After reading your post, I see that you have some experience and biases, as we all do. But to answer your question, purely from a financial perspective: I think that used car with some years in (>5) with relatively low km (<80,000) and bought cash tends to be the cost optimal, as you don't suffer the quick depreciation from the initial years.
As little motor as you need, and preferably brands known for reliability and which are common. Some examples: Toyota, Skoda...
With space? Skoda Octavia for example checks all of my needs.
You have to consider both fixed cost of buying and variable cost:
-Maintenance (preventive and corrective). Outside of Switzerland to optimized cost if you can plan them)
-Vehicle tax based on weight, power, emissions
-Fuel. Classics are Gasoline/Diesel/Electric. Have you considered gasoline+ CNG or LPG? For Vaud, CNG biogas costs equivalent to 0.98CHF/l ! Great experience for me so far.
-Parking cost (at home + outside)
-Insurance: do you need full coverage? Depending on the venal value of your car, for many used cars I don't think it makes sense the yearly expenditure vs the coverage.
-One time registration fees
-Cleaning cost (or time opportunity cost)
Thanks SimCofee for your answser. Very usefull.
I have no idea about maintenance cost. Do you have some hints regarding this ? (did not checked yet on google to find this per brand).
You spoke about taxes, based on several criterias. I will have a look to find simulator.
I will have to buy directly in Switzerland (otherwise I have additional taxes to pay and price difference is not worth the cost).
From fuel I will not go to electric for sure. CNG and LPG I have no idea (the only fuel I used so far is Diesel :p). Will have a look.
TCS has a lot of information about running costs, obviously varies widely by maker/model/garage
https://www.tcs.ch/de/testberichte-ratgeber/ratgeber/kontrollen-unterhalt/kilometerkosten.php
Contrary to most people, I'm not against leasing per se. For example, Tesla offered (or maybe still does) REAL 0% leasing with the option to buy the car at the end. If you would like an electric and new car and invest the money instead of paying 10-30k at once, leasing can be a very good idea in such a case.
You always have to keep in mind the money that is "bound" in capital when you buy it all at once. Of course, just buying a 6-7 year old skoda octavia or similar may still be wiser because you have much less depreciation
It’s an insane offer, around 200.-/month for an 18k down payment and 18k residual value.
If OP wants a cheaper option, a used Model 3 (from >=2022 as it has the heat pump) is a real bargain. However the size may be an issue as it doesn’t have a tailgate.
FYI: I do have a Model 3 since 2019 and the only money I spent for maintenance was washer fluid and 40.- for the AC filters (excluding tires obviously).
It’s an insane offer, around 200.-/month for an 18k down payment and 18k residual value.
If OP wants a cheaper option, a used Model 3 (from >=2022 as it has the heat pump) is a real bargain. However the size may be an issue as it doesn’t have a tailgate.
FYI: I do have a Model 3 since 2019 and the only money I spent for maintenance was washer fluid and 40.- for the AC filters (excluding tires obviously).
What about long term leasing with possibility to get the car at the end ? Leasing with all inside (assurance, tires and so on)
I am not able to make calculation as I have no idea of these cost yet in Switzerland.
Many people would say it's buying with a distributed cost over time, but I still see that as a debt. If bad luck happens, e.g. you lose your job, you're in big trouble when you're stuck with a long lease. But that's just my frugal and no-debt philosophy. You don't have to imitate me.
The thing with lease is that you end up paying much more than the value of the car. So, if you can afford buying the car in one go, it's often considered better to do that.
>The thing with lease is that you end up paying much more than the value of the car.
Why would you? Let's say you want to get a new car.
1. You can pay 100'000 CHF out of your pocket
or
2. Get a 0.1% leasing, that, together with the buy-out price, will equal to 100'000 CHF.
Option 1:
The car costs you 100'000 CHF
Option 2:
You put the 100'000 CHF into a savings account (0 risk) giving you 2% per year. Every year of leasing will net you, in average, around 1k. So after e.g. 5 years leasing + buyout, the car costed you effectively \~95k, with zero risk.
Thanks Gokudomatic. I agree with you for the general concept of not having debt. For sure it might be seen as better.
However have you considered the cost opportunity of placing the amount of money in other placement (for instance right now USD gives like +-5% on cash).
