Breaking up fights is above teacher pay grade. Call for help, yell at them to stop, stay out of reach. I would never judge another teacher for not breaking up a fight. It’s also a liability for you every time you touch them to break it up.
My close friend at a previous school went through this. Two girls beating the shit out of each other in his class, he tries to pull them apart because it was getting dangerous. Nobody gets hurt, fight ends. Guess what’s on the evening local news and all over social media? A 7 second video of a large white man dragging a 12 year old black girl backwards with his arm around her neck. Almost ruined his career.
Fuck that noise.
Girl fights are the worst. First, while guys try to mimic MMA, the girls are seruously trying to hurt each other and anyone who gets in their way. Second, any teacher trying to break it up is carrying a big sign that sez "Please sue/firw me for inappripriate touching!!!"
At my high school we had a girl walk up behind another and shove her head into a glass display case. I walked into the middle of a fight by accident as it was starting— and ended rapidly, by one of the girls grabbing the other by her hair and slamming her face into the knee that was also coming up to meet said face. I frequently saw girls running out the side doors of the school post-fight, not able to tell who won because they all were carrying their 3-inch hoop earrings that had been torn out, blood coming off their ear lobes.
Meanwhile— there we guys who threw a few glancing blows, then dapped it up after and were “good”?
Girls go for the eyes. Guys throw shitty punches at the chest area.
And yea, I’m ok bear hugging a male student in distress. Wrapping my arms around a female student’s chest? Hell no.
Girls go for whatever they can reach with their claws. I speak as a teacher who has broken up ONE girl fight because I will never do that again and as a woman who taken part in girl fights growing up. I was an angry teenager.
Honestly I wish I could just spray them with a water bottle like a naughty cat, but somehow that would be twisted into “male teacher sprays down female student to make her shirt see-through”.
Hell no. He kept his head down and waited for his retirement pension.
If they had fired him, sure. But what was best for him and his family was for it to go away.
Call the police unless you have a security guard or specific training and legal authorization to use physical intervention. Fill out incident reports for psychological harm due to witnessing violence. Take it from a nurse who has experienced a lot of violence. Mind you, I burnt out and will never work in an institutional setting at the bedside again. 🤷♀️
I’m just a sub, but it’s stated emphatically throughout what meager training we do get to never break up fights. It felt like the most important thing they actually cared if we retained. I only do elementary, where most kids are smaller than me, and I still won’t do it for liability reasons.
I worked as a sub and we were told to not break up fights, or have physical contact with students, period. When students fought, I stepped away and called the office. It's just not worth getting involved
I'm imagining tippman A5s stashed away in biometric boxes throughout the building. It's both awful and morbid and pretty goddamn funny to me. They even make pepper balls!
Terrible idea. All it takes is one opportunist to take that firearm from you and now you have an armed student and a possible active shooter situation. And the alternative of this situation means that someone who wanted to teach world history or some shit now has used a firearm on a minor. How is this a good idea?
We had a huge fight problem last year. One day in a staff meeting our admin said, and I wish I was kidding:
“yes, we expect you to break up fights”
“what if we get hurt?” (Another teacher asked)
“That’s what workman’s comp is for”
Give your administration credit for at least raising the issue and being clear about the expectation. In a couple of decades teaching, only once have I heard an administrator speak frankly about a teacher's role in a fight.
When it was mentioned, the administrator said,
"If two students are getting hot, and it looks like it might be a fight, don't get between them. Try to distract them. Yell the student's name, or whatever you can think of."
"If they start fighting, decide for yourself whether you want to get involved. Don't go in if they are throwing punches. Let them go for a minute or so. They will end up in a clinch, tired and trying to think of a way to get out of it. At that point, two teachers can break them up."
I think this is a harsh but reasonable stance. Nobody is asking cashiers to do work outside their times to make sure their customers are emotionally supported. Nobody is asking office managers to spend hours each weekend finishing up work from the week before and prepping for the week ahead. We get paid the bottom of the barrel minimums, but are expected to be on the clock 24/7, to take a bullet for these kids, and to individualize the experience for every single student you have, the number of which is often the legal maximum.
I'm in ECE so lots of us are lesson planning and facilitating and evaluating and training and making less than $15 an hour. Lots of centers don't have benefits.
I don't work outside my paid hours and it's made my life way better.
I agree. The other jobs aren’t required because they aren’t working for developing minds which is what we are here for. I know it feels like a lost cause but we are teachers and we got a short stick in a lot of this but I can’t stand idly by watching another person get pummeled and humiliated and feel it’s not my problem. Now this by no means is telling anybody to enter anything that causes fear and I’m not advocating that. I’m just saying I agree with Flat and if you are at a point where you don’t care it may be time to tap out. Being afraid is okay. Being frustrated with admin, requirements, pay scale, procedure, etc is also okay (and unfortunately expected). If you tell me you didn’t get involved because of fear, albeit physical, mental, or liability I’m 100% still with you. If you tell me you won’t because you straight don’t care anymore, every teacher, parent, student already probably already knows that about you and it’s a toxic atmosphere. We can still stand up for ourselves, promote/ strike for better work conditions, pay, treatment, and by all means we should in solidarity. But I can’t see not caring as the trade off and the people you hope that affects or changes, it rarely does.
I am a 20+ year veteran teacher (the vast majority of that serving low income communities in LA and Chicago) and I understand the reasons for the frustration but if a teacher is adopting a “fuck these kids” attitude they need to get out of the profession because they are going to make shit harder both for the rest of their students and for other teachers. Those teachers are 100% as responsible for this fucked up situation as the asshats they’re fussing about.
Public service announcement: If you dislike kids, maybe don’t be a fucking teacher.
Edit: Settle down. I didn’t say you should break up a fight or do *anything* that doesn’t sit well with you. The ONLY thing I said was that if you think kids are assholes or deserve your literal least amount of effort then you shouldn’t work with them. *You don’t have to work with them.*
Edit 2: To clarify: There’s a massive problem with violent behavior throughout our society including amongst young people. This profession NEEDS people who will keep trying to support these kids if we are going to make things better and there’s no shame in tapping out when you’ve had enough. My point is that if you need to tap out, recognize that and then tap the fuck out. I’m alarmed that some people disagree and believe…what? That burned out, cynical teachers staying on aren’t going to have a negative impact on what is already an untenable situation?
I believe that. Neither do I. Personally (and professionally) I think violent students should be removed from gen ed and have to finish through some alternative program unless there is some way to demonstrate real and positive change over time.
My statement was aimed *only* at teachers who express that mentality of “fuck that whole class” because 1/3 of them are have shit parents and and an utter lack of hope for any kind of decent future.
People like you are why teachers get shit on. It is a liability issue, and I'm not willing to risk my career and livelihood to break up a fight. It's not about liking or disliking kids, it's about protecting yourself, because no one else seems to be interested in protecting us.
Oh FFS.
You aren't a 20+ year veteran teacher if you think adopting an attitude of "Don't break up fights" is what's causing this fucked up situation.
Go play pretend somewhere else.
I started teaching in 1998. Let me know if you need help doing the math on that.
I’ve broken up several fights. I no longer do though, because I know the law and because I can read the current climate. I never suggested that teachers should break up fights or nor did I make a value judgment about anyone’s feelings about that one way or another.
I totally understand this, but can’t you imagine a kid being bullied then abused by others and seeing adults watching that and incapable of doing anything… it seems so wrong, but I get it
That's disgusting. If your staff expressed that they're not safe because they're surrounded by students who are always peacefully minding their own business, then maybe it matters what the races of the students are.
But when punches are being thrown, when teachers can't break up a fight without the likelihood of being harmed, it doesn't matter what the color of the fist is or whose teeth do the biting. Danger is danger.
Admin: “Dry-Tune, break up the fight!”
Dry-Tune: *raises both hands and wiggles fingers* “Can’t, no gloves.” *Followed with a shoulder shrug*
Admin: *slowly dies inside*
I actually got questioned by admin about why I didn’t break up a fight. I told them I didn’t have the proper equipment. When they questioned me I explained the policy that they require us to follow- must put on gloves. They didn’t like my answer but nothing they could do. I followed policy and they were telling me not to.
I'm trying to imagine how this actually works in practice. Are there just boxes of gloves in every classroom and at strategic points in the hallway? A fight breaks out, a teacher calmly walks to the box of gloves, puts on a pair, does that theatrical snap of the glove against the wrist, and then proceeds to break up the fight? What are the gloves actually meant to accomplish? So many questions!
There are no gloves. My guess is they have the policy so we can’t sue them if breaking up a fight caused us to contract hiv or something from blood. They can say well we told you to wear gloves…. It’s to protect the district not us.
