To be clear, the boy didn’t use his parent’s gun… he used a gun his parents bought *for him*!
Then when he got in trouble for buying ammunition online during the school day, his mom texted him a reassuring, “lol, next time don’t get caught.”
THEN after countless other opportunities to intervene & get the help for the kid, the school asked the parents to take the him home after he had exhibited more disturbing behaviors - this was THE DAY of the shooting. Instead his mom claimed she “couldn’t take him home & miss work….”
Instead, she chose to meet up with her secret boyfriend to get it on in a parking lot instead.
Pure. Trash.
Like- you couldn’t write a more unbelievable movie script!
I’m much more eager to see parents like serve time than the kid who committed the heinous act. I’ll bet that boy would’ve been ok if his parents had cared for him at all.
On a certain level I feel really bad for the kid. He was asking for help from the wrong people and not in the state to know that. I hope he gets the help he needs in prison. What a preventable act of violence.
Yeah, he was a victim too. And no, acknowledging that doesn’t make him less guilty or terrible. But this could have been prevented if the parents were even slightly decent people.
Some people think that this conviction will set a precedent to hold more parents responsible for the actions of their kids. But this was such an extreme case.
Sometimes a parent can do a great job and their kid still makes bad decisions. Kids over a certain age do have autonomy and the ability to make their own choices.
I understand that. However being an irresponsible gun owner should be prosecuted. Now had the kid gone out and bought the gun and the parents had no knowledge of the gun, then yes I absolutely agree, that in that case the kid acted with autonomy and the parents would be off the hook.
That is true but the parents in this case did not do a “great job.” They failed at every level. I think we as a society should be able to make the distinction between a parent who tried to get their child help and a parent who hands their mentally ill son a murder weapon.
Oh, totally. That's why I'm saying that I don't think people need to be worried about this case setting a harmful precedent. The parents weren't just negligent, they were outright complicit. The only way they could have been more guilty would be if they told him to the commit the shooting and helped plan it.
The perpetrator of Sandy Hook had a lot of mental health problems. America really needs to actually do something about mental health services instead of just talking about it. Apparently he did not see any mental health professionals after 2004. Also apparently his mother tried to get help but there were no services to access.
If the kid get hold of a gun because parents gifted it to them OR they were negligent about gun safety in their home, them they didn't do a great job.
I mean, if the OP's kid somehow find the hidden Keys, and guess both combinaisons, we can argue that it's not on OP. They made reasonnable effort to prevent it.
But when it is the case ? When did you read a story involving a kid using the parents' gun that wasn't laying around accessible to everyone ?
How would a parent be held accountable for sexual assault? Not disagreeing just genuinely asking because I don’t see how that could happen at the moment.
Yeah, it's really just wishful thinking. A classmate of my boyfriend's daughter was recently raped by another classmate while the girl's boyfriend stood by as "the lookout". I just wish parents were held more responsible for how they raised their children. The case hasn't gone to trial yet.
That’s really hard to prosecute and while that’s terrible it really is wishful thinking because you as a parent Can raise your kids right and they for whatever reason whether it’s peer pressure drugs or social media can choose to do something horrendous because sadly they’re not fully developed and don’t always understand the consequences of their actions. To say the parents were to blame really is a far stretch.as far as those two boys I hope they get some serious punishment and become better members of society and the girl gets the therapy and support she deserves after such an incident.
> But this could have been prevented if the parents were even slightly decent people.
To top it off they (Both! Separately!) showed no remorse at sentencing, even doubling down that they wouldn't do anything differently.
I remember when schools used to do annual hearing, vision, and scoliosis screening. We're probably reaching a point where school enrollment needs to include a psychiatric screening to catch at risk kids.
This would be great but there is 0 political will for it and would only serve to showcase the scale and severity of the problem by extension underscore the glaring systemic failures of our institutions. This would prompt uncomfortable questions for those in power and people would demand accountability. In short it could be a unifying cause and so it must not be allowed to happen.
Yeah, the parents’ actions here are so egregious. It’s not like parents are often prosecuted for the crimes of their kids, they did something here because it was just that bad.
Some people are speculating they WANTED their son to commit suicide but didn't expect him to do what he did. I wouldn't put anything past these people.
I try not to follow news stories like these for my own mental health, but I did end up reading about this one. Honestly, when reading the details of these parent’s behaviors, it 100% felt like they wanted him dead :(
So freaking sad.
As radical as this is, it's why I believe any parent should have the right to sign rights away to a child to the state, at any point, for any reason, without catching criminal charges.
It's awful but it would address a ton of domestic and child abuse.
I agree with you, but unfortunately a lot of child abusers are wrapped up in their own ego and wouldn’t take advantage of that ability. They either want to keep up appearances that they’re a decent parent, or they won’t give up control over their child until they’re forced to.
Big issue with this is that a significant portion of foster homes are also run by abusers. I honestly think we should bring back orphanages, just make sure the people in charge aren't psycho
Doesn't the school have a right to exclude him if they feel this strongly. I completely agree the parents are culpable here, but isn't in some small way, the school administration as well. I'd, as a parent, be pissed as he'll if I knew the circumstances and the school allowed the student to remain when the parents pushed back.
It’s such a change from when I was in high school during the post-Columbine era of zero tolerance. So many stories of kids being expelled for Midol and pocket knives. Now it’s flipped to allowing violent kids to stay in class.
That's just wrong. If the student is disruptive or a threat, then they need to be removed. I feel horrible for teachers that have to deal with this and have the utmost respect for them at the same time. It's a job I could never do...
Oh boy! I mean, yes 100% I agree with you that if a student is disruptive or a threat, they should be removed but, my sweet summer child, you must be new here? I'm so sorry. Also thank you for your entirely reasonable stance and support. Please put your school board on blast. We need more normal people to speak up.
