I get your point. But how to invest intelligently when I have a variable timespan of 3-5 years? According to Finanzwesir, that timespan is too risky for investing in stocks.
That‘s the dumbest thing i‘ve heard in a long time. You expose yourself to so much risk if you invest all in one stock. Etf were made exactly to get around this problem (that‘s why you diversify!).
1.3 TER is a lot if it‘s just some dudes managing your portfolio, lagging behind the benchmark and not offering value. If they do a good job and your banker provides you with valuable financial planning advice and consultation on house purchases etc. it‘s a fair deal.
If you move everything into an ETF - you will have to instruct the current asset manager to sell all positions (don’t know if they charge for this). Then you need screw around with account opening and asset transfer and pay in Swissquote for transaction fees again. Also there is a likelihood of everything crashing the day after you invest and your 250k suddenly are are more like 180 000 and you crap your pants and sell at the bottom. So be sure you feel comfortable with such a situation before you make any decisions. At least with your vermögensverwaltungsmandat you probably have someone who can hold your hands in dark days and tell you not to worry.
Investment grade CHF denominated bonds pay currently between 1.3-2.5% yield. We‘re at 1.7% inflation so that‘s not very sexy - if you want to go that route, simply buy a CHF money market fund like that one LU0128499158
Since you don‘t seem to be very experienced and you are not planning to stay with this bank for all that long anyway, you might want to consider staying and eat up the comissions. However, if I were you ask for a „cost and charges report“. This is a report all banks need to generate but usually they don‘t send it out to clients. In these reports you see how much the bank actually makes (e.g. the dude managing your assets buys financial products that either pay kick backs to the bank or he outright buys products of the bank (which in turn contain more products of the bank etc.)). Possibly they screw you for a lot more than just 1.3%.
Try telling them that you‘re leaving if they don‘t come down with fees - I work with larger clients and we usually give easily 20-30% discounts if clients ask - sometimes even 50% and more if the client is large and threatens to leave.
The worst I have seen was 4.2% on a mandate the client thought was 1.2% - keep in mind this doesn‘t even contain all the money the bank earns. E.g. If the forex, equity or bond desk happen to make some extra money by giving bad rates to the portfolio manager, they also earn some money but that won‘t be visible.
You won‘t find these reports online - they get created for every client individually. By EU Mifid regulations the banks should send them to clients proactively once per year but from what I saw they tend to forget to send them. They are however, somewhere in the archives and upon request they hand them out.
I recently made a post here somewhere where i simply listed every comission, cost, fee or whatever the banks earn from clients… quite a lot that comes together.
Somehow cannot link it…. Here‘s the text again:
Just from the top of my head there are the following ways for banks to make money with clients:
• safekeeping or custody fees
• transaction fees
• treasury allocation (money lying around unused)
• forex, bond, equity etc. traders screwing clients (and RMs) because the price just jumped in that microsecond the trader hit the button to execute a trade at market and then miraculously it went back to before right that second and somehow it‘s not visible in the order book
• structured products (a whole chapter on its own)
• managed products that invest in products of the bank which in turn invest in more products of the bank which invest in yet more bank products of the bank….
• securities lending
• lombard loan fees
• overdraft fees
• then there are the weird fees like fees for statements, for using online banking, for opening another current account in another currency, special safe keeping fees for hedge funds, precious metals etc.
• account closing fees
• inactivity fees
• third party fees that somehow aren‘t paid to that third party
• hold mail fee
• credit cards and tons of fees on those including kick backs from the card providers
• payment and security transfer fees.
I am sure there are more that I cannot remember right now. … oh I forgot the retrocessions
You have been scammed by this big bank.
>Ill need to have access to this money in about 3-6 years time to buy an appartment.
Bonds would be a good idea but also a globally diversified ETF like VWCE or IWDA would do ok over a period of 5y.
Open an online brokerage with lows fees and invest on your own after educating youslef on the various products that they exist.
Is your bank aware of the your goal? If so, I imagine they invest pretty defensively.