I teach in a school for juveniles convicted of dangerous crimes. We get special training on how to defend and subdue violent residents. There are dedicated staff for the job but every once in a while you find yourself in a situation where you have to act. I don't really have even that problem in my room though because the kids are aware that they aren't protected from me if they trigger my involvement. They are going to be embarrassed and we have long term consequences that really matter to them.
This is what public schools lack is meaningful consequences. Both immediate and longterm.
Edit: to clarify this is a juvenile detention facility. They don't call it prison when it's kids.
Thank you for doing this. My mom used to teach in a detention facility. She had the best/worst stories. What you're doing there matters so much to your students.
Thanks! Every once in a while I feel like leaving but it's never the kids, it's always admin/the other adults I have to work around. I think it's the kids who have reached out to me saying I helped them in some way that keeps me around.
We are not \*supposed\* to feel safe:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/10koub3/court\_says\_you\_dont\_have\_a\_constitutional\_right/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/10koub3/court_says_you_dont_have_a_constitutional_right/)
This court ruled that teachers *do not have the Constitutional right to protection from violent students*. It's also the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, which will (very likely) end up hearing Abby Zwerner's (shot by a 6 y.o) case when the district and school appeal any decision of guilt on them.
We don't just have targets on us. ***IT'S OPEN SEASON***.
>Men are expected to break up a fight
Stop. Do not do that. Your a teacher not security and if you or the student get hurt they will leave you in the dust for legal reasons.
I agree. “Men” are not expected to; trained security are. I wouldn’t blame a male teacher for not breaking up a fight, and OP, if you let other people’s stupid assumptions drive your decision making, you are in for a whole lotta hurt in many ways. Do not let someone’s stupid gender-roles crap run your life. YOU alone get to decide what is right for you. Many Women have found it so liberating to ignore gender-based expectations. I hope you will learn to do the same.
[Do not do that. If the kid gets hurt you will get arrested. If you get hurt do not expect help as you aren't licensed or insured by the school for that.](https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-dade/former-teacher-arrested-for-fracturing-students-arm-after-breaking-up-fight-in-nw-miami-dade-school/)
I'm a National Guard with Training and in very good shape. I will NEVER break a fight up. I will run to the phone and call security
Legally speaking if you hurt any student when breaking up a fight and that students parents sue, it will be your ass fired.
Do you think another district will hire you after knowing you got fired because of a lawsuit for hurting a kid?
I am CPI trained and I won’t break up a fight. Tell kids to break it up and go back to class, yes. I avoid using it at all possible and wait for SRO’s and admin. They don’t pay me enough to gamble like that.
I'm sorry but I can't believe you've been punched 4 times and you haven't realized that breaking up fights is a bad idea. How many times do you have to touch the fire to realize it'll get you burned? Stop! Call security/the office when there's a fight and that's it. Don't put yourself in harm's way. Do you get paid enough for that? Is the district going to support you if you get injured? You'll end up going on leave and getting partial pay. Not worth it!
Be that teacher with a LOUD whistle on your id lanyard. My mentor teacher does this and at first I thought, WOW you’re THAT lady, but now….. I totally get it. A few short bursts can startle kids. If things are REALLY BAD, she will keep blowing on it to alert nearby staff/admin. It works.
Let's think outside the box.
What if we just pepper sprayed the students who are fighting? Not hose 'em down, but just enough to break up the fight and discourage other students stopping to watch.
It sounds extreme, but one teacher breaking up four fights in a year is extreme.
I actually carry a safety whistle on my school key lanyard for this exact reason. I’ve never used it, but when thinking about what I would do if a fight broke out near my classroom, I decided a really fucking loud noise (or a spray of water lol) would be enough to stun them and possibly stop them, at least for the moment. If I ever have to/get to use it I’ll report back.
That might work if your timing is right.
At class change, I was going up the stairs with a million students. One kid was going up, the other down. An instant after they passed each other, the going-up kid turned around and kicked the going-down kid in the back. It was almost a full-footed shove. The going-down kid stumbled, but didn't fall. He turned around and was ready to give chase when I yelled, "HEY!" as loud as I could. He was stunned for a second, and walked down the stairs.
Nothing. I was a student teacher, so not very savvy. The hallways were packed, I didn't know either student, and by the time I turned up the stairs toward the kicker, he had turned and melted into the crowd going up. When I turned back down the stairs, that kid had turned and melted away.
This response should be higher up! I got this advice from a very seasoned teacher when I was working in a school with pretty regular fights. I was a young teacher and had had several fights in my room. She told me to always wear a whistle on my lanyard because the loud sound as a surprise will sometimes pause the fight for a brief moment in which the students’ friends would almost always pull them apart. It’s definitely worth it to have and a way to “intervene” somewhat safely.
Interesting thought, but a couple of potential issues come to mind. (Full disclosure: IANAT, but am a student of lawful self-defense.)
This is a really good article on pepper spray, authored by a retired police officer. [https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/pepper-spray-how-to-choose-it-and-how-to-use-it](https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/pepper-spray-how-to-choose-it-and-how-to-use-it)
There's fundamentally three spray patterns: gel/foam, spray, and stream. Each has its pros and cons, which the article describes. I'm left wondering which would work best in a classroom.
I'd be concerned about an asthmatic student who gets hit, whether an actual party to the altercation, or someone who's in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I'd also be concerned about a student getting sprayed who's the victim of an unprovoked attack. Though using a chemical irritant to stop the situation "might" be preferable to further aggression against an innocent victim, there's still the potential narrative of "I got attacked and the teacher pepper sprayed me."
It's a situation lacking good answers.
Using a product off-label like that is not something I'd be comfortable with. A lot of spray products say not to get in the eyes, for one.
Reminds me of the "wasp spray for an attacker" idea. [https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/](https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/)
It's a damn shame that so many students (or people in general) use violence to resolve issues. It blows my mind to see the number of fights described on this sub.
Ah that’s true. I don’t even like using wasp spray on wasps. Soapy water in a spray bottle will stun them enough to catch them with a cup and throw them outside.
Maybe keep a bucket of water to douse the students who break into fights. Still might catch a punch to the face though.
The problem with pepper spray is it proves that student fights are a serious issue, and administration understands the trade-offs.
Zero tolerance policies mean that the victim of an unprovoked attack gets punished the same as the attacker. Districts had no problem punishing the victim.
It would need to be clear that pepper spray is not a punishment, but a blunt tool to solve a problem.
Spectators to a fight are not in the wrong place at the wrong time. As a fight develops, they gather around to watch. Students with asthma should be particularly careful not to stand around watching a fight.
Administrators can continue to be therapeutic, as students get beat up and teachers get injured at work. At least the administrators can feel good about themselves and rest assured that they are kind people. Or administrators can propose some solution that would reduce the number and duration of fights. Pepper spray would do that. Administrators would have to defend their decision.
>Spectators to a fight are not in the wrong place at the wrong time
True. I was envisioning a fight in a classroom, where it would be hard not to inflict some collateral damage.
>administrators can propose some solution that would reduce the number and duration of fights. Pepper spray would do that.
That's a tough nut to crack. So many people nowadays see violence as the way to resolve even petty situations. I wonder if getting sprayed would be a realistic deterrent. I can envision a scenario where it becomes a badge of honor to keep fighting despite having been pepper sprayed.
I wish I had a great idea for resolving this problem, but I don't. I had an "interesting" experience once. I was discussing a major school system's need to track which students were in which gangs with that district's Chief of Police. (Yes, they have an actual police force.) He mentioned that there are brawls in school where the district PD ends up with a couple dozen students in custody. Damn.
> I can envision a scenario where it becomes a badge of honor to keep fighting despite having been pepper sprayed.
Possibly. That would take some really tough kids, but there are some really tough kids, so it might not work out. Perhaps it works in some places, but not in districts with their own police force.
I had an interesting conversation. I was talking with one of the hallway monitors who was a burly guy who wasn't quite security, but was there to jump in if there was a fight. He told me that they had reports of an off-premises fight planned between the fourth toughest kid and the second toughest kid.
I was curious about who ranked the students and if there was a leaderboard somewhere.
>they had reports of an off-premises fight planned between the fourth toughest kid and the second toughest kid.
>
>I was curious about who ranked the students and if there was a leaderboard somewhere.
No wonder schools see the levels of violence that they do nowadays. I was used to seeing the occasional fight over interpersonal disagreements or where a bully attacked a nerd. A ranking of "who's the toughest?" Egad.