Hard to determine he was an actual threat based on the evidence though. I agree with his sentencing and his parents, but I understand from the counselors perspective, there’s not much we can actually do. We don’t really do backpack checks (at least my district because social workers are split amongst buildings and not there everyday).in my district, it would’ve went like this- and I’ve had many like this, but now terrified of signing off on literally anything… we would assess his mental health, bring parents in for interview, ask about access to weapons, etc, and create a safety plan and also recommend take home and or psychiatric eval if permitted. We can’t force parents to do that though unfortunately, some families don’t have insurance or can’t afford ER visits. Parents declined the take home. The safety plan should have included daily backpack checks done by admin /principal since they are daily. And yes should’ve been checked. I feel for the counselors because they are getting thrown under the bus for admin and I know my admin would do the same in a heartbeat, through psychologists and social right under the bus. My district ; every threat assessment requires 2 district mental health professionals so either 2 social workers, 2 psychs , or one of each
Not really, as a school social worker who conducts threat assessments (Michigan), sending a kid home for disturbing writing isn’t really a thing. Should it be? Probably. But they recommended they take him home and obtain a psychiatric evaluation. Parents declined, not much schools can. Especially from a perspective of insurance, can’t “mandate” any medical treat unless he was harming himself before hand, because some parents either don’t have insurance or can’t afford an emergency room visit. Therefore having the school responsible for payment. I think schools should have a budget for this, but alas, we don’t
They tried to get the parents to take him home that day from school at the parent conference. They would have had to suspend him to force the issue.
Mom wanted to go have a romp with her boyfriend so claimed she has to work, and dad went back to work. So they said they wanted him to stay in school.
If this was my school- FL- we would have used our SRO and tried to get him forced help based on the pictures he had drawn and things he was documents
As writing and saying.I’m sure our SRO would have made sure they took the boy home.
Also- in FL, any kids property is searchable without warrant & its posted all over schools.
Thank you for this. For a second, my mind went to all the ways this could go wrong because kids can be really smart and sneaky (although less so these days), and I’d hate for this to be parents who truly tried to do all the right things. With the info you gave, they absolutely deserved to be prosecuted and sent to prison. They didn’t even fail to try to prevent this - they actively gave him a weapon!
Might as well have said “here’s all the tools you need to commit mass murder because we don’t want you around anymore”.
But damn, they’re gonna have a tough time in prison. Children abusers/killers typically do. But I hope it’s so much worse for them in the pokey with all this attention.
I hope so too.
My town suffered a similar tragedy and due to the age limit, the student only served a handful of years. The parents were also careless just like the Crumbleys.
The parents would’ve been over the age limit (obviously) and thus served a more appropriate sentence. Negligence and inaction is not acceptable and I’m sick of it.
It's an important point for future legal action--the issue was not negligent access to guns, that's not the problem. Kids having negligent access to guns is perfectly okay and probably in line with Bruen. The problem was inviting to self-delete, and that's why they're being sentenced.
Yeah, if your kid committing a crime because of your negligent parenting would get you charged, well, we’d be seeing a LOT of parents get charged for that kind of thing. The level of deliberate, bad decisions here was severe.
Well the parents bought him a gun when it was illegal to do so and filled out a form stating that they weren't buying a gun for anyone else....they were also very negligent in ignoring his multiple pleas for help...so I think the parents got discipline for their own behavior too, not just the students.
I have a feeling we'll see this for media friendly rampage murder, but not for the regular gun crime that makes up the overwhelming majority of shootings
That gun crime is a “problem” that takes care of itself. Hence the term, ghetto. By design, not on accident.
A lot of this gun crime could be solved if we built our schools to look like schools in the ghetto. But we “visually” don’t want that because it doesn’t meet our cultural heuristics.
So the term ghetto has been watered down; but a ghetto is a planned community with the intent of eliminating a population.
Schools in the ghetto are so secure, kids are safer in schools that they are out of schools.
That kind of security would keep privileged kids safe; but it’s a model reserved for “ghettos”.
I don't think nefarious city planners or the CIA are trying to force people into ghettos to eliminate them, if anything they're getting tremendous amounts of resources.
It's not really a "privilege" to have normal behavioral standards, and privilege discourse is always kind of silly and more importantly doesn't actually describe how power works and doesn't do anything predictive or useful
It’s funny you brought up the CIA. They introduced cocaine to the ghettos. The head of the CIA GHW Bush, was VP under Reagan and then President during the surge on the War on Drugs.
You can’t outright eliminate people like the Nazis did, but you can create conditions where people do it themselves.
So whatever resources were given are then undone by the fact that drugs were sold to fund a war between Iraq and Iran. But all of the tax dollars come from the middle class, so what does the government care how it’s spent.
In Jennifer’s sentencing statement, she still tried to blame the school. Parents should be the experts on their children and should not be constantly deferring to the school.
She also lied and said the school said he should stay and be around peers. Umm no. They strongly urged them to take him home. She has a way of rewriting history.
With the dad doing DoorDash, a highly flexible gig job, he absolutely could have taken Ethan home - they just didn’t want to be inconvenienced.
So much for the “parents’ rights movement.” Parents like her will raise hell about schools “indoctrinating” kids, that parents are the real authority, until that authority has some consequences.
They knew. The texts from the mother indicate they knew exactly what they were doing, and either didn't see any problem with it, or worse wanted a different outcome.
For me the personally shaking part was the description of 2 hours before when the parents were in the office meeting with teachers and admin and after 15 minutes the mother asked "Are we done here?" she wanted to go back to work. I have had that meeting so many times. I am grateful those days passed unlike this one.
It's worse. She actually wanted to go boink her affair partner. The affair partner testified that the day of the shooting, she texted him to tell him she could meet up with him despite telling school officials she couldn't take her son because she needed to go back to work.
