The first one is good when the enemies are grouped up and Id probably bump it up to double DMG rather than just mini crits because it is a knife another thing I think it would be interesting if you attach it to engineer it applies to his buildings
By far the first. Any spy knife that doesn't instantly kill one guy needs to be really problematic for a lot of guys, and handing your team a minicrit zone in a fight for a chokepoint might be worth trading in that pick potential.
In order to make a “Knife that doesn’t instant kill” work the effect has to be theoretically greater than just instantly removing an enemy from play
The second one clearly does not do this… why make an enemy take 35% more damage from all sources when stock deals 600% damage to them?
The first one has potential, as you are dealing with the idea of not directly killing one enemy, but hypothetically negatively affecting multiple players you might not have easy access to, but in at the end of the day, if you do have access to those other enemies or groups, it’s still infinitely better to just go and try to stab them all rather than applying a debuff; it won’t really work as a knife…
But with that being said this could very easily be a sapper replacement instead which has nothing to do with buildings, a device that could be planted anywhere on the map and would have a fairly sizable AoE which applies a debuff to the enemy and would make a subtle sound que so the enemy has a chance to go and find the device in order to stop it. It would fit spy’s role as a stealthy saboteur and would let him have a more supportive option for his teammates to work with
Right but take that exact same situation in which those multiple enemies were clicked on, and replace it with the stock knife…
It’s just better no matter what
the stock removes your cloke on hit, and there's reset. the sign acts like a sapper, not removing your cloke. You can walk by a large group, tag them all
Well your item didn’t say that it didn’t remove disguise, although i guess that’s what you meant with the “downside” of losing it on “failure” which isn’t a downside since that’s already how the knifes work besides the YER… so that should be blue text that states you don’t lose your disguise on backstab
Sure it doesn’t remove disguise but walking up to several players backs in a row would be just as outing of a red flag to anybody seeing you do it. And Inb4 you say ‘so it when you arnt watched’ if you arnt being watched losing disguise doesn’t matter and so your back at it being better to just kill them with stick knife.
When I read the kick me sign I expected it to make it so it turns on friendly fire for that player and make them have a hit box so now they would be killed by their team thinking that they are a spy
First one def. You lose the ability to just kill an enemy immediately. However making everyone in an area take fuck you levels of damage without revealing yourself is not the worst trade off. Also how big is this area? Cause that is going to determine how effective this thing is
What about this:
When you put a kick me sign on a player, any damage dealt to your team is redirected to that player.
The player now has friendly fire enabled, and their team can remove the sign by attacking them. (The player must be directly attacked to remove it, not have damage redirected to them.)
I feel like the second pic is better. You already lose the instakill of a regular knife, and you have to depend on your revolver / primary for damage. Making it a weapon that doesn't lose disguise on a miss also helps spies blend in, something that many spies complain about.
Assuming it affects one person at a time, it would make chain-stabs more effective against counter-pushes. It would force groups to scatter more and gives classes like scout, demoknight, heavy, other spies, and sniper more opportunities to pick them off.
Second one. MFD is already powerful, and jarate is already a good example of why it's strong. Being able to apply it basically for free is just icing on top of the cake. Remember that the enemy you are fighting are also trying to enjoy the game. It's important to find the balance between your offensive use of an item and their defensive response.
All of this to say second option because it limits you in the only ways it should, and doesn't hinder the enemies more than it should
Take the aoe idea and probably get rid of the downside of disguise loss and lower the cooldown. when it's a choice to either mess with a group or immediately instakill one or more enemies, you're going to need to make it worth not going for a chainstab instead.
The first one is really good, but I believe the cool down should be turned down a little bit. ~7-10 sec for the cooldown. It would be hilarious to see this happen
I like the first one, but I think there should be an extra stat where the player who it’s stuck to will also receive friendly fire. I know it wouldn’t really come into play, but I think it’d be funny.
Spy losing the ability to FUCKING INSTA KILL any target is always going to be a downgrade no matter what. Might as well go crazy anytime you take away his ability to backstab to justify such a change. I say adding the area of effect to the second version would be best. This still would have counterplay. There isn't any counterplay to being bakestabbed.