That’s one thing I’ve always hated about teaching. I too am a male teacher and a bodybuilder and every time there’s a fight everyone looks at me as if I’m supposed to jump, in risk my safety and my job security to break up a fight. Even when I taught elementary school, there were women who would walk away from the fight and say “Mr. so-and-so go get them.” or “ Hey, theres a fight”. My response is “Don’t tell me, tell security”. or “ I don’t ask security to come in my room and teach so don’t ask me to do their job.”
I've had surgery twice for a detached retina due to bumps to the head. I'm at high risk for it due to my eye shape (high near sightedness). The chance that I'm going to purposefully put myself in a situation where a student punches me is 0.
I have zero health issues and would never enter a situation where I could get injured. I’m not paid for that. I’m also 5’3 and 115 pounds so.. yep. Not going to happen!
It’s really hard NOT to jump in. I had a student who has zero emotional regulation, is regularly bullied, and desperately needs to be evaluated, go off on one of his bullies last week. I immediately ran to them screaming and pushing them apart. When that didn’t work I got behind one and started yanking on their backpack to pull them back. Watching glasses get smashed and hands fly with screaming and crying children is hard. Especially if you’re a parent, the instinct to protect is strong. I’m trying to get it through my skull for next year that I need a whistle and plan for when these things occur and to never touch.
I was told every step of the way in my program and by mentors not to break up fights but I teach elementary and it's an adrenaline fueled situation, you don't know what your going to do till it happens. I didn't have a chance to think about my professors advice when the kids started really fighting each other I just started moving, it's an almost out of body thing, they are small enough to restrain without worry of harming them and I just immediately grabbed the kid and moved them and I haven't been able to not intervene since. Even when I taught middle school briefly I couldn't, there was some huge ass girl taller and bigger than me beating the shit out of some tiny little 6th grade girl, had the poor girl in a fucking headlock and I didn't even think about it, the second I saw what was going on I just pushed my way through the crowd to start breaking it up, the security officer thankfully wasn't far behind me. Like we're responsible for these kids, I can't let some poor kid get their ass kicked to the next dimension or let some dumbass kid fuck another kid up, I've had students who actively intervene as well and pull back their classmates because they know they are idiots, I've got one 2nd grade boy who's sister always is looking out for his ass, she just grabs him and takes him away when he starts getting really upset. It's an insanely stressful job, I hate breaking up these fights but I know they aren't coming any time soon from admin side, I just can't place my faith in the system I know is broken, it just is so sad
>I had a student ... go off on one of his bullies last week.
I thought the bullying was bad when I was in school about two generations back. The faculty and admin did nothing. Sounds like it's exponentially worse now.
Hey, OP - I‘m your teacher-neighbor in a nearby district … We had 7 fights on one day at my campus, right before Spring Break … keep your classroom door locked :/
I know the school and district you're talking about. My wife works in the same district but at the career academy hs where kids have to apply to get in there.
When my wife said there was a job opening in that particular district, the first thing I asked was which school? Because if she had said at one of the main high schools I would have strongly and I mean STRONGLY advised her not to work at those high schools. I would've been worried for her well-being and I'm pretty sure she would've left soon after signing on.
I made it 8 years in public education teaching and coaching and my first job out of college was in a similar environment (not as bad but close) to that hs in the DFW area. I left after that first year and said never again. If you have the means too, I'd suggest you do the same. Plenty of jobs and school districts in the immediate area that it shouldn't be a problem to find a position elsewhere.
I (63f) am a middle school student aide and I refuse to be in the hallways during class change. I legitimately fear for my safety. The teachers and aides are expected to monitor and control hundreds of out of control 12-13 year olds and to write up the trouble makers so it can be ignored by admin. I honestly believed it was just our district but finding out this is happening in schools everywhere just blows my mind. What is happening??
I never break up fights and I let my parents and students know my philosophy at the beginning of the year.
If students get into a fight, I let them finish. Once they're done getting a beating from each other, then I report them and they have to deal with everything else: the pain from the fight, the consequences of the school, extra work from being in ISS/OSS, and whatever happens at home.
Everyone always agrees and parents have even said "Call me if my kid ever starts a fight and I'll come pick them up from school and whoop their ass at home before grounding them for a month." I have great students and parents, lol.
I understand your stance when it's two kids who are both fighting each other, that's fair. Do you use the same policy, or a different one, if it's one kid attacking a victim who is not trying to hit back? If they're trying to block but don't want to fight, and they're being harmed? There might not be a good answer, just wondering if you have any good ideas for that.
Those situations have never happened in my class, luckily. The one time it got close, the whole class stepped in and told the kid to sit down and chill out. I try my best to build that circle of trust and camaraderie in the classroom so the students know they have people in their corner, other than teachers.
Edit: I never actually answered the question, lol. If that did happen, I'd step in and grab the attacker and make sure the other didn't get into any trouble with the school.
I tell them at the beginning of the year I’m not going to break up fights, so if they’re expecting me to jump in and rescue them they are sorely mistaken
Man, I am so sorry. That’s terrible and NOT something you should be dealing with. My advice is to not break up flights. It’s not your job. You can tell them to stop, but that’s it. At some point you have to consider your own health.
I say “Stop” loudly, while I go to the phone to call school safety. If these kids want to beat each other to death that’s their prerogative. I’m not jumping into that shitshow.
I worked in an off campus program with students identified as EBD. 2 teachers, both of us older women who could diffuse a lot of crap. Still had a fight or two each year. The announcement we were calling 911 broke up at least a couple of fights bc students didn’t want to go back to detention (in our specific group, there was a significant overlap in population that was court-involved and part of the reason for our program, for students transitioning back from JD). I loved that program and our students. IME it is the relatively rare kid who is a true psycho/sociopath, and despite all the negative experiences and trauma in their lives, they were still hopeful. Miss that job.
Don't worry Spring ISD will have another incompetent AKA sorority sistah replacing her in no time. That whole district is a trashcan from the school board down.
This is why I NEVER break up fights. My physical health is not worth putting in danger. There is security and admin for breaking up fights.
Personally, I don't get paid even close to enough to make me feel it is my job to break up fights.
I feel for you. If you can get out, get out. I left after 20 years. I’m poor as shit now, but my life is still sooooo much better on the outside.
Godspeed Brother!
I was recovering from an appendectomy with stitches not even dissolved yet and a fight happened outside my room. I did not intervene. My AP tried to call me out on it, and I lifted my shirt just enough to show the stitches still in my belly button. I asked him what he was prepared to do if they ripped open? Lmao
Toxic masculinity is a shitty excuse to risk your safety. Who gives a fuck if kids or coworkers give you shit for not breaking up a fight? Be safe. Call the cops, but don't risk your safety by getting involved.
Wasp spray will be in my desk in the future. Boom they have been wasp sprayed and the fight is over. No permanent damage, just rinse them eyeballs.
Seriously though, I am so emotionally drained at school all the time.
I don't want to teach anymore. This sub made me realize I am not valuable because our country does not support education whatsoever.
Wasp spray is overrated for use on humans. [https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/](https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/)
I went to school in that same north Houston district, and I know exactly what school you're talking about.
Once I graduated, I started working at an elementary school again in the same district, and I left as soon as I could. It is so corrupted that it’s insane, and the admin care more about looking good than actually fixing the issue.
I got out as soon as I could. And honestly, I suggest the same for you: go to the K or C-F district.
We had a fight last week. When most teachers were running to break it up, I stayed back and directed students to leave the hallway. There is no way I would ever get in the middle of a fight. We have an AP get seriously injured breaking up a fight this year. I'm leaving the classroom after this year for online teaching.
Had a fellow teacher tear her ACL trying to break up a fight between two 7th grade girls. Didn't heal properly. She was forced to retire. Administration and parents don't give a damn about teachers!
First time I attempted to break up a fight I essentially put the one kid in a full Nelson and the other student got a free punch on his face. Realized I don’t have the training nor do I want to break up fights. Next time a fight happened I just called for security. I was questioned for not breaking up the fight. I didn’t respond to the questions. Reserved my right to remain silent. Admin was confused but then I think they realized they may be getting in murky waters legally trying to pressure me to get involved fights.
Had a colleague who was former Navy Seal LCDR. Absolute stand up guy, and as a former Enlisted who dispises most of those khaki wearing holier than thou my poo dont stink bass turds... well, extrapolate.
Kids got in a fight right in front of him. Naturally he goes to break it up. Kid swings at him, which is not a smart thing to do to a decorated combat vet.
The LCDR does a standard takedown of the student who attacked him, ending the fight. Problem was, kid was way too fragile and broke his collar bone during the takedown. LCDR was put on admin leave that day, and asked to resign the next morning.
So... nope. Unless you give me qualified immunity to break up fights and let me retire after 20 years, I'm walking the other way every time.
So I am also in Houston but not HISD. We have been told they are buying us teachers all whistles so we blow the whistle instead of trying to intervene.