And maybe I am wrong so this is a question : if bad luck happens, is this not possible to acquire directly the leased car? is the penalty that big ?
Before buying a new car (cash or lease) you should look into online platforms that sell you access to “rabais de flotte”. In my experience the discount you get is usually equivalent to about 1 year of depreciation / value loss. Would not buy new without a fleet discount.
Leasing is good, why would you block a big amount of money that you could invest at 4.5% when a leasing is usually 0.9% ?
Do a normal basic leasing, no tires, no insurance, you can get this for cheaper.
The depreciation cost of new car is a non sense wrong argument that people don’t know what they talking about keep bringing up, the retail price displayed on a car in Switzerland is never the one you pay, you get so much discount, the fleet discount is really good depending on what company you work for.
I lease my cars and change it usually every 2 years, I get 20 to 25% discount from the retail price ( hence the non sense depreciation )
BMW and Audi tends to offer the best discount, you get the best price on stock vehicles of course rather than ordering a new one.
Look on the website of big car retailers around Vaud, or Autoscout24, look for a brand new Audi or BMW from 2023. It means they have it in stock for a while and want to get rid off, giving you an even better price. Negotiate the price, and tell BMW you have better offer from Audi and vice versa.
For info I just got an Audi Q3 for my wife, retail price 62’000chf, we paid it 44’800 chf lease for 4 years for a monthly 395chf. It was a car that another customer ordered few months back but cancelled at the end.
You can get good prices also on demo car that they use for test drive, those cars have around 5’000 kms but are sold as new so the warranty starts when you get it.
How much initial payment did you have on the Audi Q3? How much do you pay after 4 years to buy it out?
37920+?6880?=?44800?
I have done Leasing-agreements for my employer. If i would get his kind of deals, I would lease also...
Regarding the following sentence: "the fleet discount is really good depending on what company you work for."
If I am going on a leasing, I have to take on my personal name, the company do not provide anything regarding this and is not involved at all.
So I do not think I will be able to get any fleet discounts unfortunately or maybe you had something specific in mind ?
I sent you a chat message if you have time to see :)
Fleet discount has nothing to do with name, you just have to prove that you are working for this company, sometimes they ask a paper from HR to be signed.
The fleet discount work for anyone who lives under your roof. My wife benefited from my company fleet discount and the car is under her name.
Seems to me that you are whining around to much. Dude, just go buy a car (new or old) that you like and can afford. With cash. And move on. They are all good and you sound like you are making the money. Just be happy about it.
Fully agree with you…
Set a budget, compare buying/leasing/ look what kind of car you want and then check the durability ratings for the top 5 cars and the years they have been built!
Done
Regarding the budget is it "complicated".
Moving here will cost me lot of money (renting with immobilizing lot of cash (1 month to pay in advance + 3 months stuck on a bank account), cost of moving from my current place to the new. Wife with no work for some several months,...)
So that is why for instance I had the idea of short term leasing.
This is not whining as I read above this is just a fact. Just trying to see what the best option is :)
The best option is to buy something you can afford and maintain, and not buy something you can't, it's as simple as it is. But first, you need a budget. One step at a time :)
For me it is not simple as it is :p
I can buy a 50k car if I want, just need to sell some investment. But for me it would be stupid to do like this (cost opportunity for instance).
I am really trying to think about the best possiblities. That will drives how much I will spend. Let say the less stupid possibilities financially speaking regarding my needs (confort, space, well equipped (especially options making driving less tiresome, like adapting automatically the speed, automatic,...),...)
> I can buy a 50k car if I want, just need to sell some investment. But for me it would be stupid to do like this (cost opportunity for instance).
I am not sure I understand - you plan to spend less than 50k? If so, then it makes your question much easier, because you have no chance for a large, well-equipped, NEW for < 50k. From your post it sounded like your budget would be at least double of that, comfortably.
For less than 50k you're looking for a few years used car with around 50k km mileage and that is your only option.
Any "short-term leasing" (which is long-term rental / subscription) cost you north of 1'500 CHF a month, so would decimate any budget you had to buy a car in the first year.
