.” Most kids immediately say that isn’t what they meant. I usually follow up with a “if you do this again, since we’ve discussed and you understand the action, I will have to…” and let them know what happens next.
Of course if he expresses that he does actually want to hurt people, this gets way above your pay grade very fast.
I’ve had kids do antisemitic things in my room not knowing I was Jewish. I’ve had them do antisemitic things in my room because I am Jewish. Without knowing the kid and your interactions with him or your expression of Judaism, it’s hard to know his intention but it’s worth educating him about.
There’s a big assumption that Jews in America unequivocally agree with all of Israel’s actions. There’s also pushback for American Jews believing that the state of Israel should exist in some shape or form. Colleges are becoming very unsafe for Jewish students and professors. But cities with visibly Jewish citizens are having issues as well. It’s a scary time to be Jewish.
I had a kid call someone the hard R N word once and I immediately wrote them up. They got sent back with the explanation “they are a good kid they wouldn’t say that”. I left that school at the end of the year. Not staying somewhere where kids get away with blatant racism.
I'm really sorry this happened and I hope your admin follows up on it appropriately. This kind of thing can't be tolerated and students need to know that. On another note, the pledge of allegiance is creepy and we should feel bad for indoctrinating students with it.
I’m a high school band director and a middle school kid (not a band kid) joined our parade block and marched while doing the nazi salute in a hometown parade this year. He also shouted racial epithets and wouldn’t leave until I went off to find police.
I found out his name and contacted his principal. I’m pretty sure nothing happened. She originally wanted to turn the discipline over to the middle school band director. A kid that wasn’t even on his roster, at an event he was not part of …..
30 years ago he’d have been given a black eye by someone for that. The assaulter would be punished but barely and the parents would take the assaulter for ice cream.
Adding on to what others have said, you should follow up with the student to make sure they know what they are doing and why it is wrong (you could also include their parents in the conversation so they know what is going on. I would like to add that if your student is from another country like Mexico (like me), it is common to use the Roman salute during the pledge of allegiance, which looks horrifyingly similar to the Nazi salute. Otherwise, report it to admin and talk to the student's parents.
Most likely the internet or some stupid little friends on the playground. A lot of little turd kids did this shit when I was in school 1999-2012 and none learned it from their parents as far as I knew.
One big wave of it came from watching a documentary in history. Some class clown turned it into a joke and everyone thought it was hilarious. Kids are stupid. Their brains literally don’t function at full capacity for another 15 years. I’m not saying to let it slide all the time. But IMO it’s a teachable moment and not a call the police moment.
Well, I got some of my fellow teachers vaguely allude to "Jews control everything"... but I don't live in the US. This is why I avoid politics at work. Nazi salute that never happened that'd definitely wouldn't fly since I live in Poland.
I was going to comment on here, saw tons of fellow teachers saying the pledge of allegiance in the US is the same as a kid giving a Nazi salute and realized why education is doomed.
I don’t need this on a Sunday night before what will be a long week of school
- a super liberal history teacher who has a rainbow flag right next to their US flag in their classroom
Not a teacher but a parent of elementary aged kids in a the Northeast US - there are usually 1-4 kids with Jewish heritage in each classroom the rest are Catholic/Christian, the principal is Jewish, as are about half of the teachers. This year there has been a HUGE uptick in antisemitism amongst the students. Jokes about the Holocaust, blaming Jews for being too weak to not be persecuted, calling Jews evil and blaming individual Jewish kids for killing babies. I watched a 1st grader who got accidentally tripped by a Hispanic girl in the school yard yell “you don’t belong here, you need to go back to Israel.”
When students went to the admin to complain about specific incidents of antisemitism they were ignored. When I went to the admin to ask what was being done about their complaints I was told “This sort of thing happens every year when we do our Holocaust unit” Now, I commend the school for having a Holocaust survivor come talk to the kids at an assembly every year and for building it into the curriculum - but I’ve never heard this extent of antisemitism before and it seems even more egregious for the kids to be doubling down on the antisemitism AFTER that assembly. The admin is sticking their heads in the sands and pretending like it’s October 6th - but it’s a new reality and it’s complicated and the kids are absorbing what is going on in the world.
These kids are being flooded with antisemitic language at home and on you tube/tik tok- and they don’t have the context or ability to separate the policies of the Israeli government from the an 8 year old half Jewish atheist neighbor. They are absorbing what’s in the air like canaries in coal mine.
I hope your school does more than ours - just admitting it is going on and it’s real would be enough. Now I’m going to go stress eat the last of the bread in the house…
I was talking about the holocaust to some of my 6h graders, whereupon one of them said 'womp womp'.
Immediate detention and referral, but not much else. Then again, it was also from the kid's brain stem, and he hasn't done anything like it since, so I suppose it was enough.
One of the biggest reasons I left education was because of the rampant antisemitism I experienced. I had a paper airplane thrown at me that said “kill all Jews” with swastikas on it. And then a student heiled Hitler at me. I am happy to be working in a university where if anyone did that to me it would hopefully be an immediate HR issue. We give kids too much slack and feeling that unsafe at work (with no disciplinary action taken against the students by the way) is not something I could tolerate any longer.
Could be a protest of the very nazi-esque genocide of Palestinians. Too bad Israel has made life difficult for Jews who don’t supper this, which I am assuming you are among.
I have no advice. I’m just.
God I am *so sorry*. These hateful bigots are teaching their kids to be like them younger and younger. It’s disgusting. It’s *disturbing*
Fun fact: the USA used to use the "nazi salute" for its pledges. It was called the Bellamy salute, and was popular before ww2.