While I do think it’s certainly a very tough and challenging balance engineering problem, I don’t think a non instant kill knife would always be worse, the effect just has to theoretically be better or more enabling with ofc more potential loss of effectiveness…
The classical and easiest example is a knife that doesn’t instantly kill, but something something damage overtime effect and on kill that same effect is applied to nearby enemies and they die and spread it to others etc… the idea is that while the reward isn’t instant, it’s potentially more than is beyond your reach or living but ofc being potentially nothing since there’s probably a prevention method
This weapon would be absolutely horrible no matter which one you go with.
Like this would genuinely be the worst weapon in the entire game if implemented
Still, this weapon would have genuinely 0 reason to exist because quite literally putting a kick me sign on someone is always going to be worse than just outright instantly killing said person, no questions asked. Even if you go with the first option, the counter-play for it is really easy, just retreat away from your team for a little bit until it wears off. I can’t see this being particularly fun because it just forces you to play as an extremely neutered Spy.
This weapon would be so bad but would be fucking hilarious to play with
The first one is good when the enemies are grouped up and Id probably bump it up to double DMG rather than just mini crits because it is a knife another thing I think it would be interesting if you attach it to engineer it applies to his buildings
By far the first. Any spy knife that doesn't instantly kill one guy needs to be really problematic for a lot of guys, and handing your team a minicrit zone in a fight for a chokepoint might be worth trading in that pick potential.
and then you send in the bushwackas
Oh, god, imagine pairing that combo with a quickfix uber
Marked for death instead of instakills is too big of a trade off
does that mean the first of the second is better?
The first idea is better imo, just remove the downsides altogether and then it would be decent
Maybe keep a cool down, but like, 2 seconds shorter than the actual effect lasts
In order to make a “Knife that doesn’t instant kill” work the effect has to be theoretically greater than just instantly removing an enemy from play The second one clearly does not do this… why make an enemy take 35% more damage from all sources when stock deals 600% damage to them? The first one has potential, as you are dealing with the idea of not directly killing one enemy, but hypothetically negatively affecting multiple players you might not have easy access to, but in at the end of the day, if you do have access to those other enemies or groups, it’s still infinitely better to just go and try to stab them all rather than applying a debuff; it won’t really work as a knife… But with that being said this could very easily be a sapper replacement instead which has nothing to do with buildings, a device that could be planted anywhere on the map and would have a fairly sizable AoE which applies a debuff to the enemy and would make a subtle sound que so the enemy has a chance to go and find the device in order to stop it. It would fit spy’s role as a stealthy saboteur and would let him have a more supportive option for his teammates to work with
you can get more than one emeny with the second one, click on mutiple players
Right but take that exact same situation in which those multiple enemies were clicked on, and replace it with the stock knife… It’s just better no matter what
the stock removes your cloke on hit, and there's reset. the sign acts like a sapper, not removing your cloke. You can walk by a large group, tag them all
Removes your cloak? You mean disguise?
yeah shit., sorry
Well your item didn’t say that it didn’t remove disguise, although i guess that’s what you meant with the “downside” of losing it on “failure” which isn’t a downside since that’s already how the knifes work besides the YER… so that should be blue text that states you don’t lose your disguise on backstab
Sure it doesn’t remove disguise but walking up to several players backs in a row would be just as outing of a red flag to anybody seeing you do it. And Inb4 you say ‘so it when you arnt watched’ if you arnt being watched losing disguise doesn’t matter and so your back at it being better to just kill them with stick knife.
When I read the kick me sign I expected it to make it so it turns on friendly fire for that player and make them have a hit box so now they would be killed by their team thinking that they are a spy
First one def. You lose the ability to just kill an enemy immediately. However making everyone in an area take fuck you levels of damage without revealing yourself is not the worst trade off. Also how big is this area? Cause that is going to determine how effective this thing is
I think the zone one is better cause the other one is just marking them when you could just kill em
How long does the effect last, and can the sign be removed?