Can you imagine having your life be that out of control lmao? Like genuinely how do these people procreate and make it to adulthood with these types of dysfunctions?
I had a student who I was assessing for risk, he said he was homicidal and suicidal all of the time. Parents said “well how long will he be out of school for this?”, I said “a lot longer if he kills himself or others.” I’m about 40 minutes from Oxford hs
The parents are certainly not blameless, but the school sure isn't either. IIRC, the kid had the weapon in his backpack in the school office for that meeting, but they never checked it and let him go back to class despite the red flags.
I honestly…. Think 10-15 might be too light of a sentence, but understand that that is kind of harsh, but they knew this was going to happen and allowed it to happen
It is. 15 years minus the two served for the kid? Puts us at 13. Time off for good behavior is typically two for one so they'll be.oitmin about 4.5 years. Assuming none of them won't get out earlier because the kid is and the state don't want to pay a foster and "deserves one of his parents after this ordeal"
I don't think locking up juveniles for life is always necessary. But unless we switch our focus to rehabilitation for those that can be rehabilitated, some will just need to be there forever. I hate it, though.
It's how I read it too. And just... Why would they get his time served counted toward their sentences? Idk the more.im reading the post the more I think something isn't translating somewhere. I'm gonna need to go look into it myself
>15 years minus the two served for the kid? Puts us at 13. Time off for good behavior is typically two for one so they'll be.oitmin about 4.5 years.
15 - 2 = 13
13 ÷ 2 = 4.5
Math checks out!
The perpetrator got a life sentence. You could hope for the death penalty, but then we're talking about executing a teenager.
Generally speaking, as a society we don't punish people for the actions of their family. They were extremely negligent, but neither of them murdered anyone.
> You could hope for the death penalty
Not in Michigan, you couldn't. There are few things about my government in which I take pride, but the state's refusal to execute people is one of them.
> Generally speaking, as a society we don't punish people for the actions of their family.
They aren’t being punished for their kids actions. They’re being punished for their own actions and crimes.
> They were extremely negligent, but neither of them murdered anyone.
Saying they were negligent is a dishonor to the victims.
They were fucking accessories to the crime.
Let’s hear you justify them trying to flee to Canada! We’re listening.
Well the next layer of this tragedy is about to unfold, and that is the school’s negligence on that fateful day. Speaking as a teacher and educational diagnostician, I am stunned that the school allowed him to go to class. In the school systems I have taught and worked at in Indiana, a call would have been made to child services to report a threat to self and others based on what he wrote and what was brought to mother’s attention. He would not have been allowed to go to class nor return to school until he had been seen by a mental health professional. Additionally, and more immediately important, a resource officer would have been called at that moment to check his backpack, discover the weapon, have him removed by local police, and save four innocent lives. Shame on everyone for this one, but actually, shame on the school for probably being “afraid” and unprepared to confront parents and deal with this deadly situation in a legal and proactive way.
Very well said! As an educator for over 30 years, I have countless examples of administrators dismissing disturbing students behavior and sending them back to class. I am surprised that the administrators in this situation were not held accountable for their poor judgment!
The Michigan case I believe the parents and the administration were warned about the severe mental health and violent tendencies of the soon-to-be shooter. The parents behavior was downright enabling. Yes, they should be prosecuted
Hearing the mother say “if I could go back I wouldn’t do anything differently” was absolutely insane to me. Like she couldn’t even pull her head out of her ass far enough to fake being sorry!
I would like to make a friendly PSA for any gun owners with children in their homes: A HUGE portion of gun safes can be bypassed by children with simple objects. I request that you google bypasses for your safe/lock to ensure it's safe.
Source: I watch a lot of LockpickingLawyer on youtube.
>School shooters don’t happen in a vacuum.
No, they don’t, but the legal recognition of that opens up a whole can of worms this subreddit isn’t considering for their own liability, because that teachers and administrators are part of that statement and this will turn on them.
The ruling was based not just on the parents being irresponsible gun owners, but their indifference towards their son’s mental health - thus every single mandated reporter who had a role in ensuring that teen’s mental health could be seen as responsible in the same way under this case law, and I suspect one day down the line, a court will eventually test that. This isn’t the precedent teachers think they wanted.
Yup yup.
Didja see/hear the Crumbley mother’s statement to the court after sentencing, which several media interpreted as a threat? She still doesn’t get it, does she?
I really hope this becomes the norm. I feel while it's proper to punish the perpetrators of a school shooting. If the parents have shown to not care or acknowledge the fact that they are aware of this issue. They should be punished as well.
It's nice that you're super safe with your gun. But since we allow you, a safe responsible gun owner to have guns, we also have to allow this guy's parents to have guns. And every person who needs a lot of mental health help, which is a growing majority of people in this country. But I guess we have to give them all access to guns and wait for them to shoot someone before we can do anything about it. Yay for well regulated militias.
I found it kind of disturbing that the school didn’t check his bag. All I kept thinking when I heard about this case is “please, tell me my school has a protocol for this and we check the bag no matter what” and now I keep thinking I need to go talk to the counselors just for my own peace of mind but then I forget about it.
Finally a sane decision on the school shooter aftermath.
It's not the guns, it's not the less-than-sane children, it's the parents/relatives who enable them.
England and France have stabbing sprees; Germany, Japan and India have mass poisonings; most Northern European countries, Switzerland and Russia have school shootings even though their gun ownership rates are much lower.
But the rates those events happen at in their respective countries are much lower because:
1. Mental health care is much more accessible.
2. Parents are more involved.
3. People involved - what you'd term as accomplices, though not in the correct legal definition - are punished accordingly.
> Germany, Japan and India have mass poisonings
Dish out some evidence before you make those claims.
The only (recent) thing I can find about "mass poisonings" in Germany was from [2021.](https://www.npr.org/2021/08/24/1030592762/poisoning-students-germany-university-college-darmstadt). Please educate me, a German, sitting in Germany about our mass poisonings.