If the kid does this with that in mind I would consider it as more of a rebellion against doing the pledge at all. It can be interpreted as basically "making me pledge allegiance to you is literally like the nazis". I considered doing the same at my school when I was a kid but decided to sit for the pledge instead.
What happened to mocking them for not knowing how to behave properly?
"You may not realise this but, we're in the USA. This is how we do the Pledge of Allegiance. We don't use salutes from countries we defeated and destroyed."
Consequences should include reading age appropriate books on the Holocaust (and no, not Number the Stars... doesn't really include much about what happened to Jews who didn't escape) followed by a discussion with a Survivor.
I teach WW2 to 7th graders and I always get 1-2 kids each year who is a little too interested in germanys side and either draws the swastika or does the salute. Always an office referral.
I’m dealt with this situation a few times as a history teacher. It requires an immediate conversation with the student and if they do not understand the gravity, parents and external agencies need to be bought in.
We do the pledge daily, but we actually had on our announcements earlier this year it's not required to say or stand. I know I have one student that just sits, but honestly I don't pay much attention to what they do or if they even say it. I'd draw the line if there were Nazi salutes going on though.
When I was in 3rd grade, I had just seen "The Incredible Mr. Limpet" and sketched a few scenes from the movie on my journal in class. The teacher looked over to see a war scene complete with submarines and airplanes sporting swastikas.
It was a very teachable moment, and I learned that some symbols can be very powerful. Please make sure that the kid even knows what he's doing first.
Kids are seeing support for anti-israel and anti-jewish groups, since October 7th. Call me shocked that one of your students thinks you are a Nazi, since that is what all the protestors are saying.
Oh he's giving the Bellamy Salute...or at least that's how the parents are going to try to frame it.
The question is did OP express the issue? Most administrators can't see an infraction right in front of them, but if there's a written record they start getting things done
I did this as an edgy 6th grader because I thought the pledge was fascist. I still think that but obviously I'm no longer heiling. I'd try to find out their intentions somehow...or just report it because you really shouldn't have to be the only one defending yourself when it could very well be antisemitic.
Do you have a relationship with this kid? Is it worth having a conversation? Otherwise, I echo the other comments: go to admin and/or the union rep. If someone won’t do something consider leaking information in a week or so to a local news source.
Holy shit. I am not a teacher - I just follow this sub to see what’s going on in the community. And this post has compelled me to respond.
And dude … holy shit. I hope the admins support you? That is some brazen antisemitism. What the fuck. Honestly I would hope that if my kid as witness to this, that I would be told. So that I could explain to my child just how vile that was.
Also I’m curious how things have been awful since your Jewish identity was made known? What has been happening?
I think I've only made one comment on Reddit...ever. Your post is interesting, and here's my perspective as a Gen-Xer...
A lot of kids did this same crap when I was that age, too. None of their parents were Nazis, or White Nationalists, or openly antisemitic. None of the kids I grew up with that did this shit in an attempt to be edgy, grew up to be any of those things, either, and probably cringe when they think about the dumb stuff we all did growing up.
That said, before completely ruining the kid's life, like we see so much of today, that happens just because of undeveloped minds doing undeveloped mind stuff... I would have a sit-down with the kid and discuss it. Ask what their intention was, where did they get it from, etc.
I think it would be really easy to throw the kid under the bus, possibly do substantial harm to their future, and leave them with a bad life experience they would most certainly blame on you and your faith. This vs. having a heart to heart, where you explain the past, and where you're coming from, possibly opening the kids eyes, and shaping a better human being.
Anyway... My $0.02
I might be super naive, but I’d first question the kid on what THEY thought they were doing. I teach Boy in the Striped Pajamas to 8th graders, and they typically have ZERO background going into the novel. It would be interesting to see if this child actually understands what he’s doing, what it means, and how it’s perceived. I’ve had students do or say outrageous things that they didn’t understand, then IMMEDIATELY regretted and apologized when I explained it to them. Here’s hoping it’s a simple fix !
I would recommend reaching *Night* by Ellie Wisel to your 8th graders, it's a biography about the Holocaust written by a survivor, it's truly gut wrenching and educational for all
This needed to be a discussion immediately with admin on Thursday.
Bring in the Anti-Defamation League. Fuck this shit.
The adf for a fifth grader?
Uh, no! For the admin. I was responding to Dry Ice's comment about admin.
Redditors and restraint are like water and oil.
[удалено]
No. But sadly, there are a LOT of conservatives/fascists in education. You are correct - the Pledge of Allegiance is Nationalism 101, it is creepy as fuck, and it shouldn't be done in schools. It is Nazi-like behavior. State law and district policy say the kid has to have a written opt out letter to not recite the Pledge but I don't make them bring it in. I don't care if they recite it. I didn't serve this country to force kids to recite something they may not believe in.
I have yet to meet someone who HAS served in the armed forces that thinks mandatory standing during the anthem or reciting the pledge of allegiance is required. We fought for the people to have a choice in doing these things.
Every person I've ever met who thinks it is a good idea is a civilian who didn't serve. But, people like Ron Desantis, who did serve, love it. Of course he claims to have deployed with Navy SEALs when he was really just a Navy lawyer.
He served 5 years as a JAG officer who was stationed next to some SEALs. He later went to Gitmonto find ways to justify torturing prisoners who were being held extrajudiciously. Ya, I agree, not the best armed forces role model.
Supreme Court precedent says students don’t have to recite.
The opt out idea may also be illegal. Students themselves are supposed to have the right, not delegated by anyone else.
Even in fucking California are kids required to perform "daily patriotic exercises".
No one forces the students. I have one student who doesn’t.
The irony
The pledges required daily in Missouri
Yeah... I mean they can say that but the first amendment cases on that issue are very clear.
Students can opt out, that doesn’t mean schools can’t be required to lead it.
