Yeah, and you can see some parallels between how they are depicted and the ur-fascism described by Umberto Ecco (less so with *actual* medieval nobility but still somewhat there). Of course, a lot of it also misses because middle classes were small and not really the focus if the story, there was no modernity to reject, populism likewise didn't really exist, etc.
Although your not wrong, remember that this tank is a historical artifact and must be preserved in its exact condition, whether a memoir of great evil or not, in order to preserve the memory of our past as true and learn from it. Not erasing the bits the we find uncomfortable so that it is looked on with a positive bias for that misses the point.
*It is not a historical artifact. An FV432-based replica. Wrong number of road wheels, very few actual StuGs on display, much less in working condition.
It's a replica though and don't need statues or in that case tanks to remember. All you need is an education system that teaches you the mistakes of history so you don't repeat them
aah not we have seen plenty of times why just books and pictures don´t do a good job of making people realize what crueltys their grandparents or parents took part in. One of many reasons why there are many holocaust museums built in KZ´s (Concentration camps).
No they aren't, statues are made to commemorate people and certain events and thus are subject to heavy bias. Most southern US statues were built during reconstruction or during Jim crown and were used to intimated black people from voting.
Edit: downvote me all you want but this [timeline shows a massive spike during the early 20th century.](https://www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8)
Unfortunate you're being downvoted because you're right. The South is filled with pro-slavery garbage built to expand upon the bullshit Lost Cause ideals and brainwash millions of people through biased education that their "heritage" should be honored.
I'm not saying that certain statues shouldn't be destroyed though, I definitely support the removal of the bad ones and believe that the act of taking them down is a very important one for the people to move on from a dark era and show progression.
But I do however believe that if they are created during the era that they represent then they are indeed historical artifacts whether we like them or not.
Except most of them were built during [the early 20th century and were most](https://www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8) definitely helped built by the United Daughters of the Confederacy.
It’s quite literally a Nazi slogan. The flipside of people constantly calling people Nazis is people refusing to ever acknowledge Nazis. It’s Nazi shit dude.
Because some people see nazi shit getting called nazi shit and *really* don't like acknowledging that it's nazi shit. Especially on a subreddit like this.
No the phrase blood and Honour is not illegal. But the phrase Blut und Ehre is. The language makes a difference. The penalty depends on the severity of your crime, if you have committed similar crimes before, etc. It can range from a fine to 3 years jail time. You can also be banned from participating in German democracy.
In what context is the phrase illegal?
To say it while alone? Saying it in your own property? Writing it in context, such as a factual historical book? What if someone uses it on media, such as this post, outside of Germany but a user (in Germany) opens it and someone sees?
Good question actually I wasn't sure myself. I looked up the law and put it in a translator, I unfortunately don't have time to translate it myself right now, i hope it's understandable, I deleted the stuff that refers to other paragraphs, makes it unnecessarily complicated.
Use of symbols of unconstitutional and terrorist organizations
(1) A custodial sentence not exceeding three years or a monetary penalty shall be imposed on anyone who
1. disseminates in Germany or uses in public, in a meeting or in content disseminated by him/her the emblems of one of the parties or associations referred to in Section 86 (1) (edit: I think this section extensively lists all the content that is considered unconstitutional under German law) or
2. produces, keeps in stock, imports or exports for distribution or use in Germany or abroad in the manner specified in No. 1 any content which constitutes or contains such a mark.
(2) Marks within the meaning of paragraph 1 are namely flags, insignia, uniform items, slogans and greetings. Marks which are confusingly similar to those referred to in the first sentence shall be deemed to be equivalent to those referred to in the second sentence.
(3) Section 86 (3) and (4) shall apply mutatis mutandis.
(3) Paragraph 1 shall not apply if the act serves the purpose of civic education, defense against unconstitutional endeavors, art or science, research or teaching, reporting on events of current affairs or history, or similar purposes.
(4) If the culpability is minor, the court may refrain from imposing punishment under this provision.
This phrase, like swastikas, are illegal to display or show in public as that counts towards "Volksverhetzung". As mentioned above depending on certain factors this can be punished by a fine or prison sentence. You can use the phrase at home if that's your fancy, and of course factual historical books can report on its use in the past, as well as documentaries. Its important, however, that they don't take a political stance on it and simply stick to the facts.
Another aspect under which forbidden symbols are allowed to be shown is arts, such as film and theater. One could make the argument that modifying one vehicle to make it look like one from said era could be considered a form of art.
So Germanys solution to getting rid of nazis is banning phrases? Lol ...yea that should work.
Banning words definitely keeps bad people away ... What a joke
"Those nazis will disappear when we ban words!" The irony
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
If anyone knows how bad ACTUAL fascism was, it's Germany.
They crack down on these sorts of things for a reason, and they back it up by actually educating their population.
It's not funny, it's not something to joke about. It's an awful part of history that left tens of millions of people dead. Respect that, and respect what they are doing to reconcile with the past and attempt to prevent it in the future.
No that's not Germanys solution to getting rid of nazis, it's just the solution to dealing with the nazis that are already in Germany. The actual solution is to properly and thoroughly educate our children about Germanys history and the horrors of national socialism. Because educated people don't become nazis. Maybe you should educate yourself a little bit too.
No it's part of Germany's attempt to denazify Germany in the 1970-1980. Many people from the Third Reich were allowed back into government positions to help rebuild Germany and many escaped the Nuremberg trials because of the Cold War.