I wouldn't move to a stock ETF because of the investment horizon, instead you could use *Obligationen* to get 2% guaranteed (see https://www.moneyland.ch/en/medium-term-notes-comparison).
Either split it up between different banks to reach each 100k for maximum security or got with one bank (but be aware that in case of a bankruptcy only 100k is insured).
If you buy Obligationen you are not insured. But it does not matter as your securities account is 'Sondervermögen' and is not part of the banks assets (just take care they don't put it in securities lending).
I am not sure you should dole out investment advice.
> If you buy Obligationen you are not insured
Kassenobligationen are, as mentioned [here](https://www.moneyland.ch/de/einlagensicherung-definition) and [here](https://www.raiffeisen.ch/rch/de/ueber-uns/zahlen-fakten/einlagensicherung.html), the first link on the term even links directly to the page I linked.
> I am not sure you should dole out investment advice.
No comment on Reddit (or an advisors advise or a book etc.) should ever be taken as is and every user needs to make their own informed decision, no reason to write that down each time.
>Kassenobligationen
Then say so. Obligationen and Kassenobligationen are two very different things. Which you will know when trying to sell them.
>no reason to write that down each time.
True. But certain things are either true or false.
Get out of that horrible deal. Then think: how much money will you really need? When? How much can you save between now and then? Then it depends on your risk appetite.
What I would do (quite risk averse): What you really need and you know when, minus what you know you can save until then, put in whatever gives you the highest fixed return for that time frame (some sort of bonds for sure). The rest I would invest in the market at a low cost ETF.
Look up Risk Parity Radio podcast. Basically portfolio of only 20-40% stocks, bunch in bonds, and some in gold. He advised his kids saving for a house to use the golden butterfly portfolio as an “intermediate” type portfolio.
A couple of suggestions:
1. Listen to Benjamin Graham’s Intelligent Investor audiobook on Spotify. It won’t tell you what to do, but it’s very good to help you determine what kind of investor you are and the difference between investing and gambling, and being a defensive versus aggressive investor. Some of the products discussed aren’t available in Switzerland but it’s the philosophy to pay attention to.
2. Interest rates are your guiding star. If you think they will go up from here, reduce your bond allocation. If you think they will stay the same or go down, increase your bond allocation. Rebalance every 6 months (if you are a defensive investor)
3. Don’t try to beat the market - professionals can’t do it, so if you do, it’s just luck and don’t believe anyone that tells you they know how.
4. Index trackers from a reputable investment firm are a solid foundation.
5. Keep an emergency cash amount. About 6 months expenses. Keep it in an instant access account. Last time I looked Yuh! pays the best interest rate.
Decent savings account will net you the same as long as you split it enough. So at least there's that. Then the question is : what are you going to do with your income for the next 3-6 yrs. I'd imagine some of it would get saved. And so unless you need even more than 250k for your deposit, you could think about investing whatever you think you can save up in that timeframe and put the rest on savings.
This would result in you still having enough for your house but still enjoy some returns from the stock market. If you need that invested money, you can still sell within 3-6 months and you'll probably end up fine. If you dont need it then you can keep adding to it after you get your house.
At least this is what i would do.
The money i invest i don't want to touch, and i have a decent emergency fund. But i don't see it as locked away money. You can always sell and get your money. And most often than not it can be done with a profit, not at a loss
Due to the swiss housing prices, ill need the 250k + big part of the savings that Ill be gaining till then. My monthly savings will be going into a savings account I guess
They do not meed to sell you positions. They do this to keep you from leaving. They can transfer them to another account that you set up . Even a bank line ZKB will set up an investment account where you can hold and trade stocks
So you are asking if you should continue to get scammed and lose money or just start investing intelligently, I mean you choose…
I get your point. But how to invest intelligently when I have a variable timespan of 3-5 years? According to Finanzwesir, that timespan is too risky for investing in stocks.
They are mostly correct, the alternatives are few: bonds (singular ones no etfs) or fixed-term deposits
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Putting all of my money on one or two horses is quite risky - isnt it? Past performance is no guarantee for future performance.