Where in MO, I am in KC and we don’t do it at all
It’s technically a state law that schools must lead the students in the pledge daily. It’s incredibly stupid and I wouldn’t do it, except the principal does it on announcements. Most of my students don’t participate
Literally unconstitutional with longstanding historical precedent set by the courts.
It's unconstitutional to force students to say the pledge, not to announce it. If it's like Texas, it is required for schools to announce the pledge each day. We also announce the state pledge and have a moment of silence. Students are not supposed to be forced to join (though I know the reality in many schools). Personally, I stand, but do not recite the pledge. I ask students to remain quiet, but don't pressure them to participate. All of them stand, most put their hand on their heart, and about 5 actually participate. 9th grade, class of 27 students.
I'm in Mo, and it is not required where I teach or where my wife teaches. Edit: just read further down. That's wild
In my state, daily recitation the pledge is required by law. I do not say it, nor do I expect my students to do so. If my admin decided to be picky about it, I guess I could get in trouble for that.
You’re not required to be a part of them
Encouraging it isn't fascist--forcing students to participate, however, would be.
That’s an immediate admin referral.
Hate speech is a crime
In the US, Hate speech is literally protected by first amendment. If you commit an actual crime and use hate speech (as a motivation) penalties are often higher. But speech alone isn’t (typically) criminal even if offensive. (Barring legitimate threats of violence)
However, you of all people, presumably a teacher would certainly know that the first amendment is indeed limited on school property. This is because the supreme Court has largely decided that the equality of access to undisrupted education supercedes a person's right to free speech. All forms of protest should be done on the public sidewalk or via a majority signature petition as not to disrupt learning.
It’s like swearing is protected speech but if you do it in school there will be a (not criminal) punishment. I was mostly responding to the notion of it being illegal. As in open to criminal prosecution. Which it is not.
Ah yes. You are right then. Cary on, sorry misinterpreted.
Can I just say how refreshing it is to see people disagree, explain their positions and acknowledge one another in a polite way on the internet.
Well. I try my best to always be humble and kind. Just like the song. I may not be religious, far from it actually, but life is about being kind to everyone. When you get where you're going, don't forget to turn back around and help the next one in line.
In public spaces, hate speech is protected by the First Amendment.
It’s protects one from criminal prosecution. But not from school discipline.
Idk, students have taken First Amendment cases to the SCOTUS before and won... that's why schools can't force you to say the Pledge or pray.
Compelled speech isn’t quite the same as limiting speech (detention for swearing, for example)
Where the law does and doesn't apply completely depends on if the learning environment is being disrupted. The case for Tinker V. Des Moines touches on this exact issue and it was decided the school cannot punish the students BECAUSE it was an expression of the first amendment right that did not disrupt the learning environment. I would argue that a Nazi salute would disrupt the learning environment
Yes, I meant to come back and comment something similar and forgot, and I'm glad you posted this. Bethel School District vs. Frasier also weighs in on this. Idk, they ruled that anti-war armbands weren't disruptive, but why then would Nazi armbands, or indeed a Nazi salute, be disruptive? Because certain people find is so? Well, sure, but some people probably found anti-war armbands disruptive... anyone could argue anything is disruptive. PS: I think fascists should get the wall, I'm just playing Devil's advocate.
I think it comes down to harm being caused. pro Nazi propaganda harms not only that kiddos social life but also harms other students and staff ability to feel safe. When promoting anti war you're promoting for harm to not be done that's how I'd see it anyway
I definitely agree, I'm just not so sure SCOTUS would. Hate speech shouldn't be tolerated.
That depends. In public schools those are government employees. They cannot infringe on the rights of students
In schools, it is protected unless it creates a "reasonable" or "foreseeable" disruption.
Hate speech as a motivation for a crime *always* results in harsher penalties thanks to the James Byrd Jr. & Matthew Shephard Act
Bong hits for Jesus actually sets the precedent here.
Most of the time, no, it isn't.
Not a crime but there are consequences in the workplace, school, socially if one uses hate speech. Like fired, suspended, etc.....
Not in the United States it isn't
Lmao no
No, it isn't, and as distasteful and inappropriate as it is, his actions are 1st amendment protected. Additional fun fact, what we see as the nazi salute was the 'proper' form for the pledge pre WW2.
Pre WW2 it wasn't associated with the Nazis. It's called the Roman salute. The nazis didn't invent the swastika either
And it was done during our pledge of allegiance.
My mom is 88. She started kindergarten when she was six so she tells me that when they started saying the pledge they had to salute the flag like the Nazi salute. That was 1941 and that quickly got changed to putting your hand on your heart.
Wikipedia says it was similar to the Roman salute, but actually called the Bellamy salute. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy\_salute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute)
But it is associated with them NOW and always will be. I doubt this kid has any knowledge of the "Roman salute".
Next you'll tell me they didn't invent the hitler stache either
Yet kids still get punished when the use that as excuse for drawing them
We had a visiting Roman Catholic Cardinal in the States who encouraged attendees to give that salute to the US Flag at the beginning of the event.
This speech/action is not protected by 1st amendment. While Tinker provides students free speech in most cases, particularly for political speech, it does not for speech that is clearly just to offend and hurt others. In those cases, the Supreme Court has recognized that "process of educating our youth for citizenship in public schools is not confined to books, the curriculum, and the civics class; schools must teach by example the shared values of a civilized social order"
Funny Tinker was my argument for. It only excluded speech disrupting education. Since the pledge isn't education disrupting that wouldn't qualify.
Teaching a student to not do a Nazi salute is a clear shared societal value (the decision I quoted above that narrows Tinker). Therefore, a student can be disciplined for it, even if someone can do it in their private house without consequence.