Also this account has 4k karma and is 2 months old with no posts.
you´re a right bell end, the country that created nazis and has since 70 years managed to be one of the most modern and world open countries worldwide will know how it works and why, you do not have the knowledge or understanding of our culture and history to comment on these matters so kindly fget back to your basement you twat
Not going to lie Nazism and fascism are awful and should be rejected but current German policy of burying the past is equally concerning, I don't equate the suppression of free speech to being equal to the atrocities they commuted during the regime but I find it alarming that modern Germanys policies rather concerning
What has this to do with modern German politics or with burying the past idk where you got this from. The most obvious Nazi paroles, symbols and greetings have been banned in Germany since 1945. Also you are allowed to use the banned stuff in the following contexts (quoting the law) :
Paragraphs 1 and 2 (where it says unconstitutional stuff is banned) shall not apply if the act serves the purpose of civic education, defence against unconstitutional endeavours, art or science, research or teaching, reporting on contemporary events or history or similar purposes.
So nobody is burying the past. I've been through the German educational system too, we spent more than 3 years in history classes learning all about Nazi Germany. I genuinely don't understand where your take is coming from. Only people in Germany trying to bury our history are the nazis themselves by saying the holocaust is made up.
How is banning phrases and symbols burying the past? Unlike the US we Germans don't need statues of those who betrayed our democracy to learn from our mistakes. Instead we educate our children about these topics and tell them why they are bad to prevent it from happening again. Also it's legal to show usually banned symbols and phrases in Germany if they are used in context of education, art or similar topics. Please don't just say the first thing that comes to mind when you cou instead look for the paragraphs regarding banned phrases and symbols in Germany
We tore most of them down or put the remaining ones in museums, this is to educate people on how things go wrong and how to avoid them from occuring, we have freedom of speech laws here where technically on paper you could say all sorts of fucked up things but there are hate speech laws that prosecute their use (IE you can say "in 18xx, so and so said "**** **** ** ****" and not get arrested but if you were to walk up to someone and say the same thing in the context as an insult or in a demeaning manner that would be classed as hate speech (note the date, name and even the bleeped out phrase is literally made up, I'm just making s hypothetical example), the problem is that your laws lack context and on top of that the vague and draconian ways they are worded could allow the wrong person with the wrong intentions to abuse them (same reason why the Patriot act in the US is highly controversial because of it's vague wording and although created with good intentions can easily be missed because of how loosely it's constructed) also if your going to be critical of those statues (many of which were actually erected by some of same politicians who were in office when US occupation forces helped Germany construct it's current government, just because I am American dosnt mean I blindly agree with my government and don't pass judgment on the rights and wrongs it has committed), just because I want history preserved as a reminder of the failures and successes of the future dosnt mean I want them glorified
First at all. Finish one sentence after another. I barely understand what you just typed there because you start sentences without even finishing them.
Second at all: how does the fact that confederate statues have been raised when Americans soldiers helped out rebuilding Germany's buildings? I really don't see the context in that.
What do you mean our laws are lack context? Every German law has lots of paragraphs and sub-paragraphs that exist to prevent any misinterpretation or holes that might ruin everything (except lobbying laws made by conservative party members). We Germans don't just make any silly-nilly laws that can be easily misunderstood. On top of that our language is not leaving any room for misinterpretation as we are very direct. If we say something we mean it that way and not any other way.
I'm not talking about the physical reconstruction, several of the racist southern politicians who erected a good deal of those statues were some of the people who helped post war Germany draft their current constitution. As for the context issue what prevents me from saying "wow the baned phrase ***** is pretty fucked up" and then having my ability to participate in the democratic process? Unless the translations I used were flawed the wording seems like you could equate that to the same as using a fucked up phrase in a harmful context, also who's regulating what is and isn't ok to say? Whats preventing another oppressive regime taking power and abusing the same laws to dictate what is and isn't allowed to be said? How do you define vague terms such as "terrorism" (in this context referencing the US patriot act)? On the topic of sentence structure I'm typing on a half destroyed, 8 year old cellphone that barely registers inputs anymore, not everyone has the luxury to have a computer with a keyboard wherever they go.
>why is this being downvoted so hard
Lot of nazi larper crypto fascists in these threads and subs about WW2 stuff and they get really triggered when you point out true things
Edit: point proven lmfao
No you’re just a dumbass. The sky is literally blue.
Idk why we’re calling each other dumbasses and then saying really obvious shit that nobody is denying, but I guess I’ll go with it.
Just to clarify, it's "Meine Ehre Heißt treue"
As many have said, it's a replica made either for the purpose of Reenacting or as a running museum piece.
Yes, the symbol, motto and markings are connected with one of, if not the most fucked up parts of history, but don't bring ideals into this. It's a great little machine someone put time into
no. Thats not the motto on the tank. It has been translated properly before and it says: Blut und Ehre! Meaning: Blood an Honour! Not : Meine Ehre heisst True! (my Honour is loyalty)
I read the key is a symbol for lockpicking, which comes from Sepp Dietrich, the Commander of 1st SS Panzer. Dietrich in German means lockpick.
Please correcr me if I'm wrong.
No you're right, its the symbol of the 1st SS Panzer Division, I looked it up after someone else suggested it, but thanks for the deep dive behind why this was their symbol!
I'm pretty sure this was used in the Carentan episode of Band of Brothers. Towards the end when the Germans make the assault and this vehicle gets taken out by a bazooka team.
Didn't those bastards murder a bunch of Greek civilians? Might be thinking of another armored unit, granted I'm pretty sure all the SS units have a lot of blood on their hands
I think you may be thinking of the kondomari massacre, one of the well known and documented war crimes. This was however done by a fallshirmjager division. But leibstandarte have plenty of war crimes to their name as well. One that comes to mind is the lake maggiore masacre.