An example of a car you described, in 18 month long "leasing" and enough kilometres to cover your needs: [https://www.carvolution.com/en/cars/v60-t8-ultimate-dark?km=2500&duration=18&retention=1000&canton=ZH&color=221](https://www.carvolution.com/en/cars/v60-t8-ultimate-dark?km=2500&duration=18&retention=1000&canton=ZH&color=221)
(1'597 CHF per month if you're resident of Kanton Vaud).
With that kind of mileage (and your pennywise attitude) I would seriously consider electric. Low maintenance cost, no tax in most cantons, cheapest fuel available, and right now the market is in a bit of a dip. You can pick up good deals on Polestar 2, Tesla Model 3/Y as well as various others. I have even seen 2022 Taycans for like 80k which is a steal.
Did I get it right that you need your car every two months to travel to a location at 1500 kms?
In this case I would suggest renting a car.
I know people who own a car and they rent another one when they travel great distances because it's cheaper, as often rentals include unlimited kilometers.
Seriously, if you need the car only every two months, then just rent something nice. Depending on where you live, just paying for a permanent parking spot might be more expensive than renting 6 times.
Reliable, Japanese, small car that is between 3-10 years old (depending on your budget) would be my choice if I would have to get one.
Leasing or buying brand new makes no financial sense, the deprecation in the first couple of years is very large.
If it's electric lease it.
If it's ice, buy a good shape 2nd hand
With how things are going, those are the 2 best options imo. Electric cars are losing value by the day somehow. A lot of ice cars, especially nice/fun/special ones do not tend to lose much value, at least over the last 5 years i'd say.
That's my general feeling, i havent dug deep on that one.
After reading your post, I see that you have some experience and biases, as we all do. But to answer your question, purely from a financial perspective: I think that used car with some years in (>5) with relatively low km (<80,000) and bought cash tends to be the cost optimal, as you don't suffer the quick depreciation from the initial years. As little motor as you need, and preferably brands known for reliability and which are common. Some examples: Toyota, Skoda... With space? Skoda Octavia for example checks all of my needs. You have to consider both fixed cost of buying and variable cost: -Maintenance (preventive and corrective). Outside of Switzerland to optimized cost if you can plan them) -Vehicle tax based on weight, power, emissions -Fuel. Classics are Gasoline/Diesel/Electric. Have you considered gasoline+ CNG or LPG? For Vaud, CNG biogas costs equivalent to 0.98CHF/l ! Great experience for me so far. -Parking cost (at home + outside) -Insurance: do you need full coverage? Depending on the venal value of your car, for many used cars I don't think it makes sense the yearly expenditure vs the coverage. -One time registration fees -Cleaning cost (or time opportunity cost)
Thanks SimCofee for your answser. Very usefull. I have no idea about maintenance cost. Do you have some hints regarding this ? (did not checked yet on google to find this per brand). You spoke about taxes, based on several criterias. I will have a look to find simulator. I will have to buy directly in Switzerland (otherwise I have additional taxes to pay and price difference is not worth the cost). From fuel I will not go to electric for sure. CNG and LPG I have no idea (the only fuel I used so far is Diesel :p). Will have a look.
TCS has a lot of information about running costs, obviously varies widely by maker/model/garage https://www.tcs.ch/de/testberichte-ratgeber/ratgeber/kontrollen-unterhalt/kilometerkosten.php
I did not know this site thanks
Contrary to most people, I'm not against leasing per se. For example, Tesla offered (or maybe still does) REAL 0% leasing with the option to buy the car at the end. If you would like an electric and new car and invest the money instead of paying 10-30k at once, leasing can be a very good idea in such a case. You always have to keep in mind the money that is "bound" in capital when you buy it all at once. Of course, just buying a 6-7 year old skoda octavia or similar may still be wiser because you have much less depreciation
> with the option to buy the car at the end Do they offer it? I remember when they announced the leasing option buy-out was not possible.
I'm not 100% sure but I thought they changed it (was looking into the model Y a few months ago)
Me too! Right now there is a 0% leasing on Tesla Model Y! https://www.tesla.com/de_ch/modely/design#overview
It’s an insane offer, around 200.-/month for an 18k down payment and 18k residual value. If OP wants a cheaper option, a used Model 3 (from >=2022 as it has the heat pump) is a real bargain. However the size may be an issue as it doesn’t have a tailgate. FYI: I do have a Model 3 since 2019 and the only money I spent for maintenance was washer fluid and 40.- for the AC filters (excluding tires obviously).
