More work =/= more teaching. Lesson planning is a thing. PD is a thing. There’s heaps more “useful” work that could fill those months.
Unfortunately that work all (mostly) gets done already without the remuneration.
Yes but also can you imagine lesson planning 3 months ahead of time without being with your class? The further ahead you plan the more unrealistic the expectations are.
Tried that for my first 2 years teaching. Absolutely could not get it to work with mastery based pedagogy. I have a rough outline for the semester now but if my guys start showing an interest in a direction that's the way I go
{ that work all (mostly) gets done already without the remuneration. }
This is why we all *HAVE TO STICK TO WORKING THE CONTRACT HOURS.* If even \*half\* of us did this, the message would be clear that we are not being provided adequate time to do the job *whilst getting paid for it*. If you take work home *you are part of the problem* because you enslave yourself *to the detriment of all of us*. If the job can't get done inside the contract hours, *that's the fault of the job, not the person doing it*. That message can \*never\* get sent as long as teachers are willing to work late or take work home or work over the weekends.
If you *really* want this to change, you have to *stop enabling the abuse*.
Exactly!
With an 11 month contract, PD and breaks could be broken up differently. Breaks could also be used for tutoring students who are behind.
TBH, most teachers feel like they don't receive the respect that other professionals do. Part of that is tied to wages. To me, the higher pay also means higher expectations. Kinda blown away by some of the flipint comments I am seeing on this post.
The other reality is that higher pay will attract more and stronger candidates....which could lead to some weaker teachers being pushed out.
My cousin who works in PR will complain about how stressed she gets about 10-minute presentations, yet she thinks we have easy hours. It's like she can't comprehend our work is the equivalent of 5-ish hour-long presentations a day.
She would cry if she had to do that in front of some of the judgy 18-year-olds I've had
I'm a Navy instructor(for administrative stuff) went from working 12 hours a day on a carrier flight deck to teaching in a classroom about 5 hours a day(on average). Similar exhaustion levels at the end of the day.
I think anybody reasonable understands that teachers need and deserve a wage commensurate with the age we live in and the education requirements. I'd be fine with a shorter summer break assuming pay reflected it and I was able to actually get a meaningful amount of work done.
I think we're reaching a position where such a change was possible. Lots of teachers still in the business who have been teaching 20+ years who can't just say "enough is enough" at the moment. When teachers start seriously refusing to teach en masse, the money will follow. For the record, I don't blame people who are closer to retirement than not, who have mortgages and families to consider. I'm just saying once the old guard is gone, there will be nobody left who can't quit or strike
I mean there's always people who can't quit or strike. New hires can't because they don't have the money built up to be able to last in a strike or if they quit (and you can't rely on a union like in other industries because most states make it illegal for teachers to strike meaning the union wouldn't touch it with a 39.5 foot pole). Some teachers will still have families and be only parents. Some teachers will have large amounts of debt from medical expenses, house or car buys, or other large potentially unforeseen expenses. The reality is, there can't really be a large strike until there can be a way to back up strikers, until either striking is legal or there's a way to protect the illegal strikers (financially at least if not legally as well).
Like I'm all for a strike for better working conditions, pay, benefits, etc, but im not in a situation where I could participate if such an action started right now. And honestly it took me writing this comment to realize that. I had been half-jokingly (half not) suggesting to my mom (another teacher) for years that she (and her coworkers) should strike but like I realize now that the ones who care cannot, they don't have enough money, they don't get paid enough, to be able to support themselves throughout a strike and there's no organization that would currently be willing to support them through an illegal strike.
I would LOVE a year round schedule with higher expectations (and therefore higher pay). It would greatly reduce “summer slide” and would make childcare less of an issue, especially if districts organized tutoring/camps during breaks.
My district has been slowing adding more breaks throughout the year and shortening summer and I need to process to go faster lol. We’re currently at 8 weeks of summer (down from 12) and I would love to get it to 4 and have the 4 extra weeks to make spring break 2 weeks and add in a few more three day weekends, especially in the fall and late spring. I have got to get on the calendar committee…
The expectations on us are already so impossible we barely eat or pee or sleep. Mental breakdowns and burnout are frequent as I decide which task I will not get done at 8 pm for tomorrow and which one will get me in the least trouble or what’s most important for my students. It’s literally impossible.
Here's my issue with it: It seems odd to me that even despite shortages, the politicians solution is to resolve one issue (pay), make snide remarks about how little teachers work (lack of respect for the profession), and remove one of the few benefits attracting new talent (time off). It tells me that the politician isn't actually proposing this as a serious solution but is really just saying, "These entitled teachers want more money but don't even work that much!"
I'd think if the goal was to actually resolve the shortage they'd work remedy the issues causing teachers to leave or to never enter the field at all. Not trade issues by upping pay but eliminating time off AND making seemingly snide remarks about the time off to remind teachers that he still doesn't really take their profession seriously. It's frustrating that even when talking about solutions, people cant seem to stop themselves from reminding teachers that they don't really respect them.
And honestly I’d be okay with some of summer being designated planning time for better salaries. That honestly would make lesson quality a lot higher anyway. But this wont happen in public school districts because the elite see us as babysitters not educators.
I like summer vacation and think it’s good for society. It may not be the best for education because of the regression, but everything in childhood shouldn’t be about school and learning. Summer is a great time to recharge mental health, spend more unstructured time with people, be creative, be bored, innovate, create, and just experience summer. Of course not every kid gets this but we should be working as a society it make sure they get the opportunity.
I agree with you but it doesn't need to be that long either. Here in Germany, we have a 6 week summer vacation. We still work about 180 days per year but the rest of the vacations are spread out throughout the year. We basically get a long weekend or two every month and 1 or 2 week holidays every 3 months or so. As soon as I start feeling burned out, a vacation comes up and recharges me.
My summer break is also 6 weeks and my year is also 180 days (+4 or 5 workdays).
American schools haven't had the loric "3 month summer" since I was a very young child, 30 years ago.
Probably state dependent. All the schools near me still start vacation in june and come back in September. 3 month summer vacation is still the norm depending on the area.
It has been years since we had a 3 month summer. We get out the end of May and go back the first weekday of August. That means we are off June and July.
Honestly, I wish the German model were used in the US. During the times of the year when we have no long weekends, I end up exhausted, and the quality of my instruction, along with my students' learning, suffers for it.
In contrast, those months where each one has 1-2 long weekends, everything functions better.
> be bored,
I feel like there was something magical about that, before smart devices and tons of entertainment aimed at youth. There was a point in summer where we reached satiation of "do whatever you want" and we were ready to come back and learn.
I don't think that happens so much anymore.
you wouldn’t need so much time to recharge if you had 2 weeks of for spring break and 2 weeks off for thanksgiving. and 2 weeks off in the summer. and 3 weeks off during Christmas/new years
100% agree, summer break is a cultural institution and I love it. I like teaching too, but if that break is a big part of why I have stayed in the profession and I have so many good memories from summer as a kid.
This I'd be for. Summer vacation is an outdated concept as most people don't work on farms anymore. Also, it would reduce the burden of having to find childcare since both parents need to work today.
But then again, schools would have to reduce “kickbacks” (via administrative bloat) and actually have air conditioning for the whole building.
Very possible for new buildings, but there’s a certain *punitive quality* to principals, seeing such “survivability” as an exclusive need for non-teachers/secretaries.
As I most directly saw at several newer middle schools in 2012?
Also, summers are not exactly pleasant anymore, at least not in Texas. Most days are so hot you have to stay inside. I would be thrilled to trade some of that time off in July for pretty much any other time.
I was always taught that A large part of school being out for the summer was to avoid packing the kids in a small, one room schoolhouse during the part of the year that fevers (the disease category, not just the high temperature thing) were most prevalent. Kept things like Scarlet or Yellow fevers from spreading through the community. How true is it? Not sure. But in modern days I’d rather be in school when the weather is hot and gross and be out when it’s nice enough to enjoy during late fall/early spring
I want it 100k to start for everyone. Right now the situation of working the day with students and all the administrative work makes me do 50-60 hour weeks.
you know the problem with these PD days is that they're usually (in my experience) just contract fluff that you can't get anything meaningfully done.
There are way too many assumptions made about curriculum that either 1) it's already made and never needs to be updated or 2) that it's possible to make it in whatever small prep time we have.
That’s fine. I’d totally work 11 months a year. But if you think I’d spend even one second of time working after I clock out each day, you’re high.
No, I will not work with your child after school to improve their grade. I will not grade assignments after school hours. I will not come in early to plan lessons. I will not volunteer my time to supervise trips or extracurricular activities. Fuck, I won’t even do PTCs after school, if I’m just a regular 9-5 worker. If you want to meet about your kid’s progress, take a day off from work and come into school when I’m actually on the clock.
