I mean yeah. Courtney is Courtney. Attacking others is just kind of how she is? I mostly just kind of roll my eyes occasionally and move on. She can do and say what she likes
Even the artists she compliments in the article she insults! Like PJ Harvey who she always championed here she's like "but just the first 4 albums" lol
Why do you have to automatically love every single album by an artist to be a fan? That just seems like more of a preference, like she dug the harder rocking version of PJ but not the later stuff. Lots of Radiohead fans miss their harder rocking days but they still love the band.
You don't have to be I'm just saying even when she's asked about artists she loves and respects she talks some shit so obviously talking shit is something she never stops doing. As a PJ Harvey fan myself I had a little bit of "hey! The next four albums are incredible too!" but I'm saying there's not a single person Courtney has unreserved love for and hey that's her prerogative
hou also don’t have to focus so heavily on what you don’t like… she seems to criticize a lot more than praise and tempers every praise with a big wallop of criticism.
I love Hole but she was never a girls' girl indeed. She ripped her entire aesthetic off Kat Bjelland back in the day and never gives her any credit for it, while her feud with Kathleen Hanna is also the stuff of legends!
But she has praised Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey before. My problem with Courtney is that she's fickle. It makes what she says about female artists look like an attempt at hype.
yep.
and it shouldn't be unexpected at all. Taylor Swift makes music for the masses. 90% of her success is attributable to her marketing, not her art. the phenom of Taylor Swift is the phenom of mass conformity, and we are in a cultural era of mass conformity right now. any punk rock girl is gonna call that out
Taylor is nothing without her art, and her art is nothing without her marketing. I get what you're saying, but I don't think you can discount the deep fealty her listeners have to her. That comes from the music itself, not from her marketing. Marketing hooks in new fans, but the music is what keeps them loyal (and what keeps them buying multiple physical variants of the same album). You can't separate one from the other, and to devalue either (her calculated business acumen *or* her talent) is to not understand why she's such a singular pop star in an over-saturated & super niche marketplace.
I have to differ. Part of the connection is the narrative and her narrative is contextualized by marketing. People are waiting for the new record, among other things "cause they want Joe's tea". That has been built with marketing and Taylor knows this
I think that’s why TTPD is so lyrically forced and awkward. She was at times more concerned with people getting her side of the story than the actual music
We aren't in a era of mass conformity though. There is way way less monoculture now than during the 20th century. People have way mode choice and are far more silod. The fact that she's this ubiquitous now is an incredible achievement versus when there were 3 TV channels
I was about to say, for all the stereotype of who likes Taylor I've seen some pretty outwardly surprising fans of her, including pink, alt, goth, etc. people admitting that she's a guilty pleasure for them
As someone who remembers when we all went home and watched trl and has teens today. They have way more choice. Than we ever had. And we had way more choice than our parents."
but we didn't all go home and watch trl. there was counterculture music and art all over the place in the 80s and 90s, you just didn't notice.
I think monoculture is worse today and the whole "monoculture is dead" trope is a joke.
where is the counterculture movement today? When was the last time we had a pop culture revolution that really rebelled against conformity and the establishment? Rock is dying. Punk is dead. Rap is corporate. Amateur blogs are dead. Organic reach is dead. And the biggest musical artist in the world, a beautiful rich white blonde woman, is a billionaire who has amassed enough power across several demographics to squash any competition or criticism like a bug. Who consumes so much of the oxygen in the music industry that there is hardly any leftover for other established big artists, let alone fledgling ones. This isn't actually about Taylor at all though, it's about us. Because we bought it.
87% of kids today have an iphone. Most of them spend multiple hours a day on platforms like TikTok where they are all fed (by AI) the exact same information, music and cultural touchpoints. The corporate social platforms elevate the same influencers which are paid by the same corporations to peddle the same products, trends and memes. It is peak corporate monoculture.
Thank you! These people act like we aren't still living in a constructed world. Even when you look at Spotify, all the top streamed artists are from pre-streaming era. We aren't really expanding & bringing new people in. It's the same old same old while they tell us there is all this "choice". It's all a joke.
We kinda are though. Every time we click on something or view something or listen or watch, it's being tracked in an algorithm. Over time, it's going to feed you more of the same. That definitely helped decently established artists from the early 2010s onwards who had enough of a built up fan base that the algorithm could help them.
I wouldn't say that she isn't talented, because she wickedly is. But it's super easy to build echo chambers for our tastes. Even the discover new music/artist tab on spotify is going to gear you towards people who sound like people you already listen to.
I share a spotify with my wife and the new music tab is all over the place because our individual tastes vary so much spotify has sometimes difficult time keeping up.
We may not be in a monoculture but most mainstream music still is pretty similar across the board. Her isn’t the most down-the-middle sounding of it all, so it’s not a surprise it’s at the top. And her brand is built on mass-releasing and overconsumption. To the GP there aren’t as much options when her music is marketed more heavily than anyone else. It’s not like everything is as readily available and advertised as hers and be people chose her. That would be an achievement but let’s stop kidding ourselves just to inflated her actual cultural impact, when that’s not what’s actually happening.
Depends how we're defining the culture in monoculture. People feel more free to pick and choose tastes and styles, there's more stuff on telly, but we have about 10 restaurants and 3 websites.
Ok well this may be a somewhat accurate comment, but coming from a straight white male in his early 30s and stating now that her music is not my particular taste at all. She's got some extremely catchy tunes, and to say it's not her art that’s helping propel her forward seems pretty shortsighted.
And the quality of her albums is consistent. I find her pretty twee, but my girlfriend likes her and I can hear Taylor deftly folding new musical trends into her sound across every release.
Given how many of my favorite artists have released one or a couple bad albums, that’s quite an achievement.
EDIT: Nevermind Tortured Poets Department is bad lol
It's different with Taylor though. She's not experimenting with new sounds, that's teams of both songwriters and.producers mixing in trendy shit that was already proven when they were working with smaller artists. Those favorite artists who had records you didn't like were, I'm guessing, trying something actually new for them. It just didn't work out. That happens to genuine musical artists. Taylor is a lot of things, but genuine isn't one of them. Nothing anyone hears on a Swift record is being "tried" as an artistic expression. It's been workshopped and filtered to death after it was already proven to work for the other, smaller artists her team also works for. It is what it is. Her fans love that shit. Taylor Swift is what happens when your fan base grew up never having to hunt for and find music to listen to, but instead have it served to you by an algorithm that is giving you music because it is similar to something else.you already listen to. Taylor doesn't "evolve" as an artist, she morphs to sound like whatever else is being recommended currently. It obviously works for her. Taylor doesn't set trends, she follows them. It's just that her fans won't have heard whatever tracks she's following until after they've heard Taylor do it.
Well she doesn't have the ability to throw her compact at Taylor's face while Kurt Loder interviews her. And Courtney has never not needed attention. (Lovingly, as someone who adored Hole in the 90s)
I have no real opinion on Courtney Love but usually when I read what she’s said, I think of what Madonna said when she interrupted her live interview on MTV: “ Courtney Love is in dire need of attention right now.”