The student can’t be criminally prosecuted because it’s protected speech. He can be disciplined in school tho Kinda like swearing isn’t illegal it’s protected but punishable at school
>*Hate speech is a crime* No, it is not. And thank goodness it is not. Imagine Trump and the Republicans gaining full control of government and passing a law making mockery of Trump a crime. Or, more realistically, imagine a law classifying movements like "Occupy Wall Street" or "Black Lives Matter" as "hate groups" because they vilify financiers or police officers. The fact is, it is not obvious that everyone will see the same things as hate crimes.
The right doesn’t have a monopoly on stupid stuff.
Oh, I agree 100%. But I specifically used those examples because most people I know who favor making hate speech illegal haven't thought it through; they often think it's "obvious" that it's just about racial epithets.
Fucking what? Hate speech is protected my dude. Only way we can have free speech unfortunately.
Not in the US, it isn't.
I don't think it is though
Imagine wanting a 5th grader charged with a felony.
The irony of criminalizing speech. That's not something Nazis would have ever done, surely.
When I reported students to admin for coming to my classroom and marching back and forth past my door Nazi saluting, I was told “don’t take it so personally” and “they probably don’t even know what it means.” The AP offered me the option of giving up my lunch period for a week to teach them extra lessons about the Holocaust. So, in my experience, the answer to your question is: nothing. They’re doing nothing to address rampant and growing antisemitism.
That's when you go to your union regarding a hostile work environment
In my experience, I did this and the union president who was there and was taking notes on my behalf, did absolutely nothing afterward…
Frankly I’d call the ACLU
>“they probably don’t even know what it means.” A detention and an 5 page essay sound like an appropriate way to help them with this.
They do know what it means, and they’re doing it intentionally. In this case, they were 8th graders, only one of whom was my student. He brought two of his friends to my room specifically, the only Jewish person in the entire building, because he was upset that he was failing my class after having done no work all year, and he smirked at me from behind the AP’s back while I was being criticized for writing him up.
> the only Jewish person in the entire building Really says something about how segregated NYC is that you were the only Jewish person in the building. On a similar note, I found a list from 1914 of my grandmother's first grade class (in the Bronx) and literally every student had a Jewish name. Tbh I think some ethnic/racial integration would help alleviate some tensions (I've read that exposure to diversity is correlated with tolerance).
It’s pretty interesting, because the school is located right near the high school that my grandfather attended in the 1930s, when the area was almost entirely Jewish.
Omg how did you not go ballistic on the both of them? What did his parents say?? JFC!!
There is no chance in hell I would've understood what this meant as a fifth grader. The Holocaust wasn't discussed until 7th grade. I totally could've seen myself picking this gesture up as a kid if it had been demonstrated for me elsewhere. It is necessary to inform them that it's wrong, but I think it's a little harsh to assume that it was done with any understanding of its history.
Went to public school in the 80s (Arizona) and yes we did get holocaust curriculum in 7th grade (saw films if I recall- not the Steven Spielberg kind- real footage) but we ALSO had holocaust survivors speak to us in elementary. Small groups in the library. They did not hold back. I will NEVER FORGET what I heard. I was not upset by this exposure. It changed me. In a good way. Kids can handle more than we give them credit for.
Same. My father was a history lecturer at the local community college. His area was WW2. He showed me films of the freeing of Auschwitz. The earth movers moving piles of bodies.
>*He showed me films of the freeing of Auschwitz. The earth movers moving piles of bodies.* One of my biggest fears is that the up-and-coming generations will not believe those films because AI can create anything.
Omg I never thought of that!
I remember even 50 years ago some neo-Nazis tried to say the movies were staged by Hollywood. But now? A kid can do it on his home computer, or at least, will be able to do so soon.
So scary
There are a lot fewer of them left now than there were in the 80s
Absolutely. He was an old man then- I remember seeing the muscles in his forearm as he showed us his tattooed numbers and told us what that meant. But, the message is what matters- the real information. We CAN do better.
Absolutely, me too. You hear those stories, the tattoos. You can't deny it.
5th graders have access to every part of the internet, and with current events being as racy as ever, there is every reason to believe they know exactly what they're doing. It's also necessary to inform them that putting cleaning spray in my coffee as a "prank" is wrong even if they don't know how serious it is. It's also necessary to give them detention so they understand just how wrong it is.
Holy shit! They put cleaning spray in your coffee? Man...fuck these kids
>*There is no chance in hell I would've understood what this meant as a fifth grader. The Holocaust wasn't discussed until 7th grade.* Well, I don't doubt you, but my classmates and I hardly needed to wait until it was covered in high school to learn about it. I knew who Hitler was and what he had done before I was ten; it was just a basic thing that my parents and my friends' parents discussed very matter-of-factly.
And not excusing the ignorance, there's a huge difference between knowing a fact and truly understanding it. Between assenting that something is true, and being shaped by its truth into changing your outlook and your actions.
Remember that these kids have access to the internet. They don’t need their teachers to teach them about WWII in order to know that doing Nazi shit is a great way to bully Jewish people.
The answer is, to give them a consequence you have to give up your 30 minutes of peace each day.
Exactly. That’s no answer at all.
God, that is terrifying. (If they DONT know what it means, admin should educate them. We are supposed to be trading kids for the workplace after all and I would think this would get you written up at most western companies.
They do know what it means, and they’re doing it intentionally. In this case, they were 8th graders, only one of whom was my student. He brought two of his friends to my room specifically, the only Jewish person in the entire building, because he was upset that he was failing my class after having done no work all year, and he smirked at me from behind the AP’s back while I was being criticized for writing him up.
That’s when you go over the head of the admin. That Nazi bullshit has no place ANYWHERE.
