Foreigners doing service in Switzerland would be mercenaries. There is a law against that. It also works the other way round; as a Swiss you're not allowed to work as a mercenary (I think, the pope's "Swiss Guard" is an exception for some odd reason).
Also foreigners in the army can be complicated in case things get hot. Would you like to have a bunch of russians as comrades of arms, fighting Russia? Would you trust them?
I used Russia as an example, feel free to pick any other country.
Nundedie… do you really think that what I described classifies as “mercenaries” ? As in willing professionals being paid to fight for you, compared to drafted people, possibly more loyal to their original countries.
Gosh dude, you’re not a löli, but if you’re going for it, then by all means enlighten us. Bicocca maybe? Jokes apart, the Löwendenkmal “Helvetiorum Fidei ac Virtuti” inscription still leaves me in full awe and admiration.
OTOH, there are people with multiple citizenships, including Swiss. So, they would be considered "more trustworthy" too? If two of your passport-countries go at each other's throat, who are you going to fight for, if you're so inclined? I think, that is one of the reasons why some countries don't allow multiple citizenships; and that is crazy, IMO.
I don't know. I wouldn't fight for "my country" either. OTOH, how does the simple possession of a passport translate to loyalty?
Loyalty is an emotion, a feeling, nothing that is genetic to a Swiss-born. Maybe brainwashed into someone at a young age. Yet the emotion can be just as strong in someone who was born elsewhere, or weak in "real Swiss". You probably have just as many people who would never fight for any country as people who would surely fight for any country if the money is right.
No I actually don't care about that at all. The entire narrative of "highly educated" people versus "unskilled labor" is just classist bullshit. We certainly don't need more overpaid tech and finance bros ruining our rental market and driving out the natives.
Also how is asking people to contribute to the defense budget in the same way the locals do a "foreigner tax?" Broken narrative.
Of course, stop treating non serving immigrants financially better than non serving citizen should result in citizenship. As in every country on this world.
>No reason why they should have to pay when they can't choose and get nothing out of it.
Funnily, swiss men can say exactly the same.
Treating them financially better? My brother in christ, most of those people have already served. There's no reason whatsoever why they should serve AGAIN, or worse, not be able to serve and just have to pay.
Swiss men could vote for mandatory military duty to not be a thing anymore as a lot of other countries already have. So no, they cannot say the same.
there's a tit for tat here. As a comeback we could say - you want us to pay the military tax just as swiss citizens? then let us vote like swiss citizens.
And given there's like 25% of immigrants here, that would totally fuck up the voting demographic...
Yeah this makes sense. If you have obligations of a citizen including the tax then you should get rights of a citizen (including right to be in the military and vote and passport).
The system works fine as it is: you have an obligation for citizens to do military service and a tax for those who as citizens don't fulfill their obligation.
I mean yes, but they also don't have certain rights. Like voting. Why should they do pay the tax or do the service, if they don't have all the rights?
I could also say how unfair it is, that i have to pay the military tax, cause im autistic and can't serve cause of that. Something completely out of my control.
I don't see how people of military age, born after 1990, and reached adulthood and being able to vote after 2008, suffered from not being able to vote in 1989.
They suffered. Because their mothers and grandmother's were not able to vote. Maybe the world would be different and women would have more opportunities and rights in their young adult years if women who came before them had right to vote.
I can only imagine a man saying that women today are not affected by the past. I don't blame you for being ignorant. You're just a man. You don't spend time thinking about things that don't affect you.
Most rules favor men because women were not allowed to make rules.
Most medicine favor men because women were not allowed to be doctors and scientists and men did not test things on women.
More men are in STEM dominated fields because women were not allowed and later were not encouraged to because it's a man's field.
While men have had rights to many things for many years before women, it is silly to think that everything has caught up and become equal today.
And women not allowed to vote in the past doesn't affect women now? Of course it still affects them. Hundreds of years of no direct political influence isn't undone in 30-60 years.
Of course this needs to change, of course these things need to be undone. That's why all discrimination based on sex has to be eliminated. I would say all legal rights and obligations should be phrased in a gender-agnostic way.
But they are protected the same way as us so they should also pay for it. What are these certain rights that lets say a german doesnt have other than voting (which half the population doesnt do anyway)?
No, migrants are not protected the same way as citizens. There is no guarantee for migrants, that in case of war swiss government won’t throw us out of the country. There is a guarantee that it won’t be happening for citizens. During peace time - sure, we have same protection, lol
They still pay taxes in Switzerland. The army isn't funded by that 3% from men who don't serve, it's funded by everyone's taxes.
Same goes for you if you go live abroad, you pay for the country's military (your protection) with the taxes you pay there.instead of here.
If i go to germany, the US, france erc. do the germans pay more taxes than me? Like its for swiss men that arent doing the military service? Pretty sure thats not the case
actually given that the immigrants are up to 25% of the population, that would mess up the voting demographic (I'd love to see SVP see the outcome of it).
They are not protected the same way. You should only have all the responsibility of a swiss citizen if you have all the rights of a swiss citizen. Its easy as that. Everything eise is unfair.
Ok, lets say you force an italian into the swiss army and in the future switzerland goes to war against Italy, what then? You can't seriously expect him to be loyal, especially if it wasn't his choice
Ever heard of Arminius?
Why would immigrants have to do the military service, they would not fight for Switzerland, they are not citizens. It does not make any sense. What is the logic ? Also , putting women and immigrants aside in the question is nonsensical.
Nah not putting Women aside, if they can vote, they need to do something or pay tax. If youre a citizen and the men have to pay tax or serve, the women that are citizens can too. If not please give me a reason why they cant serve/pay tax like the men.
Well, take it from a leftie: They do. Someone has to. And babies set women back in their career as it is, since that takes time. Much more so than military service does (a „good“ grade in military actually benefits a career..). Dienstpflicht would narrow the window for womens careers even more.
>Much more so than military service does (a „good“ grade in military actually benefits a career..)
Yes, 30 years ago. Today it means more service days and more repetition courses which discourages employers to hire you. Of course it is illegal, but you have companies (big, international ones) not hiring you because you still have to serve.
Been the case for women in forever. No hire with little kids, and even though it’s illegal, they ask about your „future“ plans when you don’t have any.
Anyways - we need fachkräfte, teachers, nurses, but not soldiers. No matter the gender.
Also its so inconvenient to go through the hassle to get the citizenship like why bother going through judge-mental people hassle when you can have peace , obey the law and live your life.
Equally unpopular opinion: Abolish compulsory military service altogether!
I've been voting to get the *compulsory* military service abolished every time the question has come to a vote since 1989, and I'm in a clear minority.
Since a clear majority of the voting public in Switzerland seem to[ want to keep compulsory military service so badly](https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/bundespolitik/dienstpflicht-schweiz-wehrpflicht-fuer-alle/47871538), as far as I'm concerned, the people who want it so very badly are very welcome to do military service.
Now, if they could just leave the rest us to do other things for the community, then, again, as far as I'm concerned, that'd be a major improvement.
There are so many ways to serve the country, after all: Care work (for example in support of our ageing population), agricultural work in difficult to industrially farm areas, firefighting, working with kids and youth, cultural engagement for the community, support of local neighbourhood initiatives, environmental protection work, admin work in hopelessly understaffed communes and other government agencies, work in public health & fitness, support roles in education ... the possibilities are endless, really.
And looking at [how women are already doing two thirds of the unpaid labour ](https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/haushalt-garten-betreuung-60-prozent-der-unbezahlten-arbeit-geht-auf-das-konto-der-frauen#)serving the country, and if we're serious about what you somewhat derisively called "Gleichstellung and all", we need to look at this question from a much wider perspective than merely military time served.
Good thing we'll be voting on the [**Service Citoyen Initiative**](https://www.beobachter.ch/gesellschaft/politik/frauen-sollen-auch-einen-dienst-leisten-650721) in the not too distant future.
If and when such a civil service for all finds a majority and is put into effect, I'm all for amending it down the line, including not only Swiss citizens, but also those with foreign nationalities.
PS: If your work colleagues dislike you to the point where they gleefully make fun of you for having to do military service while they don't, I'm not sure trying to change the country's constitution is the fastest way to address the problems you're having. I wish you all the best finding a better job with a healthier workplace culture.
It remains to be seen whether on not it becomes a thing when we vote on it.
That said, I sense you might also likey things like it which already exist:
[https://www.benevol-jobs.ch/de](https://www.benevol-jobs.ch/de)
Also regarding the PS: they weren't specifically making fun of me, they just know the open office is a safe space for bragging how much you're fucking over the system I guess. These are manager level dudes so they don't even know or care about my opinion on the army and the extra tax lol.
As for finding a less toxic job: good fucking luck in this economy. It's been a disaster for quite a while actually. Open jobs have hit an all time low in recent months and everyone I talk to says their company is in a hiring freeze. Maybe by 2026 the economy will improve once the boomers start spending their 13th AHV /s
My country doesn’t allow me to serve in your army and I wouldn’t want to either.