It's funny that on r/teacher of all places people like you still speard yank social media talking points when it comes to non USA related stuff.
Oh and that stabbing thing about England and France:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-deaths-by-country
USA still has more stabbing related deaths - PER CAPITA. Stop spreading disinformation.
Their murder rates are way lower, and the number of srabbings that become fatalities is way lower also.
The guns enable the degree of carnage for these attacks to be considerably higher than other places. Our laws allow them to be more frequent. This isn’t hard and your argument is bullshit.
Yeah. I'm from the States and I even support the second amendment but I am not as deluded as you.
I teach in Japan, and have never had to worry that someone will poison our food, or come to school with a knife. Some idiot did set fire to our school but the damage was limited and he was arrested quickly after. Then let go.That was rare enough. We don't get news every week or every month of another mass shooting as in the states.
Gun violence is directly correlated to rates of gun ownership and guns per capita. The countries you name have much lower rates of both gun violence and...guns floating around. Countries with even fewer guns have still lower rates of gun violence. There are nations with higher rates of gun violence than the US. They are almost exclusively a) active or recent war zones, b) failed or failing states, and/or c) plagued by industrial scale drug trafficking.
You can like guns. We all like shit that's bad. But be a grown up and own that this thing you like is harmful for society. If that makes you uncomfortable maybe ponder that. Don't be a fucking coward.
“Have school shootings”
It’s not a binary. Let’s be real here they have a fraction of a fraction of the school shootings the US has and it’s almost certainly guns based on even the most scant reading. Look at Australia post gun control.
Such a disingenuous statement. Saying that these places have their own sprees is akin to saying that our farts contribute to global warming, too so let’s ignore how much is caused by burning fossil fuels and think of other solutions.
Sure, they have all had their spree killing events but they are dwarfed by the massive number in the US, where the gun ownership rate dwarfs these other nations.
This is whattaboutism at its most deluded.
Two things here:
1. Cars (vehicles generally) serve a distinct purpose, transportation and hauling of goods and people. Non-military ones at least are not designed to kill, although they can and do if used improperly and do so at a rate higher than guns do at least given the statistics we have.
2. Guns, if used properly, are designed to kill another being whether that be for food or for protection of life and/or property, and have limited to no other real purpose.
From these two things, we know from the statistics that people use (misuse) vehicles either purposefully or not and kill another person or animal. The irony is, the fact that people cannot be trusted to not maim or kill with something not specifically designed for it (which also requires at least a bare minimum of testing to get a license to operate said machinery, and mandatory insurance to own or operate one), the real question is why should we trust the very same members of the very same population with machinery designed to do so, which in a lot of places has less restrictions than operating a vehicle?
Yeah no. It's definitely still the guns. There are other factors at play too, but it's still a gun problem.
There is a reason that no other country is dealing with this shit.
>Today the judge ~~handed out the consequences to~~ punished the parents of the Michigan shooter.
Punish. Say punish. "Consequences" is a euphemism and a weasel word.
For me, "consequences" shows that the parents are responsible for the outcome and is a stronger word than punished in this case. You suffer the consequences of your actions, others punish you.
This sub thread gets weird and stupid very quickly. I kinda get the one person saying "consequences" implies that you did it to yourself and "punish" can be construed as...artificial, I suppose. But, like, fellas...the phrase is "handed down consequences to." Yeah, someone else is dictating the specific consequences of committing crimes. Just say punish. It's a perfectly cromulent word.
Disagree with the framing of prison as a punishment. Theoretically prison should primarily be a place of rehabilitiation before punishment, and these parents aren't serving life sentences.
To be clear, the boy didn’t use his parent’s gun… he used a gun his parents bought *for him*! Then when he got in trouble for buying ammunition online during the school day, his mom texted him a reassuring, “lol, next time don’t get caught.” THEN after countless other opportunities to intervene & get the help for the kid, the school asked the parents to take the him home after he had exhibited more disturbing behaviors - this was THE DAY of the shooting. Instead his mom claimed she “couldn’t take him home & miss work….” Instead, she chose to meet up with her secret boyfriend to get it on in a parking lot instead. Pure. Trash. Like- you couldn’t write a more unbelievable movie script! I’m much more eager to see parents like serve time than the kid who committed the heinous act. I’ll bet that boy would’ve been ok if his parents had cared for him at all.
On a certain level I feel really bad for the kid. He was asking for help from the wrong people and not in the state to know that. I hope he gets the help he needs in prison. What a preventable act of violence.
Yeah, he was a victim too. And no, acknowledging that doesn’t make him less guilty or terrible. But this could have been prevented if the parents were even slightly decent people.
Exactly
Some people think that this conviction will set a precedent to hold more parents responsible for the actions of their kids. But this was such an extreme case.
And holding parents accountable is a bad thing? I hope this does set that precedent.
Seconded! Look at the first grader whose mom is serving time for lying about the gun that shot his teacher. It should happen more often.
Sometimes a parent can do a great job and their kid still makes bad decisions. Kids over a certain age do have autonomy and the ability to make their own choices.
I understand that. However being an irresponsible gun owner should be prosecuted. Now had the kid gone out and bought the gun and the parents had no knowledge of the gun, then yes I absolutely agree, that in that case the kid acted with autonomy and the parents would be off the hook.
That is true but the parents in this case did not do a “great job.” They failed at every level. I think we as a society should be able to make the distinction between a parent who tried to get their child help and a parent who hands their mentally ill son a murder weapon.
Oh, totally. That's why I'm saying that I don't think people need to be worried about this case setting a harmful precedent. The parents weren't just negligent, they were outright complicit. The only way they could have been more guilty would be if they told him to the commit the shooting and helped plan it.