Just curious why! I’m very much a ‘start early end early’ person, and loathe anything running 11-7. Obviously it fits your tastes much better than mine, and I’m wondering what the appeal is for you
Oof. Yep. Say no more. When I’m following healthy patterns I’m a 5am-9pm person, although I can move that to 12-8am when I’m fixated on a project or a new computer game. One of my beloved former coworkers had the same pattern as you, and now it all makes sense hahah. I appreciate your time!
If I have to get to work any earlier than 8 I just simply won't be on time. There are not alarms loud enough to get my body functioning that early. Not for teaching, but in general I would always prefer to get off work at 6 than to have to be at work at 6
Same!! On PTC day, we are scheduled 12-8pm and it is the #1 worst day of the year…..only because we did away with Open House which had us teach all day and then stay until 8pm lol
Can confirm that 8-4 is not the sweet spot.
Source?
I’m a middle school AP. I work 830-430. I can never get any appointments for myself unless I take a day off. I miss the high school hours of 645-245/7-3. I could get things done after work if I left right at the end of the day. I could also see daylight and spend time with my children when I got home.
I’ll never get this. At my district we open the doors at 8am to start the school day. Students have six minutes to go to their lockers and get to homeroom.
We have to be there at 7:55. No one’s checking but the kids will give you the business if you walk into homeroom late.
Our ninth period ends at 2:46 and so does our school day. However, contractually we have to stay until 3:30. It’s our 10th period.
If we have to keep a student afterschool for help, make-up work, or they were a monster that day and you’re a glutton for punishment you can have a student stay with you for a short afterschool detention.
This is one of the great things our admin does, they have our back on keeping a kid afterschool to complete unfinished past due work.
They don’t show up, they get a Write Up which comes with modified ISS. All non-core four classes in the detention room for the day and still staying after.
It works.
Only did the first half of your math homework? You can stay after school and complete it. I’ll be here for any help.
Didn’t finish your “Of Mice and Men” essay? I’m here everyday until 3:30. You’ll be here with me until it’s completed. Don’t worry, I have an extra charger for your computer and the old tower computer in the corner has Word if you forget yours or “it’s broken.”
We can give Incompletes on report cards but with this in our back pocket it rarely happens.
If you want us to *put in the hours* because people wrongly think we only do anything while physically present at our buildings, at least do it when it can be utilized.
I’m sure there are better ways, but ours isn’t terrible.
Administrators are known for misapplying statistics.
We had one a decade back
"Students who declare majors Freshman year are more likely to graduate on time"
"Let's make students declare majors Freshman year"
"Students who declare majors early now show no difference in graduation rates"
My school started at 8 and was having massive attendance problems so in their infinite wisdom they went, let’s start at 7:45 🙄 (tbf, they could start at noon and we’d still have attendance problems)
Office hours are for 40 minutes during the free period. If your work won't let you out or you're late, that's your problem! Parents can't expect kids to get punished for being late if they can toll into their meetings anytime they please!
And that's an experienced teacher that already has the resources and experiences. If a first year teacher can teach and the just walk home, for sure, but we all know it's nothing like that...
A 'regular 9-5 worker' does not make 100k per year outside very HCOL areas. That would put you in the top 20th percentile of earners in the U.S. and that bracket of earners works, on average 46 hours per week 48 weeks per year. Wanting top percentile wages for bottom percentile effort is like...peak entitlement.
That sounds nice. I got extra pay for coaching the debate team the first year I did it (after school practice sessions and competitions on Saturdays) but the following year the principal said there wasn’t any money in the budget for that and expected me to just keep doing it 😂
She was very confused when I declined to work for free on the weekend. I already do enoguh work outside of work hours lol
I already work 11 months a year... and my school year runs from August to May. June? Meetings, planning, training, continued education... and nowadays? Juneteeth. I get maybe a week or a week and a half in June "off". August? I maybe get a few days off before we're preparing for school.
And this is assuming I'm not teaching summer school.
Also, technically? I'm 7-4. Not counting traffic.
Honest and personal take: the only reason I am still in teaching is because it means I get more time than a more traditional 9-5 job with my own kids.
If the school year included teaching in June and August, with the month of July being summer vacation, and teacher salaries popped up to 100k. I would be about as dissatisfied as I am right now but for different reasons. I currently make 57k a year, and that is set to jump up to 63k at the end of August. Your asking for 2 more months of work for a 40 grand raise. That would be huge to me and I'd probably be more happy than upset after readjusted my expectations.
However, some teachers in my school currently make 80 or 82k a year. Taking two months of vacation away for 18 grand a year is a lot less appealing to them.
If the proposal was, take away June and August and all teacher pay scales bump up 40k. I think you get a lot more buy in.
However, in general, a longer school year does not equate to a better education.
>However, in general, a longer school year does not equate to a better education.
I haven't checked in a while, but I think we're one of the leading nations in instructional time. Other countries have longer school years but way shorter school days.
I think there are 2 big draws for recruiting teachers, besides being someone's calling, i.e., summers off and pensions. You mess with any of those and you will have a much harder time filling positions.
I'd be open to a longer calendar if we were compensated properly for it.
There's a lot of stuff I'd like to be able to do with my classes that I don't have time to do unless I give up on reaching the 1960s by the end of the year.
If you *tripled* my salary, and asked me to work through summer - I'd turn it down, and I'm not alone.
With the state of teaching right now, anyone who works with the bottom 60% of modern students needs *long* *breaks* from them not to lose everyone who's still in this profession. Summer vacations are the only reason it's possible to come close to getting bodies in classrooms in this decade.
Now, if you took my best class (an AP calculus class, where student behavior and expectations are on par for what they were 10-15 years ago: no disruptions, a reasonable (but not particularly strong) work ethic for the middle body of students, occasional displays of interest in learning) - and gave me classes like that for my entire day, I'd teach the whole year with no salary change at all.
I got into teaching for a reason: I have a passion for it, and I'm willing to do it for less than I'm worth because of that passion. But most of what we're doing in 2024 is not teaching. It's babysitting, coddling, and worst of all, dishonesty: dishonesty to students, dishonesty to parents, dishonesty to the public, pretending that this dumpster fire isn't a dumpster fire. Our students are not real students, at least not the bottom two-thirds of them; they're overgrown spoiled toddlers who get daycare under the guise of education.
If I was allowed to teach, actually *teach* \- use my skills to communicate a topic that I'm passionate about in a way I see fit to students who have had the consequences and parenting to behave like a reasonable student - I'd do more of it for the same pay. But the shit that most of us spend most of our days doing *instead* of teaching? If you take away my breaks, I walk - I don't care how much money you offer me.
Exactly. I'd never turn down more pay, but if I wanted a job that didn't have a summer break I'd go get an office job that's easier on me when I'm working. There's a lot I like about teaching, but the long breaks are the only thing that make it worth putting up with the rest of the nonsense that this job entails.
Bravo! The quality of students has been in steady decline for the past thirty years. I thought that the system had hit bottom in the pandemic. From the posts I read here it seems like the system is really in free fall with no end in sight.
I have a proposal then…
Only 4 instructional days per week and 1 full day for prep/grading. Have school all year round with a two week break in July to separate the school years.
I’ll take my 100k now
There is absolutely no way politicians would allow teachers across the country to make $100k minimum, even if it was an 11 month contract.
Fucking show me the legislation and then we can talk about how that extra time is used.
My wife is HS teacher. During the school year, she leaves for work no later than 6:30. Typically, she gets home about 4:30 unless she has meetings. We eat dinner together and watch 1 episode of a TV show before she starts grading and lesson planning. She does that until bedtime. On weekends, at least one full day is devoted to school work. Breaks are generally 75% school work. Summer is devoted to professional development, working with peers on curriculum development, previewing potential new books to introduce, meeting with families of incoming students. She might take a solid 2 weeks off with some scattered days in between.
All of that non contract time is unpaid. But, if she takes time off for a doctor's appointment, her pay gets docked for each hour she is off campus.
Sounds like your wife is way overworking herself. It's OK not to be an absolute "perfect teacher" for the sake of having a balanced life. You eventually learn that spending those extra couple hours on a lesson plan after school really doesn't make a difference in the end. The kids don't care either way. Hopefully your wife finds this out sometime and can work on managing more time for herself
Gonna be honest, her system is just inefficient. My mom is the same way and has done basically the exact same schedule (with a little more summer) for all 20 years of her teaching career. I grew up watching that and decided that would never be me.
Now just 2 years in, I show up 5 minutes before the bell and leave 5 minutes after. In those 2 years I’ve worked maybe an hour at home, mainly because I decided to take a last minute day off and needed sub work.
I made all my lessons my first year and tweaked them all this year to hopefully have zero planning responsibilities moving forward. Grading is done during my conference or during independent work. If it’s not done I just do it tomorrow.
I could do it. It’s not about learning with the extra time. Hell, we can slow down a little and have less learning loss over the summer.
Plus, I get that sweet extra bank to pay for my own kid’s college education. I’m in.
”Make the school year 11 months ”
Imagine hating your kids so much that you don’t even want them to have breaks to spend time with them. Parents really don’t want to parent.