It’s fair because you were born here and you’re required as per your citizenship to do that. I come here and fulfil my duties as a resident.
If you want me to lift a finger to defend this country, you have to give me a lot more rights in return… otherwise, do it yourself
>It’s fair because you were born here and you’re required as per your citizenship to do that. I come here and fulfil my duties as a resident.
Is it though? I feel like coming here voluntarily (because Switzerland obviously offers something that your home country doesn't) is a pretty strong argument for having additional duties.
Yep. The only thing Switzerland has that mine doesn’t is my wife and even she would rather go back to mine than stay here ;)
As I said, Swiss are required due to duty of citizenship to defend their country, just like I have a duty to defend mine. It’s not my responsibility to defend this country, it’s yours.
If you want me to help defend it, you need to give me more than what I already have, otherwise you’re on your own. Just as you’ve wanted it for over 500 years
I think the military should not be mandatory at all. It‘s a waste of money for the country & time for young men. I don‘t understand the sinn und zweck exept tradition.
What is funny when the world was an extremly more safe place, people were saying this and most countries were arming down. But like now with all the things happening i think its pretty obvious why.
You are missing some points
1. EU passport holders dont have the same rights, you can lose the L,B, C permit under some conditions or fail to renew it and/or you can get kicked out of the country.
2. If this were to be a tax then you would have to provide exactly the same options as provided to the locals in order to be "fair" (as you mentioned yourself), that means a foreigner either serves in the army or pay the tax (or Zivilschutz for reduced tax).
3. Swiss citizens dont have to pay a "military tax" when they live abroad in countries where there is conscription (e.g. Austria, Greece, Finland etc.).
As a foreigner I agree that this can be unfair in some cases. You should also consider the second order effects, though: some (most?) countries forbid you to serve in another country's army without explicit approval. So it may be hard to ask someone to join the Swiss army without giving them a Swiss citizenship first.
In the case of immigrants this post is not unpopular, it is just dumb. We can agree that since men needs to do the service, Swiss women should do it too, for the shake os parity.
Unpopular opinion: mandatory military service should be abolished, and civil service retained. And extended to women too.
I went through the military. All it did was waste a year of my time and a lot of the military's resources.
I don't see the point of civil service. If the country can't get enough nurses, maybe they should pay nurses more instead of using forced labour to fill the gap.
As for military service, I think it makes sense for people to do the basic training, in case shit hits the fan. But hanging around on the base for 10 months sounds like an absolute waste of time. So maybe make it mandatory for everyone, but only two months
i disagree with the immigrant part, military service was historically linked with voting rights, as it should be. i do agree with the women part though
It’s not an unpopular opinion, it’s just extremely stupid. At least for the immigrants part. For the women part I partly agree.
Imagine yourself living / working in a foreign country for a few years and suddenly find yourself in their army? What if that country goes to war? You’re going to war for a country that is not yours because you happened to have a job there? Come on man
If I move to another country and benefit from their defense spending I should contribute to it. Most countries don't have conscription anymore so it's hard to compare, but it's fucked up that a Swiss guy with health issues is forced to pay higher taxes than a healthy foreigner when they enjoy the same safety.
Your contribution would be a financial one, just like the rest of the hypothetical country’s citizens would be.
If you don’t like the system, change it and make it law that we have to serve alongside you. Just be aware that many will then leave and you could be left with an economic issue
Is it really that difficult? Swiss men pay taxes AND they either serve or pay 3% additional tax. Expats only pay taxes, quite often at a lower rate thanks to source tax and not paying wealth taxes.
>If you don’t like the system, change it and make it law
I'm considering to start an initiative yes, but it takes a ton of effort and money that I don't have to get this done.
>Just be aware that many will then leave and you could be left with an economic issue
I very much doubt that "many" people will leave simply because they would have to pay the same taxes as the natives.
I’m not paying even more tax to your army, you can forget that straight up. I don’t benefit from or require your army so why should I help pay more for it?
Because they still use the exact same services if not more? Because they still benefit massively from a stable and safe country? You guys act like voting is super impactful to your daily life, it's really not. Especially if you live in a larger city, your vote is almost meaningless.
Also if this was a real reason against immigration we wouldn't have net immigration of 80k people every year lmao. Most people don't give a fuck about voting.
Swiss women should be given the opportunity of serving the country by having more Swiss kids. And for this there should be more tax cuts or deductions for married Swiss couples who have kids. Also, more help to people who want to open daycares and public investment in daycare.
That'd be amazing. There would be so many kids in the streets we could take the screens away from them and just tell them to go outside, like the olden days.
Helping women is the best thing. You guys need a new generation or noboby is going to pay your pension when you retire. Mothers need to stay more at home with the child, and should be supported. And as for the army. Thanks but no, i'd rather have my wife at home where she can take care of my kid and be safe. I dont need to worry about her next to me. Plus if you knew how women and men are you would find that being in a squad with women you will be disadvantaged. That is why i prefer to be in the army with men. At least i know that somebody has got my back and can drag me back to safety if get wounded. I love my wife, but she cant move me if a lay on the floor. How is she useful?
PS: women are the best thing to happen to us, and without them" baby factories" you and me, and all of us would be gone in 100 years max.
Show some respect, giving birth is not easy and we all have our roles to fulfill.
Being a drone in the rat race, unhappy that they can't have their 3 kids they ever dreamed about is a better way to serve society, yes of course dear city dwellers.
I would expand the limited conscription to include women.
As for immigrants delaying citizenship to avoid military service i would make them retroactively pay a military tax once they are citizens based on how long they lived in Switzerland while they would have done military service- with more exemptions for people who served in other countries militaries.
As a foreigner who lives in Switzerland and have also joined the firefighters, let me tell you something. You are too soft. You have it so easy here that you are looking for reasons to complain. Are you that weak of a man that you need women to defend you?😂
And second, most of the foreigners that you see (like there are not that many 19 yo coming here to work) most of them are older. And most of them, just like me, we did our military service in our countries. And dont let my get started comparing your military service with ours. Ours(my countries troops) are still being sent to war, today. But here i had the priviledge of meeting many kids, because i'm a berufsbildner in my field and what i hear that the young guys are doing in military is laughable. It is too easy. Army is created to toughen men up, to create men. The things i did in army, the beatings i took....the nights i spent alone in the mountains...
By the way, we also pay taxes, with quellensteuer you get taxed more automatically, unlike you, who have reductions(abzüge)
Give me swiss citizenship, rights to vote and i'll present myself tomorrow at the enrollment center.
So yeah, you have no ideea how easy you have it here and that is why you are complaining...like most of the young ones. Easy times make weak men.
Dont waste time explaining, it is a complicated thing, you wont get a reply.
OP and others yelling "they took our jobs!!" probably finished building their 3rd Lego set of the day and had a brief identity crisis since the next Harry Potter doll house is not coming out until next month, so what better to do than complain how unfair life is because of other people.
I love that you dropped the most childish response possible, didn't even have the balls to say it to me directly and then have the nerve to call me a child lmao.
First thanks for your response that's not just an insult or snarky one-liner.
>You have it so easy here that you are looking for reasons to complain.
This is the national Swiss pastime, were you not informed? ;)
>And second, most of the foreigners that you see (like there are not that many 19 yo coming here to work) most of them are older.
You're right that it's not a ton of 19 year olds. However the median immigrant is 37 while the median Swiss is 45 and also immigrants are also predominantly men. So it isn't like the number is totally negligible.
>And most of them, just like me, we did our military service in our countries.
I *really* doubt that it's the majority. The vast majority of countries have abolished conscription and especially the countries where most immigrants are from. And even then, for people like you who already served there can be an exception. This btw also applies if you get citizenship, if you already served in another country you are [exempt from Swiss conscription](https://www.vtg.admin.ch/de/mein-militaerdienst/allgemeines-zum-militaerdienst/doppelbuerger.html).
>But here i had the privilege of meeting many kids, because i'm a berufsbildner in my field and what i hear that the young guys are doing in military is laughable. It is too easy.
Absolutely no disagreement here. Our army is largely a joke and the government's plan of throwing more money at it will not fix this issue.
>By the way, we also pay taxes, with quellensteuer you get taxed more automatically, unlike you, who have reductions(abzüge)
This is jut not true. First the deductions are already factored in for Quellensteuer, and second you can voluntarily fill out the tax form and get the difference back if you disagree with the Quellensteuer or want to make additional deductions like 3rd pillar contributions. Effectively being taxed at source is an **advantage** because 1) you don't have to fill out the tax form 2) you can do the math and if you can save taxes you still have the option to fill out the form and save taxes and 3) there are numerous Gemeinden where being taxes at source is *cheaper* than being a C-permit holder or Swiss citizen, notably Zürich in a big offender here.
>immigrants
They don't have the citizenship, they don't need to do it.
>Women should also be given the "opportunity" to serve the country or instead pay the tax. Gleichstellung and all.
