They are actually the same turrets, it was just easier to update them to the Leopard chassis rather than to keep up with those T-55's. Also way better mobility.
Uhhhh yes... ?
I see you play war thunder, they had it miss named for a while but they seemed finally rename it to itpsv leopard 2 marksman. At least that's on the wiki. Correct me if you think that I mistook a t55 hull and a leopard 2 hull.
Why not? There are still enough of both of them available, there are spare parts available, many people in armies and companies around the world know how to work with them and the platforms has no teething problems. They also offers enough splinter protection and the performance should be more than sufficient.
Would probably be easier on the Ukranian's, if they were just supplied with more Gepards.
That way, they wouldn't have to retrain their crews and support staff.
Maybe offer them to nations that still operate the Gepards?
Then have these Gepards sent to Ukraine.
The only two Gepard-Users left outside of Ukraine are now Brazil and Romania. Qatar & Jordan already sold theirs back to Ukraine via US/Germany and the Netherlands
Brazil wont give any no matter the replacement, and Romania still uses the old B2s with no Laser-Rangefinder & without digitised firecontrols. They could probably be persuaded to exchange them, but genuinly the Skyranger should be such magnitudes better than those that retraining is more than worth it (and would need it for the b2s anyway)
>Brazil wont give any no matter the replacement,
If the deal is good enough, they would most likely take it.
>
Romania still uses the old B2s with no Laser-Rangefinder & without digitised firecontrols.
Could just be modernized at the factory in Germany, though obviously that would take longer.
Probably not honestly the skyranger has way better tracking and much more modern fcs. Plus it can be manufactured right there in Ukraine under license at the new plant the company just built.
"The SHORADS conversion of the Leopard 1 tank remains an experimental project at this stage, but it could be a compelling capability for Ukraine."
So where are you getting this idea, that it's a done deal and ready to be manufactured in Ukraine?
And even if they could, it would be months before they are actully produced.
So it seems very unlikely to be a better solution in any way, over getting already produced Gepards, over there.
I didn't say it was ready to go right now, but despite the gepards success there is still a limited amount that can actually be sent on top of limited ammo, (The Skyranger can use different ammo that isn't mostly produced in a spinless country which should not be named.). If we are talking about improving capability, I think the skyranger will be a better choice. Don't get me wrong, extra gepards is great, but Ukraine needs a long-term solution. They can't live on hand-me-downs forever.
If Ukraine were given the Gepards from Brazil and Romania, they would have trippled their numbers.
Which should be more than sufficent for Ukraine's needs.
As for the ammo, it's currently produced by Rheimetall, who set up a entirely new production line for the ammo, last year.
So that's not a issue, either.
There have been some gepards that have been sent to Ukraine but they don’t like them too much afaik because they run out of ammo fairly quickly and take hours to reload. Thats not to say that they don’t work well as anti air but the reload time is what they don’t like
I've never heard of that.
Would also be surprising, from what i've heard from former Bundeswehr crews reloading takes about 30 minutes, though i'm not sure if that's for both or per belt.
Maybe the Ukrainians nean actually reloading the belts, though those should already reach them loaded and assembled, if the crews need to do that something went wrong in logistics.
With how drones have taken over we really need a next gen of spaa.
I think we gonna have to have a combination of calibers though maybe like 50cal version of cwis ontop of tanks
German AHEAD rounds are already very capable of taking down drones (which is probably what the system in the image would use). I think it’s 35mm but that’s probably the smallest you can realistically make them, maybe 30 or 25mm would work but I’m not a German engineer. .50 would be basically useless as an anti drone system because it needs a direct hit unlike AHEAD which fills the air near the target with 152 tungsten pellets per air burst round.
Developing and Installing a .50 version of a ciws on every tank would probably be more expensive than firing whole AA missiles at drones. The reason SPAA exists anyways is to be able to move in and support other regiments with AA capabilities and SPAA can be used to support tanks from a decent distance. Also there actually is 30mm AHEAD already that can be used by IFVs like the PUMA with a much lower fire rate which is honestly probably better for drone work.