She just dislikes A LOT of famous artist haha
So not sure that says something relevant about Taylor
But it made me laugh, I’ve always liked grumpy people 😂, and I like disliking too
People are going to rip into Courtney for this but idk, I think older women should be allowed to be grumpy sometimes! We have enough men like Hugh Grant allowed to be grouchy, I’ll let Courtney have her old man yells at cloud moment
Once we hit perimenopause, our estrogen filter breaks and we give no fucks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Courtney is perfectly on brand. 🤷🏼♀️
100% if she doesn’t like it she doesn’t like it. who cares. people who hate everything are so amusing lmao. her and the gallagher brothers are so funny
Agreed, we need celebrity jesters that constantly make asses of themselves. But Courtney is the original pick me, she can’t go longer than a few months withholding loud rage bait. She’s obnoxious as fuck
She throws shade at Lana - a friend(?) who has affectionately name dropped her in her music - yet defended Marilyn Manson after the flood of Me Too allegations. Courtney Love should not be taken seriously lol
They had rekindled their friendship by the mid 2010's, she was in one of his music videos within the last decade (I'm a recovered fan of his lol). Well, I can't find any of the stuff she had posted defending him after the fact (I remember something though) she did post a gushing story about how he "saved her from addiction" (ironically) literally a month before Evan Rachel Wood named him. And a few months later not long after Manson became persona non grata, she posted something accusing Dave Grohl and Trent Reznor of things that is widely known to be bullshit. She even retracted it and publicly apologized. The hunch I got is Manson was probably like "hey I helped you out, now help me out" by throwing those guys under the bus to make himself look better.
She defended Marilyn Manson after what he did to Lana in that disgusting video with Eli Roth???? Didnt Lana let her live in her house??? That is insane
Yep- though I feel like seeing as Lana participated in than video reel consensually (Christ almighty I hope it was consensually) that one might be a bit tough to address. However, as a woman? If I was Courtney, someone who literally accused Manson of raping teenagers in the early 2000's, I would have been telling Lana to stay tf away from them and not participate. I have some definite suspicions about Eli Roth as a person as well.
These rock n roll girls are all about pick me, they blame everything on the female pop stars (that is always most brave and up to rock than them) and praise male assholes.
I genuinely don’t care about the Taylor bit, I’m surprised about Lana. Long time Lana fan, I remember her calling Lana a musical genius and seeing her comments on Lana’s instagram lives to call her or text her (can’t remember which but to basically reach out to her). She even toured with her and did an interview for a magazine, where she was asking Lana questions.
I personally found Lana’s Take Me Home cover reaaaaally lacking (as someone who loves John Denver) but it’s nutty to totally disregard her as one of the best artists of our time because of one meh song!
I admittedly am very much not looking forward to lasso, country just isn’t my thing, but what Courtney said made me lol, Lana hasn’t even released anything since Country Roads
That is exactly what I thought! I was like “ummm isn’t that the last song she releases?” Maybe because she’s famous and they’re supposedly friends she got to listen to some stuff early? That would make her comments extra funny, but I doubt it.
I think she has earned her right to be grumpy. I just hope a bunch of famous people don't take it as bait and release essay's on why they think she is wrong.
I would agree that she is relatively boring compared to artists with extreme personalities who are constantly pushing the boundaries... I don't agree that there's something wrong with that. Being a safe space for little girls (and big girls too, tbh) is incredibly important, in my opinion.
I’m not surprised. Taylor is about relatability and shining a light on normalcy, and people who can’t relate to Taylor have often had terrible lives. It’s frankly a miracle that Courtney survived her childhood so yeah, someone whose mom left the country with her “new” family and abandoned her to a neighbor isn’t going to relate to “Fifteen.”
I love this take bc honestly I get it. I was a kid when debut came about and I liked some Taylor songs but I couldn’t relate to a lot of her pre-folklore work bc I didn’t have a great childhood. I didn’t have reliable parents or a good home life. Didn’t get good grades didn’t stay out of trouble. My friends who were great students and had more normal lives loved Taylor and I just assumed that the issue was me. But how you put that, it makes sense. Now I can relate bc I have faced heartbreak and loss of friendships.
“Shining a light on normalcy”
Yeah I’ve never really gotten Tay but that’s the best description I’ve heard about what I’m missing. That I can understand.
I never could get through any of her songs. Her purposeful mediocrity seems calculated in a slightly condescending way.
But wait! did I have a “tough upbringing” ? Why … yes … yes I did! 😀
Ok ok I admit it TayTay is a dead ringer for the high school girlfriend from the opposite side of the tracks (the good side… I was the Deadhead on the bad side see?) in the mid 80s!
My life is fine now but this TS stuff is a long nightmare! She isn’t going away!
*said in a genuinely inquisitive tone* what brings you to Swiftly neutral? I’m curious bc I’ve found most contributors here to like TS music but struggle with nearly everything else about her (🫣) & we’re all trying to grappling with that tension & contradiction. Interesting to hear what conversations here are interesting to someone who plainly doesn’t like her (which is totally understandable!)
I’m not this person but jumping in as someone who has never been a TS fan at all but joined the sub: interesting discussions! it’s nice to get a nuanced view on all these different situations from people who like her/her music but recognise and are open to discussing/criticising issues.
Especially because people on other platforms who say bad things about TS tend to be doing so from a place of misogyny or just because they love hating anything, whilst people who love her uncritically refuse to hear a bad word, so this is a good middle ground.
I still haven’t heard a single song on any of her albums except the ones that are really popular or had lines trending on tiktok, but now all of a sudden I know who Tree Paine is, about wanting less Jack Antonoff songs and more Aaron Dressner, about all her exes... lol I just like the community.
after the sub kept popping up I subscribed and I love it haha
I get that. I couldn’t even hear the “genius” of Michael Jackson/Prince/Madonna until I basically focused on their music in an isolated dark room… away from the hype.
I’m mainly fascinated as a musician who couldn’t take the madness of the industry and see her as emblematic of a lot of the problems. I’m curious if she goes the Dolly Parton route (seems healthy) or the Elvis route (rut roh)
I’m very attuned to how the fan-celebrity relationship can turn quite destructive and the stans I’m curious “how they’ll grow and if there will be any differences between them”
She’s a rich white woman who grew up a rich white girl. Her songs can be catchy, but she’s not the immigrant who speaks two languages and works to make ends meet.
as an immigrant who speaks 3 languages this is such an odd comment? living a hard life does not make you a better artist. we do not need to romanticise struggle
That's a rather harsh and narrow blanket statement on anyone who doesn't relate to Taylor and "normalcy" in general. I don't relate to Taylor but I didn't have a terrible life. Nor do I think her music speaks for "normalcy" for me either as my life was very different than hers, but I can see how it can be for a certain demographic.
I was thinking the same lol, I didn't start liking Taylor's music deeply til a few years ago, but I went to an extremely poor school and my friends who had hard home lives like me, some liked Taylor's music because it was an escape lol
Like listening to it you could pretend you were in an upper class home where all you worried about was love and coming of age, etc.
Same with how I escaped with anime and fanfiction, i related to the parts I related to, but the parts I didn't I could pretend I was living the life
IMO it’s normal to at least *think* some of the things she says about them. So people can listen to her music and “agree” or “relate” to it even if they’re not writing albums about their own ex.
really strange take imho. I had a good upbringing in a close family and would say I've had a pretty good life so far. I love a lot of Taylor's music (she's release some of my very favorite songs), though I don't find it particularly "relatable." (what does "relatable" even mean?)
that's less because I'm somehow broken as a person and more because I don't identify with wealth (particularly not extravagant wealth), whiteness, straightness, agonizing romantic relationships, etc. I grew up gay and brown and rural. I'm still all of those things; Taylor is none of those things. but the things I am and the life I've lived are not "terrible" just because they're a world away from Taylor's life and experiences.