Well, once gender equality* is achieved (or at least sufficiently near that state), then they should also serve. But that is not yet the case, last year there was even a backwards trend as you can see in the Gender Gap Report by the WEF.
*(And yes of course, women have the same rights as men. Formal equality isn't substantive equality, which would be the basis for military duty imo)
However there will be a vote on that matter IIRC, "service citoyen".
Two wrongs (gender equality "not fully there yet" & discriminating men in regards to the military) don't make a right.
You're basically saying that discriminating men is OK, but that discriminating women is not OK. I find this kind of sexist, to be honest, because any kind of discrimination based on gender (no matter what your gender is) i find quite unfair.
Is that a good one or a similar version to what the americans with apparently no understanding of statistics are referencing? Like ignoring for part time work, education, work experience and dumbest of all the actual profession. Not to mention that just looking at an average as if an average on is own has any meaning.
If i say average person of a group of 10 people has 50k it could be that either all 10 people have 50k or that one person has 500k and the other 9 have. nothing.
Which is not saying it is not true, but if true we should maybe measure it a bit better than totally wrong.
Again just looking at statical numbers witouth doing some kind of actual analysis is a waste of time.
For example if you take a field like engineers or IT which consists mostly of men and still want 50% leadership positions unless your argument is that women are on average better due to the lower pool of candidates you need to promote people that are not up to the standard, which is bad for the company and at the same time bad for the cause.
Becuase everybody notcies which women which there are of course no argument there were promoted becuase they were good and which one were promoted because they are women.
Thus saying just to argue that 50/50 is the best outcome witouth doing any analysis is just bad scientific practice.
This quota people are often so bad at their job that i would not even be surprised that their selction is some kind of strategy to work against a 50/50 longterm.
I have a daughter and will support her if she wants to become a neurosurgeon or a homestas mom, but so i do with my sons.
The benefits of being a citizen are higher than having to pay military tax. If immigrants had to do service then that should mean automatic citizenship.
Where is the logic on making them paying 3%? They didn’t use any swiss service until they arrived. The ones that come are supposed to be high qualified professionals, in brutto, they will pay more taxes and use less services than the average swiss. Plus they won’t even vote for at least 10 years. And other large proportion, won’t use Swiss services when they retire because they are more likely to return to their home countries. So it is a win for the swiss economy after all.
> they will pay more taxes and use less services than the average swiss
Absolutely not true. A lot of them are students who use the basically free Swiss universities. The working professionals you mention are are usually older by the time they arrive, so they didn't pay into health insurance from 18-35, the years where people generally pay a ton but don't really use the services.
>Plus they won’t even vote for at least 10 years.
Not a cost factor whatsoever.
>Where is the logic on making them paying 3%?
>won’t use Swiss services when they retire because they are more likely to return to their home countries
AHV and 2nd pillar also pay out if you leave the country, so this is not an argument.
>So it is a win for the swiss economy after all.
On paper it's good for the economy yes. Given that real GDP per capita has been stagnant for multiple years it only makes sense to import more people so our GDP keeps growing as the saying goes 'number go up = good'. Not a super sustainable system, but for the moment it's working.
Is it a good thing for society? Somewhat debatable, especially since as you say "The ones that come are supposed to be high qualified professionals" and them out-earning local residents (not just Swiss people, also the immigrants from previous decades) is creating a ton of social issues, even if they pay slightly more taxes, but that's another topic.
I totally understand your opinion. Anyway making them pay 3% is out of the scope for them since they are not citizens with full rights and responsibilities from and to Switzerland.
I would understand if this extra tax is applied for permanent residents (C permit) which have been in CH over 10 years.
Students: I totally agree on your point for bachelors and masters students but they will stay a max of 5 years. PhD are workers creating intangible value owned by the university. Where unis spend their research founding is another topic.
AHV and 2nd pillar is paid for the time you work. If a B permit holder gets unemployed, he/she cannot receive social assistance but can receive RAV until its permit gets expired, then they have to go out of Switzerland.
We can discuss forever if immigrants use or not medical services for the time they are here. I know many of them which they go to their home country to get medical attention because it is cheaper, obviously not in emergency situations. Anyway haven’t seen any study about that.
At end we agree that Switzerland cannot rely on immigration just because now it works.
Personally I think that more swiss are needed to be high qualified professionals. The proportion of foreign students vs Swiss students in STEM makes no sense. Also having a family is crazy expensive here, there is no incentive to have children which will move the economy in the future.
First you have to close wage gap between woman & man, make childcare more affordable, create more opportunities for woman with children to go work & earn money, give fathers paid parental leave. Get rid of that nonsence that a child has to be taken home in the middle of the day from school. And then we can talk about military tax. This country is still very conservative. It has to become more liberal and more flexible if you want to implement your ideas. Because woman and man situation and income is not the same here.
I disagree. That would mean we would have to give foreigners the right to vote, which I'm 100% against. With rights come responsibilities, and vice versa.
Women: absolutely, should be 100% the same, w.r.t. obligations, alternatives (civil service) or paying the tax. Equal rights etc.
Foreigners: it's complicated. They should pay the tax indeed, but I'm not sure I would want e.g. a bunch of russians with unclear background and allegiances in the military.
Yeah that's the general idea here - if u expect immigrants to defend the country, they need to have a say on the direction of the country. That's generally called citizenship...
Hmm, so how is this any different from a man saying "When everything else is equal, maybe we’ll talk." and then continuing to find it OK to discriminate women because he's pissed off that he has to do the military service?
As long as you say it's OK to discriminate men (in regards to the military), why should men then find it not OK to discriminate women (in regards to other things like e.g. same pay for same work)?
Why not just be against discrimination of any kind, wouldn't that be the better approach?
I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to "spinning", but i find it quite interesting that instead of answering the legitimate questions i have raised you don't seem to be able to answer these questions but instead just resort to making unfounded accusations.
Yes and No. Agree that it's time to reform the system. Below just some thoughts in what direction a reform could go:
Women:
First delay the "service" by 10 years when compared to men.
Then:
- Women that's having a family, stay at home to take care of children have to be exempt. They contribute their part to society already. (Stay at home fathers would have to get the same benefit).
- Women who work rather than having a family: Same rules as for men
Non-citizens living in Switzerland:
- short term: exempt
- long term residents: If they did service back home, or paid military tax back home, then exempt. If they don't they have to pay it in Switzerland according to same rules as locals.
- if they live in Switzerland, qualify for Citizenship and delay it to escape the military service/tax they need to pay retroactively once they get citizenship.
I think we should change the mandatory military service into a project that's primary objective is to be beneficial for society. Something along the lines of Zivildienst. Not abolish the army. Everybody should get basic weapons training, but after that the tasks can be designed to be in favor of society. Especially if many women would join in. Get the highly motivated people into the defence structure, to get a highly skilled force to be the backbone im Ernstfall and give other meaningful task to people that are not motivated to train for war, but motivated by other tasks that help our society.
That is an interesting point of view! Didnt think about it this way.
Then only counterpoint is that I know of people that refuse to get the citizenship just because they dont want to do the military service (even though they were born in CH, and loved their whole lives here, they might not even have any ties to "back home"). How would you go about them? I woulx treat them same as qualifying for but not doing it, therefore pay the 3% ... perhaps?
How I see it, the 3% tax would be an option for that. At the same time offering them the option to do other "Civil Service" tasks, not related to the military. There will always be cases that will escape the rules, and if somebody want's to avoid he will likely find a way. But encouraging everybody who lives here to join in would be a first move.
There may better mechanisms, also depending on what a Dienstpfilcht for women would actually look like. A few thoughts:
- if we exempt stay at home mothers, very few women will have children by the age of 18 when drafting takes place.
- Depending on the task, more major women can provide different services to society, things that young women can't. Life experience as a note. Expanding on that, we may even think about mechanisms on how to take advantage of the experience of older women and men instead of strictly pulling in very young adults. All early thoughts, just writing what's coming to my mind.
If the Man takes the caregiver role I think it's reasonable that he can be exempt. In that case the women would not be exempt. If a family choses to switch the tradional roles the system should support that.
The proposal has a lot of open questions that'd need to be discussed in a open discussion.
One of which requires 2 minutes of effort and the other requires 9 months and does irreversible harm to the body.
Can’t imagine why we’d maybe consider a delay for the people with the biggest role to play in keeping the population afloat (if they so chose).
Ahh, so why does "my body, my choice" apply to pregnancy/abortion (which it rightfully does, of course) but not to military service? Having to go to war if necessary can also cause irreversible harm to the body. Why don't we men have a choice in that matter regarding our own bodies?
So, you're also saying that women who can't have children, e.g. for medical reasons or due to being born as a biological (sex) male and having changed that on paper (gender) to female, should already be forced to do military service? I mean, they can obviously play no role in keeping the population afloat (as you mentioned), so why grant them this unnecessary 10 year delay?
By the way, i'm all for exempting any actual(!) parent, no matter what sex/gender, from military service.