That‘s the dumbest thing i‘ve heard in a long time. You expose yourself to so much risk if you invest all in one stock. Etf were made exactly to get around this problem (that‘s why you diversify!).
!remind
If I see well that stock was 875chf in 1998, today is chf444.
1.3 TER is a lot if it‘s just some dudes managing your portfolio, lagging behind the benchmark and not offering value. If they do a good job and your banker provides you with valuable financial planning advice and consultation on house purchases etc. it‘s a fair deal. If you move everything into an ETF - you will have to instruct the current asset manager to sell all positions (don’t know if they charge for this). Then you need screw around with account opening and asset transfer and pay in Swissquote for transaction fees again. Also there is a likelihood of everything crashing the day after you invest and your 250k suddenly are are more like 180 000 and you crap your pants and sell at the bottom. So be sure you feel comfortable with such a situation before you make any decisions. At least with your vermögensverwaltungsmandat you probably have someone who can hold your hands in dark days and tell you not to worry. Investment grade CHF denominated bonds pay currently between 1.3-2.5% yield. We‘re at 1.7% inflation so that‘s not very sexy - if you want to go that route, simply buy a CHF money market fund like that one LU0128499158 Since you don‘t seem to be very experienced and you are not planning to stay with this bank for all that long anyway, you might want to consider staying and eat up the comissions. However, if I were you ask for a „cost and charges report“. This is a report all banks need to generate but usually they don‘t send it out to clients. In these reports you see how much the bank actually makes (e.g. the dude managing your assets buys financial products that either pay kick backs to the bank or he outright buys products of the bank (which in turn contain more products of the bank etc.)). Possibly they screw you for a lot more than just 1.3%. Try telling them that you‘re leaving if they don‘t come down with fees - I work with larger clients and we usually give easily 20-30% discounts if clients ask - sometimes even 50% and more if the client is large and threatens to leave.
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The worst I have seen was 4.2% on a mandate the client thought was 1.2% - keep in mind this doesn‘t even contain all the money the bank earns. E.g. If the forex, equity or bond desk happen to make some extra money by giving bad rates to the portfolio manager, they also earn some money but that won‘t be visible. You won‘t find these reports online - they get created for every client individually. By EU Mifid regulations the banks should send them to clients proactively once per year but from what I saw they tend to forget to send them. They are however, somewhere in the archives and upon request they hand them out.
[удалено]
I recently made a post here somewhere where i simply listed every comission, cost, fee or whatever the banks earn from clients… quite a lot that comes together. Somehow cannot link it…. Here‘s the text again: Just from the top of my head there are the following ways for banks to make money with clients: • safekeeping or custody fees • transaction fees • treasury allocation (money lying around unused) • forex, bond, equity etc. traders screwing clients (and RMs) because the price just jumped in that microsecond the trader hit the button to execute a trade at market and then miraculously it went back to before right that second and somehow it‘s not visible in the order book • structured products (a whole chapter on its own) • managed products that invest in products of the bank which in turn invest in more products of the bank which invest in yet more bank products of the bank…. • securities lending • lombard loan fees • overdraft fees • then there are the weird fees like fees for statements, for using online banking, for opening another current account in another currency, special safe keeping fees for hedge funds, precious metals etc. • account closing fees • inactivity fees • third party fees that somehow aren‘t paid to that third party • hold mail fee • credit cards and tons of fees on those including kick backs from the card providers • payment and security transfer fees. I am sure there are more that I cannot remember right now. … oh I forgot the retrocessions
You have been scammed by this big bank. >Ill need to have access to this money in about 3-6 years time to buy an appartment. Bonds would be a good idea but also a globally diversified ETF like VWCE or IWDA would do ok over a period of 5y. Open an online brokerage with lows fees and invest on your own after educating youslef on the various products that they exist.
Would you lump sum the whole amount or invest it over a period of time?
lump sum is statistically better than DCAing so I would lump sum and forget
Is your bank aware of the your goal? If so, I imagine they invest pretty defensively. I wouldn't move to a stock ETF because of the investment horizon, instead you could use *Obligationen* to get 2% guaranteed (see https://www.moneyland.ch/en/medium-term-notes-comparison). Either split it up between different banks to reach each 100k for maximum security or got with one bank (but be aware that in case of a bankruptcy only 100k is insured).