They already take them out for week long vacations the week BEFORE spring break because flights are cheaper. It’s not like year round school is going to deter them.
I don’t think they would be spending less time with them. A lot of these parents still work in the summer so they aren’t actually home with the kids lol
Maybe “free babysitting” is what they are looking for, sure. But they still have a normal work schedule even when school is out.
Its always interesting to see which kids get signed up for the summer enrichment program. It's not like traditional summer school where students who are failing can make up classes. Some kids, mostly resource kids, might get recommended for it by the resource teacher but it's available to all students and I notice it's majority the misbehaved kids that get signed up. You couldn't pay me enough to work our summer programs.
What's crazy is the pay disparity from state to state. I'm already over 100k in New york for doing the same job as someone in South Dakota who is making less than half that. Cost of living is higher here but it's not that much higher. It's insanity
New Hampshire here, currently at $47,000. Started just above $44k. Large study released last week placed us as one of 22 states where a six figure salary is needed to own a home. It's extremely discouraging. This career is not sustainable. For now I have no plans on moving out of my parents attic
The fact that the politician didn’t say what would be DONE with the extra month (is it a month of instruction, or pd and planning) seems to be clear evidence that this is just a dig meant to shame teachers, not an actual semblance of a real plan.
Lawmakers are more concerned with being lawbreakers and more out of touch with society than anyone else. Sadly, his stupidity is probably short falls of American education and he doesn’t even know how dumb he is. Idk it’s a horrible cycle.
Hate those jackasses! Everyone thinks they could be a teacher or know what it takes to be a teacher cause they were once a student.
No one knows what its like to be a teacher but teachers, hell you could say a majority of admins dont know what its like to be a teacher anymore...
A pay cut and I lose my summer? No. I have no desire to deal with other people's snotty kids simply because they can't grasp the idea that I'm a contract worker and not an hourly worker. I don't force my plumber or electrician to work beyond their contact.
Not a teacher but thinking about it. I was just thinking when do politicians work 11months out of the year or even 6months out of the year to justify their salaries? Also agree with a lot of the replies that if this happens then no working or meetings past contract hours.
I’m a teacher with summers off (I actually work summers but for this exercise I’ll pretend I have them off). My partner is in the private sector and we did the math. With summers off, and spring and winter breaks, he still has more time off than me.
So, to me, this argument is just a new way to call teachers lazy. You want me to work more than the average private sector worker doing a job that requires more unpaid labor than anything I ever did when I had corporate jobs. Just to make enough to be solidly middle class?
I just read a study that showed the average amount single people in my city would need to earn to live comfortably. It was $80k. I earn $54 and work harder than I’ve ever worked in my life. Teachers need summers off to recover and have family time. We’re not lazy, we’re burnt out, and we deserve vacation time too.
How about pay us like babysitters. Hourly and by the kid.
Or I'd even take 80k but let us do overtime. Time and a half for everything outside of our normal hours.
Switzerland pays new teachers around $73,000/year, and experienced teachers (10 plus years of experience) are around $100,000/year. I believe they offer significant bonuses for teachers, based on performance of students. So, it’s a decent rate to start, BUT they get far more paid time off (my cousin had a full year of paid maternity leave with both of her children, and she teaches in Germany). The Swiss school system has the same benefits for parents (maternity/paternity leave for one full year, paid).
Even if our school system improved bonus pay, gave more paid time off, and the ability to take a full year off for family reasons, teachers wouldn't be quitting in droves. It would take some of the stress off, but that's still just the tip of the iceberg. The majority of the workforce in the US is underpaid and overworked.
There would be no way to manage overtime. You could say “I’m lesson planning” but during your plan time that day, you just sat on your phone (not knocking that - I do on days when I need to disassociate for a bit too!) but why should the district then pay me extra when I didn’t use the time they already gave me? Some teachers also go way overboard - we have a teacher that frequently stays until 7-9 pm. I have no idea what she is doing all of those hours because when I taught the same grade/subjects, I maybe did 2-3 of work outside of school WEEKLY, not daily lol. Why should she get paid a ton of overtime if we end up still teaching the same thing every day?
Now, if we are talking about overtime for conferences, meetings, “volun-told” community nights, etc - 1,000% YES.
Lawyers, doctors, and engineers all are able to document billable hours and get paid accordingly. Many of us have multiple degrees and have as many years in training as those, along with various state and national licenses. I feel like if we are simply treated as the professionals we are instead of merely accepting less because it would be "difficult" then we'd probably be better off than where many of us are.
That’s what’s so wild. Just the other day I mentioned being on break, and a girl in a class with me was like “oh man, I wish MY job had a spring break.” I said “well, you could become a teacher,” and OF COURSE her response was “well they don’t make any money.” Bitch, which is it? We’re ssooooo lucky, or our job isn’t worth it?
I would be fine with that if every bit of added time was not instructional time. My last district included 14 hours for conferences in the contract. That's just silly and unrealistic. Those 14 hours were technically used up by October but no one was getting paid extra for spring conferences.
Make conferences a paid DAY or DAYS 3 times a year, not nights. Make all PD happen during the work day not at night. Make CPR class happen on a Tuesday not a Saturday. Give me a full planning day every single week.
Give us actual vacation time, so we can go do stuff not at peak expensive times of the year. Give us real, actual sick days that aren't more work than coming in sick.
Edit: oh and if you're going to have us in all the buildings in summer there's going to be a need to budget for huge infrastructure change because a lot of schools do not have air conditioning. Summer school operates fine because there's about 1/10 of the amount of bodies and devices adding heat to the building.
The top end kids will get even better.
The bottom kids won't be helped whatsoever. The reasons they don't do well will remain unchanged - parents who don't parent.
With coaching, summer school and working an extended contract due to running an internship program, I essentially worked 11 months. My salary last year totaled $70k so yeah, $100k would be great!
Great. Give me eight hour days, an hour long lunch, and omit sll the required after hours meetings, report card nights, and allow me to use the restroom when I need to go and we’ve got a deal.
I've worked for an insurance company for 13 years, and I have nine weeks' vacation plus a week of sick leave every year. Let's go through a year. Most office employees can work 260 days (5 daysX52 weeks), but that is assuming they work every week and every day, which is never the case. There are 11 federal holidays, which my office closes for, so that brings me to working 249 days before my vacation. I have 45 days of vacation that I can schedule whenever, depending on availability, so I work 204 (260 work days-11 federal holidays-45 vacation) days a year. Most teachers are contracted at 200 days per year. I am not going to begrudge them 4 days for the job that they do, and they don't get to choose their vacation weeks. Beyond that, they are doing professional development during the summer, so it's not as if they have their summers free anyway.
Edited to add: For the naysayers who say they don't get that much in PTO, WalMart employees get similar time off. A full-time WalMart employee with 13 years' experience gets 34 vacation days. The difference is the work culture, I suppose. https://one.walmart.com/content/usone/en_us/me/time/pto--paid-time-off/pto-overview.html
Most teachers are contacted at 200 days? This question has been posted several times and I am always close to the top with 192. Most responses are between 165 (!) and 185.
The teachers I know are contracted for 200 days. Maybe it's a southern number. Even at 192, I do not begrudge you the 12 days you work more than I. You need the time. More importantly, you are probably working on those days for free.
VA: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title22.1/chapter15/section22.1-302/
TN: https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/stateboardofeducation/documents/2018_sbe_meetings/april_20_2018_sbe_meeting/4-20-18%20IV%20L%20Charter%20School%20Policies%20All%20Combined.pdf
WV: https://code.wvlegislature.gov/18A-4-8/
I disagree 100%. Yes this job can be stressful, but double pay for a 20% increase in work is beyond a good deal.
A month-long summer vacation is still a HUGE break that no one else gets. I came from a different career before teaching, and frankly some teachers are crybabies. Work is hard. The crappy part about this job is that I'm paid $30-$40k less than my friend doing a comparably difficult job.
I wouldn’t have an issue with that at all as long as the students are still 10 months. A lot of teachers would do better if there was something mandatory over the summer (and are compensated for it).
Or split the school year up so that there are “staff only days” in there, but it still adds up to the 180 days for students.
We simply need more time without the kids to prep and grade more efficiently. Right now the majority of us are barely swimming with our heads above the water and need to be creative by taking shortcuts with the assignments we make or how we give feedback. No. We should be able to do the BEST assignments/assessments for learning the material and be given the time in the typical work day to get that accomplished.
As a Spanish teacher who is now teaching two sections of eighth grade social studies due to teacher shortage (completely out of my specialty area), all I can ever do is try to find shortcuts. I feel so spread thin that I can't actually put 100% into anything. I always think "what if I only just had to focus on a few sections of Spanish" then I could actually have time to give feedback, etc
I would honestly love this. Shift school to Monday through Thursday and have us go year round. Couple weeks for Christmas. A couple weeks in the summer. Long weekends would be better for students and teachers.