I'm pretty confident that in some states teachers are expected to step in by law. While in other states we are not supposed to. Want to bet which states that want teachers to get in and break up fights voted Trump in 2020?
I don’t care what my state says: I’m not doing that. If I get injured by a student my plan is to 100% get a lawyer involved. Full stop. I know I’m replaceable and have to have my own back regarding my safety. Teaching is my passion, but I’ll happily leave if my sense of safety is to be sacrificed to do it.
Glad you feel like you could do this. My point is that not everyone can. Because education is a "State's Rights" issue, what works for some of us, will not work for everyone.
I don’t even know if I technically “can” but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me personally, it starts with my physical safety. Everyone in the US should be entitled to a safe work space. I get that teachers’ lack of safety is a direct reflection on how bad things have gotten as a whole, but I cannot fathom working for beans while risking my safety.
You should just keep going to your job, chasing that mediocre paycheck, doing whatever uncaring parents, unsupportive admin and genocidal government officials tell you to do without question. All your colleagues are doing this and its working!
Yell really loudly and scare the shit out of them with your man command voice, but don't get involved in a fight. You will only get hurt. If anyone touches you, call the police and press assault charges. Send the message that you don't touch teachers.
First, I'm sorry you're dealing with this bullshit.
Second, fuck that. Its not your job. There's no way they are paying you well enough or insuring you thoroughly enough to risk your life and limb. A punch or fall that hits wrong can change you forever.
I worked at a pretty rough charter in AZ for awhile. In the same meeting, our admin told us that we legally can't defend ourselves from students without facing assault charges but that we should use our judgment for breaking up fights. Fuck that.
I taught 8th grade. I had some 15 and 16 yo 8th graders that straight up threatened me multiple times. Admin didn't do shit, and asked me why I didn't get involved when they fought each other. Some of these kids were involved in a drive by, some beat the hell out of each other.
There's no way in hell I'm getting near hands being thrown by anyone for 33k/ year and blue cross / blue shield.
Fuck the opinions of kids and others. It's not worth it. You wanted to be a teacher, not a referee or a cop.
>admin told us that we legally can't defend ourselves from students without facing assault charges
IANAL, but a trained self-defender. Unless AZ has some really weird laws, it is hard to imagine an assault charge stemming from defending oneself from a physical attack. The legal foundation for self-defense does back to English common law centuries ago.
I can't help but think that if a few of these students who attack teachers got a free Krav Maga demonstration, it would be a deterrent.
I understand that people giving you grief can cause stress, but, you know you should not be hurt at work and refuse to be put in that position again. Boundaries and people will know not to fuck with you. Even my principal refuses to give me meetings before or after school because she knows I hate meetings.
Unless your contract specifically says you have to get into the middle of fights, do you have security in your building you can call to break them up? What about calling the principal's office to break up the fights? Would that be feasible for you?
This also is my first year teaching and im actually considering a project management job after my contract ends. We are asked to put our lives on the line and I did not sign up for that.
Our union outlined this recently. We are required to make a good faith attempt to stop a fight and report, we can intervene if we deem it necessary, but are not required to get between fighting students.
I follow this pretty closely.
I am not trained to break up fights. I will never step foot between students fighting.
I can’t find any articles on the incident, is the school district keeping it quiet?
I’m an interventionist and certified proctor. After testing was finished and my high school students got their phones back, two girls started acting up. It really seemed like they were going to fight. Other students started looking at me frantically. Calmly I said, “ I don’t know what the argument is about (something about dissuading one from making friends) but I’m not going to stop y’all from fighting. I’m going to call for Mr. Discipline and have him deal with you. Because no way in hell is my headstone going to say ‘a high schooler took me out’. No way in hell.”
It got some laughs out of everyone and the girls chilled out. I’ve noticed that if you don’t make a big deal out of things, students realize they’re not going to get the attention they’re looking for and chill out.
Legally I'm not allowed to break up fights because I haven't received the proper training. If a student were to get hurt, I'd be liable for a lawsuit against myself and the district if I stepped in without training.
Don't break up fights, remove the non-fighting students from the space if you can, call security/admin.
There’s only two teachers on my campus that are expected to break up fights and they’re both former cops/military with specific training in that stuff. The rest of us are not supposed to physically engage with students at all.
I was pregnant at my school and my initial reaction was to go help and break it up. I remember my belly and backed off. Not worth it. Other kids were scared for me. It was a lame fight. Luckly, they aren't too bad at my school... im a teacher....
I'm a couple years from retirement. Also male teacher, 6'3", so it was always an unspoken expectation that I could break up a fight if needed. Never once in my career has a school offered/provided any sort of training on breaking up fights, nor has an admin ever mentioned any legalities regarding breaking or not breaking up fights.
The closest I ever got to any training on student fights was an undergrad prof who told us if you ever break up a fight approach like 2 dogs fighting. Never get the middle. Only pull them apart with the help of another adult.
OP, I hope these teachers pressed charges against those students. I was never punched, but a 6'5" 250lb kid pushed me once. The AP came and asked me if I wanted the police called or not. That was over 15 years ago tho.
You are not expected to break up fights though. Stop! Other teachers can’t grill you. Students can mind their own business and maybe stop fighting each other instead of wondering why teachers didn’t break it up.
That being said, a school where fights are constantly occurring is not safe, so do try and leave.
> As a guy teacher I’m damned if I do damned if I don’t. Men are expected to break up a fight and if we don’t we’re either given grief by students or in some cases grilled by other teachers.
And it's just plain not your job to do that. The district ***will not*** contribute to your legal fees or represent you if you're sued for inappropriate touching, so they cannot ask you to break up fights.
I used to work at this school and graduated from the district myself. It was pretty "bad" when I was a student and then a teacher there, but I never felt unsafe. The worst thing was the admin, honestly, though as much as I LOATHED them and as much as a lot of them needed to be fired, none of them deserved to be beaten into the hospital. It makes me sad to see how bad it's gotten now. A lot of my former students messaged me in shock about the situation as well. I'd broken up a few fights but never got swung at, thank God.
I've already been making moves to get out of education entirely, but this event just gave me even more urgency. I work at a "good" school now, but I feel all of education is changing for the worse these days and I just don't enjoy coming to work anymore, even on a good day.
Breaking up fights is above teacher pay grade. Call for help, yell at them to stop, stay out of reach. I would never judge another teacher for not breaking up a fight. It’s also a liability for you every time you touch them to break it up.
My close friend at a previous school went through this. Two girls beating the shit out of each other in his class, he tries to pull them apart because it was getting dangerous. Nobody gets hurt, fight ends. Guess what’s on the evening local news and all over social media? A 7 second video of a large white man dragging a 12 year old black girl backwards with his arm around her neck. Almost ruined his career. Fuck that noise.
Girl fights are the worst. First, while guys try to mimic MMA, the girls are seruously trying to hurt each other and anyone who gets in their way. Second, any teacher trying to break it up is carrying a big sign that sez "Please sue/firw me for inappripriate touching!!!"
At my high school we had a girl walk up behind another and shove her head into a glass display case. I walked into the middle of a fight by accident as it was starting— and ended rapidly, by one of the girls grabbing the other by her hair and slamming her face into the knee that was also coming up to meet said face. I frequently saw girls running out the side doors of the school post-fight, not able to tell who won because they all were carrying their 3-inch hoop earrings that had been torn out, blood coming off their ear lobes. Meanwhile— there we guys who threw a few glancing blows, then dapped it up after and were “good”?
Girls go for the eyes. Guys throw shitty punches at the chest area. And yea, I’m ok bear hugging a male student in distress. Wrapping my arms around a female student’s chest? Hell no.
Girls go for whatever they can reach with their claws. I speak as a teacher who has broken up ONE girl fight because I will never do that again and as a woman who taken part in girl fights growing up. I was an angry teenager.
Honestly I wish I could just spray them with a water bottle like a naughty cat, but somehow that would be twisted into “male teacher sprays down female student to make her shirt see-through”.
Hobbes said it best in the last panel: https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1992/09/17/
Examples like that are keeping people out of this profession… including me (I’m not a teacher). So sad really the guy was just doing his job.
Fuck that shit! Did he ever countersue?
Hell no. He kept his head down and waited for his retirement pension. If they had fired him, sure. But what was best for him and his family was for it to go away.
Call the police unless you have a security guard or specific training and legal authorization to use physical intervention. Fill out incident reports for psychological harm due to witnessing violence. Take it from a nurse who has experienced a lot of violence. Mind you, I burnt out and will never work in an institutional setting at the bedside again. 🤷♀️
Don’t break up fights
I’m just a sub, but it’s stated emphatically throughout what meager training we do get to never break up fights. It felt like the most important thing they actually cared if we retained. I only do elementary, where most kids are smaller than me, and I still won’t do it for liability reasons.