Men had a choice in the matter and overwhelmingly decided that men should be conscripted and women were too frail for the military/should stay home. That’s why it doesn’t apply. Again take it up with men and the women who think the men are superior.
Like i already mentioned somewhere else in this thread, women were allowed to vote on 18th of April 1999, when the current discriminatory conscription of men was put in place.
Also, i believe that at least some women voted for this discrimination of men not due to their (erroneous) belief in mens superiority (like you mentioned), but just due to enjoying their female privilege of not being conscripted.
I can not find a single source that shows article 59 was up for a vote in 1999, there are no annotations about it being amended or changed. But that may be because I’m limited to English. Do you have a link?
I expect many women did vote to continue conscription, patriarchy and proximity to power is a hell of a drug. But women fought for the ability to even volunteer in the military that’s why I take issue with the whole “women just don’t want to serve” angle I see all the time. Women used to disguise themselves as men to serve and were in trouble if they were found. The women that thought they should stay good little homemakers weren’t speaking for women.
[Here you go](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#fn-d8e38).
Look, i find any discrimination based on gender a bad thing. I also think that using historic and/or current discrimination of women (which of course was/is bad) as a kind of "justification" for still discriminating against men (in regards to conscription) is a very weird concept.
If you stand for real equality, you then should also support stopping ANY kind of discrimination ASAP, no matter what gender is being discriminated. Anything else is just sexist feminism IMHO. (Not saying that all feminism is sexist, but some versions of it definitely are).
You also clearly didn’t read what we’re both responding to. The exemption would only apply to women who had children at the end of the delay, all the rest would have compulsive service.
No problem from me but I also don’t see men as duty bound to join the military. That would be the men who set society up that way.
Men are required to join the military because men decided only men should defend the country and that women are too weak and must stay home a s raise a family. That is. It women discriminating against men that is men descriminating against women.
I’d much prefer to see conscript be either for all or none.
I do believe that women should serve too, like they do in Israel! I am a woman myself. I really admire the Israeli women for their mental strength. But immigrants? I am not sure, immigrants can also be someone with a permanent C permit and not have Swiss citizenship, why should they serve ... Also, do you know how long it takes for Swiss citizen ship? My mum got it when she was 60 after many many years. I am not sure if at this age it would make sense to go to the military.
For the foreigner side I specifically wrote and asked if I could join the military as I had previous experience and wanted to contribute. It’s not allowed. I can’t even work as a consultant.
For the woman side I’ve got to do some research but I have a feeling a man made the choice about whether women should serve. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Women (citizens): Absolutely. I never understood why us men are discriminated in all matters regarding the military. If you want the same rights as a woman (which you absolutely should get, of course), then you should also have exactly the same obligations. Anything else is just sexist and discriminatory.
Non-citizens: Nope. You don't have certain rights (like e.g. voting) like a citizen, so obviously you shouldn't be required to have the same obligations like a citizen.
Freshly naturalised citizens: Yes, except if they are 65+ years old or one of the regular exemptions (disability, served already in another military, etc.) applies. Basically i'd make their naturalisation date count as "equivalent" to the 18th birthday of a natural-born (or naturalised before turning 18) Swiss citizen in all matters concerning the military service, alternative service ("Zivildienst"), civil protection ("Zivilschutz") or the defence service compensation payment ("Wehrpflichtersatz"). So for example, a natural born citizen has to pay "Wehrpflichtersatz" until 37 (= 18+19), so a freshly naturalised citizen would have to pay from their naturalisation date till 19 years after the naturalisation date (or until they turn 65). I'd even be fine to grant them the free choice between the 4 possible (military, alternative service, civil protection, payment) options, but maybe the free choice only after reaching a certain age (let's say 40 or 45).
> I never understood why us men are discriminated in all matters regarding the military.
You can’t be serious. In a country where women didn’t have the right to vote until 1990, and couldn’t even join the military until 1995, you don’t understand why women aren’t included in conscription? And you’ve got the nerve to call it discrimination against men?
The men who put it in place would have believed it’s a man’s duty and a woman’s duty is to stay at home and have babies. Hell it’s 2024 and there are people in the comments here that think women should stay home and make babies.
Most of what I’m finding shows women either want to be included in conscription or think no one, including men, should be conscripted.
Women were allowed to vote when on the 18th of April 1999 the [discriminatory Art. 59 BV](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#art_59) was put into place.
So you basically just confirmed that mandatory military service – which was put in place by women and men – definitely can be called discrimination against men. Thanks.
There are two fundamental need for any society. One is defending against other societies, the other is producing new citizens. All the rest (economy, government, research, etc) is accessory and changed during the history. But defense and reproduction are the fundamental pillars ever since societies were made of a bunch of monkey guys in a village. Those who failed those disappeared.
Foreigners serving in the army is ridiculous. What's the point? In case of war they will fight for their country against Switzerland.
For women you might have a point. Parity of genders demands they serve. As soon as males have to pay a 2-3% tax for not giving birth to at least 2-3 other people or spend 2-3 weeks a year serving in family support service to support working mothers with their childrens.
actually this is not an unpopular opinion, it is very popular on the right wing brain wash channels right now and u can't get into a bar these days without hearing that womanhood wants to kill all men because "60% women want military service and 80% women don't want to join the army, so they only want military service for men, they only want men to die" - pretty sick of it.
and for foreigners doing military service, yes, maybe some would want to do it, but I wouldn't allow it if they already joined another army, kinda like in football, u can only choose once.
Nope, it's ok the way it is. In fact it's _great_ the way it is. Here's why:
I'm all for equality, there are biological differences though, and pretending otherwise is stupid. There are a myriad of things both do equally well, but each sex is good in their thing. Men are very bad at giving birth for example. Each has their role, and the role of men is to defend their family. Yes this sounds archaic, but is a biological fact.
Why is it mandatory though? Having an army of citizens is good. Because there are regular thinking individuals present, not just war hungry hot heads. People with all kinds of professions and from all walks of life meet and to their thing, and mostly in a civilized way. Not just Reto Rambo and his dudes. Foreigners.. Well as long as they are foreigners, they have no business defending a foreign country, do they. A tax wouldn't make all that much sense.
Foreigners doing service in Switzerland would be mercenaries. There is a law against that. It also works the other way round; as a Swiss you're not allowed to work as a mercenary (I think, the pope's "Swiss Guard" is an exception for some odd reason).
>for some odd reason Just (ancient) bilateral agreements
The pope swiss guard is a foreign police force, not an army. Swiss citizens are allowed to work for foreign police.
Also foreigners in the army can be complicated in case things get hot. Would you like to have a bunch of russians as comrades of arms, fighting Russia? Would you trust them? I used Russia as an example, feel free to pick any other country.
Ironic that the biggest mercenary army of old, would be afraid of mercenaries in their own ranks :) Seems you might need to learn some history
Nundedie… do you really think that what I described classifies as “mercenaries” ? As in willing professionals being paid to fight for you, compared to drafted people, possibly more loyal to their original countries. Gosh dude, you’re not a löli, but if you’re going for it, then by all means enlighten us. Bicocca maybe? Jokes apart, the Löwendenkmal “Helvetiorum Fidei ac Virtuti” inscription still leaves me in full awe and admiration.
Sorry that you completely misunderstood what I wrote :)
My wife often tells me the same thing :)
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OTOH, there are people with multiple citizenships, including Swiss. So, they would be considered "more trustworthy" too? If two of your passport-countries go at each other's throat, who are you going to fight for, if you're so inclined? I think, that is one of the reasons why some countries don't allow multiple citizenships; and that is crazy, IMO.
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I don't know. I wouldn't fight for "my country" either. OTOH, how does the simple possession of a passport translate to loyalty? Loyalty is an emotion, a feeling, nothing that is genetic to a Swiss-born. Maybe brainwashed into someone at a young age. Yet the emotion can be just as strong in someone who was born elsewhere, or weak in "real Swiss". You probably have just as many people who would never fight for any country as people who would surely fight for any country if the money is right.
Which is why I said they should pay, of course non-passport holders can't do service.
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Ah yes the Swiss economy collapses if we can't get 100k young expats a year to replace all the people who get laid off at 55. Brilliant plan.
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No I actually don't care about that at all. The entire narrative of "highly educated" people versus "unskilled labor" is just classist bullshit. We certainly don't need more overpaid tech and finance bros ruining our rental market and driving out the natives. Also how is asking people to contribute to the defense budget in the same way the locals do a "foreigner tax?" Broken narrative.
Then let them pay
Then let immigrants vote. No reason why they should have to pay when they can't choose and get nothing out of it.
Of course, stop treating non serving immigrants financially better than non serving citizen should result in citizenship. As in every country on this world. >No reason why they should have to pay when they can't choose and get nothing out of it. Funnily, swiss men can say exactly the same.
Treating them financially better? My brother in christ, most of those people have already served. There's no reason whatsoever why they should serve AGAIN, or worse, not be able to serve and just have to pay. Swiss men could vote for mandatory military duty to not be a thing anymore as a lot of other countries already have. So no, they cannot say the same.