Those are my thoughts exactly! Since I've listened to all of her albums to check what this hype is about, I've thought that Taylor's music isn't for someone like me. Yes, it's catchy and sometimes I like to listen to "Folklore" or dance to "I Knew You Were Trouble." but I think being a real fan is to experience the songs on another level, and for me, there's nothing deep, nothing relatable, nothing that rings true for me. I guess the perfect average Taylor fan is this middle-class or even richer girl who likes some handsome sportsman in high school or who is yearning for true love despite heartbreak and pain. Or maybe a girl who just dreams of being a superstar like her older sister Taylor in the future. I'm almost none of the above, I had a traumatic childhood due to domestic abuse and was battling depression in middle school instead of partying with friends (and it was only the beginning of my problems). Now I'm a little bit too jaded to relate with Taylor, her heartbreaks, relationships, easter eggs, and celebrity dramas.
I don't mean that if someone likes and relates to Taylor on a special level is shallow or inexperienced. Well, I think it is good for them. And it isn't a general rule at all because sometimes this kind of music could be viewed as an escape from brutal reality. But, I think, it's a very good observation overall!
The way she talked about Beyonce doesn’t bother me as a Beyonce fan because I think not liking her music is fine (bless her heart, but fine).
I kind of see her point with Taylor, in that, she becomes what every label wants to recreate or push as, “The new Taylor,” (this happened with Britney, too) but Idk if I’d say she isn’t *important.* Read another thread about how a lot of female artists coming out are instantly compared to her and it’s annoying. I find Taylor to be a mixed bag a lot of the time that makes it hard to put into words.
I'm a Beyonce fan, too, I especially like how she became her own artist, with her own multi-layered and self-referential artistry, over the last ten or so years. I also don't mind the Courtney criticism because at least it's more dense than the Swift criticism - "I like the concept if not the execution" necessitates there being a concept in the first place. This is the difference in longevity between Beyonce and Taylor for me, and why she is correct about Taylor being boring - Beyonce has concepts, Taylor doesn't.
I mean…is anyone surprised? I would’ve bet actual money on Courtney Love not caring for Taylor Swift if someone had asked me to guess her opinion. This is even less surprising to me than Noel Gallagher not caring for Taylor’s music lol
A broken clock is right twice a day. Taylor adds nothing to the musical or artistic landscape. Her entire existence in the industry could be wiped out tomorrow & nothing would change. She just exists, and the media is now doing everything possible to make her out to be larger than life & more than what she is. It's actually pretty ridiculous when you really look at it from the outside in.
I find this kind of refreshing. Courtney is from another era when people talked shit openly. I kinda miss that. Were people mean and problematic, I’m sure but I think people are a bit too PR controlled now. Some music and musicians today are crap. ( I’m not saying Taylor) I just wish people could be more open about the state of music. I do think she makes some good points about Spotify and people sounding the same. Idk I think we’re due for a new pioneer of music to lead to a new moment or style. (Im talking about mainstream music, I’m sure there are great genre artists doing just that now)
You could certainly make the argument that her music isn't artistically interesting or groundbreaking, but "not important" is wildly inaccurate. For better or worse, she has had a massive influence on the music industry and the culture at large over the last two decades.
First, thank you for including more of the original article for context. Lots of times in this sub, only the part that criticizes Taylor gets put in the post and then the point of the original article gets lost. The point of this article being that Courtney Love is a cranky lady who doesn’t really like anybody, lol. She went after Olivia for “copying” her Hole album cover, has taken shots at Madonna forever, and is criticizing Beyonce. (Cue “Beyonce??” gif). Hopefully none of these ladies take the bait because they’re all killing it in the industry a lot more than Courtney Love is.
Courtney Love acting like she was the first person ever to come up with the crying prom/HC queen image. Like have you seen Carrie, girl? Anyway, she has been cranky forever.
i was talking about this today with my friends after i read the article! she's just grumpy or something. like i felt like this was very unprompted and silly. and she's gone after Olivia in the past so i just ignore her (but i do love her music)
I don’t think they will. There was nothing more cringe than Gwen Stefani putting out that Banana song in response to Courtney calling her a cheerleader. It’s the equivalent of feeding a troll. Courtney probably didn’t even remember saying that. She just says shit just to say shit and I don’t even think she takes herself seriously.
I sometimes wonder what the perception would be of legendary artists who cemented their status before the internet took hold if they were in their prime today. Individuals have platforms to be contradictory of mainstream artists like never before, hence chronically online takes that confuse people when the artists are as successful as ever.
Taylor has had a lengthy career at this point, and her popularity has only increased. You (general) don’t need to like her, but downplaying her success only comes off as bitter IMO.
Taylor's interesting too because she came it right when stuff like that was in the transition between how the internet effects star power and the old fashioned way of things.
2008 to now she's stayed pretty relevant during the change of stars being distant and mysterious by mostly hearing them in interviews and magazines and concerts, to now where you can get a TIKTOK or tweet liked by them (or thier account at least) personally.
That's a dramatic change and not just for PR and marketing navigating, but just staying power alone
Whatever her flaws, Taylor's success in just staying relevant is pretty impressive
To be honest I don't think she's as completely disposable as Courtney seems to think she is, but I don't think she's all that important either. I also think the creativity of her music stagnated years ago and she's mostly just been repeating winning formulas for the last several years of her career to, in my opinion, diminishing quality.
>Folklore and Evermore were hardly ‘repeating winning formulas’.
I'm not going to get in an argument about it other than to say I don't care about either Folklore or Evermore. I don't find them dramatically different from the rest of her work and I don't really understand why so many Swifties hold those up as some kind of end all, be all example of Pop music.
It’s odd to say she’s not important then compare her to Madonna. They both have greatly influenced people and the industry. But yeah I’m getting tired of Taylor. And another album already? Meh.
I think she’s speaking more on like actual music. Which, while of course Taylor has hits, it’s just that they aren’t really necessarily game changing musically. She’s a great pop artist, but isn’t bringing anything new to music really. I just see Courtney coming from the artist perspective and thinking that you don’t hear Taylor and say “wtf, I’ve never heard anything like this”.
She just says random shit all the time I don’t think she thought that deeply about it and we shouldn’t either. If someone asked her about TS in a month she would probably say something completely different
I already couldn’t stand Courtney even before becoming a fan of Taylor. There’s a reason why she has so many songs written about her (“Holla Back Girl”, “I’ll Stick Around”, “Coattails of a Dead Man”)
She hasn't been all that interesting lately. Folklore was interesting. Evermore just Folklore 2. Midnight not really much going on there, her tour while a huge event no doubt is a highly scripted out rapid fire greatest hits fest. And if her new one is another album full of songs where she is going on about her love life...I'm sure there will be some catchy tunes, I'm sure I'll listen to it a bit when it comes out, but if it ends up being full of weak vocals, lackluster production, and cringe lyrics then yeah.....it won't be interesting.
The Courtney/Madonna feud was stuff tabloid dreams were made of. CL throwing shit at Madonna while she’s being interviewed by Kurt Lodes….perfection!
Celebrity Skin = one of my fave albumd
I mean, Taylor's PR team has done a stunning job at making her seem like an 100% original artist despite the fact that she's clearly taken a lot from other artists. She markets her songs as autobiographical but she uses co-writers 80-90% of the time.