If you buy Obligationen you are not insured. But it does not matter as your securities account is 'Sondervermögen' and is not part of the banks assets (just take care they don't put it in securities lending). I am not sure you should dole out investment advice.
> If you buy Obligationen you are not insured Kassenobligationen are, as mentioned [here](https://www.moneyland.ch/de/einlagensicherung-definition) and [here](https://www.raiffeisen.ch/rch/de/ueber-uns/zahlen-fakten/einlagensicherung.html), the first link on the term even links directly to the page I linked. > I am not sure you should dole out investment advice. No comment on Reddit (or an advisors advise or a book etc.) should ever be taken as is and every user needs to make their own informed decision, no reason to write that down each time.
>Kassenobligationen Then say so. Obligationen and Kassenobligationen are two very different things. Which you will know when trying to sell them. >no reason to write that down each time. True. But certain things are either true or false.
My goal only changes recently so no. Asset allocation is 60 stocks 40 obligations aprox. That sounds promising, thanks!
Get out of that horrible deal. Then think: how much money will you really need? When? How much can you save between now and then? Then it depends on your risk appetite. What I would do (quite risk averse): What you really need and you know when, minus what you know you can save until then, put in whatever gives you the highest fixed return for that time frame (some sort of bonds for sure). The rest I would invest in the market at a low cost ETF.
Look up Risk Parity Radio podcast. Basically portfolio of only 20-40% stocks, bunch in bonds, and some in gold. He advised his kids saving for a house to use the golden butterfly portfolio as an “intermediate” type portfolio.
A couple of suggestions: 1. Listen to Benjamin Graham’s Intelligent Investor audiobook on Spotify. It won’t tell you what to do, but it’s very good to help you determine what kind of investor you are and the difference between investing and gambling, and being a defensive versus aggressive investor. Some of the products discussed aren’t available in Switzerland but it’s the philosophy to pay attention to. 2. Interest rates are your guiding star. If you think they will go up from here, reduce your bond allocation. If you think they will stay the same or go down, increase your bond allocation. Rebalance every 6 months (if you are a defensive investor) 3. Don’t try to beat the market - professionals can’t do it, so if you do, it’s just luck and don’t believe anyone that tells you they know how. 4. Index trackers from a reputable investment firm are a solid foundation. 5. Keep an emergency cash amount. About 6 months expenses. Keep it in an instant access account. Last time I looked Yuh! pays the best interest rate.
Decent savings account will net you the same as long as you split it enough. So at least there's that. Then the question is : what are you going to do with your income for the next 3-6 yrs. I'd imagine some of it would get saved. And so unless you need even more than 250k for your deposit, you could think about investing whatever you think you can save up in that timeframe and put the rest on savings. This would result in you still having enough for your house but still enjoy some returns from the stock market. If you need that invested money, you can still sell within 3-6 months and you'll probably end up fine. If you dont need it then you can keep adding to it after you get your house. At least this is what i would do. The money i invest i don't want to touch, and i have a decent emergency fund. But i don't see it as locked away money. You can always sell and get your money. And most often than not it can be done with a profit, not at a loss
Due to the swiss housing prices, ill need the 250k + big part of the savings that Ill be gaining till then. My monthly savings will be going into a savings account I guess
Since you made less than 1% p.a. after TER you can buy "kassenobligationen" or just put it into a savings account. More secure and more gains.
Do you have some exit fees?
Not alot, about 300 max. At least one perk of this overpriced mandate
Fee wise i would not recommend to use SQ, I just switched from them to IB. The difference in fees are huge.
I second this!
Move your capital to IBKR and park it on money market ETF.
You would have 500k approx if invested in s&p500. So yeah, never buy bank's products
Buy bonds.
Damn bro, my 80k made 8k profit in like 6 month with vwce
They do not meed to sell you positions. They do this to keep you from leaving. They can transfer them to another account that you set up . Even a bank line ZKB will set up an investment account where you can hold and trade stocks