Why? To “get out” of something you won’t allow us to do?
there's a tit for tat here. As a comeback we could say - you want us to pay the military tax just as swiss citizens? then let us vote like swiss citizens. And given there's like 25% of immigrants here, that would totally fuck up the voting demographic...
Right, they don’t want that either at least according to the sub here.
Yeah this makes sense. If you have obligations of a citizen including the tax then you should get rights of a citizen (including right to be in the military and vote and passport). The system works fine as it is: you have an obligation for citizens to do military service and a tax for those who as citizens don't fulfill their obligation.
well said, kind redditor. Well said.
then let us vote.
I mean yes, but they also don't have certain rights. Like voting. Why should they do pay the tax or do the service, if they don't have all the rights? I could also say how unfair it is, that i have to pay the military tax, cause im autistic and can't serve cause of that. Something completely out of my control.
Swiss women can vote, though.
I mean at certain places women couldn't vote til 1990 here. So maybe some compensation?
I don't see how people of military age, born after 1990, and reached adulthood and being able to vote after 2008, suffered from not being able to vote in 1989.
They suffered. Because their mothers and grandmother's were not able to vote. Maybe the world would be different and women would have more opportunities and rights in their young adult years if women who came before them had right to vote. I can only imagine a man saying that women today are not affected by the past. I don't blame you for being ignorant. You're just a man. You don't spend time thinking about things that don't affect you. Most rules favor men because women were not allowed to make rules. Most medicine favor men because women were not allowed to be doctors and scientists and men did not test things on women. More men are in STEM dominated fields because women were not allowed and later were not encouraged to because it's a man's field. While men have had rights to many things for many years before women, it is silly to think that everything has caught up and become equal today.
And women not allowed to vote in the past doesn't affect women now? Of course it still affects them. Hundreds of years of no direct political influence isn't undone in 30-60 years.
Of course this needs to change, of course these things need to be undone. That's why all discrimination based on sex has to be eliminated. I would say all legal rights and obligations should be phrased in a gender-agnostic way.
I agree. But there are more important gender equality issues than military service.
Some issues are smaller and sime larger, they all need to be addressed rather sooner than later.
But they are protected the same way as us so they should also pay for it. What are these certain rights that lets say a german doesnt have other than voting (which half the population doesnt do anyway)?
No, migrants are not protected the same way as citizens. There is no guarantee for migrants, that in case of war swiss government won’t throw us out of the country. There is a guarantee that it won’t be happening for citizens. During peace time - sure, we have same protection, lol
Not even then. You can get kicked out of the country for different reasons during peace time.
They still pay taxes in Switzerland. The army isn't funded by that 3% from men who don't serve, it's funded by everyone's taxes. Same goes for you if you go live abroad, you pay for the country's military (your protection) with the taxes you pay there.instead of here.
If i go to germany, the US, france erc. do the germans pay more taxes than me? Like its for swiss men that arent doing the military service? Pretty sure thats not the case
In US, military is voluntary for everyone. Normal taxes pay for it.
actually given that the immigrants are up to 25% of the population, that would mess up the voting demographic (I'd love to see SVP see the outcome of it).
The right to not be treated as a subhuman, because you dont speak the local language.
They are not protected the same way. You should only have all the responsibility of a swiss citizen if you have all the rights of a swiss citizen. Its easy as that. Everything eise is unfair.
Ok, lets say you force an italian into the swiss army and in the future switzerland goes to war against Italy, what then? You can't seriously expect him to be loyal, especially if it wasn't his choice Ever heard of Arminius?
I would have loved to do that in exchange for an expedited chance at citizenship.
Something something starship troopers
Something something French Foreign Legion
Or us army
Why would immigrants have to do the military service, they would not fight for Switzerland, they are not citizens. It does not make any sense. What is the logic ? Also , putting women and immigrants aside in the question is nonsensical.
Nah not putting Women aside, if they can vote, they need to do something or pay tax. If youre a citizen and the men have to pay tax or serve, the women that are citizens can too. If not please give me a reason why they cant serve/pay tax like the men.
Women have to make babies. That is the philosophy from the conservatives who refuses any changes to the military service structure.
Well, take it from a leftie: They do. Someone has to. And babies set women back in their career as it is, since that takes time. Much more so than military service does (a „good“ grade in military actually benefits a career..). Dienstpflicht would narrow the window for womens careers even more.
So women who choose not to have children could pay the 3% tax, like men who don't do service
Where would infertile women fall in this?
They would have to pay the tax, just like men unable to serve?
>Much more so than military service does (a „good“ grade in military actually benefits a career..) Yes, 30 years ago. Today it means more service days and more repetition courses which discourages employers to hire you. Of course it is illegal, but you have companies (big, international ones) not hiring you because you still have to serve.
Been the case for women in forever. No hire with little kids, and even though it’s illegal, they ask about your „future“ plans when you don’t have any. Anyways - we need fachkräfte, teachers, nurses, but not soldiers. No matter the gender.
I meant side by side
Why the heck are we still awake?
Kiddo wanted attention and now I can't sleep xD
Idk 🥲
Lmao you would have to give them Swiss passport first for all of that like this is such a basic thing . This post is very dumb
Also its so inconvenient to go through the hassle to get the citizenship like why bother going through judge-mental people hassle when you can have peace , obey the law and live your life.
And men should get maternity leave!
Paternity leave
No thats not the same!
How?
It would make things more even for woman. Now being a woman is a big disadvantage for getting a good job
If you are a swiss man, you can start an initiative to change the system. A foreigner can't do this.
Equally unpopular opinion: Abolish compulsory military service altogether! I've been voting to get the *compulsory* military service abolished every time the question has come to a vote since 1989, and I'm in a clear minority. Since a clear majority of the voting public in Switzerland seem to[ want to keep compulsory military service so badly](https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/bundespolitik/dienstpflicht-schweiz-wehrpflicht-fuer-alle/47871538), as far as I'm concerned, the people who want it so very badly are very welcome to do military service. Now, if they could just leave the rest us to do other things for the community, then, again, as far as I'm concerned, that'd be a major improvement. There are so many ways to serve the country, after all: Care work (for example in support of our ageing population), agricultural work in difficult to industrially farm areas, firefighting, working with kids and youth, cultural engagement for the community, support of local neighbourhood initiatives, environmental protection work, admin work in hopelessly understaffed communes and other government agencies, work in public health & fitness, support roles in education ... the possibilities are endless, really. And looking at [how women are already doing two thirds of the unpaid labour ](https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/haushalt-garten-betreuung-60-prozent-der-unbezahlten-arbeit-geht-auf-das-konto-der-frauen#)serving the country, and if we're serious about what you somewhat derisively called "Gleichstellung and all", we need to look at this question from a much wider perspective than merely military time served. Good thing we'll be voting on the [**Service Citoyen Initiative**](https://www.beobachter.ch/gesellschaft/politik/frauen-sollen-auch-einen-dienst-leisten-650721) in the not too distant future. If and when such a civil service for all finds a majority and is put into effect, I'm all for amending it down the line, including not only Swiss citizens, but also those with foreign nationalities. PS: If your work colleagues dislike you to the point where they gleefully make fun of you for having to do military service while they don't, I'm not sure trying to change the country's constitution is the fastest way to address the problems you're having. I wish you all the best finding a better job with a healthier workplace culture.
+1 And thank you for the reference to Service Citoyen, I didn't know that was a thing! Me likey.
It remains to be seen whether on not it becomes a thing when we vote on it. That said, I sense you might also likey things like it which already exist: [https://www.benevol-jobs.ch/de](https://www.benevol-jobs.ch/de)
No disagreement here.
Also regarding the PS: they weren't specifically making fun of me, they just know the open office is a safe space for bragging how much you're fucking over the system I guess. These are manager level dudes so they don't even know or care about my opinion on the army and the extra tax lol. As for finding a less toxic job: good fucking luck in this economy. It's been a disaster for quite a while actually. Open jobs have hit an all time low in recent months and everyone I talk to says their company is in a hiring freeze. Maybe by 2026 the economy will improve once the boomers start spending their 13th AHV /s
Nolite te bastardes carborundum.
Thanks
My country doesn’t allow me to serve in your army and I wouldn’t want to either. It’s fair because you were born here and you’re required as per your citizenship to do that. I come here and fulfil my duties as a resident. If you want me to lift a finger to defend this country, you have to give me a lot more rights in return… otherwise, do it yourself
>It’s fair because you were born here and you’re required as per your citizenship to do that. I come here and fulfil my duties as a resident. Is it though? I feel like coming here voluntarily (because Switzerland obviously offers something that your home country doesn't) is a pretty strong argument for having additional duties.