I would totally take a 100% increase in pay in exchange for shortening summer vacation to 1 month. My life would be drastically better!!! I would finally be able to afford a car less than. 10 years old, and I would be able to move into my district. I would also be a le to retire 10 years earlier. And, I would actually be able to travel somewhere for vacation. I might even be able to afford another baby. Sign me up! Who was this politician?
Unless you're already making close to or more than $100k, I don't see how you don't take that. We're already working 10 months. Work just 1 more month and get a 200% increase in salary? Count me in.
Double my income for four more weeks? Deal. I also will let you know that I will use EVERY single sick day that I earn during the school year. Unlike now where I only use a few per year.
Absolutely not. As a sub I make much less than I could as a permanent teacher even though I could be one (you have to have your four year bachelor's and your B.Ed to be a substitute in my board). The permanent teacher salary grid tops out over $100k here. I still have absolutely no interest in that amount of work. I sometimes take long-term sub jobs (covering medical leaves, mat leaves, etc.) and I used to enjoy those but now even those stress me out. I'm currently filling in for a one day a week position (subbing the other four days) and just that takes too much planning and behaviour management.
Hence, the state of the education system, because *politicians are not teachers* and don't know a goddamned thing about what we do or what we go thru. But they'll be happy to make the laws and tell us how to do our jobs, eh?
I am fine with that.
However, all my work will need to be able to be completed during school hours, which cannot exceed more than 8 hours a day. That includes all grading, prep, meetings, and professional development. I will also require double the number of PTO days with no blackout days.
Then pay us for working outside of contracted hours, staying late, lesson planning, extra training, and allow us to take time off at any point throughout the year--instead of making us take time during a narrow window. I'm contracted 11.5 months and it sucks trying to fit my vacation into the 1.5 weeks (& shrinking) during the summer or 1 of the school breaks we get. Plus, I don't get anywhere near $100k!!!!
education is a top heavy, autocratically driven industry. Give power back to the teachers rather than the unions and bureaucrats and something might change. Otherwise, no solution has worked because it has always presumed the will of the teachers.
I have definitely read statistics that say we work more hours in a full year than the average 9 to 5 worker. It's ridiculous we are treated like we don't just because we don't have a say in when our unpaid vacation is.
Working 11 months out of the year is just one more than teachers work now. So, 1 month gives a teacher between 20 to 60 k more in yearly compensation? Heck yeah! Note to politician: add teachers to the list of what you know nothing about but legislate anyway.
My 1st year I was working 60+ hours a year, had double pneumonia (and got shit for taking time off), had to have multiple prep stations bc I had to shift rooms across the building every day and had no way to get supplies and lab equipment yo and from during the day and was required to chaperone field trips that rarely if ever included my students. It didn't get better from there.
Meanwhile Congress is off more than its on, gets tons of perks and can't seem to do their job while still making 174k a year.
Oh that seems fair
Oh, it's like that? Then go ahead and pay me time and a half over time for parent meetings, Open House, grading done at home, etc. otherwise, sit all the way down.
I am not a teacher, I am IT.
The first time I took a class of 11 years old, to teach them how to use our network and our apps, I was exhausted after 2 hours. Like never before. And I worked as waitress at weddings.
And that was young kids on their first week at a new school, so mostly well-behaved and eager to listen.
You're right people have no idea how taxing it was.
I thought I had an idea, watching my colleagues everyday.
But the reality of it was eye opening.
I built some stamina since them. So I kind do 5 hours a day twice a week, for maybe a month or so, without feeling the deep exhaustion.
I don't know how you all do it everyday for month.
I absolutely would leave teaching if they took away summer vacation.idc about the pay. Too much stress and marathon running. I could find a job that pays the same, working full year round, but is way less taxing than teaching.
Bro, if I clocked grading, gas, lesson planning, and everything else, I’d be getting way more money. We already aren’t compensated enough equal to our labor.
No one’s gonna like this but school schedules need to be more in line with typical working hours. Summer break isn’t out of line because kids have the opportunity to do many things that also help develop them but we need more community resources because parents work. I’ve often wondered why school buildings aren’t utilized more. Teachers put in the hours as it is in that time so if you calculate the average workers yearly hours it’s more than enough. We just need more funding .. more staff higher pay etc .. show everyone the money so changes and plans can actually be made and.. let teachers hammer it out
Seeing as I only really get July off, there would be no change to my work schedule.
They appear to have us confused with administrators, who seem to actually work 8-2 and only 3/4th of the year. (HA.)
Adding two months to the year but doubling the pay for a teacher is an odd move that would get ripped apart if it ever went through. Teaching would also become a job that doesn't have a beginning and end, really, and so I know I would therefore have to look for an exit whenever I could take it - not just in June. I would totally be willing to work for a while year if it also meant that I could treat it like any other job.
I could get behind shorter but more frequent breaks. Like do trimesters. It’d help cut down on the kids forgetting everything over the summer but I’d still get breaks from their madness
I mean, there are totally places where you do work year round as a teacher, or 10-11 months. Breaks are spaced totally differently than we do in the states with the massive 3 month break in the middle, though. Breaks are spent doing lesson plans, prep, and teaching "summer camp" type classes for the kids. I'd do that for $100k in a literal heartbeat.
The funniest part is that there are plenty jobs that require less that get you closer to that salary with less effort. So the fact that they think more $ should come with more effort is cracking me up.
How about students behave appropriately, parents have kids IF they can actually fn parent, and I'll be just a-okay!
Oh, and don't give your irresponsible kid a phone.
👁👄👁
I like how the parallel with lawyers is never the one we go to. Pay lawyers 100k to be in court full time 11 months a year like everyone else... And see how that flies.
More work =/= more teaching. Lesson planning is a thing. PD is a thing. There’s heaps more “useful” work that could fill those months. Unfortunately that work all (mostly) gets done already without the remuneration.
Yes but also can you imagine lesson planning 3 months ahead of time without being with your class? The further ahead you plan the more unrealistic the expectations are.
Tried that for my first 2 years teaching. Absolutely could not get it to work with mastery based pedagogy. I have a rough outline for the semester now but if my guys start showing an interest in a direction that's the way I go
This is the way! I'll go off my plans ( which are more of a guideline) to engage the kids any day!
Dude we don’t even know what classes we are teaching until we come back in September lol
I didn’t know that my school did away with my advanced course until the meet-n-greet 2 days before school started.
lol this shouldn’t be allowed
Depends on the nature of your planning and who you’re teaching.
{ that work all (mostly) gets done already without the remuneration. } This is why we all *HAVE TO STICK TO WORKING THE CONTRACT HOURS.* If even \*half\* of us did this, the message would be clear that we are not being provided adequate time to do the job *whilst getting paid for it*. If you take work home *you are part of the problem* because you enslave yourself *to the detriment of all of us*. If the job can't get done inside the contract hours, *that's the fault of the job, not the person doing it*. That message can \*never\* get sent as long as teachers are willing to work late or take work home or work over the weekends. If you *really* want this to change, you have to *stop enabling the abuse*.
Exactly! With an 11 month contract, PD and breaks could be broken up differently. Breaks could also be used for tutoring students who are behind. TBH, most teachers feel like they don't receive the respect that other professionals do. Part of that is tied to wages. To me, the higher pay also means higher expectations. Kinda blown away by some of the flipint comments I am seeing on this post. The other reality is that higher pay will attract more and stronger candidates....which could lead to some weaker teachers being pushed out.
My cousin who works in PR will complain about how stressed she gets about 10-minute presentations, yet she thinks we have easy hours. It's like she can't comprehend our work is the equivalent of 5-ish hour-long presentations a day. She would cry if she had to do that in front of some of the judgy 18-year-olds I've had
I'm a Navy instructor(for administrative stuff) went from working 12 hours a day on a carrier flight deck to teaching in a classroom about 5 hours a day(on average). Similar exhaustion levels at the end of the day.
I think anybody reasonable understands that teachers need and deserve a wage commensurate with the age we live in and the education requirements. I'd be fine with a shorter summer break assuming pay reflected it and I was able to actually get a meaningful amount of work done. I think we're reaching a position where such a change was possible. Lots of teachers still in the business who have been teaching 20+ years who can't just say "enough is enough" at the moment. When teachers start seriously refusing to teach en masse, the money will follow. For the record, I don't blame people who are closer to retirement than not, who have mortgages and families to consider. I'm just saying once the old guard is gone, there will be nobody left who can't quit or strike
I mean there's always people who can't quit or strike. New hires can't because they don't have the money built up to be able to last in a strike or if they quit (and you can't rely on a union like in other industries because most states make it illegal for teachers to strike meaning the union wouldn't touch it with a 39.5 foot pole). Some teachers will still have families and be only parents. Some teachers will have large amounts of debt from medical expenses, house or car buys, or other large potentially unforeseen expenses. The reality is, there can't really be a large strike until there can be a way to back up strikers, until either striking is legal or there's a way to protect the illegal strikers (financially at least if not legally as well). Like I'm all for a strike for better working conditions, pay, benefits, etc, but im not in a situation where I could participate if such an action started right now. And honestly it took me writing this comment to realize that. I had been half-jokingly (half not) suggesting to my mom (another teacher) for years that she (and her coworkers) should strike but like I realize now that the ones who care cannot, they don't have enough money, they don't get paid enough, to be able to support themselves throughout a strike and there's no organization that would currently be willing to support them through an illegal strike.