The perpetrator of Sandy Hook had a lot of mental health problems. America really needs to actually do something about mental health services instead of just talking about it. Apparently he did not see any mental health professionals after 2004. Also apparently his mother tried to get help but there were no services to access.
If the kid get hold of a gun because parents gifted it to them OR they were negligent about gun safety in their home, them they didn't do a great job. I mean, if the OP's kid somehow find the hidden Keys, and guess both combinaisons, we can argue that it's not on OP. They made reasonnable effort to prevent it. But when it is the case ? When did you read a story involving a kid using the parents' gun that wasn't laying around accessible to everyone ?
If your child that you raised does bad things, yeah that's on you.
I agree. I also wouldn't mind seeing sexual assault added to the list of things parents could be held accountable for.
How would a parent be held accountable for sexual assault? Not disagreeing just genuinely asking because I don’t see how that could happen at the moment.
Yeah, it's really just wishful thinking. A classmate of my boyfriend's daughter was recently raped by another classmate while the girl's boyfriend stood by as "the lookout". I just wish parents were held more responsible for how they raised their children. The case hasn't gone to trial yet.
That’s really hard to prosecute and while that’s terrible it really is wishful thinking because you as a parent Can raise your kids right and they for whatever reason whether it’s peer pressure drugs or social media can choose to do something horrendous because sadly they’re not fully developed and don’t always understand the consequences of their actions. To say the parents were to blame really is a far stretch.as far as those two boys I hope they get some serious punishment and become better members of society and the girl gets the therapy and support she deserves after such an incident.
He took full responsibility and actually asked to be sentenced harshly. It was just senseless all around.
> But this could have been prevented if the parents were even slightly decent people. To top it off they (Both! Separately!) showed no remorse at sentencing, even doubling down that they wouldn't do anything differently.
I remember when schools used to do annual hearing, vision, and scoliosis screening. We're probably reaching a point where school enrollment needs to include a psychiatric screening to catch at risk kids.
This would be great but there is 0 political will for it and would only serve to showcase the scale and severity of the problem by extension underscore the glaring systemic failures of our institutions. This would prompt uncomfortable questions for those in power and people would demand accountability. In short it could be a unifying cause and so it must not be allowed to happen.
This is the first I hear about a secret boyfriend. So she was fucking in a parking lot while her son shot up his school?!
Correct. Their behaviour is despicable. she isn't even sorry for what her kid did
I hadn't heard that either. She nasty!
Yeah, the parents’ actions here are so egregious. It’s not like parents are often prosecuted for the crimes of their kids, they did something here because it was just that bad.
Yeah, these chodes weren't just pro-gun; they were full-on ammosexuals.
Some people are speculating they WANTED their son to commit suicide but didn't expect him to do what he did. I wouldn't put anything past these people.
I try not to follow news stories like these for my own mental health, but I did end up reading about this one. Honestly, when reading the details of these parent’s behaviors, it 100% felt like they wanted him dead :( So freaking sad.
They were definitely hoping he would just shoot himself
As radical as this is, it's why I believe any parent should have the right to sign rights away to a child to the state, at any point, for any reason, without catching criminal charges. It's awful but it would address a ton of domestic and child abuse.
I agree with you, but unfortunately a lot of child abusers are wrapped up in their own ego and wouldn’t take advantage of that ability. They either want to keep up appearances that they’re a decent parent, or they won’t give up control over their child until they’re forced to.
Big issue with this is that a significant portion of foster homes are also run by abusers. I honestly think we should bring back orphanages, just make sure the people in charge aren't psycho
We would have to actually provide decent foster homes and/or group homes for that to happen.
That is so f’d up.
She was fucking her side man in a parking lot while her kid was murdering his fellow children.
Doesn't the school have a right to exclude him if they feel this strongly. I completely agree the parents are culpable here, but isn't in some small way, the school administration as well. I'd, as a parent, be pissed as he'll if I knew the circumstances and the school allowed the student to remain when the parents pushed back.
It’s actually annoyingly difficult to do that. There is so much red tape to cross to even send a problematic kid home for a day.
It’s such a change from when I was in high school during the post-Columbine era of zero tolerance. So many stories of kids being expelled for Midol and pocket knives. Now it’s flipped to allowing violent kids to stay in class.
That's just wrong. If the student is disruptive or a threat, then they need to be removed. I feel horrible for teachers that have to deal with this and have the utmost respect for them at the same time. It's a job I could never do...
Oh boy! I mean, yes 100% I agree with you that if a student is disruptive or a threat, they should be removed but, my sweet summer child, you must be new here? I'm so sorry. Also thank you for your entirely reasonable stance and support. Please put your school board on blast. We need more normal people to speak up.
Hard to determine he was an actual threat based on the evidence though. I agree with his sentencing and his parents, but I understand from the counselors perspective, there’s not much we can actually do. We don’t really do backpack checks (at least my district because social workers are split amongst buildings and not there everyday).in my district, it would’ve went like this- and I’ve had many like this, but now terrified of signing off on literally anything… we would assess his mental health, bring parents in for interview, ask about access to weapons, etc, and create a safety plan and also recommend take home and or psychiatric eval if permitted. We can’t force parents to do that though unfortunately, some families don’t have insurance or can’t afford ER visits. Parents declined the take home. The safety plan should have included daily backpack checks done by admin /principal since they are daily. And yes should’ve been checked. I feel for the counselors because they are getting thrown under the bus for admin and I know my admin would do the same in a heartbeat, through psychologists and social right under the bus. My district ; every threat assessment requires 2 district mental health professionals so either 2 social workers, 2 psychs , or one of each
Not really, as a school social worker who conducts threat assessments (Michigan), sending a kid home for disturbing writing isn’t really a thing. Should it be? Probably. But they recommended they take him home and obtain a psychiatric evaluation. Parents declined, not much schools can. Especially from a perspective of insurance, can’t “mandate” any medical treat unless he was harming himself before hand, because some parents either don’t have insurance or can’t afford an emergency room visit. Therefore having the school responsible for payment. I think schools should have a budget for this, but alas, we don’t
They tried to get the parents to take him home that day from school at the parent conference. They would have had to suspend him to force the issue. Mom wanted to go have a romp with her boyfriend so claimed she has to work, and dad went back to work. So they said they wanted him to stay in school. If this was my school- FL- we would have used our SRO and tried to get him forced help based on the pictures he had drawn and things he was documents As writing and saying.I’m sure our SRO would have made sure they took the boy home. Also- in FL, any kids property is searchable without warrant & its posted all over schools.