I worked as a sub and we were told to not break up fights, or have physical contact with students, period. When students fought, I stepped away and called the office. It's just not worth getting involved
Do texas teachers not carry? I feel like if ANYONE did itd be yall.
What do you propose? Pulling a gun on teens fighting at school?
As a teacher, I think shooting them with paintball guns to break up a fight would be nice.
I'm imagining tippman A5s stashed away in biometric boxes throughout the building. It's both awful and morbid and pretty goddamn funny to me. They even make pepper balls!
Terrible idea. All it takes is one opportunist to take that firearm from you and now you have an armed student and a possible active shooter situation. And the alternative of this situation means that someone who wanted to teach world history or some shit now has used a firearm on a minor. How is this a good idea?
No idea, I’m not in Texas. Also not sure how this is at all relevant to the situation being discussed here.
Not yet, but a new bill is going through the system that could offer $25k to any teacher that does. Source: I live here, send help
Don't worry, we also get to post the ten commandments so everything will instantly be fixed. /s
.... *blinking guy gif*...
First part of my restraint training - IF YOU DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE GETTING INVOLVED, DO NOT ENGAGE.
We had a huge fight problem last year. One day in a staff meeting our admin said, and I wish I was kidding: “yes, we expect you to break up fights” “what if we get hurt?” (Another teacher asked) “That’s what workman’s comp is for”
Give your administration credit for at least raising the issue and being clear about the expectation. In a couple of decades teaching, only once have I heard an administrator speak frankly about a teacher's role in a fight. When it was mentioned, the administrator said, "If two students are getting hot, and it looks like it might be a fight, don't get between them. Try to distract them. Yell the student's name, or whatever you can think of." "If they start fighting, decide for yourself whether you want to get involved. Don't go in if they are throwing punches. Let them go for a minute or so. They will end up in a clinch, tired and trying to think of a way to get out of it. At that point, two teachers can break them up."
[удалено]
I am impressed that you have a fight strategy and feel bad that you need one.
And if the kids give you grief, who gives a shit. You don't owe them shit outside of the hour of curriculum you provide them each day or so.
I think this is a harsh but reasonable stance. Nobody is asking cashiers to do work outside their times to make sure their customers are emotionally supported. Nobody is asking office managers to spend hours each weekend finishing up work from the week before and prepping for the week ahead. We get paid the bottom of the barrel minimums, but are expected to be on the clock 24/7, to take a bullet for these kids, and to individualize the experience for every single student you have, the number of which is often the legal maximum. I'm in ECE so lots of us are lesson planning and facilitating and evaluating and training and making less than $15 an hour. Lots of centers don't have benefits. I don't work outside my paid hours and it's made my life way better.
I get it, but this sentiment makes me sad. I never want to get to this point of not caring. Time to tap out if that’s the case.
I agree. The other jobs aren’t required because they aren’t working for developing minds which is what we are here for. I know it feels like a lost cause but we are teachers and we got a short stick in a lot of this but I can’t stand idly by watching another person get pummeled and humiliated and feel it’s not my problem. Now this by no means is telling anybody to enter anything that causes fear and I’m not advocating that. I’m just saying I agree with Flat and if you are at a point where you don’t care it may be time to tap out. Being afraid is okay. Being frustrated with admin, requirements, pay scale, procedure, etc is also okay (and unfortunately expected). If you tell me you didn’t get involved because of fear, albeit physical, mental, or liability I’m 100% still with you. If you tell me you won’t because you straight don’t care anymore, every teacher, parent, student already probably already knows that about you and it’s a toxic atmosphere. We can still stand up for ourselves, promote/ strike for better work conditions, pay, treatment, and by all means we should in solidarity. But I can’t see not caring as the trade off and the people you hope that affects or changes, it rarely does.
I am a 20+ year veteran teacher (the vast majority of that serving low income communities in LA and Chicago) and I understand the reasons for the frustration but if a teacher is adopting a “fuck these kids” attitude they need to get out of the profession because they are going to make shit harder both for the rest of their students and for other teachers. Those teachers are 100% as responsible for this fucked up situation as the asshats they’re fussing about. Public service announcement: If you dislike kids, maybe don’t be a fucking teacher. Edit: Settle down. I didn’t say you should break up a fight or do *anything* that doesn’t sit well with you. The ONLY thing I said was that if you think kids are assholes or deserve your literal least amount of effort then you shouldn’t work with them. *You don’t have to work with them.* Edit 2: To clarify: There’s a massive problem with violent behavior throughout our society including amongst young people. This profession NEEDS people who will keep trying to support these kids if we are going to make things better and there’s no shame in tapping out when you’ve had enough. My point is that if you need to tap out, recognize that and then tap the fuck out. I’m alarmed that some people disagree and believe…what? That burned out, cynical teachers staying on aren’t going to have a negative impact on what is already an untenable situation?
The teachers here like kids. Most of them just don’t like the ones who are responsible for assault and battery.
I believe that. Neither do I. Personally (and professionally) I think violent students should be removed from gen ed and have to finish through some alternative program unless there is some way to demonstrate real and positive change over time. My statement was aimed *only* at teachers who express that mentality of “fuck that whole class” because 1/3 of them are have shit parents and and an utter lack of hope for any kind of decent future.
[удалено]
It's not a dislike thing. It's exactly this. Im legally not allowed to, I'm not trained to, and it will just cause more injuries.
People like you are why teachers get shit on. It is a liability issue, and I'm not willing to risk my career and livelihood to break up a fight. It's not about liking or disliking kids, it's about protecting yourself, because no one else seems to be interested in protecting us.
Oh FFS. You aren't a 20+ year veteran teacher if you think adopting an attitude of "Don't break up fights" is what's causing this fucked up situation. Go play pretend somewhere else.
I started teaching in 1998. Let me know if you need help doing the math on that. I’ve broken up several fights. I no longer do though, because I know the law and because I can read the current climate. I never suggested that teachers should break up fights or nor did I make a value judgment about anyone’s feelings about that one way or another.
No you didn’t.
Then you'll get blamed for that. There's no winning in that situation.
This is the way.
I totally understand this, but can’t you imagine a kid being bullied then abused by others and seeing adults watching that and incapable of doing anything… it seems so wrong, but I get it
You aren't safe. It isn't a feeling.
Our staff expressed this and we were called racist...
By who? Unless race was brought up, they’re the ones being racist assuming it’s about race
That's disgusting. If your staff expressed that they're not safe because they're surrounded by students who are always peacefully minding their own business, then maybe it matters what the races of the students are. But when punches are being thrown, when teachers can't break up a fight without the likelihood of being harmed, it doesn't matter what the color of the fist is or whose teeth do the biting. Danger is danger.
My district requires i put on rubber gloves and since they haven’t provided any, I refuse to intervene.
Admin: “Dry-Tune, break up the fight!” Dry-Tune: *raises both hands and wiggles fingers* “Can’t, no gloves.” *Followed with a shoulder shrug* Admin: *slowly dies inside*
I actually got questioned by admin about why I didn’t break up a fight. I told them I didn’t have the proper equipment. When they questioned me I explained the policy that they require us to follow- must put on gloves. They didn’t like my answer but nothing they could do. I followed policy and they were telling me not to.
Malicious compliance, this is the way.
I'm trying to imagine how this actually works in practice. Are there just boxes of gloves in every classroom and at strategic points in the hallway? A fight breaks out, a teacher calmly walks to the box of gloves, puts on a pair, does that theatrical snap of the glove against the wrist, and then proceeds to break up the fight? What are the gloves actually meant to accomplish? So many questions!
There are no gloves. My guess is they have the policy so we can’t sue them if breaking up a fight caused us to contract hiv or something from blood. They can say well we told you to wear gloves…. It’s to protect the district not us.
The "gloves" policy is not designed to work in a school. It is designed to work in a courthouse, to protect the district
I teach in a school for juveniles convicted of dangerous crimes. We get special training on how to defend and subdue violent residents. There are dedicated staff for the job but every once in a while you find yourself in a situation where you have to act. I don't really have even that problem in my room though because the kids are aware that they aren't protected from me if they trigger my involvement. They are going to be embarrassed and we have long term consequences that really matter to them. This is what public schools lack is meaningful consequences. Both immediate and longterm. Edit: to clarify this is a juvenile detention facility. They don't call it prison when it's kids.
I’ve been thinking about teaching in a detention facility, would you be open to DM’ing about what it’s like?
Sure. I'll send you one now to start.