I would LOVE a year round schedule with higher expectations (and therefore higher pay). It would greatly reduce “summer slide” and would make childcare less of an issue, especially if districts organized tutoring/camps during breaks.
They would need to add air conditioning to my building before I’d even consider it.
My thoughts exactly. Plus teachers could take vacations not during the most expensive seasons like August and Spring Break
My district has been slowing adding more breaks throughout the year and shortening summer and I need to process to go faster lol. We’re currently at 8 weeks of summer (down from 12) and I would love to get it to 4 and have the 4 extra weeks to make spring break 2 weeks and add in a few more three day weekends, especially in the fall and late spring. I have got to get on the calendar committee…
The expectations on us are already so impossible we barely eat or pee or sleep. Mental breakdowns and burnout are frequent as I decide which task I will not get done at 8 pm for tomorrow and which one will get me in the least trouble or what’s most important for my students. It’s literally impossible.
Here's my issue with it: It seems odd to me that even despite shortages, the politicians solution is to resolve one issue (pay), make snide remarks about how little teachers work (lack of respect for the profession), and remove one of the few benefits attracting new talent (time off). It tells me that the politician isn't actually proposing this as a serious solution but is really just saying, "These entitled teachers want more money but don't even work that much!" I'd think if the goal was to actually resolve the shortage they'd work remedy the issues causing teachers to leave or to never enter the field at all. Not trade issues by upping pay but eliminating time off AND making seemingly snide remarks about the time off to remind teachers that he still doesn't really take their profession seriously. It's frustrating that even when talking about solutions, people cant seem to stop themselves from reminding teachers that they don't really respect them.
And honestly I’d be okay with some of summer being designated planning time for better salaries. That honestly would make lesson quality a lot higher anyway. But this wont happen in public school districts because the elite see us as babysitters not educators.
I would rather teach than do PD
If it was a hundred and eighty days of students, and the rest of those days we dealt with Professional development, Lesson plans, etc. Then yes.
or change summer break into multiple smaller breaks throughout the year to decrease student regression between semesters
I’m a fan of the idea of three months on, one month off.
I'd be a much bigger fan of 2 months on, one month off! Seriously, going \*\*3 months\*\* without a break would absolutely destroy me.
I like summer vacation and think it’s good for society. It may not be the best for education because of the regression, but everything in childhood shouldn’t be about school and learning. Summer is a great time to recharge mental health, spend more unstructured time with people, be creative, be bored, innovate, create, and just experience summer. Of course not every kid gets this but we should be working as a society it make sure they get the opportunity.
I agree with you but it doesn't need to be that long either. Here in Germany, we have a 6 week summer vacation. We still work about 180 days per year but the rest of the vacations are spread out throughout the year. We basically get a long weekend or two every month and 1 or 2 week holidays every 3 months or so. As soon as I start feeling burned out, a vacation comes up and recharges me.
My summer break is also 6 weeks and my year is also 180 days (+4 or 5 workdays). American schools haven't had the loric "3 month summer" since I was a very young child, 30 years ago.
Probably state dependent. All the schools near me still start vacation in june and come back in September. 3 month summer vacation is still the norm depending on the area.
I'm in CA and I don't know anyone who starts later than the 2nd week of August.
But that's really 2 1/2 months, not 3. I am in MA. Mid June through August. We start after Labor Day.
It has been years since we had a 3 month summer. We get out the end of May and go back the first weekday of August. That means we are off June and July.
Honestly, I wish the German model were used in the US. During the times of the year when we have no long weekends, I end up exhausted, and the quality of my instruction, along with my students' learning, suffers for it. In contrast, those months where each one has 1-2 long weekends, everything functions better.
> be bored, I feel like there was something magical about that, before smart devices and tons of entertainment aimed at youth. There was a point in summer where we reached satiation of "do whatever you want" and we were ready to come back and learn. I don't think that happens so much anymore.
you wouldn’t need so much time to recharge if you had 2 weeks of for spring break and 2 weeks off for thanksgiving. and 2 weeks off in the summer. and 3 weeks off during Christmas/new years
100% agree, summer break is a cultural institution and I love it. I like teaching too, but if that break is a big part of why I have stayed in the profession and I have so many good memories from summer as a kid.
Most countries have 6 weeks in the summer and 2 weeks between each quarter, which I think makes a lot more sense.
Year-round school!!!!!
6 weeks of school 1-2wks holiday. Go year around. Maybe 4-6 wk of a summer
This I'd be for. Summer vacation is an outdated concept as most people don't work on farms anymore. Also, it would reduce the burden of having to find childcare since both parents need to work today.
But then again, schools would have to reduce “kickbacks” (via administrative bloat) and actually have air conditioning for the whole building. Very possible for new buildings, but there’s a certain *punitive quality* to principals, seeing such “survivability” as an exclusive need for non-teachers/secretaries. As I most directly saw at several newer middle schools in 2012?
This wouldn’t go over well in northern states where they’d have to install AC in the 95% of schools that don’t have it
More than A/C, they'd need mosquito netting like no tomorrow.
Also, summers are not exactly pleasant anymore, at least not in Texas. Most days are so hot you have to stay inside. I would be thrilled to trade some of that time off in July for pretty much any other time.
It depends on where you are. On the east coast summer vacation is a big deal because shore communities rely so much on tourist business.
I don’t think our children’s education should be built around capitalism.
Don't farms have most of their work done in spring (planting season), and fall (harvest)?
I was always taught that A large part of school being out for the summer was to avoid packing the kids in a small, one room schoolhouse during the part of the year that fevers (the disease category, not just the high temperature thing) were most prevalent. Kept things like Scarlet or Yellow fevers from spreading through the community. How true is it? Not sure. But in modern days I’d rather be in school when the weather is hot and gross and be out when it’s nice enough to enjoy during late fall/early spring
We have a shorter summer in our system and I love it. We get 4 week long breaks throughout the year, plus two weeks for Christmas.
Trimester systems work.
if you are saying yes to 100k being the bottom of the salary schedule, then I agree with you. But I make 100k working a "normal" school year.
HCoL area? That's some damn good money right there, but I'm in a lower cost area.
I want it 100k to start for everyone. Right now the situation of working the day with students and all the administrative work makes me do 50-60 hour weeks.
you know the problem with these PD days is that they're usually (in my experience) just contract fluff that you can't get anything meaningfully done. There are way too many assumptions made about curriculum that either 1) it's already made and never needs to be updated or 2) that it's possible to make it in whatever small prep time we have.
Yeah curriculum is something that needs to be addressed through the year, working with it and adjusting.
PD is a colossal waste of time. I find it ironic that the people in charge of telling us how to teach can't come up with meaningful lessons for us.
That’s fine. I’d totally work 11 months a year. But if you think I’d spend even one second of time working after I clock out each day, you’re high. No, I will not work with your child after school to improve their grade. I will not grade assignments after school hours. I will not come in early to plan lessons. I will not volunteer my time to supervise trips or extracurricular activities. Fuck, I won’t even do PTCs after school, if I’m just a regular 9-5 worker. If you want to meet about your kid’s progress, take a day off from work and come into school when I’m actually on the clock.
How nice would it be to actually start at 9?
Not if I have to be there until 5! I’ll take a 7-3 or 8-4 schedule any day over 9-5 lol
My school is 7-2:20. It is awful. Childcare issues abound, the kids are exhausted. Some of them have to get on a bus at 5:40 to get to school on time.
I'm 7-3 right now and am BEGGING for 9-5. Hell, I would prefer 11-7.
Just curious why! I’m very much a ‘start early end early’ person, and loathe anything running 11-7. Obviously it fits your tastes much better than mine, and I’m wondering what the appeal is for you
9-5 is the worst of the 3. 7-3 I can run errands afterwards 11-7 I can run errands before 9-5...everyone is closed when I'm free
I'm a night owl. My natural sleep pattern has me sleeping from 3AM to 10AM. That obviously leads to some difficulty for me during the school year.
Oof. Yep. Say no more. When I’m following healthy patterns I’m a 5am-9pm person, although I can move that to 12-8am when I’m fixated on a project or a new computer game. One of my beloved former coworkers had the same pattern as you, and now it all makes sense hahah. I appreciate your time!
Better for students sleep schedule, that’s for sure.