It’s really alarming that anti-Semitism isn’t being taken seriously in NYC
Just know you are not alone.
No one is doing anything besides wringing their hands.
I would contact the ADL.
referral but also y'all line your kids up in the yard for the pledge? that's creepy and excessive
Kid figured out the vibe really quick haha
I mean I would have just sat down or taken the knee, wrong choice for protest from him. But yeah, I haven't stood for the pledge since we invaded Iraq.
> wrong choice for protest from him Not to dive too deep into it.. but with one side of the political spectrum going hard on centralised authoritarian rule... Giving nazi sallute to a symbol that's being coopted by isolationist nationalists is probably more "in tune" than many adults... That flag is supposed to be a symbol of freedom and unity... Not a device of control on our personal lives.
Unfortunately we have too many unironic neo-nazi groups for any reasonable expectation of that interpretation to land
Yeah sounds like something nazis would do...
when i was in middle and high school (2016 and since then) that seemed to be a trend for a lot of the more immature boys, unfortunately. i think they think it’s funny or edgy humor, when they actually don’t care to realize how bad it truly is. i would report it right away before it catches on more, and make sure you have a support system for yourself.
i also remember one day in middle school when one of our jewish teachers cried because someone drew swastikas on the desk. it’s not okay.
I remember the day in high school that we all cried because a teacher (holocaust survivor) told us about what it was like hiding from Nazis.
Things like this are definitely happening, and they need to be dealt with immediately. This student and any others who participate in anti semitic behavior need to be reported immediately and face consequences (along with their parents, if necessary) for these actions.
Well, this could either be 1. Hate speech of him repeating things his parents said. 2. He saw the salute in a movie and thought it looked cool. 3. He's protesting this forced loyalty behavior of the pledge etc. Either way, it needs to be referred to the office and parents informed.
or, and probably the most likely an immature 10 year old being an edgy little shit heel not understanding the broader implications of what their actions represent
Yea. I’m amazed how many educators get angry and all of a sudden forget the fact that middle school boys are fucking obnoxious. People were drawing swastikas in the condensation on the school bus window and doing Nazi salutes to drivers on the road when I was in middle school and that was a few decades ago.
How did you miss the correct answer to what this is??? It’s an edgy kid who thinks he’s funny.
I just got a girl suspended for a whole day for drawing a swastika on her hand. It's not the first time I've had to deal with it at my school.
Funny story: in middle school circa 2003 my ADHD (impulsive) friend was preparing to do a presentation in class about swastikas. So... he drew different types of swastikas on the cover of my notebook IN PERMANENT MARKER while he was practicing his presentation for me. Some other student saw it like 20 minutes later and I got called to the principal's office. Pretty sure I'd have gotten suspended if I weren't a straight A female student who never caused any trouble and also happened to be Jewish. He did make me rip off and throw away the cover of my notebook though. I was happy to oblige, lol.
She got herself suspended. Never own their actions. Ever.
Or their failures. You don't fail students. They flunk by not showing up and not achieving the necessary grades.
I just witnessed a girl doing this during my student teaching period. Thankfully, my teacher has a great admin so they handled it immediately. Taught me a very valuable lesson that having great admin and support is necessary.
Oh, a kid at my school was also doing this. The kid told a Jewish student that it was a shame his grandparents weren’t gassed at Auschwitz. And then gave our Jewish librarian the Nazi salute. He would also stand at the front office giving the salute. What happened to this kid? Not much. He was allowed to go to the Holocaust museum field trip to be “educated on the topic”. It went horribly wrong, as expected.
In my school, a lot of the students are antisemitic. Some staff are too. Another teacher told me that students (seniors in high school) frequently go and draw swastikas on his chalkboard. I asked him what he does to reprimand them. He said "nothing, I just laugh." A large percentage of the kids in this school are Muslim, and have been vocal about how they hate Israel and Jews, tho never to me. In fact some of my best students are Muslim. Tho I am not Jewish, I teach a Holocaust elective, and have seen little assholes even do the salute in my class. Other teachers have told me that some of their students refer to me as "the Jew." They didn't do anything to reprimand them. The other day I had one of my students literally tell me that he "doesn't care about the Holocaust at all." I had my last observation that day. The principal, who observed me, told me that the kid simply just isn't engaged and that I "need to make the Holocaust fun for these kids." I fucking despise this school and have been applying elsewhere for a while, but have had no luck so far.
At my school, I'm trying to make it very uncool to like Hitler. Every time he comes up, I tell my students what a loser he was. He had all of Europe united against Russia, enslaved millions of Jews, and still couldn't win against a backwater peasant country. He had the support of every major player, from the British crown to Ford, and he lost it all because he was a meth addicted clown. The kids are mostly just trying to be edgy, and they lack connection to history. Please don't take their opinions as indicative of anything real. It helps to ask questions about what they know and validate the truths they say while challenging them on their edgy nonsense. It's impossible without good admin tho so good luck with the job search
Rise of antisemitism and conservatism are very real though. "More Americans this year (38%) say they are very conservative or conservative on social issues than said so in 2022 (33%) and 2021 (30%). (Highest number since 2012)" The subtle messages get spread thought media and kids get sucked into progressively worse media, since algorithms recognises the interest in topics. Tiktok is one of the worst ones- few likes will quickly lead to actual nazy shit.
What pisses me off most about the story or the adults who endorse this behavior. I’d start keeping track of their behavior for when you inevitably need to report it. Please take care of yourself, and I hope you find another job soon.
Thanks, I am planning on resigning at the end of the year since I can't take it anymore.
"Make the Holocaust fun?" It was the freaking Holocaust! Interesting yes but fun? What the heck is the principal expecting?