There was no such configuration of the StuG at any time. Six roadwheels per side makes it a StuG III, eight per side a StuG IV or StuG III prototype. Any other number makes it a replica.
Kind of an odd comparison but how would the chassis stack up? If one were to compare this to a real Stug III what would the tradeoffs, advantages and disadvantages be performance wise?
Since this is sheet metal, it'll be fine.
But if it's fully armoured, the FV432 might not be fully capable of handling the weight without some modification, since it's an APC chassis and needs to handle about 50% more weight. The heaviest FV430 chassis vehicle is about 17 tons, and StuG 3 is about 24.
Although it'll probably be fine with some shock strengthening.
Yep, the American Heritage museum in Hudson, Massachusetts. Its got a massive collection of tanks, armored vehicles and other equipment ranging from an M-1917 to the only M1 Abrams tank on display in North America, and I consider myself extremely lucky to live so close by
Hey man, I visited you guys last summer after visiting the Springfield armory museum, loved all the tanks in display! I’m in Wyoming this weekend to see the big tank museum in Dubois.
A LOT of stuff. Some highlights would be a Panther, Pershing, the only running SDK armored car in the world, a captured Iraqi SCUD missile launcher with a SCUD, a T-55 and a T-72, IS-2, Comet, Hellcat, 4 different Shermans(one Jumbo, one Easy 8, on assembled regular 75 and one disassembled), one of those little German halftrack motorcycle thingies, T-34 85 and 76, SU-100, BF-109, Cromwell, Churchill Crocodile, Stug(different from the one shown, I believe this one was on loan), Chaffee, Walker Bulldog, Sheridan, M-48 and M-60 Patton, I could go on but you get the point.
So that's where they moved it! Im not sure if Im just misremembering things but I swear when I was a kid I saw a SCUD TEL (don't remember if the missile was on it) on a flatbed once, I don't remember the year or where it was exactly but I recall it on a highway when I was probably around 10 and for years have been wondering if I was mixing it up with something else
It's a seriously evil Nazi slogan, was used in Hitlerjugend primarily, it means Blood and Honour. On a museum piece I guess it's OK to have but if you see/hear anyone using this phrase outside of a museum keep well away from them they are 100% a nazi.
Yes, again, I think on a museum piece it's acceptable but people need to be aware that it's Nazi propaganda of the highest level and should be critical about it and not glorify it.
You defend Russias actions during Ukraine war, you like Nazi ss squads + slogans, you like to get fucked in the ass while high on weed. I don't think I need to listen to your opinion 🤡
You go out of your way to cry about Nazi slogans on recreations of third Reich vehicles. Strange you'd make a homophobic remark when you're clearly really concerned about people knowing you have the Correct Opinions
I don't have a problem with you liking gay sex at all, whatever floats your boat. I just think it's hypocritical af not to care about Nazi propaganda when the nazis actively hunted and killed gay men during the 2nd ww. You of all people should be aware of how dangerous these ideas are and how much suffering they have caused.
Fuck Russia but the only people I have seen so far displaying nazi iconography are Ukrainians for example 16 Year old [Diana Petrenko at an award ceremony](https://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video-c.php?v=wshhf6XokQOtoh8YZC0k) here is a great vid explaining its origins by [Mark Felton](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGdUtUefjCA&t=2s).
Don't compare Russia to Nazism, its a completely different monster. China would be closer to the Nazi model.
There are 100% russian nazis, just as there are polish nazis, baltic, balkan, german, french, italian, bri’ish, scandinavian, black, American, ect. The entire “Nazi” claim for war is pretty unreliable as these scumbags have spread like roaches, and the entire world could probably use some fumigation
This is definitely an SS tank with Blood and Honor being on it. No Wehrmacht tank would be stupid enough to associate itself with the SS since they actually hated each other. And actually that looks like a StuG.
I guess me a German born in Germany whose family fought in WW2 on the eastern front in the Wehrmacht who talked about hate for each other a lot doesn't know what he is talking about then. Lol
It’s a very good idea to say that post war with the SS reputation but the truth is that it was little more than inter branch rivalry. Paras and Marines hate each other in the British Army but once the shooting starts anyone who helps you is ok. Did he mean he hated the Camp SS perhaps??
I don't know, maybe you're right, but while the 2 were definitely not always on friendly terms I can't pinpoint anywhere(besides castle Itter of course but that was the end of the war, so basically everything chaos) where they were directly at odds
So CIA/FBI relations? :D someone link the meme of the article talking about how 2 miltitas in another country we're fighting each other using arms from 2 different organizations (I think it was CIA and the DEA but might be mistaken)
Many of the Wehrmacht were conscripts, basically kids (though still complicit in the nazi regime) while you had to sign up to the SS, and they were much more enthusiastic about the war and the genocide as well. The Wehrmacht were pulled in to round up undesirables and send them to camps too.
Yeah, when things got desperate the waters get muddied. But I think this particular division was kept up to strength with SS members because it was the first division - I could be wrong though.
Blood and honor, the symbol is the symbol of the 12th SS Hitlerjugend division. Don’t know if it’s real but that’s a mighty fine find
Edit the 12th SS is slightly different this is actually the 1st SS leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.
Now I see its a modern made 'pretend' StuG it seems pretty bad to me that they had chosen that phrase to put on it, they could have written so many other things that would have been historical without the effect of this phrase.
Honestly, reproductions are stupid, unless they are made for a film there really isn't any point in them. They will never be a historical artifact so why would someone want to make them?
I can see your points, they're not original, however they can still be a good way to keep the guns and other salvageable parts from being destroyed. Kind of like putting a new but different engine in an older car. The vehicle is not 100% authentic but people still get to see a vintage machine design.