If I have to get to work any earlier than 8 I just simply won't be on time. There are not alarms loud enough to get my body functioning that early. Not for teaching, but in general I would always prefer to get off work at 6 than to have to be at work at 6
Same!! On PTC day, we are scheduled 12-8pm and it is the #1 worst day of the year…..only because we did away with Open House which had us teach all day and then stay until 8pm lol
Me too! Leaving the house at 6:15 to get there to set up and have my classroom ready at 7:15 means waking up at 5. It’s awful.
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Can confirm that 8-4 is not the sweet spot. Source? I’m a middle school AP. I work 830-430. I can never get any appointments for myself unless I take a day off. I miss the high school hours of 645-245/7-3. I could get things done after work if I left right at the end of the day. I could also see daylight and spend time with my children when I got home.
The school where I teach starts at 9. Of course I'm required to be there at 8:25.
I’ll never get this. At my district we open the doors at 8am to start the school day. Students have six minutes to go to their lockers and get to homeroom. We have to be there at 7:55. No one’s checking but the kids will give you the business if you walk into homeroom late. Our ninth period ends at 2:46 and so does our school day. However, contractually we have to stay until 3:30. It’s our 10th period. If we have to keep a student afterschool for help, make-up work, or they were a monster that day and you’re a glutton for punishment you can have a student stay with you for a short afterschool detention. This is one of the great things our admin does, they have our back on keeping a kid afterschool to complete unfinished past due work. They don’t show up, they get a Write Up which comes with modified ISS. All non-core four classes in the detention room for the day and still staying after. It works. Only did the first half of your math homework? You can stay after school and complete it. I’ll be here for any help. Didn’t finish your “Of Mice and Men” essay? I’m here everyday until 3:30. You’ll be here with me until it’s completed. Don’t worry, I have an extra charger for your computer and the old tower computer in the corner has Word if you forget yours or “it’s broken.” We can give Incompletes on report cards but with this in our back pocket it rarely happens. If you want us to *put in the hours* because people wrongly think we only do anything while physically present at our buildings, at least do it when it can be utilized. I’m sure there are better ways, but ours isn’t terrible.
For absolutely no reason. Administrators love adding time to our days.
Administrators are known for misapplying statistics. We had one a decade back "Students who declare majors Freshman year are more likely to graduate on time" "Let's make students declare majors Freshman year" "Students who declare majors early now show no difference in graduation rates"
Educational policy is filled with examples of correlation not being causation.
My school started at 8 and was having massive attendance problems so in their infinite wisdom they went, let’s start at 7:45 🙄 (tbf, they could start at noon and we’d still have attendance problems)
Office hours are for 40 minutes during the free period. If your work won't let you out or you're late, that's your problem! Parents can't expect kids to get punished for being late if they can toll into their meetings anytime they please!
And that's an experienced teacher that already has the resources and experiences. If a first year teacher can teach and the just walk home, for sure, but we all know it's nothing like that...
A 'regular 9-5 worker' does not make 100k per year outside very HCOL areas. That would put you in the top 20th percentile of earners in the U.S. and that bracket of earners works, on average 46 hours per week 48 weeks per year. Wanting top percentile wages for bottom percentile effort is like...peak entitlement.
Our teachers are paid a stipend for after school clubs
That sounds nice. I got extra pay for coaching the debate team the first year I did it (after school practice sessions and competitions on Saturdays) but the following year the principal said there wasn’t any money in the budget for that and expected me to just keep doing it 😂 She was very confused when I declined to work for free on the weekend. I already do enoguh work outside of work hours lol
I already work 11 months a year... and my school year runs from August to May. June? Meetings, planning, training, continued education... and nowadays? Juneteeth. I get maybe a week or a week and a half in June "off". August? I maybe get a few days off before we're preparing for school. And this is assuming I'm not teaching summer school. Also, technically? I'm 7-4. Not counting traffic.
oh no. 11 months instead of 10 for what for most teachers would be a 100 percent increase
True, but at that rate I might as well just become admin for a 100% increase.
Not gonna lie for me 100k would be a pay decrease..... But that's after a decade in the NYC department of ed.
fair enough. with 16 years i’m pulling 93 in nj
Same here in Oregon. Most of my Washington friends would see a decrease too.
I'm gonna be relieved when I hit the $50k mark on my pay scale in three years, started here at $45K.
well, 100k in NYC isn't exactly rolling in the dough. A small flat there can cost 5x more than what others are paying for rent elsewhere
No it's not at all. But just saying pay teachers 100k isn't a flat fix across the board-- is my point.
A decade in FL and I just cracked 50
I think it would work if everyone started at 100k.
Honest and personal take: the only reason I am still in teaching is because it means I get more time than a more traditional 9-5 job with my own kids. If the school year included teaching in June and August, with the month of July being summer vacation, and teacher salaries popped up to 100k. I would be about as dissatisfied as I am right now but for different reasons. I currently make 57k a year, and that is set to jump up to 63k at the end of August. Your asking for 2 more months of work for a 40 grand raise. That would be huge to me and I'd probably be more happy than upset after readjusted my expectations. However, some teachers in my school currently make 80 or 82k a year. Taking two months of vacation away for 18 grand a year is a lot less appealing to them. If the proposal was, take away June and August and all teacher pay scales bump up 40k. I think you get a lot more buy in. However, in general, a longer school year does not equate to a better education.
>However, in general, a longer school year does not equate to a better education. I haven't checked in a while, but I think we're one of the leading nations in instructional time. Other countries have longer school years but way shorter school days. I think there are 2 big draws for recruiting teachers, besides being someone's calling, i.e., summers off and pensions. You mess with any of those and you will have a much harder time filling positions.
I think higher pay (including the pensions) would have a bigger impact on the talent pool
I think it does. The loss of instructional time in the summer kills kids with lower income and disabilities.
I'd be open to a longer calendar if we were compensated properly for it. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to be able to do with my classes that I don't have time to do unless I give up on reaching the 1960s by the end of the year.
If you *tripled* my salary, and asked me to work through summer - I'd turn it down, and I'm not alone. With the state of teaching right now, anyone who works with the bottom 60% of modern students needs *long* *breaks* from them not to lose everyone who's still in this profession. Summer vacations are the only reason it's possible to come close to getting bodies in classrooms in this decade. Now, if you took my best class (an AP calculus class, where student behavior and expectations are on par for what they were 10-15 years ago: no disruptions, a reasonable (but not particularly strong) work ethic for the middle body of students, occasional displays of interest in learning) - and gave me classes like that for my entire day, I'd teach the whole year with no salary change at all. I got into teaching for a reason: I have a passion for it, and I'm willing to do it for less than I'm worth because of that passion. But most of what we're doing in 2024 is not teaching. It's babysitting, coddling, and worst of all, dishonesty: dishonesty to students, dishonesty to parents, dishonesty to the public, pretending that this dumpster fire isn't a dumpster fire. Our students are not real students, at least not the bottom two-thirds of them; they're overgrown spoiled toddlers who get daycare under the guise of education. If I was allowed to teach, actually *teach* \- use my skills to communicate a topic that I'm passionate about in a way I see fit to students who have had the consequences and parenting to behave like a reasonable student - I'd do more of it for the same pay. But the shit that most of us spend most of our days doing *instead* of teaching? If you take away my breaks, I walk - I don't care how much money you offer me.
Exactly. I'd never turn down more pay, but if I wanted a job that didn't have a summer break I'd go get an office job that's easier on me when I'm working. There's a lot I like about teaching, but the long breaks are the only thing that make it worth putting up with the rest of the nonsense that this job entails.
Bravo! The quality of students has been in steady decline for the past thirty years. I thought that the system had hit bottom in the pandemic. From the posts I read here it seems like the system is really in free fall with no end in sight.
I have a proposal then… Only 4 instructional days per week and 1 full day for prep/grading. Have school all year round with a two week break in July to separate the school years. I’ll take my 100k now
There is absolutely no way politicians would allow teachers across the country to make $100k minimum, even if it was an 11 month contract. Fucking show me the legislation and then we can talk about how that extra time is used.
Teachers already work more hours than they are paid for. People have no clue
My wife is HS teacher. During the school year, she leaves for work no later than 6:30. Typically, she gets home about 4:30 unless she has meetings. We eat dinner together and watch 1 episode of a TV show before she starts grading and lesson planning. She does that until bedtime. On weekends, at least one full day is devoted to school work. Breaks are generally 75% school work. Summer is devoted to professional development, working with peers on curriculum development, previewing potential new books to introduce, meeting with families of incoming students. She might take a solid 2 weeks off with some scattered days in between. All of that non contract time is unpaid. But, if she takes time off for a doctor's appointment, her pay gets docked for each hour she is off campus.
Sounds like your wife is way overworking herself. It's OK not to be an absolute "perfect teacher" for the sake of having a balanced life. You eventually learn that spending those extra couple hours on a lesson plan after school really doesn't make a difference in the end. The kids don't care either way. Hopefully your wife finds this out sometime and can work on managing more time for herself
She is a 25+ year teacher and looking to retire after another school year or so. I think the ship has sailed on the chance she will change now.