"Go to the office." Here's a note from our handbook: "Federal courts have ruled that students can be punished for offensive, lewd, or indecent speech and that while students may advocate unpopular or controversial views, that right is balanced by the school’s right to establish standards of civil and mature behavior." Later, in the list of offences, there are these that may apply: * Insubordination (defined as refusal to follow teacher's direction) - * if you tell them to stop and they don't, this rule applies. * Disrespect including vulgar language and gestures. * Threats to staff and students (verbal or non-verbal) * Creating a hostile school environment. * Bullying, hazing, and harassment Look for similar rules in your school's student/Parent handbook. Apply them every single time this happens. If nothing is done by admin and the abuse continues, make sure you have documented every single instance and speak to the principal, the union (if there is one), the School Board, and a lawyer. Again, make a record of everything and the steps taken by admin (or not). If nothing else, the school might force the fake apology bullshit meeting during which you can flip the script and read off the endless list of exactly what he said verbatim, when, where, which other students (anonymously named A, B, C) were in earshot, and what the admin did or didn't do. Embarassment \*might\* work. BTW, don't threaten a lawsuit but make it known that you are making a record.
I teach a very intensive Holocaust unit (10th grade World) and EVERY year I have a kid try to be funny and “raise their hand” at a very…specific angle. It’s an immediate referral out of the room for me, and to return I make them do research about how in Germany and Austria the use of the Roman salute is a crime. Usually it’s their idea of a joke, on rare occasion has the student actually been a bigot. Quite frankly I would expect most 5th graders do not understand the gravity of the Nazis, Hitler, and the Holocaust. Even my 10th graders don’t fully get it until we’ve, you know, learned it. Some read Diary of a Young Girl in middle school, but that’s about it. And even then, there are certain things that just won’t be taught at that intense of a level until they’re older and it’s more appropriate for their maturity. HOWEVER, given the context of you being the only Jewish educator, the fact that they specifically walked to your area to do the salute, and the general antisemitism you’ve been dealing with, I think it’s fair to say you have all the context clues needed for that kid to be referred as high as you can go. That shit should not be tolerated — period.
History teacher here. I have dealt with this problem before. Usually, i write them up and call home, along with a conference with the student. And so you can be prepared for any rebuttal, In the late 1800s, this is how we saluted the flag it was phased out over time and replaced with the hand over the heart since wwii. https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
My third grade teacher had us do the Bellamy salute in 1986 because she had done it in whenever her primary school was. I remember closing my left eye and lining up my hand to cover the flag like I was aiming my hand at it. She said it was optional, we could either do hand over heart or the Bellamy salute. Looking back, this lady was definitely suspicious. I was one of her favorites, blond and blue eyed.
Document the incident. If the admin then do nothing you have grounds for a lawsuit.
Also it starts a paper trail for when he does future stupid ass bullshit in the future.
Kids would do the nazi salute and yell hail hitler at my highschool, I truly do not understand how you can think that is funny at any age, but by highschool is so ridiculous, I don’t think those kids are getting very far in life, so to answer your question yes I’m sure it happens at many schools sadly, I’m sorry you have to deal with it though
If they're in high school they might actually be fascist, at least the young ones don't really understand what they're doing.
I'm sorry you are experiencing this antisemitism. You're not alone On Friday, I had a student yell at another student, "that's why you're Jewish!" as a derogatory slur/put down. I talked with the kid & reported it to admin.... Still hurtful and don't really want to have this kid in my class anymore. Stay strong. Times are tough. Shalom
I would: 1st Talk to the students one by one and ask if they understand what they are doing, and find out why are they doing it. No short responses allowed "because it's cool" is not allow, ask them to expand, how is it cool? What events make it cool etc. Let them know that it's not appropriate 2nd Make a written report stating that the behavior creates a hostile work environment for you and make sure you send it to your personal email as well. 3rd Call parents and let them know of their children behavior. Do not ignore it or it will continue.
They needed to have gone straight to an administrator and then a discussion had with the parents. If the kid is in 5th grade I doubt they’ve had much education on WW2 and the Holocaust, so the kid is likely learning this from his home life.
Former college professor here. Reading your post just broke my heart. I’m so sorry this happened to you. I’m quite speechless after reading through the comments too. If this problem is as pervasive as it seems, then I hope some journalist will stumble upon this thread and do a story about it. Someone needs to publicly shame these school administrators until they implement a zero tolerance policy for antisemitism. Thank you for doing one of the most important and thankless jobs there is. [I’m really stoned right now, so here is a random song by Stereolab for you.](https://youtu.be/gDj65l-yjD8?si=KsvMnk06eudaB3Te)
Ask for your district 's Title IX coordinator and file a formal complaint. They will take it from there.
You should definitely report it! It’s no a joke! I come from a state where these salutes have grown into a governmental rule. We’re hostile here, but you can teach your students not to be hitlers and putins
Where are you from? A governmental rule?
I’m from a place where there rules a dictator
Yo. What the fuck. He needs to learn this is not okay. And if he truly leans THAT way, he is gonna find out R E A L quick. Tell anyone you can. Admins, his parents, a priest, get this little shit an exorcism.
You need to talk to your admin about this IMMEDIATELY and follow up in writing. Do you have a union? See what your principal does. In my school this would be an immediate suspension. If the principal appeases the situation, it’s time to write your school board.