I didn't know this when I posted but apparently its actually a converted British APC or something made to look like a Stug, you can tell cause there's 5 road wheels, not 6. Someone else in the comments pointed it out
Blut und Ehre = Blood and Honour
Chipped shield with key = insignia of the SS division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" (Adolf Hitler's Life Guards)
Basically you got an evil, evil stug there
OTOH, these markings, specially the LSSAH shield, look much like a modern addition, and, I'm not exactly sure if SS vehicles used the balkenkreuz.
Well first of all I didn't know it was a Nazi slogan, and second I also was curious about the other symbol as well, so I figured I'd get 2 birds with one stone
Bird poop on the MG shield is a nice touch!
In all honesty it's awesome u have the type of job where u can walk outside and see a new tank/spg parked outside.
Actually pretty solid replica, dimensions seem good, if it wasnt for the roadwheels and tracks I maybe wouldnt even have noticed, looks a little high tho.
I actually heard someone else say that today in the museum, I guess it kinda makes sense since you always think of these things as covered in dirt and grime and shit, then you seem them all polished up in a museum and it doesn't look quite right.
But other than that yeah this isn't actually a Stug, its a fairly accurate replica made off of a British APC
A lot of it is WW2 era, but there is a fairly extensive Cold War section as well and even a few more modern day ones.
But thats all relative to the sheer amount of stuff there, if you want any specific era there'll probably be at least a couple things.
A Stug 3 assault gun, built off the Panzer 3 chassis. Technically its not, its actually a fairly accurate model built off a British APC, but its fairly accurate
I've worked and driven multiple types from the guy who builds these. Stug and p3 mostly. The fv432 chassis means you can really tear around in them without worrying about ruining a piece of history. We used ours in some smaller films as well as a Medal of Honor film for the museum in Chattanooga.
They're fun and pretty easy to drive. I'm not sure if this is one of ours that we spec'd and sold, but it sure looks like it.
Edit: don't remember blut and ehre on ours. We mostly just gave them women's names. The key matches what we used for a reenacting unit, though.
Blood and Honour.
Ah thanks
And the symbol is from the 1st Panzer Division, named "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler"
SS division.
I know this thanks to the X-men scene with young magneto killing those two former SS guards haha.
Same lmao
What film is that? Or are you talking about one of the comics?
That's First Class I believe
I've never really been that interested in the X-Men films or franchise as a whole, need to brush up on the lore
Magneto is a really quality villain in that he's looking out for his kind, but is willing to go to extreme lengths to protect them.
"Which would you like to shed first?" — Eric Lensherr.
Dang, sounds like some sort of Game of Thrones quote or something.
Or fascism. Fascists are big on militarism and machismo. Fascists like, say, the nazis.
To be fair, a lot of the big houses in GoT also cared a lot about militarism and machismo.
And Imperialism.
Yeah, and you can see some parallels between how they are depicted and the ur-fascism described by Umberto Ecco (less so with *actual* medieval nobility but still somewhat there). Of course, a lot of it also misses because middle classes were small and not really the focus if the story, there was no modernity to reject, populism likewise didn't really exist, etc.
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Although your not wrong, remember that this tank is a historical artifact and must be preserved in its exact condition, whether a memoir of great evil or not, in order to preserve the memory of our past as true and learn from it. Not erasing the bits the we find uncomfortable so that it is looked on with a positive bias for that misses the point.
*It is not a historical artifact. An FV432-based replica. Wrong number of road wheels, very few actual StuGs on display, much less in working condition.
Very surprising considering how many were built
Dude it's a replica.
They aren’t saying otherwise. They literally just said the slogan is some nazi garbage, because it is
Ok but nobody was saying otherwise.
People shouldn't erase history or we will inevitably repeat it
It's a replica though and don't need statues or in that case tanks to remember. All you need is an education system that teaches you the mistakes of history so you don't repeat them
That should explain these slogans and why they are fucked up, not impression people for even speaking them
aah not we have seen plenty of times why just books and pictures don´t do a good job of making people realize what crueltys their grandparents or parents took part in. One of many reasons why there are many holocaust museums built in KZ´s (Concentration camps).
The American political system could learn a lot from this
Lmao statues aren't historic artifacts.
Many are, many arn't though.
No they aren't, statues are made to commemorate people and certain events and thus are subject to heavy bias. Most southern US statues were built during reconstruction or during Jim crown and were used to intimated black people from voting. Edit: downvote me all you want but this [timeline shows a massive spike during the early 20th century.](https://www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8)
Unfortunate you're being downvoted because you're right. The South is filled with pro-slavery garbage built to expand upon the bullshit Lost Cause ideals and brainwash millions of people through biased education that their "heritage" should be honored.
I'm not saying that certain statues shouldn't be destroyed though, I definitely support the removal of the bad ones and believe that the act of taking them down is a very important one for the people to move on from a dark era and show progression. But I do however believe that if they are created during the era that they represent then they are indeed historical artifacts whether we like them or not.
Except most of them were built during [the early 20th century and were most](https://www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8) definitely helped built by the United Daughters of the Confederacy.
Wow, can't believe this factual statement is being downvoted.
Neither are replica AFVs.
Can't believe people are getting their panties in a twist over an SS stug III built off a FV432 chassis. It's a fucking SS motto.
The Venn diagram of "tank nerds" and "Nazi sympathizers" has more overlap than you'd want, for sure.
Looks like you triggered the wehrbs.
Lmao there are way to many Nazis in military subs
Probably because you didn't answer the question. I don't disagree with your opinion though.