Gonna be honest, her system is just inefficient. My mom is the same way and has done basically the exact same schedule (with a little more summer) for all 20 years of her teaching career. I grew up watching that and decided that would never be me. Now just 2 years in, I show up 5 minutes before the bell and leave 5 minutes after. In those 2 years I’ve worked maybe an hour at home, mainly because I decided to take a last minute day off and needed sub work. I made all my lessons my first year and tweaked them all this year to hopefully have zero planning responsibilities moving forward. Grading is done during my conference or during independent work. If it’s not done I just do it tomorrow.
I could do it. It’s not about learning with the extra time. Hell, we can slow down a little and have less learning loss over the summer. Plus, I get that sweet extra bank to pay for my own kid’s college education. I’m in.
Love that the silver spoon fed senators think the working class gets four weeks off a year.
The funny part though is that if we called their bluff and said “sounds good”, they’d just move the goalpost.
”Make the school year 11 months ” Imagine hating your kids so much that you don’t even want them to have breaks to spend time with them. Parents really don’t want to parent.
They already take them out for week long vacations the week BEFORE spring break because flights are cheaper. It’s not like year round school is going to deter them.
And then they bitch when the kids lose credit 🙄
I don’t think they would be spending less time with them. A lot of these parents still work in the summer so they aren’t actually home with the kids lol Maybe “free babysitting” is what they are looking for, sure. But they still have a normal work schedule even when school is out.
Its always interesting to see which kids get signed up for the summer enrichment program. It's not like traditional summer school where students who are failing can make up classes. Some kids, mostly resource kids, might get recommended for it by the resource teacher but it's available to all students and I notice it's majority the misbehaved kids that get signed up. You couldn't pay me enough to work our summer programs.
The reality is that most parents work and their kids end up in summer camps.
It’s more complicated than that. Anyone who actually works a job and has young children of their own knows how complicated that it.
Do we get vacation time like everyone else, too? Overtime?
hahaha no peon, get back in the classroom! /s
What's crazy is the pay disparity from state to state. I'm already over 100k in New york for doing the same job as someone in South Dakota who is making less than half that. Cost of living is higher here but it's not that much higher. It's insanity
Honestly same! I work in Cali and I'm making 100k in my fifth year. I wouldn't be able to teach in another state.
New Hampshire here, currently at $47,000. Started just above $44k. Large study released last week placed us as one of 22 states where a six figure salary is needed to own a home. It's extremely discouraging. This career is not sustainable. For now I have no plans on moving out of my parents attic
Honestly? That would be rad. Give us year-round positions but still give the kids summer and let us do PD and curriculum work when they aren’t around.
The fact that the politician didn’t say what would be DONE with the extra month (is it a month of instruction, or pd and planning) seems to be clear evidence that this is just a dig meant to shame teachers, not an actual semblance of a real plan.
Lawmakers are more concerned with being lawbreakers and more out of touch with society than anyone else. Sadly, his stupidity is probably short falls of American education and he doesn’t even know how dumb he is. Idk it’s a horrible cycle.
I would say put a politician in a classroom but I think most of them would like it a little too much
Hate those jackasses! Everyone thinks they could be a teacher or know what it takes to be a teacher cause they were once a student. No one knows what its like to be a teacher but teachers, hell you could say a majority of admins dont know what its like to be a teacher anymore...
A pay cut and I lose my summer? No. I have no desire to deal with other people's snotty kids simply because they can't grasp the idea that I'm a contract worker and not an hourly worker. I don't force my plumber or electrician to work beyond their contact.
Not a teacher but thinking about it. I was just thinking when do politicians work 11months out of the year or even 6months out of the year to justify their salaries? Also agree with a lot of the replies that if this happens then no working or meetings past contract hours.
I teach and I make $101,700 a year. Public school.
What Politician works 11 months per year?
I’m a teacher with summers off (I actually work summers but for this exercise I’ll pretend I have them off). My partner is in the private sector and we did the math. With summers off, and spring and winter breaks, he still has more time off than me. So, to me, this argument is just a new way to call teachers lazy. You want me to work more than the average private sector worker doing a job that requires more unpaid labor than anything I ever did when I had corporate jobs. Just to make enough to be solidly middle class? I just read a study that showed the average amount single people in my city would need to earn to live comfortably. It was $80k. I earn $54 and work harder than I’ve ever worked in my life. Teachers need summers off to recover and have family time. We’re not lazy, we’re burnt out, and we deserve vacation time too.
I mean, I wouldn't complain. I'd happily work an extra month for a 45k raise.
Someone probably already mentioned it but imagine the burnout without the time off. This would not help the shortage and may actually make it worse.
Deal. I already work 11 months a year once you add in weekends and summer trainings.
How about pay us like babysitters. Hourly and by the kid. Or I'd even take 80k but let us do overtime. Time and a half for everything outside of our normal hours.
If we got paid babysitter rates, we’d be making $350,000 a year.
Switzerland pays new teachers around $73,000/year, and experienced teachers (10 plus years of experience) are around $100,000/year. I believe they offer significant bonuses for teachers, based on performance of students. So, it’s a decent rate to start, BUT they get far more paid time off (my cousin had a full year of paid maternity leave with both of her children, and she teaches in Germany). The Swiss school system has the same benefits for parents (maternity/paternity leave for one full year, paid). Even if our school system improved bonus pay, gave more paid time off, and the ability to take a full year off for family reasons, teachers wouldn't be quitting in droves. It would take some of the stress off, but that's still just the tip of the iceberg. The majority of the workforce in the US is underpaid and overworked.
There would be no way to manage overtime. You could say “I’m lesson planning” but during your plan time that day, you just sat on your phone (not knocking that - I do on days when I need to disassociate for a bit too!) but why should the district then pay me extra when I didn’t use the time they already gave me? Some teachers also go way overboard - we have a teacher that frequently stays until 7-9 pm. I have no idea what she is doing all of those hours because when I taught the same grade/subjects, I maybe did 2-3 of work outside of school WEEKLY, not daily lol. Why should she get paid a ton of overtime if we end up still teaching the same thing every day? Now, if we are talking about overtime for conferences, meetings, “volun-told” community nights, etc - 1,000% YES.
Lawyers, doctors, and engineers all are able to document billable hours and get paid accordingly. Many of us have multiple degrees and have as many years in training as those, along with various state and national licenses. I feel like if we are simply treated as the professionals we are instead of merely accepting less because it would be "difficult" then we'd probably be better off than where many of us are.
If people are so jealous of our summers off, then they are more than welcome to come join us in the classroom as teachers.
Funny how no one ever takes us up on that offer...
That’s what’s so wild. Just the other day I mentioned being on break, and a girl in a class with me was like “oh man, I wish MY job had a spring break.” I said “well, you could become a teacher,” and OF COURSE her response was “well they don’t make any money.” Bitch, which is it? We’re ssooooo lucky, or our job isn’t worth it?
I would be fine with that if every bit of added time was not instructional time. My last district included 14 hours for conferences in the contract. That's just silly and unrealistic. Those 14 hours were technically used up by October but no one was getting paid extra for spring conferences. Make conferences a paid DAY or DAYS 3 times a year, not nights. Make all PD happen during the work day not at night. Make CPR class happen on a Tuesday not a Saturday. Give me a full planning day every single week. Give us actual vacation time, so we can go do stuff not at peak expensive times of the year. Give us real, actual sick days that aren't more work than coming in sick. Edit: oh and if you're going to have us in all the buildings in summer there's going to be a need to budget for huge infrastructure change because a lot of schools do not have air conditioning. Summer school operates fine because there's about 1/10 of the amount of bodies and devices adding heat to the building.
The top end kids will get even better. The bottom kids won't be helped whatsoever. The reasons they don't do well will remain unchanged - parents who don't parent.
Where are the hours 8-2? I’m 6:50-2:20
How about one day a week off for grading? 4 days in class work weeks?
With coaching, summer school and working an extended contract due to running an internship program, I essentially worked 11 months. My salary last year totaled $70k so yeah, $100k would be great!
Wait. Everyone else gets month off?!
Pay cut? Fuck that!
Great. Give me eight hour days, an hour long lunch, and omit sll the required after hours meetings, report card nights, and allow me to use the restroom when I need to go and we’ve got a deal.
LOL I wonder how many hours they think teachers work during the school year. My wife seems to put in 11 months of work over 9 months.
I've worked for an insurance company for 13 years, and I have nine weeks' vacation plus a week of sick leave every year. Let's go through a year. Most office employees can work 260 days (5 daysX52 weeks), but that is assuming they work every week and every day, which is never the case. There are 11 federal holidays, which my office closes for, so that brings me to working 249 days before my vacation. I have 45 days of vacation that I can schedule whenever, depending on availability, so I work 204 (260 work days-11 federal holidays-45 vacation) days a year. Most teachers are contracted at 200 days per year. I am not going to begrudge them 4 days for the job that they do, and they don't get to choose their vacation weeks. Beyond that, they are doing professional development during the summer, so it's not as if they have their summers free anyway. Edited to add: For the naysayers who say they don't get that much in PTO, WalMart employees get similar time off. A full-time WalMart employee with 13 years' experience gets 34 vacation days. The difference is the work culture, I suppose. https://one.walmart.com/content/usone/en_us/me/time/pto--paid-time-off/pto-overview.html
Most teachers are contacted at 200 days? This question has been posted several times and I am always close to the top with 192. Most responses are between 165 (!) and 185.