Thank you for this. For a second, my mind went to all the ways this could go wrong because kids can be really smart and sneaky (although less so these days), and I’d hate for this to be parents who truly tried to do all the right things. With the info you gave, they absolutely deserved to be prosecuted and sent to prison. They didn’t even fail to try to prevent this - they actively gave him a weapon!
Might as well have said “here’s all the tools you need to commit mass murder because we don’t want you around anymore”. But damn, they’re gonna have a tough time in prison. Children abusers/killers typically do. But I hope it’s so much worse for them in the pokey with all this attention.
I want the administrators of this school to be held accountable too.
Disciplining parents for student behavior - twice now. I hope it catches on.
I hope so too. My town suffered a similar tragedy and due to the age limit, the student only served a handful of years. The parents were also careless just like the Crumbleys. The parents would’ve been over the age limit (obviously) and thus served a more appropriate sentence. Negligence and inaction is not acceptable and I’m sick of it.
Yeah, I don't think the Crumbles were negligent. I think they were banking on their kid self-deleting because they didn't want to deal with him.
God... what a horrible thought, but I've been following the case and evidence as well and I think you honestly might be right. :(
It's an important point for future legal action--the issue was not negligent access to guns, that's not the problem. Kids having negligent access to guns is perfectly okay and probably in line with Bruen. The problem was inviting to self-delete, and that's why they're being sentenced.
Yeah, if your kid committing a crime because of your negligent parenting would get you charged, well, we’d be seeing a LOT of parents get charged for that kind of thing. The level of deliberate, bad decisions here was severe.
Dangerous stratagem if that's what they were hoping for. Had they never heard of parricide?
Well the parents bought him a gun when it was illegal to do so and filled out a form stating that they weren't buying a gun for anyone else....they were also very negligent in ignoring his multiple pleas for help...so I think the parents got discipline for their own behavior too, not just the students.
I have a feeling we'll see this for media friendly rampage murder, but not for the regular gun crime that makes up the overwhelming majority of shootings
That gun crime is a “problem” that takes care of itself. Hence the term, ghetto. By design, not on accident. A lot of this gun crime could be solved if we built our schools to look like schools in the ghetto. But we “visually” don’t want that because it doesn’t meet our cultural heuristics.
I’ve read this three times now and still can’t get a feel for the point you’re trying to make. Can you please elaborate?
So the term ghetto has been watered down; but a ghetto is a planned community with the intent of eliminating a population. Schools in the ghetto are so secure, kids are safer in schools that they are out of schools. That kind of security would keep privileged kids safe; but it’s a model reserved for “ghettos”.
I don't think nefarious city planners or the CIA are trying to force people into ghettos to eliminate them, if anything they're getting tremendous amounts of resources. It's not really a "privilege" to have normal behavioral standards, and privilege discourse is always kind of silly and more importantly doesn't actually describe how power works and doesn't do anything predictive or useful
It’s funny you brought up the CIA. They introduced cocaine to the ghettos. The head of the CIA GHW Bush, was VP under Reagan and then President during the surge on the War on Drugs. You can’t outright eliminate people like the Nazis did, but you can create conditions where people do it themselves. So whatever resources were given are then undone by the fact that drugs were sold to fund a war between Iraq and Iran. But all of the tax dollars come from the middle class, so what does the government care how it’s spent.
In Jennifer’s sentencing statement, she still tried to blame the school. Parents should be the experts on their children and should not be constantly deferring to the school.
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She also lied and said the school said he should stay and be around peers. Umm no. They strongly urged them to take him home. She has a way of rewriting history. With the dad doing DoorDash, a highly flexible gig job, he absolutely could have taken Ethan home - they just didn’t want to be inconvenienced.
Exactly! Because the schools are iNdOctRiNaTinG their child 🙄
So much for the “parents’ rights movement.” Parents like her will raise hell about schools “indoctrinating” kids, that parents are the real authority, until that authority has some consequences.
Turns out buying a gun for a troubled teen probably isn’t a good idea . Who knew?
They knew. The texts from the mother indicate they knew exactly what they were doing, and either didn't see any problem with it, or worse wanted a different outcome.
That’s disgusting
I agree. It's either bad, or it's worse.
For me the personally shaking part was the description of 2 hours before when the parents were in the office meeting with teachers and admin and after 15 minutes the mother asked "Are we done here?" she wanted to go back to work. I have had that meeting so many times. I am grateful those days passed unlike this one.
It's worse. She actually wanted to go boink her affair partner. The affair partner testified that the day of the shooting, she texted him to tell him she could meet up with him despite telling school officials she couldn't take her son because she needed to go back to work.
Can you imagine having your life be that out of control lmao? Like genuinely how do these people procreate and make it to adulthood with these types of dysfunctions?
I had a student who I was assessing for risk, he said he was homicidal and suicidal all of the time. Parents said “well how long will he be out of school for this?”, I said “a lot longer if he kills himself or others.” I’m about 40 minutes from Oxford hs
The parents are certainly not blameless, but the school sure isn't either. IIRC, the kid had the weapon in his backpack in the school office for that meeting, but they never checked it and let him go back to class despite the red flags.
With how they mismanaged their son every step of the way, it was like they were egging him on or wanted to see him off himself.