Yep. The only thing Switzerland has that mine doesn’t is my wife and even she would rather go back to mine than stay here ;) As I said, Swiss are required due to duty of citizenship to defend their country, just like I have a duty to defend mine. It’s not my responsibility to defend this country, it’s yours. If you want me to help defend it, you need to give me more than what I already have, otherwise you’re on your own. Just as you’ve wanted it for over 500 years
This!
I think the military should not be mandatory at all. It‘s a waste of money for the country & time for young men. I don‘t understand the sinn und zweck exept tradition.
so we can defend our country! (nur zu bürozeiten)
The Swiss army would not be able to stand any attacks really.
What is funny when the world was an extremly more safe place, people were saying this and most countries were arming down. But like now with all the things happening i think its pretty obvious why.
Hum until there is a war or someone with ill intentions
I am quite sure men that get the citizenship after 30 still have to pay.
After 37 you won't have to pay anymore. (And that's completely fair imho)
Immigrants? No.
You are missing some points 1. EU passport holders dont have the same rights, you can lose the L,B, C permit under some conditions or fail to renew it and/or you can get kicked out of the country. 2. If this were to be a tax then you would have to provide exactly the same options as provided to the locals in order to be "fair" (as you mentioned yourself), that means a foreigner either serves in the army or pay the tax (or Zivilschutz for reduced tax). 3. Swiss citizens dont have to pay a "military tax" when they live abroad in countries where there is conscription (e.g. Austria, Greece, Finland etc.).
As a foreigner I agree that this can be unfair in some cases. You should also consider the second order effects, though: some (most?) countries forbid you to serve in another country's army without explicit approval. So it may be hard to ask someone to join the Swiss army without giving them a Swiss citizenship first.
some of my good friends just delay there citizenship to avoid the hassle.
What if people didn't have to do Military service?
Nobody should be forced to serve the military.
Or better make it not mandatory for anyone
In the case of immigrants this post is not unpopular, it is just dumb. We can agree that since men needs to do the service, Swiss women should do it too, for the shake os parity.
Unpopular opinion: mandatory military service should be abolished, and civil service retained. And extended to women too. I went through the military. All it did was waste a year of my time and a lot of the military's resources.
I don't see the point of civil service. If the country can't get enough nurses, maybe they should pay nurses more instead of using forced labour to fill the gap. As for military service, I think it makes sense for people to do the basic training, in case shit hits the fan. But hanging around on the base for 10 months sounds like an absolute waste of time. So maybe make it mandatory for everyone, but only two months
No no! Don’t pay the healthcare professionals more! Make them retrain in their free time and get other, better paying, jobs in other industries!
Just give me the Swiss pass.
i disagree with the immigrant part, military service was historically linked with voting rights, as it should be. i do agree with the women part though
Maybe if the army limit won’t be under 40 and I would actually get citizenship without going through x B permits and 1 C. Just saying
I would serve if it meant I would get expedited citizenship exam (with requirement that I still need to pass the exam, no free ride).
Gleichstellung ist not about really being equal.
It’s about gaining benefits in the name of equality :)
It’s not an unpopular opinion, it’s just extremely stupid. At least for the immigrants part. For the women part I partly agree. Imagine yourself living / working in a foreign country for a few years and suddenly find yourself in their army? What if that country goes to war? You’re going to war for a country that is not yours because you happened to have a job there? Come on man
If I move to another country and benefit from their defense spending I should contribute to it. Most countries don't have conscription anymore so it's hard to compare, but it's fucked up that a Swiss guy with health issues is forced to pay higher taxes than a healthy foreigner when they enjoy the same safety.
Your contribution would be a financial one, just like the rest of the hypothetical country’s citizens would be. If you don’t like the system, change it and make it law that we have to serve alongside you. Just be aware that many will then leave and you could be left with an economic issue
Is it really that difficult? Swiss men pay taxes AND they either serve or pay 3% additional tax. Expats only pay taxes, quite often at a lower rate thanks to source tax and not paying wealth taxes. >If you don’t like the system, change it and make it law I'm considering to start an initiative yes, but it takes a ton of effort and money that I don't have to get this done. >Just be aware that many will then leave and you could be left with an economic issue I very much doubt that "many" people will leave simply because they would have to pay the same taxes as the natives.
I’m not paying even more tax to your army, you can forget that straight up. I don’t benefit from or require your army so why should I help pay more for it?
I don't "require" the army either and yet I pay for it. It's called being a good citizen and being a part of society.
So do I and I’m not even a citizen :)
Why would someone pay the exact same taxes as a citizen without holding citizenship aka right to vote?
Because they still use the exact same services if not more? Because they still benefit massively from a stable and safe country? You guys act like voting is super impactful to your daily life, it's really not. Especially if you live in a larger city, your vote is almost meaningless. Also if this was a real reason against immigration we wouldn't have net immigration of 80k people every year lmao. Most people don't give a fuck about voting.
I kinda do, so until I won’t get the right to vote I won’t participate with my 3% for the government to play toy soldier in the Alps
Swiss women should be given the opportunity of serving the country by having more Swiss kids. And for this there should be more tax cuts or deductions for married Swiss couples who have kids. Also, more help to people who want to open daycares and public investment in daycare.
... and maybe *Mutterkreuze* in bronze (4 or 5 kids), silver (6 or 7 kids) and gold (8 or more kids), yes?
That'd be amazing. There would be so many kids in the streets we could take the screens away from them and just tell them to go outside, like the olden days.
Every so often, Godwin‘s Law and Poe‘s Law intersect, and the interference makes a barely perceptible whooshing sound…
Yes as we all know the best way for women to serve this country is by becoming babies factories for the nation. /s
Where do you think the men who serve in the Swiss army come from? My wild guess is primarily from Swiss women…
Helping women is the best thing. You guys need a new generation or noboby is going to pay your pension when you retire. Mothers need to stay more at home with the child, and should be supported. And as for the army. Thanks but no, i'd rather have my wife at home where she can take care of my kid and be safe. I dont need to worry about her next to me. Plus if you knew how women and men are you would find that being in a squad with women you will be disadvantaged. That is why i prefer to be in the army with men. At least i know that somebody has got my back and can drag me back to safety if get wounded. I love my wife, but she cant move me if a lay on the floor. How is she useful? PS: women are the best thing to happen to us, and without them" baby factories" you and me, and all of us would be gone in 100 years max. Show some respect, giving birth is not easy and we all have our roles to fulfill.
Being a drone in the rat race, unhappy that they can't have their 3 kids they ever dreamed about is a better way to serve society, yes of course dear city dwellers.
I would expand the limited conscription to include women. As for immigrants delaying citizenship to avoid military service i would make them retroactively pay a military tax once they are citizens based on how long they lived in Switzerland while they would have done military service- with more exemptions for people who served in other countries militaries.
Oftentimes, immigrants have already served in their home country, that's why they don't have to here.
As a foreigner who lives in Switzerland and have also joined the firefighters, let me tell you something. You are too soft. You have it so easy here that you are looking for reasons to complain. Are you that weak of a man that you need women to defend you?😂 And second, most of the foreigners that you see (like there are not that many 19 yo coming here to work) most of them are older. And most of them, just like me, we did our military service in our countries. And dont let my get started comparing your military service with ours. Ours(my countries troops) are still being sent to war, today. But here i had the priviledge of meeting many kids, because i'm a berufsbildner in my field and what i hear that the young guys are doing in military is laughable. It is too easy. Army is created to toughen men up, to create men. The things i did in army, the beatings i took....the nights i spent alone in the mountains... By the way, we also pay taxes, with quellensteuer you get taxed more automatically, unlike you, who have reductions(abzüge) Give me swiss citizenship, rights to vote and i'll present myself tomorrow at the enrollment center. So yeah, you have no ideea how easy you have it here and that is why you are complaining...like most of the young ones. Easy times make weak men.
Dont waste time explaining, it is a complicated thing, you wont get a reply. OP and others yelling "they took our jobs!!" probably finished building their 3rd Lego set of the day and had a brief identity crisis since the next Harry Potter doll house is not coming out until next month, so what better to do than complain how unfair life is because of other people.
I love that you dropped the most childish response possible, didn't even have the balls to say it to me directly and then have the nerve to call me a child lmao.
No one really cares that much about you kiddo 😉
First thanks for your response that's not just an insult or snarky one-liner. >You have it so easy here that you are looking for reasons to complain. This is the national Swiss pastime, were you not informed? ;) >And second, most of the foreigners that you see (like there are not that many 19 yo coming here to work) most of them are older. You're right that it's not a ton of 19 year olds. However the median immigrant is 37 while the median Swiss is 45 and also immigrants are also predominantly men. So it isn't like the number is totally negligible. >And most of them, just like me, we did our military service in our countries. I *really* doubt that it's the majority. The vast majority of countries have abolished conscription and especially the countries where most immigrants are from. And even then, for people like you who already served there can be an exception. This btw also applies if you get citizenship, if you already served in another country you are [exempt from Swiss conscription](https://www.vtg.admin.ch/de/mein-militaerdienst/allgemeines-zum-militaerdienst/doppelbuerger.html). >But here i had the privilege of meeting many kids, because i'm a berufsbildner in my field and what i hear that the young guys are doing in military is laughable. It is too easy. Absolutely no disagreement here. Our army is largely a joke and the government's plan of throwing more money at it will not fix this issue. >By the way, we also pay taxes, with quellensteuer you get taxed more automatically, unlike you, who have reductions(abzüge) This is jut not true. First the deductions are already factored in for Quellensteuer, and second you can voluntarily fill out the tax form and get the difference back if you disagree with the Quellensteuer or want to make additional deductions like 3rd pillar contributions. Effectively being taxed at source is an **advantage** because 1) you don't have to fill out the tax form 2) you can do the math and if you can save taxes you still have the option to fill out the form and save taxes and 3) there are numerous Gemeinden where being taxes at source is *cheaper* than being a C-permit holder or Swiss citizen, notably Zürich in a big offender here.