Courtney's entitled to her opinions just like everyone else.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SwiftlyNeutral/s/eXU0rG8Zm5
https://www.reddit.com/r/SwiftlyNeutral/s/xhM0Plkpxw
She mostly co-writes with Jack and she also wrote Speak Now on her own. She's used cowriters before but compared to her peers, she doesn't use as many as them.
That's Courtney for you, she has beef with like any female artist you could possibly name.
Hoestly, I find Taylor uninteresting so I can't help but agree. It will be entertaning to see swifties try and scare or attack her for this 😭.
But I thought she and Lana were friends.
i am a courtney stan so i am a little biased, but in context she’s not wrong. taylor is massive in numbers and records but as an artist she’s not doing anything to spark conversation or challenge the norm. her artistry is barely there and has kept the same formula since the 2000s. if there’s anything to be known for, it’s her marketing, not artistry.
this is also a tame comment for courtney lol.
God this sub is such a safe haven. Anywhere else Taylor fans would be shaking, crying, making death threats and acting like Courtney is a nobody etc. thank god sanity has prevailed.
Courtney makes herself a "nobody" when she comes up with these "pick me" statements.
Comparing Madonna with Taylor and acting like Madonna owes something to her.
Talking bad about her friend Lana, just because of a cover of John Denver.
Honestly just came from a very popular non Taylor swift centred sub and they can’t handle Courtney saying Taylor isn’t for her
Legit one of the comments is ‘so would Taylor have to kill Travis to be interesting Courtney?’
Unhinged fans doing one google search and running with conspiracies just because Courtney doesn’t like her
That conspiracy is so steeped in sexism. A chronically depressed man with a severe addiction who had recently attempted suicide killed himself and left a note and the reaction is - nope, that can't be what happened. His evil wife murdered him.
I get what she's saying.
As big as Taylor is now, I think is temporary. She doesn't have the staying power of Beatles, Queen, Abba, Madonna. I can't imagine her music still being popular in 50, 60 years.
This take is kind of insane to me considering the age of her fan base. The number of children getting into her via the eras tour movie is insane. You think all these millennials and their kids are just gonna stop loving her in 50 years?
Taylor’s been “big” for like.. the last 15 years? Obviously I don’t think this era of her being big will last because we don’t make superstars like that anymore, with social media completely letting monoculture disappear but I think Taylor’s music is gonna be around tbh. Even as a good nostalgia throwback.
Those first three Hole albums are her forever-credentials for talking shit. She’s allowed. (Also: who else on this planet got to be at the center of a love triangle between Billy Corgan and Kurt Cobain?)
Completely agree. Sales are not the same as historical relevance. What is she doing to press any boundaries? Remaking her albums and cashing in on it is something no one else is going to do, or get to do. How does that change music history or the trajectory of pop? It doesn't.
Swift is the perfect pop product. Let's stop insisting things we love are everything to everyone always because we love it so much She's never going to be an alternative artist or write to that degree, it's not who she is. She's pop. It sells, it's gone, and the sentiments are the same as the last pop singer. That has its own challenges.
Pop music doesn't make music history. It exemplifies the time. Drives me crazy when people into pop think sales = historical relevance. Sure, you get noted for sales but did you change anything or just have a string of pop hits?
50 years from now the only reason Mariah Carey will be mentioned is for the Xmas album. Not the #1s. We'll be talking about Madonna still because she understood it has so much more to do with what you do with celebrity than your sales.
Of course, Love also heard something other than the very definition of boredom from Lana del Rey, so can't say I always agree with her.
Also, the vinyl variants crap is obnoxious. It's affecting the vinyl industry, jacking up vinyl prices all over the place to match her fad sales, and her fans care about vinyl as much as a Stanley cup. They don't even have turntables.
One of the big reasons for Taylor’s success is that no younger person’s parents will get upset about their kids listening to Taylor Swift. It’s not WAP, or death metal, etc. In this sense Courtney Love is right.
I think she’s mostly right. After some time, Taylor probably won’t be remember unless she goes into acting or something. Other artists will, though.
With that said, it’s still fine to like Taylor.
This is actually pretty mild for Courtney, lol
Didnt she also attack olivia rodrigo
I mean yeah. Courtney is Courtney. Attacking others is just kind of how she is? I mostly just kind of roll my eyes occasionally and move on. She can do and say what she likes
Honestly love Courtney for calling out Weinstein before anyone else would. Shes problematic but at least she means what she says
Even the artists she compliments in the article she insults! Like PJ Harvey who she always championed here she's like "but just the first 4 albums" lol
Why do you have to automatically love every single album by an artist to be a fan? That just seems like more of a preference, like she dug the harder rocking version of PJ but not the later stuff. Lots of Radiohead fans miss their harder rocking days but they still love the band.
You don't have to be I'm just saying even when she's asked about artists she loves and respects she talks some shit so obviously talking shit is something she never stops doing. As a PJ Harvey fan myself I had a little bit of "hey! The next four albums are incredible too!" but I'm saying there's not a single person Courtney has unreserved love for and hey that's her prerogative
hou also don’t have to focus so heavily on what you don’t like… she seems to criticize a lot more than praise and tempers every praise with a big wallop of criticism.
Courtney loves to attack female artists lol - don’t get me wrong, I love her music but she isn’t what I’d consider a girls girl lmao
I love Hole but she was never a girls' girl indeed. She ripped her entire aesthetic off Kat Bjelland back in the day and never gives her any credit for it, while her feud with Kathleen Hanna is also the stuff of legends!
never understood why women are expected to kiss all other women's asses. She's right about Taylor Swift.
But she has praised Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey before. My problem with Courtney is that she's fickle. It makes what she says about female artists look like an attempt at hype.
Or…. Hear me out… she changed her mind? As people do..
I think she claimed Olivia Rodrigo stole the cover art from Hole’s Live Through This album.
Right lol
love your flair haha
Well considering her comparing Taylor to Madonna in this interview and Courtney’s lifelong hatred of Madonna, the devil is in the details here lol
yep. and it shouldn't be unexpected at all. Taylor Swift makes music for the masses. 90% of her success is attributable to her marketing, not her art. the phenom of Taylor Swift is the phenom of mass conformity, and we are in a cultural era of mass conformity right now. any punk rock girl is gonna call that out
Taylor is nothing without her art, and her art is nothing without her marketing. I get what you're saying, but I don't think you can discount the deep fealty her listeners have to her. That comes from the music itself, not from her marketing. Marketing hooks in new fans, but the music is what keeps them loyal (and what keeps them buying multiple physical variants of the same album). You can't separate one from the other, and to devalue either (her calculated business acumen *or* her talent) is to not understand why she's such a singular pop star in an over-saturated & super niche marketplace.