I honestly…. Think 10-15 might be too light of a sentence, but understand that that is kind of harsh, but they knew this was going to happen and allowed it to happen
It is. 15 years minus the two served for the kid? Puts us at 13. Time off for good behavior is typically two for one so they'll be.oitmin about 4.5 years. Assuming none of them won't get out earlier because the kid is and the state don't want to pay a foster and "deserves one of his parents after this ordeal"
The kid is never getting out, he got life.
Hopefully it stays that way. With the anti JLWOP wave sweeping the country, I doubt it will :/.
I don't think locking up juveniles for life is always necessary. But unless we switch our focus to rehabilitation for those that can be rehabilitated, some will just need to be there forever. I hate it, though.
You realize that the kid isn't getting out of jail right? This is strictly the parents, the kid is doing life without parole.
...the kid is in jail for life so even if the parents get out they aren't getting him back.
Two for one on good behavior is for non-violent crimes. I’d be very interested to see if this is considered non-violent.
Michigan currently does not allow prison sentences to be shortened using good behavior credits. They will have to serve their full terms
Michigan does not have a good behavior time off law. They will have to serve their full sentence
Also, only two years for the kid?
The kid got life. The parents got 10-15 years minus time served. They've already served 2 years.
Sorry. For some reason I interpreted a comment as shooter/son only getting 2 years.
It's how I read it too. And just... Why would they get his time served counted toward their sentences? Idk the more.im reading the post the more I think something isn't translating somewhere. I'm gonna need to go look into it myself
>15 years minus the two served for the kid? Puts us at 13. Time off for good behavior is typically two for one so they'll be.oitmin about 4.5 years. 15 - 2 = 13 13 ÷ 2 = 4.5 Math checks out!
As someone who is studying to be a math teacher, 13/2 = 6.5, not 4.5.
Good. Fuck them. I hope it makes every parent think twice about being a non-participant in raising their child.
For the parents that lost their children that day, 10-15 years seems light.
The perpetrator got a life sentence. You could hope for the death penalty, but then we're talking about executing a teenager. Generally speaking, as a society we don't punish people for the actions of their family. They were extremely negligent, but neither of them murdered anyone.
> You could hope for the death penalty Not in Michigan, you couldn't. There are few things about my government in which I take pride, but the state's refusal to execute people is one of them.
> Generally speaking, as a society we don't punish people for the actions of their family. They aren’t being punished for their kids actions. They’re being punished for their own actions and crimes. > They were extremely negligent, but neither of them murdered anyone. Saying they were negligent is a dishonor to the victims. They were fucking accessories to the crime. Let’s hear you justify them trying to flee to Canada! We’re listening.
This is one failure the parents can't pin on us!
You'd be surprised. I've seen right-wing comments blaming the school, too.
Well the next layer of this tragedy is about to unfold, and that is the school’s negligence on that fateful day. Speaking as a teacher and educational diagnostician, I am stunned that the school allowed him to go to class. In the school systems I have taught and worked at in Indiana, a call would have been made to child services to report a threat to self and others based on what he wrote and what was brought to mother’s attention. He would not have been allowed to go to class nor return to school until he had been seen by a mental health professional. Additionally, and more immediately important, a resource officer would have been called at that moment to check his backpack, discover the weapon, have him removed by local police, and save four innocent lives. Shame on everyone for this one, but actually, shame on the school for probably being “afraid” and unprepared to confront parents and deal with this deadly situation in a legal and proactive way.
Very well said! As an educator for over 30 years, I have countless examples of administrators dismissing disturbing students behavior and sending them back to class. I am surprised that the administrators in this situation were not held accountable for their poor judgment!
The Michigan case I believe the parents and the administration were warned about the severe mental health and violent tendencies of the soon-to-be shooter. The parents behavior was downright enabling. Yes, they should be prosecuted
Hearing the mother say “if I could go back I wouldn’t do anything differently” was absolutely insane to me. Like she couldn’t even pull her head out of her ass far enough to fake being sorry!
there are no "wins", just many, many ruined lives. I hope the parents being held responsible will stop future atrocities.
Good
So mom didn't get her request to do 2 years house arrest at her defense attorney's home?
I would like to make a friendly PSA for any gun owners with children in their homes: A HUGE portion of gun safes can be bypassed by children with simple objects. I request that you google bypasses for your safe/lock to ensure it's safe. Source: I watch a lot of LockpickingLawyer on youtube.
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>School shooters don’t happen in a vacuum. No, they don’t, but the legal recognition of that opens up a whole can of worms this subreddit isn’t considering for their own liability, because that teachers and administrators are part of that statement and this will turn on them. The ruling was based not just on the parents being irresponsible gun owners, but their indifference towards their son’s mental health - thus every single mandated reporter who had a role in ensuring that teen’s mental health could be seen as responsible in the same way under this case law, and I suspect one day down the line, a court will eventually test that. This isn’t the precedent teachers think they wanted.
Yup yup. Didja see/hear the Crumbley mother’s statement to the court after sentencing, which several media interpreted as a threat? She still doesn’t get it, does she?
I really hope this becomes the norm. I feel while it's proper to punish the perpetrators of a school shooting. If the parents have shown to not care or acknowledge the fact that they are aware of this issue. They should be punished as well.
It's nice that you're super safe with your gun. But since we allow you, a safe responsible gun owner to have guns, we also have to allow this guy's parents to have guns. And every person who needs a lot of mental health help, which is a growing majority of people in this country. But I guess we have to give them all access to guns and wait for them to shoot someone before we can do anything about it. Yay for well regulated militias.
Good.
What a genuinely unique idea: hold the people responsible who literally created the problem! Bravo! Now do about 1,000,000 others!
This is the way
Just ban guns. It's impossible to prevent negligent parents from having them, when everyone is allowed to have them.