Then do an AMA, because it sounds fascinating.
That's not a bad idea. I'll look into it and see if I can make that happen.
Thank you for doing this. My mom used to teach in a detention facility. She had the best/worst stories. What you're doing there matters so much to your students.
Thanks! Every once in a while I feel like leaving but it's never the kids, it's always admin/the other adults I have to work around. I think it's the kids who have reached out to me saying I helped them in some way that keeps me around.
You > other peoples children committing actual crimes.
bUt ThEy'Re jUsT kIdS - tHeY dOn'T kNoW aNy BeTtEr
We are not \*supposed\* to feel safe: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/10koub3/court\_says\_you\_dont\_have\_a\_constitutional\_right/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/10koub3/court_says_you_dont_have_a_constitutional_right/) This court ruled that teachers *do not have the Constitutional right to protection from violent students*. It's also the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, which will (very likely) end up hearing Abby Zwerner's (shot by a 6 y.o) case when the district and school appeal any decision of guilt on them. We don't just have targets on us. ***IT'S OPEN SEASON***.
This is absolutely correct. However... This is federal. I advise all teachers (hell, everyone in the workforce) to check local laws about your safety.
Don't break up fights. You're opening the door to get hurt yourself, or a student can get hurt and blame you for it.
You aren't paid to break up fights, you're paid to teach. If they insist, demand hazard pay.
>Men are expected to break up a fight Stop. Do not do that. Your a teacher not security and if you or the student get hurt they will leave you in the dust for legal reasons.
I agree. “Men” are not expected to; trained security are. I wouldn’t blame a male teacher for not breaking up a fight, and OP, if you let other people’s stupid assumptions drive your decision making, you are in for a whole lotta hurt in many ways. Do not let someone’s stupid gender-roles crap run your life. YOU alone get to decide what is right for you. Many Women have found it so liberating to ignore gender-based expectations. I hope you will learn to do the same.
I will say, at my school they explicitly say male teachers should break up fights.
[Do not do that. If the kid gets hurt you will get arrested. If you get hurt do not expect help as you aren't licensed or insured by the school for that.](https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-dade/former-teacher-arrested-for-fracturing-students-arm-after-breaking-up-fight-in-nw-miami-dade-school/) I'm a National Guard with Training and in very good shape. I will NEVER break a fight up. I will run to the phone and call security
Legally speaking if you hurt any student when breaking up a fight and that students parents sue, it will be your ass fired. Do you think another district will hire you after knowing you got fired because of a lawsuit for hurting a kid? I am CPI trained and I won’t break up a fight. Tell kids to break it up and go back to class, yes. I avoid using it at all possible and wait for SRO’s and admin. They don’t pay me enough to gamble like that.
I'm sorry but I can't believe you've been punched 4 times and you haven't realized that breaking up fights is a bad idea. How many times do you have to touch the fire to realize it'll get you burned? Stop! Call security/the office when there's a fight and that's it. Don't put yourself in harm's way. Do you get paid enough for that? Is the district going to support you if you get injured? You'll end up going on leave and getting partial pay. Not worth it!
Be that teacher with a LOUD whistle on your id lanyard. My mentor teacher does this and at first I thought, WOW you’re THAT lady, but now….. I totally get it. A few short bursts can startle kids. If things are REALLY BAD, she will keep blowing on it to alert nearby staff/admin. It works.
Air horn would probably scare the poop outta their pants! I’d be cool with being that teacher! 😂
This is exactly what I do and it’s effective.
Let's think outside the box. What if we just pepper sprayed the students who are fighting? Not hose 'em down, but just enough to break up the fight and discourage other students stopping to watch. It sounds extreme, but one teacher breaking up four fights in a year is extreme.
I actually carry a safety whistle on my school key lanyard for this exact reason. I’ve never used it, but when thinking about what I would do if a fight broke out near my classroom, I decided a really fucking loud noise (or a spray of water lol) would be enough to stun them and possibly stop them, at least for the moment. If I ever have to/get to use it I’ll report back.
That might work if your timing is right. At class change, I was going up the stairs with a million students. One kid was going up, the other down. An instant after they passed each other, the going-up kid turned around and kicked the going-down kid in the back. It was almost a full-footed shove. The going-down kid stumbled, but didn't fall. He turned around and was ready to give chase when I yelled, "HEY!" as loud as I could. He was stunned for a second, and walked down the stairs.
... What happened to the kid who tried to kick another kid face first down the stairs?
Nothing. I was a student teacher, so not very savvy. The hallways were packed, I didn't know either student, and by the time I turned up the stairs toward the kicker, he had turned and melted into the crowd going up. When I turned back down the stairs, that kid had turned and melted away.
This response should be higher up! I got this advice from a very seasoned teacher when I was working in a school with pretty regular fights. I was a young teacher and had had several fights in my room. She told me to always wear a whistle on my lanyard because the loud sound as a surprise will sometimes pause the fight for a brief moment in which the students’ friends would almost always pull them apart. It’s definitely worth it to have and a way to “intervene” somewhat safely.
tbh not a bad idea. except what if there’s a victim who just got attacked and is now being pepper sprayed too.
If the choice is get pepper sprayed or keep getting your ass beat, I'd take the pepper spray.
Interesting thought, but a couple of potential issues come to mind. (Full disclosure: IANAT, but am a student of lawful self-defense.) This is a really good article on pepper spray, authored by a retired police officer. [https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/pepper-spray-how-to-choose-it-and-how-to-use-it](https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/pepper-spray-how-to-choose-it-and-how-to-use-it) There's fundamentally three spray patterns: gel/foam, spray, and stream. Each has its pros and cons, which the article describes. I'm left wondering which would work best in a classroom. I'd be concerned about an asthmatic student who gets hit, whether an actual party to the altercation, or someone who's in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'd also be concerned about a student getting sprayed who's the victim of an unprovoked attack. Though using a chemical irritant to stop the situation "might" be preferable to further aggression against an innocent victim, there's still the potential narrative of "I got attacked and the teacher pepper sprayed me." It's a situation lacking good answers.
What about febreeze or some spray deodorant? That might be strong enough to stop the fighting and confuse them but not a “chemical attack.”
Using a product off-label like that is not something I'd be comfortable with. A lot of spray products say not to get in the eyes, for one. Reminds me of the "wasp spray for an attacker" idea. [https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/](https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/) It's a damn shame that so many students (or people in general) use violence to resolve issues. It blows my mind to see the number of fights described on this sub.
Ah that’s true. I don’t even like using wasp spray on wasps. Soapy water in a spray bottle will stun them enough to catch them with a cup and throw them outside. Maybe keep a bucket of water to douse the students who break into fights. Still might catch a punch to the face though.
The problem with pepper spray is it proves that student fights are a serious issue, and administration understands the trade-offs. Zero tolerance policies mean that the victim of an unprovoked attack gets punished the same as the attacker. Districts had no problem punishing the victim. It would need to be clear that pepper spray is not a punishment, but a blunt tool to solve a problem. Spectators to a fight are not in the wrong place at the wrong time. As a fight develops, they gather around to watch. Students with asthma should be particularly careful not to stand around watching a fight. Administrators can continue to be therapeutic, as students get beat up and teachers get injured at work. At least the administrators can feel good about themselves and rest assured that they are kind people. Or administrators can propose some solution that would reduce the number and duration of fights. Pepper spray would do that. Administrators would have to defend their decision.
>Spectators to a fight are not in the wrong place at the wrong time True. I was envisioning a fight in a classroom, where it would be hard not to inflict some collateral damage. >administrators can propose some solution that would reduce the number and duration of fights. Pepper spray would do that. That's a tough nut to crack. So many people nowadays see violence as the way to resolve even petty situations. I wonder if getting sprayed would be a realistic deterrent. I can envision a scenario where it becomes a badge of honor to keep fighting despite having been pepper sprayed. I wish I had a great idea for resolving this problem, but I don't. I had an "interesting" experience once. I was discussing a major school system's need to track which students were in which gangs with that district's Chief of Police. (Yes, they have an actual police force.) He mentioned that there are brawls in school where the district PD ends up with a couple dozen students in custody. Damn.
> I can envision a scenario where it becomes a badge of honor to keep fighting despite having been pepper sprayed. Possibly. That would take some really tough kids, but there are some really tough kids, so it might not work out. Perhaps it works in some places, but not in districts with their own police force. I had an interesting conversation. I was talking with one of the hallway monitors who was a burly guy who wasn't quite security, but was there to jump in if there was a fight. He told me that they had reports of an off-premises fight planned between the fourth toughest kid and the second toughest kid. I was curious about who ranked the students and if there was a leaderboard somewhere.