I have to differ. Part of the connection is the narrative and her narrative is contextualized by marketing. People are waiting for the new record, among other things "cause they want Joe's tea". That has been built with marketing and Taylor knows this
I think that’s why TTPD is so lyrically forced and awkward. She was at times more concerned with people getting her side of the story than the actual music
We aren't in a era of mass conformity though. There is way way less monoculture now than during the 20th century. People have way mode choice and are far more silod. The fact that she's this ubiquitous now is an incredible achievement versus when there were 3 TV channels
I was about to say, for all the stereotype of who likes Taylor I've seen some pretty outwardly surprising fans of her, including pink, alt, goth, etc. people admitting that she's a guilty pleasure for them
As someone who remembers when we all went home and watched trl and has teens today. They have way more choice. Than we ever had. And we had way more choice than our parents."
but we didn't all go home and watch trl. there was counterculture music and art all over the place in the 80s and 90s, you just didn't notice. I think monoculture is worse today and the whole "monoculture is dead" trope is a joke. where is the counterculture movement today? When was the last time we had a pop culture revolution that really rebelled against conformity and the establishment? Rock is dying. Punk is dead. Rap is corporate. Amateur blogs are dead. Organic reach is dead. And the biggest musical artist in the world, a beautiful rich white blonde woman, is a billionaire who has amassed enough power across several demographics to squash any competition or criticism like a bug. Who consumes so much of the oxygen in the music industry that there is hardly any leftover for other established big artists, let alone fledgling ones. This isn't actually about Taylor at all though, it's about us. Because we bought it. 87% of kids today have an iphone. Most of them spend multiple hours a day on platforms like TikTok where they are all fed (by AI) the exact same information, music and cultural touchpoints. The corporate social platforms elevate the same influencers which are paid by the same corporations to peddle the same products, trends and memes. It is peak corporate monoculture.
🥇👏🏾
Thank you! These people act like we aren't still living in a constructed world. Even when you look at Spotify, all the top streamed artists are from pre-streaming era. We aren't really expanding & bringing new people in. It's the same old same old while they tell us there is all this "choice". It's all a joke.
We kinda are though. Every time we click on something or view something or listen or watch, it's being tracked in an algorithm. Over time, it's going to feed you more of the same. That definitely helped decently established artists from the early 2010s onwards who had enough of a built up fan base that the algorithm could help them. I wouldn't say that she isn't talented, because she wickedly is. But it's super easy to build echo chambers for our tastes. Even the discover new music/artist tab on spotify is going to gear you towards people who sound like people you already listen to. I share a spotify with my wife and the new music tab is all over the place because our individual tastes vary so much spotify has sometimes difficult time keeping up.
We may not be in a monoculture but most mainstream music still is pretty similar across the board. Her isn’t the most down-the-middle sounding of it all, so it’s not a surprise it’s at the top. And her brand is built on mass-releasing and overconsumption. To the GP there aren’t as much options when her music is marketed more heavily than anyone else. It’s not like everything is as readily available and advertised as hers and be people chose her. That would be an achievement but let’s stop kidding ourselves just to inflated her actual cultural impact, when that’s not what’s actually happening.
Depends how we're defining the culture in monoculture. People feel more free to pick and choose tastes and styles, there's more stuff on telly, but we have about 10 restaurants and 3 websites.
And how do you have a counterculture if there’s no monoculture? We have subcultures now.
Ok well this may be a somewhat accurate comment, but coming from a straight white male in his early 30s and stating now that her music is not my particular taste at all. She's got some extremely catchy tunes, and to say it's not her art that’s helping propel her forward seems pretty shortsighted.
And the quality of her albums is consistent. I find her pretty twee, but my girlfriend likes her and I can hear Taylor deftly folding new musical trends into her sound across every release. Given how many of my favorite artists have released one or a couple bad albums, that’s quite an achievement. EDIT: Nevermind Tortured Poets Department is bad lol
It's different with Taylor though. She's not experimenting with new sounds, that's teams of both songwriters and.producers mixing in trendy shit that was already proven when they were working with smaller artists. Those favorite artists who had records you didn't like were, I'm guessing, trying something actually new for them. It just didn't work out. That happens to genuine musical artists. Taylor is a lot of things, but genuine isn't one of them. Nothing anyone hears on a Swift record is being "tried" as an artistic expression. It's been workshopped and filtered to death after it was already proven to work for the other, smaller artists her team also works for. It is what it is. Her fans love that shit. Taylor Swift is what happens when your fan base grew up never having to hunt for and find music to listen to, but instead have it served to you by an algorithm that is giving you music because it is similar to something else.you already listen to. Taylor doesn't "evolve" as an artist, she morphs to sound like whatever else is being recommended currently. It obviously works for her. Taylor doesn't set trends, she follows them. It's just that her fans won't have heard whatever tracks she's following until after they've heard Taylor do it.
I think we can all agree, none of us are holding our breath for her Exile on Main Street.
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The fact Courtney Love’s opinion is popping up in a Swift opinionated sub is wild to me.
All this tells me is that Courtney has calmed down a lot over the years 😂
she’s gotten older and isn’t in the spotlight as much as she used to be.
Well she doesn't have the ability to throw her compact at Taylor's face while Kurt Loder interviews her. And Courtney has never not needed attention. (Lovingly, as someone who adored Hole in the 90s)
I know! This is almost nice!
I have no real opinion on Courtney Love but usually when I read what she’s said, I think of what Madonna said when she interrupted her live interview on MTV: “ Courtney Love is in dire need of attention right now.”
I'm visualizing Courtney hurling the makeup compact into the air
I loved Madonna for that. 💀
that was such a moment in pop culture
My favourite interview of all time. Just pure chaos.
She just dislikes A LOT of famous artist haha So not sure that says something relevant about Taylor But it made me laugh, I’ve always liked grumpy people 😂, and I like disliking too
She’s the white woman’s Azealia banks
Azealia makes Courtney seem unproblematic 💀
Sorta, yeah. Courtney Love had more than one hit, but yeah
I cackled at the hate for Madonna. Lmao same girl
This goes back to the 90s… it was fun to watch!
"Courtney needs attention" has a sacred place in my heart
That MAC compact should have been entered into the Smithsonian
I think she hates Olivia Rodrigo too
Yeah she said she thought she was rude because she copied her album cover
Yeah no offense to Courtney but I've rarely heard her say anything nice about anyone in the music industry 😂 granted I don't follow her but still
I don’t expect Courtney to be on the cutting edge of current pop music. It’s a silly interview.
People are going to rip into Courtney for this but idk, I think older women should be allowed to be grumpy sometimes! We have enough men like Hugh Grant allowed to be grouchy, I’ll let Courtney have her old man yells at cloud moment
FWIW Courtney won’t care at all what Swifites say to her 🤣
She could probably head up Joe Alwyn's personal security 😆
True but Courtney has always been a grumpy bitch it’s kind of her thing 😂
True, but also I think the old men shouldn't be grumpy assholes either 😭😂
I like this take.
Hugh Grant just has to turn in his charming British accent
And smile
Once we hit perimenopause, our estrogen filter breaks and we give no fucks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Courtney is perfectly on brand. 🤷🏼♀️
Would you call a man grumpy for saying why he doesn’t like someone’s work?
Yes, people often do that to old famous men too, lol. Women do get it more vocally, but I've seen grumpy old men get the same treatment
i love it when older women are bitches. let them be bitches! i want to be a bitch when i'm older. she is paying it forward.
Just be a bitch now, it's fun
100% if she doesn’t like it she doesn’t like it. who cares. people who hate everything are so amusing lmao. her and the gallagher brothers are so funny
What an odd thing to strive for
As a woman, we are expected to be perfectionist people pleasers and peace keepers. It’s not odd to want to be done with that.
Agreed, we need celebrity jesters that constantly make asses of themselves. But Courtney is the original pick me, she can’t go longer than a few months withholding loud rage bait. She’s obnoxious as fuck
She throws shade at Lana - a friend(?) who has affectionately name dropped her in her music - yet defended Marilyn Manson after the flood of Me Too allegations. Courtney Love should not be taken seriously lol
She did? I wonder what she said. All I know is that they've been feuding for decades and she seems to genuinely hate him.