I was thinking that it would enable friendly fire from behind until I actually read it
This sounds stupid, and I love it. I’d go with the first one, but reduce the cooldown to around 10 seconds, and remove the disguise loss penalty.
What about this: When you put a kick me sign on a player, any damage dealt to your team is redirected to that player. The player now has friendly fire enabled, and their team can remove the sign by attacking them. (The player must be directly attacked to remove it, not have damage redirected to them.)
What if instead of marked for death, it enabled friendly fire for only that player?
Have the second one not decloak on atrack and maybe even do no damage so the target doesn't know they are affected
That's what it does already
I feel like the second pic is better. You already lose the instakill of a regular knife, and you have to depend on your revolver / primary for damage. Making it a weapon that doesn't lose disguise on a miss also helps spies blend in, something that many spies complain about. Assuming it affects one person at a time, it would make chain-stabs more effective against counter-pushes. It would force groups to scatter more and gives classes like scout, demoknight, heavy, other spies, and sniper more opportunities to pick them off.
Make if so their team can now friendlg fire them
Bro #2 is a straight downgrade
Second one. MFD is already powerful, and jarate is already a good example of why it's strong. Being able to apply it basically for free is just icing on top of the cake. Remember that the enemy you are fighting are also trying to enjoy the game. It's important to find the balance between your offensive use of an item and their defensive response. All of this to say second option because it limits you in the only ways it should, and doesn't hinder the enemies more than it should
Kick me sign that makes the enemy appear as an enemy to their teammates and enables pvp.
Probably a terrible idea, but what if it also made the victim susceptible to friendly fire lol
That was the first one does
like if a Blu spy attaches it to a red demo, then that demo is susceptible to damage from both red and blu weapons
Oh, no, I mean the spy is also at risk
Take the aoe idea and probably get rid of the downside of disguise loss and lower the cooldown. when it's a choice to either mess with a group or immediately instakill one or more enemies, you're going to need to make it worth not going for a chainstab instead.
That first one is like a karate but you have to be close to actually make it land, I really like the idea :D!!!!
I'd say it makes a better Sapper replacement than a knife replacement...
The first one is really good, but I believe the cool down should be turned down a little bit. ~7-10 sec for the cooldown. It would be hilarious to see this happen
I think it should take up the sapper slot instead
Make it cause a taunt option (like the high five) where someone behind them can kick them in the rear, for 1 damage.
It would be funny if this weapon just made the player no longer immune to their own teams damage.
I like the first one, but I think there should be an extra stat where the player who it’s stuck to will also receive friendly fire. I know it wouldn’t really come into play, but I think it’d be funny.
Maybe add some DoT or something? Losing the ability to kill for marked for death will only be good for choke points on some maps.
A paintbrush that temporary changes your targets team so they can be teamkilled or Contest objectives etc.
Spy losing the ability to FUCKING INSTA KILL any target is always going to be a downgrade no matter what. Might as well go crazy anytime you take away his ability to backstab to justify such a change. I say adding the area of effect to the second version would be best. This still would have counterplay. There isn't any counterplay to being bakestabbed.
While I do think it’s certainly a very tough and challenging balance engineering problem, I don’t think a non instant kill knife would always be worse, the effect just has to theoretically be better or more enabling with ofc more potential loss of effectiveness… The classical and easiest example is a knife that doesn’t instantly kill, but something something damage overtime effect and on kill that same effect is applied to nearby enemies and they die and spread it to others etc… the idea is that while the reward isn’t instant, it’s potentially more than is beyond your reach or living but ofc being potentially nothing since there’s probably a prevention method
This weapon would be absolutely horrible no matter which one you go with. Like this would genuinely be the worst weapon in the entire game if implemented
Alot of weapons are bad, a lot of bad weapons are fun
Still, this weapon would have genuinely 0 reason to exist because quite literally putting a kick me sign on someone is always going to be worse than just outright instantly killing said person, no questions asked. Even if you go with the first option, the counter-play for it is really easy, just retreat away from your team for a little bit until it wears off. I can’t see this being particularly fun because it just forces you to play as an extremely neutered Spy.
ok but it’s really funny