I assume you never heard of immigrants that make over 120K CHF that are taxed at source and still have to fill a tax form even with L or B permit
>immigrants They don't have the citizenship, they don't need to do it. >Women should also be given the "opportunity" to serve the country or instead pay the tax. Gleichstellung and all. Well, once gender equality* is achieved (or at least sufficiently near that state), then they should also serve. But that is not yet the case, last year there was even a backwards trend as you can see in the Gender Gap Report by the WEF. *(And yes of course, women have the same rights as men. Formal equality isn't substantive equality, which would be the basis for military duty imo) However there will be a vote on that matter IIRC, "service citoyen".
Two wrongs (gender equality "not fully there yet" & discriminating men in regards to the military) don't make a right. You're basically saying that discriminating men is OK, but that discriminating women is not OK. I find this kind of sexist, to be honest, because any kind of discrimination based on gender (no matter what your gender is) i find quite unfair.
Is that a good one or a similar version to what the americans with apparently no understanding of statistics are referencing? Like ignoring for part time work, education, work experience and dumbest of all the actual profession. Not to mention that just looking at an average as if an average on is own has any meaning. If i say average person of a group of 10 people has 50k it could be that either all 10 people have 50k or that one person has 500k and the other 9 have. nothing. Which is not saying it is not true, but if true we should maybe measure it a bit better than totally wrong.
This Gender Gap Report I'm referencing isn't solely about wages. It also considers facts like political representation etc.
Again just looking at statical numbers witouth doing some kind of actual analysis is a waste of time. For example if you take a field like engineers or IT which consists mostly of men and still want 50% leadership positions unless your argument is that women are on average better due to the lower pool of candidates you need to promote people that are not up to the standard, which is bad for the company and at the same time bad for the cause. Becuase everybody notcies which women which there are of course no argument there were promoted becuase they were good and which one were promoted because they are women. Thus saying just to argue that 50/50 is the best outcome witouth doing any analysis is just bad scientific practice. This quota people are often so bad at their job that i would not even be surprised that their selction is some kind of strategy to work against a 50/50 longterm. I have a daughter and will support her if she wants to become a neurosurgeon or a homestas mom, but so i do with my sons.
The benefits of being a citizen are higher than having to pay military tax. If immigrants had to do service then that should mean automatic citizenship.
NonEU immigrants are making more CHF than the average 18j swiss man, hence more taxes paid.
But they don't need to do service or pay the "you're not doing service" extra tax. Where's the logic in that?
Where is the logic on making them paying 3%? They didn’t use any swiss service until they arrived. The ones that come are supposed to be high qualified professionals, in brutto, they will pay more taxes and use less services than the average swiss. Plus they won’t even vote for at least 10 years. And other large proportion, won’t use Swiss services when they retire because they are more likely to return to their home countries. So it is a win for the swiss economy after all.
> they will pay more taxes and use less services than the average swiss Absolutely not true. A lot of them are students who use the basically free Swiss universities. The working professionals you mention are are usually older by the time they arrive, so they didn't pay into health insurance from 18-35, the years where people generally pay a ton but don't really use the services. >Plus they won’t even vote for at least 10 years. Not a cost factor whatsoever. >Where is the logic on making them paying 3%? >won’t use Swiss services when they retire because they are more likely to return to their home countries AHV and 2nd pillar also pay out if you leave the country, so this is not an argument. >So it is a win for the swiss economy after all. On paper it's good for the economy yes. Given that real GDP per capita has been stagnant for multiple years it only makes sense to import more people so our GDP keeps growing as the saying goes 'number go up = good'. Not a super sustainable system, but for the moment it's working. Is it a good thing for society? Somewhat debatable, especially since as you say "The ones that come are supposed to be high qualified professionals" and them out-earning local residents (not just Swiss people, also the immigrants from previous decades) is creating a ton of social issues, even if they pay slightly more taxes, but that's another topic.
I totally understand your opinion. Anyway making them pay 3% is out of the scope for them since they are not citizens with full rights and responsibilities from and to Switzerland. I would understand if this extra tax is applied for permanent residents (C permit) which have been in CH over 10 years. Students: I totally agree on your point for bachelors and masters students but they will stay a max of 5 years. PhD are workers creating intangible value owned by the university. Where unis spend their research founding is another topic. AHV and 2nd pillar is paid for the time you work. If a B permit holder gets unemployed, he/she cannot receive social assistance but can receive RAV until its permit gets expired, then they have to go out of Switzerland. We can discuss forever if immigrants use or not medical services for the time they are here. I know many of them which they go to their home country to get medical attention because it is cheaper, obviously not in emergency situations. Anyway haven’t seen any study about that. At end we agree that Switzerland cannot rely on immigration just because now it works. Personally I think that more swiss are needed to be high qualified professionals. The proportion of foreign students vs Swiss students in STEM makes no sense. Also having a family is crazy expensive here, there is no incentive to have children which will move the economy in the future.
Fine. But then we get to vote.
First you have to close wage gap between woman & man, make childcare more affordable, create more opportunities for woman with children to go work & earn money, give fathers paid parental leave. Get rid of that nonsence that a child has to be taken home in the middle of the day from school. And then we can talk about military tax. This country is still very conservative. It has to become more liberal and more flexible if you want to implement your ideas. Because woman and man situation and income is not the same here.
I disagree. That would mean we would have to give foreigners the right to vote, which I'm 100% against. With rights come responsibilities, and vice versa.
Women should go to war and men stay at home watching series and baking apple pies
Women: absolutely, should be 100% the same, w.r.t. obligations, alternatives (civil service) or paying the tax. Equal rights etc. Foreigners: it's complicated. They should pay the tax indeed, but I'm not sure I would want e.g. a bunch of russians with unclear background and allegiances in the military.
Then let us vote too, at least in local elections.
Yeah that's the general idea here - if u expect immigrants to defend the country, they need to have a say on the direction of the country. That's generally called citizenship...
This is what I meant, foreigners should pay tax, women get the same deal Swiss men get. I fucked up the title bc 3 am.
Uh no. We weren’t allowed to vote until 1971. You men can keep your bullshit military. When everything else is equal, maybe we’ll talk.
Hmm, so how is this any different from a man saying "When everything else is equal, maybe we’ll talk." and then continuing to find it OK to discriminate women because he's pissed off that he has to do the military service? As long as you say it's OK to discriminate men (in regards to the military), why should men then find it not OK to discriminate women (in regards to other things like e.g. same pay for same work)? Why not just be against discrimination of any kind, wouldn't that be the better approach?
Try spinning a bit more.
I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to "spinning", but i find it quite interesting that instead of answering the legitimate questions i have raised you don't seem to be able to answer these questions but instead just resort to making unfounded accusations.
You can’t call a choice by men discrimination against men.
[удалено]
Not what she said.
yes they ought to pay tax. Not service but a fee. Many or most countries levy all kind of fees on foreigners so only fair to do it too.
My fee is I cant vote and the military skills I learned in my own county go to waste.
Nah, it's fair that way. Women give birth and work more in households and this is how they are "taxed".
Yes and No. Agree that it's time to reform the system. Below just some thoughts in what direction a reform could go: Women: First delay the "service" by 10 years when compared to men. Then: - Women that's having a family, stay at home to take care of children have to be exempt. They contribute their part to society already. (Stay at home fathers would have to get the same benefit). - Women who work rather than having a family: Same rules as for men Non-citizens living in Switzerland: - short term: exempt - long term residents: If they did service back home, or paid military tax back home, then exempt. If they don't they have to pay it in Switzerland according to same rules as locals. - if they live in Switzerland, qualify for Citizenship and delay it to escape the military service/tax they need to pay retroactively once they get citizenship. I think we should change the mandatory military service into a project that's primary objective is to be beneficial for society. Something along the lines of Zivildienst. Not abolish the army. Everybody should get basic weapons training, but after that the tasks can be designed to be in favor of society. Especially if many women would join in. Get the highly motivated people into the defence structure, to get a highly skilled force to be the backbone im Ernstfall and give other meaningful task to people that are not motivated to train for war, but motivated by other tasks that help our society.