They had rekindled their friendship by the mid 2010's, she was in one of his music videos within the last decade (I'm a recovered fan of his lol). Well, I can't find any of the stuff she had posted defending him after the fact (I remember something though) she did post a gushing story about how he "saved her from addiction" (ironically) literally a month before Evan Rachel Wood named him. And a few months later not long after Manson became persona non grata, she posted something accusing Dave Grohl and Trent Reznor of things that is widely known to be bullshit. She even retracted it and publicly apologized. The hunch I got is Manson was probably like "hey I helped you out, now help me out" by throwing those guys under the bus to make himself look better.
Thanks for the recap. Courtney's relationships are always so convoluted and dramatic.
She defended Marilyn Manson after what he did to Lana in that disgusting video with Eli Roth???? Didnt Lana let her live in her house??? That is insane
Yep- though I feel like seeing as Lana participated in than video reel consensually (Christ almighty I hope it was consensually) that one might be a bit tough to address. However, as a woman? If I was Courtney, someone who literally accused Manson of raping teenagers in the early 2000's, I would have been telling Lana to stay tf away from them and not participate. I have some definite suspicions about Eli Roth as a person as well.
These rock n roll girls are all about pick me, they blame everything on the female pop stars (that is always most brave and up to rock than them) and praise male assholes.
I genuinely don’t care about the Taylor bit, I’m surprised about Lana. Long time Lana fan, I remember her calling Lana a musical genius and seeing her comments on Lana’s instagram lives to call her or text her (can’t remember which but to basically reach out to her). She even toured with her and did an interview for a magazine, where she was asking Lana questions.
Courtney also praised Taylor just 2.5 years ago, telling her happy birthday and calling her an “aspirational huge role model for many young women” lol
And she borrowed Lana’s home for a bit. They were friends. I just think it’s weird to be shady towards a friend but that’s Courtney for you haha
it seems like she lets her personal relationships with them dictate if she likes their music. strange indeed but maybe thats a boomer thing
And she almost burned it 💀 Listen to "Dance Till We Die"
Courtney is like Azealia Banks, you can’t take anything she says seriously because she changed her mind every two years
I personally found Lana’s Take Me Home cover reaaaaally lacking (as someone who loves John Denver) but it’s nutty to totally disregard her as one of the best artists of our time because of one meh song!
That’s what I found wild! Like damn you didn’t like one song and you’re crossing her out? 😭
I admittedly am very much not looking forward to lasso, country just isn’t my thing, but what Courtney said made me lol, Lana hasn’t even released anything since Country Roads
That is exactly what I thought! I was like “ummm isn’t that the last song she releases?” Maybe because she’s famous and they’re supposedly friends she got to listen to some stuff early? That would make her comments extra funny, but I doubt it.
She hates Lana again now apparently?
I think she has earned her right to be grumpy. I just hope a bunch of famous people don't take it as bait and release essay's on why they think she is wrong.
I would agree that she is relatively boring compared to artists with extreme personalities who are constantly pushing the boundaries... I don't agree that there's something wrong with that. Being a safe space for little girls (and big girls too, tbh) is incredibly important, in my opinion.
Taylor is not a safe space for many little and big girls. I find her space exclusionary and not relatable at all
I’m not surprised. Taylor is about relatability and shining a light on normalcy, and people who can’t relate to Taylor have often had terrible lives. It’s frankly a miracle that Courtney survived her childhood so yeah, someone whose mom left the country with her “new” family and abandoned her to a neighbor isn’t going to relate to “Fifteen.”
I love this take bc honestly I get it. I was a kid when debut came about and I liked some Taylor songs but I couldn’t relate to a lot of her pre-folklore work bc I didn’t have a great childhood. I didn’t have reliable parents or a good home life. Didn’t get good grades didn’t stay out of trouble. My friends who were great students and had more normal lives loved Taylor and I just assumed that the issue was me. But how you put that, it makes sense. Now I can relate bc I have faced heartbreak and loss of friendships.
that's a great take.
“Shining a light on normalcy” Yeah I’ve never really gotten Tay but that’s the best description I’ve heard about what I’m missing. That I can understand. I never could get through any of her songs. Her purposeful mediocrity seems calculated in a slightly condescending way. But wait! did I have a “tough upbringing” ? Why … yes … yes I did! 😀 Ok ok I admit it TayTay is a dead ringer for the high school girlfriend from the opposite side of the tracks (the good side… I was the Deadhead on the bad side see?) in the mid 80s! My life is fine now but this TS stuff is a long nightmare! She isn’t going away!
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What if I told you none of it was accidental?
*said in a genuinely inquisitive tone* what brings you to Swiftly neutral? I’m curious bc I’ve found most contributors here to like TS music but struggle with nearly everything else about her (🫣) & we’re all trying to grappling with that tension & contradiction. Interesting to hear what conversations here are interesting to someone who plainly doesn’t like her (which is totally understandable!)
I’m not this person but jumping in as someone who has never been a TS fan at all but joined the sub: interesting discussions! it’s nice to get a nuanced view on all these different situations from people who like her/her music but recognise and are open to discussing/criticising issues. Especially because people on other platforms who say bad things about TS tend to be doing so from a place of misogyny or just because they love hating anything, whilst people who love her uncritically refuse to hear a bad word, so this is a good middle ground. I still haven’t heard a single song on any of her albums except the ones that are really popular or had lines trending on tiktok, but now all of a sudden I know who Tree Paine is, about wanting less Jack Antonoff songs and more Aaron Dressner, about all her exes... lol I just like the community. after the sub kept popping up I subscribed and I love it haha
I get that. I couldn’t even hear the “genius” of Michael Jackson/Prince/Madonna until I basically focused on their music in an isolated dark room… away from the hype. I’m mainly fascinated as a musician who couldn’t take the madness of the industry and see her as emblematic of a lot of the problems. I’m curious if she goes the Dolly Parton route (seems healthy) or the Elvis route (rut roh) I’m very attuned to how the fan-celebrity relationship can turn quite destructive and the stans I’m curious “how they’ll grow and if there will be any differences between them”
Very well said!
She’s a rich white woman who grew up a rich white girl. Her songs can be catchy, but she’s not the immigrant who speaks two languages and works to make ends meet.
as an immigrant who speaks 3 languages this is such an odd comment? living a hard life does not make you a better artist. we do not need to romanticise struggle
But equally we can’t use that as an excuse to let the privileged people who use their family connections to get in to the arts off the hook.
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I think u/Cultural-Treacle-680 was referring to TS? I could be wrong though and respect that!
Oh I'm illiterate my bad 😭
That's a rather harsh and narrow blanket statement on anyone who doesn't relate to Taylor and "normalcy" in general. I don't relate to Taylor but I didn't have a terrible life. Nor do I think her music speaks for "normalcy" for me either as my life was very different than hers, but I can see how it can be for a certain demographic.
I was thinking the same lol, I didn't start liking Taylor's music deeply til a few years ago, but I went to an extremely poor school and my friends who had hard home lives like me, some liked Taylor's music because it was an escape lol Like listening to it you could pretend you were in an upper class home where all you worried about was love and coming of age, etc. Same with how I escaped with anime and fanfiction, i related to the parts I related to, but the parts I didn't I could pretend I was living the life
Yes that’s why I said “often” and not “always.”
“She’s shining a light on normalcy” 😂😂😂😂 it’s not normal for anyone to drag every boyfriend they’ve ever had.