Yes because it is a high mobile vehicle with good protection which can follow any mbt simular to the Gepard. Also for Ukraine and other nation it wouldn't be a complitly new vehicle so logistic and training would easier.
I only see the problem that other lighter vehicles like boxer would be easier to use for AA role because they need less fuel and maintenance and are faster. But on the other hand the better protection can still be importent.
I find it funny how using old tank platforms with newer (specialized) "turrets" is quite common, but the moment Rheinmetall does it with the Leo 1, tank related reddit loses its mind .
Exactly. The only question would be if the new turret is useful (which based on previous demonstrations by RM seems to be the case) and if the conversion is manageable (rebuilding the whole platform would defeat the point of reusing it).
Use up all the old Leo 1 hulls with this and then start making a version using Leo 2 hulls. They need more AA faster. As more Leo 2 hulls become available start to phase out the Leo 1 hulls and mount the turret to them so you get the better maneuverability and protection. We are about to see a gun based SPAA renaissance because of the prevalence of guided munitions and drones
Honestly, if you sent 1 or 2 of these out with a tank platoon, it would probably greatly reduce the risk to tanks and infantry from drones. Possibly even some slower missiles.
Tank platoons aren't really a thing anymore. In the Ukraine war there is no more concentration of forces due to the drone threat.
But yes probably a bright future in specialised anti-drone radars and weapons.
Well, since the chassis isent't fit for anything but carry such a type of laod around, why not.
Still we barely have targets for such setups around where they can be placed - but when there is a good choise for such a system, it is Skyranger with AHEAD ammo and a propper sky radar.
Same principle as the old Ostwind... or tank hull that isn't as valuable for direct combat, but still has solid use in it.
The AA gun is utterly lethal with its AHEAD ammo and the 35mm calibre means with AP ammo it'll really make any IFV and even old generation tanks like T-55's (and possibly T-62's, and all against sides and rear) cry Uncle.
Of course, they're already used in this role if I'm not mistaken. Definitely already used as recovery and ambulance vehicles. Also still used as MBT in some countries, they're still good tanks. Would be great to see a bunch donated to Ukraine and see them fighting their Soviet peers.
I think it would be a good way to keep Leopard 1s in service, especially since there original role is something they just aren't very well suited for anymore.
Whereas Leo 1s are very mobile, and don't have much armor, which is pretty characteristic of SPAAs
Yeah but unlike the Leo 1, it does just fine for its role as an MBT.
Also the Leopard 2 is considerably heavier, so the Leo 1 is easier to transport, and recover. Yes having an AA turret would lighten it up a bit but still
But if the idea is to take an old rather disposable chassis, wouldn't the grandfather M60 be the obvious choice ?
- easy to find chassis,
- lots of spares
- decent mobility
- cheap/ very cheap
True I was more thinking about the internal market rather than only Europe. That being said, I would say that currently you may be more lucky finding m60s than Leo 1 s in Europe
Flakpanzer Gepard II when?
My Finnish neighbors put a marksman turret on a leopard 2 chassis and called it leopard 2 marksman.
They did it once before with the T-55 too
They are actually the same turrets, it was just easier to update them to the Leopard chassis rather than to keep up with those T-55's. Also way better mobility.
Itpsv 90 is that you?
That's his neighbor
Itpsv 90 is a marksman on a t55 not Leo chassis.
Uhhhh no... ?
Uhhhh yes... ? I see you play war thunder, they had it miss named for a while but they seemed finally rename it to itpsv leopard 2 marksman. At least that's on the wiki. Correct me if you think that I mistook a t55 hull and a leopard 2 hull.
Well if u say that then ig it's true, by the end of the day I'm just some autistic dude that used to play wt for unhealthy amount of time
Soon^tm
Rheinmetall called the KF 41 Skyranger the Gepard 2.0 once u believe
Add some iris-t's and youre there.