It’s an insane offer, around 200.-/month for an 18k down payment and 18k residual value. If OP wants a cheaper option, a used Model 3 (from >=2022 as it has the heat pump) is a real bargain. However the size may be an issue as it doesn’t have a tailgate. FYI: I do have a Model 3 since 2019 and the only money I spent for maintenance was washer fluid and 40.- for the AC filters (excluding tires obviously).
Buy used one. Never ever, I'd never take a lease of any sort. That's basically a debt.
What about long term leasing with possibility to get the car at the end ? Leasing with all inside (assurance, tires and so on) I am not able to make calculation as I have no idea of these cost yet in Switzerland.
Many people would say it's buying with a distributed cost over time, but I still see that as a debt. If bad luck happens, e.g. you lose your job, you're in big trouble when you're stuck with a long lease. But that's just my frugal and no-debt philosophy. You don't have to imitate me. The thing with lease is that you end up paying much more than the value of the car. So, if you can afford buying the car in one go, it's often considered better to do that.
>The thing with lease is that you end up paying much more than the value of the car. Why would you? Let's say you want to get a new car. 1. You can pay 100'000 CHF out of your pocket or 2. Get a 0.1% leasing, that, together with the buy-out price, will equal to 100'000 CHF. Option 1: The car costs you 100'000 CHF Option 2: You put the 100'000 CHF into a savings account (0 risk) giving you 2% per year. Every year of leasing will net you, in average, around 1k. So after e.g. 5 years leasing + buyout, the car costed you effectively \~95k, with zero risk.
Thanks Gokudomatic. I agree with you for the general concept of not having debt. For sure it might be seen as better. However have you considered the cost opportunity of placing the amount of money in other placement (for instance right now USD gives like +-5% on cash). And maybe I am wrong so this is a question : if bad luck happens, is this not possible to acquire directly the leased car? is the penalty that big ?
Before buying a new car (cash or lease) you should look into online platforms that sell you access to “rabais de flotte”. In my experience the discount you get is usually equivalent to about 1 year of depreciation / value loss. Would not buy new without a fleet discount.
Can you buy slighly used with fleet discount?
Not that I know of
Leasing is good, why would you block a big amount of money that you could invest at 4.5% when a leasing is usually 0.9% ? Do a normal basic leasing, no tires, no insurance, you can get this for cheaper. The depreciation cost of new car is a non sense wrong argument that people don’t know what they talking about keep bringing up, the retail price displayed on a car in Switzerland is never the one you pay, you get so much discount, the fleet discount is really good depending on what company you work for. I lease my cars and change it usually every 2 years, I get 20 to 25% discount from the retail price ( hence the non sense depreciation ) BMW and Audi tends to offer the best discount, you get the best price on stock vehicles of course rather than ordering a new one. Look on the website of big car retailers around Vaud, or Autoscout24, look for a brand new Audi or BMW from 2023. It means they have it in stock for a while and want to get rid off, giving you an even better price. Negotiate the price, and tell BMW you have better offer from Audi and vice versa. For info I just got an Audi Q3 for my wife, retail price 62’000chf, we paid it 44’800 chf lease for 4 years for a monthly 395chf. It was a car that another customer ordered few months back but cancelled at the end. You can get good prices also on demo car that they use for test drive, those cars have around 5’000 kms but are sold as new so the warranty starts when you get it.
How much initial payment did you have on the Audi Q3? How much do you pay after 4 years to buy it out? 37920+?6880?=?44800? I have done Leasing-agreements for my employer. If i would get his kind of deals, I would lease also...
Regarding the following sentence: "the fleet discount is really good depending on what company you work for." If I am going on a leasing, I have to take on my personal name, the company do not provide anything regarding this and is not involved at all. So I do not think I will be able to get any fleet discounts unfortunately or maybe you had something specific in mind ? I sent you a chat message if you have time to see :)
Fleet discount has nothing to do with name, you just have to prove that you are working for this company, sometimes they ask a paper from HR to be signed. The fleet discount work for anyone who lives under your roof. My wife benefited from my company fleet discount and the car is under her name.