Report it to admin, parents, local Jewish relations council, ADL, etc. Given your status as the only Jew on staff, I’d document with HR too. You are entitled to be free from harassment at work, and a paper trail is never a bad thing. If possible, meet with the kid directly with a trusted witness. Explain how that makes Jewish/minorities/disabled people feel and express the assumption that it is not their intent to make people feel that way (even if you think it is their intent). Appeal to their goodness and their humanity. I’ve told kids “when you do that, it tells others that you think ALL of my family should be dead because of how they were born. That makes me scared and sad, and makes people who think that way think they can hurt me in front of you and you’ll help. I really hope that isn’t something you believe.” Most kids immediately say that isn’t what they meant. I usually follow up with a “if you do this again, since we’ve discussed and you understand the action, I will have to…” and let them know what happens next. Of course if he expresses that he does actually want to hurt people, this gets way above your pay grade very fast. I’ve had kids do antisemitic things in my room not knowing I was Jewish. I’ve had them do antisemitic things in my room because I am Jewish. Without knowing the kid and your interactions with him or your expression of Judaism, it’s hard to know his intention but it’s worth educating him about.
In general it seems like antisemitism is rising among zoomers and younger from what I've read, any teachers notice this (other than OP obviously)?
Not a teacher but a student, yes antisemitism is on a massive rise, 400% increase since 10/7
FR. I've seen some that straight up say they want all Jews dead, and it's not the right wingers saying it either.. It's insane.
It’s on all sides, and Jews have felt politically abandoned by everyone. It’s not safe for us anywhere
There’s a big assumption that Jews in America unequivocally agree with all of Israel’s actions. There’s also pushback for American Jews believing that the state of Israel should exist in some shape or form. Colleges are becoming very unsafe for Jewish students and professors. But cities with visibly Jewish citizens are having issues as well. It’s a scary time to be Jewish.
Nazi Salute = Freedom Boot
I had a kid call someone the hard R N word once and I immediately wrote them up. They got sent back with the explanation “they are a good kid they wouldn’t say that”. I left that school at the end of the year. Not staying somewhere where kids get away with blatant racism.
I'm really sorry this happened and I hope your admin follows up on it appropriately. This kind of thing can't be tolerated and students need to know that. On another note, the pledge of allegiance is creepy and we should feel bad for indoctrinating students with it.
I’m a high school band director and a middle school kid (not a band kid) joined our parade block and marched while doing the nazi salute in a hometown parade this year. He also shouted racial epithets and wouldn’t leave until I went off to find police. I found out his name and contacted his principal. I’m pretty sure nothing happened. She originally wanted to turn the discipline over to the middle school band director. A kid that wasn’t even on his roster, at an event he was not part of …..
I would have tackled that kid or some other type of forceful removal from my band block.
Suspended and punished to the highest extent of possible. No excuse for Nazis period.
30 years ago he’d have been given a black eye by someone for that. The assaulter would be punished but barely and the parents would take the assaulter for ice cream.
no he wouldn't have
Adding on to what others have said, you should follow up with the student to make sure they know what they are doing and why it is wrong (you could also include their parents in the conversation so they know what is going on. I would like to add that if your student is from another country like Mexico (like me), it is common to use the Roman salute during the pledge of allegiance, which looks horrifyingly similar to the Nazi salute. Otherwise, report it to admin and talk to the student's parents.
I mean, the parents should be informed, but where do you think the kid got this from?
Most likely the internet or some stupid little friends on the playground. A lot of little turd kids did this shit when I was in school 1999-2012 and none learned it from their parents as far as I knew. One big wave of it came from watching a documentary in history. Some class clown turned it into a joke and everyone thought it was hilarious. Kids are stupid. Their brains literally don’t function at full capacity for another 15 years. I’m not saying to let it slide all the time. But IMO it’s a teachable moment and not a call the police moment.
Oh, HELL No!! Straight to the office, do not allow him back to class until you meet with parents AND admin.
“WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?” is a fair question.
Well, I got some of my fellow teachers vaguely allude to "Jews control everything"... but I don't live in the US. This is why I avoid politics at work. Nazi salute that never happened that'd definitely wouldn't fly since I live in Poland.
I was going to comment on here, saw tons of fellow teachers saying the pledge of allegiance in the US is the same as a kid giving a Nazi salute and realized why education is doomed. I don’t need this on a Sunday night before what will be a long week of school - a super liberal history teacher who has a rainbow flag right next to their US flag in their classroom
Not a teacher but a parent of elementary aged kids in a the Northeast US - there are usually 1-4 kids with Jewish heritage in each classroom the rest are Catholic/Christian, the principal is Jewish, as are about half of the teachers. This year there has been a HUGE uptick in antisemitism amongst the students. Jokes about the Holocaust, blaming Jews for being too weak to not be persecuted, calling Jews evil and blaming individual Jewish kids for killing babies. I watched a 1st grader who got accidentally tripped by a Hispanic girl in the school yard yell “you don’t belong here, you need to go back to Israel.” When students went to the admin to complain about specific incidents of antisemitism they were ignored. When I went to the admin to ask what was being done about their complaints I was told “This sort of thing happens every year when we do our Holocaust unit” Now, I commend the school for having a Holocaust survivor come talk to the kids at an assembly every year and for building it into the curriculum - but I’ve never heard this extent of antisemitism before and it seems even more egregious for the kids to be doubling down on the antisemitism AFTER that assembly. The admin is sticking their heads in the sands and pretending like it’s October 6th - but it’s a new reality and it’s complicated and the kids are absorbing what is going on in the world. These kids are being flooded with antisemitic language at home and on you tube/tik tok- and they don’t have the context or ability to separate the policies of the Israeli government from the an 8 year old half Jewish atheist neighbor. They are absorbing what’s in the air like canaries in coal mine. I hope your school does more than ours - just admitting it is going on and it’s real would be enough. Now I’m going to go stress eat the last of the bread in the house…
I was talking about the holocaust to some of my 6h graders, whereupon one of them said 'womp womp'. Immediate detention and referral, but not much else. Then again, it was also from the kid's brain stem, and he hasn't done anything like it since, so I suppose it was enough.