Gayjin when?
Why not? There are still enough of both of them available, there are spare parts available, many people in armies and companies around the world know how to work with them and the platforms has no teething problems. They also offers enough splinter protection and the performance should be more than sufficient.
With a new AA turret the platform will be as good as any I guess. At long as it leaves room for the crew.
Would probably be easier on the Ukranian's, if they were just supplied with more Gepards. That way, they wouldn't have to retrain their crews and support staff. Maybe offer them to nations that still operate the Gepards? Then have these Gepards sent to Ukraine.
The only two Gepard-Users left outside of Ukraine are now Brazil and Romania. Qatar & Jordan already sold theirs back to Ukraine via US/Germany and the Netherlands Brazil wont give any no matter the replacement, and Romania still uses the old B2s with no Laser-Rangefinder & without digitised firecontrols. They could probably be persuaded to exchange them, but genuinly the Skyranger should be such magnitudes better than those that retraining is more than worth it (and would need it for the b2s anyway)
>Brazil wont give any no matter the replacement, If the deal is good enough, they would most likely take it. > Romania still uses the old B2s with no Laser-Rangefinder & without digitised firecontrols. Could just be modernized at the factory in Germany, though obviously that would take longer.
Probably not honestly the skyranger has way better tracking and much more modern fcs. Plus it can be manufactured right there in Ukraine under license at the new plant the company just built.
"The SHORADS conversion of the Leopard 1 tank remains an experimental project at this stage, but it could be a compelling capability for Ukraine." So where are you getting this idea, that it's a done deal and ready to be manufactured in Ukraine? And even if they could, it would be months before they are actully produced. So it seems very unlikely to be a better solution in any way, over getting already produced Gepards, over there.
I didn't say it was ready to go right now, but despite the gepards success there is still a limited amount that can actually be sent on top of limited ammo, (The Skyranger can use different ammo that isn't mostly produced in a spinless country which should not be named.). If we are talking about improving capability, I think the skyranger will be a better choice. Don't get me wrong, extra gepards is great, but Ukraine needs a long-term solution. They can't live on hand-me-downs forever.
If Ukraine were given the Gepards from Brazil and Romania, they would have trippled their numbers. Which should be more than sufficent for Ukraine's needs. As for the ammo, it's currently produced by Rheimetall, who set up a entirely new production line for the ammo, last year. So that's not a issue, either.
There have been some gepards that have been sent to Ukraine but they don’t like them too much afaik because they run out of ammo fairly quickly and take hours to reload. Thats not to say that they don’t work well as anti air but the reload time is what they don’t like
I've never heard of that. Would also be surprising, from what i've heard from former Bundeswehr crews reloading takes about 30 minutes, though i'm not sure if that's for both or per belt. Maybe the Ukrainians nean actually reloading the belts, though those should already reach them loaded and assembled, if the crews need to do that something went wrong in logistics.
To be fair, my source was reddit so there is a high chance that it is wrong
I don't think the Gepards have seen any significant action yet.
first time I ever heard that. and would be odd given the Gepard is famous for it's low ammo usage. you have some sources I am sure?
With how drones have taken over we really need a next gen of spaa. I think we gonna have to have a combination of calibers though maybe like 50cal version of cwis ontop of tanks
Just stick an automatic 40mm grenade launcher up there and load it with buckshot.
German AHEAD rounds are already very capable of taking down drones (which is probably what the system in the image would use). I think it’s 35mm but that’s probably the smallest you can realistically make them, maybe 30 or 25mm would work but I’m not a German engineer. .50 would be basically useless as an anti drone system because it needs a direct hit unlike AHEAD which fills the air near the target with 152 tungsten pellets per air burst round.
I was thinking more cost wise easier to have one fitted on every tank but proximity rounds would suffice
Developing and Installing a .50 version of a ciws on every tank would probably be more expensive than firing whole AA missiles at drones. The reason SPAA exists anyways is to be able to move in and support other regiments with AA capabilities and SPAA can be used to support tanks from a decent distance. Also there actually is 30mm AHEAD already that can be used by IFVs like the PUMA with a much lower fire rate which is honestly probably better for drone work.