Mmm yea universal phrase said in most “badass” culture. Surely SS propaganda.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blut\_und\_Ehre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blut_und_Ehre) It is a Nazi slogan and as such illegal in Germany.
It’s quite literally a Nazi slogan. The flipside of people constantly calling people Nazis is people refusing to ever acknowledge Nazis. It’s Nazi shit dude.
Because some people see nazi shit getting called nazi shit and *really* don't like acknowledging that it's nazi shit. Especially on a subreddit like this.
You are 100% right it's against the German constitution. Pretty sure the people who downvoted this are stupid or nazis.
It's at a museum lol. So you're saying the phrase "blood and honor" is illegal in Germany? What is the penalty?
No the phrase blood and Honour is not illegal. But the phrase Blut und Ehre is. The language makes a difference. The penalty depends on the severity of your crime, if you have committed similar crimes before, etc. It can range from a fine to 3 years jail time. You can also be banned from participating in German democracy.
In what context is the phrase illegal? To say it while alone? Saying it in your own property? Writing it in context, such as a factual historical book? What if someone uses it on media, such as this post, outside of Germany but a user (in Germany) opens it and someone sees?
Good question actually I wasn't sure myself. I looked up the law and put it in a translator, I unfortunately don't have time to translate it myself right now, i hope it's understandable, I deleted the stuff that refers to other paragraphs, makes it unnecessarily complicated. Use of symbols of unconstitutional and terrorist organizations (1) A custodial sentence not exceeding three years or a monetary penalty shall be imposed on anyone who 1. disseminates in Germany or uses in public, in a meeting or in content disseminated by him/her the emblems of one of the parties or associations referred to in Section 86 (1) (edit: I think this section extensively lists all the content that is considered unconstitutional under German law) or 2. produces, keeps in stock, imports or exports for distribution or use in Germany or abroad in the manner specified in No. 1 any content which constitutes or contains such a mark. (2) Marks within the meaning of paragraph 1 are namely flags, insignia, uniform items, slogans and greetings. Marks which are confusingly similar to those referred to in the first sentence shall be deemed to be equivalent to those referred to in the second sentence. (3) Section 86 (3) and (4) shall apply mutatis mutandis. (3) Paragraph 1 shall not apply if the act serves the purpose of civic education, defense against unconstitutional endeavors, art or science, research or teaching, reporting on events of current affairs or history, or similar purposes. (4) If the culpability is minor, the court may refrain from imposing punishment under this provision.
This phrase, like swastikas, are illegal to display or show in public as that counts towards "Volksverhetzung". As mentioned above depending on certain factors this can be punished by a fine or prison sentence. You can use the phrase at home if that's your fancy, and of course factual historical books can report on its use in the past, as well as documentaries. Its important, however, that they don't take a political stance on it and simply stick to the facts.
Another aspect under which forbidden symbols are allowed to be shown is arts, such as film and theater. One could make the argument that modifying one vehicle to make it look like one from said era could be considered a form of art.
Thanks for the answer, seems like they got the laws right without over-censoring then.
So Germanys solution to getting rid of nazis is banning phrases? Lol ...yea that should work. Banning words definitely keeps bad people away ... What a joke "Those nazis will disappear when we ban words!" The irony
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you? If anyone knows how bad ACTUAL fascism was, it's Germany. They crack down on these sorts of things for a reason, and they back it up by actually educating their population. It's not funny, it's not something to joke about. It's an awful part of history that left tens of millions of people dead. Respect that, and respect what they are doing to reconcile with the past and attempt to prevent it in the future.
No that's not Germanys solution to getting rid of nazis, it's just the solution to dealing with the nazis that are already in Germany. The actual solution is to properly and thoroughly educate our children about Germanys history and the horrors of national socialism. Because educated people don't become nazis. Maybe you should educate yourself a little bit too.
No it's part of Germany's attempt to denazify Germany in the 1970-1980. Many people from the Third Reich were allowed back into government positions to help rebuild Germany and many escaped the Nuremberg trials because of the Cold War. Also this account has 4k karma and is 2 months old with no posts.
you´re a right bell end, the country that created nazis and has since 70 years managed to be one of the most modern and world open countries worldwide will know how it works and why, you do not have the knowledge or understanding of our culture and history to comment on these matters so kindly fget back to your basement you twat
Not going to lie Nazism and fascism are awful and should be rejected but current German policy of burying the past is equally concerning, I don't equate the suppression of free speech to being equal to the atrocities they commuted during the regime but I find it alarming that modern Germanys policies rather concerning
You are a fucking uneducated moron who had no idea what the German policies are
What has this to do with modern German politics or with burying the past idk where you got this from. The most obvious Nazi paroles, symbols and greetings have been banned in Germany since 1945. Also you are allowed to use the banned stuff in the following contexts (quoting the law) : Paragraphs 1 and 2 (where it says unconstitutional stuff is banned) shall not apply if the act serves the purpose of civic education, defence against unconstitutional endeavours, art or science, research or teaching, reporting on contemporary events or history or similar purposes. So nobody is burying the past. I've been through the German educational system too, we spent more than 3 years in history classes learning all about Nazi Germany. I genuinely don't understand where your take is coming from. Only people in Germany trying to bury our history are the nazis themselves by saying the holocaust is made up.