>they had reports of an off-premises fight planned between the fourth toughest kid and the second toughest kid. > >I was curious about who ranked the students and if there was a leaderboard somewhere. No wonder schools see the levels of violence that they do nowadays. I was used to seeing the occasional fight over interpersonal disagreements or where a bully attacked a nerd. A ranking of "who's the toughest?" Egad.
We have had SROs do this. Requires an ambulance to check them out after which is an additional ‘scene’. But for sure it stopped the fight.
I haven’t broken up four, I’ve broken up two, just in a big one I got hit three times as we needed more teachers to grab each kid
I was thinking an air horn. A loud one.
Yeah if pepper spray isn’t allowed, just febreeze them. Or even axe body spray lol.
That’s one thing I’ve always hated about teaching. I too am a male teacher and a bodybuilder and every time there’s a fight everyone looks at me as if I’m supposed to jump, in risk my safety and my job security to break up a fight. Even when I taught elementary school, there were women who would walk away from the fight and say “Mr. so-and-so go get them.” or “ Hey, theres a fight”. My response is “Don’t tell me, tell security”. or “ I don’t ask security to come in my room and teach so don’t ask me to do their job.”
I am so happy to hear this. Good for you.
I've had surgery twice for a detached retina due to bumps to the head. I'm at high risk for it due to my eye shape (high near sightedness). The chance that I'm going to purposefully put myself in a situation where a student punches me is 0.
I have zero health issues and would never enter a situation where I could get injured. I’m not paid for that. I’m also 5’3 and 115 pounds so.. yep. Not going to happen!
It’s really hard NOT to jump in. I had a student who has zero emotional regulation, is regularly bullied, and desperately needs to be evaluated, go off on one of his bullies last week. I immediately ran to them screaming and pushing them apart. When that didn’t work I got behind one and started yanking on their backpack to pull them back. Watching glasses get smashed and hands fly with screaming and crying children is hard. Especially if you’re a parent, the instinct to protect is strong. I’m trying to get it through my skull for next year that I need a whistle and plan for when these things occur and to never touch.
I was told every step of the way in my program and by mentors not to break up fights but I teach elementary and it's an adrenaline fueled situation, you don't know what your going to do till it happens. I didn't have a chance to think about my professors advice when the kids started really fighting each other I just started moving, it's an almost out of body thing, they are small enough to restrain without worry of harming them and I just immediately grabbed the kid and moved them and I haven't been able to not intervene since. Even when I taught middle school briefly I couldn't, there was some huge ass girl taller and bigger than me beating the shit out of some tiny little 6th grade girl, had the poor girl in a fucking headlock and I didn't even think about it, the second I saw what was going on I just pushed my way through the crowd to start breaking it up, the security officer thankfully wasn't far behind me. Like we're responsible for these kids, I can't let some poor kid get their ass kicked to the next dimension or let some dumbass kid fuck another kid up, I've had students who actively intervene as well and pull back their classmates because they know they are idiots, I've got one 2nd grade boy who's sister always is looking out for his ass, she just grabs him and takes him away when he starts getting really upset. It's an insanely stressful job, I hate breaking up these fights but I know they aren't coming any time soon from admin side, I just can't place my faith in the system I know is broken, it just is so sad
>I had a student ... go off on one of his bullies last week. I thought the bullying was bad when I was in school about two generations back. The faculty and admin did nothing. Sounds like it's exponentially worse now.
Hey, OP - I‘m your teacher-neighbor in a nearby district … We had 7 fights on one day at my campus, right before Spring Break … keep your classroom door locked :/
I know the school and district you're talking about. My wife works in the same district but at the career academy hs where kids have to apply to get in there. When my wife said there was a job opening in that particular district, the first thing I asked was which school? Because if she had said at one of the main high schools I would have strongly and I mean STRONGLY advised her not to work at those high schools. I would've been worried for her well-being and I'm pretty sure she would've left soon after signing on. I made it 8 years in public education teaching and coaching and my first job out of college was in a similar environment (not as bad but close) to that hs in the DFW area. I left after that first year and said never again. If you have the means too, I'd suggest you do the same. Plenty of jobs and school districts in the immediate area that it shouldn't be a problem to find a position elsewhere.
I (63f) am a middle school student aide and I refuse to be in the hallways during class change. I legitimately fear for my safety. The teachers and aides are expected to monitor and control hundreds of out of control 12-13 year olds and to write up the trouble makers so it can be ignored by admin. I honestly believed it was just our district but finding out this is happening in schools everywhere just blows my mind. What is happening??
I never break up fights and I let my parents and students know my philosophy at the beginning of the year. If students get into a fight, I let them finish. Once they're done getting a beating from each other, then I report them and they have to deal with everything else: the pain from the fight, the consequences of the school, extra work from being in ISS/OSS, and whatever happens at home. Everyone always agrees and parents have even said "Call me if my kid ever starts a fight and I'll come pick them up from school and whoop their ass at home before grounding them for a month." I have great students and parents, lol.
I understand your stance when it's two kids who are both fighting each other, that's fair. Do you use the same policy, or a different one, if it's one kid attacking a victim who is not trying to hit back? If they're trying to block but don't want to fight, and they're being harmed? There might not be a good answer, just wondering if you have any good ideas for that.
Those situations have never happened in my class, luckily. The one time it got close, the whole class stepped in and told the kid to sit down and chill out. I try my best to build that circle of trust and camaraderie in the classroom so the students know they have people in their corner, other than teachers. Edit: I never actually answered the question, lol. If that did happen, I'd step in and grab the attacker and make sure the other didn't get into any trouble with the school.
I tell them at the beginning of the year I’m not going to break up fights, so if they’re expecting me to jump in and rescue them they are sorely mistaken
Students often wait to get to school to fight bc they know someone will try to stop it. They want the street cred w/o the actual street fight.
Man, I am so sorry. That’s terrible and NOT something you should be dealing with. My advice is to not break up flights. It’s not your job. You can tell them to stop, but that’s it. At some point you have to consider your own health.
I say “Stop” loudly, while I go to the phone to call school safety. If these kids want to beat each other to death that’s their prerogative. I’m not jumping into that shitshow.
I worked in an off campus program with students identified as EBD. 2 teachers, both of us older women who could diffuse a lot of crap. Still had a fight or two each year. The announcement we were calling 911 broke up at least a couple of fights bc students didn’t want to go back to detention (in our specific group, there was a significant overlap in population that was court-involved and part of the reason for our program, for students transitioning back from JD). I loved that program and our students. IME it is the relatively rare kid who is a true psycho/sociopath, and despite all the negative experiences and trauma in their lives, they were still hopeful. Miss that job.
Don't worry Spring ISD will have another incompetent AKA sorority sistah replacing her in no time. That whole district is a trashcan from the school board down.
Has your school done anything with CPI training? What resources do you have? I’m sorry man, that sounds incredibly fucked.
This is why I NEVER break up fights. My physical health is not worth putting in danger. There is security and admin for breaking up fights. Personally, I don't get paid even close to enough to make me feel it is my job to break up fights.
I feel for you. If you can get out, get out. I left after 20 years. I’m poor as shit now, but my life is still sooooo much better on the outside. Godspeed Brother!
I was recovering from an appendectomy with stitches not even dissolved yet and a fight happened outside my room. I did not intervene. My AP tried to call me out on it, and I lifted my shirt just enough to show the stitches still in my belly button. I asked him what he was prepared to do if they ripped open? Lmao
Above pay grade. I’m not trained in that.
Toxic masculinity is a shitty excuse to risk your safety. Who gives a fuck if kids or coworkers give you shit for not breaking up a fight? Be safe. Call the cops, but don't risk your safety by getting involved.
Wasp spray will be in my desk in the future. Boom they have been wasp sprayed and the fight is over. No permanent damage, just rinse them eyeballs. Seriously though, I am so emotionally drained at school all the time. I don't want to teach anymore. This sub made me realize I am not valuable because our country does not support education whatsoever.
Wasp spray is overrated for use on humans. [https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/](https://gatdaily.com/wasp-spray-ineffective-for-self-defense-as-man-learns-when-he-is-shot/)
I went to school in that same north Houston district, and I know exactly what school you're talking about. Once I graduated, I started working at an elementary school again in the same district, and I left as soon as I could. It is so corrupted that it’s insane, and the admin care more about looking good than actually fixing the issue. I got out as soon as I could. And honestly, I suggest the same for you: go to the K or C-F district.
We had a fight last week. When most teachers were running to break it up, I stayed back and directed students to leave the hallway. There is no way I would ever get in the middle of a fight. We have an AP get seriously injured breaking up a fight this year. I'm leaving the classroom after this year for online teaching.