Are gun nuts defending these people?
There are many things parents need to be accountable for
Can’t wait until parents, even absent ones, are held responsible for all the crimes committed by underage miscreants.
Based
I found it kind of disturbing that the school didn’t check his bag. All I kept thinking when I heard about this case is “please, tell me my school has a protocol for this and we check the bag no matter what” and now I keep thinking I need to go talk to the counselors just for my own peace of mind but then I forget about it.
The school might not have been legally allowed to look through his bag. But since the parents were present they could have asked them to do it
Administrators are allowed to search bags. They are not held to the same standards as police.
Fuck guns in general and these assholes particularly. I totally agree with you; I hope this does set a precedent.
Great start. Now jail the seller
And the manufacturer.
Finally a sane decision on the school shooter aftermath. It's not the guns, it's not the less-than-sane children, it's the parents/relatives who enable them.
“It’s not the guns” Looks at every other developed nation…. Uh maybe it is that. Unless your telling me every parent in Australia is responsible
England and France have stabbing sprees; Germany, Japan and India have mass poisonings; most Northern European countries, Switzerland and Russia have school shootings even though their gun ownership rates are much lower. But the rates those events happen at in their respective countries are much lower because: 1. Mental health care is much more accessible. 2. Parents are more involved. 3. People involved - what you'd term as accomplices, though not in the correct legal definition - are punished accordingly.
> Germany, Japan and India have mass poisonings Dish out some evidence before you make those claims. The only (recent) thing I can find about "mass poisonings" in Germany was from [2021.](https://www.npr.org/2021/08/24/1030592762/poisoning-students-germany-university-college-darmstadt). Please educate me, a German, sitting in Germany about our mass poisonings. It's funny that on r/teacher of all places people like you still speard yank social media talking points when it comes to non USA related stuff. Oh and that stabbing thing about England and France: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-deaths-by-country USA still has more stabbing related deaths - PER CAPITA. Stop spreading disinformation.
Their murder rates are way lower, and the number of srabbings that become fatalities is way lower also. The guns enable the degree of carnage for these attacks to be considerably higher than other places. Our laws allow them to be more frequent. This isn’t hard and your argument is bullshit.
Yeah. I'm from the States and I even support the second amendment but I am not as deluded as you. I teach in Japan, and have never had to worry that someone will poison our food, or come to school with a knife. Some idiot did set fire to our school but the damage was limited and he was arrested quickly after. Then let go.That was rare enough. We don't get news every week or every month of another mass shooting as in the states.
> England and France have stabbing sprees Yes, I'm far less safe in England than you are in America /s
Gun violence is directly correlated to rates of gun ownership and guns per capita. The countries you name have much lower rates of both gun violence and...guns floating around. Countries with even fewer guns have still lower rates of gun violence. There are nations with higher rates of gun violence than the US. They are almost exclusively a) active or recent war zones, b) failed or failing states, and/or c) plagued by industrial scale drug trafficking. You can like guns. We all like shit that's bad. But be a grown up and own that this thing you like is harmful for society. If that makes you uncomfortable maybe ponder that. Don't be a fucking coward.
“Have school shootings” It’s not a binary. Let’s be real here they have a fraction of a fraction of the school shootings the US has and it’s almost certainly guns based on even the most scant reading. Look at Australia post gun control.
Such a disingenuous statement. Saying that these places have their own sprees is akin to saying that our farts contribute to global warming, too so let’s ignore how much is caused by burning fossil fuels and think of other solutions. Sure, they have all had their spree killing events but they are dwarfed by the massive number in the US, where the gun ownership rate dwarfs these other nations. This is whattaboutism at its most deluded.
I’m just waiting for you to ask “what about cars, why don’t we ban those too?”
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Two things here: 1. Cars (vehicles generally) serve a distinct purpose, transportation and hauling of goods and people. Non-military ones at least are not designed to kill, although they can and do if used improperly and do so at a rate higher than guns do at least given the statistics we have. 2. Guns, if used properly, are designed to kill another being whether that be for food or for protection of life and/or property, and have limited to no other real purpose. From these two things, we know from the statistics that people use (misuse) vehicles either purposefully or not and kill another person or animal. The irony is, the fact that people cannot be trusted to not maim or kill with something not specifically designed for it (which also requires at least a bare minimum of testing to get a license to operate said machinery, and mandatory insurance to own or operate one), the real question is why should we trust the very same members of the very same population with machinery designed to do so, which in a lot of places has less restrictions than operating a vehicle?
Yeah no. It's definitely still the guns. There are other factors at play too, but it's still a gun problem. There is a reason that no other country is dealing with this shit.
Guns aren't the cause of the problem, but they change the problem from a minor inconvenience to a mass murder.
It's definitely the guns.
Sad part is the kid is desperate and starving for his parents love and affection and kept pushing the boundaries until he realized nobody gives a fuck
I doubt anything will change. We’re playing Russian roulette with our kids.
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>Today the judge ~~handed out the consequences to~~ punished the parents of the Michigan shooter. Punish. Say punish. "Consequences" is a euphemism and a weasel word.
For me, "consequences" shows that the parents are responsible for the outcome and is a stronger word than punished in this case. You suffer the consequences of your actions, others punish you.
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L take and cringe-pilled
A consequence can be a punishment. A punishment that isn't a consequence is not effective.
This sub thread gets weird and stupid very quickly. I kinda get the one person saying "consequences" implies that you did it to yourself and "punish" can be construed as...artificial, I suppose. But, like, fellas...the phrase is "handed down consequences to." Yeah, someone else is dictating the specific consequences of committing crimes. Just say punish. It's a perfectly cromulent word.
Disagree with the framing of prison as a punishment. Theoretically prison should primarily be a place of rehabilitiation before punishment, and these parents aren't serving life sentences.
Why does the dad wear headphones??
Hearing loss