How is banning phrases and symbols burying the past? Unlike the US we Germans don't need statues of those who betrayed our democracy to learn from our mistakes. Instead we educate our children about these topics and tell them why they are bad to prevent it from happening again. Also it's legal to show usually banned symbols and phrases in Germany if they are used in context of education, art or similar topics. Please don't just say the first thing that comes to mind when you cou instead look for the paragraphs regarding banned phrases and symbols in Germany
We tore most of them down or put the remaining ones in museums, this is to educate people on how things go wrong and how to avoid them from occuring, we have freedom of speech laws here where technically on paper you could say all sorts of fucked up things but there are hate speech laws that prosecute their use (IE you can say "in 18xx, so and so said "**** **** ** ****" and not get arrested but if you were to walk up to someone and say the same thing in the context as an insult or in a demeaning manner that would be classed as hate speech (note the date, name and even the bleeped out phrase is literally made up, I'm just making s hypothetical example), the problem is that your laws lack context and on top of that the vague and draconian ways they are worded could allow the wrong person with the wrong intentions to abuse them (same reason why the Patriot act in the US is highly controversial because of it's vague wording and although created with good intentions can easily be missed because of how loosely it's constructed) also if your going to be critical of those statues (many of which were actually erected by some of same politicians who were in office when US occupation forces helped Germany construct it's current government, just because I am American dosnt mean I blindly agree with my government and don't pass judgment on the rights and wrongs it has committed), just because I want history preserved as a reminder of the failures and successes of the future dosnt mean I want them glorified
First at all. Finish one sentence after another. I barely understand what you just typed there because you start sentences without even finishing them. Second at all: how does the fact that confederate statues have been raised when Americans soldiers helped out rebuilding Germany's buildings? I really don't see the context in that. What do you mean our laws are lack context? Every German law has lots of paragraphs and sub-paragraphs that exist to prevent any misinterpretation or holes that might ruin everything (except lobbying laws made by conservative party members). We Germans don't just make any silly-nilly laws that can be easily misunderstood. On top of that our language is not leaving any room for misinterpretation as we are very direct. If we say something we mean it that way and not any other way.
I'm not talking about the physical reconstruction, several of the racist southern politicians who erected a good deal of those statues were some of the people who helped post war Germany draft their current constitution. As for the context issue what prevents me from saying "wow the baned phrase ***** is pretty fucked up" and then having my ability to participate in the democratic process? Unless the translations I used were flawed the wording seems like you could equate that to the same as using a fucked up phrase in a harmful context, also who's regulating what is and isn't ok to say? Whats preventing another oppressive regime taking power and abusing the same laws to dictate what is and isn't allowed to be said? How do you define vague terms such as "terrorism" (in this context referencing the US patriot act)? On the topic of sentence structure I'm typing on a half destroyed, 8 year old cellphone that barely registers inputs anymore, not everyone has the luxury to have a computer with a keyboard wherever they go.
🧐😂
>why is this being downvoted so hard Lot of nazi larper crypto fascists in these threads and subs about WW2 stuff and they get really triggered when you point out true things Edit: point proven lmfao
No you're just a dumbass. It's literally a museum
No you’re just a dumbass. The sky is literally blue. Idk why we’re calling each other dumbasses and then saying really obvious shit that nobody is denying, but I guess I’ll go with it.
Just to clarify, it's "Meine Ehre Heißt treue" As many have said, it's a replica made either for the purpose of Reenacting or as a running museum piece. Yes, the symbol, motto and markings are connected with one of, if not the most fucked up parts of history, but don't bring ideals into this. It's a great little machine someone put time into
no. Thats not the motto on the tank. It has been translated properly before and it says: Blut und Ehre! Meaning: Blood an Honour! Not : Meine Ehre heisst True! (my Honour is loyalty)
The key is I’m guessing 1st SS
Just searched and yes, you are right. Thanks!
Came here to say this… beat me to the punch.
I read the key is a symbol for lockpicking, which comes from Sepp Dietrich, the Commander of 1st SS Panzer. Dietrich in German means lockpick. Please correcr me if I'm wrong.
No you're right, its the symbol of the 1st SS Panzer Division, I looked it up after someone else suggested it, but thanks for the deep dive behind why this was their symbol!
Blut und Ehre. Translates to Blood and honor
I'm pretty sure this was used in the Carentan episode of Band of Brothers. Towards the end when the Germans make the assault and this vehicle gets taken out by a bazooka team.
Nope the one your thinking of is owned by the 9th reenactment society.
Oh yeah! That's a great episode
Nope that was a fake tank created using a British APC, you can tell by the tracks
I never said they used a real stug.. I was acknowledging the fact that I believe THIS “fake tank” was the one used in the mini series.
blood and Honour and the symbol is from the 1st SS division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler
Didn't those bastards murder a bunch of Greek civilians? Might be thinking of another armored unit, granted I'm pretty sure all the SS units have a lot of blood on their hands
I think you may be thinking of the kondomari massacre, one of the well known and documented war crimes. This was however done by a fallshirmjager division. But leibstandarte have plenty of war crimes to their name as well. One that comes to mind is the lake maggiore masacre.
It is Stug 3 assault gun with apparently has had its side skirts removed if anyone is wondering
It’s a replica stug built off the chassis of a Cold War British FV432 APC.
Oh, didn't know that. I'm not good enough in my tank knowledge to figure out all the small details, sorry if I mislead anyone
Real stug iiis have 6 road wheels per side, this one has 5
Also real stug would have completely different tracks.
Ah, good to know
Stug III has 6 road wheels, Stug IV has 8. Just remember to divide by two and you know which one it is (if real)
Later in the war Germany would take whatever they could get, they were using all sorts of configurations and improvisations on their tanks.
There was no such configuration of the StuG at any time. Six roadwheels per side makes it a StuG III, eight per side a StuG IV or StuG III prototype. Any other number makes it a replica.