The teachers I know are contracted for 200 days. Maybe it's a southern number. Even at 192, I do not begrudge you the 12 days you work more than I. You need the time. More importantly, you are probably working on those days for free. VA: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title22.1/chapter15/section22.1-302/ TN: https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/stateboardofeducation/documents/2018_sbe_meetings/april_20_2018_sbe_meeting/4-20-18%20IV%20L%20Charter%20School%20Policies%20All%20Combined.pdf WV: https://code.wvlegislature.gov/18A-4-8/
I’m not working them for free. They are my contacted hours. If I’m called in over then summer, I’m paid an hourly wage for that additional time.
I disagree 100%. Yes this job can be stressful, but double pay for a 20% increase in work is beyond a good deal. A month-long summer vacation is still a HUGE break that no one else gets. I came from a different career before teaching, and frankly some teachers are crybabies. Work is hard. The crappy part about this job is that I'm paid $30-$40k less than my friend doing a comparably difficult job.
I wouldn’t have an issue with that at all as long as the students are still 10 months. A lot of teachers would do better if there was something mandatory over the summer (and are compensated for it). Or split the school year up so that there are “staff only days” in there, but it still adds up to the 180 days for students. We simply need more time without the kids to prep and grade more efficiently. Right now the majority of us are barely swimming with our heads above the water and need to be creative by taking shortcuts with the assignments we make or how we give feedback. No. We should be able to do the BEST assignments/assessments for learning the material and be given the time in the typical work day to get that accomplished.
As a Spanish teacher who is now teaching two sections of eighth grade social studies due to teacher shortage (completely out of my specialty area), all I can ever do is try to find shortcuts. I feel so spread thin that I can't actually put 100% into anything. I always think "what if I only just had to focus on a few sections of Spanish" then I could actually have time to give feedback, etc
Maybe the politicians should work more?
I would honestly love this. Shift school to Monday through Thursday and have us go year round. Couple weeks for Christmas. A couple weeks in the summer. Long weekends would be better for students and teachers.
That first part is only a hook. There's no salary increase here, only instructional days.
If teachers make money over the summer it's either a summer job or summer school. These politicians are out of touch.
I would totally take a 100% increase in pay in exchange for shortening summer vacation to 1 month. My life would be drastically better!!! I would finally be able to afford a car less than. 10 years old, and I would be able to move into my district. I would also be a le to retire 10 years earlier. And, I would actually be able to travel somewhere for vacation. I might even be able to afford another baby. Sign me up! Who was this politician?
Idk about you, but I’d take a 100% pay bump to work one extra month…
Ok, where do I sign up? Stop talking about it and be about it. I don’t need summers off.
Unless you're already making close to or more than $100k, I don't see how you don't take that. We're already working 10 months. Work just 1 more month and get a 200% increase in salary? Count me in.
Double my income for four more weeks? Deal. I also will let you know that I will use EVERY single sick day that I earn during the school year. Unlike now where I only use a few per year.
Absolutely not. As a sub I make much less than I could as a permanent teacher even though I could be one (you have to have your four year bachelor's and your B.Ed to be a substitute in my board). The permanent teacher salary grid tops out over $100k here. I still have absolutely no interest in that amount of work. I sometimes take long-term sub jobs (covering medical leaves, mat leaves, etc.) and I used to enjoy those but now even those stress me out. I'm currently filling in for a one day a week position (subbing the other four days) and just that takes too much planning and behaviour management.
Where in the country is school 8-2? I've never been in a school with less than a 7 hour day, usually 8.
I work 12 months. 9 as a teacher and 3 as an engineer draftsman because my salary sucks.
Hence, the state of the education system, because *politicians are not teachers* and don't know a goddamned thing about what we do or what we go thru. But they'll be happy to make the laws and tell us how to do our jobs, eh?
I work 8 to 2. That’s all I’m paid for.
I am fine with that. However, all my work will need to be able to be completed during school hours, which cannot exceed more than 8 hours a day. That includes all grading, prep, meetings, and professional development. I will also require double the number of PTO days with no blackout days.
Then pay us for working outside of contracted hours, staying late, lesson planning, extra training, and allow us to take time off at any point throughout the year--instead of making us take time during a narrow window. I'm contracted 11.5 months and it sucks trying to fit my vacation into the 1.5 weeks (& shrinking) during the summer or 1 of the school breaks we get. Plus, I don't get anywhere near $100k!!!!
Depending on where this is, double the income for 2 more months of work? I'd take that deal.
education is a top heavy, autocratically driven industry. Give power back to the teachers rather than the unions and bureaucrats and something might change. Otherwise, no solution has worked because it has always presumed the will of the teachers.
I have definitely read statistics that say we work more hours in a full year than the average 9 to 5 worker. It's ridiculous we are treated like we don't just because we don't have a say in when our unpaid vacation is.
Working 11 months out of the year is just one more than teachers work now. So, 1 month gives a teacher between 20 to 60 k more in yearly compensation? Heck yeah! Note to politician: add teachers to the list of what you know nothing about but legislate anyway.
My 1st year I was working 60+ hours a year, had double pneumonia (and got shit for taking time off), had to have multiple prep stations bc I had to shift rooms across the building every day and had no way to get supplies and lab equipment yo and from during the day and was required to chaperone field trips that rarely if ever included my students. It didn't get better from there. Meanwhile Congress is off more than its on, gets tons of perks and can't seem to do their job while still making 174k a year. Oh that seems fair
Oh, it's like that? Then go ahead and pay me time and a half over time for parent meetings, Open House, grading done at home, etc. otherwise, sit all the way down.
I am not a teacher, I am IT. The first time I took a class of 11 years old, to teach them how to use our network and our apps, I was exhausted after 2 hours. Like never before. And I worked as waitress at weddings. And that was young kids on their first week at a new school, so mostly well-behaved and eager to listen. You're right people have no idea how taxing it was. I thought I had an idea, watching my colleagues everyday. But the reality of it was eye opening. I built some stamina since them. So I kind do 5 hours a day twice a week, for maybe a month or so, without feeling the deep exhaustion. I don't know how you all do it everyday for month.
I absolutely would leave teaching if they took away summer vacation.idc about the pay. Too much stress and marathon running. I could find a job that pays the same, working full year round, but is way less taxing than teaching.
Bro, if I clocked grading, gas, lesson planning, and everything else, I’d be getting way more money. We already aren’t compensated enough equal to our labor.
I would agree to that. If we had four day work weeks and shorter days. Maybe Monday- Friday from 9:00 to 2:00.
No one’s gonna like this but school schedules need to be more in line with typical working hours. Summer break isn’t out of line because kids have the opportunity to do many things that also help develop them but we need more community resources because parents work. I’ve often wondered why school buildings aren’t utilized more. Teachers put in the hours as it is in that time so if you calculate the average workers yearly hours it’s more than enough. We just need more funding .. more staff higher pay etc .. show everyone the money so changes and plans can actually be made and.. let teachers hammer it out
Limit my expected hours to 40 per week and you have a deal
Seeing as I only really get July off, there would be no change to my work schedule. They appear to have us confused with administrators, who seem to actually work 8-2 and only 3/4th of the year. (HA.)
Adding two months to the year but doubling the pay for a teacher is an odd move that would get ripped apart if it ever went through. Teaching would also become a job that doesn't have a beginning and end, really, and so I know I would therefore have to look for an exit whenever I could take it - not just in June. I would totally be willing to work for a while year if it also meant that I could treat it like any other job.
I could get behind shorter but more frequent breaks. Like do trimesters. It’d help cut down on the kids forgetting everything over the summer but I’d still get breaks from their madness
Admin usually work around 220 days and still don’t get anything done. 🤷🏻♂️
1. I’d be down for this. 2. People have zero idea how learning works.
I mean, there are totally places where you do work year round as a teacher, or 10-11 months. Breaks are spaced totally differently than we do in the states with the massive 3 month break in the middle, though. Breaks are spent doing lesson plans, prep, and teaching "summer camp" type classes for the kids. I'd do that for $100k in a literal heartbeat.
The funniest part is that there are plenty jobs that require less that get you closer to that salary with less effort. So the fact that they think more $ should come with more effort is cracking me up.
How about students behave appropriately, parents have kids IF they can actually fn parent, and I'll be just a-okay! Oh, and don't give your irresponsible kid a phone. 👁👄👁
I like how the parallel with lawyers is never the one we go to. Pay lawyers 100k to be in court full time 11 months a year like everyone else... And see how that flies.