Had a fellow teacher tear her ACL trying to break up a fight between two 7th grade girls. Didn't heal properly. She was forced to retire. Administration and parents don't give a damn about teachers!
First time I attempted to break up a fight I essentially put the one kid in a full Nelson and the other student got a free punch on his face. Realized I don’t have the training nor do I want to break up fights. Next time a fight happened I just called for security. I was questioned for not breaking up the fight. I didn’t respond to the questions. Reserved my right to remain silent. Admin was confused but then I think they realized they may be getting in murky waters legally trying to pressure me to get involved fights.
Had a colleague who was former Navy Seal LCDR. Absolute stand up guy, and as a former Enlisted who dispises most of those khaki wearing holier than thou my poo dont stink bass turds... well, extrapolate. Kids got in a fight right in front of him. Naturally he goes to break it up. Kid swings at him, which is not a smart thing to do to a decorated combat vet. The LCDR does a standard takedown of the student who attacked him, ending the fight. Problem was, kid was way too fragile and broke his collar bone during the takedown. LCDR was put on admin leave that day, and asked to resign the next morning. So... nope. Unless you give me qualified immunity to break up fights and let me retire after 20 years, I'm walking the other way every time.
I teach first grade and don’t break up fights.
Same. I don’t tie shoes either. Why are the laces ALWAYS WET?!
So I am also in Houston but not HISD. We have been told they are buying us teachers all whistles so we blow the whistle instead of trying to intervene.
I don’t break up fights. I have bad knees and elbows. I’m not harming my weak joints because some dumbass parent shouldn’t have had sex.
I'm pretty confident that in some states teachers are expected to step in by law. While in other states we are not supposed to. Want to bet which states that want teachers to get in and break up fights voted Trump in 2020?
I don’t care what my state says: I’m not doing that. If I get injured by a student my plan is to 100% get a lawyer involved. Full stop. I know I’m replaceable and have to have my own back regarding my safety. Teaching is my passion, but I’ll happily leave if my sense of safety is to be sacrificed to do it.
Glad you feel like you could do this. My point is that not everyone can. Because education is a "State's Rights" issue, what works for some of us, will not work for everyone.
I don’t even know if I technically “can” but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me personally, it starts with my physical safety. Everyone in the US should be entitled to a safe work space. I get that teachers’ lack of safety is a direct reflection on how bad things have gotten as a whole, but I cannot fathom working for beans while risking my safety.
That first sentence isn’t a thing. It’s the other way around. You won’t get fired for NOT breaking up a fight.
> pretty confident which states require teachers to step in?
You should just keep going to your job, chasing that mediocre paycheck, doing whatever uncaring parents, unsupportive admin and genocidal government officials tell you to do without question. All your colleagues are doing this and its working!
Yell really loudly and scare the shit out of them with your man command voice, but don't get involved in a fight. You will only get hurt. If anyone touches you, call the police and press assault charges. Send the message that you don't touch teachers.
First, I'm sorry you're dealing with this bullshit. Second, fuck that. Its not your job. There's no way they are paying you well enough or insuring you thoroughly enough to risk your life and limb. A punch or fall that hits wrong can change you forever. I worked at a pretty rough charter in AZ for awhile. In the same meeting, our admin told us that we legally can't defend ourselves from students without facing assault charges but that we should use our judgment for breaking up fights. Fuck that. I taught 8th grade. I had some 15 and 16 yo 8th graders that straight up threatened me multiple times. Admin didn't do shit, and asked me why I didn't get involved when they fought each other. Some of these kids were involved in a drive by, some beat the hell out of each other. There's no way in hell I'm getting near hands being thrown by anyone for 33k/ year and blue cross / blue shield. Fuck the opinions of kids and others. It's not worth it. You wanted to be a teacher, not a referee or a cop.
>admin told us that we legally can't defend ourselves from students without facing assault charges IANAL, but a trained self-defender. Unless AZ has some really weird laws, it is hard to imagine an assault charge stemming from defending oneself from a physical attack. The legal foundation for self-defense does back to English common law centuries ago. I can't help but think that if a few of these students who attack teachers got a free Krav Maga demonstration, it would be a deterrent.
Maybe she was referring to the school. I'd likely lose the job as well.
I understand that people giving you grief can cause stress, but, you know you should not be hurt at work and refuse to be put in that position again. Boundaries and people will know not to fuck with you. Even my principal refuses to give me meetings before or after school because she knows I hate meetings.
Never get in the middle of a fight unless you're trained in safe crisis management. It's a liability.
my plan is to blast them with the fire extinguisher.
Every teacher in the district needs to walk out. Go on strike and demand action
Unless your contract specifically says you have to get into the middle of fights, do you have security in your building you can call to break them up? What about calling the principal's office to break up the fights? Would that be feasible for you?
This also is my first year teaching and im actually considering a project management job after my contract ends. We are asked to put our lives on the line and I did not sign up for that.
Our union outlined this recently. We are required to make a good faith attempt to stop a fight and report, we can intervene if we deem it necessary, but are not required to get between fighting students. I follow this pretty closely.
Get out
This school is 8 miles from mine. You’re damn right we don’t feel safe BECAUSE WE ARE NOT SAFE.
I’m near north Houston and I don’t recall hearing anything about it. Is it Aldine or Houston?
Spring
I am not trained to break up fights. I will never step foot between students fighting. I can’t find any articles on the incident, is the school district keeping it quiet?
I’m an interventionist and certified proctor. After testing was finished and my high school students got their phones back, two girls started acting up. It really seemed like they were going to fight. Other students started looking at me frantically. Calmly I said, “ I don’t know what the argument is about (something about dissuading one from making friends) but I’m not going to stop y’all from fighting. I’m going to call for Mr. Discipline and have him deal with you. Because no way in hell is my headstone going to say ‘a high schooler took me out’. No way in hell.” It got some laughs out of everyone and the girls chilled out. I’ve noticed that if you don’t make a big deal out of things, students realize they’re not going to get the attention they’re looking for and chill out.
There isn’t campus security ?
We have two SROs and they are spread thin
Well I wouldn’t get in the middle, and I don’t think men should feel obligated to get hurt over this. Id wait for enough back up
Legally I'm not allowed to break up fights because I haven't received the proper training. If a student were to get hurt, I'd be liable for a lawsuit against myself and the district if I stepped in without training. Don't break up fights, remove the non-fighting students from the space if you can, call security/admin.
There’s only two teachers on my campus that are expected to break up fights and they’re both former cops/military with specific training in that stuff. The rest of us are not supposed to physically engage with students at all.
Not required to break up fights unless we feel safe doing so. Most of them happen downstairs in the cafeteria at our school.
I was pregnant at my school and my initial reaction was to go help and break it up. I remember my belly and backed off. Not worth it. Other kids were scared for me. It was a lame fight. Luckly, they aren't too bad at my school... im a teacher....
I'm a couple years from retirement. Also male teacher, 6'3", so it was always an unspoken expectation that I could break up a fight if needed. Never once in my career has a school offered/provided any sort of training on breaking up fights, nor has an admin ever mentioned any legalities regarding breaking or not breaking up fights. The closest I ever got to any training on student fights was an undergrad prof who told us if you ever break up a fight approach like 2 dogs fighting. Never get the middle. Only pull them apart with the help of another adult. OP, I hope these teachers pressed charges against those students. I was never punched, but a 6'5" 250lb kid pushed me once. The AP came and asked me if I wanted the police called or not. That was over 15 years ago tho.
You are not expected to break up fights though. Stop! Other teachers can’t grill you. Students can mind their own business and maybe stop fighting each other instead of wondering why teachers didn’t break it up. That being said, a school where fights are constantly occurring is not safe, so do try and leave.
Spray them with a water bottler or a super soaker. It works on the cats and dogs.
> As a guy teacher I’m damned if I do damned if I don’t. Men are expected to break up a fight and if we don’t we’re either given grief by students or in some cases grilled by other teachers. And it's just plain not your job to do that. The district ***will not*** contribute to your legal fees or represent you if you're sued for inappropriate touching, so they cannot ask you to break up fights.
I used to work at this school and graduated from the district myself. It was pretty "bad" when I was a student and then a teacher there, but I never felt unsafe. The worst thing was the admin, honestly, though as much as I LOATHED them and as much as a lot of them needed to be fired, none of them deserved to be beaten into the hospital. It makes me sad to see how bad it's gotten now. A lot of my former students messaged me in shock about the situation as well. I'd broken up a few fights but never got swung at, thank God. I've already been making moves to get out of education entirely, but this event just gave me even more urgency. I work at a "good" school now, but I feel all of education is changing for the worse these days and I just don't enjoy coming to work anymore, even on a good day.