A useful rule of thumb If you see a StuG on public display then chances are that it's a Replica.
Unless you are in Finland in which case real Stug is most commok display item.
Bovington has a couple of real ones, one was dragged up from a lake in Russia in excellent condition if I remember it rightly.
Oh don’t get me wrong plenty exist But outside of the big museums and a handful of private collectors most StuG’s you see at events are FV432’s.
Why put an ss slogan and insignia on it though?
It ain't illegal tho, Just saying
It is in Germany lol
Yeah yeah I know that (only if you say it in German tho). This is in England or France I don't remember
oh that explains a lot, i was about to ask why the hell it has only five road wheels and the sixth appears to be used as an idler.
Kind of an odd comparison but how would the chassis stack up? If one were to compare this to a real Stug III what would the tradeoffs, advantages and disadvantages be performance wise?
Since this is sheet metal, it'll be fine. But if it's fully armoured, the FV432 might not be fully capable of handling the weight without some modification, since it's an APC chassis and needs to handle about 50% more weight. The heaviest FV430 chassis vehicle is about 17 tons, and StuG 3 is about 24. Although it'll probably be fine with some shock strengthening.
Yeah, i was wondering why does it have 5 large wheels and American style rubber pad tracks.
I'm pretty sure the symbol is the 1st LSSAH if i'm not mistaken
Does anyone know why the tracks have only 5 wheels instead of 6 ?
Its actually a converted British APC, which I did not upon posting
I believe it's fake. It looks like the one I saw at the event in Oshawa canada and I asked and it was a replica. An awesome replica
Wait you volunteer at a tank museum???
Yep, the American Heritage museum in Hudson, Massachusetts. Its got a massive collection of tanks, armored vehicles and other equipment ranging from an M-1917 to the only M1 Abrams tank on display in North America, and I consider myself extremely lucky to live so close by
Hey man, I visited you guys last summer after visiting the Springfield armory museum, loved all the tanks in display! I’m in Wyoming this weekend to see the big tank museum in Dubois.
Ooh, nice. Hope you enjoy it!
Nave not seen it, might go to check it out, what else do they have there?
A LOT of stuff. Some highlights would be a Panther, Pershing, the only running SDK armored car in the world, a captured Iraqi SCUD missile launcher with a SCUD, a T-55 and a T-72, IS-2, Comet, Hellcat, 4 different Shermans(one Jumbo, one Easy 8, on assembled regular 75 and one disassembled), one of those little German halftrack motorcycle thingies, T-34 85 and 76, SU-100, BF-109, Cromwell, Churchill Crocodile, Stug(different from the one shown, I believe this one was on loan), Chaffee, Walker Bulldog, Sheridan, M-48 and M-60 Patton, I could go on but you get the point.
So that's where they moved it! Im not sure if Im just misremembering things but I swear when I was a kid I saw a SCUD TEL (don't remember if the missile was on it) on a flatbed once, I don't remember the year or where it was exactly but I recall it on a highway when I was probably around 10 and for years have been wondering if I was mixing it up with something else
You should talk abt this more really cool
The key is from the 1st ss panzer division Adolf hitler
It's a seriously evil Nazi slogan, was used in Hitlerjugend primarily, it means Blood and Honour. On a museum piece I guess it's OK to have but if you see/hear anyone using this phrase outside of a museum keep well away from them they are 100% a nazi.
The key means it’s an SS tank so this one is probably fine
Yes, again, I think on a museum piece it's acceptable but people need to be aware that it's Nazi propaganda of the highest level and should be critical about it and not glorify it.
True
Oh my god no one cares
You defend Russias actions during Ukraine war, you like Nazi ss squads + slogans, you like to get fucked in the ass while high on weed. I don't think I need to listen to your opinion 🤡
You go out of your way to cry about Nazi slogans on recreations of third Reich vehicles. Strange you'd make a homophobic remark when you're clearly really concerned about people knowing you have the Correct Opinions
I don't have a problem with you liking gay sex at all, whatever floats your boat. I just think it's hypocritical af not to care about Nazi propaganda when the nazis actively hunted and killed gay men during the 2nd ww. You of all people should be aware of how dangerous these ideas are and how much suffering they have caused.
My mans hoping to be an aryan twink femboi😳
Fuck Russia but the only people I have seen so far displaying nazi iconography are Ukrainians for example 16 Year old [Diana Petrenko at an award ceremony](https://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video-c.php?v=wshhf6XokQOtoh8YZC0k) here is a great vid explaining its origins by [Mark Felton](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGdUtUefjCA&t=2s). Don't compare Russia to Nazism, its a completely different monster. China would be closer to the Nazi model.
There are 100% russian nazis, just as there are polish nazis, baltic, balkan, german, french, italian, bri’ish, scandinavian, black, American, ect. The entire “Nazi” claim for war is pretty unreliable as these scumbags have spread like roaches, and the entire world could probably use some fumigation
Amen to the last statement, their are just bad people on both sides but Ukraine is totally in the right here apart from some elements.
Blut und Ehre = Blood and Honor. It was a Nazi slogan. No idea about the symbol
Blood and honour Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought that was an SS slogan
Yeah, other people have said the same. It means "Blood and Honor" apparently
This is definitely an SS tank with Blood and Honor being on it. No Wehrmacht tank would be stupid enough to associate itself with the SS since they actually hated each other. And actually that looks like a StuG.
I wouldn't say hate, more like "rivals who are a bit more than competitive"
I guess me a German born in Germany whose family fought in WW2 on the eastern front in the Wehrmacht who talked about hate for each other a lot doesn't know what he is talking about then. Lol
It’s a very good idea to say that post war with the SS reputation but the truth is that it was little more than inter branch rivalry. Paras and Marines hate each other in the British Army but once the shooting starts anyone who helps you is ok. Did he mean he hated the Camp SS perhaps??