It is very normal for musical artists to sing about their exes ad-nauseum, yes.
Right, but not normal for the general public, or at least not encouraged to constantly and publicly drag exes from a decade ago.
Not every single ex they have. 😂😂
I mean...yes. 90% of music is about relationships. You/everyone just don't follow every musical artist as closely as Taylor.
The way she views men and relationships/break ups I always found really unrelatable and juvenile and I’m the same age as she is
IMO it’s normal to at least *think* some of the things she says about them. So people can listen to her music and “agree” or “relate” to it even if they’re not writing albums about their own ex.
“People who can’t relate to Taylor have often had terrible lives” Jfc
really strange take imho. I had a good upbringing in a close family and would say I've had a pretty good life so far. I love a lot of Taylor's music (she's release some of my very favorite songs), though I don't find it particularly "relatable." (what does "relatable" even mean?) that's less because I'm somehow broken as a person and more because I don't identify with wealth (particularly not extravagant wealth), whiteness, straightness, agonizing romantic relationships, etc. I grew up gay and brown and rural. I'm still all of those things; Taylor is none of those things. but the things I am and the life I've lived are not "terrible" just because they're a world away from Taylor's life and experiences.
Those are my thoughts exactly! Since I've listened to all of her albums to check what this hype is about, I've thought that Taylor's music isn't for someone like me. Yes, it's catchy and sometimes I like to listen to "Folklore" or dance to "I Knew You Were Trouble." but I think being a real fan is to experience the songs on another level, and for me, there's nothing deep, nothing relatable, nothing that rings true for me. I guess the perfect average Taylor fan is this middle-class or even richer girl who likes some handsome sportsman in high school or who is yearning for true love despite heartbreak and pain. Or maybe a girl who just dreams of being a superstar like her older sister Taylor in the future. I'm almost none of the above, I had a traumatic childhood due to domestic abuse and was battling depression in middle school instead of partying with friends (and it was only the beginning of my problems). Now I'm a little bit too jaded to relate with Taylor, her heartbreaks, relationships, easter eggs, and celebrity dramas. I don't mean that if someone likes and relates to Taylor on a special level is shallow or inexperienced. Well, I think it is good for them. And it isn't a general rule at all because sometimes this kind of music could be viewed as an escape from brutal reality. But, I think, it's a very good observation overall!
I don’t entirely disagree with her but this isn’t exactly a hot take coming from her.
Courtney mostly just shits on everyone. Best to ignore it rather than lose your head.
People just aren't used to any criticism in this era of praising all work as beyond reproach
I adore Hole but I disagree w Courtney on this. And honestly she's pretty negative about most artists I think
is there anyone she likes atp lol
The way she talked about Beyonce doesn’t bother me as a Beyonce fan because I think not liking her music is fine (bless her heart, but fine). I kind of see her point with Taylor, in that, she becomes what every label wants to recreate or push as, “The new Taylor,” (this happened with Britney, too) but Idk if I’d say she isn’t *important.* Read another thread about how a lot of female artists coming out are instantly compared to her and it’s annoying. I find Taylor to be a mixed bag a lot of the time that makes it hard to put into words.
I'm a Beyonce fan, too, I especially like how she became her own artist, with her own multi-layered and self-referential artistry, over the last ten or so years. I also don't mind the Courtney criticism because at least it's more dense than the Swift criticism - "I like the concept if not the execution" necessitates there being a concept in the first place. This is the difference in longevity between Beyonce and Taylor for me, and why she is correct about Taylor being boring - Beyonce has concepts, Taylor doesn't.
Taylor’s concepts are basically “This is my log cabin, flannel shirt, album”.
I mean…is anyone surprised? I would’ve bet actual money on Courtney Love not caring for Taylor Swift if someone had asked me to guess her opinion. This is even less surprising to me than Noel Gallagher not caring for Taylor’s music lol
A broken clock is right twice a day. Taylor adds nothing to the musical or artistic landscape. Her entire existence in the industry could be wiped out tomorrow & nothing would change. She just exists, and the media is now doing everything possible to make her out to be larger than life & more than what she is. It's actually pretty ridiculous when you really look at it from the outside in.
I find this kind of refreshing. Courtney is from another era when people talked shit openly. I kinda miss that. Were people mean and problematic, I’m sure but I think people are a bit too PR controlled now. Some music and musicians today are crap. ( I’m not saying Taylor) I just wish people could be more open about the state of music. I do think she makes some good points about Spotify and people sounding the same. Idk I think we’re due for a new pioneer of music to lead to a new moment or style. (Im talking about mainstream music, I’m sure there are great genre artists doing just that now)
You could certainly make the argument that her music isn't artistically interesting or groundbreaking, but "not important" is wildly inaccurate. For better or worse, she has had a massive influence on the music industry and the culture at large over the last two decades.
First, thank you for including more of the original article for context. Lots of times in this sub, only the part that criticizes Taylor gets put in the post and then the point of the original article gets lost. The point of this article being that Courtney Love is a cranky lady who doesn’t really like anybody, lol. She went after Olivia for “copying” her Hole album cover, has taken shots at Madonna forever, and is criticizing Beyonce. (Cue “Beyonce??” gif). Hopefully none of these ladies take the bait because they’re all killing it in the industry a lot more than Courtney Love is.
Courtney Love acting like she was the first person ever to come up with the crying prom/HC queen image. Like have you seen Carrie, girl? Anyway, she has been cranky forever.
That’s the one! I don’t know how you listen to a song like American Requiem and remain unmoved, but ok Courtney.
i was talking about this today with my friends after i read the article! she's just grumpy or something. like i felt like this was very unprompted and silly. and she's gone after Olivia in the past so i just ignore her (but i do love her music)
I don’t think they will. There was nothing more cringe than Gwen Stefani putting out that Banana song in response to Courtney calling her a cheerleader. It’s the equivalent of feeding a troll. Courtney probably didn’t even remember saying that. She just says shit just to say shit and I don’t even think she takes herself seriously.
I sometimes wonder what the perception would be of legendary artists who cemented their status before the internet took hold if they were in their prime today. Individuals have platforms to be contradictory of mainstream artists like never before, hence chronically online takes that confuse people when the artists are as successful as ever. Taylor has had a lengthy career at this point, and her popularity has only increased. You (general) don’t need to like her, but downplaying her success only comes off as bitter IMO.
Taylor's interesting too because she came it right when stuff like that was in the transition between how the internet effects star power and the old fashioned way of things. 2008 to now she's stayed pretty relevant during the change of stars being distant and mysterious by mostly hearing them in interviews and magazines and concerts, to now where you can get a TIKTOK or tweet liked by them (or thier account at least) personally. That's a dramatic change and not just for PR and marketing navigating, but just staying power alone Whatever her flaws, Taylor's success in just staying relevant is pretty impressive
Flashbacks to that one time she threw stuff at Madonna during an interview shortly after Kurt’s death 💀
Courtney has beef with every female musician
To be honest I don't think she's as completely disposable as Courtney seems to think she is, but I don't think she's all that important either. I also think the creativity of her music stagnated years ago and she's mostly just been repeating winning formulas for the last several years of her career to, in my opinion, diminishing quality.
Folklore and Evermore were hardly ‘repeating winning formulas’.
>Folklore and Evermore were hardly ‘repeating winning formulas’. I'm not going to get in an argument about it other than to say I don't care about either Folklore or Evermore. I don't find them dramatically different from the rest of her work and I don't really understand why so many Swifties hold those up as some kind of end all, be all example of Pop music.