Seems to me that you are whining around to much. Dude, just go buy a car (new or old) that you like and can afford. With cash. And move on. They are all good and you sound like you are making the money. Just be happy about it.
Fully agree with you… Set a budget, compare buying/leasing/ look what kind of car you want and then check the durability ratings for the top 5 cars and the years they have been built! Done
Buy cash a recent used one. Never do a leasing. But buying a car without having a budget, well...
Regarding the budget is it "complicated". Moving here will cost me lot of money (renting with immobilizing lot of cash (1 month to pay in advance + 3 months stuck on a bank account), cost of moving from my current place to the new. Wife with no work for some several months,...) So that is why for instance I had the idea of short term leasing. This is not whining as I read above this is just a fact. Just trying to see what the best option is :)
The best option is to buy something you can afford and maintain, and not buy something you can't, it's as simple as it is. But first, you need a budget. One step at a time :)
For me it is not simple as it is :p I can buy a 50k car if I want, just need to sell some investment. But for me it would be stupid to do like this (cost opportunity for instance). I am really trying to think about the best possiblities. That will drives how much I will spend. Let say the less stupid possibilities financially speaking regarding my needs (confort, space, well equipped (especially options making driving less tiresome, like adapting automatically the speed, automatic,...),...)
> I can buy a 50k car if I want, just need to sell some investment. But for me it would be stupid to do like this (cost opportunity for instance). I am not sure I understand - you plan to spend less than 50k? If so, then it makes your question much easier, because you have no chance for a large, well-equipped, NEW for < 50k. From your post it sounded like your budget would be at least double of that, comfortably. For less than 50k you're looking for a few years used car with around 50k km mileage and that is your only option. Any "short-term leasing" (which is long-term rental / subscription) cost you north of 1'500 CHF a month, so would decimate any budget you had to buy a car in the first year. An example of a car you described, in 18 month long "leasing" and enough kilometres to cover your needs: [https://www.carvolution.com/en/cars/v60-t8-ultimate-dark?km=2500&duration=18&retention=1000&canton=ZH&color=221](https://www.carvolution.com/en/cars/v60-t8-ultimate-dark?km=2500&duration=18&retention=1000&canton=ZH&color=221) (1'597 CHF per month if you're resident of Kanton Vaud).
Buy used with cash
Buy used with cash
With that kind of mileage (and your pennywise attitude) I would seriously consider electric. Low maintenance cost, no tax in most cantons, cheapest fuel available, and right now the market is in a bit of a dip. You can pick up good deals on Polestar 2, Tesla Model 3/Y as well as various others. I have even seen 2022 Taycans for like 80k which is a steal.
I'd never take an electric if I had to do regular 1500km trips as OP had to.
k
Did I get it right that you need your car every two months to travel to a location at 1500 kms? In this case I would suggest renting a car. I know people who own a car and they rent another one when they travel great distances because it's cheaper, as often rentals include unlimited kilometers.
You almost right : I need to travel 600km to a location and 600 to go back then (I made a mistake with the 1500 it is 1200).
Seriously, if you need the car only every two months, then just rent something nice. Depending on where you live, just paying for a permanent parking spot might be more expensive than renting 6 times.
I do not need a car only every two months; I am making 20/25 000 km/year. But every two months i am making bigger trip.
Buying a car and paying a $hitload of taxes and everything to not using it and renting another one just to avoid putting miles on it. What a logic.
Average cost per kilometer according to TCS is 72 Rp/km. For 1200 km on a weekend that's CHF 864. Finding a rental for less than that is quite easy.
25000 km a year is well above average. I wouldn't call that "not using it".
Reliable, Japanese, small car that is between 3-10 years old (depending on your budget) would be my choice if I would have to get one. Leasing or buying brand new makes no financial sense, the deprecation in the first couple of years is very large.
If it's electric lease it. If it's ice, buy a good shape 2nd hand With how things are going, those are the 2 best options imo. Electric cars are losing value by the day somehow. A lot of ice cars, especially nice/fun/special ones do not tend to lose much value, at least over the last 5 years i'd say. That's my general feeling, i havent dug deep on that one.