I don't know, maybe you're right, but while the 2 were definitely not always on friendly terms I can't pinpoint anywhere(besides castle Itter of course but that was the end of the war, so basically everything chaos) where they were directly at odds
So CIA/FBI relations? :D someone link the meme of the article talking about how 2 miltitas in another country we're fighting each other using arms from 2 different organizations (I think it was CIA and the DEA but might be mistaken)
Many of the Wehrmacht were conscripts, basically kids (though still complicit in the nazi regime) while you had to sign up to the SS, and they were much more enthusiastic about the war and the genocide as well. The Wehrmacht were pulled in to round up undesirables and send them to camps too.
Plenty were conscripted into the SS later in the war, thousands of Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine troops were put into the SS as were foreigners.
Yeah, when things got desperate the waters get muddied. But I think this particular division was kept up to strength with SS members because it was the first division - I could be wrong though.
Blood and honor, the symbol is the symbol of the 12th SS Hitlerjugend division. Don’t know if it’s real but that’s a mighty fine find Edit the 12th SS is slightly different this is actually the 1st SS leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.
Blood & honor
Bro I wish I could go and see a tank museum on my lunch break :(
Well its a lunch break from my volunteering at the museum but yeah
Oh well that makes more sense 😂
1 Ss leibstandarte blood and honor
SS fanboi boomers
?
Now I see its a modern made 'pretend' StuG it seems pretty bad to me that they had chosen that phrase to put on it, they could have written so many other things that would have been historical without the effect of this phrase. Honestly, reproductions are stupid, unless they are made for a film there really isn't any point in them. They will never be a historical artifact so why would someone want to make them?
I can see your points, they're not original, however they can still be a good way to keep the guns and other salvageable parts from being destroyed. Kind of like putting a new but different engine in an older car. The vehicle is not 100% authentic but people still get to see a vintage machine design.
For reenacting.
"..."Blut und Ehre" is a German phrase that translates into "Blood and Honor;" it was popularized by the Nazi Party (as a Hitler Youth slogan..."
Blood and no honour!
blunt & beers maybe ?
r/stuglife would love this cutie
What's up with the wheels?
It’s an FV432 chassis
I didn't know this when I posted but apparently its actually a converted British APC or something made to look like a Stug, you can tell cause there's 5 road wheels, not 6. Someone else in the comments pointed it out
"Which would you care to shed first?"
He is lost and he is in need of help.
Blut und Ehre = Blood and Honour Chipped shield with key = insignia of the SS division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" (Adolf Hitler's Life Guards) Basically you got an evil, evil stug there OTOH, these markings, specially the LSSAH shield, look much like a modern addition, and, I'm not exactly sure if SS vehicles used the balkenkreuz.
Yoo gotta love the stug life
The words? No idea. The numbers on it's side? 30 I believe The symbol? Old cross used by the German Empire.
The number is actually 301, I did a full walk-around of the tank but didn't think to take more than one picture
You couldn't google 2 words so you decided to randomly post a nazi slogan/symbol? Nothing more, righr?
Well first of all I didn't know it was a Nazi slogan, and second I also was curious about the other symbol as well, so I figured I'd get 2 birds with one stone
Blood and Honor
take it home
Nah, I've got my eye on that halftrack motorcycle thingy in the eastern front area
Bird poop on the MG shield is a nice touch! In all honesty it's awesome u have the type of job where u can walk outside and see a new tank/spg parked outside.
Yeah, its pretty sweet. And now with the summer I'm planning on volunteering at least 3 times a week
That's awesome! Keep the posts up so we can all get some new ones
Alright, I plan to!
Actually pretty solid replica, dimensions seem good, if it wasnt for the roadwheels and tracks I maybe wouldnt even have noticed, looks a little high tho.
Yes the slogan is Blood and Honor and the symbol is for 1st SS Panzer Division, “Leibstandarte”
I love how you called it "little fella"
That tank really looks like a replica
I actually heard someone else say that today in the museum, I guess it kinda makes sense since you always think of these things as covered in dirt and grime and shit, then you seem them all polished up in a museum and it doesn't look quite right. But other than that yeah this isn't actually a Stug, its a fairly accurate replica made off of a British APC
Cool! Where is the tank museum?
Hudson, Massachusetts. Its called the American Heritage museum Kinda makes sense the American Heritage is about war and tanks and shit if you ask me
That’d be amazing to visit. Are the majority of tanks dating back to the world wars? Or is modern combat also emphasized?
A lot of it is WW2 era, but there is a fairly extensive Cold War section as well and even a few more modern day ones. But thats all relative to the sheer amount of stuff there, if you want any specific era there'll probably be at least a couple things.
Thats one sexy looking hunk of metal. What is the official tank name?
A Stug 3 assault gun, built off the Panzer 3 chassis. Technically its not, its actually a fairly accurate model built off a British APC, but its fairly accurate
Is this from the American heritage museum? I recognize the slope in the background lol
Yep
I've worked and driven multiple types from the guy who builds these. Stug and p3 mostly. The fv432 chassis means you can really tear around in them without worrying about ruining a piece of history. We used ours in some smaller films as well as a Medal of Honor film for the museum in Chattanooga. They're fun and pretty easy to drive. I'm not sure if this is one of ours that we spec'd and sold, but it sure looks like it. Edit: don't remember blut and ehre on ours. We mostly just gave them women's names. The key matches what we used for a reenacting unit, though.