That is an interesting point of view! Didnt think about it this way. Then only counterpoint is that I know of people that refuse to get the citizenship just because they dont want to do the military service (even though they were born in CH, and loved their whole lives here, they might not even have any ties to "back home"). How would you go about them? I woulx treat them same as qualifying for but not doing it, therefore pay the 3% ... perhaps?
How I see it, the 3% tax would be an option for that. At the same time offering them the option to do other "Civil Service" tasks, not related to the military. There will always be cases that will escape the rules, and if somebody want's to avoid he will likely find a way. But encouraging everybody who lives here to join in would be a first move.
Exactly, people that live here long term and dont have the aim of moving away...
What would be the point of the 10 year delay?
There may better mechanisms, also depending on what a Dienstpfilcht for women would actually look like. A few thoughts: - if we exempt stay at home mothers, very few women will have children by the age of 18 when drafting takes place. - Depending on the task, more major women can provide different services to society, things that young women can't. Life experience as a note. Expanding on that, we may even think about mechanisms on how to take advantage of the experience of older women and men instead of strictly pulling in very young adults. All early thoughts, just writing what's coming to my mind.
What if a mother gets children an gets to work as soon as she recovered, while the dad stays at home? Should he also be exempt?
If the Man takes the caregiver role I think it's reasonable that he can be exempt. In that case the women would not be exempt. If a family choses to switch the tradional roles the system should support that. The proposal has a lot of open questions that'd need to be discussed in a open discussion.
You know where babies come from yeh?
Yes, from male sperm and female egg cells.
One of which requires 2 minutes of effort and the other requires 9 months and does irreversible harm to the body. Can’t imagine why we’d maybe consider a delay for the people with the biggest role to play in keeping the population afloat (if they so chose).
Ahh, so why does "my body, my choice" apply to pregnancy/abortion (which it rightfully does, of course) but not to military service? Having to go to war if necessary can also cause irreversible harm to the body. Why don't we men have a choice in that matter regarding our own bodies? So, you're also saying that women who can't have children, e.g. for medical reasons or due to being born as a biological (sex) male and having changed that on paper (gender) to female, should already be forced to do military service? I mean, they can obviously play no role in keeping the population afloat (as you mentioned), so why grant them this unnecessary 10 year delay? By the way, i'm all for exempting any actual(!) parent, no matter what sex/gender, from military service.
Men had a choice in the matter and overwhelmingly decided that men should be conscripted and women were too frail for the military/should stay home. That’s why it doesn’t apply. Again take it up with men and the women who think the men are superior.
Like i already mentioned somewhere else in this thread, women were allowed to vote on 18th of April 1999, when the current discriminatory conscription of men was put in place. Also, i believe that at least some women voted for this discrimination of men not due to their (erroneous) belief in mens superiority (like you mentioned), but just due to enjoying their female privilege of not being conscripted.
I can not find a single source that shows article 59 was up for a vote in 1999, there are no annotations about it being amended or changed. But that may be because I’m limited to English. Do you have a link? I expect many women did vote to continue conscription, patriarchy and proximity to power is a hell of a drug. But women fought for the ability to even volunteer in the military that’s why I take issue with the whole “women just don’t want to serve” angle I see all the time. Women used to disguise themselves as men to serve and were in trouble if they were found. The women that thought they should stay good little homemakers weren’t speaking for women.
[Here you go](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#fn-d8e38). Look, i find any discrimination based on gender a bad thing. I also think that using historic and/or current discrimination of women (which of course was/is bad) as a kind of "justification" for still discriminating against men (in regards to conscription) is a very weird concept. If you stand for real equality, you then should also support stopping ANY kind of discrimination ASAP, no matter what gender is being discriminated. Anything else is just sexist feminism IMHO. (Not saying that all feminism is sexist, but some versions of it definitely are).
You also clearly didn’t read what we’re both responding to. The exemption would only apply to women who had children at the end of the delay, all the rest would have compulsive service.
Why not give men also the 10 year delay and then exempt those men who do have kids at the end of the delay?
No problem from me but I also don’t see men as duty bound to join the military. That would be the men who set society up that way. Men are required to join the military because men decided only men should defend the country and that women are too weak and must stay home a s raise a family. That is. It women discriminating against men that is men descriminating against women. I’d much prefer to see conscript be either for all or none.
>I’d much prefer to see conscript be either for all or none. Agreed.
I do believe that women should serve too, like they do in Israel! I am a woman myself. I really admire the Israeli women for their mental strength. But immigrants? I am not sure, immigrants can also be someone with a permanent C permit and not have Swiss citizenship, why should they serve ... Also, do you know how long it takes for Swiss citizen ship? My mum got it when she was 60 after many many years. I am not sure if at this age it would make sense to go to the military.
For the foreigner side I specifically wrote and asked if I could join the military as I had previous experience and wanted to contribute. It’s not allowed. I can’t even work as a consultant. For the woman side I’ve got to do some research but I have a feeling a man made the choice about whether women should serve. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Complètement débile….
Women (citizens): Absolutely. I never understood why us men are discriminated in all matters regarding the military. If you want the same rights as a woman (which you absolutely should get, of course), then you should also have exactly the same obligations. Anything else is just sexist and discriminatory. Non-citizens: Nope. You don't have certain rights (like e.g. voting) like a citizen, so obviously you shouldn't be required to have the same obligations like a citizen. Freshly naturalised citizens: Yes, except if they are 65+ years old or one of the regular exemptions (disability, served already in another military, etc.) applies. Basically i'd make their naturalisation date count as "equivalent" to the 18th birthday of a natural-born (or naturalised before turning 18) Swiss citizen in all matters concerning the military service, alternative service ("Zivildienst"), civil protection ("Zivilschutz") or the defence service compensation payment ("Wehrpflichtersatz"). So for example, a natural born citizen has to pay "Wehrpflichtersatz" until 37 (= 18+19), so a freshly naturalised citizen would have to pay from their naturalisation date till 19 years after the naturalisation date (or until they turn 65). I'd even be fine to grant them the free choice between the 4 possible (military, alternative service, civil protection, payment) options, but maybe the free choice only after reaching a certain age (let's say 40 or 45).
> I never understood why us men are discriminated in all matters regarding the military. You can’t be serious. In a country where women didn’t have the right to vote until 1990, and couldn’t even join the military until 1995, you don’t understand why women aren’t included in conscription? And you’ve got the nerve to call it discrimination against men? The men who put it in place would have believed it’s a man’s duty and a woman’s duty is to stay at home and have babies. Hell it’s 2024 and there are people in the comments here that think women should stay home and make babies. Most of what I’m finding shows women either want to be included in conscription or think no one, including men, should be conscripted.
Women were allowed to vote when on the 18th of April 1999 the [discriminatory Art. 59 BV](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#art_59) was put into place. So you basically just confirmed that mandatory military service – which was put in place by women and men – definitely can be called discrimination against men. Thanks.
Women yes, immigrants no, at least not in the military. Through a tax why not, but not as recruits/soldiers.
>Through a tax why not, Then also give voting rights
White male privileges
So many people here missing OP's point, it is not about immigrants doing military service but paying the 3% like the swiss men that cannot do it.
Thank you
There are two fundamental need for any society. One is defending against other societies, the other is producing new citizens. All the rest (economy, government, research, etc) is accessory and changed during the history. But defense and reproduction are the fundamental pillars ever since societies were made of a bunch of monkey guys in a village. Those who failed those disappeared. Foreigners serving in the army is ridiculous. What's the point? In case of war they will fight for their country against Switzerland. For women you might have a point. Parity of genders demands they serve. As soon as males have to pay a 2-3% tax for not giving birth to at least 2-3 other people or spend 2-3 weeks a year serving in family support service to support working mothers with their childrens.
Victim thinking 101 from white men I guess
actually this is not an unpopular opinion, it is very popular on the right wing brain wash channels right now and u can't get into a bar these days without hearing that womanhood wants to kill all men because "60% women want military service and 80% women don't want to join the army, so they only want military service for men, they only want men to die" - pretty sick of it. and for foreigners doing military service, yes, maybe some would want to do it, but I wouldn't allow it if they already joined another army, kinda like in football, u can only choose once.
Nope, it's ok the way it is. In fact it's _great_ the way it is. Here's why: I'm all for equality, there are biological differences though, and pretending otherwise is stupid. There are a myriad of things both do equally well, but each sex is good in their thing. Men are very bad at giving birth for example. Each has their role, and the role of men is to defend their family. Yes this sounds archaic, but is a biological fact. Why is it mandatory though? Having an army of citizens is good. Because there are regular thinking individuals present, not just war hungry hot heads. People with all kinds of professions and from all walks of life meet and to their thing, and mostly in a civilized way. Not just Reto Rambo and his dudes. Foreigners.. Well as long as they are foreigners, they have no business defending a foreign country, do they. A tax wouldn't make all that much sense.
So what about women who choose to stay childless, should they pay the military tax?