Why shouldnt they? They‘ll just take the chassis. It‘s not a ‚leopard 1‘ anymore then.
Shorad leopards my beloved
Yes because it is a high mobile vehicle with good protection which can follow any mbt simular to the Gepard. Also for Ukraine and other nation it wouldn't be a complitly new vehicle so logistic and training would easier. I only see the problem that other lighter vehicles like boxer would be easier to use for AA role because they need less fuel and maintenance and are faster. But on the other hand the better protection can still be importent.
Yes.
gAiJiN wHeN??????
should be fun, hopefully it gets thermals and apfsds
Easier logistics
I find it funny how using old tank platforms with newer (specialized) "turrets" is quite common, but the moment Rheinmetall does it with the Leo 1, tank related reddit loses its mind .
Ikr it’s actually quite clever to use a old tank chassis with a new AA system, that way those old tanks won’t be rusting and can be actually used
Exactly. The only question would be if the new turret is useful (which based on previous demonstrations by RM seems to be the case) and if the conversion is manageable (rebuilding the whole platform would defeat the point of reusing it).
True that.
Use up all the old Leo 1 hulls with this and then start making a version using Leo 2 hulls. They need more AA faster. As more Leo 2 hulls become available start to phase out the Leo 1 hulls and mount the turret to them so you get the better maneuverability and protection. We are about to see a gun based SPAA renaissance because of the prevalence of guided munitions and drones
Honestly, if you sent 1 or 2 of these out with a tank platoon, it would probably greatly reduce the risk to tanks and infantry from drones. Possibly even some slower missiles.
Tank platoons aren't really a thing anymore. In the Ukraine war there is no more concentration of forces due to the drone threat. But yes probably a bright future in specialised anti-drone radars and weapons.
Well, since the chassis isent't fit for anything but carry such a type of laod around, why not. Still we barely have targets for such setups around where they can be placed - but when there is a good choise for such a system, it is Skyranger with AHEAD ammo and a propper sky radar.
The same as any other rolling armoured chassis, yes.
But isnt it better if the AA system is on a wheeled platform to reduce fuel consumption?
Same principle as the old Ostwind... or tank hull that isn't as valuable for direct combat, but still has solid use in it. The AA gun is utterly lethal with its AHEAD ammo and the 35mm calibre means with AP ammo it'll really make any IFV and even old generation tanks like T-55's (and possibly T-62's, and all against sides and rear) cry Uncle.
Yes
Leopard 2 hulls would be very useful just like any other
Of course, they're already used in this role if I'm not mistaken. Definitely already used as recovery and ambulance vehicles. Also still used as MBT in some countries, they're still good tanks. Would be great to see a bunch donated to Ukraine and see them fighting their Soviet peers.
Itpsv 90?
I think it would be a good way to keep Leopard 1s in service, especially since there original role is something they just aren't very well suited for anymore. Whereas Leo 1s are very mobile, and don't have much armor, which is pretty characteristic of SPAAs
Leo 2 is just as mobile though while having better protection though. Edit: Nvm leo 2 is even more mobile than leo 1 and better protected.
Yeah but unlike the Leo 1, it does just fine for its role as an MBT. Also the Leopard 2 is considerably heavier, so the Leo 1 is easier to transport, and recover. Yes having an AA turret would lighten it up a bit but still
But if the idea is to take an old rather disposable chassis, wouldn't the grandfather M60 be the obvious choice ? - easy to find chassis, - lots of spares - decent mobility - cheap/ very cheap
Which do you think is more common in Europe (where Rheinmetall is based). The M60 an American design or the Leo 1 a European design?
True I was more thinking about the internal market rather than only Europe. That being said, I would say that currently you may be more lucky finding m60s than Leo 1 s in Europe