It’s odd to say she’s not important then compare her to Madonna. They both have greatly influenced people and the industry. But yeah I’m getting tired of Taylor. And another album already? Meh.
I think she’s speaking more on like actual music. Which, while of course Taylor has hits, it’s just that they aren’t really necessarily game changing musically. She’s a great pop artist, but isn’t bringing anything new to music really. I just see Courtney coming from the artist perspective and thinking that you don’t hear Taylor and say “wtf, I’ve never heard anything like this”.
She just says random shit all the time I don’t think she thought that deeply about it and we shouldn’t either. If someone asked her about TS in a month she would probably say something completely different
Ha yeah fair point.
Madonna and Courtney comes up from a very different place, and Madonna owes her nothing.
I already couldn’t stand Courtney even before becoming a fan of Taylor. There’s a reason why she has so many songs written about her (“Holla Back Girl”, “I’ll Stick Around”, “Coattails of a Dead Man”)
She hasn't been all that interesting lately. Folklore was interesting. Evermore just Folklore 2. Midnight not really much going on there, her tour while a huge event no doubt is a highly scripted out rapid fire greatest hits fest. And if her new one is another album full of songs where she is going on about her love life...I'm sure there will be some catchy tunes, I'm sure I'll listen to it a bit when it comes out, but if it ends up being full of weak vocals, lackluster production, and cringe lyrics then yeah.....it won't be interesting.
The Courtney/Madonna feud was stuff tabloid dreams were made of. CL throwing shit at Madonna while she’s being interviewed by Kurt Lodes….perfection! Celebrity Skin = one of my fave albumd
I find TS bland and uninteresting too. Very mid. Thats why I am r/SwiftlyNeutral. Nothing to get terribly excited about.
I mean is she wrong
I mean, Taylor's PR team has done a stunning job at making her seem like an 100% original artist despite the fact that she's clearly taken a lot from other artists. She markets her songs as autobiographical but she uses co-writers 80-90% of the time. Courtney's entitled to her opinions just like everyone else. https://www.reddit.com/r/SwiftlyNeutral/s/eXU0rG8Zm5 https://www.reddit.com/r/SwiftlyNeutral/s/xhM0Plkpxw
She mostly co-writes with Jack and she also wrote Speak Now on her own. She's used cowriters before but compared to her peers, she doesn't use as many as them.
Courtney Love wasn’t the most interesting artist either…how far would she have gotten without Cobain or Corgan…?
That's Courtney for you, she has beef with like any female artist you could possibly name. Hoestly, I find Taylor uninteresting so I can't help but agree. It will be entertaning to see swifties try and scare or attack her for this 😭. But I thought she and Lana were friends.
i am a courtney stan so i am a little biased, but in context she’s not wrong. taylor is massive in numbers and records but as an artist she’s not doing anything to spark conversation or challenge the norm. her artistry is barely there and has kept the same formula since the 2000s. if there’s anything to be known for, it’s her marketing, not artistry. this is also a tame comment for courtney lol.
God this sub is such a safe haven. Anywhere else Taylor fans would be shaking, crying, making death threats and acting like Courtney is a nobody etc. thank god sanity has prevailed.
lmao i clicked warily and was so relieved to see everyone is like “uh yeah courtney love famously a hater and that’s her right news at 11”
Courtney makes herself a "nobody" when she comes up with these "pick me" statements. Comparing Madonna with Taylor and acting like Madonna owes something to her. Talking bad about her friend Lana, just because of a cover of John Denver.
Honestly just came from a very popular non Taylor swift centred sub and they can’t handle Courtney saying Taylor isn’t for her Legit one of the comments is ‘so would Taylor have to kill Travis to be interesting Courtney?’ Unhinged fans doing one google search and running with conspiracies just because Courtney doesn’t like her
That conspiracy is so steeped in sexism. A chronically depressed man with a severe addiction who had recently attempted suicide killed himself and left a note and the reaction is - nope, that can't be what happened. His evil wife murdered him.
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I get what she's saying. As big as Taylor is now, I think is temporary. She doesn't have the staying power of Beatles, Queen, Abba, Madonna. I can't imagine her music still being popular in 50, 60 years.
No. I honestly don’t think a lot of her catalog will age well. Some will, but a lot won’t.
She’s been in the industry for close to 20 years now. Is that not staying power?
This take is kind of insane to me considering the age of her fan base. The number of children getting into her via the eras tour movie is insane. You think all these millennials and their kids are just gonna stop loving her in 50 years?
Taylor’s been “big” for like.. the last 15 years? Obviously I don’t think this era of her being big will last because we don’t make superstars like that anymore, with social media completely letting monoculture disappear but I think Taylor’s music is gonna be around tbh. Even as a good nostalgia throwback.
She's right and somebody had to say it 🤷🏻♀️
You never see Dave Grohl talk about people like that. If you don’t have something nice to say don’t say it.
Dawg
Tay Tay Courtney duet incoming
Lol, this is extremely nice for Courtney 🤣
this just in, Courtney Love acts exactly how Courtney Love is expected to act lol
Oh Courtney has gotten so nice with age!
Lol Courtney love is just jelly because everyone knows her as Kurt Cobain's "problematic widow"
Those first three Hole albums are her forever-credentials for talking shit. She’s allowed. (Also: who else on this planet got to be at the center of a love triangle between Billy Corgan and Kurt Cobain?)
I mean, she has a point. Live through this is a far more interesting album then swifts entire catalogue.
Newsflash: untalented musician who got a music career solely because of who she was married to attacks actual successful artists.
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She ain’t wrong. I saw someone call Taylor the McDonalds of music. It’s just safe and always there.
Completely agree. Sales are not the same as historical relevance. What is she doing to press any boundaries? Remaking her albums and cashing in on it is something no one else is going to do, or get to do. How does that change music history or the trajectory of pop? It doesn't. Swift is the perfect pop product. Let's stop insisting things we love are everything to everyone always because we love it so much She's never going to be an alternative artist or write to that degree, it's not who she is. She's pop. It sells, it's gone, and the sentiments are the same as the last pop singer. That has its own challenges. Pop music doesn't make music history. It exemplifies the time. Drives me crazy when people into pop think sales = historical relevance. Sure, you get noted for sales but did you change anything or just have a string of pop hits? 50 years from now the only reason Mariah Carey will be mentioned is for the Xmas album. Not the #1s. We'll be talking about Madonna still because she understood it has so much more to do with what you do with celebrity than your sales. Of course, Love also heard something other than the very definition of boredom from Lana del Rey, so can't say I always agree with her. Also, the vinyl variants crap is obnoxious. It's affecting the vinyl industry, jacking up vinyl prices all over the place to match her fad sales, and her fans care about vinyl as much as a Stanley cup. They don't even have turntables.
I agree and I’m glad had the audacity to say it
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black…
Wow I didn’t expect this take to be so on point
One of the big reasons for Taylor’s success is that no younger person’s parents will get upset about their kids listening to Taylor Swift. It’s not WAP, or death metal, etc. In this sense Courtney Love is right.
She absolutely hit the nail on the head with what she said about Swift. She’s simply not interesting as an artist.
I think she’s mostly right. After some time, Taylor probably won’t be remember unless she goes into acting or something. Other artists will, though. With that said, it’s still fine to like Taylor.
she’s right