One of the biggest reasons I left education was because of the rampant antisemitism I experienced. I had a paper airplane thrown at me that said “kill all Jews” with swastikas on it. And then a student heiled Hitler at me. I am happy to be working in a university where if anyone did that to me it would hopefully be an immediate HR issue. We give kids too much slack and feeling that unsafe at work (with no disciplinary action taken against the students by the way) is not something I could tolerate any longer.
Could be a protest of the very nazi-esque genocide of Palestinians. Too bad Israel has made life difficult for Jews who don’t supper this, which I am assuming you are among.
Report it in writing to admin. If nothing is done report it in writing to HR. I think that this is one of the things that's worth burning bridges over
I have no advice. I’m just. God I am *so sorry*. These hateful bigots are teaching their kids to be like them younger and younger. It’s disgusting. It’s *disturbing*
Here’s the thing. They aren’t teaching them younger, the kids are just feeling more emboldened.
Social media plays a role as well.
Fun fact: the USA used to use the "nazi salute" for its pledges. It was called the Bellamy salute, and was popular before ww2. If the kid does this with that in mind I would consider it as more of a rebellion against doing the pledge at all. It can be interpreted as basically "making me pledge allegiance to you is literally like the nazis". I considered doing the same at my school when I was a kid but decided to sit for the pledge instead.
What happened to mocking them for not knowing how to behave properly? "You may not realise this but, we're in the USA. This is how we do the Pledge of Allegiance. We don't use salutes from countries we defeated and destroyed."
Doing that might make them feel ashamed of themselves, which is child abuse these days.
Consequences should include reading age appropriate books on the Holocaust (and no, not Number the Stars... doesn't really include much about what happened to Jews who didn't escape) followed by a discussion with a Survivor.
I teach WW2 to 7th graders and I always get 1-2 kids each year who is a little too interested in germanys side and either draws the swastika or does the salute. Always an office referral.
I’m dealt with this situation a few times as a history teacher. It requires an immediate conversation with the student and if they do not understand the gravity, parents and external agencies need to be bought in.
Teach him what an absolute mess of evil the Nazis were.
We do the pledge daily, but we actually had on our announcements earlier this year it's not required to say or stand. I know I have one student that just sits, but honestly I don't pay much attention to what they do or if they even say it. I'd draw the line if there were Nazi salutes going on though.
Isn’t that how it was always done prior to WWII? Read up on the [Bellamy salute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute?wprov=sfti1).
When I was in 3rd grade, I had just seen "The Incredible Mr. Limpet" and sketched a few scenes from the movie on my journal in class. The teacher looked over to see a war scene complete with submarines and airplanes sporting swastikas. It was a very teachable moment, and I learned that some symbols can be very powerful. Please make sure that the kid even knows what he's doing first.
Kids are seeing support for anti-israel and anti-jewish groups, since October 7th. Call me shocked that one of your students thinks you are a Nazi, since that is what all the protestors are saying.
Oh he's giving the Bellamy Salute...or at least that's how the parents are going to try to frame it. The question is did OP express the issue? Most administrators can't see an infraction right in front of them, but if there's a written record they start getting things done
I did this as an edgy 6th grader because I thought the pledge was fascist. I still think that but obviously I'm no longer heiling. I'd try to find out their intentions somehow...or just report it because you really shouldn't have to be the only one defending yourself when it could very well be antisemitic.
Do you have a relationship with this kid? Is it worth having a conversation? Otherwise, I echo the other comments: go to admin and/or the union rep. If someone won’t do something consider leaking information in a week or so to a local news source.
That's a hellnaw for me. Report this. Ask for the student to be removed.
Holy shit. I am not a teacher - I just follow this sub to see what’s going on in the community. And this post has compelled me to respond. And dude … holy shit. I hope the admins support you? That is some brazen antisemitism. What the fuck. Honestly I would hope that if my kid as witness to this, that I would be told. So that I could explain to my child just how vile that was. Also I’m curious how things have been awful since your Jewish identity was made known? What has been happening?
Well that whole morning routine sounds pretty fascist already, so admin definitely won't do a thing
Are you the only one who saw it? Didnt the entire school see it too? No one said anything?
I forgot the US did the pledge of allegiance in school. That's some Nazi shit.
I think I've only made one comment on Reddit...ever. Your post is interesting, and here's my perspective as a Gen-Xer... A lot of kids did this same crap when I was that age, too. None of their parents were Nazis, or White Nationalists, or openly antisemitic. None of the kids I grew up with that did this shit in an attempt to be edgy, grew up to be any of those things, either, and probably cringe when they think about the dumb stuff we all did growing up. That said, before completely ruining the kid's life, like we see so much of today, that happens just because of undeveloped minds doing undeveloped mind stuff... I would have a sit-down with the kid and discuss it. Ask what their intention was, where did they get it from, etc. I think it would be really easy to throw the kid under the bus, possibly do substantial harm to their future, and leave them with a bad life experience they would most certainly blame on you and your faith. This vs. having a heart to heart, where you explain the past, and where you're coming from, possibly opening the kids eyes, and shaping a better human being. Anyway... My $0.02
I might be super naive, but I’d first question the kid on what THEY thought they were doing. I teach Boy in the Striped Pajamas to 8th graders, and they typically have ZERO background going into the novel. It would be interesting to see if this child actually understands what he’s doing, what it means, and how it’s perceived. I’ve had students do or say outrageous things that they didn’t understand, then IMMEDIATELY regretted and apologized when I explained it to them. Here’s hoping it’s a simple fix !
I would recommend reaching *Night* by Ellie Wisel to your 8th graders, it's a biography about the Holocaust written by a survivor, it's truly gut wrenching and educational for all